The Attempt on Trump’s Life and Political Violence in America, with Douglas Murray

本站添加: 2026-05-04

[00:00:00]I happen to have a front row seat, literally, to the chaos that broke out at the White House correspondents dinner on Saturday night when a young man attempted to kill the president or members of his administration, only to be stopped in a flurry of gunfire at the threshold of the ballroom where we were all just beginning our meals. Also at the dinner was journalist, author, and war correspondent Douglas Murray. And after things calmed down a bit, Douglas and I got to chatting about what we had just participated in and what the normalization of political violence means for America. He joins me today on School of War to have the conversation we were having in the Ballroom in public and it is a fascinating one. Beginning with an account of the evening itself, some thoughts on security. I am extremely critical of the security arrangements that evening for what it's worth. And then most interestingly of all, a discussion of just what is driving this now steady drum beatat of assassinations, assassination attempts, and generalized conspiratorial and nihilistic fervor in America. Let's get into it.

[00:01:02]>> It is a prescription for war. This Iraqi invasion of >> December 7th, 1941, a date which will live in infamy.

[00:01:12]>> The bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a statement. We continue to face a grave situation on the ground.

[00:01:19]>> The people who knock these buildings down are your own.

[00:01:24]>> We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets.

[00:01:31]We shall never surrender.

[00:01:36]>> The world is changing fast. Conflict and instability are spreading across Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. If you listen to School of War, you know we try to cut through the noise with sober, honest analysis that helps make sense of it all. On May 19th, we're taking that conversation live. Join me and historian Neil Ferguson for a special live recording of School of War at the iconic New York Historical. We'll be talking about the war with Iran, Great Power Competition, China military deterrence, and where all of this is heading. To learn more and get your tickets, visit thefp.com/events.

[00:02:14]Hi, I'm Aaron Mlan. Thanks for joining School of War. I am delighted to welcome back to the show Douglas Murray. He is a journalist and author most recently of On Democracies and Death Cults, a book he joined us here on School of War to discuss um not that long ago, back when uh this show was me plugging my laptop in uh uh to a microphone in my basement.

[00:02:33]We've uh we've moved up a little bit.

[00:02:35]Douglas, thank you so much for coming back. It's a great pleasure to be back with you.

[00:02:38]>> It it is it's always good to see you. I I regret a bit the circumstances that have led to this episode, which was um uh after the um the chaos or perhaps in the middle of the chaos, but after the shooting at the White House Correspondents Association dinner on Saturday night. Um you and I spotted each other across the room and got to chatting. Um and it made sense here uh on the Monday after the fact to do a bit of a debrief about what you saw.

[00:03:02]Douglas, what was your Saturday night like? How'd it go? Well, it started like all of us by um being heranged by protesters outside the venue. Um as I was walking up to the uh hotel where the White House correspondents dinner always takes place, uh there were people one woman in in a kafir screaming at me, "How could you possibly have dinner with a a child rapist and genocidist and that sort of thing?" And um I I never particularly liked being heckled by strangers, but uh uh that was the sort of the tenor of it when everyone was going in and queuing. Um the uh the event itself was the the normal run of things, the White House correspondents dinner, pre-parties and pre-drinks things and then everyone filing into the hall and I was with my colleagues from the New York Post at one of their tables and uh I had uh Mike Waltz and Scott Bessant and others. Um and uh and it was it was all going on as normal. The president came in. It was there was great excitement because of course it was the first time that President Trump had uh come to the White House correspondents dinner last week, notably not just he but none of the the administration came. So it was a big thing and everyone was looking forward to it. I think they were looking forward among other things to Donald Trump roasting the media uh which was what we were all expecting. And uh and then something happened. I was close to the front uh where the president was as you were. Um and uh so I I didn't hear the shots. I just thought that it was um as the president's thought as well, I thought it was somebody had dropped a tray and something like that. But then it became clear that uh something bad was happening. And that really became clear when the Secret Service rushed down the center of the uh of the area.

[00:04:58]And um because I had cabinet members near me, they were uh all, you know, covered by his secrets. I was pretty fast. It was it was very impressive. But yes, we all sheltered uh um down and uh I um saw from the video I had my head up a bit too high cuz I was just trying to see what was going on. Uh but yes, um then it became clear it was very serious and uh as Secret Service were clamoring over the tables. I suppose most of us had in mind the the thought that there was probably another shooter in the room. And uh that's why by the way I've seen a certain amount of weird or a lot of weird criticism online of people in the hall but I know somebody started chanting USA at one point and nobody picked up the chant. And some people online have been trying to pretend that's because journalists aren't patriotic or something like that. And of course it was simply that we were all trying to remain quiet so that the Secret Service could do their job and uh ensure that there wasn't another shooter in the room. Um, so it was it was a you know I it was the same experience most of us had. I had colleagues certainly who were who were by the doors and and and heard the gunshots and uh rather more um alarmed by that than those of us who were further away. But uh yes, I mean it was a a horrifying thing to happen. Um, as as you know, um, in general, if you're in a sort of dangerous area, uh, in a conflict or the like, you sort of prepare yourself in advance for alarming and bad things to happen. But it it's always worse when you're in a, you know, situation where you're not expecting that and, you know, whilst tucking into the first course and making small talk, you know, none of us expected the evening would go the way it did. I I'm curious your thoughts on on security and and just how safe you and your your table of mates felt. Um I I confess um I was a bit skeptical of security even as I sat down. I was surprised that nobody checked my ID. I was surprised that the checkpoint such as it was was basically at the door to the ballroom which means you could go as indeed the shooter did anywhere in the hotel you wanted armed to the teeth. That's slightly exaggerating the case but not really. I mean, there was a fair amount of freedom to move around the rest of the building before you got to the ballroom itself.

