Research by Dr. George Gonpu and Dr. Karl Johnson from Ramapo College of New Jersey reveals that remittances to Liberia (over $1 billion in 2024) significantly support economic development through business investment (over 60%), job creation, and household consumption, with older generations (40+) being primary contributors while younger generations are less likely to invest. The proposed $1 Diaspora Development Fund Bill, which would deduct $1 from every remittance transaction, faces criticism for being regressive (disproportionately affecting low-income senders who transfer more frequently), potentially reducing remittance flows, and lacking proper regulatory oversight, with experts recommending alternative approaches like government-backed bonds or voluntary investment programs instead of mandatory deductions.
Remittances Research and the $1 Diaspora Fund BillAñadido:
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>> Hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome to Focus on Liberia. My name is Dennis J and we're broadcasting from Atlanta, Georgia. In this edition of Focus on Liberia, we're going to be looking at remittances.
There being a project honored works or remittances research that is being done carried out by two outstanding professors. We're going to talk about that research. So, our topic tonight is remittances research and the $1 diaspora fund bill. There's a bill right now in the Liberian legislature saying that every time we send money to Liberia, there will be $1 deducted has a patriotic fee to fund development in the country. Well, Professor Dr. Carl Johnson and Dr. Judge Gonu have been carrying on research about remittances.
So I call them so they can tell us about their research and what they think of the bill that is currently in the lab senate. Let me welcome my guest uh professor car Johnson. He is a professor of history at the Ram I always missed the name of this school Ramu >> Ramu sometime I say Raoma at the college of New Jersey.
Welcome sir.
>> Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Focus on Liberia audience and the host uh Mr. Dennis Jaw. I appreciate it. Uh what we'll do here is uh just quickly uh uh go over our research and then as the host said that we'll discuss the uh the bill on remittances.
>> Thank you. And I let Dr. Johnson at the Labor Studies Association conference in Maryland and then in Massachusetts. Let me also welcome uh Dr. George Gump who along with uh Dr. Johnson came up with this research. Dr. Gump is also professor of economics at the Ramopou College in New Jersey. Welcome Dr. Gumpo.
>> Thank you Dennis. I'm happy to be here.
I'm not new here. And and uh yes, this topic of remittances is important to the economic development of Liberia and not only Liberia, it it is also important to uh many other developing countries as well. So I am happy for the opportunity to discuss the research and to also reflect on the proposed bill that uh is emerging from the Liberian Senate.
>> Thank thank you. Thank you. And uh as you said Dr. GU when we started this back in 2017 they were among he was one of those among our first uh guest to talk about the economic situation in Liberia. So thank you for coming back. So, as I said previously, we are bringing together two professors studying the development impact of remittances at the exact moment Liberia is debating a bill that would deduct $1 from every remittance transaction to create a diaspora development fund. This create a perfect public interest conversation because their research shows remittances already support business formation, human capital and investment. The bill proposes to formalize the aspir contribution through a mandatory $1 deduction. The key tension now is whether the bill enhances or disrupt the development role of the remittances. But so first let me give you the flow first of all before Dr. K give us a brief summary. What inspired this whole idea of doing any research on remittances?
Yeah. uh the the inspiration for uh remittances remittances is an important topic in economic development and it's being studied around the world and the data is also showing that the amount that is being remitted to developing countries uh has now exceeded the the development aid the amount of money going in as development aid and it also now exceeded the amount of foreign direct investment as well.
So that has inspired interest in looking at specific countries to see how they are being impacted by the remittances flowing in.
uh I did some work with uh one of my students on Nepal and that work was published and uh Dr. Johnson is someone who's uh is also interested in the economic development of Liberia as well as his history which is his uh concentration area and so and he and I are very good friends and we meet and discuss so many different topics and so I uh suggested to him uh instead of spending our time just discussing topics why don't you join his research let's look into another angle of remittances as they affect Liberia because he has a deep interest in the future of Liberia. And so that's how he started his work on uh focusing on Liberia.
>> Thank you. And Dr. Carl Johnson, for those who don't know you, we want to also say thank you for joining. This is your first time on Focus on Liberia. So on behalf of my crew, we want to offer you a glass of water to say welcome and just before you get into your short presentation, just tell us your interest in Liberia Labor Remittances. I know you talk about this at the LSA conference, but for those seeing you for the first time, just a brief introduction about Dr. Johnson.
>> Uh yes, again, thank you for having me.
here uh our focus on Liberia and thank you sir for having me here uh Mr. Dennis J and my esteemed colleague Dr. George Gon u you know the reason why that I are interested in Liberia and its development is that uh you know I've been teaching contemporary Africa for over 30 years and also I teach a course called Introduction to African Studies at Rampo College and uh one thing that I I was looking at in regards to Liberia this should wake everybody up is that in 2024 uh more than a billion dollars from your diaspora went into remittances into the country.
That's incredible. It's incredible amount >> for uh a country I believe uh in five five million people.
>> Uh and uh and like Dr. Gonu said that you know we all we discuss all types of topics in terms of development and I was fortunate enough to uh visit Liberia. I loved it. I loved the people and everything like that. So, you know, that's my connection in brief to uh Liberia and obviously a longtime member of the LSA where I where I met you.
>> Thank you. So, let's go briefly, you know, what you what you found in this research.
>> Okay, sir. If you want to put up the uh the PowerPoint briefly, I I'll go through it quickly.
>> Okay.
>> Because we don't want to bore you with a lecture here, >> but we'll go through very quickly. But to show you that uh we did do some uh deep uh research on it and we continuously uh also are looking for people to contribute. So we have a survey, we have a link uh it's anonymous. Anybody that wants to be included in this survey, we can uh send you the link to your email or we can send you the link to your your phone, your your smartphone. So just please contact uh focus in Liberia and our esteemed host. But uh again our focus were remittances.
Okay. And that was our focus there. And obviously if you can put it back up that's a detailed map of Liberia that you can uh go for it there. I'll try to uh control it a bit here. Uh again want you to look at the topic which is important. So uh it's remittances investments and economic development evidence from Liberia. So this is like a second part. So to let you know that we've been doing this for quite some time and uh we we uh prevented you know uh some of our findings uh just recently in April 2026.
And let me just go here again. Uh 2024 over a billion dollars of remittances.
And here are some of the uh types of things that we focused on uh previous studies. Dr. Gonpoo went on over that before. You know other other countries developing countries has used it. He discussed the significance of our study objectives of the study. But one thing our focus is job creation also with remittances. We're looking heavily at job creation, very good jobs.
We're not just looking at uh the type of jobs where what we call or just uh the gig jobs where everyone's selling the same stuff. We're looking at how remittances develop very good jobs and to see uh if if it's if it can spread or control. So we want to be helpmates to uh government officials and people in the government or the diaspora itself with this study and we we uh plan on uh publishing all our findings in the uh Liberian journal.
So uh this is our methodology.
All right. We have a link again.
Okay. We know the history of the diaspora and uh what's interesting is that it's not just the US the diaspora but we have folks from Australia obviously Europe is not a shock but uh we we have uh people from all over with the diaspora in terms of uh the contribution here. So um some things that uh Dr. the gonu focus on how how long have you reside resided outside library obviously is connected to the the civil disturbances all right uh and there's some other things I'm going to let uh gender breakdown age groups and I think I think that what's important here is uh businesses the business development I'm going to let Dr. Gonpool uh discussed this a bit because this is his expertise but over half of the the remittances is used to invest in the business in libraries and that's a good thing that's that's connected to uh job creation. Go ahead Dr. Gumple, you want to um >> Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Carl. Uh you still got the Okay. So, basically, as you can see here on this screen, uh in the survey, we asked whether or not people who have been remitting to Liberia have a business in Liberia.
And because sometimes people think that remittances are just for food and basic needs. So what we see in this study is that as you can see almost half of those people sending um sending remittances to Liberia said that they'd also have businesses or invest in a business in Liberia. So that's the mean finding implication of that and then uh then we ask approximately what share of your remittances basically the money you send um what proportion of it if it's a $100 what proportion of it uh goes to in as an investment fund towards some type of business towards the creation of some type of asset in Liberia. So my investment would mean creating some type of an asset that could provide services over the long term. So a business can be an owning a business can be an asset, building a house can be an asset, starting a farm could be an asset, building a church is an asset, and so forth. And so what you see in this in this um this chart is that you see a breakdown basically telling you that uh you know a good proportion of the the money going uh have gone into uh business creation.
So uh more than 50% more than in fact I think it's more than 60% of the money that have been sent have gone into business creation.
>> Yeah. And um and like I said we we we don't want to give a whole lecture uh you know on your show here but uh Dr. Gpool just uh like sum up uh you know like uh the jobs you remember like the breakdown in terms of how people um you know what type of jobs uh like uh like like you we had like a large portion of the investments are making I think on average like three to five jobs good jobs you know >> yeah I think Like so you know that that's extraordinary.
>> Yeah, we asked I think there was somewhere in the survey where we asked have your remittances or have the businesses that you started created jobs and a large percentage of the people say yes their business have created jobs. So we also ask how many jobs have you created and some some of the reports indicate about 20% have created five to 10 jobs.
Some of them have created more than 10 jobs and so forth. So we see that remittances have a potential for contributing to job creation depending on how the remittances are used.
We also asked what type of businesses are you investing in? And there were a variety of of businesses including entertainment, agriculture and other kinds of businesses as well.
>> So what are the most surprising findings so far? What surprise you?
Well, the the uh I was not too surprised because I suspected that uh that um this money that is going in which is now more than a billion dollars is not just for for >> consump consumption.
>> Yeah. It's not just for consumption. It is it is mainly I mean some of it is really going to create opportunities and this the the the the the um the pro the study is in progress but I think one of the things we now are looking for uh is to see how the amount of investments in the country the total amount of domestic investment in the country is influenced by the remittances that people are sending.
So, uh, I was not too surprised by what I saw, but I was encouraged. I was encouraged, highly encouraged that uh Liberians are not just sending money, but they are contributing to job creation in the country and they are uh using some of the money they sending to invest in the country and I think that uh policy makers are overlooking this and they tend to policy makers that tend to focus on foreign investment and creating incentives for foreign investors.
You see, and these are some of the things we want to address in in the research after we get more findings to make a case to the to the policy makers that to develop this country, we got to go beyond foreign investments, especially when it comes to investments that would create jobs. We got to go beyond foreign investments and to begin to to to create appropriate incentives that will encourage Liberians abroad to bring more funding into the country.
