EXCLUSIVE: Pat McFadden addresses awkward messages in latest batch of Peter Mandelson files

追加: 2026-06-03

[00:00:01]Pat Faden work and pension secretary. So these interviews are designed to try and get a better feel of a politician um to understand who the person is and I guess the private and the personal have um emerged this week because your private thoughts um putting a message to somebody who you worked with um very closely under the last Labor government actually um have been made public. We'll talk about the substance of those in a minute. But is it been difficult for you personally?

[00:00:34]>> No. Uh I've known Peter Manderson for many years. Um and these messages are kind of back and forth about politics and government that go on a lot. politics is a series of constant conversations and that's what's reflected in the material that was produced uh the other day. Uh having said that, what I did not know was the extent of his relationship with the Sky Epstein and all the stuff that's come out about that since um this was uh a year or more ago when he was still ambassador when these exchanges took place. Did you when it was when Parliament voted to release private messages, did you sort of scroll through and think, "Oh, that one's going to that one might blow up a bit."

[00:01:28]>> Well, of course, you write things in these uh messages, and I'm sure everybody does that. They probably when they wrote them didn't expect them to be published. Having said that, you know, I've said both in private and in public uh that we need to change the question that the welfare system asks. Uh I said it funnally enough in a bunch of interviews last Thursday, Friday uh and in a speech in March and many times internally in the department. What I mean by that is we need to move from a question which just asks what benefits are you entitled to to a question that says how can we help you change your life and I think that is a progressive welfare reform question because it puts work and opportunity at the heart of what you're trying to do. I've been saying that in public and in private for a long time.

[00:02:23]>> But the actual message, I'll read it out. Every meeting I have is who can we tax in order to pay benefits for others.

[00:02:35]They're asking the wrong questions. Now, that exchange was in response to a question about the Parliamentary Labor Party being mutinous. So, we assume you're talking about Labour MPs. Um, how are you going to get them to start asking the right questions? Well, I think we've got to do reform differently. I don't think you can or should do welfare reform just by saying here's a sum of money we've got to save and then you graft on the policy afterwards. Of course, cost matters, but the best way to save money on the benefits bill is to help people get into work. And since the day I walked into the department, that's been my emphasis, particularly with young people because if they get stuck on benefits, it can be a lifelong uh effect for them. So everything I've done through our youth guarantee that we've announced, through subsidies for employers, changes in the apprenticeship system, all of it has been about putting work opportunity at the heart of it. And that's what I mean by welfare reform. It's what I mean by asking the right question rather than the wrong question. So I'm approaching this in what I would argue is a progressive Labor way.

[00:03:48]>> And your response to Keanok who um the Conservative party did a set of social media saying um Labour's welfare secretary admitted to Peter Melson what he won't tell you. Labor raised your taxes to pay for more benefits.

[00:04:02]>> That's what she did. That's what her government did. They had the biggest rise in welfare benefits with none of the youth guarantee stuff that we are talking about. And we've been left with a system that they had 14 years where they created it, designed it, didn't reform it, uh, and then suddenly they say they want all this change. They're a bit like a builder walking around your house saying, "Well, who installed that and who put that in?" When the answer is they did. So, I am changing the system that I inherited from them.

[00:04:38]>> We're going to talk about how you're going to get people back into work in a moment, but I just want to ask you uh first on Monday night, the body camera footage was released of Henry Novak's arrest. I mean, you're a dad.

[00:04:56]What went through your mind as a dad when you saw that?

[00:04:59]>> Oh, it's it's awful. I watched it uh on the news uh seeing this young man and there's just so much that's wrong there.

[00:05:09]Uh the assumptions being made, he's saying he can't breathe. He's saying he's being stabbed. He's not being believed and in the end he's handcuffed.

[00:05:19]Uh and he's arrested.

[00:05:23]And I just think this has gone terribly and horribly wrong. Uh there should obviously the first place to start is an investigation into the policing of all this. That's got to happen. But I mean my heart goes out to this young man's family. Uh I've got a son very similar age and I think every parent watching that uh is just awful.

[00:05:51]>> Absolutely. Right. Let's talk about work and what we do um about worklessness.

[00:05:58]Have you ever been out of work?

