The Dollar System MUST Collapse and Reset | Jeff Booth

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[00:00:00]If it was true, then it means you've been lied to your entire life and all of your models of reality are wrong. There is no better AI investment than Bitcoin.

[00:00:10]>> All of the productivity gains >> because in a free market prices fall to the marginal cost of production.

[00:00:14]>> It's not an application on top of something like Amazon is an application on top of the internet. It is >> the base layer.

[00:00:22]>> It only survives by your belief that it's solvent. Your actions within this monetary system give it strength. I see stable coins, of course, as the most likely avenue towards the surveillance state.

[00:00:35]>> Surveillance state.

[00:00:36]>> What do you mean? I'm holding I'm just holding dollars. How am I funding war in the Middle East? How am I like paying for all these terrible things?

[00:00:43]>> And I woke up one night similar to you.

[00:00:44]And I went, "Wow, I'm a hypocrite.

[00:00:46]>> I'm not doing this because I think it's the right thing. I'm doing it because I'm a coward."

[00:00:50]>> And those cycles speed up and speed up and speed up and it's bound to be very chaotic.

[00:00:55]>> How fast do you think it could happen?

[00:00:59]Welcome back to Market Disruptors. My name is Jake Croquet and today I'm joined by the great and powerful Jeff Booth. The man who I would say he probably needs little to no introduction around here, but I you know I want this episode on the first half at least to be laying out your general thesis. I want it to be something that that Bitcoiners can send to normie friends, people who are new to the this type of conversation. So, I'm going to try and ask questions from that perspective as we start. Um, but yeah, I want to focus on I feel like a lot of your thesis is tied to Bitcoin is not just like technically good. It's not just good as an investment, but it's something that is good for humanity, good for the the flourishing of our species broadly. Um, and so I think it'd be cool to start there, laying out your thesis on that, and then on the back half, I'd love to dig into some deeper questions about your personal story, who you are, where you come from, and maybe some of the deeper questions about your work as well. Um, so first, if you could just give a little introduction for those who had this sent to them, they've never heard of Jeff Booth. Um, yeah. How how do you introduce yourself when you're starting off this conversation?

[00:02:10]>> I don't even I don't even know. I always been an always been an entrepreneur. Um technology entrepreneur essentially using ran a building company uh uh ran a real estate company. Um uh through the building company found a problem that I wanted to solve in uh and used using technology to do that. um so early on the internet um built a very large um almost Amazon of building products um that grew to about a half a million dollar half a billion dollars in value um in its peak um lived the ride in technology through kind of um call it 98 to 2017 and couldn't understand why uh uh why uh why if there was all this productivity emerging in the world that I was using to create value and everyone I knew was using to create value that prices weren't falling. Um so I wrote a book exploring that in in 2019 um that that explained what would happen as two incompatible systems crashed into each other. Um the free market which should make prices fall because the free market we we have to serve somebody else. We have to create value for somebody else and they choose the value and that in should make prices fall because we are part of that market that it was budding into a credit based system essentially money that was lent into existence that couldn't allow those prices to fall or broad-based prices to fall and that set up a a a conflict that could not be resolved through the existing system. So that's the book I I wrote in uh 2019. It turned into an international bestseller. Um and and and that same problem still exists today and is being resolved is being resolved um in real time by Bitcoin and on the other side by a system that's inflating monetary units that most people are measuring Bitcoin through. So nothing's changed. Everything I wrote about in the book is actually on exactly the path that you would expect it to be if if you had exponential technology um trying to make our lives better that was being stopped and centralized by a system that was was essentially manipulating monetary units.

[00:04:44]>> So you say that the old system manipulation of monetary units that is the problem that Bitcoin is looking to solve. Yeah. And and and this is a hard thing. So So even like just before we go there, just a lot of the stuff I say um will the first time you hear it, the second time you hear it, the third time you hear it, will you you'll want to resist it um because you've never lived in um a free market. You've never truly lived in a free market. And you don't want to believe that. You want to believe that you have that the capitalism is a free market. But but if prices are meant to fall in a free market and we have to create value globally to create more value for somebody else and prices don't fall when we choose more value.

[00:05:32]How could the market that we've always lived in be free?

[00:05:35]>> Mhm.

[00:05:36]>> It's impossible. Right. And that sets up a conflict that that is in your brain that you kind of say, well there's no way it can be totally free.

[00:05:46]those those people need to manage money.

[00:05:49]There needs to be some inflation. How much inflation and and all of their your your mental models that are just destroyed from the just the statement I made. You don't want it to be true because if it was true then it means you've been lied to your entire life and all of your models of reality from that lie are wrong. Um, and your identity is is inside that lie. So, so why this is so hard to uh uh to grasp is is it's outside your your your knowledge base. It's outside most people's knowledge base, it was outside my knowledge base. Um, and and things that are outside uh those are really hard to really hard to believe. You've mentioned how when you say the phrase the natural state of the free market is deflation.

[00:06:48]People you you I've noticed listening to a few of your podcast even the first time you say it even for those who they're hearing it for the first time and they vaguely know these words what they mean. They're like wait yes that makes sense. As you said in the free market exchange you have this consensual exchange of value. So in every exchange each participant is happier after the exchange. I want your dollar. you want my burrito? We exchange them. I want the dollar more than I want the burrito.

[00:07:15]We're all happier as a result of that, right?

[00:07:17]>> Yeah.

[00:07:17]>> Um yet the the burrito the burrito uh producer or the produ um faces competition from everybody else attacking their margin >> trying to make better burritos.

[00:07:30]>> And what do we choose? We choose the best. Right? Same thing as a and so so it's that competitive force. you have a globally competitive force trying to deliver us value and we're on the other side of that. Whether we work inside a company that's part of that globally competitive force trying to deliver value or we work as the founder of a company trying to deliver value. Um both things exist. You can only you can only s serve in the free market if you provide more value because otherwise people don't use you anymore. You fail spectacularly fail. And so the money that you invest in your company and all your time if you don't provide more value in a free market you fail because people don't use you. Um and so so yes.

[00:08:21]So, so um and then if you extended that and you said the rails of underlying that were using technology that was moving exponentially and that you had we had now had tools to provide tremendous more value to other people and if we didn't use the tool essentially remove labor with technology then our price or service would be too high and somebody else who'd used the tool would win the market.

[00:08:51]Why? Because we choose more value.

[00:08:55]Um, so it's not those other people. It's us choosing value inside a system that ensures prices have to fall and value goes up.

[00:09:08]But we're measuring what I just described through a system that can't allow that to happen. So the other system has to centralize and government gets bigger and regulations get bigger and and manipulation gets bigger and and fraud gets bigger and centralization gets bigger and and surveillance state gets stronger and every single thing from that other system. has to happen because it's based on a flaw in a monetary setup where credit money has to expand forever and the natural state of the free market is the opposite. So those those two systems are irreconcilable. They're opposites.

[00:09:53]>> So in layman's terms, prices should be getting going down, right? We have techn technological advancements. We have productivity gains. We have people using their human ingenuity to find more and more creative, productive, efficient ways to create the products. Yet everything for my whole life I've looked around, everything's been getting more expensive forever. Gas is going up, >> burritos are going up. I saw that Taco Bell >> education, uh, uh, health, everything.

