J.M.W. Turner & Class - Primo and Payne: Great Art Explained

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]Coming up. That's a that's a much debated that  hare. Is it a hare or is it just a smudge of paint? It's definitely not a debate. I don't  think Turner could have painted fabric like that, you know. So, well, only because he probably  wouldn't want to. He wouldn't want to. No.

[00:00:12]And then he pulled his head back in and he was  covered in soot clearly and totally drenched from rain. And she thought that was very  queer back when queer was queer. [music] Hello, my name is James Payne and I'm the author  of Great Art Explained. My name is Leslie Primo.

[00:00:32]I am the author of The Foreign Invention  of British Art. Today we are here to talk about JMW Turner. Or Will, as his father called  him. Or Will. Yeah. So, um, what do we call him?

[00:00:44]Let's just call him Turner, shall we? Okay. He  he actually rarely signed his paintings, did he?

[00:00:49]Most people called him William, right? Yeah.  William. His father called him William as well.

[00:00:52]Yeah. John. William. Mallord. Turner. So, we're here to  talk about him today. So, he is pure working class.

[00:01:00]He was born in 1875 in Covent Garden.  Um and if you're from London, you probably think that's quite fancy, but Covent Garden in 1875  was incredibly rough. Yeah. Very nasty place. So, he was born there to a dad who was a barber. Yeah.  And wig maker. Wig maker. Indeed. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:01:19]And a mother who um suffered mental health  problems and ended her life in Bethlem hospital.

[00:01:24]I should say though at this point though, James,  that in fact it was Turner and- William Turner, the younger and his father that committed their  um mother and took her to hospital. Oh, I didn't know.

[00:01:36]They're the ones that did it, you know. And you  know, arguably, was she really really that mad?

[00:01:40]And could it have been dealt with in a nicer  way than that? Probably. Really? You know, committing your mom to hospital and never  visiting her. Neither of them ever visited her.

[00:01:48]Interesting. Yeah. Terrible. So he was very close  to his father. He was close to his father. Did he Did he have siblings? Uh no. Okay. So it's just  him and his father and they together they ganged up on the mother. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah. So and it was very common in those days for women to be put in mental health institutions for  the slightest reason. Exactly. So there was you know you know she's having some sort of woman  troubles or something or the other. Exactly.

[00:02:11]Yeah. I just you know I just want to say that  you know it's not talked about much is it really about the mother and I think they treated her  appallingly. So we we'll put that on hold for a minute talk about what a genius he was. So so I  I think he's a he really is a true genius and I do think the interesting thing about Turner um  first of all is the period he's born into which is the period of the industrial revolution 1775 and  300 years exactly after the birth of Michelangelo.

[00:02:39]home. Yeah. To the day? Not to the day, but to the  year. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because born in 1475 Turner, 1775. I don't know what that means, but Okay.  [laughter] Well, it's a bit like Shakespeare died and then Newton was born and things like that.  That doesn't Yeah. Well, Shakespeare actually, strange enough, Shakespeare was born in the year  that Michelangelo died. 1616. No, 1664. 1664.

[00:03:03]1560-. No, he was born in 1564. 1564. Shakespeare. Died in  1616. Yeah. So in other words, he's born in exactly the same year as Michelangelo died.  Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, all of that nonsense aside as well. [laughter] So we could talk about  um about um JMW Turner. So I think he is he is he's an he's a household name in this country. So  he has become that. Yes. Yeah. He has become that.

[00:03:29]But but for a long time I think you know I think  there's some some very interesting things about him. one is that- is it the £20 bank note  or the £50 bank note? I think it's the £20 bank note. £20 bank note the very first artist to be  on a bank note which is real pure establishment and then on the other hand he was this rebellious  uh character you know if you think about his name for example, Turner, there's so much you  know - the Turner prize is named after him, the Turner Contemporary in Margate, two institutions which  are very much against the grain. But it's just a pity that none of this happened in his actual lifetime  because - No. But however he was incredibly famous in his life and incredibly rich so unlike  most artists he was he actually did pretty well.

[00:04:12]Well, I just like to pick you up on that actually,  you know, because in fact most artists were rich actually. Very few artists um you know uh you know  like Peter Paul Rubens fabulously wealthy three knighthoods he was very wealthy. Michelangelo  fabulously wealthy, owned huge amounts of land, houses, you name it. Giotto, fabulously wealthy, hired out looms as a business. Yeah. On the other hand you have Van Gogh. Yeah. Well Van Gogh made himself  poor didn't he? Really look his brother was wealthy. Yeah, that's his brother was relatively  wealthy. Yeah. Well, wealthy enough to buy him all that paint. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Okay.  So, Turner was very very wealthy in his lifetime, more than most artists. Um and he was very  secretive about his wealth. Mhm. Um so, tell me more about his early life. Well, his early  life, yeah, growing up in the barber shop, uh in Covent Garden, of course, a den of iniquity Covent  Garden. Not the barber shop clearly, you know.