>> Yes. Also, Dr. Go tell them if uh you know if you don't laser focus on this issue very quickly that our study shows that the like the next generation of Liberians it drops down. Right. That's what we found like the next generations of the diaspora they they tend not to invest as much. Is that correct? That's why remember you were telling me that >> right? uh you know the further they get away from from uh >> uh the mother country >> so if by by you saying but by the third generation if there's a third generation diaspora you know you're not going to get as much >> and Dr. Dr. Johnson. There's a video of a u I would say second generation Liberian going around and she is opposed to sending money to Liberia. She said I don't know what's wrong with our parents. We don't have what we supposed to have. They are sending money back home.
>> So definitely the children that we having here, they're not going to do it.
>> Yes.
>> So Dr. So, did the research show the window we're talking about and how fast it's closing?
Dr. We >> we see we we look for we look at the demographic data as well >> and we see that there's an age distribution among the the among the um people who are remitting money and we see that the older generation the old people o you know people uh 40 and above but less than 65 is the window where a significant part of the of the um remittances are coming from and those who are investing there as well. So the younger ones are not sending as much money.
So that means that we have to we have to turn these investments I mean these remittances into investments now. The younger one, the next generation are more likely to help the country through taking vacations.
>> That's right.
>> And we build the infrastructure. They can come and go to the beaches. They can they can go to do surfing and and and and have fun. But they are not going to be we don't expect them to be sending money as we do now to just say, "Oh, I'm sending money for my for my grandfather.
I'm sending money for my grandmother, you know, to eat to do this." That's that you know that is less likely to happen as these children become more westernized and they are also facing challenges uh you know with cost of living in the diaspora.
>> Yeah. That's why we're looking at also the tourist industry. So if you build up like a a come back to Africa tourist industry and you know you you can possibly stretch it longer where you can get the people that left they can come back instead of always going to Disney World maybe you know like twice in a lifetime come and go back to check out >> Liberia and he might fall back in love with it right instead.
>> Yeah.
>> So you know I say oh you know that's be beautiful. I don't know why my pants little up here. So that's what we're hoping like sort of like a year of return, >> right?
>> Yeah.
That's trending very good. I think that's >> what we're we're looking for. And the the other diaspora can help as well. So you know that's why so many that brings in a lot of uh unexpected income.
>> Yeah. that there there are many in the African diaspora including Americans or African-Americans who who are interested in historical tourism to sort of visit to better understand their history and it can be very helpful to to building self-esteem into doing so many things.
So clearly Liberia giving its own history and its own origin has a huge potential for for benefiting from this kind of tourism.
And Liberia also is is is a is a foundation is one of the foundations for pan Africanism, >> you know, pan African philosophy.
And I mean there's potential there for building a pan African museum that uh people will be eager to visit and to really get deeper into the history of the um African diaspora.
>> So there's there's a lot of potential >> right on this can form part of your recommendation at the end. But if someone asks you right now, how do remittances contribute to investment >> and entrepreneurship in Liber? First of all, before I even get there, do you have a way of telling in your research that okay, this is how much money that is going to school? You know, people want to go to school, people want to learn new skill because sometime investment can be longterm, right? So you are sending people to college and when they finish this, what they going to do? Do you have a way of looking at that?
Not yet. Not yet. We haven't determined uh a breakdown of what percentage of the remittances invested that goes to education that goes to medical that goes to entertainment.
We don't have that detail yet.
But what we have now is basically some reports on the amount people have sent in which kind of businesses are they investing in. We haven't really looked at the figures in terms of the actual amount >> that is spent on education spending you know in different areas but I mean the country is is facing some risk because the population is young and they are being encouraged to to invest in education in terms of their time going to these institutions.
Uh you heard at the at the program over there that about they have about what 69 uh institution of higher learning in the country and then there are another 81 colleges and university waiting to be open and the ones there are already expanding but no work has been go has gone into what happened to these students after they graduate. Where are the jobs? The government is is is unable to hire all these people and the private sector has not grown as much to create jobs to exor these uh these graduates.
Uh in fact across Africa there's a huge you know job deficit in terms of the need for jobs and the number of people who are ready to work.
So uh that presents a very serious uh security risk if you have a large percent of your population very young people who have no means in terms of employment.
>> So we think that uh the work we're doing now can contribute to bringing solution to the job you know the the job deficit problem.
>> Yeah. And we're also looking so it doesn't be always centralized in one place. We we're trying to look we we can see trends where we can offer maybe get people to offer incentives to decentralize. That means that uh like the countries that do real well, they just don't have one metropole or two metroples. They might have three or four, five, six. That's where you want to get to. or you can have the larger towns that can have some good jobs. So that that's what we have. We want jobs.
We're looking at the better quality jobs, not just the jobs you get where everyone's selling the same stuff or stuff like that, you know. So that that's what we're looking at. know we really think that if if we laser focus on job creation and we get real um ground level information from real librarians and uh let's get as much as we can and take our time. I think that we can be very helpful and uh I think that um we can uh get this generation this diaspora to uh maximize what they can do to push uh Liberia forward.
>> Is there is there a downside to remittances? Say some are saying remittances create this dependency syndrome and we saw that with after the war where there have been nos and so when those NGO left even today you want to start a business people think it's free you know is is so do we have a downside to remittance especially if if we look in the near future we see that this is not going to continue at the same rate right it's going to drop and what is the downside to the remittances is if any >> yeah I think I think there could be a downside if remittances are just basically supporting consumption just supporting basic needs.
That is why this kind of research and the findings and the policy recommendation that point towards encouraging people in the diaspora to consider putting a bigger and bigger proportion of their remittances into enterprise creation investment opportunities because whenever you create an investment or when you create an enterprise you automatically create a chance for people to earn for themselves to go to work and not just not just uh expect to just basically be receiving uh remittances as a gift. See, so then at a certain point, uh, you can begin to match what they're doing to say if the business generate this amount, x amount of dollars for each additional dollar in income or profit a business make, that will encourage me who's making this remittance to to send you more money so that your business can grow. See and so in that way remittances uh would have a positive and sustainable impact.
However, if it is just for consumption, it can still be helpful to the economy, but it can also undermine uh labor supply because if someone receives say $300 from his from his uh parents or relatives in in the diaspora, and that money is coming in regularly for for for just as a gift.
Then to get that person to work for you now, you have to pay them more than $300.
For a number of people, they will not look at as a supplementary income. They say, "Well, I'm already getting $300. It covers my rent. It covers my food. So then why should I take another job that will work me for eight hours a day and pay me only $200?" You see? So it could it could have a there can be a downside if it discourages work.
>> Did you look at >> that's why we need to put it we need to invest.
>> Did you look did you look at other countries what what they doing and what labor is doing differently.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a historical models where large diasporas left. I use the Irish and Irish went to Australia. They they they had to come to the United States because they were colonized. Now the people for Ireland, they only come to America to vacation and go back because Ireland is the first they were basically developed by remittances.
people sending money back, people traveling back and forth and there's lasted like uh like intergenerational, you know, there was a drop off obviously, you know, people but but um people in Ireland, they only come to America just to uh vacation there. They don't want to Ireland that their standard living is just as good United States.
So uh and obviously uh you you have uh maybe larger countries like India, they've been very s very successful in certain sectors where they're on the cusp. India is on the cusp of being um you know one of the especially in the 21st century you expect them to be along with China and but basically much of theirs is diaspora. Theirs is mostly diaspora. If you look at uh mo much of their investment comes from the they having so many people that were pushed out populationwise all all around the world. So uh and they have all different types of incentives.
So you know we have a lot of lot of good models and the thing I always tell George I reminded that um you know we love Liberia and Sierra Leon which is good. I mean, Liberia, you only have five million, man. That's just like, you know, you just gonna develop New York City, man. That could be done. You know, that could be done within 10, 15 years, you know. So, I mean, if you talking about population wise, I mean, you know, it could be done within a lifetime.
>> Yeah. And I think I think that uh I have not seen much in the literature that looks at remittances at a micro level.
So what we're doing for Liberia or on Liberia is pretty much uh one of the research, you know, study on a on a cutting edge where it where you dig deeper to look at actual families and individual and how those remittances are affecting them at the micro level.
Most of these studies have just done it at a macro level and just say what happened to the whole country GDP as remittances come in and so many studies have shown that GDP tends to grow as the country get more remittances but I haven't seen studies that show what happens to small business investments.
uh at the household level and what happens to employment at individual level as as uh remittances flow into the country.
So in that sense I think that this research is really on a cutting edge to be one of the few or one of the studies to begin to look at the impact at the micro level and we're also uh calling for people uh that watch Focus on Liberia to participate. So if you can send a email if you want to participate with to with our survey we would be very thankful and if you can send an email to focus on Liberia or to the host the great host Dennis Ja and he'll forward all the information to Dr. Gonu and uh we will allow you to do the survey. again is completely anonymous and you'll actually enjoy it uh and you'll be very helpful in in terms of uh helping us to be help >> for development. Yeah, I agree with that. and and and definitely is is um we really want the the whole nation, you know, the diaspora to to really uh be a part of this because we want for strong policy recommendation for incentives to bring more remittances into the country for investment purposes and for job creation purposes to be done. And the governor of Liberia uh is more likely to to um give us better attention and give our policy recommendation more attention depending on the number of people who participate.
At this time the sample size is really small and when sample size is still small I mean is is is good enough for technical studies but for a whole nation uh the the number of of of participants we have so far is is is uh is inadequate. we only the the the preliminary studies that we've have now that we're talking about had only 35 uh responses.
See, so if we can increase that to to several hundreds or thousands, I think uh it will be much stronger.
>> Thank you. And I I participated, you know, full disclosure.
>> Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I have a my final question to you is what are you going to do with your findings at the end of this?
Talk to me about the future of this research.
>> Yeah, I think the future the future looks promising because I have been called upon and I'm interested in uh expanding my investment in the country to myself.
And so, uh, I'm in talks with some Liberians to collaborate. And this is what we want to encourage because if you are remitting 5,000 a year, somebody's remitting 2,000, 3,000, we can form corporate entities where people can buy shares in those corporations to bring some of that money together so that uh we can have a bigger impact in terms of the the businesses we create. So we already have some businesses in mind. We have some sectors in mind already and we're having conversation among some Liberians who find this promising and they want to be a part of it. So there are a number of different Liberian groups that have talked about some of these things already and we want to to to supplement that by creating additional groups and to encourage other groups to form.
