Heated Rivalry Episode 4: Six Months Later Deep Dive w/ Devante Senior, Harrison & Ashley Iris Gill!

[00:00:00]Like Connor and Hudson, the way they look at each other, like >> they do 80% of the work right there.

[00:00:05]>> Yeah, I saw a lot of theories that were saying it might have been a metaphor because Shane is kind of ignoring Miles behind him like he is there, but he's so glossed out in the eyes.

[00:00:15]>> Upset initially because they were playing the other version and I was like, "Hang on a minute. I thought my song was in it."

[00:00:20]>> That is real. Okay, I love that.

[00:00:23]>> Period.

[00:00:28]Welcome to another episode of Top Five.

[00:00:31]And this week is a special edition of Top Five because if you're watching this in real time, it's June 12th. And if you're not, then it is at least around June 12th, which means it is the sixmonth anniversary of episode 4 of Heated Rivalry, right? Oh my gosh. And uh the brilliant >> say Tyra >> the brilliant episode that literally changed the trajectory of the whole series. There is you know before episode 4 and there's after episode 4 and you know it's where the fandom went kind of astronomical where you guys like all became obsessed and crazy about this show like we did.

[00:01:11]>> I was like I love you guys.

[00:01:13]>> Let me first I was I was trying to get in my bit Nicole. I was trying to get into my bit.

[00:01:19]because we started a whole podcast about it. Um, but yeah, guys, this is an extra special episode of Top Five. And with that, we have like some extra special interviews where you guys will be hearing from some people connected to the show, an exclusive interview for you guys, which I'm really excited about.

[00:01:38]First, girl, we know we'll we'll we'll get into that. Let's talk about it. Um, but first off, this is why I'm wearing a new like tuna melt shirt. And this is why we've got Tyra for the first time ever and a shade shirt.

[00:01:52]>> And a shaded Ilia shirt. One, two, two, one. Listen, >> I never thought I'd see the day I to >> little baby has grown up. She's grown up. Listen, I'm I'm I'm in there with y'all, okay? My buying dollars, too, are going to this damn show, I tell you.

[00:02:10]>> Yes. Um, before we get into it, obviously we could not do an episode 4 special edition without a tuna melt that both of us made.

[00:02:21]>> You like tuna melt?

[00:02:23]>> Happy six months to episode 4.

[00:02:26]>> Yay. Cheers.

[00:02:27]>> We have our tuna melt, our Well, I have sugar-free ginger ale and vodka on behalf of Shane.

[00:02:34]>> Exactly. A little merging of the two. A little Moscow mule, you know, merging the two boys together.

[00:02:39]>> Yeah. Exactly. solidarity.

[00:02:40]>> Oh, right. I didn't even think about the vodka being >> That's why I'm literally That's why I said we should do it.

[00:02:47]>> So glad you're dead. You're so right.

[00:02:49]But yes, cheers. The greatest episode.

[00:02:53]>> Listen, the turning point. Happy six months.

[00:02:56]>> Let's talk a little bit of like why this episode in particular hit differently because you and I have always talked about this being the turning point of heated robbery. And I guess for a six episode season, so short when you think about it, in contrast, um, episode four is the halfway point. So of course, maybe that would be the time when a shift would happen for these characters and also just for the show as a whole.

[00:03:22]So for you, >> why did this hit so different? Why did this hit? Why does this hit different?

[00:03:29]>> I mean, let me count the ways. As Tony Braxton said, I >> listen, >> I think, you know, we've talked about this, but the moment that montage started off and we were able to see the progression of Shane and Ilia just not like, hey, we're just like texting each other to hook up kind of thing. I think that was the turning point for me where I was like, oh, they're like bantering and flirting and wishing each other like a good summer and like have fun in like friendly Russia. And it was just like, wait a minute.

[00:04:04]>> I know he's But I love it cuz it's like he feels comfortable enough to like do that, >> but it was like, okay, you're noticing all these moments at the beginning of the episode where it's like it's not just them hooking up or coming together in hotel rooms. You can tell they genuinely like each other's company and just like hearing from each other. And even if that's on a rival level or even on a personal level, you know that it felt different. And so I just remember the adrenaline rush that I got when I first started watching that episode that I was like, >> I am a 6 a.m. in my bedroom and I was like, this is this is too much. But also, >> I am locked in for the next, you know, like 40 minutes or whatever it was. And it was because of that overarching shift between Shane and Ilia that we were able to see that Jacob portrayed so well, right?

[00:04:56]>> Yeah, he did. And you know, like thinking about it and looking back on it now, I think what episode 3 really did in momentum of like bringing us to episode 4 was to show us how quickly relationships can change and progress.

[00:05:12]Um because Kip and Scott's relationship progresses very quickly and you know we are at a we are at a stalemate when we get to the end of episode two between Shane and Ilia and then when we get to episode 4 they picked right back up >> um without missing a beat but we have missed a beat as viewers. We don't know what's happened in the interim, but it just really further reinforces that relationships change and progress very quickly. And I kind of love that like thinking back on it now. And I think that there's so many key things that happened in this episode. Um, and you know what Jacob did brilliantly is he sort of changed styles like scenes became more stylized. when we talk about the club scene and that fabulous needle drop moment that we get from Harrison and I think that you know signaled that there was a shift that this episode was different than the previous three that you know we are moving into a different sort of territory with not only these characters but how this show will progress moving forward. Um, >> yeah. And I think what was >> Oh, well, I was gonna say what was interesting is like to me the montage of episode 4 was kind of also a signal of like goodbye for the audience because the montage of episode 4 was very um similar to what we'd seen in episode one and two of like the fastpaceness of their relationship.

[00:06:38]>> But then after that montage, episode 4 is very slow. When you talk about timing that we're going through in that episode, it isn't years the way that episode one and two are, right? It is like we are sitting with Shane and Ilia because it is our time as an audience to sit and understand where they are as individual people and where they are as potentially a couple and where they are intimately. Yeah. And so we're we're only going through like a few months of time after that montage of like, you know, where Ilia is and where Shane is.

[00:07:14]And then when they get together at Ilia's house, it's like, okay, like >> clearly things have like become more intimate and there's more feelings involved, even if they aren't willing to express that. And then once they are and that scares away Shane, it's like, okay, well then we have to see the the specific beats that get us to Rose and then get us to the club and then eventually get us to episode five and six. So, I just felt like the Jacob did such a good job of bridging the beginning of the season to this episode because this episode specifically was that turning point in like time for us and >> yeah, it was the emotional turning point and like you said, you mentioned the beats and there's so many of them because at the top when you get that montage that is the beat of like just unbridled lust between two people and then you see the beat when We get into tuna melt scene where that is like intimacy and on Shane's part intimacy denied on Ilia's part intimacy explore explored and then you get to the club scene and that is just devastation between the two of them because the emotional intimacy has been severed at that point. Um, and I think that those beats are the reason that because we went on a journey with them. Like this episode felt like what a lot of seasons of television shows feel like where you're going on an emotional arc with a character. Um, >> and this just happened in one episode.

[00:08:46]And one episode that you always like to say is the shortest episode of the entire season. And it did so much heavy lifting to like set up five and six. But to go through the high high of the montage to the very low low of the club scene is devastating in a way. Truly, it it really does take you on an emotional journey. And I love like later on when we get to our fandom segment, we'll hear Alicia talk a little bit about that. Um, but it's just so interesting how you truly are with them the entire step of the way. And I think that a lot of in a lot of ways this for some could be the most engaging episode because you really do feel so much and it does kind of take you back to a time personally of like you being 24 years old and going through something similar because it's that visceral of a feeling honestly.

[00:09:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I I feel like why the to your point like especially at the end um >> why this was so devastating and I think hit us so hard is that you had episode one where Ilia was the one kind of left on the rooftop in Vegas right after they made out and said goodbye >> and then episode two Shane left but he was kind of the one that was left emotionally right like he was like we didn't even kiss and like mhm that's not what I wanted.

[00:10:11]>> He was told to leave essentially.

[00:10:13]>> Yeah.

[00:10:13]>> Yeah. Exactly. And then you have the end of episode 4 where you see the both of them.

[00:10:19]>> So it was like Jacob did such a good job of being like we see how Ilia is when he's left. We see how Shane is when he's kind of left. And then you see how both of them when they're both like emotionally wanting more from each other but are both kind of like quote unquote left at the altar in a way like there's no ending, you know? And it's like, and so I think that's what hits so hard.

[00:10:40]It's like, oh, this is the first time I'm able to see both of them in action, slow motion, looking at each other in the club with this look of longing and yearning and hurt >> that like only one of them had suffered through in the other episodes. And now I'm seeing how both of their emotions are affecting them.

[00:10:59]>> And I felt like that hit us so hard where it was like, oh, they're so what?

[00:11:04]You both can see this. Just look it together. And so it just was like beautiful to see that.

[00:11:09]>> Yeah. And I think with like that scene in particular, you describing it. I feel like that is the moment where fandom became obsessed with this. And I think it really spoke to something very human.

[00:11:20]And I think that's credit to the actors and credit to Jacob um and credit to Rachel. But yeah, I think that was when we reached obsession levels on this fandom because after that, you could not go a day without someone noticing something about this scene, without someone talking about the club scene, without hearing Harrison's song.

[00:11:44]Like, it just would not leave you alone, to be honest.

[00:11:48]>> Yeah, we're so excited to really dive in. Um, but obviously this was such >> a big deal for the fandom if you were watching the show at this time. So, >> it was such a big deal. I mean, that we singled out this episode specifically and was like, we need to do a podcast about it because it really was for us a turning point. Um, and we know for a lot of you. So, >> listen, thank you for listen, we're taking this ride together.

[00:12:17]>> So, here we go. Let's dive in.

[00:12:20]>> Let's dive in.

[00:12:21]So, when we're thinking about episode 4, one of the things that I know stuck out to Tyra and I is how the tension between Shane and Ilia, their world kind of opened up a little bit. And when we think about that, we have to start with the characters, of course, with Rose and her bestie Miles, who brought this new dynamic to both the show and Shane um and his feelings toward Ilia. Right. It did. And listen, one thing that we know about episode 4 in that club scene, there are new obstacles for Ilia to overcome when it comes to the love of his life, Shane Hollander. And you know, Rose is one. But then what like leads him to Rose, he sees Devonte Senior, Miles himself, standing at that bar and his world just collapsed. So, we had a great conversation with Devonte Senior in exclusive because his first interview that he's given about episode 4.

[00:13:19]>> Crazy, crazy, >> it's insane. But >> we can bring it to you first.

[00:13:27]>> Listen, maybe we can bring it to you guys first.

[00:13:31]floor. Um, we're really excited because as many of you, and we told Devonte this before we recorded, like there has not been a day since December 12th that we haven't seen that man's face in that club scene when that needle drop happens when Ilia clocks him and is like scanning for Shane. And so, we were really excited to talk to him about his experience filming and then Miles as a character. So, >> let's here's our conversation with Devonte Senior.

[00:13:59]>> I need a beer. I bet you do. Did you watch the game, too?

[00:14:02]>> Yeah, I watched a few clips on Rose's phone.

[00:14:04]>> Well, we want to welcome Devonte Senior to Top Five. Thank you for joining us.

[00:14:10]>> Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It's awesome.

[00:14:13]>> Yes. Um well, we have been really excited to to talk to you because obviously we're doing an episode on episode 4 and your role was very pivotal to uh this episode and obviously how the story moves forward. But I'm very curious just looking back, how did you hear about Heated Rivalry and what was your audition process like?

[00:14:35]>> Uh, it was like the same as any other like process. So like my team will send me the like project in my email. Um, I took a look at the material. It looked awesome and I taped uh it was just one audition self tape from home and I think maybe like a week or two later it was uh an offer from the audition.

[00:14:56]>> Oh wow.

[00:14:56]>> Oh wow. Yeah. So just so just one audition. Yeah. Yeah. Very I got very lucky in that sense. Yeah.

[00:15:01]>> Oh yeah. That's awesome. So So prior to the start of filming, were you familiar with the books? And guess followup question. If you were, did you sort of base your character around any of the source material or was the like script the Bible and you just kind of went from there?

[00:15:19]>> I didn't know anything like I I know about the smut world and I know it's like absolutely like cold. like every like people are going crazy for like now like now more than ever. But I had no idea about the book at all. Like I >> Yeah. Like when I got the audition like I I did my research. I was like, "Okay, so it's based on a book." Um and like I kind of just like did my Googles, but I I didn't know anything about it prior.