[00:07:19]Um, and these thoughts were occurring to me even as I sat down. Um, I was then struck by not so much the chaos because chaos is to be expected in in moments like that. And and as a war correspondent, you know that I I actually spent the incident itself. Um, there was a photograph of me that that got some circulation that that got me accused of apparently feeling a great deal of onwe was the was the word applied to me on the internet uh because of my apparently bored expression which is just my serious face. Um uh but what I was really feeling was um a a mild annoyance at myself for not being able to figure out what was going on because it was just extremely confusing where I was sitting. The music was very loud so I didn't hear any gunshots and I just I just couldn't quite piece it together nor could anyone in my corner of the room at first. Um, but then I was shocked by, for example, how long the president was on the stage after the incident began. I was shocked by the fact that Pete Hexath, who was sitting at my table, um, it was a solid two minutes or so before his guys came to get him. What was your impression of the security of the event?

[00:08:15]>> I mean, you know, in a way I'm I'm reluctant to criticize after the fact, as you know. I mean um you know in a way you know everyone does the best they can in the circumstances they find themselves in. Uh I mean certainly it was it was strange that you know IDs and things weren't checked and that there weren't metal detectors until we got actually to the ballroom and certainly at the pre uh uh parties in the hotel you know there were cabinet members and uh and other very senior administration figures uh you know going in and out of some of those parties. They themselves have checklists but I mean not uh metal detectors or anything. So there's quite a lot that I suspect you know after all of these such events what happens is you know we all learn to live with a a worse uh tighter state of security you know I mean obviously since butler and uh Charlie Kirk's murder nobody's doing outside events uh now inside events I imagine will be even more tightly controlled than before particularly if the president or people in the administration are present I mean it is alarming uh in retrospect, you know, just how many people in the chain of command were in such a small area and quite a lot of people have pointed out that, you know, if this had been a a more organized cell, um say, you know, an Iranian cell or something, they could have done an unbelievable un unimaginable amount of damage, uh uh and uh terror. Um yes I I I mean I was watching quite closely the members of the of the cabinet and uh was actually I was focused not just the ones on my table but I I was actually looking across at uh Bobby Kennedy because uh he uh was just across the aisle from me and uh he was pinned you know down by his security people. But I have to say I I think there were I think my immediate thoughts went to two people in the room in particular. one was him and seeing him being bundled out uh through the back given his family history. I just sort of thought this just seemed additionally awful. And the other person who I immediately thought about was Erica Kirk, uh, who was at the dinner.

[00:10:38]And I I just think that for people who have have experienced political violence and it's come that close to home for them, I just think that something like Saturday night must be so much worse than for anyone else present.

[00:10:55]>> Yeah. On the on the security question, my thought keeps going to exactly what you just outlined, which is instead of one mentally unstable, tactically sort of um nitwitted uh person, um this had been a team, a small team of sophisticated people. Um it could be, you know, a foreigned group like uh like an Iranianbacked group, could be an al-Qaeda style or ISIS style group um equipped with suicide vests. So imagine if instead of this one guy, you know, his name was uh Cole Allen, bursting out of the door and just doing a sprint which was destined to be foiled one way or the other, though we could nitpick nitpick the foiling itself. What if it had been three or four people who came out shooting and knew how to shoot >> um who came out prepared to die, you know, as these are like in a way very dark thoughts, but as a security I'm a marine as a security professional, these are the thoughts you're supposed to have. you're supposed to have these nightmare thoughts and I worry that the system that the we witness would not have withstood >> that kind of assault.

[00:11:51]>> I I think that's I think there's a lot to that. Yes. Um the you know as I say it's all hindsight and I I hate that but um well then you're say in your case it was foresight as well. Um I I mean my my assumption at the time was that the they were looking for a second wave or a second attacker. Um and that was that was sort of what what I was expecting I have to say. Um and uh if that had been the case then yes it would have been um a very different story. I mean you know people have pointed out that the president uh it took a little while to get him off the stage. He had been pushed down or gone down uh behind the podium fast. And um you know a lot of sort of self-appointed experts been trying to work out why or think there's something strange about the fact that the vice president was was uh pulled out by security first but that was simply because the president was already you know behind the stage and and not in the ey line of any shooter. Um, you know, I've noticed, by the way, after these events, it's it's it's something worth noting that the president himself doesn't like uh criticizing publicly any of the uh efforts of the the um the the Secret Service and others. Um I noticed that with him after Butler and after the uh um golf course attempted shooting.