[00:10:26]>> Right. Right. Even Taco Bell chicken quesadillas. Somebody I saw somebody posted this on X yesterday. They were like a dollar 10 years ago or something and now they're 375 and they're telling us that CPI inflation is 3% 2%. Whatever they're saying. I mean they were saying it was a little higher during the pandemic during this time. But in reality we're seeing like I think it was a 371% increase over the course of the past 10 years. And so a lot of the things that we really need are becoming devalued or or are increasing in price.

[00:10:56]And then they find these alternatives to cook the books with CPI essentially on top of that. And so, >> so can I can I just co pause there for one second because I think it's really important in the framing. And then you see these charts that go around and they go viral every kind of two months. And it's >> it's technology products kind of falling in price.

[00:11:18]Um thing like TV is getting more and more value, computers more and more value all the time falling falling price like I said. And then you see education, health, anything the government's invol involved with regulation um trying to protect monopolies, bigger government all rising in price. And so then people people hang on to my thesis and they see they say see prices should fall but not everywhere. some prices should rise unaware that that denominator for all of those things is through broken money and all prices essentially through monetary units that have to infinitely expand. So now if you measure all things through monetary units that have to infinitely expand then it would appear that thing prices some prices are rising and some would for falling. If you didn't, you would see all prices would fall at different rates, >> but all prices would fall.

[00:12:18]>> So, how do we how does Bitcoin bring forward that future? It's a mixture of, you know, the technological revolution that we're seeing, the advancements that AR AI is bringing as well. But but how would a Bitcoin standard bring forward that world where we're all seeing those gains those productivity gains distributed to all of us in the form of lower prices like how does how do those two things connect?

[00:12:44]>> Um so so if you start with uh if there were only 21 million units and that couldn't be changed. So, so I always say if Bitcoin stays decentralized and secure and you can why I say if is so people take action to realize that they are part of the decentralization security they can run a node. They're essentially Bitcoin is them. Like I am not changing my node to increase number of units. I don't know any Bitcoiner who runs a node that all things have to go through that would ever do that because you would be you'd be hurting yourself by by doing so. So So now if you have a decentralized uh protocol decentralized and secure protocol that cannot be broken by the existing system no matter what it does right it can't break that. Now, I just want to pause there and just assume I'm right for now, right? Um, and and then we can dial into where are the risks of that breaking at later. But just assume this stays decentralized and secure forever. Um, then you have a protocol bounded by energy that's decentralized and secure that's hardcapped to 21 million units.

[00:13:59]What would that what would that tell you about the world if you were measuring from that protocol? What would you expect to see? You'd expect to see the productivity gains from all of AI, from all things, every single thing measured against that that that protocol would be the first free market that ever existed. And price it would be imposing that because it couldn't be changed.

[00:14:26]So, it'd be imposing a new reality that didn't care about your model of reality or your infinite units of dollars.

[00:14:35]And as long as you were in self-custody and not moving your coins back to somebody else, giving yourself then then it would be the first time that you could actually take a in the world and um that you could actually take agency in something that protected you and protected the world. But it when I say imposing, it's that's a really intentional word.

[00:14:59]It doesn't care about me. Every 10 minutes there's a new block. It's decentralized and secure. For 17 years it there's no breaks.

[00:15:09]Um and so why this is so hard to gro is because we've never seen something like this. And so people think it's a technology rather than a protocol. and technologies come are very different than protocols. So protocols emerge in in layers um like the internet and they emerge and they deliver more and more functionality on top of layers. So they really secure at the bottom and they extend their functionality in layers that uh that grow over time. And so if you um and most most people who missed the internet in 1989, right, what was going to happen in 1995 and 19 in 2000? I remember when I started my internet company, how many of my friends said, "You're insane. The internet's a joke, right?" And and and that was 1998.

[00:16:04]1999, just the beginning of 1999. So I thought I was late, but how early I was on that now. But the internet didn't start in 1989.

[00:16:16]The internet started in 1969.

[00:16:20]So, so now, now imagine you have this view of what Bitcoin is from this and you're used to technology cycles and you're used to the internet. And how many people like I remember when I was running my company, I remember in 2000 collapse where Amazon went um from $128 to $3. And how many people said Amazon was dead? But how many people held on?

[00:16:46]And the internet didn't change, right?

[00:16:47]The adoption rate on the internet was straight up to the right the entire time. But the belief in the what the internet could come was was very in the companies on top of it. Now adjust that back to what I just said. Adjust it back to a protocol that you're not investing in a company on top of Bitcoin. You're investing in the base protocol.

[00:17:11]And now you're extending that 1989 example back to 1969.

[00:17:16]How many people will hold Bitcoin and not trade it for a piece of paper through the cycle the cycle that's coming?

[00:17:26]And I would say very very few because they're gonna they're going to think they got rich in a piece of paper or try to get let try to get yield from a system that doesn't allow yield unless you're consolidating into the other system, centralizing into the other system. They're going to trade their Bitcoin for a piece of paper. So, so this is going to be really chaotic as this new system imposes a new discipline across the across the world. It imposes the first free market that's ever existed.

[00:18:01]But you can tune out of it. You can tune out of all the nonsense and you can be a part of that new new system that's imposing that reality. But just even what I just said, how complicated that would be, how how how crazy that would be for our brains because we've never seen a model like this.

[00:18:22]>> And so the the one of the primary distinguishing things that I think is important for people to wrap their heads around is that it's investing in Bitcoin is like right you the TCP IP layer of the internet. So the difference between it is it's not an application on top of something like Amazon is an application on top of the internet. It is >> bingo >> the base layer. The difference between an application and a protocol is the protocol is the foundation on which all of their applications are built. And >> that's not just a company. Yeah.

[00:18:54]>> Exactly. Now extend. Exactly. That was a really well really well said. Now extend what you're just saying. It means you're participating in the productivity of the entire world competing for you. your part your participatory network in the first free market and every single human adding their productivity adds to your benefit.

[00:19:17]>> The first free market >> any first free market that's ever existed, >> right?

[00:19:22]>> And and and that productivity all acrru to any holder of Bitcoin in self-custody um in uh and you can expect tons of fight from the existing system. You could expect manipulation. You could expect consolidation. You could could expect all all of these fights. We can talk about those those risks. Quantum threat. This you could expect to anything to detach you from self-custody and running a node. You could expect fear, coercion, control from a centralized system that's always been centralized from our actions to attack.

[00:19:59]So, so through through that then you have to you you step out and you start to claim your own agency and understand what what would the world look like if I was right and what would the what would the attacks look like if I was right and what do I need to do but that means what what you were just talking about because it's not an application on top you're part of the protocol it means there is no better AI investment than Bitcoin because it's the sum total of All AI, >> all of the productivity gains, >> it's all the competition, all of the productivity gains and all of the AI companies are in service of a system that can't be manipulated. And so they appear in Bitcoin and in in in prices falling against Bitcoin. That's where they would that's what they would appear >> and they would and it would be really easy to mistake that if you're in the other system for that is is needs that can't allow AI to unwind that here's a different take even on AI. What if AI wasn't a company as everybody's the the num the amount of dollars going into AI companies thinking that it's a controllable resource like like a like like an Amazon that network effects would win at all.

[00:21:24]It it baffles me because every new every second day there's a new model that beats the old model and everybody moves and you're constantly getting more and more value all the time and everybody's moving all the time. So there is no moat. So what if it isn't that and all of the money going into it isn't that but it's a it's a horizontal technology like like electricity where there is no moat.

[00:21:54]And because in a free market prices fall to the marginal cost of production. And so what we're find what you're seeing in AI is what I just described. But the the misallocation of resources and money into AI is the opposite. Like it's an Amazon.