Uh Liberians have complained a lot about foreign domination in the in the economy.
the Lebanese, >> the the the um the Syrians and some other groups, >> even some other groups from from from um from neighboring equas countries. Right.
>> When you look at the financial se when you look at the financial sector for example uh all of the banks in Liberia right now >> to the best my knowledge there is no financial institution in Liberia I mean uh I'm talking about like a banking institution or lending institution that is Liberian own to the best my knowledge >> now. All right. So collaboration or cooperation among Liberians can can can lead to the ownership of some of of some of these kinds of institutions because >> Thank you. If the citizens own some of these institutions, I think these institutions go a long way in contributing to development as opposed to to just always just waiting for foreign investors to come to lend us money, foreign investors to come to open hardware store, to open restaurant, to start restaurants and other kinds of of of needs.
Additionally, uh I think we emphasize in our presentation over there that when it comes to job creation, small businesses are much more likely to create new jobs than very large businesses because more and more the large businesses are turning to more sophisticated technology, robots and all of these different kinds of things. they can't afford it because they are multi-million dollar businesses.
See, billion dollar businesses. So, they're not, you know, they're bringing in uh better technology that doesn't require too much labor. And our problem in the in the in the Liberian economy, the major problem now is job creation and job deficit.
So, we really want Liberians to to buy into this so that the policy makers can pay attention and uh and so that we can work together to create incentives for Liberians to to become active in ownership and investment in the economy.
Thank >> Thank you.
Thank you. That that takes us to our next topic which is the diaspora development fund. You may have heard of it. The diaspora development fund. For those who don't know, let me introduce it. There's a bill currently.
And so this bill called for the creation of the diaspora development fund DDF.
Let me read a little bit. There is hereby established a statutory account to be known as a diaspora development fund which shall be meeting at the central bank of Liberia. This is the bill and there's a group here called the diaspora Liberian development initiative. They are the one that sponsoring this submitted this to the lobbying the legislature to put this on the floor. So it says the fund shall be administered by the central bank of labor as custodian only in accordance with its statutory mandate under the amendment and restatement of 2020 central bank of labor act. The beneficial ownership direction and control of the funial vest in the diaspora liiberian development initiative on behalf of the Liberian diaspora. Upon the coming into force of this act, the central bank of labor board of directors shall appoint one representative to sit on the L DLDI board of directors to serve in a advisory capacity with no voting rights. The central bank governor and the CBL representative on the DLDI board shall ensure safekeeping and management of the fund in escro account.
It says sources of the fund shall include but not limited to the diaspora development fund collected under this act voluntary contribution mandatory remittances collected by licensed financial institution grants donation etc. And what are we given? There's a application of$1 US dollar deduction.
The deduction of one United States dollar shall apply to each remittance, bank transfer, money transfer, or any other form of financial transfer, including any future or emerging transfer mechanism made to the Republic of Liberia, irrespective of the transfer amount, the sender's identity, or the financial institution facilitating the transaction. For the avoidance of doubt, the $1 remittance deduction shall be applied per transaction, not per amount transfer. This transfer, this means the deduction shall be assessed based on the frequency of remittances sent to Libero rather than the monetary value.
Uh so, and there's a lot on the bill, but that's just the summary. So in in essence, anytime you send money to LRO, regardless of your nationality, there will be a $1 deduction and that amount will be put in escrow at the city the central bank of Liberia.
This fund will be administered by the diaspora librarian development initiative and this $1 is going to go towards development. the board will sit down and identify a project maybe hydro project or railroad system or rehabilitate the port of Greenville my port.
So that's that's that's what I had uh the president of the DDI the other day and we went back and forth explaining that. So uh Dr. Johnson, I want to get your take on this uh is is this develop is this enhancing the work that you're doing or undermining it?
Okay, I'm uh going along with uh Dr. Gonu like uh anytime you uh tax something, it's always a negative thing.
So uh you know, I'm just worried about that tax. It's more of a tax even if it's a dollar you know for people who give small amounts you know that uh you know that that could be it's a almost like a negative type of thing but I but I do like that there is a a focus or that people are looking at remittances but I I think that there's definitely needs to be more deliberation on it uh possibly uh more compete heating type of engines on a way to attract investment with bonds. Maybe look at maybe, you know, some the ability for maybe on a county level because you have a multiple counties, people to write their, you know, develop bonds for some type of competition and laser focus more on a micro level to make sure that these things are going for job development and some type of mechanism to measure things. I mean I think that's >> that's always an issue some type of mechanism sometimes we just need to start small >> but is the problem start a bit small and >> Dr. John said the intention right to develop would it be better if it were voluntary? Is it the mandatory part because you call it tax? Is that that man being a mandatory $1? Is that the problem?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we we we particularly like uh more voluntary because even now you know even our study is just showing voluntary people people are just giving. They're developing jobs without without the help of the government already. we found out, you know, people. So, um, you know, I I I do like that the government is focusing on it. Uh, you know, I do give them credit for that, but I I'm sure that I saw some type of response, some type of eight point response and it seemed pretty good for people to um, you know, deliberate deliberate more on it. You know, this is just my my take from as a as an outsider.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh you know, I might be more because uh me and Dr. Gulu discuss this a lot of time with development. So uh maybe I'm a bit more biased towards what Dr. Gulu would say. Maybe good.
What what do you think of the u of this $1 deduction?
I mean that's the song we've been singing like bro is not developed. Now there are some people saying hey you got to have a skin in the game you're giving $100 $200 to Liberia every time $1 is quite negligible for you to contribute towards development and if we say voluntary maybe people may not be able to to pay so why don't we say hey let's let's do this for the sake of the country what's your take >> yeah I think uh is being presented as a way of contributing to development in the country.
However, the approach to it I think is counterproductive.
People are bringing money to your country. The thing is, I think there are so many people in Liberia who do not see the direct benefit of these remittances that are coming in.
Maybe economists have not really, you know, share with them how they already benefiting from what people in the diaspora are doing.
the Liberian currency today, okay, will be a lot weaker if you cut that remittance, the amount of remittance, if you cut it in half or you you cut it by 75%.
The currency will crash. The balance of payment of Liberia is highly supported by these remittances because these remittances are bringing foreign exchange to the country.
The interest rate that is being charged per loan that people get in our country will be a lot higher if this inflow was not coming in.
So if you go to borrow and you paying 15% you're paying 15% now because all the remittances is coming in. If there was no remittances not coming in your interest rate would have been 25%.
So you see these remittances are helping people uh in so many ways that they might not realize.
Additionally, these people in the diasporas, if we do some survey of new constructions in Liberia today, new businesses in Liberia today, you will see that especially that have been done by Liberians, you will see that most of the most valuable ones, the best homes, most of them, more than 80% of them are connected to people in the diaspora >> and they're bringing these funds to build these houses >> and build these these um businesses through remittances to the country.
>> Yeah, man. That's a mult right when those houses are built >> the more of those houses you get built these people are paying property taxes and they're paying for electricity.
Those electricity comes with tariff. The electricity belong to government right so who are who are paying those light bills who are paying the property taxes the same people in the diaspora so they don't see the direct some of them do not see the direct relationship they just see the money coming in and they say all these monies are going to their families it's not coming to me but you have had a a much weaker currency right now you're paying 180 Liberian dollars per one US dollar.
If there were no remittances coming to the country, the currency could have been it could be 300 Liberian dollars to one US dollar. And that's not going to be good for you if you're getting paid in US dollar. So I think a number of the these policy makers no one has gone I don't think anyone has gone deeply into how these remittances are helping them now because I've talked to some people and they say but it's not helping us it's just going to their family but then when you start going through the exchange rate you know transmission you start going through the property tax you start going through you know the the supply of electricity and the payment for electricity and all of that and these are means through which the government is collecting funds. You see then they begin to say oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh yeah yeah you know then they begin to know but for right now they think it's only going to the people who receive those things who receive those remittances. So when you impose a you know this kind of fee uh it also have uh uh you know another dimension which which is kind of retrogressive.
Okay. In a sense that those who are much richer and can send bigger amounts at one time will pay less.
Right? So if I'm a high income earning person and I send a $1,000, I pay $1.
But a low income person who want to send $1,000 and they decide that they they will send $250 every week, you know, for four weeks. They send $1,000, they will pay $4.
you know, a young person, you know, a single mother who left her children at home. She got five children at home and she's in the diaspora trying to make ends meet.
Okay. She wants to send $100 or $125 for those five children, but she doesn't want to send the entire money to one child >> because it will be cheaper to send it to one child so the child can divide it.
But once you send it to that one child, then the other children start complaining that they didn't receive their share, right? Because the corruption step in. So now that woman decide, okay, that that 125, I'm going to split it among the five children, you know? So that five remittances and then she will pay $5.
You see? So you can see that um that that whole kind of structure they're proposing is regressive and that's not a regressive fee structure or regressive tax system is not good for development.
You want if you going to be if you're going to do taxes those taxes must be progressive.
You see, and we're talking about a situation now where the high income earners in the country do not do not pay income tax.
>> Yeah.
>> Do we pay do they have do they file income taxes in Liberia?
>> I don't think so.
>> Okay. The only taxes they collecting their own at the income level is on payroll. So if you're not on payroll and you're multi-millionaire, you know, you don't pay any income tax.
So they're not even looking into that and they're talking about, you know, charging $1 per remittance.
I mean, it's a good thing for the for the for the for the for the diaspora and the government to work together on development programs. That's fine. But this is not the way you do it. Right? if they have a project for example let's say we want to make a a pan African museum want to build a pan African museum that will bring tourists into the country that will create you know revenue that those revenue can then be used for education what have you government come and say okay for this p African museum we putting up $2 million we are calling on the diaspora to raise another 5 million million dollar so that we can build the 10 African museum present it to the diaspora and say hey this is a $7 million project things are tough on us but we are putting fire 2.5 million we want you guys to raise another five million decide among yourself how you going to do it but I don't think the way to to do it is say you're going to be imposing a fee on bringing money into the country so that mean you're basically telling know to bring less money in because whenever you bring money in, you're going to be paying them, you know, a fee.
>> Would that work if voluntarily?
>> Is what >> would that work if people will voluntarily give the $1?
Well, I mean uh I don't if you if whether it is voluntary. If it is voluntary, why should it be proposed by a senator who who nobody knows whether he paying income tax or not?
>> But but you can you can only do the bill you can only do the bill through his a senator or a representative. So what other way can we do it? So it's not the senator. They are Liberians. They diaspora Liberian development initiative.