[00:13:18]And I I think that's, you know, he he has a genuine gratitude towards them for their for for having, you know, kept him safe in the face of bewildering odds, it has to be said by this point. And um and that that that that sort of lack his desire not to ever criticize them is something I sort of I understand and and somewhat share. You know, it was a unbelievably chaotic situation on Saturday night and and you, as you know, I mean, just in hindsight, when everyone knows it's only one shooter, that's that's very different from when you're there and you're expecting other things to happen. Um but see but once the cabinet was got out uh I I was slightly surprised that they were a lot of them were going out the same route and I heard uh Pete Hgsith saying as he uh uh went down the middle that I think I think he was surprised that he would be taken out that way because it was >> I was surprised too >> rather direct uh not just from the line of where the shooter had been trying to um to aim but you know right down the middle of the hall very visible.

[00:14:27]Um but it's difficult of course because um as you you know better than me I I mean in some ways of course because every everybody knows in the moment that everything they're going to do is is going to be poured over and uh you know if if if he had you know crawled out on his hands and knees then we would have endless days of mocking of him for that. uh if he marches down the center of the room with his wife, there'll be people criticizing him for that. You know, the the president stumbled as he went out. People are criticizing him for that. I I mean, it's it's it's it's a really I mean, I I noticed that people are criticizing Robert F. Kennedy for for um uh for a moment not noticing that his wife, you know, was right behind him. But that that that's just because he was being almost almost carried uh along by the secret service. Um just you know things happen in these chaotic moments which everyone can pour over afterwards. But at the time you can you can only do do your best and um you know my view you know everyone involved did their best including I have to say the people at the dinner who you know it's quite hard to get a room full of journalists to be silent. um but uh or indeed to follow any instructions, but everybody did and uh everybody, you know, made sure that they they followed the the orders that were being shouted by uh Secret Service and others. And uh and I think you know as a result uh the the picture of what wasn't going to happen uh became clear quite fast and as you know we all sort of got up and went around our our business of of of checking on colleagues and and and all that sort of thing. I think some people were hurt by flying chairs and things like that but you know thankfully nothing more than that.

[00:16:27]>> Yeah. And I want to be clear, none of my criticism should be interpreted as in any way criticizing the individual valor of any of the officers or Secret Service agents involved. I mean, I saw one agent in particular put his body directly between the president and the rest of the room very dramatically, not knowing, there's no way he could have known what was out there, what was about to happen.

[00:16:44]Uh, obviously out in the hall, um, you know, officers who were exposed to to fire took the took the shooter down.

[00:16:49]There's a tremendous amount of personal valor and I I totally agree with you, Douglas. I've noticed the same thing um at least from his public remarks that the president uh you know he has a kind of um emotional attachment to these guys who are defending his life and and in a way I think that reflects well in him. I just hope we can leave the leave the issue here but I I hope that um >> that there's somewhere there's a cool dispassionate analytic eye being trained on what happened without emotion to just ask the question of well what if it had been a more serious attack and we had this system in place. I I I think that I mean I I think one of my first reactions I think I said to somebody on Saturday night was that everything is going to have to be sort of more Israeli. By which I meant just that the the uh the kind of protection that surrounds Israeli senior figures particularly the prime minister will will be the sort of thing that that that that will happen more in America. And um that that's you know I mean in a way again it's it's strange that there hasn't been tighter security in in this case but you know the all acts of terrorism as you know um always have a consequence in subsequently um infringing on you know the the freedom of people to live in anywhere normal life. And that obviously includes the the most senior figures, but but everybody else as well. You know, we got used for years to taking out our our liquids at airports because of one uh plot in 2006 to bring down planes with explosives mixed on board.

[00:18:28]We we got used after the shoe bomber Richard Reed uh tried to put sho bombs in his shoes and bring down aircraft. We got used to our shoes having to come off at airports. all of these things. You know, we're now used to the fact that, you know, there almost certainly won't be outdoor events for um people like Trump ever again and we'll just get used to extra rings of security and um you know, just have to put up with it.

[00:18:54]>> Yeah, I worry a bit, you know, there was um there's some discussion of you know, could the could the shooter um have been identified earlier, which I think in his case would have been problematic because, you know, apparently no criminal record. Um the truth is um uh there probably is the technology these days to sift through large data sets and use AI to sniff out people who are having problem expressing problematic thoughts here and there that could theoretically lead to an active violence like this. I'm not sure I want to live in an America where um we're employing such technology too aggressively. You know there's a fine line there. Um uh so I you know there's both the question of how you identify people like this before they strike and then the question of how to stop them once they strike and concerning repercussions either way.