[00:06:00]>> Uh not for any sort of sustained period uh really. Uh I've been fortunate. I had a number of different jobs as a younger man uh before I came into politics. And I think that variety of jobs placed me in goodstead. And I think it's really sad these days that people are finding it harder just to get the experience of getting up, going to work. You're told what to do by the boss. You meet your colleagues and you earn a bit of money that gives you a sense of pride and purpose and that's what I want for today's generation. That's what motivates me every day. And I was fortunate enough to get a number of different jobs that led me to >> tell me some of the jobs that you did, your early jobs, first jobs.

[00:06:44]>> It starts very early. When I was 13, uh I had a paper round uh before and after school. So, I would get up really early in the morning, probably 5:00 in the morning, and go and deliver the papers before school. And I used to go down to this uh shop in Governill in Glasgow and chap the windows, knock the window, chap as we say in Scotland, and he'd get up and I could see this guy putting his teeth in as he got uh the newspapers ready in the morning. Uh then I stack shelves in supermarkets uh a couple of different supermarkets on the south side of Glasgow after school or sometimes night shift. I worked night shift Friday night through to Saturday morning when about 17 18. I did a bit of gardening just cutting people's grass and the hedges and so on. Uh I worked in a few jobs uh when I was a student in Edinburgh selling tickets for exhibitions, washing dishes in a Mexican restaurant. So quite a lot uh of jobs just around the place.

[00:07:45]>> And would you would you recommend that you know people while they're at school, you know, it used to be the Saturday job in our generation that you're a little bit older than me Pat, but we all had sort of sassy jobs. Is that culture we worried about that culture not being the same? I think it's um I think it's just not as readily available. I mean retail is really interesting because um jobs in retail, physical retail have been on the decline for 10 years now. It's because of the way we shop.

[00:08:12]>> Yeah.

[00:08:13]>> And it's having a big impact in town centers and all a really big uh impact.

[00:08:18]Uh but retail jobs have been in decline for some time. So I think we need to really think as a government, as a country, what can we do to give more young people this sense of pride and purpose that comes with having a job?

[00:08:33]Because I think it's social. You meet friends. Uh you learn about responsibility. You take a bit of pride in your work. I mean, when I'd finished doing a garden, I used to be able to stand there and say, "I've cut this grass. I've pulled these weeds. I've cut that hedge." You could see your work.

[00:08:49]And if um if you don't get those experiences, I think your your growing up is just not as full as it otherwise would be.

[00:08:58]>> What did your parents do for a living?

[00:09:00]>> My dad was uh my parents were Irish.

[00:09:04]They came to the UK from Dunnigal. Uh this is rural Gaelic speaking west Dunnigal. Uh my dad was a laborer on building sites like a lot of Irish men of his generation. worked really hard physical work. My dad and my mom, well, I've got six brothers and sisters, so uh she was busy to come up with that, but she also worked uh as the children, I'm the youngest, as my siblings got older, she worked four nights a week in a local authority children's home, night shift.

[00:09:37]So, I remember my mom, she would leave the house about 8 or 9:00 at night, get the bus to work, and she would come in just before I went to school in the morning. She did that year after year, four nights a week. So, they both worked really hard.

[00:09:53]>> And what do you think they'd have said to you or any of your six siblings if you'd have said, you know, I'm not sure work is for me or I'm not sure, you know, that I am able to work.

[00:10:05]>> Well, they'd have said, how you going to get any money? How are you going to pay your way? So, of course, they'll want to >> They might have said, well, the benefits are pretty generous, so I I think I can get by.

[00:10:15]>> I don't think my parents would have said that. Uh I just don't think they that's the view they would have taken. They would have said you either work or you're not going to have money. Uh and that would have been their response.

[00:10:27]>> And for things like anxiety, mild depression, I mean everything in me says, well, the best thing for that is for you to go to work. It will help you.

[00:10:39]>> Yeah. Um look, this is a big thing. uh and a lot more anxiety, depression, uh neurodeiverse conditions is being reported. Now, I think it's a good thing that we acknowledge mental health problems and neurodeiverse conditions more than we did in the past. And I suspect there was some things going on where we just didn't know about it. H So, I think it's a good thing that we acknowledge this and face up to it. But what I don't want to see is a diagnosis accompanied by an assumption that the person can't work because I think that's bad for them and bad for the country.