They wrote they wrote it and they have to do it through a lawmaker.
>> Well, I mean, but they think it's the lawmaker who who who who who who need is on the bill and who presents it on the floor and and if it passes, it's it's he who is putting that forward. Right. So basically he he too who is bringing forward a bill to for other people to be charged have to have skin in the game. Right? So how much of his income how much of his income how much of his income is he paying in taxes beyond the payroll tax? These are some of the issues that Liberians are asking.
because people know how much they're getting in terms of salary and income and we know they're not filing income taxes.
We know that beyond the payroll tax if not on payroll for for the for it to be automatically deducted will not be they will not be um paying any income tax.
>> Let's look at the economics. What what will be the economic impact of a military $1 deduction?
>> The economic impact uh would just be if if if that $1 accumulate to a billion dollars, that mean you you've imposed a billion dollar tax on a diaspora, right?
So that billion dollar that billion dollar that you impose could have been could have been uh directed to other things that that uh the the the remittances could have gone to including some of these kind of investments we're talking about.
>> Yeah. But but I mean I don't think I don't think uh I think when you have a billion dollars sitting there and we use that to build one hydro project in S.
Paul or Kavala that's a good thing. I mean we would say well if if I didn't send that dollar maybe I was just going to buy Macdonald. So now I have I have a hydro project in Kafala is in the Kafala River that's going to supply the whole of Southeast with electricity. I mean, what's wrong with that? That's a good thing.
>> Yeah, I agree with you. But usually they do it with bonds >> where uh even if you get low rate bond one or 2% you can uh you can get like something back or even if you're contributing to the country usually they would do a bond instead like if you like that India diaspora they they do that or the other diasporas they just do a bond they don't impose a tax. That means that if you buy the bond, even if you get a, you know, you get the money back, your initial investment plus 2%, you're getting something, you know, uh, and that's more what's called Dr. Gopo would say progressive rather than uh, you know, taking it out.
You know, the dollar dollar does not seem a lot maybe to someone that's in Australia or America, but from my understanding, a dollar can is a lot of money, you know, can be a lot of money for someone and particular types of countries. you know, uh, you know, you know, that can, you know, that a dollar can, uh, sometimes make or break a few people.
So, I I think it's the way that it does it. Like I, like I said, I like that the government is focusing on these things, but I just I think it's just more of a discussion on how you going to do it.
And I I like competition, you know? I I like competition. I think you can do that better with bonds. I think that that's more traditional where if you invest uh even uh you know one you get one or two% back.
I mean I think that's better and you you can laser focus the bond too and maybe you can do like some type of county bond so that uh the investment will be decentralized. I know that they're they're trying to do if you get all that um money I I just like I think with some type of competition you know not me personally that's why >> okay these people so Dr. What do you got to say about that >> right these people who have uh proposed this fund they are the one who are going to be sitting on a board to direct those funds right >> yeah yeah they said they one person from each county to be on the board.
>> Okay. Who's going to vet them? Who's going to vet them?
>> They're going to have election.
>> Election.
>> Election.
>> So the senators and represent. Okay. So the senators and representative you have now were elected and they are the people managing the budget and are Liberians happy with how they managing the billion dollar budget.
>> So So are you saying the process the process could be faulty, right? the process will have problem but the intent and the overarching goal is good thing right the goal unit and I think that we don't what they're thinking I think the approach they're thinking of >> judge a project by the intention judge a project by the outcome you judge a project by history okay Liberia had a national savings bonds >> hundreds of millions of dollars were raised through that bond more.
What happened to to to those who put money into the bond?
Have they given that money back? They got the record of all the people who put the money in the bond. You build credibility by paying those people or paying their families. You don't do that, right? You got all that record.
You think people have forgotten then you're going to So when you're doing something like this, it's fine from naked volunteering people who want to participate in that stuff. going to let them put their money in it. They are going to personally vet you and they know what risk they're taking. But I just gave you the example of a lowinccome person who has to send money several times >> who will end up paying a lot more to that fund.
But then a richer person who can send money only one time a month will only pay $1. You the poor person who send money every week. You waiting for your pay before you send money. You sending money five times a month or six times a month because you got children there.
They get stranded. They need transportation. They need $10. They need $5 on and on because you got children in school. You end up paying a lot more to that fund.
>> So how you going to to create a process of developing the country which is not fair? You distribute the burden unfairly. Then you you got private citizen who nobody know who they are.
Nobody know they never been vetted and what have you. They coming up with this idea that oh we should raise this fund and will be somewhere and they will go and create a group of people who will who will then be managing that fund and you thinking that uh this is the way you want to develop the country.
So who is going to vet them? The Senate is there right now vetting people who go to run the system and we see the outcome. So it's the same people you you know you think Liberians are going to say okay we're going to now voluntarily contribute this money we sit at the central bank and these group of private citizens who have not even presented the idea in the diaspora present go around in the diaspora present the idea to your people and and and and make it popular among you know the people in in the diaspora and then you get you know you get you know uh uhh contributions in terms of ideas as to how to go about it because the goal is for development.
It's not so much to raise money because raising the money is just the first step is about how do we develop this country?
How do we create infrastructure? How do we support education? This is what they're saying. So is this the way to support education and and bring development to the country?
>> I want to see those people. I want to see those people who who are behind this and let them let them uh let's let's you know let let's see where they're coming from with this.
>> All right Dr. Yakas if you listen Dr. GU wants to see you. Let me welcome Professor Larry Kennedy, you know, or Larry Kung Kennedy.
>> Before the war, he was Larry Kennedy when April 198 hiding. I call myself Larry Kennedy.
>> I can't have all you all you southeasterners looking for me.
>> Professor Kenned, you can move your body up a little bit. Let's see your your your passful side. But but welcome to the welcome to the show. Before you come in, let me ask Dr. Ku because we got to fix it now because I see that uh somebody said the road to hell is paid with good intentions. But these guys want to build something, right? So how do we fix it? But keep keep your thought. Let me get Dr. Professor Kennedy's view on the lab diaspora fund.
>> Look, let me say this. It's a bad idea.
The people who came up with it, they have maybe some bad intentions because they must have been sitting around maybe drinking some corona or feeling happy about something and they say, "Hey, you know, let's just come up with a fund. Maybe we can collect a dollar for everybody in the diaspora."
Somebody say, "Yeah, they ran away to the Senate figuring somebody in the Senate would support it," which in fact they did. It's an absolute nonsense.
And the fact that even calling it a fund is a disclaimer because it's a tax. It's not a fund. They're not investing anything. They're clueless about investing. And this is just another way to hit people off with some tax that's going to end up in the state coffers and nobody will have a clue what happened to it. If you don't remember, remember at one time the ambassadors from several countries hit Samuel Twitter and was asking him to refund money that was going into some consolidated account for investment opportunities for um for you know like an investment fund >> and time to say well everybody's doing it. The money comes in here and we take it to support the budget and they do a whole bunch of shenanigans with it.
Right. The other thing is Liberia is one of those places where people rarely get prosecuted for economic sabotage.
Let me know the last time somebody got prosecuted and went to prison because if you're putting money somewhere where you don't have strong regulatory agencies, right? Financial sector especially financial system in developed countries have about six parts. You know, you have your financial instruments, your financial markets, you have your regulatory framework, which is important. There was a reason why the Federal Reserve Bank system started back in what 1913 or so. And even by the time the stock market crashed like in August or so of 1929, they found out that people were gaming the system.
People were gaming the system. So, people were gaining the system. You know, that's why you have the financial sector that's one of the most heavily regulated in this country. A place like Liberia, there's a reason why you only have eight countries in Echoas that have sovereign debt ratings. Liberia is not one of them. Because Liber have bad credit.
Liberia cannot go raise money using Euro bonds. They got bad credit.
So you end up giving money to a bunch of people who knows nothing about finance, saying they're going to invest it. Come on, man. You don't blame them for suckering you and the money disappearing because you got to prosecute them. If it were an investment fund that's different because then they fall under the opices of the SEC uh FINRA the Federal Reserve system because there was a reason why the former minister of Mozanique Michael uh what is it Chang was arrested and brought to the US and was put in the same prison like Maduro up in New York because when you use the US financial system for fraud. They're going to come and grab you no matter where you are.
But these guys are calling it a fund, but it's not technically a fund. It's a tax. You can't jail them if they steal their money. So, man, it's a bad idea. I hope people are listening. If they decide to pass this as a law, go to what Dr. Ko said earlier, it's going to lead to alternative means of getting money to the country. Yeah, >> it would absolutely create some black market or some underhanded deal that would have the total opposite of what they're trying to accomplish because now the government will collect less um less money legally. They will collect less money because people will start using alternative means to send money to the country.
>> They didn't have no feasibility studies.
These people are financial people, you know. So, yeah, I wanted to hop in the call and just going to share that man. I hope I hope it does not pass because it's going to do the opposite of what it's intended to do. In fact, the World Bank then put out a paper back in 2017 preaching exact this preaching against this exact scheme because other countries had tried it and it backfired.
So where these people got their idea, they must have been sitting there training some Hennessy, you know, and felt good about themselves and say, "Hey, let's go pass a law in Liberia."
That's where we find ourselves, guys.
>> All right.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's disappointing to to have a senator jumping on such a bandwagon.
And that's part of the reason why we have, you know, legislator and the Senate. This would be advising the executive and and and and and providing oversight over the executive. This thing is The fact that this thing is a bad idea is a low hanging fruit. The fact that they could not even see it and they're jumping on that B where going to push it forward. I mean it just it just tells you I mean what else can they do?
>> What else can they do?
>> Thank you. I will bring in the the progenitor of this bill, the president of the Diaspora Liberian Development Initiative, Dr. Prince Jakersonen.
Dr. Dr. Jakerson say he know you want something. Anyway, >> Dr. Yakas, welcome to the broadcast. Uh, you got >> Thank you. Thank you.
And you know in my village there's a there's a saying you know I don't know how to translate it in English you know but if you literally if you say if you translate it literally it will lose its meaning but it says the water that come from the frog mouth that can be cold. So we want to get the water from the front.
Dr. please I'll give you three minutes to explain about the bill the the aspirant development initiative. Why you say people should pay $1? Is it your tax? What are if your intentions are good? The approach you are taking. Why you decide to take this approach? And what do you hope to accomplish? Two minutes.