[00:19:40]>> Yes, that's right. I mean in this case I think it's it's going to be quite straightforward is that you know I mean nobody should be staying in a hotel where such a gathering of senior officials is is is happening. And um you know, as many people have said, the the case for the Trump ballroom just uh just uh um got fasttracked. Um and actually, by the way, I mean, I I'd said this before Saturday night, but I mean, the the case for that has has been overwhelming for some time. You know, inauguration and events like that are are enormously disruptive around uh the city, especially when, you know, like last time, they have to be indoors. and that there probably should be a a a very secure place where a large gathering can take place which is is prepared for just this sort of thing.

[00:20:30]>> So, I've been really eager to ask you about the shooter himself who sent his family this manifesto, you know, identifying uh uh the fact that he was unwilling to have um I think it was something like his hands bloodied with the pedophilia and and rape and and everything else that he attributed I I suppose to the administration generally, but by implication to the president, sort of nutty stuff. Um uh but also politically charged stuff. I mean there's a sort of an edge of Epsteinism uh there. And Douglas I I mean you're one of the best chronicers of um uh of of of the madnesses the madnesses of crowds in the present day. What is this this shooter? You know we have Mion in New York uh earlier going after the insurance uh executive and murdering him. We do seem to be we could site other obviously other two other other attempts on Trump's life. There's the Charlie Kirk assassination. And we do seem to be living in an era where political violence is um is becoming distressingly normalized. What does this shooter tell you about America today and how does he fit or not fit for that matter into other patterns that you see?

[00:21:33]>> Well, you know, it's I was just talking earlier today with a journalistic colleague about this because the the the issue of the manifesto is is is interesting for a number of reasons. One is you're completely right. I mean the the the sort of uh it struck me immediately on reading it that that what he wrote as his alleged justifications for his actions um were exactly what people were screaming at us outside the venue as we were queuing to get in um these sort of outlandish claims that have been normalized you know the president's a child rapist and things like this I mean it's just sort of so obscene and seems to be I don't No, not not mainstreamed but mainstreamed on on the fringes if you like. Um and uh you know there's a there's a there's a way to have healthy discourse and there's a way to have very unhealthy discourse. I mean the moment that you know people are screaming baby killers and child rapists at journalists for you know going into a dinner with a president who's neither of those things.

[00:22:44]Um we I think we do we have sort of got used to a sort of just very ugly discourse but then you know free speech is often ugly and and and to curtail it is is uglier than than allowing it. But yes, the manifesto was completely in line with uh um or the declaration, whatever you want to call it, was in line with what you know certain fringes on the right and left in uh American uh uh certainly online life uh uh playing around with. Um I I but the reason I mentioned that that it's it's interesting is that it's I was very struck by the fact that that within 24 hours of the shooting um the the the president was being read parts of this uh madman's well I don't want to say madman he perfectly possible he's just sane and and wicked um but that that the president was being read this sort of manifesto So I I I'm I'm very torn about this because I I think that there's a significant chance of uh copycat imitation uh um attempts. The fact that the uh the shooter was uh detained alive um may well like with Manion um uh make him some kind of hero to very sick people.

[00:24:13]Uh uh it may also be the case that people think, oh okay, I can take a a shot at the president and I won't necessarily have my head blown off myself and and and some sick people will also be thinking that. But what what struck me is, you know, there was um and you can correct me on this, but I I seem to remember that when there was a particular spate of school shootings here in the US, um there was some media hygiene about um there was a period I think where we were trying not to name the shooters uh because people were realizing that there was a very significant sort of mimetic copycat element to it And there was certainly um some kind of you know uh desire to attain notoriety and and the media has had that struggle on a number of things but I seem to remember with uh a particular space of the school shootings that that that so-called manifestos or suicide notes and things were actually we were very careful about not giving them the publicity once we realized that we were we as the media were being used by these people in part. Um there was a similar issue in the 2010s when the media realized that ISIS ISIL were were were were manipulating the media uh were were ekking out statements grotesque execution videos and much more. And I I I'm uneasy about I I think on the one hand of course you know the public and you know the media we we we want to know uh what somebody like this sick individual from Saturday was thinking. I mean what always happens sadly after any terrorist event, any assassination attempt is all political sides line up to try to blame their opponents and there's this sort of weird hiatus before people then can claim you know the shooter is the responsibility of their political opponents or vice versa. Um so on the one hand yes we want to know and we need to know. On the other, I I'm very uneasy about the fact that that that what this young man wrote um as his purported justifications for his disgusting actions is sort of out there and is actually being put to the president within 24 hours. Um that that gives that this shooter and potential future shooters um an enormous boost in a way um that that they've got a kind of direct line uh uh to the president and to the nation as a whole by acting in such a way.