[00:11:17]And one of the things that really strikes me in my job is that when young people go on to these long-term sickness benefits, they're what I call sticky.

[00:11:26]They're on them for many years.

[00:11:29]You know, I've been told uh by the research people and all of that in the department, if you sign on to long-term sickness benefits at the age of 20, you've got more chance of celebrating your 30th birthday and still being on those benefits than having a steady job in between. And that's why I'm so keen on intervening early to get the maximum opportunity uh to young people for work experience, for training, for a first job because I don't want them to end up signing on to long-term sickness benefits when they're young when once they do that, it's very hard for them to come off. It's what I call putting work and opportunity at the heart of the system. And it is changing the question that the system asks. And I think that is a good progressive and I would say labor thing to do.

[00:12:20]>> But let's also live in the real world.

[00:12:21]Some people are taking the mickey right saying they can't work.

[00:12:24]>> Well, >> not saying the majority may be but I mean some people >> you know these benefits are given out on the basis of functional tests about what people can do and what they can't do.

[00:12:36]Now we may look at the design of all that but I think any change has to come with a better offer where we say to people there's this option of training this option of work experience or if you know you you are suffering from mental health problems we really want to help you get treatment for those and get help for those but I do think for many people sitting at home year after year not doing anything productive that's not good for your mental health it's not good for pe the individual and it's not good for the country either.

[00:13:09]>> Um, I mentioned your siblings. We talked about your siblings. Um, you're from a large Catholic family.

[00:13:16]Does your faith, you are a practicing Catholic, I believe.

[00:13:19]>> Well, uh, I'm a flawed sinning Catholic.

[00:13:24]>> Does it inform your politics?

[00:13:26]>> I think it does to a degree. Um, I've never worn this in my sleeve or or made big claims about it. Um, I go to mass sometimes, not every Sunday. Um, but that upbringing in a big Irish family, um, where my parents went out to work every day. Uh, big families have their own dynamic. I'm really lucky in my family. We get on really well. Sometimes in big families, they break down into factions and so on. Thank God we haven't had that.

[00:13:56]>> That's just the Labour Party family.

[00:13:59]>> We get on really well. We're in regular touch with one another. uh and uh I love my family and I'm very very lucky to be part of it.

[00:14:08]>> Um last political question I want to ask you a couple of lighter questions but your message to Labor MP and peace or whoever want to change the leader.

[00:14:18]>> Well you know I think the country has gone through a lot of changes of leader in the last 10 years. I don't think it's answered Britain's problems. I think some continuity and stability in leadership would be a good thing for the country. Leadership's really hard. I've worked with uh a lot of leaders in the past. I know how hard this is and uh you know all the critiquing and judgment that you get every day. It's really really tough. But K Star was elected just two years ago, just less than two years ago in fact, for a 5-year term. Uh and I think Britain's had too many changes of leader in recent years. So I hope that he's able to carry on with the job that he's doing. Now, you're often sent out to defend the government on, you know, difficult days for the government. So, people see a very serious Pat McFaten. Um, but you're a huge Bruce Springsteen fan, lifelong devotey of Bruce Springsteen.

[00:15:14]>> The best song to pick you up when things are tough.

[00:15:18]>> Oh god, we could be here all day. Uh if I had to pick one, I love the song The Land of Hope and Dreams because uh as the title suggests, it's an uplifting soulbased almost gospel song and redemption is a huge theme in Bruce Springsteen's music where people may go through hard times, but there's always or almost always in the song light at the end of the tunnel. There's hope on the horizon. That's why I love Land of Hope and Dreams. Uh, and it's a big theme in his music. And what a man.

[00:15:57]>> And finally, how far are Scotland going to get in the World Cup?

[00:16:02]>> Well, I hope they get far. It's fantastic to be there for the first time since 1998. It's really excited the country. I was up at Hampton Park recently um doing something about youth opportunity actually and such a buzz about the place. So, I wish the team well. Um, every moment they're there, they'll enjoy it. Just delighted to be there.

[00:16:25]>> Patton, thank you. Thank you.