[00:22:12]And so, so now all that money, >> all that money, much of which has already gone to money heaven has to be bailed out or many of the companies that that are doing this are going to be be destroyed.

[00:22:28]>> What is what does that mean? Money heaven.

[00:22:31]>> I think I've heard Larry say this before, but >> Yeah, exactly. I got it from Larry, but the money's already gone. It's a So, just like the money in 2008 was already gone. it was if it if it was gone, if it was marked to market, the entire system would default and go to zero. So instead of marking it to market, we papered over the whole thing and stole money from stole tons of money from savers and and wage earners and transferred it to assets >> to paper over temporarily >> to pay to paper over. And every time we paper over that because the money the money can't be repaid. So the the money is already it's already insolvent. The entire system is insolvent. It only survives by your belief that it's solvent.

[00:23:21]Your your actions within this monetary system that's stealing from you.

[00:23:27]Give it strength.

[00:23:29]That's what and and eventually in in all times through history as money breaks down, people start to realize money breaking down and make it money not just money breaking down but everything breaking down because money is breaking down and they start to rise up.

[00:23:50]So you're you're just seeing a hint of what's coming from that from from the other system, not Bitcoin. Mhm.

[00:23:57]>> And it does not Bitcoin isn't it the the other system would blow up no matter if Bitcoin existed or or didn't exist because it's it's been insolvent for a long time. It's and more more than insolvent.

[00:24:10]The natural state of the free market can't allow that system. So one system has to win.

[00:24:17]>> You either have a free market or you have complete control system.

[00:24:20]>> Can't can't they're incompatible together.

[00:24:23]>> Right. I think this I think this realization is what drives a lot of the I'd almost say like I'd almost say extremism perhaps extremism like among Bitcoiners. I think it's the realization of like we're at the crossroads and we have that the technological innovation is here. It's happening and we're at this crossroads that I see between free market and control system between decentralized freedom money and authoritarian surveillance state central bank digital currencies. And it's kind of funny because a lot of people, >> you know, I see stable coins of course as the most likely >> avenue towards >> surveillance >> surveillance state. Yes. And it's funny because they're they're grouped to the Genius Act, the Clarity Act. We've had, you know, >> name name an act that was in service of you. Patriot Act, right? Inflation reduction act. N it's it's almost like these things are named perfectly to be the exact opposite of what they are.

[00:25:26]>> You asked me the question is is my audience more Bitcoin or gold? Where where do I fall on that? While we were fixing a technical difficulty and for me, I became Bitcoin only basically. you know, I it's it's actually not totally true. I'm probably like 95% Bitcoin.

[00:25:43]There's a couple companies that, you know, I hold a little bit of MSTR. Um, a couple other things, you know, that I just find interesting. I just want to keep tabs. I want to feel what it feels like to hold, you know, I just like because I study these, you know, and so I want to feel, you know, I feel like I understand it better when I have a little bit of skin in the game and I can just feel what it's like, you know. Um, but but I came to the same realization that you did. It was actually we could we'll skip to this now. I had a plan for later, but it was more of a spiritual decision than anything, I'd say. I had this like overtly uh I was living in Bali, Indonesia for a little while, and I had this like this was doing some like digging into my soul, so to speak, and and there was this in in a part of it that it hit me where I was like, I think that this thing is good. I think that the surveillance state that's growing, that the tech monopolies that are growing are like a big danger to the well-being of humanity. Yet, I'm giving them my monetary energy because I want a return on it. And I mainly was not all in in Bitcoin at that point in time. This was 2021 or 22, I think early 22, was because I was afraid. I realized that I was like, I'm not doing this because I think it's the right thing. I'm doing it because I'm a coward. And that's when it hit me where I like it was whatever it was. It was it was an evening in Indonesia that day, but the markets were open and I set orders on everything. I said S&P 500, Google, Apple, all these companies that I think are are like, you know, using my economic energy to do evil things to usher in a world that I don't want to see. And I sold everything. And we were down 50% from the highs, I believe, at that point in time. Converted it all into Bitcoin, ate another 50% draw down. I was like, "Oh, ouch. Maybe I should have waited for my >> spiritual awakening, you know, a couple months." But, uh, but that was, you know, that was a key point to where I went, you know, and and even even holding in dollars. We're talking about the Genius Act, the Patriot Act. You're supporting this system that I don't like the direction that it's heading. Yeah.

[00:27:53]>> Yeah.

[00:27:53]>> Could you could you maybe connect the dots for people? People are like, "What do you mean? I'm holding I'm just holding dollars. How am I funding war in the Middle East? How am I like paying for, you know, all these terrible things?

[00:28:05]>> First of I think this is important for kind of how this would feel because I actually feel the exact same thing. And this was why I started Ego Death Capital because I was I was living a lie. Like I was telling everybody why they needed Bitcoin and all of my energy was in the other system and I had all my investments and boards in the other system. And I and I woke up one night, similar to you, and I and I went, "Wow, I'm a hypocrite, right? I'm telling everybody that, but but really I'm all I'm doing is I'm te I'm trying to make more money in the existing system and convert it. I'm going to be safe, but everybody else is going and and I'm giving all my energy to the system that is incompatible with where I believe where I want the world to go." And and I didn't actually recognize it was it was like it it was it was it's a exactly what happened to you. Like it's a subconscious layer that you don't want to you don't want to see in yourself. You don't want to see that fear in yourself.

[00:29:03]You don't want the the lies you tell yourself that it's somebody else and everything else. And so claiming my own agency and moving my time to to this I I wouldn't be able to see what I see now unless and nothing in this other system fear I have no fear what I'm just spending my time where I want similar similar to you similar to then you find a way to do podcasts and connect with people that that you want to connect to and everything gets easier like way easier but to try to explain that to somebody who is still on the ledge right and making and their identity is still in this and the fear and they what what they do I know how hard it is cuz I went through it myself it's not a and so I don't try to everybody everybody in their own time but you did the you did the same thing so now if we connect this to why that's true it's really simple if you're not living in the natural state of a free market which is deflation if you're not in that in that system. If you're using the dollars that are funding the other system, it's not somebody else, it's you.

[00:30:15]But there will always be another hero, another villain to to make you feel better about yourself that will divide you from other people that you'll say, "Yes, Elon's right.

[00:30:29]Should be universal high income."

[00:30:31]Without asking, "Where did the money come from in the first place?" and who who's going to own the means of production that steals more from me to tell me what to do, right? And so it's it's you look up to these people and we bias to experts and we bi we have an authority bias. We bias to we don't know we bias to to the money, but we bias to th those people and then when somebody says something that challenges who we are in that it's really difficult for our brains to accept. So, so that's why this is going to be a massive challenge because it is true. It's 100% true.

[00:31:09]Every time I use a US dollar or send a piece of paper that is solely based on manipulation, then I'm part of the manipulation.

[00:31:21]>> Yeah. Theft at the point of a gun essentially that you support by participating whether you know it or not.

[00:31:28]>> In you gave this great speech at Madera.

[00:31:30]I think it's like uh the the Bitcoin conference in Madera. I feel like it's criminally undervalued or undervalued. I mean um so I wanted to link that in the description here for people to go check out after this. But there's a couple really important points you made in it.

[00:31:45]The first you were talking about these cobalt mines in Africa, right? And we have electric vehicles. Cobalt is something that the world needs a lot of.

[00:31:54]Yet this country that has um great reserves of it >> 70% of the world's cobalt.