[00:05:07]Um but um he he had a a relatively good upbringing  really you know I mean it's not as though he had a a hard life like you know like Hogarth for  instance who ended up in a debtors' prison okay his father didn't have much much business sense  however acumen but however he did come up with the bright idea of putting his son's paintings  uh in in barber shop and selling them so he was selling them but I think this is my opinion  that um he's I mean first of all Turner was talented from the beginning from the very very  beginning. Everyone recognized straight away um and and of course you got wealthy people  coming into the barber shop who were coming for the wigs you know so you got very wealthy  people coming in there and they'd see his work but I think that he saw his son as a way to get  out out of his background as well. That's another that's an interesting point to make actually James  because in fact his father did say you know when because a lot of these wealthy people that came  to the shop to get their wigs done were also politicians some of them were actually members of  the Royal Academy school anyway and he did say my my son's going to be a painter so he was clearly  proud of it and clearly promoted the idea of it.

[00:06:17]So yeah I think you're probably probably right  that this was a way out and and of course you know we're jumping forward here a bit but he does end  up working for his son in his son's shop. Yeah.

[00:06:28]So it does he does get out the barber shop. It  does work. Yeah, it works. He is very young, very talented. Um his dad is already selling his  work and then by the age of 14 is it? He gets into the Royal Academy schools. Royal Academy schools  14. Very- the youngest at that point. Yes. So if we go back to our initial podcast, our first podcast,  we talked about, you know, class being a barrier.

[00:06:51]I think sometimes when you read about Turner, he  kind of put that aside, you know, and just went forward. He just kept going forward and forward  and forward and not looking at those barriers.

[00:07:00]I think for him, an untrained working-class  kid getting into the Royal Academy schools, which was full of wealthy kids or kids who could  afford the tuition fees, that was a bold bold move for him. Yeah, a bold move. But then it's also  to do with confidence, isn't it? Confidence.

[00:07:16]We talked about confidence. Yeah, we talked about  confidence in the last podcast as well, didn't we?

[00:07:20]And and and also that confidence of youth as  well, isn't there? You know, where you think you can do anything. Yeah. But for a 14 year-old  kid to get into the Royal Academy School. So, and and he didn't pay, right? No, he No. So, it  was a meritocratic um organization. But most of, let's just say most of the people he was at school  with would have been wealthy. Yeah. But let's be clear also that a lot of people there didn't  think he deserved to be there. No. and and they, you know, took the mick out of him for his accent.  Yeah. Exactly. Yes. You know, we talked about accents in the first podcast and I and I like the  idea that he never really lost his accent and and he he must have known that people were laughing  at him when he gave lectures and things like that.

[00:08:00]Yes, he did. In fact, yeah, in fact, one one  of the critics said to turn you Turner that um he says 'mithamatics' instead of mathematics. Yeah,  somebody actually said that. Yeah, he that they picked it up on just that one word when he was  giving one of his um lectures on um perspective at the Royal Academy. Yeah. Yeah. I think he this is why I  he's really one of my favorite artists. I find it very very interesting that he is so talented that  people can't say no. They can't they can't keep him away, you know, because he's too talented and  everyone wants to own his work. But on the other hand, they were laughing at his accent. Yeah. They  were critical of the fact that he wanted to make money. Mhm. Yeah. People who have money are very  often critical of people who want to make money.

[00:08:41]Indeed. Now, even nowadays. Yeah. And that and  that is where the class issue comes in with can I go back to what you said because you start off by  saying that he's pure working class. What is pure working class? What's the qualifications for that  really? I I hope that I measure up. Working class um is a movable feast. Oh, right. Isn't it? Right. I  mean, it's like it's been described many different ways. Yes. Um I would say a manual worker is is a  start. A father or mother who's a manual worker.

[00:09:09]Yeah. But manual working that's how painting  was described, wasn't it? Yeah. Yes. In in 1775 would it have been described like that? Yeah. Painting was  described by that um in also um I could go back as far as 1580. No, I know they used to describe  it as that. So Turner is the very beginning of those Royal Academy schools being set up. It  was really the first school, right? The Royal Academy school. Well, the Royal Academy in the UK,  I mean. Well, there were schools before that. Oh, okay. Right. There were schools before that, of  course. There were the schools of St. Martins's school for instance. St. Martin's school were um  some of the schools there. There was I went to Yeah. Well, St. Martins was run by somebody called  William uh um James Thornhill. Oh, okay. Yeah, I know the name. Yeah, James Thornhill. And  he is the first British artist to be knighted for services to art. But that's in like the 18th  century, you know. Okay. So, yeah. And then he become an MP as well. And then then after that, um  William Hogarth um eloped with his daughter. Oh, yeah. Saucy. Very saucy. Well he didn't want his daughter  married in a low life like William Hogarth you know because now he climbed up the social rankings and  it's time to pull the drawbridge back you know so yeah William Turner is like a particularly English  case I mean I mean I you know the truth is I don't really know what working class means I could  probably look in the dictionary and look at the description but then you look in another  dictionary and find a different description as well so so there's no pure working class okay  in that case there's no pure working class but I would say I mean look the truth is that um his  father was at the edges of the working class because he had a shop, you know. Exactly. He he  had a business. So, he was on the edges, but you know, he was there. So, um but I do think that  people treated William Turner differently because of his accent and because of his class, but they  couldn't deny him just because he was so talented.