[00:15:42]So when I did book the role, I kind of just um used the script and what they had given me. I I didn't read any of the source material. Yeah.

[00:15:51]>> Wow.

[00:15:52]Did you know that this show had such a kind of passionate I mean now it's hit another stratosphere but even at the time did you know that there was such a a passionate fan base around these characters and like what was that like stepping into a a show where you knew that there was this like built-in kind of cult audience?

[00:16:11]>> Yeah. I mean I had like I had no idea like I was genuinely like seeing how much it blew up and then like >> wait no genuinely. Yeah. It was it was really like really really a a rare occurrence. Also, um I I didn't even know that there was like a a cult following of the book before the show even came out. So, it was just like a a full surprise to me. I just thought, okay, like this this is like a a bit of a popular book. There like are a lot of popular books out there, but I had no idea that it was like as cult as as it is. Yeah.

[00:16:47]>> Wow. That's interesting. So, >> yeah. Yeah. I I was I was blindsided 100% 100%. Caught off, Brian for sure.

[00:16:55]>> So, when you finally get to the fan response, I know and we'll talk that about that a little bit later, but I know that I had to have your head spinning.

[00:17:01]>> Excuse me.

[00:17:04]>> It definitely did. It was It was a interesting moment for me and my my close friends and my family. It was it was like a running joke that like it just it came out of nowhere like they were scrolling and they they kept seeing me like every two seconds and I had I had no idea what was happening but it was awesome. I loved it. Yeah.

[00:17:20]>> What was your mom's response to this?

[00:17:23]>> She called me. So like here in Toronto CP24 that's like our news like here. Um and she called me. Why not CP24?

[00:17:33]>> I'm just as confused as you are. But she's very Yeah, she's very supportive.

[00:17:38]Um, and she's, yeah, she's loved, um, my artistic journey and she's been there for me, so she's super happy. But >> it's, yeah, it's funny for parents cuz that was her like moment to realize that it's blowing up, not social media, but it's it's her waking up and she's watching the news as she does. So, she's Yeah. She's calling. She's like, "Why are you on the news? I see your scene on the news." It's very funny >> to a parent, that is how they know their child has made news. Okay.

[00:18:05]>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, she's like literally >> I've been working forever.

[00:18:10]>> She's calling all her friends and like showing them the clip on on the news.

[00:18:14]It's very cute.

[00:18:15]>> It's so sweet.

[00:18:16]>> That is Oh my god, that's super sweet.

[00:18:18]So, I want to get back into the the role particularly. So, we see that like as uh Rose and Shane's relationship grows that he becomes part of Roses and Miles inner circle. And so I want to know for you, how did you interpret Miles and his relationship with Shane going into the club scene? Um because Rose suggested later on in the season that you know Miles was attracted to Shane. So So did you play that play up that in the in the scene?

[00:18:47]>> Yeah. So I think like when I was doing my prep um I was aware that they kind of all were friends like he was aware of who I was and you know like these two are in a relationship. So, there's kind of like a closeness that they've all developed. Um, but at the same sense, yes, he did find Shane attractive. Um, >> but I don't think I think uh it was kind of supposed to be like playful, not in a sense of like he's trying to like >> like that's his best friend. He's not going to try to like step over to >> Exactly. Um, and I think there's like different dynamics that like uh some friend groups have or certain friend groups are okay with like a closeness that they have when they're in situations like a club where they're dancing and they're you know they're they're turned or whatever the case may be. So there's just like a close-knit bond that they kind of all had.

[00:19:34]>> Mhm. Yeah. And that's how I took it to be honest. I was like I like me and Nicole talked about this and I said listen they're young and they're rich and they're in their 20s.

[00:19:42]>> Exactly. And they're vibing. They're having a good time.

[00:19:47]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:19:49]>> Exactly. I was young and in my 20s once I wasn't ready for I was I was having a good time.

[00:19:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Yeah. Like when you're out with your friends and and like these are your genuine friends like you guys are going to get a little close. You guys are going to might feel a little something. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:20:04]>> Absolutely. You're going to vibe.

[00:20:06]Exactly.

[00:20:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw a lot of theories that that were saying it might have been a metaphor because Shane is kind of ignoring Miles behind him. Like he is there, but he's so glossed out in the eyes.

[00:20:18]>> Yeah.

[00:20:18]>> That he's kind of not even really seeing that he's behind him. So, it's not that like he's uncomfortable or like, you know, it's just kind of like he's he's so glossed over and the way that the lights are hitting and he's and Rose is there, but he's not really looking at Rose. It's like it might it may or may not be a metaphor of Miles being behind him. And that's his sexuality that he's kind of keeping closed off. And then Rose is kind of in front of him. That's what I saw.

[00:20:44]>> Ask Jacob. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:20:47]You got to ask Jacob. He's a genius.

[00:20:49]Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know.

[00:20:51]Something wrong with Dante. Honestly, >> I don't know. Did you Did you see any of that?

[00:20:56]>> No. Devonte, can I tell you? We have watched this scene 51 million times. You just brought a new dynamic. I'm like, I'm going back and watching it.

[00:21:05]>> Yes.

[00:21:07]But well the fans well the fans genuinely I they brought that to me. So like when I rewatched it I was like yeah you know what the lights are hitting and it's slow and like with the with this particular song choice that they chose and if you look back at the way that Hudson plays it he's like so checked out >> and I can I'm like okay you know what I can kind of I can see that like that metaphor kind of coming to life.

[00:21:28]>> So I don't know maybe yeah I don't know.

[00:21:31]Jacob, Jacob definitely is very intentional, I will say, with everything that he does.

[00:21:37]>> So, we did do a lot of takes and we did a lot of different takes.

[00:21:42]>> So, I think that's also important to note.

[00:21:44]>> Um, we always were trying different things. There were some moments where maybe I was a little bit closer, maybe I was a little bit further away >> and things like that. So, whatever they choose at the end, like with the editing process and things like that, whatever creative decision they made was 100% intentional.

[00:22:03]>> Oh, that's good to know because I've heard Jacob talk about like his sets are usually pretty quick when he's filming, but to know that you guys like had time to like explore different takes and different ways of >> I don't I don't know what the other days were like, but that that day that we shot the club scene, >> it was we did a lot of takes. A lot of dancing. A lot of dancing. So, and was was the was that club scene in general all filmed in one day?

[00:22:28]>> It was. It was.

[00:22:29]>> Wow.

[00:22:30]>> That's incredible cuz so many beats.

[00:22:34]>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's very very cool how they're able to to do all of that.

[00:22:41]>> Yeah. I was curious going back to that scene though, like just given that you did different um I guess versions of it, were you shocked or I I don't know if you've had a chance or not to see the reaction that fans have had to you dancing on Shane with Rose. Like >> were you shocked on how fans were reacting based off of like the original intention or direction that you received when filming it? I I definitely was, but uh coming into it, I kind of knew that the scene would be a little bit controversial uh just because of what the story line is and uh Shane is hiding his sexuality and it's a literal man dancing behind him. So on paper, it's like, okay, well, if if this gentleman is behind you and you're you're in the closet, wouldn't you kind of want to leave? Um, which is again why I say uh it's important to note that we did do a lot of takes and we did do a lot of >> the obvious takes and then we did a lot of kind of the um pushing the envelope takes. So whatever was upon a product was definitely intentional. Yeah. But I I Yeah, I uh >> I definitely was was ready to see and I kind of knew what was what was coming.

[00:24:01]Yeah. sauce was going to be.

[00:24:03]>> Yes. Yes. I I did know.

[00:24:04]>> They had some They had some things to say on all different sides spectrum.

[00:24:08]>> Devonte, take me back to that day. What was the atmosphere and the energy like on set when you guys were filming the sequence?

[00:24:15]>> It was awesome. Um, we filmed it in an actual I don't remember the name and I should because it's a pretty popular club here in um Toronto or Ontario, but I don't remember the name. I'm sorry.

[00:24:27]But um it was it was awesome. The lights, everything was was legit. Like the lights were there. It was a big club. Like we had the BG the background there. Everybody was dancing. There was actual music that we had going on to make sure that we actually felt like we were lively in the space. Um and yeah, everybody was really welcoming. Um Hudson and Sophie were were very kind.

[00:24:49]We all hit it off very quickly and yeah, it was awesome. The energy was was was super high.

[00:24:57]>> That's so cool. Was was this just given cuz I know you also filmed um in episode 4 you all were at the h the arena the hockey arena too and then you were also at the restaurant I think >> or maybe that is like the beginning of this like the beginning of the bar scene was with you and >> Oh yes yes so that's also the club um that's just yeah it was just like a little booth that they had in the club >> so that was all shot in in the in the same day >> all of it. Okay, that's what I was going to ask. That is >> I just feel like all the coverage that you all had to do for that club scene is I don't understand.

[00:25:33]>> Very Yeah, it's often very long days on set um Well, it does depend. If it's a easier scene, like a smaller set, then it might be a little bit quicker, but something like the club scene had so many intricate details that it needed >> a lot of coverage. Yeah.

[00:25:48]>> So, what was the shooting time like for that?

[00:25:50]>> Oh, man. Uh, I I think I I got on set at like 11:00 and I was there like late.

[00:25:59]Like it might have been like an 11 hour day maybe.

[00:26:02]>> Yeah. Wow.

[00:26:03]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:05]>> That's long.

[00:26:06]>> Something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:07]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:26:08]>> Yeah.

[00:26:10]>> Was there a sense though when you all were filming this that this was going to be I mean it really was the turning point of the show. It kind of kicked the show into another gear. Like, >> did you feel that?

[00:26:22]>> Um, like watching it or when I was filming it >> or when you were filming it?

[00:26:27]>> When I was filming it, no. I I had no I genuinely feel like and I want to know like I'm going to ask the other cast members if it was just me cuz I like again I feel blindsided. I'm like I'm like am I dumb? Did I miss something?

[00:26:39]Like should I have known that this is going to like turn into what it turned into? Because like I blinked and it was like the biggest thing out which was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was I was thrown through a loop genuinely. Yeah.

[00:26:51]Yeah. Yeah. So, no, I I had no idea. All I knew is like I love to act and like everybody was so kind and we had like an amazing time and whatever had came out of it was like that experience was enough for me. And then luckily for us like there was more and that's amazing when that does happen. But like for the most part for for us it's kind of just about that part. Like that memory was was enough for me. Oh, I'm glad your experience on set and filming was such a positive one. That's really good to hear. Yeah, that's really good to hear.

[00:27:22]Um, so Devonte, I need you to settle a fan debate um that's been going that's been going on in the fandom for quite some time. So, you know, when we get that shot of you at the bar signaling, >> what's going on there? Because there's been so many theories. You know, some read it as he's flirting with Ilia or he's trying to provoke Ilia. Me personally, I thought he was just the bartender.

[00:27:47]>> I thought he was signaling the bartender.

[00:27:51]>> And I think I think >> because you know on on a prior episode I I think Miles is Michael B. Jordan right before >> I know you think Miles is Michael B.

[00:27:59]JORDAN. I KNOW.

[00:28:00]>> I'm thinking I'm thinking he's signaling at Ilia cuz they all are like in the same age. Like he knows who I thought that initially but then when I like go back and look at I was like was he just s bartender? That's what I like init That's what I like ultimately took from it.

[00:28:17]>> Yeah, that's fair.

[00:28:19]>> But what is it?

[00:28:21]>> Wait, you listen. Who is right, Devonte?

[00:28:24]>> I mean, do I have to answer? I'd rather I'd rather keep it. You do.

[00:28:29]>> I'd rather keep it a mystery. No, in all in all honesty, um he he's just flirting. He was she was just trying to get some. Honestly, >> I knew it. I knew it.

[00:28:40]>> So, uh yeah. I'll do that cuz I was >> listen Miles likes to Miles likes to party. He likes to flirt. He likes to talk to people. He He is very very very very open.

[00:28:53]>> So when he saw him, he was like, "Okay, all right. Let me see what's what's going on here." Yeah. Um I did a lot of takes with that one as well where I was just playing with the way that I was trying to uh interact with Ilia. So, one of it was like a a simple head nod. Then I did the hand gesture or I might have like >> uh said like a hey or like a what's up like you know I was just kind of like uh improvising and yeah that's the take that I chose but it was 100 100% just trying >> to she was trying >> he was trying to see what's going on.

[00:29:22]Yeah. Trying to see what's going on.