[00:32:02]>> Wow. The more than I thought they are not becoming wealthy off from it. There there's children working in mines for 30 cents an hour or whatever it is to to extract this. They ship it out across the world. And and basically this I' I'd love for you to explain it. Essentially in the United States, we've come to a point in the past, at least since 1971, where we export inflation, we export printed money, we export theft essentially, and we import goods for that. And you were connecting how how how these things are connected. I wonder if you could lay this out better than I can here. Like how does using the dollar basically facilitate the slavery of people overseas or near slavery of people overseas as a result? So, so if if you go back to what let's you go back further and say what what did gold do kind of put a we've always lived in the zero sum game and gold would allow um you to to essentially force the productivity further further but because gold was always centralized we would invade other countries or how did a tiny country like the UK become the flag never sets sets or the sun never sets on the British Empire, right? How is that possible from the resources there? Because if you had a big war machine and you could put somebody else in slavery and and um and take their resources and have them work on your monetary system, then you have a zero- sum game with if you're at the top of that zero sum game and um it looks good to you because you're extracting from the world. it looks really poor for the person being extracted from and that kept on resolving itself in various ways and a new country would exist and in fact the US was the closest to a free market that we ever had. um in the rise of the US was immigrants from all over the world moving to the US and where their ideas would serve other people and it would be more productive and the rise of the US because of that productivity was destroying the banking cartels elsewhere which to which the banking cartels had to drive in a central bank into the pass >> to re regain power. And so the constitution >> when was that?

[00:34:31]>> That was 1913.

[00:34:32]>> Okay.

[00:34:33]>> And and and the constitution prohibits uh prohibits that um but it u but it slowly stripped away rights. Um gold was taken in 1933 and repriced um uh and and again in 1971. And it slowly removes rights. People don't realize it because it happens so slowly and then it happens faster and faster and faster.

[00:34:58]>> So, but but what drove the productivity of the US was ideas in our brains with people that moved from all over to take advantage to live in free live in freedom.

[00:35:12]And then and then you had a central bank that exported a model through through manipulated money to you didn't have to go to war anymore. You just had to control oil reser reserves control the straits because you linked essentially energy money to oil. And if people priced in oil oil in your money, it made your money money stronger and everybody else had to operate on your system. And if they didn't operate on your system, they were invaded puppet dictators, right? if um if they did operate and and so this this created this essentially monetary system that that that created uh slavery through a monetary system where you didn't have to go there, right? You could just devalue their currency over and over and over again and destroy their labor and extract their materials way cheaper.

[00:36:08]>> Yeah. So, not only is this extraction of value, of course, happening to to users of the United States dollar network, right? If you're holding currency on it, let's say there's a a million currency units just for a number and you create another 100,000, everybody on that network's money becomes worth 10% less.

[00:36:27]But then also globally, we have essentially at the point of a gun at the threat of military violence have enforced United States treasuries as the global reserve asset, which that's declining. gold recently passed treasuries as central bank reserve holdings. But all of those other countries who back their currencies with United States treasuries, as we devalue our our currency, we're also devaluing the currencies of everybody else who's made that decision.

[00:36:52]>> Right. And the other currencies lose money faster than the US dollar.

[00:36:56]>> Right.

[00:36:56]>> Right. So So you just have this you have this game you have this this game that circular reference of a game that who controls the currency controls the world.

[00:37:06]>> Mhm. And every hundred years we >> and and that and that who who controls the current currency and and it's completely extractive. It's not the free market at all. It's imposing um and and if you control the currency, it's not completely great for for US citizens either. It's really great for the financial military-industrial complex, the financial complex. Um but it's really bad for average citizens of the US because because it has to be extractive at a higher and higher higher level and and and what you have to have um high labor rates high uh you on one side of the balance and because the zero sum game sorry the zero the currency has to balance all over the world. There has to be buyers. There has to be sellers, right? And so if you're the buyer from all over the world of all the sellers, you have to be you have to create a lot of debt, increasing debt to to fund that. And you have to be high highly paid. And everyone else in the world has to be really low paid, right? To be able to access your market.

[00:38:16]and and and you need more and more debt rising forever and ever which is and and population gets so the jobs move overseas, right? And then they get destroyed by AI um and and what's left is a very tiny group at the very top with all the control and all the money.

[00:38:37]>> How do we stop that from happening? You know, like what can I do? What can you do? What can people listening do to avoid that future?

[00:38:46]>> Yeah. So, this this is where um it's really easy. It's hard to It's hard because you've already done it. I've already done it. And and and I'm going to ask you because I say it all the time, but what does it feel like to you to to do it? Like if you said kind of you had this many units of energy and in both systems, what does it feel like in in the system you're in now versus before? Does it feel better or worse? Is it easier or harder?

[00:39:16]>> It's funny. It's it's it's I the first word that comes to mind is a relief. I would say, you know, I think it's um it it hasn't been easy. Exactly. you know, like I mean, holding Bitcoin in some ways is easy, but in some ways, you know, for a while at least it was like I sure hope I'm not crazy, you know, and everybody thinks that I'm crazy and I really I really thought I spent 10,000 hours thinking about this, but like I hope I didn't miss something, you know.

[00:39:44]Um, you know, and I've said too to people that I'm close with who are like, "Are you sure you're not like too focused on this thing? Like, is is it too high?" And and I'm a I'm a Christian and I I often think about I had a conversation with Luke Broyals where we talked a bit about this of being like, okay, well, how do you be sure Bitcoin doesn't become an idol in your life? You know, how do you how are you sure it doesn't raise to too high of a place?

[00:40:08]And it's that's also something I've thought a lot about too, you know, of like, okay, well, um I've just explained to people, I suppose, that like I don't have undying loyalty to Bitcoin. if something like terrible happened to Bitcoin, if it was like manipulated or destroyed. Now, I haven't seen a vector that concerns me enough to prepare for that eventuality. But, but also like I'm always I always have my head on a swivel, you know? I I know that I don't know everything. And so, I'm always, you know, paying attention in that way. But um yeah, I think that I have I'm fighting this fight because I believe that Bitcoin is a good thing and I have loyalty to that which is good, the spirit of the good, so to speak, you know. And so, yeah, it's it's it's a relief to know you're not propping up something that I think is evil. I think is the the primary thing. Um, also too, it it yeah, you connect with when I since I've been working with other Bitcoiners, you know, they're a unique tough group and there's like a cool camaraderie and community that develops around that where you have very reliable, very intelligent people that you can go to and yeah, that you're all like fighting on the same team with, you know, that you're always working you're working towards the same goal and and I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of beauty in it in a strange way because of that because it's like okay, we have we're on this mission. It's something that is good and yeah, you know, it helps that your economic power that power of your currency increases over time. That makes things easier as well.

[00:41:40]>> Yeah. The only difference from you and me what I would say is it doesn't feel like a fight. It just feels like I'm being.

[00:41:46]>> It just feels like I'm fully fully present and there's I don't need to fight anything else. I realize exist I realize existing system needs to fight this but I don't need to fight I just need to be >> just defend and be and help people >> just it just claim my agency on on on this and provide value period the more value you provide the better you do in a free market and that's what should ex should exist if we lived in that and that's what seems to exist in the world I live in >> I like that >> and um and uh so I don't need to fight I just need to be um the um I I understand that that if so another thing you were just ti tying on and and actually I just gave this speech in Vegas. Um you might want to link that one too.

[00:42:31]>> You got it.