[00:10:51]Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference between him  and most working-class artists. I I'd agree. Yes.

[00:10:56]Yeah. Absolutely. But yeah, um I I think that that  that the working class element of Turner's life um is one that never leaves him and he's never  really able to escape from. Yeah. And I think he was described as being belligerent in some ways  and in a way I think he kind of rebelled against I think he just decided look I'm working class no  one's ever going to let me not be working class so I might as well just own it. Yeah. most of his  clients could be considered belligerent. You know, the upper classes in the UK at the time could  be considered belligerent, but he was also criticized for being crude and  for being, you know, from the lower working class.

[00:11:36]He was criticized for that. Yeah. But you see, in  their terms, crude meant trying to sell paintings in an open way. He's talked about, his crude manner  as well. The way he talked to people, he was gruff, you know, he was direct, which you know when  as we know the British are not that direct normally. So well this is somebody who's being  judged. Yeah. And uh when you are constantly being judged uh in the end you just think  you don't give a damn. But also in a way it's it's it's what makes him an outsider. And and when  you're an outsider you produce more extraordinary work. I do think that's why his work is so  experimental. You're not saying it's outsider art, are you? It's not an outsider. It's not outsider  art. But he definitely was an outsider. I think I think he must have felt that. I don't see how he  could not felt that. No. Absolutely. Yeah. And I do think that's why he let's you know we him and  um him and Constable were born 14 months apart you know I mean they're from the same period  in history and you know Constable pretty much carried on doing the same area you know, the Suffolk area, doing work connected with him whereas Turner is doing work that's  totally outside of himself you know so and you know and we talked about this before  how the the vast majority of working classes they didn't leave Islington or they didn't leave  their small villages and most people at this period didn't leave and he's traveling. He was  traveling early. But that mobility that he has is because of the success of his work. Yeah. Talent.  Without that, he would have had he would have been in the same position as all the other people in  his area. He'd be a barber. Yeah. Yeah. And he wouldn't be able to travel either. So art gave him  that ability to travel outside of his own area, outside of his own experience as well. And I think  in a way that's a great metaphor for now, isn't it really? Because this is the idea, isn't it? If we  bring people to arts, it it means that they they they get to travel outside of their own experience  and uh and and experience something new, something different. Yeah. Uh that people around  them might not get a chance to experience. And art affords you the ability to do that. And and uh  you know, Turner took that both, you know, took the bull by the horns, didn't he really? And he  traveled. And once he got the ability to do that, he traveled. Yeah. And I think art can still do  that. Art can definitely still do that. I mean, I think we all know that, you know, um, travel is  whenever you meet people who have traveled a lot or extensively, then their minds work differently.  You know, I think him, you know, Turner seeing the landscapes of Switzerland, the landscapes  of Italy, going to Venice, all those places, that kind of thing changes your mind. You know,  it changes how you look at your work. Yeah.

[00:14:16]And and you're absorbing other influences  rather than being stuck in this one space. Is it still true that travel broadens the minds?  It is 100%. Well, even if you go to Benidorm?

[00:14:26]Even if you go to Benidorm. Yeah.  Yeah. Maybe not [laughter] Benidorm.

[00:14:31]But no, I would say I'm the biggest advocator  for travel. I think it changed my life. It completely changed my life. And I do think just  being in a different space opens you up. So my and also hearing a different language that's  really important, you know, your brain starts working in different ways. And so I I think  Turner was a global artist. It's why Turner is so well known in America. He's so well known  in France, in Italy and Spain, you know, because he was a global artist, which is very different  from Gainsborough. Yeah. And Constable and all these other I'm I'm conscious that our viewers  might think, "Oh, global. Isn't James just talking about the West when he talks about global?" Yeah,  I guess I am. Yeah. Yeah, I am. Yeah, I guess.

[00:15:11]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because of course, you know, I  suppose you could I mean, even but you couldn't travel to China in the 1780s. No, you couldn't  travel to Africa or you very unless you were going there to shoot an animal. You didn't go to people  or people. Yeah, exactly. Or you know, or to um to do other things. But yeah, so regular  people who regularly traveled, you know, it's the beginning of travel anyway. Do you think  that um Turner's Slave Ship was influenced by events in Africa or to do with Africa? I do. I mean, it's  called The Slave Ship, isn't it? Really, very Yeah.