[00:29:23]>> Period. Look.

[00:29:24]>> Yeah.

[00:29:26]>> M going to be like Miles in my next life.

[00:29:30]>> You got to you got to live your life.

[00:29:32]Shoot your shot at whatever or whatever is close by. You never know what's going to happen.

[00:29:35]>> And that is a word. Come >> over. That's funny.

[00:29:40]>> What? What did Michael Jordan say? You miss 100% of the you don't take >> and you don't. Listen, we need to we need to we need to start living by that, Nicole.

[00:29:49]>> Yeah, that's so funny.

[00:29:50]>> More than we already are.

[00:29:53]>> Well, I'm just listen. I'm just glad that my read of that was right cuz your look the look you gave was so perfect. I was like, "Oh, he >> he wanted initially, but then I was like, oh no."

[00:30:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so It's so interesting uh >> for us because again, we do so many takes and we at least for me, I like to try so many different things. So, I'm always curious to see uh when the final final product comes out, what they end up choosing because that does often change how things are interpreted. Um so, yeah, it's it's very interesting.

[00:30:26]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's often a surprise for the actor as well. It's like, "Oh, okay. Look, they went with that choice that I made." That's very interesting.

[00:30:35]>> We never entire dynamic.

[00:30:36]>> Exactly. It can.

[00:30:38]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:40]>> And how do you feel about the choices that they chose? The >> I'm happy with it.

[00:30:44]>> Yeah. Jacob Jacob, he's that guy. He knows what he's doing. Yeah.

[00:30:48]>> Yeah. He's he's brilliant. From like just outside looking in and observing what he has created, just from top to bottom. It's It's brilliant. It truly is.

[00:30:56]>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:58]>> Um, looking back though, just like to wrap up kind of the the club scene, um, like is there a moment looking back that you remember vividly or that was just like I don't know, something that you'll always look back on with fondness because again, you filmed this all in one day. You had a couple of beats that you had to actually hit or film in those moments. Like, is there something that stuck out a little bit?

[00:31:24]Um, not necessarily, but for some reason what keeps replaying in my head is so I have the two drinks and I'm bringing bringing it over to them and I'm I'm kind of like dancing on my way over. For some reason, that's the only thing that's in my brain like from that day.

[00:31:38]It's like, okay, we're going to take it from the top. And then they give me cuz it's like continuity. So, it has to be the same exact drinks and it has to be like how much we drank the same like the same level on the glass. So, they hand it over and they're like, "Okay, action." And I'm dancing over. I'm dancing over. I'm dancing over. Okay, cut. And then I have to go back. They give me back the drinks. They check the level. Okay, action. And I'm dancing.

[00:31:59]Like I just for some reason there's like a loop of me dancing over. I'm going over their shoulder and whatever. Like I don't know. That's that's the only thing I can remind you for some reason.

[00:32:07]>> Devonte, I have a question on that.

[00:32:09]>> Yeah, >> because Hey, so I've like extraed a few times and times they've told us to dance. There's no music. So was there music when y'all were dancing? Cuz the way Rose is dancing is different than the beat you have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think there was music, but it is all kind of a blur right now. But I I think there was music. It might just be in my head, though.

[00:32:33]>> Listen, you had you had your own internal rhythm. And that's >> I want to say yes.

[00:32:39]>> One, two step. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:41]>> One step. Listen to I've seen I've seen the videos of you dancing. Beautiful dancer. Oh, you have that you are. I have. Listen, we've done some research.

[00:32:49]Yeah, I have. Beautiful.

[00:32:52]dancing and I'm just >> I haven't danced in a while, but it'll definitely that's always a part of me.

[00:32:56]Yeah.

[00:32:56]>> Yeah. You I and I think you need to bring it back just to someone looking at it because it was amazing. I'm just like this man is a triple threat.

[00:33:05]>> Thank you all singing as well.

[00:33:08]>> Oh my goodness. Embarrassing. You guys are embarrassing me.

[00:33:13]>> We won't we won't >> I appreciate that.

[00:33:17]>> Of course. Of course. Um, but tell me, has the response to the episode changed anything for you since it aired? I mean, we've talked about how viral it's been and yeah, how much feedback you've gotten. So, just tell me about the experience.

[00:33:31]>> It's been honestly awesome. Um, again, like I had no idea that this was going to happen, so I'm still kind of like getting used to it.

[00:33:39]>> I'm not I'm not really used to like, you know, like um people recognizing me from the show, like seeing myself on social media. That's kind of something that I'm trying to get used to. But the reception has been amazing and everybody's so kind. And in terms of what's next, it has brought a lot of opportunities to me, but I am still auditioning and trying to get that foot in the door.

[00:34:00]It's definitely still a journey for a lot of actors, >> but um it has it has brought some things. So, we're keeping our fingers crossed. Yeah.

[00:34:08]>> But it was a sweaty blood.

[00:34:10]>> Miles, don't be terrible.

[00:34:12]>> I have no problem watching sweaty bars.

[00:34:14]So that was our amazing conversation with Devonte Senior. What a lovely human being, an amazing actor and someone so who is supremely talented. Um and next we're going to talk about the needle drop of 2025 you guys from that club scene alone. We are talking to none other than Harrison, the man behind all the things she said. Listen, it is it is an iconic moment. will be an iconic moment forever. And we get into that a little bit with him. Like he is now etched in pop culture forever, Nicole.

[00:34:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's crazy. He had the needle drop of the needle drop. Like we thought we had the needle drop and then he needle dropped and we were like, "Oh, wait.

[00:34:59]>> Inception.

[00:35:00]>> Yeah, exactly. It's inception of the needle drops." And so just talking to him about what that day looked like because what I thought was interesting is that where he lives in the UK, it wasn't even out yet. I forget that the show is not it's like globally released at the same time and so it's so interesting to hear what his experience was just not even be able to like experience a show in the country where he was living at the same time. So >> exactly >> love talking to him about this episode.

[00:35:27]Um >> great conversation.

[00:35:31]>> We are top five heater robbery podcast.

[00:35:34]I'm Tyra Nicole.

[00:35:36]>> I'm Nicole >> and we are here with Harrison you guys.

[00:35:39]And I'm Harrison.

[00:35:41]>> Yes.

[00:35:43]>> Appreciate that.

[00:35:45]>> It's like preschool all over again.

[00:35:48]>> Really?

[00:35:49]>> Your hand.

[00:35:51]>> Um, getting into episode four, I know you've talked so much about um kind of how you got your song or how Jacob and team reached out to you to use your song. But just from a process standpoint, really curious because what does that look like when someone reaches out to you to use your song? Because sometimes a song can be used for 15 or 20 seconds and kind of barely be remembered in a scene, but in your case, I mean, you had the needle drop of the last, I would say, seven months and used in such a big part of the scene. How much did you know about that going in?

[00:36:25]>> Uh, I didn't know what he was planning on doing uh with the song. I just agreed for him to do it. It wasn't like I he obviously had the vision. Uh, but I don't think that that was his original vision. Uh, from some of the interviews that I've seen, the idea of him um, I have to find it, but the idea of him swapping out the songs was a later thing. It wasn't something that I think was originally going to be like that. I just I think it just worked. So, um, because they reached out quite late in the series for me cuz obviously I had the invitation I think late September, October from my memory. uh you know and then so so and obviously with with it being dropped in December >> you know it's not that long really is it?

[00:37:10]>> I wanna I want to go back to December 12 of last year which was 24 hours after the episode dropped episode 4 dropped um and the like we talked about the song became this massive needle drop. So tell me like what was the 24 hours like after that raining it back into what we're talking about >> in days and weeks leading up to it.

[00:37:29]Listen I'm trying to I'm a journalist. Harrison. Okay. Well, >> you respect that.

[00:37:37]>> We're going to get back though. We'll get back.

[00:37:40]>> I I just um had uh a lot of messages as you could imagine. Imagine the whole internet discovers who you are overnight. And then I went cuz I went up to my lounge. I said this before, but and I put my phone down on the side and everyone kept texting me about this heat rivalry thing. I was like, I don't even know what that is. But then but then I remembered but I remembered that I agreed for the song to come out beforehand, right? And obviously in England it's not out so it's not like I could watch it on TV.

[00:38:08]>> Um I had a couple of stuff on Netflix before, right? Um so like it wasn't the first time I've ever had like a sync on television. Um but uh this was just like another level because this was just picked up by the internet, you know, this was a big deal. And um yeah, just at that point I just I I I made the video. Does anybody want this extended mix? And then bang, it was just like, you know, almost like a 100,000 likes, millions of views, like and every video I could post, I could just get a crazy algorithm. Whenever I posted anything with um with all the things she said on it on my version, the algorithm really picked it up because obviously everybody was sharing it. So that video was just getting boosted even higher. Uh it's weird when you have a really popular song, the Instagram kind of opens up to you, >> right? So, so like you have this window where you get loads of followers for no reason.

[00:39:01]>> Um >> well, obviously you have to make it, but like but the point is it's like it's like the the algorithm is on your side.

[00:39:08]>> Um so once Yeah. So once you like start to >> to get it going on um >> on on and it really picks up it just Yeah. It's that's when the whole internet kind of found me and then that was kind of where I was at and then obviously yeah bigger it kept getting bigger. It kept getting bigger and and then it kept going to like number one and then it was like the most viral song in the world at the time and then it was like number one in America for like weeks, you know, six weeks, five weeks.

[00:39:35]>> Okay. Well, one question. Did you watch the show before episode 4 or did you kind of episode 4 and then go?

[00:39:44]Unfortunately, because I'd been sent the scene so many times, it was ruined for me. Uh, >> so then, so then I had to go back and understand why it was such a big deal.

[00:39:56]>> Okay. Cuz I was going to ask once you got that context cuz for this episode, I just remember obviously >> watch the other ones to get it. If not, you're just looking at some person walking into the bar looking.

[00:40:08]>> You don't understand what it means until afterwards. Um, but the good news is is like later down the line when I did watch it, I never got to see the second part, you know, like when he goes home and he's alone and he's in the shower and >> so I felt like I got to see some of it some of it that I didn't see by allowing the bit that wasn't really shown on Instagram because I think Instagram probably might have flagged it like probably not let it be shared.

[00:40:33]>> Of course, I don't think we can show >> that moment that shower started it was like and content moderation.

[00:40:42]>> Congratulations.

[00:40:46]>> You got to hide. You got to hide.

[00:40:48]>> I was just going to ask because I remember when I was listening or watching it for the first time, obviously when the tattoo version, it was like, "Oh my god, I'm prison forever." Well, when your version came in on the exact moment where Shane's character was also realizing and seeing that Ilia was there and that his feelings were real, it was like, what is this?

[00:41:10]>> What is this? Switch to this shift.

[00:41:12]>> Very good. Um, cinema photography on many levels. And then, you know, like I say, I I've said it before, I say it again, but um I'm so buzzed that those two got to be so famous. It's so good for them. Like I reckon they'll go up.

[00:41:26]He'll end up playing like some Bond villain, >> you know.

[00:41:30]>> Oh, that would be good.

[00:41:31]>> And he'll do it in Russian and he'll probably be so good at it.

[00:41:34]>> I love it.

[00:41:35]>> Yeah. You know, and and and you know, when you look at um you know what Hudson's doing as well, like he's basically everywhere, isn't he? Like you can't really avoid him at this point.

[00:41:47]you really you you like >> they just become the most you know the sellable people >> um >> in in the world >> I mean yeah but you're I will tell you like because this was like one of the I would say the first official drop of the show and then after that we were kind of anticipating it for episode five and six but like yours was so unexpected >> that it was like >> we're gonna keep I'm going to say the word rewind even I know that's not like a thing anymore, but like keep rewinding your part and like what is this song?

[00:42:21]And it was just like such a monumental moment. So like it is really cool.

[00:42:26]>> It it just blew it up and and it was really good. And I just think that it just connected. I always thought at the time it was a good like version. I never knew it was that good.

[00:42:35]>> Um or it was going to mean so much to so many people or it was going to remind them of something, you know, like how could I have known? I made it in like 2021. So, what's >> Oh, wow.

[00:42:46]>> Like I say, very lucky for it to have happened. It could have happened to anyone. It happened to me. I don't know what to say. Like, >> now I do a bunch of interviews and >> make more music >> and play play Pride.

[00:42:58]>> That's not That's not a bad thing. So, Harrison, going back to when you first watched the scene, it really had a lot of emotional beats to it. I wonder as you're watching the scene, listening to your music and seeing what's happening on screen, how did that hit you emotionally or did you just look at it differently because it is your song?