[00:42:31]>> If you observed Bitcoin from credit money and you thought that was right um that the experts manage inflation, the Fed manages this, we live in a we live capitalism or socialism which is both the same thing from credit money.

[00:42:48]um and you were in inside there. Um most of the people in the world would believe that was true, you would feel and and then the output that would happen from that if you were an observer, if you were a participant in credit money is all of these things would get worse and you would keep clinging to some sort of hero inside the system that could save you and you get for and you'd be more and more fearful. you'd be more but you would you wouldn't know that you were powering the very thing that was creating the fear and so that's observer one and that's the largest part of the population 8 billion people so you can understand why why this would be really hard to absorb there's another observer who thinks in crypto and blockchain and cycles like that and they think think Bitcoin is a technology and if you thought it was a technology like like um Netflix replaces Blockbuster, um Facebook replaces MySpace. It would just it would match your pattern and then you would from that pattern you what you would really be doing is trying to get out of the system, trying to make more money as fast as you can from a system that was deteriorating and you would be wide open because of your observation of that. you'd be wide open to all of these scams and they would just propagate everywhere there and there'd be hundreds of thousands of token scams and and the people from observer one would look over at you and say, "Yeah, I told you that Bitcoin crypto it's all a scam, right?"

[00:44:23]And so and it would be very real for both of those people. Like when I say very real, it's true for your model of reality is true for you. It's true for me. It's true for all of us. We just don't know. we create it from that model of reality.

[00:44:39]Um, if if you were a little further along in Bitcoin and you only saw it as an asset without asking why do you need an asset in the first place? The reason you need an asset in the first place is money's always been broken and and and because money was broken, this the money stored in an asset isn't broken as fast.

[00:45:02]Right? So the very reason for an asset is telling you, screaming at you, you can't store your money in money.

[00:45:11]Why would that look any different in the long run if you stored your money in an asset and Bitcoin and and that that that view? It would centralize. Of course, it would centralize because you were giving it that and eventually you would be wiped out because that system was incompatible with the free market if Bitcoin stayed decentralized and secure, which is the fourth observer where you are, where I am. And if you're observing through that lens, you understand how protocols develop. You they they come in layers. Do you understand that what we're talking about would be really hard to comprehend and it would take you 10,000 hours, me 15,000 hours trying to kill this, right? To to get to a spot where I moved all my energy to it and realize it I'm not fearful at all, right? You contribute to it. You don't see you're constantly looking is there any risk? But you're part of a network that's expanding really fast like the internet was. um and you're watching it expand all over the world and you're part of something that you didn't see before. And all of those observers would both both be um observing their reality and creating an emergent reality >> that would look different to each person. And I I loved how you just described um how you think about because that's how I that's exactly how I think about all of these other people and me in it cuz cuz at first if you're think if you're thinking unlike just about everyone, you go through this phase where I must be crazy and if they believe their reality is true and it's reflecting back at them and I believe my reality is true and it's reflecting How could I know for sure? Right. It's easy because because we look at other people and we say how can they believe that? And then we don't check our own biases and everything else. So I spend so same thing that you you said I spend a lot of time thinking okay is this true or is it true for me and what would it mean and what would that what would that look like? How would that play out? um and um versus all of these other observers and how would those play out?

[00:47:27]>> How would how would you answer that question?

[00:47:30]>> How would they play out? It would be really messy. It >> be really messy over and it would take a long long time because the change isn't Bitcoin. The change is us.

[00:47:38]>> How do you once we and we and we don't realize how much agency we have. And I didn't realize how much agency I had because I gave it away to to believing I I lived in a fair system. And and I didn't want to believe it. I did I wanted to believe that I was uh voted every year from Canada. I this this side is the right side, right? Um and and didn't realize the manipulation in all the sides, right? and that nothing mattered from a system of theft that I was just a pawn and and and it and it took my breath away because he didn't want to believe it.

[00:48:18]>> I think why people have so much trouble with understanding this they've lived in this world where all they've ever seen is they've seen the government is the largest corporation with a monopoly on violence. Right? That was something I remember Elon said when I was like getting deep into setting this where I was like, "Oh, that it helps pull you out of the like there's this like, you know, Nichze talks about the death of the father as an individual and then the death of like the cultural father which is like there's someone out there who like knows how to solve everything and they're out there and they'll figure it out." And you break out of that when you realize for me I was I mentioned this political consulting I was doing to you offscreen but uh it was like it's idiots all the way up and down. They say it's turtles all the way down. It's idiots all the way to the top. Now I'm an idiot. You know I was in there working with these people in some of the highest you know high ranking levels of the government that I was like they don't know they don't know what's going on either. You know none of us really like understand all the solutions right?

[00:49:18]There's the death of that cultural father that that I experienced there.

[00:49:22]And then I think for people I'm trying to figure out like how to ask you like how to help break people out of that because I think a lot of the problem is we've lived in this control system. The government has had this monopoly on violence. They've had the monopoly on currency. They we've been in it for about a hundred years. Let's say you know 1913. We could argue maybe 1945 or whatever Brettton Woods agreement local.

[00:49:43]>> It goes back further than that because it goes back further than that. It goes back to central Central Banking of London. Yeah.

[00:49:50]>> So, so where did the where did the war machine come from for City of London or British Empire to to win?

[00:49:58]>> Extract more from their people to put other people in slavery. So, create a central bank underneath it.

[00:50:04]>> Skim money, skim money, skim money, go to war to extract it from uh from other people. And it worked. And and so and and that's propagated all over the world. But we don't understand that all of our history books are written by the winners.

[00:50:18]>> And it's so hard to It's been like that for all of history, right? This is something that's that humanity hasn't seen before, which is why it's so hard to rip >> rip remove help get like tear that veil from people's eyes. It's it almost seems like this you have to step outside it, you know? You have to like get above it and look at it >> from far enough away and people stay inside the bubble so they can't see it.

[00:50:41]you know, they see I need my guy to win Republican, Democrat for you in Canada.

[00:50:46]It's it and it's all within that system and it's so hard to get people to step outside and view it.

[00:50:54]>> So, that's that's why it's going to be a chaotic change. It's going to be really chaotic because people are going to hang on.

[00:51:00]>> It's individually each of us and we don't we don't want to admit that our agency in it. We think it's somebody else and it's us. And so that that that cuts that really cuts into and and and when when something hits your identity like that, you want to push back. You want to scream. You want to you want to block it and say that that that cannot be true, right? That guy is an idiot.

[00:51:25]That guy the ad hominemm attacks everything and and and the works there because it's hit something in you. So the change isn't all of those people.

[00:51:37]The change is us.

[00:51:39]>> Um and when you see that yourself and so it's not for each of if you take this string what you're talking about through history Buckminister Fuller Henry Ford um Nicola Tesla um going back all Mises um going back all throughout time in fact all of the great religions no none of the religions had usery or death as part of them.

[00:52:04]um because of the same thing all the way through time. It's the same theme. But what does that also say? That that we're easily corruptible because if we've never lived in a system that is so obvious that free market's an infinite game.

[00:52:21]Um we you could explain the free you could explain the entire economic landscape to a 5-year-old. We compete to provide more value to to other people and we win more when we provide value and and the entire society wins and then and then when that person wins their margin is somebody else's opportunity to create more value. Prices keep falling.

[00:52:42]So the entire thing you could So so that's all of economics entirely meaning all of the economics dogma and nonsense and and and and institutional corruption that people believe in their education system and everything else from the other system that they have to go through and and unwind their institutional knowledge from that other system. That would that would that would make my first statement really hard to believe.