[00:26:59]There are a lot of people who are very disturbed uh in this country as in any other and there are a lot of people who feel that their voice isn't heard and uh I I I'm just I'm very concerned about this and I'm not quite sure what I think our answer should be in the media to this but but yeah I I I find this I find this a very worrying um precedent uh as I'm sure you do. I want to pick up on something we were actually saying to one another in the room. Um where uh we were talking after the the the peak of the incident had passed, but everyone was still in the room waiting to be told.

[00:27:39]You know, we we thought maybe the president would come back. Um there was some confusion about whatever was going to happen next. And you said something to the effect of, you know, I had always wondered uh what it was like uh to live uh in the in the 60s and 70s um in the era of political violence that um that boiled then. you know, based on your your study of history and this terrible run of American history, which I mean, of course, it's the assassination of JFK of 1963 that people sort of think of as the initiation of this period, but it's really the late60s with MLK in ' 68, the riots, 1969 sees the formation of the Weather Underground um uh recently um glamorized uh in this movie uh one one battle after another um in a way. So, and it extends well into the 70s. You know, there's this attempts on Gerald Ford's life. I mean, there's a lot of stuff, a lot of lot of domest domestic terror essentially.

[00:28:29]>> Um, and I'm just curious if you see parallels between that period and the kind of ferment today. I mean, we have populist right um political violence as well. Um, it's not purely a left-wing concern. Um, but it is it is it is a concerning ferment no matter what slice you take at it.

[00:28:47]>> Yes. I mean the the it was on my mind I think I was saying on Saturday night because I I've always thought that that that particularly that trio of assassinations uh in the 60s of of JFK, MLK, RFK um it just it must have felt at the time and friends who were around at the time you know confirmed this as if just you know this was going to be endless and uh you know one of the great problems about assassin the nations uh is that they really do uh have the opportunity to change the course of history. Um you know when Gavil Princip decided to kill the Arch Duke in 1914 um he probably didn't foresee that his action would lead to the loss of millions of lives of young men across Europe uh for the next four years. Um but you know it does change the course of history. history would have been very different if JFK had remained president. Um um policy at home in the Far East and and and elsewhere would have been different.

[00:29:56]Martin Luther King's assassination dramatically changed uh the course of of history. Um as as did Bobby Kendy's assassination. That was on my mind. I I was thinking when I was looking across at Bobby Kendi Jr. on on Saturday night, I suddenly remembered, you know, a friend of mine who um is a very distinguished uh historian and author who happens to be a nephew of LBJ. I remember once telling me that as a boy he was in the White House and um went down to his uncle's uh study or to the Oval Office and and found him uh found the president in tears at the Oval desk because he had to call uh the mother of Bobby Kennedy second time. uh one of her sons had been killed and I my friend told me that that uh LBJ was just sitting at the the desk saying what am I going to tell Rose what am I going to say to Rose and it's those moments that you know it's also worth remembering that the personal cost of of such actions my own view is is that is that although you know we'll we'll never be safe from you know lone madmen or evil people or whatever you want to call them There is something in recent years which I think we can all identify which it's not it's not new but it it seems to have reached a particular pitch which is that you know anyone who you disagree with is Hitler and um when you think I mean I I years ago >> unless you're Tucker Carlson >> in which case the the analogy wouldn't work.

[00:31:38]>> Yes. Well, he's a a special case as we know. Um, you know, the the this this thing I remember years ago saying to a friend before Butler that I was surprised that there hadn't been more assassination attempts on President Trump. I mean, I remember in 2016 in an episode that most people sort of forgot, but um at a Trump rally in 2016 ahead of the election, a young British man who was about 19 or 20 um leapt to try to seize a revolver from Secret Service agents uh um Holder and uh was trying to aim and shoot at President then candidate Donald Trump.

[00:32:21]And I remember back then, you know, 10 years ago now, saying to colleagues, you know, it's it that that that young man, wicked as he was and evil in action as he wanted to do, in some ways, was acting in a rational way because he had been told by a lot of the media that Donald Trump was Hitler and that if Donald Trump became president, uh, we would literally have, you know, the sort of fourth Reich And um that was patently absurd and and defamatory and much more back then, but it had become normal. And of course, you know, every school child knows the sort of uh what if thing of history of, you know, what would you do if you could go back in time and kill Hitler. Of course, everyone thinks that they would, but the history doesn't work in that direction. Um but but you know if you if you know that that's as it were one of the moral lessons which is you know Hitler is of course the embodiment of evil as as somebody said the other day you know we we may not believe in in God anymore in our societies but we we we believe in in in Hitler as the devil and that that's you know that it's an interesting and strange sort of theology that we've ended up in but once you accept and of course you know that Hitler is the most evil person in history. He's also one of the few people in history that everybody has heard about these days. And therefore, anyone you disagree with is Hitler, but particularly Donald Trump is Hitler. Then that sort of fantasy of going back in time and killing Hitler becomes something you can do in the here and now. And I mean, this has alarmed me for years in America. um you know that that that we can't just have disagreement but have to demonize to such an extent and I not you know in in a way as as my friend and colleague at the spectator Lionel Shrivever has pointed out before the thing that makes you know gunmen terrorists different from other people really is the simple thing that they pick up a gun and use it. Um, a lot of other people have their the same beliefs as those people, but thank goodness they just don't act on them in that way. But I just find that this this uh you know as I say this this thing that was literally people standing outside the dinner the other night. I think even after the attempted assassination uh still you know screaming at the police and and you know there were people with signs saying I think that everyone should be killed and and this sort of thing. I mean, it it's it's it's protected by the First Amendment, but but it shouldn't be it shouldn't be normalized, and there should, it seems to me, be some kind of just civic, um, health really, um, civic hygiene.