Thank you so much. This was impromptu but sincerely I have been listening to uh first I want to say uh thank you for the research. I would really like to be part of that research to probably contribute towards our research. It's a great endeavor for country we all mean well for Liberia. uh if I see anyone who is doing something in the interest of Liberia, I will always like to join our president like Dualu. Dualu has a very good dream about Liberia where he's asking people to invest into his business, you know, where there will be investment return, that's a very good idea. Anyone who is doing anything for Liberia uh that is meaningful, I'm always willing to jump on board. Now, let me talk about this about this bill.
Uh so, it was 2019. Before 201 I live here in the United States for like almost 17 years. So I went to several diaspora meetings. I watch several diaspora platforms and I saw Liberians lamenting that our country is not developed. Yes, that's government responsibility.
But again, we as citizens of Liberia, we all have to contribute. And given that we are now putting resources together to help enhance government effort. Even though from one way or the other we are enhancing government effort by sending by remitting money to Liberia to our loved ones but most of the money already going toward household consumption. Even though we agree it still find it way in the macroeconomy of Liberia. Uh but they are going to to household consumption to individuals. Right. So what can we do collectively as Liberians in a diaspora to help enhance government efforts? So I brought this idea that given that we all remade money to Liberia, one of we deduct just a dollar from every remittance.
So I share the idea with my wife and after 5 years I share with another fellow who bought the idea. He say hey let's open a one hour group right now and begin to engage like diasporians let's see what are the B idea and we did open a one for sake history is good I want you to go straight to the bill if you don't mind >> so so the bill we so that's why if I guess I to the bill so we incorporated organization and then we decided how we going to collect this money so we decided to draft a bill So it took us a while to complete our bill because there was reheated arguments every time we met sometimes 6 hours discussing the bill.
So we decided that it has to be uh uh a flat rate not a progressive tax system where the uh the higher money you send to Liberia the more you pay. I say if we do that they're going to discourage people from sending a lot of money to Liberia because they feel the more money they send we're going to charge them higher fees. So let's just do it at minimum level because some people say hey if someone send $500 they should be able to pay more than the person who is paying $100 who sending $100.
So the debate went on back and forth. We finally agreed that is dollar every time we remotend but is the frequency of your remitting.
How many times you send the money to Liberia. So if you send money uh three times a month to Liberia, you pay you contribute $3 towards the DDF fund. In fact, we call it pay trust fund. We call it patri trust fund because we love our country want to give back. Someone said this a tax. It's not a tax. Uh a tax you can go define it. A tax has to find its way. That money is generated revenue for the government and the money must find its way in the government. budget but this one is non a government revenue so we don't classify it as a tax we call it a patriotic trust fund uh UNDP can come up with the analysis those are human beings okay we all went to school and we learn it we all can define situation depending on how we see it right someone wrote it you know UNP board that when you take money for some is tax that's how to learn it that's how the honor story I am a lawyer I want to school in Liberia law school in Liberia law school in America So I understand basically when I'm saying something I know what I'm saying I it's not a tax it is called a patriotic trust fund because it's not going to find its way in the government budget government is not going to expend this money they are helping us uh to help they're helping to collect this money by passing law that anyone not only Liberians but anyone in the diaspora who remains money to Liberia we will deduct a dollar so that to be law in Liberia. Just like when you go to Ghana, they send you money, you send someone USD, the person receive it in cities. Just like in Kra, you carry your USD, they're not taking your USD, you got to convert it in euro. I mean, I got I got so angry that I have my $100. I went to buy extension and they gave me $75. I said, for what? 75, which was less. I didn't know what it was 75, but it was less than the 75 US. It was less less than 100 US unfair angry but that's your country that's your law when you say it's unfair every country must have a law so Liberia can have a law that anyone who remains waring to Liberia whether you Nigerian a Ghanaian and American Chinese will deduct a dollar towards development in Liberia no one is going to say you violating people rights okay but we are joining on the Liberians in a diaspora tomorrow that hey let us come together to help develop Liberia.
This money can go beyond buying a generator to power Liberia. We can build medical hospitals all across the country dialysis equipment to help lot we can do with this money. We can be vocational institution to train.
>> The intent for the money is good. One last thing before I bring in the rest of the panel is the consultation. Did you get a buy in from Diaspora Liberians?
>> Yes, we did. We consulted ULA. We consulted ELA that European Federation of Liberian Association. We consulted in fact their president is on our board the fr from there. Jim went to Australia.
>> Yeah. LQ uh Liberia Association in Queensland, James Andrew, he's on our board. He's the president for them. He's also on our board. Then pressure dramatic from Canada. Uh the president, she's the president for the Liberian Association in Canada. She's on our board representing Bomi County. Just our friend Mesa representing Mos County.
James Andrew representing Bon County. We also have James Sewa Kennedy who is the president for lofa for the federation of lofa association in the Americas. He representing Rufa County on our board.
We have Friday man. He is the chairman for the OM organization of Liberian in Minnesota. Right. So he's on their board as a chair. He's also on our board representing ground group and we has uh Co Man. He is the president for the Liberian Association in I in India. He's on our board representing Mibi County.
So we got cross sessions of Liberians on our board.
is representing Nema County because he is on the board for the NEMA association in Dakota. So we want people in the diaspora. Right now we appointed but eventually in the future there will be election. We appointed based on recommendation right now because they will make decision as to how this money will be used in Liberia not the Liberian government. This money is not going to find its way in the government budget and that's why we have straight law in the in our bill that he who touches the money will go to prison with the first thing is you go to prison for 10 years you will restitute the money and you'll be found 250,000 now it's in the bill the bill is very good people have not read the bill but they taking up running with bill is a task we want to you know exploit Liberians we want to >> thank you Dr. Johnson, do you have a question? I could see questions written on your face if you can unmute yourself.
>> Yeah, the question I did have is well, why why uh haven't you considered uh developing a bond like uh maybe like a bond instead of uh imposing this type of fee? I mean, it's just a question.
>> Yeah, that's very good. that will be part of what we will be doing. In fact, someone suggested all day when I appear on the closing argument show the guy said why can't we be our diaspora bank then to keep our money with the central bank that was a great idea we want you guys to come on board we don't have monopoly over idea we only brought this idea for all of you to come on all Liberians in the diaspora you know so this is how a bill this is how laws are made in every country including America Liberia is an exception so a citizen could write a bill or and all could write a bill. You have to find someone in the house, in the lower house or the upper house to sponsor that bill. Who we found was senator Joseph Jala, >> the senior senator of Loa County. But he told us and he even helped us finally with with certain provision like the penalty provision. He told me hey we cannot have him as a criminal penalty because government will not prosecute itself if they miss if they mismanage his money. Why not we make a civil penalty? I said I agree. He's a fet lawyer. He been policing long since in the 80s. He know more than me. I agree and we teach it. It's there. But he told me we can't that his committee was not responsible to put a bill on the floor.
It has to be a committee responsible for diaspora affair. And who is the chairman on is senator Daryus Don Senator Abraham Daryus Don is a chairman for the Senate caucus committee on diasporal affairs.
That's how he submitted a bill in four and we put that in the newspaper everywhere on social media. Then we added Senator Dylan in our chat room. He has been there since November observing us to make sure we are a reputable organization whether we actually mean business. He has been in our chat room.
So in March he had a meeting with us mass meeting and he promised on you going to put this bill on the floor and he did it when they return from recess.
Then people start taking the bill running with it and doned a new bill to tax Liberians. He did not do anything wrong. He was only performing a legislative duty. And we mean well for Liberia. All of us including you sitting right there. We all mean well for Liberia. Okay. If there are frogs, this how it works. Now it have have it has had it first reading. That's number one.
It's going to have the second reading.
Then it will go to committee room. Then public comments. Right now there's public comments that what we have right now. These are public comments in the United States.
What the after he have gone to committee room there is a specialized email system.
>> We we know that process Dr. Go.
>> Yeah. Okay. Thank you Dr. uh Jakosen.
Uh thank you for expressing support and being willing to contribute to the research we're doing on remittances.
You sound so confident about what could happen if the funds are mismanaged, if uh the funds are defrauded.
Let's take a scenario where say for example this collection goes on and now you have $3 billion sitting in the central bank as a result this uh collection and the government says there is an emergency. without even consulting you the direct the central bank officials to transmit 50% of that money because of state emergency.
What mechanism do you have to prevent such a thing and what institution do you depend on? You're talking about those people are going to go to jail. What institution do you depend on giving the current Liberian situation to ensure that such people for take you know using some of that money for the state because you already announced that hey we bring this money to develop Liberia. What institution do you have in the Liberian system that we have now to to implement not just persecution because we know how the whole system works to imple to ensure that that money will be returned and and so forth >> and that's why we we needed you on board and we still need you on board to bring your suggestions right but before you came I I come in. But because you were not in our meeting, let me tell you how we thought. All this idea came about, all this suggestion. As I said, we went to the meeting 6 hours each time for four different times, four different meetings. It was hectic. Not just one Liberian, over 500 Liberians across the diaspora in that meeting. And we got record to prove, we got video to show you. People debated this issue just are you asking this question here? Right. So other say we should keep the money in the dash. We don't trust the Liberian government but if we do that they transferring that money to Liberia to carry on development. You want to be spending more money. So they say we can't do that. Let's keep the money in Liberia.
Some some even suggested the African Development Bank. Other said no let's car money to Liberia. But where some people say LBDR some say echo bank argument and we said it got to be the central bank because central bank is a custodian of the 22% of all commercial bank deposit. That mean if you save your money withd bankrupt you can only get 22% from the central bank. You can go line up if you save $1,000 and went bankrupt you can go to central bank and get $220. So because of that we agreed to save our money with the central bank.
But this is why we finally we even made amendment to the bill because this other idea came on later on when I appear on the closing argument when the Ghana said why not we build our own diaspora bank to put this money but again let's get started to start raising this money if anything happens like that like you suggested the government uh misuse our money we can transfer it immediately to the diaspora bank to manage it because This idea is perpetual. The holiday I on the show and the host asked question say why why will you be transferring zero amount and I told him because this idea is perpetual we will prosecute that government uh official but at the same time we make sure no money will go in the central bank now it will now go in our diaspora bank. So as I said laws are not static laws.
>> We will teach the law. We will amend the constitution.
>> Why? Why will you be closing the the after the guinea pony eating the rice >> instead of wait when it happen before you take it from there?
>> No. No. So the prevential part here is what we're going to do is that when we start collecting this money maybe that could be one of our first project let be our diaspora bank and that's what we're going to make amendment in the bill.