[00:43:16]>> I was upset initially because they were playing the other version and I was like, hang on a minute, I thought my song was in Jones.

[00:43:21]>> That is real. Okay. I love that.

[00:43:23]>> Period.

[00:43:25]>> Harrison like did they just did they just give me money to put this other song in? Cuz they do realize that I'm not tattoo.

[00:43:34]They say you're connected.

[00:43:36]That is so wrong.

[00:43:37]>> I was like I was like I was like guys you must have I must have must have give you money back.

[00:43:44]>> No. Tell them to check out my song.

[00:43:46]There's my song.

[00:43:47]>> Uh no in all. Look, I love it. I love it. Like I've I've said said time and time again. It's a fantastic series. I like it's so much more than that.

[00:43:57]They're looking around the room. They're looking at each other. They clock each other. They're making each other jealous. Um, it's the whole like basically the the first four episodes are all leading up to this exact point >> and it's just like the bombshell moment and I think >> overall that's the scene that you remember from the whole series.

[00:44:17]>> Yeah.

[00:44:17]>> Yeah.

[00:44:19]>> Period.

[00:44:20]>> Okay. Okay. Song filmmaker. Okay. What is your short film coming out? I feel I feel I feel like there's something else brewing creatively behind there.

[00:44:27]>> Well, Jacob, hit me up for the song for season two soon. Um, Yoking.

[00:44:33]>> Yes, please.

[00:44:35]>> Jake is really nice, by the way. Like, so uh uh yeah. No, in all fair in all fairness, um he's done some amazing work as well as Heat Rivalry. I think people's got to realize that he this isn't his first rodeo, >> you know. So, go look at some other stuff that he's done.

[00:44:53]>> Uh such Okay, first of all, Harrison is so fun to talk to. You're talking to a friend. So, we were we're pretty we're friends now.

[00:45:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so interesting just to get his perspective on the episode and then obviously his thoughts about the show and Jacob. Um and so we really appreciate him taking the time um just to kind of get more info on what this episode meant to him. And obviously it's so interesting to hear him talk about how he doesn't even feel like the song belongs to him anymore.

[00:45:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that is, you know, a true artist journey. You know, once you release something, it's no longer yours. Um, but yeah, this is firmly belongs to the heater rivalry fandom. Sorry, Harrison, but I don't, you know, I don't think I think he's very happy about it.

[00:45:40]>> Yeah, agree. I mean, I mean, it >> it's a great song. It's a great cover.

[00:45:46]Um, okay. Okay. Well, speaking of I mean, if we're going to talk about the club scene, we've got to talk to someone who was there in the flesh. We've talked to Devonte obviously who was in front of the camera, but when we're thinking about behind the camera, quite literally, >> quite literally, >> we really wanted to get some inside scoop on just what it was like to film, you know, the club scene, but episode 4 in general, which as you know, for all of us just kind of uh the show into another gear um for those of us who are already watching. And so we had the chance to talk to none other than the iconic Miss Ashley Iris Gil who is a Bam operator queen literally like >> queen behavior >> when I when we release her like full interview I'm just like >> I was she's just so accomplished and just so interesting to talk to and so passionate about what she does.

[00:46:46]>> She is and a true creative too, right, Nicole? I think that's what we're someone who is truly gifted and creative. But also, I think what really shocked me about this interview is just >> how technical everything is, but there is a balance between technicality and creativity, >> which she balances so well. Um, and it just gave me into an insight of like the behind the scenes of production that I never, you know, knew before.

[00:47:11]>> And how much freedom that she had in her role on set. So, >> Exactly. Exactly.

[00:47:16]really interesting to talk to her about um the club scene, a couple other scenes throughout the episode and in general her experience working with Jackson and um Jacob and uh you know Connor and Hudson and just uh what it was like behind the lens. So let's our conversation with Ashley.

[00:47:39]>> We love you Ash.

[00:47:42]But yeah, I guess getting into episode four, um you were the the Bcam operator.

[00:47:48]Like if we were to step into your shoes dayto day, particularly on this episode, but on set in general, key to rivalry, like in a way, because we want to really want for people who may be listening or watching that may not know what your kind of day-to-day looked like, what what are the things that you're looking out for um as a Bcam operator on set um that maybe we wouldn't as a viewer just watching episode 4?

[00:48:15]um like kind of behind the scenes, what am I looking out for?

[00:48:20]>> Yeah. Like what does it look like daytoday for you particularly on this episode but in general on on uh the set of heater rivalry? Yeah.

[00:48:29]>> Well, I think it's kind of interesting.

[00:48:30]So like a camera normally is like the the one that tells like the main juice of the story. So, like he gets a lot of like the wide shots. Also, a lot of the close-ups too, but like the wide shots are typically his and I have to kind of sometimes find a shot if there's like no shot kind of like designed for me. So, typically what I will be looking for, it's like I look at the set to figure out what is going to make the most interesting shot. So, for example, if there's like a lamp um that might be like right out of someone's head, like I'll move myself to like to kind of correct that. or or if um there's a stand or something that's like super close to me or like I know like oh if that stand moved an inch over I can get a better shot, you know? So I think I'm just thinking about the >> the little pieces on set that might help my shop be better because sometimes they're focusing on like the a camera shot cuz it might be a more complicated like setup. Like James, our a camera operator, super talented, but he had a lot of like Ronin stuff and steady cam stuff and like there was just way more tech on his end. I had to more so avoid that, but still finding myself a shot.

[00:49:37]Um, so yeah, I think I'm just I'm thinking about like yeah, the little things that can be moved um around to help my shot. Um, trying to think. I feel like there's so many things in the moment that like you're considering that I I can't like pinpoint like one or two things, but I definitely think like the track of it.

[00:49:54]>> Does that give you more freedom a little bit?

[00:49:58]>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:50:00]cuz like so okay just to go a little bit just to go back I guess so every scene gets blocked out so the director um the director Jacob and Jackson they'll block it with like the actors and me and the other operator we'll like sit in the same room and watch the blocking to see like where the characters go and what kind of happens. So when the blocking is done um I'll ask Jackson the a camera Jackson I'll ask James the a camera operator where he's going to set up his shot. So he if he's like, "Oh, I'm going to be over here. I'm getting a wide of this." Like the boys are sitting right here. So once I figure out where he's going to be, I'll talk to um Jackson to figure out where he wants me. And sometimes he'll be like, "Okay, Ash, like get a profile shot of him or like you're going to get something tight on like his hands or like his neck." Like he'll kind of tell me like what he wants and then I'll just kind of like find a shot. And I'll work with like the team behind the scenes to like kind of craft it and stay out of James' way cuz he might have like a dolly track going across like this. So, I can't be right beside his camera. So, I'm like, "Oh, his path is this way. Can maybe I'll like be over here and just get like a profile shot of like their eye or something for this take.

[00:51:04]>> And then if he's not on the dolly and he hops off and maybe he's like on steady cam and now he's like walking around.

[00:51:09]I'm like, "Oh, cool." Like, no one ever looks in that corner. I can like put myself over there.

[00:51:14]>> So, we all kind of like do the dance to like place ourselves and just like let the performance be the performance.

[00:51:20]>> That's That's really cool. So, Ashley, you talked about how physically demanding being a cam operator is, and I'm just I'm I'm just curious since you talked about, you know, you having to create your own shots in a sense, you know, was there a scene or a sequence that you felt was really physically demanding and not particularly, it doesn't have to be episode 4, but throughout the entire shoot?

[00:51:44]Well, because Bcam gets like the tight shots, I think it's harder to get um tight shots that have like no movement to it because the tighter the lens like the less I can move around cuz you'll see everything. If I'm like shooting in here, if like I dip the camera, like it's going to be a little bit um crazy.

[00:52:03]And I remember there was one time when Jackson asked me to shoot on like a 150 mil, which essentially would put me like somewhere in the screamer land of a shot. And I was like, "Oh my gosh."

[00:52:13]because it was like a scene where um trying to remember oh if it was uh Hudson. No, it was actually Connor. So Connor was sitting on a couch um and then he kind of like goes down onto like the floor >> and I was kind of scared to get it cuz I'm like following the movement in like this tight composition. So I'm literally trying to like >> but I also I've been there.

[00:52:34]>> Yeah, but I did it in like a squat. So, I'm standing up while he's standing up and then when he sits on the couch, I'm in this weird squat and then when he goes on the floor, I like drop down to like my knee while still like keeping him in there. So, I think those were kind of like the the harder shots where it was like a super tight lens, but then it looked good. And then he was like, "Oh, you're good at that. Like, we'll keep you on those like lenses."

[00:52:55]>> You said you said pain is temporary.

[00:52:56]This shot will last forever cuz let me tell you how my knees would have folded, girl. Good on you. You said kneesack knees done.

[00:53:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> listen. I'm trying to be like Ashley when I grow up.

[00:53:08]>> And I can imagine that movement's hard because you're having to also keep pace with the actor who could change the pace each shot, right? Or each take, I guess.

[00:53:17]>> And that's the thing they everyone does like the physicality of their body always changes shot to shot. Often like like their performance it'll get better or might stay like very similar, but yeah, like where they move is different or when they decide to get up or on what word they try to get up. So it's like you can't really predict things. All you can really predict is like the zones of like where their head might fall. So if like a character is sitting like where I'm sitting, I'm like, "Okay, cool."

[00:53:40]Like their head is like really close to the top of the painting. So I know like if I tilt up, just tilt up to like about here and I'll be safe.

[00:53:47]>> So I kind of just look at like the atmosphere or like the room around to figure out like the best way to like pan or tilt or like get the camera close.

[00:53:55]But I will say us shooting a lot of stuff like handheld like really helped because I feel like handheld is more instinctual. Like you're more like in it. like it's you and your body versus like on a dolly or using another like tool that it's like >> it's more like the mechanics of like the machine or like um >> you can change the tension on a tripod.

[00:54:14]So it might be like harder to tilt or harder to like pan, but if you're handheld it's just like you and the camera like you figure out the weight.

[00:54:21]Um but yeah, there was a lot of complicated shots and then I think there was some shots cuz I I did a lot of zoom shots. So did James. We both kind of did a lot of the zoom shots, but I think some of those were stressful cuz you can't really have a bump in a zoom shot if it's going to be played out as like one long like push in. So, if I'm like doing a push in, like if I sneeze or do anything and I shake the camera, I kind of ruin that take.

[00:54:42]>> So, I think it was just like yeah, the pressure of like, >> oh my gosh, like like making sure it's fine. And then I have like Jackson in my ear who's like so sweet. He's like, oh yes, Ash, like that looks good. Or he'll be like, hey, short side, like drift a little bit to the left. I'm like >> trying not to breathe, like trying to trying to get those moments.

[00:55:00]>> That is a highwire act you're doing right there. Like just when you're thinking about your own bodily function like I can't sneeze or you know I'm going to mess up sort of the placement of the shot. That that's insane. So >> you just are constantly sort of reassessing the area and just thinking through what what you need to do and change. Is that kind of how your mindset is when you're filming?

[00:55:21]>> Oh yeah, for sure. Like in in the take typically like Jackson won't like say like too much things like he just kind of like lets us like focus on the moment but then after every take like he'll give like feedback. He'll be like oh I like that Ash but like you know like cut this part um out like cut like the lamp out a little bit more or like drift to his hands a little bit faster or like he'll kind of give me directions. So then on the next take I'm like okay cool. So I have like my edits and then I just got to remember all the little things that he said and then I just try to get it on the next take. That's >> I do have a I mean you just sparked a question because like before each episode that you all are filming are you going through like the certain because I think you've talked about like it's important in your role specifically to like read the scripts right and like understand what's coming up >> but for each of because um heated rivalry was filmed out of order. It wasn't just like episode four here we go. um like were you all taking it almost shot by shot before obviously things um happened on like what you were trying to achieve in that way or so although it's not um in order like on the call sheet like it tells you like what scenes we're doing so like it'll be like oh this scene this scene this scene but then you also get something called sides which are like the excerpts of the script so typically like every morning like I kind of I'll try to get there a little bit early um sometimes I can't, but I'll I'll always read the sides. So, I'll give myself like the refresher like, "Oh, we're doing this scene and this is what happens in this scene um today." And then, yeah, Jackson will just come to me and James in the morning and he'll kind of talk us through what he's thinking. So, he's like, "All right, cool. So, we're going to be like uh well, since you want to talk about episode 4, but it's like, yeah, okay, we're going to do like this party scene.