[00:53:14]>> I wonder if this is connected at all.

[00:53:16]Your you know trying to like unwind from the system. Your venture fund I believe it's called is called ego death capital.

[00:53:25]>> I'm curious about like the origin of that name because it feels connected right that like stepping outside of the system viewing it from you know >> Yeah.

[00:53:33]It is, but it is, but it's actually fair to say that I didn't even come up with a name.

[00:53:39]>> Okay.

[00:53:39]>> So, my partners, but my partners came up with the name and and and and it just landed. It seemed to fit, right? The because venture capital um or any capital shouldn't look like venture capital does today. It should look like serving others and it should provide value only when you win and serve others instead of when you win and create a monopoly to extract from others. Mhm.

[00:54:03]>> Because then it >> and and so when you think about capital in a Bitcoin standard, when you think about how to the the rate of return of Bitcoin underlying everything else, I can just hold Bitcoin and do nothing and and and enjoy the benefits of the free market for all people moving forever.

[00:54:24]Um and I could just tune out.

[00:54:27]But so but that rate of return even against the existing system it's actually probably a lot higher if you realize that prices should be falling right and what what's happening and and the misallocation of capital which creates impairments that you don't see right away but then just flash and go to zero. So, but if you if you said what's the real rate of return, call it 45%, 40% IRRa in Bitcoin, right? Um, then how could you increase your rate of return and the only way you could increase your rate at a return is that's my hurdle rate for any investment?

[00:55:02]That is my that is my risk-free rate of return because if I can't beat that return, then I'll just hold Bitcoin.

[00:55:09]>> Do you think that return is so high? No, keep going. Keep going. So now how do you now how do you beat it?

[00:55:14]>> Yeah, >> you beat it by delivering value on top of Bitcoin and having those companies that are delivering value acrew more Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

[00:55:23]>> So So it's the exact same economic calculation as you would give in in the existing fiat world. And people think the risk-free rate is the long bond rate call it 4.4% today.

[00:55:36]But they don't realize that bond has all of the risk of the of it failing and embedded into it. Not just failing, but the inflation rate that is way higher than than what it's stated at. It has to go higher otherwise it fails spectacularly. So that's not a true risk-free rate.

[00:55:54]>> It's a return risk as Sailor put it in his keynote last week.

[00:55:59]>> Yeah. And so they're trying to make rate a return on top of that. M >> and all of the returns on top of that are under just holding Bitcoin.

[00:56:09]>> Mhm. And they for any one time like you can invest in Nvidia, you can invest in Google and you could you for a short term you could see a massive return but if that return is based on we need to massively print more money then how stable is that return on a constant basis right and you can see it won't be >> um what was I had like five questions that popped into my head when you were saying that that the I wonder if the let's say that the Bitcoin return is 40% annual let's say for now. I wonder if that is and then we we're also saying okay so you have you'll get four and a half percent or whatever on your treasuries which is saying this is returnfree risk because you have the risk of the entire system collapsing which if you run the numbers is guaranteed essentially I mean if you look >> guarant guaranteed it has to yeah it's it's un the instability in the system that you're measuring from is growing every day >> and you have no idea that you're measuring from the instability And you're making gambling decisions.

[00:57:16]Everybody's forced to gamble with their money on where can I make a higher rate of return. And they're gambling more and more and more and centralizing more and more out of that same risk. Happens in every country that this happens to. And they and and people just get wiped out.

[00:57:28]>> And it's happened in every country ever that's had a fiat currency. But >> it always looks like, >> right. Right.

[00:57:33]>> Always looks like this.

[00:57:34]>> Right.

[00:57:35]>> Yeah. Yeah, it's important for people to realize too that it's like, okay, just because you've seen for your entire lifetime, it's been this certain way. If you like look throughout history, I mean, fiat currencies have a lifespan of 80 to 100 years typically, and we're at 88 years from the Bretton Woods agreement or something. So, in some ways, people are like, "That's shocking.

[00:57:52]That can never happen. Maybe it could happen." If you take another frame, if you zoom out, it's like, "No, no, no.

[00:57:57]It's for sure going to happen." Then, not just the historical perspective, too. You look at the numbers, you do the math, you look at the interest on our debt, all these sort of things. what's what this entire system is based off of and you realize no no no this is mathematically guaranteed at this point >> and and reme remember the Bretonwoods agreement failed in 1971 it didn't fail now >> right >> right and and then it got converted to a petrod dollar system that that the other side of that petrod dollar system was what's happening in the middle middle east the instability in the in the middle east um and you just and and um and they had to essentially they needed to make oil scarce in 70s to expand that market to flood the US dollar into to be able to have a new regime and then that new regime is failing now right so so so and here's here's why I think when we use historical precedents for 80 80 to 100 years we're using historical precedents without that that technology moved slower So the currency would fail slower. M >> now technology is moving f so the it's exposing what the free market has always been at a faster rate which is exposing the currency system is at a faster rate and those cycles will speed up and speed up and speed up and and it's bound to be very chaotic uh to if it's um to to if you're measuring from that system that's that's building more and more in instability How fast do you think it could happen?

[00:59:40]You know, this is kind of it's always a tough question to ask, but like we're seeing the acceleration of this. A lot of the bottleneck now is simply understanding, right? It's simply more and more people understanding what's going on and making the adoption. We're here having a conversation. There's lots of people on the internet doing Bitcoin evangelism, so to speak. These things often go at exponential rates. Like, what sort of time frame from your research do you feel like you expect these things to take place over? Yeah, I can I can never say that. In fact, so I don't think this is going to happen fast in at least in the way people are. Now, Bitcoin, if measured in pieces of paper, could be a million dollars, $10 million, and that could be considered fast. But that's not the finality of this. The finality and because what would that do?

[01:00:25]It would reset the piece of paper and the thing would build again.

[01:00:30]And so and and most people will measure in the piece of paper and a lot of people will sell their Bitcoin back to the piece of paper through that cycle.

[01:00:36]So this is going to happen over and over and over again as as as um where does yield come from?

[01:00:46]>> Depends on the product I suppose.

[01:00:49]>> But again so where does yield come from?

[01:00:50]From the interest rate it comes from debt that has to grow exponentially on top of an asset.

[01:00:56]>> Right. Right. Right. Right.

[01:00:57]>> Right. Right.

[01:00:58]So where does yield come from in uh if you're achieving yield on Bitcoin, right? Comes from debt growing exponentially on top of Bitcoin. More and more pieces of paper built paper Bitcoin being built on top of Bitcoin and you think you're winning in a centralizing system. So people are going to get wiped out on and I'm not it's going to be some people make a lot of money and then get wiped out. It'll it'll people offer higher and higher interest rates or low um it'll be chasing back and forth, but lots of people are going to do that and get wiped out and not go stay in self custody because they're going to essentially not be part of the protocol. They're going to give up their access to not your keys, not your coins. They're going to give up in service of their short-term win on debt, right?

[01:01:47]>> Which will centralize. And so these fights are going to happen for a long time as as as people make mistakes and mistakes and mistakes going through this hard to understand protocol uh um emerging um through that and and so it's it's it's worth spending a lot of time.

[01:02:06]It's worth spending a lot of time understanding what's going the next steps, what can happen, what would happen out of either of these systems.