>> Yeah to go to public comment that if there's any mismanagement we will transfer our money to our diaspora we want to make sure to include that in the bill.
>> Yeah I think the the intentions are good.
>> Thank you. We all want to see progress occur in Liberia, but our institutions are really weak and the structure that has been proposed uh would would would the burden of the contribution will fall unfairly on low income earners who tend to send money more frequently compared to higher income earners who can afford to just, you know, set up an account in one of the banks there, put $10,000 in and whenever they relative near money, they just, you know, direct the bank to give them $50 withdrawing and then we only pay $1.
>> Okay. So, so, so the the distribution if you implement something like this will be unfair.
And I think that like uh Dr. Kennedy said earlier the global dimension now with respect to remittances is to make it easier for remittances to occur. In fact, some of the papers are even saying that the remittances to Africa the fees are too high already compared to other parts of the world. And that's why that's one of the reason why Africa is re receiving less of the total global remittances. So the momentum has been towards how do we bring those fees down to even make it zero so more funds can come in.
So to this idea even though the intentions are good the output that you expect are good you know but the the the process of getting to that output is kind of flawed and the distribution of the burden is unbalanced and the institutions are so weak and even the chair person who you have you know I mean clearly is not you, but you do his job. But look at the the his own reputation in the whole in the whole with respect to, you know, fighting uh for transparency uh in Liberia. I mean, people know he was the light and now he's in the Senate and nobody can see anything, right? So, so Liberians, you know, have caught on to that. So um the prospect for the bill as it stands now and given the structure doesn't look really good and uh I would not support it you know in the form that it is in uh with respect to uh imposing that tax the the the standard way they doing this with respect to the >> exploratory is not a tax so speak to that. Yeah.
Well, that's a matter of labor. Uh and and and whenever government say you have to pay this, you don't have a choice, most of the time people consider to be tax. People we can get into the technical definition, but that's not the issue. The issue here is there's additional fee for bringing money into the country. There's additional fee and what we want is for more money to come in. not less. And if you if you add a fee, irrespective of how good an intention is, whether it's going to go help poor people, it's going to go build bridge or whatsoever, once you adding a fee that people don't have a choice to pay, people will have their own way of interpreting it. Whether you call your fee or tax or whatsoever, the whole thing is an additional fee.
You see? So that's just what it is. So >> that's where it is. I think that um Israel is doing some of the same thing with respect to their diaspora. The diaspora the diaspora has contributed significantly in billions. India has done the same thing. Nigeria has done some of the same thing in rely on the you know uh their diaspora but they've done it through bonds like that that Dr. The Johnson said they've done it through bond the issue bond to say this bond will go to support this to raise certain amount of money to support this. If you have the ability to pay you invest in this bond you receive an interest for buying the bond or the bond chose and what have you. That's how they've done it. And then that way there is no argument. And the way Dualu has approached it, you know, in terms of saying, okay, let's identify people who have the ability and the desire to invest in Liberia, come to this corporation, buy a share. That's how Dualu has approached it.
>> You see, so that way there's no argument there.
>> Thank you.
>> So when you buy shares there, you're doing it at your own risk. you have to do your own vetting and what have you. You see, but the way uh this one is proposed is going through government, a government that has all kinds of trust issue trying to build trust. Uh it might not really fly.
>> Thank you. Let let me let me go to Professor Kennedy.
>> Professor Kennedy, you earlier said it's a bad idea. Now Dr. Yaken is here. What do you say?
um on Eastern time at 6:42 between 6:42 and 643 you made a statement. You said you didn't want this to be a flat tax.
You said you didn't want it to be a progressive tax because you wanted it to be a flat tax. So that was what you said, right? So if it's not a tax, you just told Dr. Gungu that it wasn't a tax. Why did you say you want it to be a flat tax? Because that's a nomicature people I I I I are used to. I only bring it a nomicure that you are used to to explain and I went for to explain it's not a tax because it's not going to find it way in the government budget. It's not a government revenue and one is not a government revenue you cannot call it a tax.
>> All right. It's and going back to what Dr. Johnson said >> it's not volunteer.
If it's not volunteer because it's a law, then why is it not a tax? It you seem to try to have it both ways because if it is a tax then it's involuntary.
>> No, because this is the first of the kind in the world. It never happened. We got to find a nomenclature for it.
>> Okay, let's do it another way. I will leave that because you're saying it's attacks but you're saying you're only saying it because >> yeah to explain to the public because they are well flatter, they are well regressive, they are well progressive.
So they have to fight on the business like like right now if you tell somebody to define GMP and GDP they will not aggregate but they will not really explain the detail why I mean by GDP and GMP. So you got to go elementary right to explain to the public to understand.
>> That's the point.
>> No because what you're saying and you want to pass it into law you can't say oh because people understand it if you say it was a tax that makes no sense. So he said another horse you done now you done he said uh that this should be progressive tax system instead of flat tax system that's why he said be regressive that's why he said so I came to explain based on why he was saying I had listened to this program before I came on I've been on ever since more than 20 minutes I was listening before they brought me on so I listen to everything I even listen I even watched the presentation everything so I only responding to his earlier explanation But >> yeah, >> to be able to understand is not a tax.
It is a patriotic trust fund because we love Liberia. We want to help to enhance government effort.
>> Gotcha. The other thing is central banks. What is the ECB, the Fed, they do not provide direct banking services to nonprofit organization. The >> I know this. I know this.
>> What's that?
>> I said I know this. I think I went to law school in Liberia. So, why would a nonprofit have an account at the central bank? How would that work? Are you looking to repeal or amend the central bank act?
Have a bank account at the central bank?
>> The central bank is a bank of all banks.
That's the first thing you should know.
Is a bank of all banks.
>> What does that mean?
>> It's a bank for all commercial banks. It provide moral solution for the commercial banks. That's why it does. It provide reserve for foreign provide foreign reserve right there where we hold our foreign reserve. Since this money is coming from the diaspora they open an escro account there not as a processing bank. They are not a processing bank. We opening an escro account there to put our money.
>> That's not what the central bank does.
You cannot do that.
>> Why you didn't read? They didn't read your read it. They didn't read your read. Did they read your eye and say we can't do it?
>> Even I remember when >> No, no, no. Did they read? They read your eye. That why I'm asking. Did they read your eye and say we can't do it?
>> One minute statement.
>> Let me answer your question. When Dr. Jones was trying to give money to market women out there, I was one of the people that stood up and explained that the central bank law wasn't meant to do that. Central banks are the banker's bank. They're the custodian for the government. They do not provide direct services to nonprofit organizations. Did I read the central bank act?
>> We are not providing that thing for breakfast.
Okay. So, unless you intend to amend that, but that's neither here nor there.
Here's the last one I want to ask you real quick. When people are looking to help the country develop based on what you guys are trying to achieve, they invest in debt. What that means is for example the US has treasury bills, treasury bonds, notes and a whole bunch of other things they use. They even have patriot bonds. They even have savings bonds. All these tools and financial instruments they use to help develop the country.
The central bank, if you go to the central bank's website, the central bank has uh treasury bills. They have three month bills. They have 90-day bills. So if Liberians wants to invest and help develop the country, they can purchase central bank bills. The difference between that is the central bank bills are backed by the full-fledged of the government of Liberia. So if for whatever reason they were to default, the government of Liberia would still be able to make that payment.
And the reason why people try to use some of these bonds is because they are insured. You know, they're actually insured. the money that you get from people like the World Bank. The World Bank they issue debt securities. They have a QIP, a nine-digit QPIP. It starts with 45906.
They're also known as the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development.
They issue bonds. That's how these underdeveloped countries get some of the monies they're looking for to help develop because they issue bonds. This all of these countries use financial instruments. What you guys are talking about, you like I said, you either haven't done the research. You don't understand what you guys are doing.
Importantly, it's going to lead to the direct opposite of what you're trying to accomplish because people will find alternative means >> to get money to Liberia and the Liberian government going to see less in terms of remittance tax to collect.
>> So you three questions I asked you, you couldn't answer it. Tax is not a tax.
Oh, I'm using tax because that's why people understand the central bank act doesn't allow nonprofit institutions to open up bank accounts. Then you're saying, "Oh, you guys talk about using the AFDP."
These super nationals, the African Development Bank, Asian Development Bank, Central Bank, all of these super national, World Bank, IM, these are super nationals. They do not hold accounts for individuals or nonprofit organization.
So, I totally see what you guys are trying to do, but that's not the way to go about doing it.
>> Okay, fine. Okay. Thank you. If I'm a respond, you see there's a reason and I am not saying there to downplay anybody. I just want to draw an I just want to make an analysis. People go to school, you got the high school, you got BSc, you got master level and some people go to the doctorate level because at a master level you are reading people theories and the doctorate level they want you to make your own theory. So all why you have been analyzing here those are people theories. Stop one second.
>> No I come. No listen. You were talking quiet. You know you were talking. You were talking I quiet. It's my time. You have to give me my time. You talking quiet. No no no no. You were making statement I did not respond. Give me time to to make my analysis. No. You got to give me 10 to analysis.
>> Go ahead Larry. Let let me finish.
>> Yes.
>> So you are reading people the building theory. We are building we are building a theory. We now looking at some other theory. We are building building a theory right. If that works you know what going to happen or will we model after what we have done. That's what we are doing. We are building a theory right. You may say oh because it had not happened in the past. I agree it may not have happened like this idea had never happened in the whole world. It's the first of the kind. It's like you ready your desertation. It has to be original. So this is original.
>> Thank you.
Let me announce let me announce if you want to join the conversation. We don't we don't have much time left but let me make it uh 605313604.
The code is 79143 pound. We'll be ending the broadcast in 15 minutes.
>> All right. So let me unpack what you said. Yes, there are people out there who know things theoretically.
By the time I was a teenager, I was working on Wall Street. By the time I hit my early 20s, I was vice president of one of the largest investment banks on Wall Street. I managed a team in New York, a team in London, a team in Delaware.
Back in 1999, by the time JP Morgan, where I work, JP Morgan, Chase, by the time the Glasssteagle act was repealed, we merged with Chase. They sent me over to to New York to help with a merger. By the time we merged with First USA and Bank One, they give me an apartment in Chicago. They were flying me every week.
Cars would come pick me up because I help with the merger in that as well. By the time Leman Brothers failed back in 2008 and when when Bay Sterns failed, JP Morgan Chase got a call from the central bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, they call me and I would go over to New York.