[00:15:45]Again, if we compare him to other artists of the  period, I think Turner is doing current events.

[00:15:51]Yeah. Turner is Turner is doing what was happening  in the world right now, you know, and I think he was reading newspapers. He was getting information. And the thing about Turner is as well, let's not forget, you know, he he  would go to these dinner parties with royalty, not British royalty, but other royalty and and he would mix with these people. So he was hearing what was going on. So yes, I do think you  know, Rain Steam and Speed is connected with what was going on at the time. So a political artist.  He is a political artist. Yeah, definitely is a political artist. So and I think again that comes  from the outsider status. Yeah. I suppose in a way when you don't have to fit in then you can  do what you want, can't you? Yeah. It's um as long as you recognize it is like we talked about  in our first podcast that you know you can you can look at working class in many different ways and  one of the ways you can look at it at it as is as an advantage. You can see it as an advantage that  you can you can go up you know there's ways of going up. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of the special powers  as it were. Yeah. I think in his case Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:52]I think in his case class pushed him forward.  Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And of course there were supporters of his in from the upper echelon  should we say. Of course of course Ruskin was a a huge supporter of Turner and he was definitely  from the, not from Turner's milieu as it were.

[00:17:08]Yeah totally. I mean Ruskin is the most  important critic of the time, would you say?

[00:17:13]I'd say so. Yeah. Yeah. most important critic of the time  and he's supporting him by the 1840s roughly he starts supporting him and was a huge fan of his  and pushed him forward as well and propelled him. Yeah. I think he said that Turner is  as English as a cup of tea. Oh, did he?

[00:17:29]Little did he know that the tea was from India.  [laughter] Yeah. So, so he did have a he did have a lot of support. Well, you know, the thing is  um it doesn't matter about your class if you if you're a talented painter because people are  going to buy those paintings.

[00:17:41]They want them on their walls. They might not want Turner in their drawing rooms, but they do want  his paintings on their drawing rooms. Would you would you put The Slave Ship on your on your  wall? Possibly not. Yes. [laughter] Okay.

[00:17:53]So, there's a few Turners I might  not put on my wall, but you know, we have to think it's of its time as well. You  know, he was um But that is the time. I mean, that time, but the the the painting itself was  exhibited first at the Royal Academy in 1840.

[00:18:06]And uh this is a a significant period,  isn't it really? Because of course Britain had just almost just finished  um doing its slaving activities. Yeah.

[00:18:15]It'd been at it really since 1562 actually. Uh and  doing very well at it in fact. Uh but by um 1807 they they they abolished it sort of-ish. Uh  at least they abolished the um um slavery itself. The um the the trade rather than  the actual act of slavery. Uh by 1833 they' abolished the actual trade and the act as well.  the whole thing, you know, slavery as well by 1833 and then of course by then then it wasn't really  abolished. It was something called an apprentice scheme. So all the slaves had to work for the same  people for the still for no money but at least they got board and lodgings as it were, indentured  labor. Then they had to abolish it again by 1838 and then finally that was it. You know although  in the UK of course we celebrate the um or we commemorate the abolition in 2007. And I  remember doing it myself and in fact I contributed a book called the um Oxford Companion Guide to  Black British History and it was published in 2007 to mark that abolition year 2007. But of course  that's not the reality. In fact, the reality is that it was over really mostly by um 1838 really.  Uh and that's why I mean that two years later uh that's when Turner exhibits his Slave Ship. So it's pretty close. And do we have any records of his um attitudes towards slavery? We don't have  any records. Uh and well, actually he didn't leave many letters, did he? No, but he did leave a poem  attached to the actual painting, The Slave Ship.

[00:19:42]Oh, okay. Yeah. Which actually we haven't said  what The Slave Ship is, so maybe you could. Well, The Slave Ship was exhibited at the Royal Academy  in 1840. Uh, and it was, it's actually, the full title of of the actual painting is Slaves  Being Thrown Dead and Dying Overboard as it were, Oncoming. Well, it's called um uh Slavers Throwing  Overboard the Dead and Dying - Typhon Oncoming.

[00:20:05]That's the full title. But when he exhibited it,  he exhibited it alongside his own self-published poem. Okay. Um uh well, it's unpublished, but  called Fallacies of Hope. And in the poem he says, "Aloft all hands strike the top-masts and belay; / You angry setting sun and fierce-edged clouds / Declare the Typhon's coming. / Before it sweeps  your decks, throw overboard / The dead and dying - ne'er heed their chains / Hope, fallacy  fallacious Hope! / Where is thy market now?"

[00:20:34]So there's a reference there to slave markets and  reference to uh that and so on. But of course- That sounds pretty clear to me, what his attitude was. Yes. Yeah.  His attitude towards slavery. Uh and there we see him talking about slaves being thrown overboard,  dead and dying, etc., etc. Now, of course, there are those who say that this is in linked to the  Zong [Massacre], a true life event. In other words, it might be repotage as it were. Yeah. So,  the actual Zong [Massacre] happened in 1781.