[00:35:19]uh that you know people who stand on street corners and scream that the president's a child raping mass murderer you know shouldn't really be um just sort of laughed off as part of the the the the human parade. uh this this is it has become very normal that the I mean the no kings protest I say this on a day when the king of England uh uh is is coming to DC uh I'm I'm quite in favor of of uh constitutional monarchies myself but the the accusation that you know I mean what what is this no kings nonsense um the the the the crazy claims I mean in a way again it's it's it's it's Hard, Erin, isn't it? Because we've we've had so much of it before. I mean, you and I are old enough to remember the way in which George W. Bush was demonized. I thought nobody could be demonized more uh at the time. And I remember then people saying in in various magazines and journals that George W. Bush wasn't going to leave office in 2008 and he was going to stay on for a third term and and all this every all these things were being said back then about him. But it just feels like it's much much worse with Trump. And uh you know, I don't know. I mean, whenever people say dial down the rhetoric, what they really mean is that their political opponents should dial down the rhetoric, but nobody thinks they should themselves. And uh you know as it happens my latest column in the New York Post was about the way in which a particular New York Times podcast um from last week and again I'm not drawing a direct line from that podcast to the shooting on Saturday but the the column I wrote the la last Friday was about the fact that you know the New York Times podcast was basically asking you know was the murder of Brian Thompson, the the 50-year-old father of two um by Luigi Manion. Was it justified or not? And and the guests seemed to think that that they they accused the healthc care executive of I think they called it social murder and yet they wouldn't condemn the actual murder. Um, and this is this is complete moral inversion, of course, where people who are not guilty of murder are accused of murder and people who are guilty of murder are not accused of murder. Um, I think I've got that the right way around. I mean I mean it's it's it's a completely upside down situation but and and I've long worried about the the particularly the Manion case um because of the valorization and the the glamorization of what was simply a disgusting coldblooded shooting on 6th Avenue in Manhattan of a man who was meant to go home to his family that night and then never did. Um there there are things like that. As I say, it's not a clear line, and I'm not trying to shut anyone up or say that people don't have the right to to to, you know, say whatever they like, but there there there is something that that we have normalized and we've had a set of things uh like that. Uh I'm, you know, again, sorry to I'm waffling on slightly, but I mean, I just, you know, I have to say as well, you know, the assassination of Charlie Kirk was was another such time. far too many people um you know have valorized the shooter or actually um deflected from the actions of the shooter and come up with crazy and wicked conspiracy theories about Charlie's murder which are for instance perfectly likely actually to prejudice the trial. I mean, the two cases I just mentioned, uh, the uh the the Thompson's murder in New York and and Charlie Kirk's murder, um, the the the people who are accused of perpetrating those crimes are coming up for trial. And there has been so much wicked disinformation, misinformation, lies, falsehoods, conspiracy theories in both of those cases that it's perfectly possible that there could be a mistrial or a a verdict which is affected by one juror having absorbed the craziest nonsense which has been put out about these things. So we we are definitely at a very dangerous moment. the New York Times podcast that you cite and the sort of fatuous embrace of violence by people who um I I don't I don't take it to have been engaged in much personal violence themselves um and the and the nihilism really of of what they're suggesting in the moral inversion of of uh of murderers uh literal murderers um and people who they claim that because of the systems they are part of are de facto murderers. It puts me in mind actually of um I went to the 60s earlier but the but that citation that you just made puts me more in mind of of Russian revolutionary fervor. I remember um you probably familiar with the work of Gary Saul Morrison um this scholar of Russian literature who um contributes to New Criterion other publications. I I remember going into a um a think tank event with him maybe a decade ago now. A little had to be a little bit longer than that. It would have been be it had to have been before 2015 because it would have been less crazy to say it in 2015. So early in the last decade and there talking about you know his work on Anacarinina and different stuff and and they just sort of starts to say about events on campus that um actually things on campus remind him of what he studies in the Russian literature of the turn of the 20th century that it's the same current. I remember this was say it was 2011 2012 something like that and I remember thinking and reacting sort of negatively think that's a bit strong that's a bit strong I I don't know if we're quite at the the Russian revolutionary moment um but you know he certainly would have a stronger case to make now um and I think he was in retrospect uh undeniably correct about the sort of philosophical overlap the nihilism the fetishization of violence um uh the kind socialism, but a socialism that bleeds into um into just revolution almost almost contentless revolutionary ferment just some sort of vague idea of justice hanging over it. I don't know if if you think that's a fair comparison.