[01:02:13]What would be why would we be easily we like think about banks we the beautiful banks like institutions to protect our money. We put our money in and our money is stolen. Right? So the entire facade of the entire thing that makes us believe it's safe is is a game that that it steals our money, lends money into existence, right? And where does it where where does all of this come from? Where does all the facade come from? It comes from us. And so so because these things are so hard to gro and everything else and because they're hard on on our mind, um there we um we don't want to accept them. And and that means that means um this is going to you ask a a question that no one can answer although everybody says to answer it tries to answer and I used to term it all the time which snowflake causes the avalanche >> and in retrospect you can see the snowflake that caus a avalanche going going into the you have no idea you just know instability is building and building and building and it could build for a long long time and and and and and people would people watching it build.

[01:03:33]Oh, it's safe. It's okay. It'll never happen.

[01:03:37]The instability Oh, the instability builds.

[01:03:40]>> So, there's no there's no way to call this timing.

[01:03:44]>> Are you are you familiar with Lowry's soft war thesis? And in that >> Yeah. Um, in fact, I was one of the first to to see it and I asked him to take it off LinkedIn to to to make uh broaden it. So, I actually early on I asked him to go on to Twitter to uh to broaden it.

[01:04:04]>> Okay. So, before he was out like talking about it essentially on podcast and stuff like that. Okay.

[01:04:10]>> It was a it was a diagram that he put on to a diagram on paper.

[01:04:16]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:04:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Right.

[01:04:18]Right. that I think that's a great little napkin scratch. That one's gonna that might show up in some history books, I think.

[01:04:25]>> Yeah.

[01:04:26]>> How do you think about the role that nation states will play in this? Right.

[01:04:32]So, we have these centralizing forces.

[01:04:34]We see, you know, strategies bought a bunch of Bitcoin, of course. Um, we see all these other players accumulating Bitcoin. We see nations accumulating Bitcoin via seizure essentially. Um I think you know post this post the shift to the new world let's say let's make the assumption that bitcoin becomes the global reserve currency like how do you see the nature of nation states changing under that I think a lot about Lowry's thesis and that frame hash forces you know if if >> yeah so so that's one thing I didn't agree with Lowry at all on hashforce and by the way so so and Same for me too.

[01:05:17]People agree with some things, not agree with others, but but Larry made the space better by adding additional knowledge and and in hash force, I think he got it totally wrong.

[01:05:27]>> And and why he got it totally wrong is he's measuring that through something that's not not a free market, thinking you can control a system.

[01:05:36]>> And so I'm on the board of Core Scientific, one of the largest Bitcoin miners now, hyperscalers. Um, and what happens in Bitcoin mining is it's constantly chasing lowerc cost energy all around the world.

[01:05:50]And you, the miners don't control it.

[01:05:52]They're just economic actors and the nodes control it.

[01:05:57]>> So, and and so because your node, the minor, if they don't agree to the rules of your node, you reject their their uh their their block.

[01:06:06]and and so th those are economic actors chasing lowerc cost energy and it can't centralize in a free market because what ends up happening is miners essentially let's let's use the US right now and if you're mining at 5 cents a kilowatt hour and some are mining at higher you're hemorrhaging money hemorrhaging money you're losing on every on every bitcoin you're you're you're mining with the capital costs and interest costs and everything else and so so if you have giant facility that's hemorrhaging money. You close the facility, raise more debt, right? But eventually it catches it catches up to you or you convert to sell that energy to somebody who will pay more like a like high performance compute.

[01:06:53]>> Mhm.

[01:06:54]and that that facility moves somewhere else where you have two cent energy and three- cent energy and and it and it distributes all around the world. So, so there's a there's Jason's that's one thing that I think Jason got wrong in that book about uh hash rate because you could control what goes into the blocks but you can't the nodes the nodes determine right who who has this and then the economic the free market determines who is going to risk capital infrastructure everything else to make a return on the bitcoin and that distributes further and uh further further. So, by the way, the same thing in this core knots debate and the and and the and the core uh and the core group saying we have to the centralizing mining is important. We have to stop them and we have to stop because they're driving inscriptions out of band or they're driving into the blockchain out of band. The fee market on Bitcoin is immaterial.

[01:08:00]>> Mhm.

[01:08:01]most of the things are moving into lightning and fedment and and and transactions and the bulk of the generation of the capital of the return is actually winning the the return on the block.

[01:08:14]So if you had high energy cost and you and you were trying to subsidize your high energy cost by getting more fees and you were trying to out of ban stuff, it would work for a little while, but what it would do is lock you into your high energy cost.

[01:08:30]while the market moved on and you drive yourself off a cliff.

[01:08:35]So the free market completely fixes that without changing core to say let's solve this a different way to stop mining centralization.

[01:08:46]>> I remember I I just took the time I just checked the time by the way and I'm I'm this has flown by. I've been this is so interesting. There's there's a couple questions I guess I'd like to get to.

[01:08:58]The one related to this is that in chapter five of your book I think was about AI. Chapter six of your book was about energy and then >> um you talked about distributed solar generation, solar power generation and how these three things would play together. So I guess considering that frame a little bit, what do you think the mining like mining looks like post that world?

[01:09:26]Right. So it's get the cost of of your energy needs to drop needs to drop needs to drop with each having we'll have transaction fees we'll subsidize it at that point in time but but >> so so even forget even forget transactions and fees okay because one bit one one bitcoin in 2140 the amount or 10 sats in 2140 the amount of real productivity gain that that is is a like the the the reward in 20 2140 is the same as now.

[01:09:56]>> Okay.

[01:09:57]>> If that makes sense. So what people are measuring that and they think it's falling because they're measuring in fiat currency.

[01:10:03]>> Mhm.

[01:10:04]>> Right. And and so energy.

[01:10:08]>> Exactly. And so what's so what you're find what you're finding is you don't now eventually there will be a tiny little bit of a fraction of a fee market but that'll probably be um and that'll and at that time we would never go back to this time and cheat money. Can you imagine the productivity gains 8 billion people in service of 8 billion people and what the world would look like and then making a decision to go back to this dystopian hell hole. Right. It's just it wouldn't it it's it's so so so what and what Bitcoin does in in kind of inside that in inside that time it's constantly uh searching for lowerc cost energy. So I made if there was one thing in my book that I would have changed I would have changed I would have been I would have added to the energy chapter and I would have added nuclear to the energy chap chapter. Mhm.

[01:11:06]>> Um because because that was a a technology that what that essentially I think was stopped or slowed down to support a petrod dollar system. So you didn't have a free market that exposed and what energy could look like today if you had if you had what that would look like and the abundance of energy. But even what I talked about in solar in happening right now I'm an investor in gridless in Africa um and and gridless is now uh mining Bitcoin with solar cheaper than they are on Run of River. It's a it's it it's move it's because because the price has fallen so much on solar pan panels that it's literally almost free in in in mining mining Bitcoin. And so it's a that's that's that's happening right now. Mhm.

[01:11:58]>> And you set them up and that's it. It's it's the energy is coming in forever.

[01:12:04]>> Exactly. So then that would distribute further and further and further mining, right? And then then other companies, companies we've invested in um are placing mining and heat, right, to get to together. And now you can have a heater in your home and you're making money or or or lowering your heating costs because you have a smart heater rather than a dumb heater.

[01:12:29]And and all these things further and further decentralize. Essentially you have a free market finding the best value all over the world chasing lowerc cost abundant energy, stranded energy, abundant energy, chasing feeding it back into heating systems. Because if you do that better than other people, you make more money.