My signing authority at JP Morgan Chase was almost a billion dollars, more than the budget of the government of Liberia.
I don't deal in theories. I live this stuff. Today, I advise banks, major banks. I do data analytics. I do a lot of teaching in finance and economics.
Not only do I know their theory, I live this stuff from the time I was a teenager. So, when you're saying I'm talking about somebody else's theory, you don't know who I am. You don't know who I am. I don't live this theory. I live this stuff. I've been there when JP Morgan before it became Morgan Guaranteed Trust before it became bad.
Before >> you didn't read Central Bank I you didn't read Central Bank when you start making a statement. You did not read your >> central bank act. Why? Because I was doing a whole lot of in-depth research to see how I can actually change the dynamics of the central bank. So I don't just do theory. I do practicality.
That's true.
>> So, so we are doing too. So, you see what we're doing too. We are very in theory too. We are very bing after all around the world.
>> Yes.
>> Dr. Dr. What you said was this is the first and you are open to ideas, right?
you you so get get the ideas right and take it back to your group you know I agree I will be listening to the idea but what I'm saying is that why the thing is that bonds bonds are this we know those things those are things that will be done later right we know those have worked in other countries we can sell bonds to people we agree we know all this that's not what we're going through we try to build a new theory Right?
Because you see what happened in Ethiopia, they aspir to to contribute towards the dime. They did and they build it and that ended. That's a very good idea too. But what we are saying is that we want to build something that is perpetual.
That never happened in the whole world like like like a panelist they have they had their presentation. They say it will come a time where the remittance is going to scing population. our case the third generation will not want to send money to Liberia. So this is now to do this.
Let put the infrastructure there so the third generation will only be going to Liberia for two reason. If we don't do it right now, it's not going to happen.
>> Thank you, Dr. Yak.
>> So I think I think I think uh uh uh Mr. Yakasin or councelor Yakasin I know counselor or attorney >> attorney.
>> Oh Dr. O. I'm sorry. Okay, Dr. Jeterson, I think, you know, we all knowing Larry, is it Lar? Are you What's your name again?
>> Okay. Lar. Okay. Yeah. I think he giving some good advice and you're talking about building new theory. This is not how you build new theory.
you know, you just propose something and you have maybe majority in the room debate it and they say let's run with it and then you know you you know you're running with it and I think maybe the senator and people in the legislature respect you and and so they think that you have um done all the vetting of it and then they're moving forward with >> Oh yes I did. But okay, so you see, but look online. I mean, just ordinary Liberian look at the the the response online.
>> Oh, there's overwhelming support for this bill.
>> Overwhelming.
>> Yeah, there's overwhelming support for this bill.
>> Okay. Overwhelming support.
>> I've seen some posting online about it and I've taken Let >> Oh, yeah. to go through the you know some of the reaction what have you I mean there are so many things to consider uh you giving it's almost you thinking about giving an assignment to the central bank that's how it looks because this is not in their portfolio what about the administrative cost of managing that account who's going to pay for the I mean what will be the administrative cost who's going to pro provide that you know the cost to even manage the account until you get to the point of even moving the money out to go you know do or something to go do your development program that you are you are involved in. The issue of this will have a negative or an adverse impact on the flow of remittances to the country. I agree with it because for for example I mean I come from a village that just near the Avoran border and if you make it difficult for me to send money to Liberia it's very easy to send money to Kivoir and people can just walk over and collect the money I don't have to pay that fee the same thing will happen to people in the north the same will happen to people in the in the west you know what have you so I mean there are so many different dimensions of this and uh it is not it is not going to work out as easily as you think it it it is because again it it's going to make it harder and once you make it harder or more expensive for people to send money they will you know it will result in in less inflows >> I have one question for you the other day Trump imposed 3% tax on every remittance do you have any question about that have you have any have there been NM uh uh uh national debate to say we now we're not going to do it. Have Liberians come out to say we reject Trump Trump imposition of 3% on every remittance question.
>> What is your what is your point? What is your point about that?
>> No, I'm asking him. Yeah.
>> No, I don't want to prolong it. What is your point?
>> So what I'm saying here is that every country has a means of developing laws.
>> Okay. of of making laws. So Liberia can make this as a law. If you have issue, come suggest come but don't say all right it's not a great idea and you don't have alternative bet you know a better alternative we want something >> yeah law is maybe law is your specialty area but you have to also consider the fact that law is supposed to be responding to the needs of people. So, >> so what about 3%? What about a 3% thrown in? What happened to that?
>> It's not a good idea. It's not a good idea. It's going >> Have there been any demonstration in America that people say they not paying it? Has there been any demonstration?
>> No, not the demonstration. Bad laws. Bad laws are bad laws. So you think that you have power to pass law and therefore you just go and pass a law even though the law is going to have an adverse impact on the economy, adverse impact on people. just grab the power then go and pass those laws you know.
>> Okay. What about what about what about Ghana where when you send money in US they give you CD. What about when you go to you can use you know you don't use US dollar. Is that a law?
Let me just correct him real quick. In February the Supreme Court struck down Trump's authority to impose these tariffs. In addition to that it was the tariffs that Trump imposed that led to the great depression that the US experienced. Because what happens is other countries retaliate. It was a bad idea from Trump.
>> I didn't say tariff. I didn't say tar. I said 3% or remittance.
>> It's a tax tariff.
>> No no no no speaking two things. You say tariff and say so we are not speaking about tariff.
I did not mention tariff. I said 3% or remittance. That's what I'm saying here.
Similar whether it's a tariff is a tax the impact similar. The reason, you know why, you know why Trump imposed the 3%.
>> It's the same.
>> The reason Trump is imposing the 3% is because he doesn't want people to send money out. He wants the money to stay here. So you impose 3% is going to have a negative impact on the amount people are sending out because >> no, I think he want to generate more revenue for America. That's all he wants to do. He want to he finding ways to to generate revenue and that's why he increase tariff. Simple as that. He want to increase the the revenue for America.
>> Well, that's that's what Trump is doing. Trump wants to increase the revenue the revenue for for America. You may go against it, but that is his intent to increase revenue for America.
>> Listen, if we had a conversation on the law, you would beat me flat out because that's not my area. But if you want to come and start discussing finance, a financial instrument, they find it out.
That is also my area because I have a PhD in that area.
>> Oh, you want?
>> Yeah, I do. I got two I got two I got two degrees two degrees. I have a PhD in business administration. In business administration, we're emphasing project.
>> Right. Let me ask you how many years you spent working in a top five US.
>> The question is not how much you work.
It's about how much do I know. So ask your question then I will respond. Now how much did I win?
>> I tell my students.
>> No. No. The question is not how much did I win? Right. I don't work for myself most of the time.
>> One second, sir. What you read in a textbook, that's not how it actually works on Wall Street. I can tell you that for a fact because >> Wall Street Wall Street is a simple is a similar the black the black businesses.
>> So, it's not perfect.
>> Yeah, Wall Street is an issue too. Wall Street, you cannot use Wall Street as a benchmark because they too fraud.
>> I know the whole story. I know about the whole Wall Street. I read about the whole Wall Street.
>> We're kind of digressing. We're digressing.
>> We're not digressing. You must say something I want to respond to it >> because I know I know your area better too. Let me tell you I do know your areas because I got PhD in in our area.
>> I doubt it.
>> That's fine. You like it. You know d what do your own research?
>> I would submit I do not know the law.
>> Thank you. That's good because you get about the bill. You saw me so you guys want to say something.
>> But but will you will you agree that there can be bad laws?
>> Of course. Yeah, there can be. I do agree. I do it. But I said laws are not static, right? The road versus women was repealed.
>> The Jim Crow law was repealed, right?
>> Jim Crow law was repealed. Road versus was repealed. So if this is a bad law, we can repeal it in the future.
>> But we don't have to pass it. We don't have to pass it. WE KNOW.
>> BUT IT'S NOT A BAD LAW. IT'S NOT BAD right now. It's great. That's why we want your idea how to fix it. That That's why this is going through public comments right now. Right. from there will go to hearing and if there is no issue to amend it it will pass into law >> and then it will send to the lower house in the lower house if the lower house is fit to they will pass it also into law and THE PRESIDENT WILL SIGN >> I DON'T THINK IT'S going to pass I don't >> let me wrap up this I want to say something real quick to touch on what professor John >> is a call we got we got one call after the call I'm gonna get your closing comments I don't want us to go too law call out your name and where you calling from.
>> All right. So, this is I'm calling from Pennsylvania.
>> Go ahead.
>> Prince was on closing argument a few weeks ago. Um and I expressed my opinion, my view, but I'd like to ask you question maybe just two question tonight. one can he please confirm um was he president or some head of the ban association and the same idea that he's pushing as a national endeavor now that he also um uh push the same idea through the banana association few years ago and the other comment I want to also clarify or maybe comment on is um is this bill um intent Is is it a a diasporan group?
Yes. Group. Are they the driver of the group or is it a Liberian government initiative? If they are the driver, will you agree with me that their unelected group of people, they cannot impose their ideas on us because we didn't elect them to represent interest. So I mean I want you to clarify on this whether his group because it's a membership group. It does to to John according to him when he appear you you you qualify as a librar but I choose not to John then his group then impose their proposal on me that if I send that to my sister uh my sister has to pay that.
>> No you you have to pay >> she has to express that. No no but she has to have that. So I have to pay in the US, >> right?
>> I think he's going to open himself to lawsuit in the US because as as an American resident and a citizen, I have a right now to let pursue all action. I didn't elect him. He cannot impose unjust found on me. I consider that as a fan into trouble.
According to the constitution of the DLDDI, you are already a member.
>> No, you can't you can't just become a >> Yeah. All right. Let's listen to Dr. Yakerson. Dr. Yasen, first of all, you started with the Bandandy association and now the T.
>> Yeah. I don't know why he is uh uh why he tend to get from that. I am a member of the ban uh liners you know association of ban liners in the Americas that is a community organization. I am just a member of the organization. We had our first successful convention was great.
We bought an ambulance and he be sent to the same idea was tested there and it didn't work. Is that what you >> No, I never tested this idea there.
Nope. Never ever. Nope. This idea tested for for what to do with it there. This is about Liberia. How do I go test in BI association? No. I want to share with members in the BI association and the B idea. In fact, when I opened the group, they all came and join it and they bought the idea, you know. So, I I got no idea what he means. I I saw it this thing. When I had this idea, the first person I share with was my wife.
>> I share with you.