[00:41:54]>> I I do. I mean I there there are of course different types of revolutionarism. Some are uh revolutionaries who know what they want to do.

[00:42:05]um have like the Bolsheiks a very clear um albeit disastrous plan for how to reorganize society. Uh other people uh to quote a famous line just want to see the world burn. And there are also people who are simply desperate for a cause and for meaning. There's a long history of of of literature as well as actions in uh in Russia in particular along those lines. I mean, I often think these days of one of Teenyv's masterpieces, Rudin, one of his less uh perhaps less well- read works in in the West these days. But, um, Rudin is about a young man who he wants to die on a barricade.

[00:42:49]Um, I mean, this is set around the actions of the revolutions of 1848. Um, but the Ruden is about a young man who wants to die in a barricade. And it matters less what the barricade is than that it is a barricade.

[00:43:05]And that that's that's something I've thought about a lot in the last few years in particular and written a bit about in some of my books because the way in which there are a large number of people desperate particularly young people desperate to fix themselves to a cause um is part of what I and others have called the meaning crisis that's going on in the west at the moment. Um, but in the midst of the meaning crisis, uh, the affixing yourself to a cause and one that you're willing to be on the barricades for is is is I don't know if I want to say it's a growing phenomenon, but it it's an existing phenomenon for sure.

[00:43:49]Um, I made the comment quite often after the uh um atrocities of October the 7th that I was struck by the fact that the generation who had gone up to university that month or the month before had been gearing up for a climate emergency, climate crisis protests and um in instead thanks to the actions of Hamas um affixed themselves to the Hamas side in the Israel uh uh Hamas war, the Israel Iranian revolutionary government war. And uh this there's a lot to be said about this, but as I say, the for the time being the notable thing to me is these are essentially people wanting to affix themselves to any cause to have the thrill of meaning uh uh of revolutionarism.

[00:44:46]And unfortunately, I mean, certainly 1917 teaches us that uh should teach us that whatever it is you hope for in that revolutionary moment, you can never control it, uh this is uh um these forces, the forces that permit murder, that excuse murder, uh that make the most wild accusations against the status quo, whilst never appreciating anything good about the status quo are the forces that create whirlwinds.

[00:45:19]And I I you know I'm simply of the belief that most of the people playing around with this dark whirlwind creation are people who would not like the the results of it. I mentioned in that column last week that you know if these people the New York Times really do excuse looting and theft from shops for instance and if they really do excuse murder uh they better watch out because history shows that these things aren't one on one directional. Uh I joked in that column that uh readers should if they want go and help themselves to any of the stuff that those New York Times uh podcasters own because clearly it's just the okay to take the old fivefinger discount if if you feel like it. But uh other people uh equally wicked people may think that uh the violence should go against them and in their direction. I wouldn't want that because like you having seen the consequences of violence and I I hate it with all my heart. Um and and want it to be as as little existing in our world in our orbit as possible. But people who've never seen it and don't understand the consequences and don't know what an exit wound looks like and don't know the unmenable damage that murder and political violence does to everyone around the person who suffers it. The people who don't know that um are willing on something which I mean is I I I I simply can't use any word other than the the term evil. It's evil.

[00:47:09]>> I I have a proposed villain um that that may surprise you um for some of the problems that you cite. I think in particular of uh your reference to Trendivv and the need of of some young people to just be on a barricade, perhaps even fantasize about dying on a barricade. I would like Douglas to blame uh teachers um collectively our education system >> um uh for failing to provide a kind of sufficient moral guidance to what is actually sort of a natural desire of young people and I'll say young men in particular I may get into some trouble for that but in fact most of these shooters are are men the vast majority of the violence we're talking about is perpetrated by men >> uh more what I would argue is much more wholesome forms of of this human urge you know young people join joining the military and seeking out dangerous combat arms roles within the military.