[01:12:49]>> Mhm. Mhm. And it incentivize, you know, Bitcoin mining gridless is the perfect example. It it gives the monetary incentive to develop the energy infrastructure that then say it does not become profitable or I guess it's it's a matter of frame I suppose because profitability it's it's an opportunity cost, right? It's like you could be mining Bitcoin or you have this new application for the energy. You built out energy infrastructure for 12 years.

[01:13:16]The best way to spend that energy is to mine Bitcoin. But at some point in time, that infrastructure is there like gridless like you guys have um in Africa.

[01:13:25]>> Yeah. Or or say what's happening in core scientific. You develop the energy that was uh that was mostly stranded. It was lowcost energy at the time and they were making a lot of money on Bitcoin mining.

[01:13:36]It becomes the the frontier energy to drive energy. Now you own the energy.

[01:13:42]and a new buyer of energy comes that pays more than Bitcoin.

[01:13:46]>> That's what that's all that's all AI is.

[01:13:50]>> Right.

[01:13:50]>> Today, >> right. Right. Yeah. And all you got to do is swap out the chips essentially and the rest of the infrastructure is there.

[01:13:56]>> It's not all you have to do. It's a lot of work, but it's >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sure.

[01:14:01]>> Um All right. Yeah, we just have a few more minutes. I I guess I'm gonna have to skip the personal cues. Perhaps we'll uh grab a beer at another conference at some point in time or something like that and get to that. Awesome.

[01:14:12]>> Um, one thing I've been really curious about actually is I know that you're someone who is uh, you know, you're largely driven by the ethics and morality of, you know, of of pushing this revolution, so to speak.

[01:14:30]What What is the basis for like your ethical or moral frame? I'm curious.

[01:14:34]It's not something I've ever heard you talk about really, but like where does that Yeah. what is the foundation or the framework that is the origin of that?

[01:14:44]>> Um you'll see it in my speech in uh in Vegas. Um where what people don't know in that is is is actually how close how emotional I got in or was getting in even delivering it.

[01:14:59]And what I how I see myself in the world is a is a is somebody who is changed changing changing changing ch changing as a sum of all of the people who have impacted me.

[01:15:14]And so I mean that in a very real way.

[01:15:17]Even if they don't feel like that to me and I could never thank them all, I can I can feel the impact on my thinking, my mental models from all of these people that it wouldn't look like that. So you're standing on the shoulders of giants.

[01:15:32]It could include my parents, my brothers, friends, family, and any person I want to spend any time with or books I read. Sometimes it's garbage.

[01:15:41]You throw it out. Sometimes sometimes you see what somebody does that is exactly the opposite of what you do and you why do they do it like that? That that and it but it hones yourself. So all I see myself as very connected through time in all of these the these different people in in service of doing that uh doing that that that forward and my time is the most valuable this in fact I said it on the speed right now your background that went through the same thing for your mental models and all of the people that you know that you the stories you tell yourself right your identity and every and how they've formed and then how they change over time. You're not just the same person forever. You're sum of all of this these other things and your background and my background just collided in the the actual only moment for each of us that matters right now because we can't do anything. The future doesn't exist yet. The past is already gone. It only put us here and this is the only moment that matters. So when I think about my moments, when I think about my time, I want to spend it with people that the moment matters.

[01:16:55]>> Um fully present where the mo moment matters. And and that was a um and it's a recognition, I think, for for me too is is I didn't always have it right. I might not have it right today. Right. I it's it's an evolution. and and and so I'm just I'm almost in awe that I get to live in this timeline in in in in gratitude in what I get to do surrounded by all all of this being able to do what I get to do. So I um that include that in is in my family that's in my friends that's that's universal everywhere and it's not a so your question is uh how did it come to this I don't know came from but it's it wasn't just me >> following the the influences of everybody around you and >> yeah and the curiosity what works what doesn't work why is what what what I found probably if it was helpful to uh to to your audience. What I found for me is the things that I would take credit for all of the good things in my life and as soon as something was was a negative I would just assign blame.

[01:18:11]>> It had to be somebody else. And I and I found that fascinating in me that I realized it so it ha it all has to be me. So I I used the every time I wanted to to ex to to to turn blame, I had to accept. And that allowed me to find some deeper things kind of that that I didn't have modeled correctly that unlocked unlocked just an easier path.

[01:18:39]>> Mhm.

[01:18:41]you've uh relating to the blame thing.

[01:18:44]I've heard you wrap up a talk or two perhaps with it's one of my favorite things I've ever heard you said that I remember it hit me the first time you said it was there is no they there's only we or there's there's no them there's only us.

[01:18:58]>> I guess to wrap this up here what does that mean to you? Why is it important?

[01:19:02]And you know how >> it's what I just it's what I just explained. We are all completely connected. Think about your think about the life and think about some people that you can't even thank that have impacted your life. Think about uh Michael Faraday who came up with an insight right in that speech in Madiraa, right? You you don't most people don't even know he he exists, right? And how he came to this idea of electromagnetism and what that means for electricity and everything else. maybe that would have been found 20 years later, 10 years later, 100 years later, but all of these people that we don't even realize are part of our story. um and uh and and our way of life uh life today. I um it's instead of thinking about the negative of all the bad things and the fear of what all those other people are doing and everything else, if you stay in the gratitude of what it actually looks like and what you can control and and what you can do every day, it's uh um in the the capability you have, it's it just it mirrors back. It's just at least that's what I found. And and that there is no they and there's only we is a is a quick way to say how connected we all are, how we all matter.

[01:20:19]>> Mhm.

[01:20:22]That makes sense.

[01:20:24]Jeff, thanks so much for coming. I really No problem. This was great.

[01:20:27]>> Yeah, I could I could talk for many more hours. We'll have to hopefully sometime in the near future we'll get to continue the conversation. Um, yeah. I just I just want to say too like you're this is the third conversation we're doing for the series and you were at the top of my list, one of the top guys that I wanted to talk to. So, I just I just really appreciate you coming on and sharing. I think there's just a ton of value to the way you share about what Bitcoin is and the impact that it can have for humanity. I think a lot of people will probably, you know, a lot of people come for number go up. A lot of people come because they want to build wealth and you see that in their approaches to how they're handling I don't know what they're working on I suppose but I think that your perspective on it is what the masses need to understand. I think it's probably the the most important piece of it.

[01:21:18]>> Yeah. And and it would feel really chaotic if most people were early in this journey going across and measuring in number go off. There would be far more people measuring in number go up than measuring in protocol. It would just it would have to look like that that that feeling and and that's why they they it just is. It's not good or bad. It's just has to look like this as this emerge as this emerges. And so when I meet people like you taking your time creating a podcast to touch more people and doing the very same thing and and you you'll never know if the one person you uh touched then uh then turns around and touches two billion. You'll never know it was you which is the most beautiful thing ever.

[01:22:06]>> Speaks to the interconnectedness of it all. Yeah. Well thank you so much sir.

[01:22:11]Really appreciate it. Um, how can people connect with you? Uh, where's the best place to find you to learn more?

[01:22:18]>> Just on Nostra now. Um, and uh, but uh, the it if if you're looking for me on social media, go to my website first because uh, and look at my nost on my uh, on my website because there's just too many scammers uh, out there trying I will never ask you for money. Um, uh, so jeeoffrey booth.com.

[01:22:41]>> Okay. Right on. Thank you so much, sir.

[01:22:44]Really appreciate it. Talk to you soon.

[01:22:45]>> Thank you.