[00:21:02]We know what happened then is that the the slaves  were thrown overboard. Uh now, when we look at the Turner painting, of course, there are slaves being  thrown overboard, which is absolutely right. Um so it does seem to be some sort of um much late  reportage as it were. So so just for people out there that's so the the the painting itself is  supposed to be an imaginary event. It's supposed to be an imaginary event. Yeah, that's the idea.  But there's a connection to it. Yes. It's supposed to the painting is supposed to be an imaginary  event, but there are many who still even now say that it's not an imaginary event. It's because  of Turner's political leanings and that in fact he was obliquely referencing in the Zong [Massacre]. Well, I don't know. I think that um sometimes you can take a personal stance on this and and I do  think that um that to do a painting like that must have been contentious at the time. I don't  know how contentious it was really because Ruskin thought it was absolutely brilliant. No, I I mean  contentious as in talking about a subject that was so so controversial, you know, and so being  discussed at the time. Yeah, that's what I mean by contentious. I don't mean it was a contentious image.  I mean it was a contentious time to do that image.

[00:22:12]So isn't that a statement in itself? Yeah. Because  the the close proximity of the abolition just you know couple of years before um yes does make  it somewhat contentious. And the people who are buying his paintings are from the aristocracy and  you know they're the people who are much against the slave trade being abolished. Yes. Exactly.  They're supporters, as it were. So I think that's very clear what he's saying. Yeah it is, isn't it?  But in the poem he he says, that it, it says "Ne'er heed their chains. / Hope, Hope, fallacious Hope! / Where  is thy market now?" Uh what he's saying there is that there's no time to take their chains off. We  just got to get rid of them chuck them overboard.

[00:22:52]We're in a bit of a storm which of course is  a um you know a natural disaster as it were.

[00:22:58]Whereas the Zong was not a natural disaster. There  was no storm. Uh and in fact it's known that they deliberately left the chains on the slaves so  that they could drown more easily, make sure that they went to the bottom. They didn't want them  to survive. So they let they deliberately left the chains on. So there's a slight um disparity  between what Turner is saying about his picture that they just left them on because they had  no time and there's a storm brewing. Whereas the Zong itself was in very very calm  waters. Everything was perfectly fine. Uh but what they realized is that they weren't going  to get enough money for them at market.

[00:23:33]So that's so maybe maybe in that case Turner  is obliquely referencing the true life event but also hedging his bets at the same time as well  because of his his client base you know but I mean the thing is with Turner as well you know he you  know unlike um people like Joshua Reynolds you know he didn't write about his work he didn't talk  about his work so much and so we don't know how he thought about his work and and I think this is a  language problem again in the fact that you know he wasn't brought up with that language and he  wasn't trained in how to write about his work. So, so I think that's interesting that maybe what he's  what he wants to say to us everything is on the canvas rather than on the page. Absolutely. But so  few artists even now know how to write about their work because there's something about art you know  what I always say about art is that I say I think that art is trying to do what words can't cannot  do. Yeah. uh and we so much rely on language as a way of communication. But language in fact is um  uh as has a paucity of meaning really there's this there's some nuances about the human condition  that language finds very difficult to express and I think painting and art is fills that void  that language cannot fill. So I think that you know when people are able to write about  their works let's say let's go back to Reynolds you know Reynolds of course was Turner's earliest  tutor at the Royal Academy while he was still an elderly man by then but he did teach the young  Turner but Reynolds wrote copiously. I've got some the discourses at home you know loads of stuff  but look at the paintings though by Reynolds.

[00:25:10]They're not as good as Turner's are they, really?  Um, I don't know if I agree with you because they're so different. So radically different,  but I absolutely love Reynolds. I really do love Reynolds. Well, as a master painter, as a master  painter, I think Turner has got everything else, though. You know, Turner is a master painter. But Reynolds doesn't paint from the heart, does he? He's academic and his and and he's all about  I mean, you know, in all of his self-portraits, it's just him wearing robes to show that  he's an academic. Yeah. And he, you know, he got lots of awards for being an academic, not  for being a painter. John Ruskin said about Turner that he doesn't show his hand, he shows his heart.  Yes. In other words, saying he's not showing off with his technique. He's showing what's inside  of him. Exactly. Turner paints from the heart.

[00:25:53]Reynolds paints from the head. Yeah. Uh and uh  and however, I really love Reynolds a lot. Really a lot. I think I don't think I don't think Turner  could have painted fabric like that, you know. So, well, only because he probably wouldn't want  to. He wouldn't want to. No. No. No, [laughter] what we could do in this podcast and actually  maybe in our future podcasts as well is actually talk about three paintings from each artist that  we particularly like. Not not just like also um if we think it's important or if we think it  means something. So just three iconic paintings for people who don't know Turner that not everyone  knows. Yes, good point. Three iconic paintings.