[00:48:00]That's predominantly a male desire, I believe, but predominantly a male desire by the numbers as well. So, it's young men need um uh generally and for the most part um uh something to feel heroic about and something that that is risky and dangerous and and involves acrewing >> credit for the risk. Um, and absent any conception of of the good or anything wholesome to shape and guide that, um, it's hardly surprising that that raw human need gets translated into deeply nihilistic, deeply destructive or or perverse, far-left, far-right, uh, or just for that matter plain looney conspiratorial ends. Um uh you know and we could go this is a longer conversation that we don't have time for today but we could go through you know what is the moral ethic that our young people across the country are exposed to. They're not t I'm not suggesting at least in K12 they're taught to be um nihilist uh conspiracy theorists. So I'm I'm sure there's probably some exceptions here and there and maybe we could draw some more exceptions in the universities. For the most part, my impression is um um put it this way, they're they're not um they're not energetically encouraged to, for example, see defending their country or uh building a family or or uh uh something like that. These more traditional ways of channeling male um thumos would be the old word for it um into something productive. and in and and instead given this sort of more blander sort of kindergarten-like doctrine of of kindness and compassion.

[00:49:34]Not there's anything wrong with kindness and compassion. I'm generally for it.

[00:49:37]But if you're a young man, it's not enough. You have to have you have to have something else to fight for and pursue and you'll figure it out for yourself in some cases if something wholesome is not described for you.

[00:49:48]>> I agree with that. um teaching in most countries in the west is educational standards are lamentable and uh here in America in particular the the the presumption that education can be improved simply by pouring more money into education is of course a complete nonsense and one that I'm forever railing against um in New York uh state the cost per pupil per year is suddenly make $30,000 and so when Randy Weingarten and others pretend that we just need to invest more in uh education.

[00:50:23]$30,000 per student to get people who after K through 12 are 50% illiterate and 50% enumerate. That's not a money issue. That's that's a simple education issue. You can make people learn how to add up and read uh for a fraction of the amount that we pour into education in the United States. But the the very dangerous one is uh to your main point is the present presentation of the the the best good you could do in society as being to be an activist. If I could put my finger on any one thing which I think is has led so many people astray, it is that being an activist is being presented has been presented in modern America for some time as being the highest good and that is not the highest good. And if you present people as if you say to people that they they must man the barricades uh for any cause and that that is what it means to be a good person, you will find people uh seeking out causes and eventually latching on to very perverted causes. Um, you know, I I was doing an event last night in Detroit with Van Jones and came up the somewhat an interesting disagreement I have with I had with him about interesting to me at any rate about progressivism.

[00:51:53]My my um my critique of progressivism as a as a as a cause is the the one that the late Australian political philosopher Ken Manugg uh made which is the St. Georgian retirement problem which is that you know St. George after getting the acclaim of having slain the dragon staggers around the land looking for more dragons to slay ends up killing smaller and smaller creatures until eventually St. George in retirement can be found swinging his sword in th at thin air. Now it isn't the case that we live in a perfect society in America. So so people who would be St. George are not necessarily swinging their swords at thin air, although they sometimes do, but they're certainly slaying ever smaller creatures, but at the same time, they are presenting themselves and presenting the situation we are in in America today as if it is what it was when the dragons were real.

[00:52:50]You know, I noticed a number of young people who are being taught that they must be like the heroes of the civil rights movement or the anti-slavery movements. But we don't live in a slaving society. And although there are things to improve in America, we do not live in 1920s America with a segregationist south or anything like it. And and so people are being educated to the idea that the highest good is to be an activist when the actual things that we we we do need to address in the country are simply much less glamorous causes than that. The people who wish to solve all of our problems by burning the thing down could spend their time trying to work out how with the education spend we have in America, we could try to make sure that we're producing a far higher um quality of education. But that's not sexy.

[00:53:53]That's not thrilling. That's not the barricade. And they have been taught that the barricade is the desirable place to be.

[00:54:03]And yes, I I I I think this is a lamentable uh uh trend. None of it again, just to repeat the Lionel Shrivever point, none of it means that those people are going to all pick up a gun. The people who pick up guns and wish to carry out violence are unusual by the nature of their actions.

[00:54:26]But it is it is at times like this worth having some self-reflection as individuals and as a country as to why it should be uh that that this violence seems to become so normalized. And in the meantime, I would just observe that that the people who advocate the violence should notice among other things that things don't always go the way they mean it to go. And the person who was hoping on Saturday night to uh kill the president or members of the administration has said that he was perfectly willing to shoot through the journalists who were in the hall should know that his actions so far have done only one thing which itself is rather miraculous. Arguably, he has managed to give an administration that dislikes the mainstream media in America very greatly and a mainstream media that dislikes the president and this administration very greatly seems to actually melded us together rather in a shared experience.

[00:55:27]I bet he didn't expect that. And so he can sit in a prison for the rest of his life knowing that his actions were meaningless and that the only thing that he achieved was perhaps a miraculous thing of bringing the Trump administration and the American media together for a moment. Douglas Murray, author most recently of on democracies and death cults. It's always a pleasure uh and always thoughtprovoking to speak with you. Uh you you uh you were cool, calm, and collected, I have to say. Um I I as the incident proceeded as were in fairness many of our colleagues in the media and others in the room. I'm glad we ran into each other. Thanks so much for coming on School of War.

[00:56:06]>> It's a great pleasure. Thank you.