[00:57:03]So, like James, you're going to be here like moving through the crowd and like you're focusing on um Connor while he's like looking at Hudson, which is technically like the camera and Ash.

[00:57:13]Like you can get something in the crowd.

[00:57:15]Just know like don't be in this area because this is like James' route or whatever. So then I might just like get like a little shot of like the crowd.

[00:57:22]I'm drifting across them or like getting little moments like that. But um yeah, even though it's shot out of order, like Jacob and and Jackson kind of had everything planned out. So they just kind of like talked to us about what was kind of happening that day like, "Oh, this is like in the past or this is what's happening here, or we're using handheld for this reason. We're using sticks for this reason." So they kind of talked us through everything. So I didn't really have to like think too hard about that to be honest, >> which is nice.

[00:57:49]>> Yeah, that is nice.

[00:57:51]>> Oh, that's interesting.

[00:57:53]>> The one question No, sorry. I I wanted to go back to one part of episode 4 because I'm curious >> when we're thinking about there's a shot or a scene of Hayden and Shane at the aquarium >> and you hear all of like Hayden's 51 kids in the background but y'all he has so many >> he doesn't like >> so many like so young >> but you see the one baby that Shane's holding but you hear off camera right all of the kids and you see Hayden and Shane interacting with them like how do you because the camera has to do a lot of work in that at least as a viewer watching like we have to see them looking off camera but then there's an awareness that I don't know were the kids there on set when they were filming and then like what is the role as a as a camera operator in that to kind of set the tone for what our experience should be as an audience in that since we're not seeing part of what we're supposed what we're hearing I guess as a character. That's a great question.

[00:58:54]Well, I think I think well that's definitely more like world building with uh like the director, the DP and like the production designer as well as like the people that did the actual like projection because like they kind of build the world that you can kind of fake and like believe that like you're within it, you know? Um, I think for composition for me, I just wasn't too wide because I think when you're when you when you have a wide shot, you expect to see the things that you're hearing in a different way than when you're like tighter. Um, >> and yeah, cuz like you if like if that wasn't a shot like in here and you're hearing kids, you're just going to believe like, oh, they're running off looking at some of the aquarium stuff or they're at the concession stand over here like they're doing something within the round. But yeah, when you're super wide, you're just like, okay, I'm hearing all this stuff, but like where is it? And I think it was easier to sell at a location like this simply because like museums or aquariums like there are empty people in a certain area and there's a bunch of kids like somewhere offcreen. So I think it was kind of like an easier cheat based on like where they were, you know, cuz I think if we did like a amusement park, we'd have to have a million kids cuz there's no way to pretend that there's no kids running across the camera or in in the same area, you know? But somewhere like an aquarium, it's like Yeah. You would have a little quiet corner where you're looking at some fish or some whales and there's no kids on screen.

[01:00:15]>> Yes. And where you also could like leave your kids off to the side if you're a parent >> listening ice cream off camera.

[01:00:25]>> Listen, baby. So, so Ashley, I want to talk about the club scene a little bit because that truly had the fandom in shambles >> till this day. It's um will go down.

[01:00:37]It'll go down in film and television infamy. Um okay. And I think the beauty of it is the tension and you achieve that really when you see the differing perspectives between Shane and Illy. And I just want you to talk a little bit about filming on that day, sort of your role in creating that tension and what shots really stood out for you.

[01:00:58]>> Wow. Well, that day was very interesting. I think that was the first day where we had that many extras. And honestly, one thing about film making, it doesn't matter what space you walk into. It could be the biggest house you've ever seen in your life. The moment we bring all of our stuff in there, it's the most claustrophobic space you've ever been in. Like literally, there's a million people everywhere. So, I remember showing up being like, "Oh my god, there's people everywhere." Like, I I had nowhere to sit. I couldn't like put anything down.

[01:01:27]Um, then it was just like the the the fun game of like how we stash ourselves, like where are we going to put our lens, where are we going to put this, like where can I hide myself essentially. But yeah, I felt like the the amount of people was definitely overwhelming the most um >> for that day. I think when it came to like the tension. Um, so those single shots that like those iconic single shots like James got those ones. Um, in those like know when they did like the slow pushing and like the lights all like flicker.

[01:01:58]>> Oh yeah, girl. We know >> girls.

[01:02:02]>> Yeah, we know you sad.

[01:02:08]>> Beat by beat.

[01:02:09]>> I love it. I think Yeah. Oh, I think like the it's the recipe of like the camera being like super slow because like you're really just taking in everything. Like even if it was like handheld, I don't even think you would have had like that same energy as like the steady cam because steady cams it has like this nice like flow to it. So I felt like that really helped people um like draw into that moment but then also like all the out of focus like bodies and the way that the light was like hitting them. And I think that outside of it being like beautifully crafted, I I think that everyone's had like similar moments to that. Like you're in a party, you see someone in the crowd and you guys like might like your eyes might meet for a second, but it's like the world does seem like it's kind of stopping. So I think like the slow motion of it, like the slow pace of and like honestly their eye contact is just so good.

[01:02:56]>> Like Connor and Hudson, the way they look at each other, like >> they do 80% of the work right there.

[01:03:01]>> Like >> we don't got to read too much. Listen.

[01:03:05]>> Well, and and the way that that and Tyra Tyra and I talk about this all the time, like the thing that's so um amazing about the show is the camera always lingers. So, we're able to see that eye contact and like feel that tension and some of like what's going on and unsaid because of the camera lingering in that way that like you just don't get in a lot of shows to be quite honest. Um, and so it did feel that way in in the club.

[01:03:35]Um, and so yeah, it I'm curious like just in general, is there a lot of conversation happening with you all about the camera's role in um I guess showing or displaying what that is some of the emotion or the feelings are between those two characters because even in another example we were talking about was the um the scene at uh Ilia's house where He's asking Shane to stay and there's like this very like nice zoomin shot of them as the scene gets more intimate. It's it's zooming in and then we see them like having a nap together and it's kind of in this tight shot, right? Yeah. Sorry, I'm walking beat by beat girl. Uh and it's like I didn't know what part of that scene we were talking about. I said is that before? I thought >> I can see it. I can see it. I can see it, too.

[01:04:34]>> I thought we were talking on a different scene.

[01:04:36]>> But then you But then you see the but then you see the camera kind of widen again to kind of show why Shane is freaking out a little bit because it is like wait that we're in a situation that is like not as intimate to him like it's unfamiliar. So, I'm just curious in general before these shots, are you all also besides the technicality of it, I guess, talking about like what you should be kind of uh conveying in these scenes, I guess.

[01:05:02]>> Yeah. Well, um yeah, we definitely have conversations with that. I will say like Jackson was like super organized, like all set like he had like his iPad with all his his notes on it. He also had like his his references. He kind of had like everything on deck. So, we would talk about every shot beforehand. So he might be like, "Oh, Ash, like start in here and then widen out to make sure you see like up to here or like, you know, like below the nipple or something." So I kind of knew where I was going to start and where I was going to end, but it was like the in between part was like more instinctual, you know, cuz it's like how fast am I going to zoom out? At what point am I going to start? Like the zoomer might be like, "Oh, start on this line," but then it's like it's not going to say like end on this line, you know?

[01:05:43]So, I think it's just like it's just the instincts of like me also being the first audience and just like watching the moment being like, >> "Oh my gosh, this is like intense. Okay, cool. Oh, okay. He's getting off the bed now. Okay, fell here." Like, you know, I first of all, I love that turn of phrase, the first audience. That's That's great. Um, I love that. So I guess to that point then Ashley like you know when you get a reference point from Jackson and then it's kind of just up to you like how does your creativity your personal creativity play into that because you know you're you get notes from Jackson but also this is kind of a two-hander between you two.

[01:06:22]>> Oh for sure. It's kind of it's kind of like a a chef gives you all the ingredients and is like, you know, you can add your little sauce to it, you know, and I think >> typically well, I think there's there's like an unspoken thing amongst like operators in general where it's like the first the first take you get whatever like the cinematographer and the director like they kind of want out of you and then the second take you get like a better version of that first take cuz like they'll have some edits and then the third take you can kind of like freestyle and do what you want, you know? So I think I kind of would always like go in with that method. So it's like yeah. So if if I don't know if the shot it's like um a conversation happening and like yeah it is a zoom then it's like oh maybe on this take like I'm going to start on his hands and then go up and drift to his face and then do the zoom out or or find like a a different POV to kind of convey the story. And I think after the first two takes and the blocking, you kind of >> can figure out like your own sensibilities in that moment and what makes sense to you. So I think for me I because I'm a I'm a cinematographer and a camera operator so I have my own style in terms of like composition how I I like things to be like the symmetrics of like my own shots and when you work with other DPS you kind of lean into like their style and I think it's interesting when you get to kind of like blend both of those when you collab and I think like that's kind of like what me and Jackson did. I feel like he has a very distin distinct style. I feel like I have like a style and I think when we like marry them together it worked out really well.

[01:07:49]Wow. That's You know what? And I think we can all tell that it worked out very well because look at the response. So, Ashley, I just I just want to know, you know, what was your reaction when episode 4 came out and just the fandom's response to that? I'm curious, what were your thoughts?

[01:08:06]Got to know.

[01:08:07]>> Um, well, honestly, I thought it was amazing. Like, it's it's very interesting when you work on a show because like you never know how it's going to turn out in any way, shape, or form. like you never know if people are going to like it, if they're not. You also don't know what's going to happen in post, you know, like are your shots going to make it? Is the edit going to, you know, you don't really know. But um yeah, I think seeing how people responded made perfect sense after I watched the episode myself and when I seen that club scene, I was like, "Oh my god." Like, >> exactly. Y'all did that.

[01:08:39]>> This is ridiculous. Y'all really did that. It's It's kind of ridiculous. It's just that good. like I had to play it again. Like I was just like yo this is it was like it's so interesting because it had like the energy of like a music video in a way like in terms of like like the color palette like the slow like movements and like >> I kind of came up in music videos. I have like a super like I have a love for for music videos and just like the cinematography of music videos and I felt like the way that James kind of danced in the crowd it gave me like that same energy and I was like and then that song like all the things she said perfect song >> like I don't care what like no other song that could have been more perfect >> like >> no it felt like it and me and Tyra said were saying because we were like watching that scene alone it I don't know if you all had this thought going into it, but it felt very nostalgic for us. Like it reminded us of like the early 2000s when you would watch like a romcom or something like a romantic drama or something where one you didn't see people on their phones, which was great in the club. So I was like, "Oh, this reminds me of when I was like in my 20s at the club."

[01:09:48]>> Well, you could do whatever and nobody would know.

[01:09:50]>> Yeah. But then it just Yeah. attention and like I think what you said like there was like a music video quality like when that beat drop happened it felt like I was watching a fan edit or something like I was just like >> yep >> taken aback by so locked in >> all of it yeah very locked in >> and tension I I agree with that I feel like the only other movie that's ever made me feel like that same vibe is like love and basketball when they're dancing in the gym and they're both looking at each other >> and it's like you're just like can You guys just want to be your man in it.

[01:10:23]>> Yeah. Thank you. Like where you're at and be together because like that tension I was just like I like just >> Yeah.

[01:10:30]>> Yeah.

[01:10:30]>> We want you know I told I told Nicole I said I think the only other needle drop besides Harrison in that that scene and that scene in general was probably sinners >> in that scene where you know the dancing scene through history but it's just it's actually insane. Like we've talked to Harrison about this. We talked to Devonte about this and like everyone had the same reaction. That scene is just >> kind of a game changer to be honest.

[01:10:55]Like the trajectory of this show, it just >> took and even like Jackson's like lighting because like the flickering light made the moment so much more intense.

[01:11:08]>> You're like seeing things and you're not. And then you're seeing things and then you're not. But like their eyes are never changing. Their bodies aren't moving. It was just like >> Yeah, it was perfection I must say.

[01:11:17]Ashley. Well, I have a question on that real quick then because in the club scene a lot of times we're seeing the camera almost being either Ilia or being Shane. Like we're it's almost like we the camera is like their viewpoint.

[01:11:32]>> Like how technical is that? I guess like when you're filming it because particularly the one where you see like okay Ilia is scanning and then you see him noticing Shane and then you see Shane noticing Ilia at some point but it's the camera noticing it not actually them I guess >> like how do you make it so that obviously there's probably technical beats that you have to hit but making it feel almost like it's an eye that's like oh this is like the person we're focus focusing on or whatever it is like what's that process look like?