[00:26:30]Rain, Steam and Speed. There's an iconic painting, an excellent painting and the reason why it's so, it's radical because you've got this train rushing towards you.  It's a completely different perspective in terms of if you're going to paint a train, you  usually paint a train going from right to left or left to right, etc. and so on. But no, Turner paints a train coming straight at you.

[00:26:54]And not only that, it doesn't occupy the central  part of the painting, which is very odd indeed.

[00:26:59]It's off to the right of the painting. So it's  it's there's no central focal point in that picture. Uh, and when you look really closely,  all you can see is this train coming towards you.

[00:27:08]And of course, in the background, you've got  on the on the left hand side of the picture, you've got this viaduct, an old bridge. The  old bridge that the new bridge is replacing, that the train is now traveling on towards you.  And uh that that for me is um radical in terms of um his bravery in producing an  image that doesn't seem to um adear to the construction that the constructs or  compositional ideas that paintings are supposed to have. It's almost as though he invents his  own composition for that painting. A completely new composition that you've not seen before.  So for me that makes it a, you know, a totally radical painting. That's a painting that may  not have been done if he wasn't working class, I think, because it gave him that bravery  and that that that status. Um, I mean, it's 1844 that painting. So he must be in his  60s by then. Yes. Yeah. you know and um and you know at the same time you know artists  in other countries are painting um in paintings connected with the industrial revolution  but to paint trains to paint modern technology that was a new thing. Yeah. Absolutely new.  Yeah. And that and that painting is you know I mean this is what I think about that painting  because of the composition is it's coming towards the future. He wasn't afraid of what was happening  in the future and behind them is the past. You've got the maidens dressed in Greek outfits. You  know, you've got the rowing boat going off far in the distance and like you said, the  aqueduct, the the viaduct behind you and so and so you've got all the pass behind you and the  trains coming towards you and it's just genius.

[00:28:43]I love the details of that painting. I love the  fact that that train doesn't have a roof on it because it was a cheap ticket. Open carriage. Open  carriage was a cheap ticket. So people getting all their hair blown apart and all that kind of stuff.  Um it was a mess. I love the fact the rabbit on the the hare. Oh, the hare. Yeah, that's a that's  a much debated that hare.

[00:28:59]Is it a hare or is it just a smudge of paint? There's definitely not a debate. No? 100% no debate.

[00:29:03]100% really? Absolutely. It looks like a smudge of paint to me.

[00:29:07]100% it's, well, it's faded. There was a print done about four years after he painted it as we know.  And on that print there's the rabbit because at the time the hare, sorry, because you could see the  hare, whereas now you can't because the paint has faded. You think it's a conservation issue now?  It is a conservation issue. It's definitely 100% A hare. So the National Gallery should get in  there and put that hair back in, should they?

[00:29:30]Well, conservation is a whole different ball game.  So, I'm not going to get involved in that. But, you know, if you look at that print that was done,  I think it was four or five years afterwards.

[00:29:38]It's in my book. It's in my book. Yeah.  So, there was there was a this [laughter] So, there was a print done of that where the  hair is right there, you know, so you could see it at the time. Okay. So, so and of course  the hare is out trying to race away from the.. It's time. Well, it is it's all about time, but it's  also about the past and the future, you know. So, So is technology going to be a force for good or  a force for evil? Well, he thought he thought it was a force for good. Turner thought it was  a force for good, and he saw the good in it, you know, and and you know, we don't understand  this, but steam trains at the time, it was going at unheard of um speeds like 30 mph. Well, people thought you couldn't breathe, didn't they?

[00:30:18]They thought you couldn't breathe if things went faster than 30 mph. And of course you got Queen Victoria you know a very a big train enthusiast and the  whole country was going crazy. Yeah. And because you know the story that Ruskin writes about  this doesn't he? He writes about the actual painting in his book. Okay. No. Yeah. No. Well Ruskin  says that um um he heard this story about a woman who got on a train on a busy day. It's raining  like cats and dogs like it is outside at the moment really. Uh and uh the train was ready to  leave and then they had those closed carriages then, you know, and uh and this chap gets on uh with  steely um eyes looking straight directly at forward but not at her and uh as the train started  to pick up speed and pull out of the station. The same guy then got up, pulled down those pull-down  windows they used to have, then stuck his head out and then the train just started going with his  head stuck out the window and then [laughter] and then he pulled his head back in and he was covered  in soot clearly and totally drenched from rain.