>> All right. All right. Thank Thank you, Mr. Ko.
>> And then after 5 years, I brought it to the group to everybody and it's still open. No. So, it has not passed the law, right? This is a bill. It's going to go to public hearing. I invite all of you to come on board. Come with your suggestion. Let's vote on it. They are giving you the suggestion. You >> No, I want to come to the meeting. Now they public because I don't read. Come read the bill first. Read the bill. Read our constitution. Come to our meeting.
>> They read a bill. I've read a bill.
>> No, you read a bill that I'm saying is that the gentleman in there, the three gentlemen have not read a bill. They need to read a bill. Understand what a bill says.
I read the bill.
>> Yeah, Larry. You know what I read the bill? Trust me. Yeah. You know, >> I read the bill. I read the whole bill.
>> You know what I read the bill, Larry?
Because if you read a bill, why would you talk about central bank and you read the provision of the central bank right in there? Why they the amendment is it's there. You did not read a bill.
>> Thank you.
>> If you read a bill with understanding, you have read the issue that you raise here.
>> Thank you.
>> But but but uh but to close, >> I read it, man. I read it.
>> You didn't read. Oh yeah, you read it.
But now with understanding, I can help you understand it though. You get call me.
>> Why you being so defensive? I thought this was a proposal to help us.
>> No. No. No. The person don't be defensive. You cannot come and >> defensive like like like your mind is already made up. It must be done.
>> No. No. No. No. No. The point is that he's saying something that is already in the eye that he did not understand. I'm trying to explain. He say is not there.
You see the point being I'm just explaining the response you response.
We we we about to close. Uh we've gone we've gone over the two hours mark that I I thought. So we'll go around the room and get your closing coming. And let let me start with you uh Dr. Jesus uh then Dr. Johnson, Dr. Professor Kennedy, and then Dr. G will be last.
>> All right. Thank you uh uh Mr. J for inviting me into your talk show. I want to thank your panelist for starting our research is a great one. Uh let the government of Liberia honor things that our remittance is actually helping to develop that country and they should take that research very seriously that they are doing. I would like to help in the process you know if I there's any way I can contribute towards it is a very great research you know because the government of can actually look into this and determine okay this money is going towards this how can we call a diaspora like for example I've been seeing the diaspora conference coming to the diaspora asking what car investment so that research people would rather be good for them too you know but for DLDR those in Liberia I want you to understand Don did not introduce did not draft this bill independently. We drafted this bill and submitted it to Senator Jala.
Senator Jala gave it to Don and Don put this on the floor because that is a legislative duty.
And this bill, this is not a tax. This $1 is not a tax by its definition. It is a patriotic trust fund. And this money will be there to help develop Liberia.
is not a tax because it's not a government revenue. It's not going to find its way in the government budget.
And if government uh touches this money, we will make sure to sue the government.
Anybody who touch this money will go to prison for 10 years. You will restitute the money and you will pay a f 250,000.
It's in the bill if it pass into law. So we are enjoining on the entire public in the diaspora and also the representatives and the senators to see reason to pass this law to pass this law call for public hearing. There's a need for amendment we are still doing consultation with all this argument we having is part of the public committee.
>> Thank you.
>> All what we're doing is part of the public committ. It doesn't mean what we say is final. If there's a need for amendment, we can do our amendment because our common denominator is Liberia. We want to help to develop Liberia, including the panelists in here. They all want to see Liberia develop. So, if you listen to all this argument we're having, it is part of the process. It is part of the public comment. Thank you. I appreciate it.
>> Thank you, Dr. Johnson. You're closing.
>> Okay. Again, I want to thank the audience for focus on Liberia and thank the the hosts for inviting us and all the panelists. A very good debate. Uh this is a very good and again I just want to encourage people to participate with our survey. Uh you know all those out there uh send your information to uh focus on Liberia and Dennis J and and so that you can participate and we can help. Uh and again like I stated be before it's just my preference. Uh I I like bonds. I mean I like development for bonds. I like competitive commercial bank investment bonds. I mean maybe you know it's a bias maybe again but you know that that's what I like in terms of development personally.
>> Thank you Larry.
Please please don't talk about the the go.
I think I think one of the audience members said >> Larry is my friend. You know where to talk from here.
>> I think one of the audience members said it best. I think D is saying you need to you you shouldn't be too hostile because if you're trying to have people buy in, you got to be more receptive. But I say a couple of things. You guys need to be very careful because the financial sector is one of the most heavily regulated sectors. Even as a nonprofit, you got to be careful when you have a 501c3 operating as a nonprofit and then get involved in something like this. You need to be careful with that. Uh when you're moving money across uh the US using the US banking system, you have to be mindful of the bank secrecy act. You have to be mindful of OFAC, the Office of Foreign Asset Controls. These are all things you need to be careful of, especially after the Patriot Act based on 911. You need to be careful when you're moving money to Africa. There's a reason why when someone is sending money to places like Nigeria, Liberia, we in the banking sector used to be extremely mindful. You guys need to be careful of that because a lot of people in the US get hung up based on that. But let me just close on this.
Doc, Professor Johnson nailed it. If you guys go back and listen to this, what he said early on, I didn't want to kind of tap into that because I really wanted to kind of hear you say that thing. But let me tell you what he said that you guys need to reframe this entire thing and follow what Professor Johnson said because I'm I'm a banker. I'm a financer. That's all I know. What he said is how you guys need to do it. you can connect with the government and tell them you want to do a specific uh government obligation bond, a revenue bond for a specific project. So when a government now is going to let's say build a school, uh Liberians in the diaspora can voluntarily purchase bond for that project. It is backed by the full-fledged of the Liberian government.
The government pays interest to them and they collect on that. Liber be more willing to do something like that because then they don't have to get stuck with US taxes. If they want to build roads, they can issue bonds and have the diaspora invest in those bonds because it's backed by them. But that's he said it early on and people don't seem to be listening. But this is something that um I wrote a paper about this a long time ago. I sent it to you.
The economist read it and he loved it.
It was really based on construction.
They loved it. We're supposed to build something like that. Uh I met with the uh CDC guys over at the IMF, not IMF or at the uh the State Department. We discussed it. Uh but go back and listen to this thing, this tape and listen to what Professor Johnson said because that's the way to go about doing it. The other way you guys are going to end up in a lot of financial trouble with the US banking system. Thus should be very very careful. I've been in the system since 1984 when I was in high school.
To you um brother Thank you so much. Thank you to all of the other doctors and panelists uh online. I think this has been a really healthy discussion and as we said uh this research is ongoing and um I appreciate the the support and clearly we need to find a way to be more forceful in contributing to the development of our country. We need to find an effective way to do that. And there are so many Liberians who are patriotic and they're willing to to take an extra step to contribute.
But we have to make it easy for Liberians and we also have to make it easy for remittances to continue to flow so that we have more remittances coming in. And one of the policy ideas that I hope will flow out of our research is for the Liberian government to create an incentive system that will that will encourage people to bring more of their money into Liberia.
And some of the ideas we I have is like these uh remittances that are going to do business. is if you're going to do business and you're investing a certain amount in business, government could find a way to even begin to say, "Okay, if you bring $10,000, we can match it at 50%.
We'll give you another $5,000 so that your 10,000 become a 15,000 investment in the country." And government matching could be through land that the government contribute to that person who's bringing the money in or through other means. It will encourage people will be an incentive for more funds to come into the country. When that money gets in and invested, government can then now start generating revenue through some of the taxes and other other activities that that investment is going to be uh will create in the country. But this idea of imposing a fee, whether you call it a fee or you call it a patriotic fund or you call it uh a tax, I don't see how ordinary citizens will create the institutions that will ensure that government officials or financiers in Liberia who mismanage such a fund will be made. If somebody steals a billion dollars in Liberia, how do you get that billion dollar back? You can send that person, oh yeah, send me to jail for send them to jail for 100 years. You're not going to get that money back. Is that same central bank that is that is under that is involved with the with the the prosecution of the former finance minister today, the 6 I don't know 6.2 2 million or $6.1 million money that they transferred from there and nobody can account for where that money has gone.
It was supposed to be to help the security sector. All the security people testify that they never saw the money.
They didn't know where the money went.
So that's an example right there. How are they going to get that money back?
It's gone.
So I would uh suggest that um it's good that you say it's is a work in progress and just as uh Larry said uh don't take it personally. Don't be too defensive about it because again, you know, our Liberian setting, if if you behave as though, you know, you have a personal interest in getting this done. And so, no matter what, all you want to do is to pass the law, then you will not get a lot of inputs that you should be getting. And whether you call it a patriotic fund, you know, it has there other implications to it, you know, I mean people don't want to pay for, you know, express their patriotism through participating in a particular funding process. So then what are you saying?
What will be the implication of people who do not participate? Are they less patriotic? So there are whole lot of stuff that is associated with this. So I hope we talk behind the scene after this.
>> This is an opportunity for us all to get connected and for us to continue to find ways to work together.
>> Thank you.
>> So thank you all for coming and participating and and uh contributing.
>> Thank thank you Dennis.
>> Thank you. The General Auditing Commission did a audit of the U from 2008 to 2023 and what what they found is u 572 transaction from the central bank to what the government call operations.
So of that money cover operation cost 1 million or more 33 times they went there and the total from January 2020 2018 to November 2023 the government of Labra took 178 million for covert operation we're talking about from the central bank some days they went there like whole week they will go there three times and take money so just like Dr. Go is saying with Liberia the central bank I mean if they take the $3 billion we have there what can we do? We say we'll wait for the next government to prosecute them or we're going to build our own bank and take the zero amount or the $2 that live there. If they go to court you know we just saw what happened in the other court case. you know one only one person were accused of conspiracies like that person conspired with himself.
So all kinds of things are happening in Liberia. But tonight was a very good discussion. Uh we we started with uh we examined one of the most important questions for Liberia economic future that is how should we harness the power of remittances. Remies already sustain families, fund education, support small businesses, and inject millions in our economy. At the same time, the legislature is debating a bill that would deduct $1 from every remittance to create the aspled development fund. And so, thank you to Dr. Johnson, Dr. GU, Dr. Yaka Singh came with the LDF the lab the diaspora development form I don't and professor Larry Kennedy when he started on Wall Street I was in eighth grade you know >> well thank you >> thank you all for coming let's continue the dialogue that's what focus on labor is here for to educate to elevate and promote all thanks to Liberia until then we close >> show Dennis great show great show >> allian Have a good night.
You are love.
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