[01:12:08]>> For sure. So the the major consideration in uh moments like this is just like your ey line. So where you're looking in relation to like where the camera is and like is it believable essentially like that's like the major thing and that's that kind of falls on the script supervisor. So the script supervisor is the main person that does watch. So shout out Jenny Mac who's an incredible script supervisor who I've also worked with on other stuff and I just love her.

[01:12:34]But um so it's like so essentially we would frame up so like me and James would frame up our shot and then Jenny Mack would come out and she would like show us either frames from another scene or a wide shot and be like oh the ey lines are too wide like it it's not like it's not believable or the ey lines are too tight and then we kind of like find out exactly where they need to look to sell it. So, it might be like it could honestly be me holding the camera and being like, "Okay, Connor, like look here. Look here." And then Jen Mac will be like, "There." And then we get like a a stand and a tennis ball or something so that he he can like look at that spot. And that's kind of what everyone does across the board in film. It's we just find an ey line or it might even be like the matbox or sometimes it might even be like Hudson standing like right beside me. So, they're actually looking at each other. Like it could be a variety of of the things depending on like where we are in the space, you know, but it's just all eyines. Like that's what really helps it cuz I feel like as a viewer, we felt like we were so in it because the eyelines were like so spot-on. But if like Connor was looking too far off to either side, we we we would be kind of pulled out of the moment, you know?

[01:13:40]>> Yeah.

[01:13:40]>> Yeah. No, it felt visceral throughout that whole sequence, especially when we get to the end and they're both breaking the fourth wall and looking to camera.

[01:13:48]>> I'm g tell you, Ashley, I was like, I'm uncomfy. Okay, I didn't want to be in this much of y'all's business.

[01:13:54]>> No one told y'all to look at us part of my included me in this.

[01:14:01]And also, I think editing also really helped like like the editor on the episode was incredible. Like going back and forth between all the little like moments and like Yeah. It just it was great.

[01:14:15]>> A beautiful dance.

[01:14:16]>> Yeah. For for scenes like that though where it's like Yeah. There's these tight shots, right?

[01:14:22]And I'm I don't know if you all shot them close together or not, like in terms of sequence, but it felt like they were being filmed at the same time.

[01:14:31]because of just like the intimate nature of it, like from a like a I guess like an from your point of perspective, like how do you all make that happen? Because it did feel as if I'm watching both people at the same time on the same night, you know, obviously having these feelings toward each other, but I would imagine you're filming them at different times. Like are there certain directions or or I guess things that you all do to make it feel almost like the same uncomfortable shot that we felt watching it at the end.

[01:15:06]>> I love it. Well, I think um well the the matching shot of the boys looking at each other like James Gothos and I think that he's really good at um I guess just like matching like his previous shot, you know, cuz it's like you shoot one version of it and then you kind of like flip the world, flip the lighting to get like the opposite of it and you kind of make sure like that shot matches. So I think one one good thing, not good thing, but one way to kind of capture that it's like having James get both of them. you know, it wouldn't make sense for him to get one and for me to get one because we might shoot them like slightly different um composition wise.

[01:15:41]So, it won't have like the same energy of it looking like identical. So, it's like James would get like one version and then he would be the one to get the other so it matches like perfect.

[01:15:51]>> But, um yeah, I think I don't know. I guess I'm trying to think of like there's any like considerations to really help sell it, but I think like we kind of like lived in that lighting, you know? It's like we're kind of like in the moment. the extras were were in the moment. Um, we'd obviously like cut the music and certain things in between takes, but I think everyone just really was just um yeah, really like locked in and just like focused and like we all knew what we were there to do, you know, and it was a very like intense moment and I think that everyone can relate to it. So, it's so easy to kind of like slip into that energy.

[01:16:26]>> Cool. I I have one more question wrapping this up. So, Ashley, what's your personal process then? because it sounds like you're having conversations with um Jackson and James and so what do you do when you're going into a scene or sequence like are there are you mentally cataloging things? Do you write things down? What's your process?

[01:16:46]Um, I think it's more mental for me.

[01:16:50]Like I think the most important um moment honestly is the blocking because like just seeing the whole scene like top to bottom and figuring out like what exactly is going to happen like where exactly is Connor walking and what is he doing? What is what exactly is it's Hudson, you know, like Rose, like what is every single person doing in that moment? So I think during the blocking I'm just scanning and I'm I'm also looking at like I was kind of saying with like the head considerations. I'm like, "Okay, if if Connor's at the bar, like this thing is like close to here, so I know like where like my range kind of is, you know, and I'm looking off camera like, "Oh, where's Video Village?

[01:17:25]Where's this?" So, I think my biggest thing is just scanning the space and kind of figuring out like what's my world? Like, where can I get a shot?

[01:17:32]Like, where where can I exist? You know, um Jackson definitely often like knows exactly what he wants, but sometimes I have to hide myself somewhere, you know?

[01:17:40]I'm like, "Okay, cool." like no one is shooting these people like taking shots over here like let me just grab a little beat of that you know um so yeah I think I definitely like mental note I don't really write things down when I'm camera operating so I think it definitely is a lot more in instincts um and conversations and just like hearing notes like Jacob might come and like have a note and then it's just like okay cool next take just get that um >> and yeah and I I'm also like a Virgo so I'm like very like anal and about >> I'm an astrology girl so I I already know what that means.

[01:18:14]>> Yeah. Like I'm just like very know and I want to get things things right. So, you know, so if I if I get a note or correction, I'm like, "All right, next take like that." Like that's what we're doing. So, I think um those are my maj major considerations. And I think too just building up my camera in a way that like makes sense for the shot. Um one camera operator actually gave me advice once because oftent times I'm trying to find the easiest way to explain this. We always put our body in a very uncomfortable position and then we have to like hold it there. So like let's just say I don't know I'm carrying a character from like here to here. I might do like something like this but then now my body is like like this in a weird position. So >> the smart thing is kind of make your body uncomfortable at the beginning of the shot and make your body more comfortable at the end. So, if I know that this is where I want to be at the end, I might start the shot here and the beginning this is like so uncomfortable, but by the time I'm here, I'm just chilling.

[01:19:11]>> So, I think like when I'm figuring out what my shot is, I'm like, "Okay, where do I start and where do I end? And how can I be comfortable at the end of the shot and just kind of work through whatever I'm feeling like at the beginning, you know? Or like >> I might be doing like a pan or a tilt and my hand is like really low in a weird spot and then I'm like up here but it's like no just >> drop the handle let it be here. So now I'm just going from here to here. So I think I'm just considering of like how to build the camera in a way that's going to make my job easier. Or if it's a long a long handheld scene and I am in a screamer, I'll make sure like my handles are right here so I don't have to move too much versus like my handles being lower and I'm breathing and now as I'm breathing the rig is going forward.

[01:19:51]So, I think those are my my considerations. Like, yeah, what can I physically do between myself and the camera team to make the camera as comfortable for me for whatever it is I have to capture? If I'm dropping to my knees, I'm like, "Okay, cool. Let me go get my knee pads because I know I'm standing and then I have to like do that or I'm going to end up in, you know, I need something for my elbows." You know, you kind of just figure out what the shot is and you work with the team to craft the bits to kind of get it.

[01:20:18]Ashley, this is how I know you're physically fit because none of those positions you demonstrated look comfortable. When you were like, I'mma start here and then get more comfortable. I said, girl, go ahead. Go ahead. Ashley, one day I will be there. That pivot. I said none of these positions look comfortable to me. Starting or ending.

[01:20:38]>> You got to work out though. Like if you're in film, honestly, like you definitely have to be like you have you have to work out and you al also have to have a sharp brain cuz it's literally all like instincts and like timing cuz like if you're one second off you might miss the thing. You might miss them grabbing something. You might miss them sitting and then if you're like behind like the shots kind of burnt, >> you know?

[01:21:00]>> So you just have to also like learn how people get up cuz like after a certain point I know like I know exactly how Hudson's going to get up. I know exactly how Connor is going to get out because I just I've been shooting them standing so much, you know, >> or like I know how fast they walk into a room or out of a room. So, it's just like learning these little things about people's physical body. Even like people who like lean and talk >> because like my focus puller like he's like keeping them focused, but then I'm also like considering what that what that means. So, if I have someone that's always like >> Yeah.

[01:21:34]>> and it's handheld, I'm just like, "Oh my gosh." like yeah that's great the shaky came of it all.

[01:21:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:43]>> That's so fascinating because what it feels like is also to me you have to have confidence within your choices because like I don't know. I mean I'm curious because there's all of this talk all the time around heated rivalry being filmed pretty quickly or just like not that many takes. So, like were you having to make decisions pretty pretty on the fly or quickly in between different takes of scenes because you weren't filming, you know, each moment, you know, 20 times or >> Well, it it's actually very interesting because I think that people overshoot like in general like industrywide to be honest like even like if I'm DP like it's just I think naturally people get like seven to nine takes and often times they don't change very much. Like I'll be operating. I'm just like another one.

[01:22:35]Like we don't we don't really need it.

[01:22:36]So I actually love the fact that like Jacob knew when he got the take he wanted and we moved on.

[01:22:42]>> Like there was like sometimes he didn't want one for safety. He was like why?

[01:22:46]Like we got it. And I was like thank you. I love this man because it's so true. Like we don't need seven eight takes if they're going to do the exact same thing you know. So, um, yeah, for me, I just thought it was it was really amazing the speed in which we were getting things. I mean, sometimes I'd be like, "Oh, man. I I wish we had another one." Like, for my own virgoing at that moment, >> but honestly, if Jacob and Jackson think it's great, like it is great. So, I'm like, "All right, cool. Let's just like move on." But it also allowed us to have like a regular life outside of like working >> because typically like you work 12 plus 1. So you work like a 12-h hour day on set and a 1 hour lunch. That's 13 hours that you're on set and then depending on where you live, you might have another hour at the beginning and the end. So your day could be like 15 hours. But it's like I would say like we had like we were kind of in the 10 hour range, sometimes nine, sometimes we're waiting for night time because like Jackson is so fast. So, it's like it was really like nice because I'm like, "Wow, you guys are doing amazing work, but you also like value the time of like your cast and crew because we're not doing these like extremely exhausting days when like we got the shot."

[01:23:57]>> Wow. Yeah, >> that's incredible.

[01:24:00]>> No, it was it was like I lived very close to like like half of the shot or half of the shoot was like in Hamilton and at the time I lived in Hamilton. So, I would segue like 10 minutes home. It was amazing.

[01:24:13]>> You're like, I'm done with the day.

[01:24:16]>> You're like, I'm revving up. I'm going home.

[01:24:18]>> Yeah. I just I just cruise off set. I'm like, all right, later, y'all.

[01:24:22]>> Well, well, thank you for having me.

[01:24:23]It's been lovely chatting with you both.

[01:24:25]>> Thank you as well.

[01:24:27]>> So, that was our conversation with Ashley. You guys, she is amazing. Just a wealth of knowledge that she has. for someone who has had the journey that she has and like Nicole said earlier. Um I can't wait for you guys to see or hear the full interview that we had with her cuz she just her journey to becoming a camera operator. She also DPS supremely talented and Ashley we are eternally grateful that you were able to come on top five.

[01:24:55]>> Yay.

[01:24:56]>> So next you guys we are going to be talking to some fans. What was the fandom like on that day six months ago when episode 4 dropped? Nicole, we have talked about the leadup to episode 4 and how promotional things had changed, >> but after episode 4 dropped, the timelines were all in shambles. So we t we're talking to a couple of fans and just what their thoughts were initially when the episode came out, how to change the them viewing the show after episode came out to the previous three episodes and you know what are their little niche fandom corners that they like to that they like to inhabit? Fan edits, maybe fan fiction. We're going to talk about it all.

[01:25:43]>> We're going to talk about it all.

[01:25:45]>> It's so interesting because Tyra and I have like we started being in fandoms when we were like teens. So, it's been like 20 years. I mean, it's been such a long >> professional fandom.

[01:25:55]>> I'm like, "Oh, okay. I found something else to fall into, whatever." But then there are people who this is literally their first fandom, and they're experiencing like these fandom things for the first time. And it's like, I'm sorry. Wait, you you didn't know what fanfiction was? So, so >> you know what?

[01:26:10]>> They never heard of fan form, Nicole.