[00:31:17]And she thought that was very queer  back when queer was queer. [laughter] And uh and and then the next day apparently  she went to the Royal Academy, saw this painting unveiled and she said, "Ah, that must  have been Mr. Turner." Oh, right. [laughter] Well, look, look, in the end, people said  to Ruskin, "We don't we're not sure if this is actually true, the story, but Ruskin  said it makes a great story and printed it anyway." Who guess? Yeah, exactly. The stories  are good. You know, I mean, he wasn't the only one. Monet was painting trains, the Impressionists painted trains, because there comes a period you know, so this is 1844, that painting, right?

[00:32:01]Yeah, but Monet's Gare St. Lazare is 1870? Yeah.

[00:32:03]it's later but you know it's 30 years' difference  but you know the point is that the camera had been invented by this point you know so you know you  could you could take a picture of something so that's why this whole he turner is doing these  different types of paintings but I want to come back to queen Victoria and and I want to come  back to snobbishness of the British because the British are known for their snobbishness for a  good reason. Because they are snobby.

[00:32:26]So, we talk about Turner being accepted. Except for us by the way. We're not snobby.

[00:32:30]We're so not snobby at all. No. No. We're just English but not snobby.

[00:32:33][laughter] Well,  you're quite snobby really. I don't know what do you James.

[00:32:38][laughter] No. But Turner was accepted in society, you know.  He really was. So he would go to these very fancy events. He was a Royal acad-... Academician.

[00:32:50]Academician. I find that word very difficult to say. I can't say the other word, you know. Okay. When he  was 27. Yes. 27. So, and he was the youngest ever Royal Academician. Yeah. Yeah. So, um he was  accepted in all these amazing places. And he was also um accepted he was a good friend of the  French monarch who was Louis Philippe, you know, Louis Phipe the First but the royal family never  liked him and and interestingly um none of his paintings entered the Royal Collection. It's kind  of interesting that, you know, despite the fact that he was accepted, the the royal family, the  Prince Regent and Queen Victoria and Albert didn't accept him and they didn't accept him. Would Louis  Philippe have accepted him if he was French?

[00:33:32]Yes. Yeah. You think so? Yes. Because has  he just accepted him just because you know, you know, it's like you're foreigner abroad.  People seem to like you, don't they, James? Yeah, I know. It's true. I know exactly what  you're saying. I think in this case, yes, because Louis Phillipe was trying to like  prove that he was a little bit egalitarian, right? You know, but anyway, he's so and he didn't  even have to dye his hair or block and he's going to get deposed soon anyway. So, better and end up  in Chiswick, I think, or somewhere like that. So, but anyway, so let's go back to our three paintings. So, we  both like Rain, Steam, and Speed. What's the full name of the title? It's got a longer name. Oh,  it's got a longer name. Turner loved long names, didn't he? Long descriptive names. I always  think that his his titles of his paintings sound like telegrams. Yeah. And it just  goes on and on and on. Exactly. Anyway, what what what have you got in your mind? Fighting Temeraire is of course which is a bit earlier. So there's 1839. Um I love that painting. I love  everything about it. It's and I do think it's a poignant um painting. It's all about um it's all  about the sadness of the past being left behind. I think there's a working-class element to it as  well about people losing their jobs as well.

[00:34:39]Yeah. I suppose all the shipwrights, all the ships  were Yeah. they were changing. Yeah. Um and I also do you know why I like it the most? Cuz I think  it's one of the most technically proficient paintings of his. I think it's beautiful.  Just Yeah. There's something un-Turner-like about that painting, isn't there? Yeah. Because it  doesn't have that sort of uh I suppose um diffuse um uh abstractness about it as his later paintings  do, you know. Yeah. But there still there's still, you know, there's still the the element of light  that he's looking at. You know, if there's one thing we can say about Turner, it's light. Light, light, light, you know and I think that painting in particular is like at the you know at the at the  edges of his him turning. Yes. Yeah. Going into into abstraction as it were but you know what both  paintings have in common both the Rain Steam and Speed and the Fighting Temeraire is that they both look  to the past and the future at the same time. Yeah.

[00:35:29]Yeah. Of course the steam tug in the Fighting Temeraire is the future isn't it? It's steam. And you know in both paintings although it seems to be totally  revolutionary what Turner is doing actually it's kind of old school and and the reason why I say  that is that if you look at painters from the past um what they did to represent the past was to  paint the past in light colors and the present in full color. Right. Yeah. Uh and there are plenty  of examples that painters have done that before Like Claude Lorrain. Claude did that. Yeah. Claude did  that and of course Turner was inspired by Claude clearly. uh but also painters that you never even  heard of. There's a painter called Joachim Wtewael.

[00:36:09]Joachim Wtewael is painted in about the early 17th  century 1615 thereabouts and uh some of his paintings do exactly that. You know there's  one of his paintings which is actually about the judgment of Paris and that's Greek myths but  in the background he's painted the prequel to it and the prequel is a muted colors and you know  we still do this now on TV programs don't we?

[00:36:30]You know, if you're watching a reality program  at home, folks, you know, they want to show you the past. What they show you is the past  in black and white or in a muted colors. So, and I guess the Turner is painting in the same  colors, right? Yeah. So, well, he's making it part of the whole painting. Yeah. But he's using muted  colors to represent the past. If you look at that, if you look at the Temeraire itself in Fighting Temeraire  yeah, they're going in the distance. It's in a it's in a a white sort of haze color, whereas the  steam tug in front of it is in full vibrant color, isn't it? really you think well there's no  need for it to be that light color is it the Temeraire itself because they've got this glowing  red sunset going on behind it at the same time although it must be said the sunset's happening  in the same- Or sunrise. Yeah sunrise, or a sunrise yeah is it sunset or sunris? Yeah well it it's you  know you could sum that painting up by saying it's a dawning of a new age you know it really is  it's like the Anyway we need to move on so what's your second painting what would be your second  painting my my my second painting for Turner uh would be any of his watercolors from  this, These are sublime watercolors that you It's probably on your list as well, James. I'm  afraid it is. Yeah. [laughter] Well, I mean, in my opinion, and not actually not just  my opinion, in many people's opinion, Turner is the greatest watercolor artist  in history. That's quite bold. That's a really bold statement and it's opinionated.  But I think he was the greatest watercolist in history. Revolutionary, inventive. Um he  broke every rule in the book. Yeah. You know, he used scalpels. He he gouged the the paper out  and you can even see his fingerprints. And you can see his fingerprints if we're talking about  the artist presence. That's very very present.

[00:38:08]Yeah. Yeah. And and a lot of that technique is in,  of course, another one of my favorite paintings, of course, and that's the snowstorm. Yeah.  That's an absolute sublime painting because the horizon disappears for one and you just  don't know where you are compositionally.

[00:38:23]You're in the middle of this storm. Uh and and uh  and of course his critics accuse him of throwing whitewash and sub so some white wash at the  paint. Yeah. There's this it's almost a white out is it really? And right at the center there's  this ship struggling against all the elements.

[00:38:39]And I think what's great about Turner, I  think you're right about this as well, is that um uh Turner paints the landscape or paints  nature as it is rather than it being subdued uh to be the background of some great country manner uh  belonging to someone in the ownership of someone.

[00:38:56]You know, land has always been about ownership in  England, hasn't it really? Turner doesn't seem to care about whether the land is owned or not. He  just cares about actual nature itself. I mean, I think if you put that painting side by side  with Mr. and Mrs. Andrews, Yes. They're both landscape paintings, but they're so radically different.  They're on on two different levels. Yeah. You would think, although I like both, but you'd think  they were from different eras. Yeah. Exactly. And they're not, which is really interesting. And, you  know, and Turner was very very heavily criticized at the time for his um for the fact that you  couldn't see the shore from the sea, you know, not just in that painting, but most of his  paintings. Well, he broke the compositional rules. He broke all the compositional rules and  he was also um dismissed for it. But you know I think by this time he's so wealthy he's got so  much money he's got so much property. He's like whatever I'll paint what I want you know. So well  James look I'm conscious that we are coming to the end of I'll be coming to the end. But didn't have  any ends. That's the point. All right. [laughter] So for Turner there was no beginning and no end.  Yeah. It was all just that's how life is though isn't there really? Yeah. [laughter] Oh, hello.  Yeah. Yeah. There's no Yeah. Because it just goes on. There's a continuation. You see, this  podcast is not just about art. It's about life and philosophy. Yeah. And art is life and life is art.  Really? But really? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's MGM's logo, I think. [laughter] Latin one. But  anyway, I would say that um as a last word for for for me, Turner is in my top three artists.  Not just because of his his working-class origins, just because I think he's a supreme master  of technique. I think there's a reason that um he he is where he he is and I think even  as a child with no artistic background I knew who Turner was and I think the reason why Turner  is where he is is because uh all of Britain got a really guilty conscience for sidelining him  after he died uh [snorts] because after he died of course he wanted all his works to go to the  nation and of course it ended up in a basement in Tate Britain and famously the basement flooded  when Thames flooded and lots of work got damaged and critics basically didn't like it, didn't  think anything of Turner. Turner has only been recently revived by Britain as a as the  nation's favorite painter. And because he'd only been recently revived, they've all the whole  nation's got a guilty conscience. I thought we've and that they're overcompensating now. And we're  probably part of that as well, actually, James, you know, overcompensated for for the neglect  that Turner had after he died from this nation.

[00:41:22]So, um hopefully now uh we can get over it and uh  and move on. And I [laughter] and I think um you know if anyone does want to see Turner's work  then the Tate is the place. You know he he bequeeved his um his works to the nation and they  have the most unbelievable huge huge collection.

[00:41:39]The best collection of Turner paintings in the  world Tate Britain. Yeah. Thank you very much.

[00:41:45]Thank you for listening to this podcast and we  will be back next time with even more banter.