[01:26:12]They've never heard of fan form.

[01:26:13]>> I was a mod on fan form and I was like, 12 12 telling girl people what to do.

[01:26:19]Don't post. That's crazy. That's crazy.

[01:26:23]>> Not a moderator.

[01:26:25]>> Love it. But this is how deep that we have been into fandom. So this is nothing new to us. I mean, even though I don't think we've ever been in anything this level of just craziness.

[01:26:36]>> Yeah, we've never been any, but we are definitely very much accustomed to fandom. Um, so interesting talking to some people who this is like their first foray. And if not their first raid, they've never been in this deep like the rest of us are.

[01:26:52]>> Yeah. So, we're going to talk to a couple people and also share our experience, too, because this whole thing is is crazy as I'm sure if you're watching, it's crazy for you, too.

[01:27:01]You're a part of the fandom. So, I'm sure you can relate and we'd love to hear like your also experience with the HA rivalry fandom in the comments. But for now, let's get to our conversation with a couple of fans.

[01:27:15]Hi Daniela, welcome to Top Five.

[01:27:18]>> Thank you for having me. So excited to be here.

[01:27:21]>> So hi.

[01:27:24]>> Yes. Okay. Well, first before we get into the questions, we need to see your shirt >> because I know you have a heated robbery t-shirt on.

[01:27:31]>> I do. Everybody in the in the words of Ilia Rosenov.

[01:27:36]>> Yes.

[01:27:37]>> Can comedian.

[01:27:39]>> We love it. We love it. Um, well, we wanted to talk to Daniela because one, um, we may have heard that this is your first fandom and you may have started watching the show a little later than it actually aired. So, talk to us about like how were you introduced to Heated Rivalry in general?

[01:28:01]>> So, a bunch of my friends had watched it when it came out and they were like, "You need to watch this show." And I'm like, "I don't know what what are you talking about hockey?" Like, what? Um, and then the people whose opinions I trust are like, "No, seriously, I think you will really like it." And I don't know, it was like February or something and I had like some time and I was like, "All right, fine. Let me go ahead and watch this."

[01:28:21]And when I tell you I was hooked immediately, like immediately the very first teaser trailer for Heated Rivalry popped up in my for you page.

[01:28:36]Um, and so it's it's like if you go back to all like, you know, there is the very very first one. And I remember the scene that was like, you know, I should probably watch this show, you know, if it comes on air, like I'm still off the high of watching plane clothes. And it's where Ilia goes to Shane's hotel room for the first time and he backs him up into the wall and Shane is like, "This is such a bad idea." And Ilia in that wonderful Russian accent was like, "Fuck this."

[01:29:02]>> I'm like, "Yeah, I need to watch this show." But the funny part is at the very end of that teaser, my other favorite part, which I didn't know was in episode 4, is when they're kind of like touching foreheads and kissing each other on the couch. I'm like, that's a sexy ass scene. Little did I know it was going to be the scene that sent me through the [ __ ] stratosphere and ripped my whole heart out. I was like, damn, you're listening the first half for real. I want I want you to talk to us a little bit about what were your immediate reactions after you saw episode 4. And I know this is probably going to be a little different for you because you got the chance to binge this as opposed to being in hell with us when we were watching this weekly.

[01:29:44]So just tell us about those first thoughts.

[01:29:46]>> All I could say is I think if I was watching it in real time and I had to wait a week after that episode, I don't know what I would have done. Like I I I don't because I was like what >> it was so hard. It was so like >> gh and also just cinematically that club scene is beautiful. It is beautifully shot. It is like from when he walks in and like the the shot of him from just gorgeous, right?

[01:30:13]>> Yeah.

[01:30:13]>> Oh, this broke my heart. I was like you beautiful dummies. Like what are we doing?

[01:30:19]>> Yeah. Specifically, what was your reaction to seeing the tuna melt scene then? And that moment when Shane walks out like >> how do you go from like possibly like the hottest thing I've seen on screen to like heartbreak like in a second. And you saw >> heartbreak.

[01:30:35]>> I mean you saw it in Ilia's face when he was like trying to go back to kiss him and he like gave that little smile and like oh >> and then he followed him up like he followed his eyes like to him getting >> the joy in Ellie's face. The way Connor plays that, like the joy to the heartbreak so quick, that switch, >> it was Yeah, I was I was done for it. I was like, I I get it now upon numerous reheats. And I I understand where it came from, but in the moment I was like, can we curse on this podcast?

[01:31:04]>> It's happening. Oh >> yeah. Okay. I was like, what the [ __ ] are you doing, S? Like, what are you doing? Like, no.

[01:31:11]What was going through your mind watching these two together and Shane's reaction based off of everything Ilia had thrown at him during this like tuna melt scene particularly.

[01:31:23]>> So I fully understand with my crash I have an obvious bias to Ilia.

[01:31:32][ __ ] me.

[01:31:35]Not you getting cold feet after all the [ __ ] tears you cry over the last I don't know eight years.

[01:31:42]>> Are we expecting someone else?

[01:31:46]>> I I completely understand that. So I will say that.

[01:31:50]>> Yeah.

[01:31:50]>> Yes.

[01:31:52]>> I understand it. So the ex explanation you just heard from me right now about being able to relate to Shane, I did not have that time to think that deep into it with how I reacted to Shane walking away. That came from a place of remember like in Bring It On where Big Red was like, you know, Platter Nationals right here. It's like platter Ilia is right here. He's right there. This is what you've wanted. We have seen you cry. Why didn't we kiss? Why didn't we do ABC and D? One of you has to have the [ __ ] backbone and make this happen. So I'm like Shane is right there and then you scadaddle off into the oblivion. So I was like you MOTHER FOR WHY. Not the Hollander. Not the Shay.

[01:32:40]>> Hollander you're talking about Alisa by the way.

[01:32:44]>> Was Shane right to leave Ilia his house? And if not what should he have done instead?

[01:32:52]He should have stayed and talked like he should have said.

[01:32:58]>> I mean I mean you know what you're talking now Daniela.

[01:33:01]>> I know I know our our sweet >> sunflower buttercup.

[01:33:06]>> Both of them communication.

[01:33:08]>> Communication is not their strong suit.

[01:33:09]Okay. So in a world where they are better communicators >> like he should have stayed or he could have like >> walked out of the room and then come back and be like hey I'm freaking out like I need to talk about this or like just say I'm freaking out >> and then like I don't know something will happen besides him just like leaving and saying I can't do this >> but I understand knowing like what you know about Shane like I I understand why like his system literally just like shortcircuited and he was like I got to go. Yeah.

[01:33:39]>> And and Danielle, as I always say, like Shane has history. Like he knows that Ilia disappeared for 6 months at one point in their relationship. Like Ilia has done some [ __ ] [ __ ] >> And so he's learned not to push too much. And then when Ilia kind of flips the script as he does in that scene, it's like, well, >> I don't know what to believe. What is the truth at this point?

[01:33:59]>> Right. Exactly. His whole like paradigm of how he views the world shifted and he's like, >> it's like, I need to go. in Ilia's clothes and you know what did he do with his clothes? I I have questions about that.

[01:34:12]>> Oh, I do too. I do. I'm like >> I know. I assume so.

[01:34:18]>> He did. But I'm like what you you're leaving my house and you're taking my [ __ ] That's crazy.

[01:34:26]>> So So let's talk about the club scene.

[01:34:29]Alicia, what are your first initial thoughts when we go through that amazing sequence? H. So when so when Ilia gets to the club, I'm like, "Yeah, he's gonna see that Shane's there." And so when he saw, you know, Rose's friend and like you just see him take that deep breath after he panorams and see Shane, I'm like, "This man is about to be a Russian menace at level 8,000." I didn't know what it was going to look like, but I knew it was going to be petty as hell. I just knew it. And so when you so when you see Shane see you know um Ilia's teammates and he walks away and Ilia is just giving that girl the business on the neck and the ears and just everything. I'm like [ __ ] I wish that was her but that's besides and >> and >> yeah but like to see like Shane's face fall and then Ilia is just laser staring at him like this is what you asked for.

[01:35:25]like he kind of really didn't but I kind of also understand the reaction because Ilia was hurt. He obviously was and then Shane was hurt and jealous.

[01:35:32]>> Yes, very much so. And then you know Shane was hurt >> I think probably seeing like what the aftermath of like you know tuna melt scene that happened to Ilia cuz I don't Shane didn't know I guess what Ilia was going through or how he felt but we definitely get to see it in that scene with him making out with that girl. What did you feel when you saw them break the fourth wall at the end of episode 4 when they're looked to camera?

[01:35:57]>> I I don't even think I blinked during that entire scene. I think the one thing I did say was, "Oh [ __ ] he had sex with her.

[01:36:07]He actually managed to do it." I was LIKE, "REALLY?"

[01:36:11]LIKE, THAT threw me all off. But I But looking at the scene, I knew they were both thinking about each other. And I love the way they filmed it. It's very up close. It's personal. Like when people get that like close to you, you kind of want to just shy away. And I think I kind of like turned my head while watching it. Like you both are doing two different things, but you're both still thinking about each other. So like the love is there, the like is there, all of that is there. It just hurt that >> they were both too scared to go after what they wanted and this is the aftermath of it.

[01:36:42]>> And so we know Shane is playing a role, playing a charade. And Ilia probably doesn't even like know what to think.

[01:36:49]And it's the thing is what gets me is like, you know, Ilia was or is the, you know, the guy. He's been with women. So to see him go home by himself and Shane is the one that goes home with the woman was quite the position to see. But when you get that ending scene of Shane and Ilia, >> Ilia in the bathroom by himself, Shane with Rose, and you get them looking to camera breaking the fourth wall, what reaction did you have when you saw that on your screen? Cuz me it was a lot girl.

[01:37:17]>> It was a lot. I was like >> too much.

[01:37:19]>> I was like a lot.

[01:37:21]>> Too much too good. It was too much too good.

[01:37:23]>> Too good.

[01:37:25]>> Oh my god.

[01:37:29]>> Yeah, that was that was a lot. There was a part of me I was like, "Oh, poor Rose."

[01:37:34]Like >> he looked he he he looked up those steps like he was marching to his death.

[01:37:40]>> Literally I've been playing that to perfection cuz he looks It's not like >> Yeah. And the fact that Rose I'm like if you ever turned around and saw that look and you still stayed. Girl, why? Because I mean I'm picking my dress up and getting out of there. You don't want me.

[01:37:56]>> No. I think she was just so like in her own world that >> she was. She was.

[01:38:01]>> Yeah. Cuz what? Excuse me? Like I'm walking up here to Thong and you're looking like you want to pass out or vomit? No. And it was such a nice contrast to the beginning montage where Bane and Ilia were walking up those steps >> and like and he was like >> couldn't be that.

[01:38:20]>> I know. Barely making up the steps.

[01:38:22]>> Exactly. He's like I don't want to stop kissing this man.

[01:38:25]>> Then when we get that montage in episode 4, we see like, you know, when the season starts, they're still like keeping this up and they're getting more comfortable with each other and doing a lot more. So, it it's hard not to want to have them have that happy ending.

[01:38:41]>> Oh, I have to say one thing about that opening, that montage there in season 4.

[01:38:46]Like, >> please >> justice for more couch scene. That's all I'm going to say.

[01:38:50]>> Hello.

[01:38:52]>> Come on. Come on.

[01:38:54]>> We deserve it.

[01:38:56]>> It is. It's there. It's there. Yes, >> it's there.

[01:38:59]>> Jacob, what are you doing? When Jacob says, "I don't have a lot of extra footage, but we know you do have some."

[01:39:06]You know what I mean? Like, >> yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[01:39:11]>> Releasing tape, as they say.

[01:39:15]>> Beginning with that, we get to the episode 4 montage and me and Nicole have just been like, "How did they get there from ep the end of episode two to that episode 4 montage? How did they get there?" So, what are your thoughts on that? How do you think they got there to that moment in time where they are like in depth in the situationship?

[01:39:37]I think they swept it under the rug.

[01:39:40]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:39:40]>> I do. I I don't think there was an actual conversation that really happened or at least no one that was honest because we see where I think it's Ilia texted him when he was running saying like, "Are you still mad about Vegas?"

[01:39:50]And he said, "No, I'm not mad about it."

[01:39:52]Mhm.

[01:39:53]>> So, I don't think there was an actual honest conversation about feelings the way we get in episode.

[01:39:59]>> It's also like something I've thought about in that that period of time is like Shane deletes that message because in a way he knows he has no right to even ask for that, right? Like this is not y'all never define this past what this is, which is just like we're hooking up when we can and there's no feelings or relationship involved. I can't really get mad at you because anyway, >> what moment did you realize Shane and Ilier were in deeper than either of them wanted to admit?

[01:40:37]>> That is a very good question. Um, I need to not think about this question through my reheat, right? Because upon watching it again, I would say it's episode two, right? like >> Ilia has that whole the whole Vegas thing is about him like freaking out because he doesn't want to like admit the feelings that he has right um but on my first like walkth through watch through I guess I would say episode four that's when I think that's when it all kind of came >> crashing was disastrous results >> when Shane and Ilia you know were in the bed and you know Ilia asked Shane to stay >> and we've we've never seen seen Ilia, you know, verbally outright ask that, but I didn't point this out, but someone else did, and I wish I remember who. I think several people have, is when you watch him ask him that, his feet are like quietly, frantically moving under the >> They're moving.

[01:41:34]>> And I know me, yes. When I'm nervous, I'm either rubbing my hands or like I'm twiddling with my toes in my shoes. And it's like, who doesn't know that feeling of you're wanting to be vulnerable and ask a question that you know you could get a very hard no to? And we all know rejection hurts. It does, no matter how you slice it. And nobody wants to be rejected in pursuit of something that they want. And so it it was nice seeing Ilia being vulnerable in that moment.

[01:42:04]>> What took it from like I watched a show cuz I have friends who watch the show and then they were able to just go about their lives and I don't know that life.

[01:42:11]How do they do that?

[01:42:12]>> Like Yeah.

[01:42:13]>> Somebody tell me >> for you that you've never been in fandom before, like what made you go from like watching the show to then being like, I need to seek out anything else. Like >> I I I would love to know the answer to that myself. I don't know what it is about this show. I joke there's like they sprinkled like some crack in here or something.

[01:42:31]>> They did that that is part of the recipe. I mean honestly cuz like like and like the pure stuff because I have never and I watch a lot of TV. I do I consume a lot of stuff but I've never been this obsessed about a show to the point where I will go back and watch it numerous times from start to finish or I if I need like a quick dopamine hit I will watch episodes five and six and that'll like immediately put me in a better mood. Right.

[01:42:56]>> And I had no idea that I was going to be so obsessed and into this fandom. Like I think I have four folders of heated rivalry content I've saved since like the show started.

[01:43:09]>> As so what took it from like I watched a show cuz I have friends who watch the show and then they were able to just go about their lives and I don't know that life >> how do they do that >> like you Yeah. Somebody tell me >> for you that you've never been in fandom before, like what made you go from like watching the show to then being like, I need to seek out anything else. Like >> I I I would love to know the answer to that myself. I don't know what it is about this show. I joke there's like they sprinkled like some crack in here or something.

[01:43:37]>> They did that that is part of the recipe.

[01:43:39]>> I mean, honestly, cuz like like and like the pure stuff because I have never and I watch a lot of TV. I do. I consume a lot of stuff, but I've never been this obsessed about a show to the point where I will go back and watch it numerous times from start to finish or I if I need like a quick dopamine hit, I will watch episodes five and six and that'll like immediately put me in a better mood, right? Started like just looking at on Instagram and and I started following people who create these edits.

[01:44:09]First of all, like there are so many talented people and creators out there who put together these like professional grade >> edits and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And one person who I follow like ended up getting a job with HBO. I don't know if you follow her.

[01:44:22]>> Oh yeah. Uh Bucky, right? It's insane.

[01:44:29]>> We don't either. We don't either.

[01:44:32]>> I know.

[01:44:33]>> Put your portfolio right on Twitter.

[01:44:35]Listen.

[01:44:36]>> Exactly. Uh, and so then as I started following these folks, like then my algorithm just started showing me more >> more and more. And I just I I just love the creativity of people out there. I love the fun that people are having making these edits.

[01:44:52]>> And I I I'm trying to remember. I don't know, Nicole, if you were the person who got me to read my first Vic. Um, it probably was. Mhm.

[01:45:02]>> And then and then now maybe I'm curious. Are you are you at all going to read the books? Are you going to read Heat Rivalry in the long game?

[01:45:14]>> When it comes to like there's a book and then there's a TV or or movie adaptation. I like to do the video video medium first and then go read the book because I always feel like I'm disappointed >> uh and that the adaptations are never as good as the book. Apparently, this is not the case here that he did a pretty good job.

[01:45:32]>> So, I don't know. I'm I'm very conflicted. I go back and forth.

[01:45:35]>> Well, listen, me and Tyra are long game.

[01:45:39]I mean, long game is a good mature look at their relationship. I would >> It is. Yeah. Okay. But it's going to like break my heart. Yeah.

[01:45:50]>> I mean, put it back together >> in parts, but it'll pick you back up again. Listen, it it will it will break your heart, but it'll be restored. But >> I it will be interesting though for you to go in blind without having read the books and you know adjusting the spoilers that you see online to because I am curious for people what that experience would be like. So I think if you decide to do it before or after you do have to read the book.

[01:46:17]>> Yeah. No, I think I'm definitely going to I'm definitely going to read it. Um, it's just a question of can I can I hold out all the way until April and not read it? I don't know.

[01:46:26]>> That's tough. That's tough. Although, I don't know. There a lot of fanfics out there. A lot of f to get me through.

[01:46:31]>> NO SHORTAGE OF THEM.

[01:46:34]>> That's what I was going to say. Daniela, it's so funny that you're like, I don't know if I'm read the book, but I'm like, but you've read like a hundred fan pics.

[01:46:44]>> And it's it's it's way past probably 600 different like pictures, the graphics, everything just from, you know, the fans and like, you know, all their great content they've been doing. I just I you couldn't tell me anything about it. Friend of mine was like, "Can you please shut up about this show?" I'm like, "Watch it and I will shut up."

[01:47:02]>> Who like?

[01:47:04]>> Yeah. Why?

[01:47:06]>> Period.

[01:47:07]>> Yeah. And you know, I think part of it is >> the world around us is falling apart, is terrible, awful, like whatever. Like life is stressful. And I think this came at a time where I needed an escape uh from like the everyday stuff. Um, and it was >> an escape that had nothing to do with anything that I deal with of like my normal day-to-day life. And I think that's part of >> that's part of why.

[01:47:34]>> Okay. Well, thank you uh Daniela and Alicia for the conversations.

[01:47:41]Literally like the best thing and we say this about this podcast and the reason why we started it is like we just want to get with other people about this show. So to be able to have that conversation was amazing. To be able to talk to you all right now if you're still listening is amazing. Uh >> it is because we never thought we would also have this Nicole too. Like we found each other again like through this because no one else was talking about it.

[01:48:06]>> Exactly. No one else was talking about it. We were siloed. We were on an island alone, you guys. And just no one was obsessed with the thing that we were obsessed about. I was constantly thinking about and that was after only the first two episodes premiered.

[01:48:18]>> Um I know. So being in this fandom has just been, you know, amazing. It's been a great outlet for something that we all just really love.

[01:48:27]>> So nice. It's been so nice. And I think it was so great that I I feel honestly first off so grateful that we got to talk to who we got to talk to for this episode because >> when we were like we we spent so much time trying to figure out like what's our next top five? What are we going to like talk about? And when we knew that like the halfyear anniversaries were coming up for a lot of the episodes that >> changed the game essentially for this show. We knew that episode 4 was something we wanted to do. And at first we were just going to be yapping about it and WE WERE LIKE, "WAIT, let's just let's try to talk to people who actually had experience with this show." Exactly.

[01:49:09]>> And so for them to even say yes and take the time was amazing. So thank you Devonte Harrison Ashley so much.

[01:49:16]>> The fact that you guys say yes said yes is still like we're kind of so forward about all of that. Um, but it was such, you know, you guys are so amazing to like be so gracious with your time. We really appreciate it. But >> I when I think about this episode, Nicole, I just think about going back to my initial thoughts when I was just sending you voice notes back and forth and I'm remembering that time and just a lot of my feelings that I had back then are my feelings that I have now. the same way that I felt about the beats of that moment about watching Tuda melt for the first time and just being so floored. Like even though I'd read the books at that point, knowing what's going to happen, but seeing Shane walking out of that door shattered me like it shattered Ilia because I'm just like, >> I need you guys to get it right. seeing that club scene and then, you know, the ending of that and Shane and Ilia breaking the fourth wall, >> the visceral reaction I had. I'm just like, these are the same sort of emotions that I still have six months later.

[01:50:15]>> Oh, yeah. And honestly, like I think what that episode did so well is it can serve when you look at like one, two, and five, six as this transition episode, but it did it in a way that didn't feel like that's what they were trying to do. It was just like part of the story to me that might be the most important part of the story that needed to happen in terms of like Shane and Ilia. Like a lot of these beats had to happen to get us from this like playful kind of no strings attached version of Shane and Ilia to like we have to acknowledge our feelings and know that we're in love and we want to take this to another level Shane and Ilia that we saw in parts of five and then all of six. And I just, you know, I think episode 4 in any other show would be the episode of the season, but obviously I mean >> we got episode five right behind it.

[01:51:15]>> Episode six after that, you know? I mean, >> just getting better and better, but episode four still to me is like it deserves the reason why we wanted to do an episode on is because it deserves more credit than I think it gets. It's like we talk about the beats of it like the tuna mount and the the club scene and like the iconicness of like the the needle drop, but if you look at it from top to bottom, the storytelling it does to introduce us to new characters in a way that feels >> organic and fleshed out and to like bring us on a two-year journey and a three minute montage. It's like it does so much and it doesn't get to me >> the spotlight that it does the same way that like five or >> reading it should because you can see in four you can really see the intentionality of the writing and the direction um based off of Rachel source material you can see that Jacob really had a very clear vision of what this show should look like um from top to bottom in episode 4 you really if you didn't catch the artistic vision from 1 to three episode 4 you really got who this director was who this writer was what he was trying to say so clearly and it painted so beautifully and so stylized. It's like it feels very much I'm like, "Oh, this is Jacob Tierney's signature." I feel like I'm like he is a director and a writer that has a very >> um unique style and you can see it and you really see it in episode 4.

[01:52:38]>> Yeah, it's such a great episode of television. it, as we said, I think during Devonte's segment, it opens up the world so much more because even outside of just Rose and Rose and Miles and you also get the key friendships that feel a little bit more lived in with like Hayden and Shane and then Satana and Ilia and then you're seeing more of who Shane is as like a athlete who is not only like the captain of his team, but he's more well known. You see him being approached in the aquarium.

[01:53:06]You see him having more endorsements like >> he is winning Exactly. Winning back to back.

[01:53:12]>> He's winning back to back, whatever cups they call it. You see Ilia in Russia with his father and like it just feels more lived in. And they were able to do that, mind you, with the shortest run time >> of the season. That is >> talk about it. Talk about it.

[01:53:28]>> Big brain. Big brain.

[01:53:30]>> Talk about it. And that show that also shows you the power of the montage because he packed so much into it. You saw the transition of time and it felt organic and it truly felt like they were growing up. They were maturing into themselves as adults, which is what makes the stakes even higher when you get to episode 4, midway point, and then the ending of it.

[01:53:53]>> And just like kudos to Jacob Tyranny, too, because I know that he doesn't waste time on that set, but he also does not waste time with us. Every scene is intentional. He does not is a beat that we need to see.

[01:54:04]>> Listen, >> there is no dead air. And that is just like incredible storytelling. So kudos to everyone involved on the production side. Um >> I we had so much fun doing this episode over the last few weeks.

[01:54:18]>> We we did. This episode was a labor of love and you know we are on the other side of it and we just loved every minute of it. Again, I want to thank everyone, Harrison, Devonte, Ashley, um, Daniela, and Alicia, our two fans, just for giving us their time and talking about the show that we all love so much.

[01:54:40]>> And if y'all made it this far, thank y'all.

[01:54:43]>> Yes, we are. We are very excited. We are very excited to see what you guys think about this episode in the comments. This is a superersized one. Listen, you guys say you like the long episodes, so get your snacks, get your drinks, >> and have a great time with this.

[01:55:00]>> And hopefully, you know, we can reheat episode 4 and talk about it in the comments. But >> would love that. Until then, >> until then, >> we'll see you guys in the next one. Have a good one. Bye.

[01:55:14]>> Bye.

[01:55:14]>> Bye.