If France Really Want To Transform Kenya, Why Is West Africa Still Struggling? ~ Pigbin Odimwengu

本站添加: 2026-05-12

[00:00:02]Yes indeed. Every moment counts and every moment has got a heartbeat. My name is Malamovi. This is the generation report. A very good evening to you. In studio we do have Hanifa Adan and we have our guest for this hour Pigmanu.

[00:00:19]Um he's a former presidential aspir but he's still a presidential um of the progress panu.

[00:00:28]A very good morning to you and welcome to radio. Good evening. Hey, let me let me ask you to use this microphone. Um, once again, good evening. Yeah, good evening. And good evening.

[00:00:51]>> Is that your real name?

[00:00:52]>> Yeah, it is.

[00:00:53]>> Oh, that's a unique name.

[00:00:54]>> What? Pigin. His name Pig Beano.

[00:00:58]>> No, it is pigeon pigu.

[00:01:01]>> Oh, it's not so pig.

[00:01:04]>> Uh the same way Wednesday.

[00:01:14]Yeah. You see, let's meet on Wednesday.

[00:01:18]Wednesday.

[00:01:21]Uh um Pinasana >> um let me just start by asking how your weekend was. I hope everything is fine.

[00:01:28]Um and you have been okay since the last time we met or has anything changed?

[00:01:33]>> No, every every day we try to make some progress. You see the country is moving and we also have to make some steps moving forward >> but we are doing our best to be here and to be there anytime we needed.

[00:01:44]>> Yeah.

[00:01:44]>> Yes.

[00:01:48]>> Have you seen how how the traffic is heavy in Nairobi? Yeah, I I was >> we are hosting some 40some dignitaries >> and then a few other thousands of very important people VIPs if I may call them president roadong road expressway expressway um for some intermittent intermittent periods of time because of uh the very many VIPs that were just crisscrossing this country of ours.

[00:02:21]Now it's very interesting that one president from Europe then brings together over 30 something soal president in Africa >> is a waste of time waste of resources and it's not proper for the continent >> cuz I've not heard of Kenya Europe summit where presidents of Europe will sit together to meet President R >> but we hear France Africa summit China Africa summit >> so it's very important that these people must realize that even the outside world the Europe and China the rest don't them effective as individuals and they must come together as school children so that they could be addressed from one podium.

[00:02:56]You see >> and that makes it very ineffective for us as a continent to continue sustaining these so-al 50s something heads of states who are then paraded like children's when the foreign heads of state come together and then they waste our time with too much of traffic jam all over up and down. It's not making sense.

[00:03:12]>> You know um I I I I would want to agree with you but let me let me let me let me also bring in a different perspective.

[00:03:19]It's not necessarily disagreeing, but if you were to have President Trump here and then you have President Xiinping of China here, then you have the prime minister of Japan here and then to let's throw in President Mcron and then we throw in the UK uh prime minister for example. Bro, the headache you will have here in terms of security alone in just any security forget even just security. Number two, where these guys are going to stay. Number three, um our roads are not even enough. We do not this these roads of us can cannot handle their motor kids alone. So as much as I agree with you the fact that sometimes African presidents can be bundled in one there's even a time whose b were they attending and then they were put in one school bus.

[00:04:22]>> Is it a queen or or whatever?

[00:04:23]>> It was the queen. Thank you for reminding me. It was the queen of >> that is how they treat um the the people they serve back home like how they deserve. I loved it.

[00:04:38]>> However, they inconvenience us here and then trying to find special treatment outside.

[00:04:46]I loved it. And then what it will take for for you to coordinate security, my friend, it will just be a nightmare for me.

[00:05:05]>> Yeah. So um as much as I would want to see one day us hosting them and and that day will come. But I've seen world leaders going to a place like um was it the barrier of there's a pope who was bar I don't know if it's John Paul II or pope Francis or one of the other many very many popes it could have been Pope Benedict as well I saw heads of states from kings even king if I'm not wrong that time it was So it's possible to actually have them in one place. But in Africa, >> no, basically what I was talking about is that if we could have one president for the African continent, for example, we could not be having all these 34 whatever is having us up and down here with Jam.

[00:05:54]>> So basically will be one president meeting another one president.

[00:05:58]>> But when you see we have all these 34 running up and down. And I will tell you I think we have all agreed that >> sometimes even they don't see it worth enough to meet one president >> cuz then our countries are not even any valuable to their their to their attention.

[00:06:11]>> Of course Macron cannot maybe come for a summit to meet Kenya summit alone >> cuz Kenya is not even valuable to what I think. So what we have to realize is that as much as we want to retain our so-called presidencies so many titles we have >> the global community do not see as ineffective as as an individual state.

[00:06:30]Do you know Macron was here in 2018?

[00:06:32]>> Yeah that was a visitation.

[00:06:33]>> Yeah. Yeah. So there are times when the president can just come to one country but also they capitalize when they come to Africa they visit several countries.

[00:06:41]So, Africa depending on what he was hoping to achieve in in his Africa tour like they call it.

[00:06:57]>> But what I'm trying to talk about is in terms of inconveniency and ineffectiveness of so-called 54 states of among them.

[00:07:04]>> Yeah. Cuz basically if we could have one powerful president of Africa then even China could listen to that one president going and sitting down or US or Macron or anybody else >> instead of the summit >> instead of the whole 57. You see it's very ineffective for 57 states in call 54 or 55 states in Africa >> trying to say that they have an interest they're pushing >> basically we the same people across is maybe the colors might be different a bit in terms of skin tone but we are the same people you see and you realize even our economy is almost close to this.

[00:07:34]agriculture, minerals. So what you exploitation like you see now Kenya is trying to sign their own deals of their own who is having more advantage is France will sign deals with over 30 something presence >> while Kenya will only have those 17 deals China will come out of this summit with over France will come out of this summit with over 300 deals >> that's very valuable to them >> but will be getting 11 or 10 or five deals you see so there there's a way we need to start shifting this of because I think uh it's it's been long time we've been retaining those 50 whatever we call them >> but I think we need to start thinking whether it's necessary and I think that's why there was a need for AU >> I realized that they were admitting AU in UN security council as an AU >> rather than states >> and that's why we need to go Africa need to be treated from one approach if you have to approach France or whatever we approaching even if you have so-al states but let's go under one umbrella so let's a represent us in that way that will be easier for us even to negotiate rather than calling in Switzerland to go negotiate with France. What do Switzerland get out of France? Esotini basically France will benefit more than what esot can benefit from France. So those are a few things that we are still having in the continent. We still need to retain them but I think the even agenda AU agenda 2063 looks forward maybe when we can do away with all the states and I think the ESOs is trying to run away on how can we have at least one state.

[00:08:56]>> If if if and maybe Kenya is a bad example but let me just use it anyway. If we cannot even agree on on on how we shall treat our own tribes, we we we do not agree council of governors and those are the small presidents that we have within within this country of ours Kenya. If that is an issue of just how even to share resources, accountability issues, you know, we might and let me just take an example. I this is not necessarily a perfect one but let's assume Tanzania is more accountable than Kenya >> assume >> let's assume yeah I'm not in the air but let's for the sake of this argument let's assume Tanzania is a more credible um partner to deal with now when we are all of us as this African uh state how are we going to negotiate and then the people of Tanzania feel okay I think we are making a very good deal for our continent.

[00:10:06]Do you know that's the also the where we get wrong in terms of how we approach the unification of Africa.

[00:10:12]>> We really want to unite Africa. We want to unite Africa on the basis of this colonial states.

[00:10:17]>> Yeah.

[00:10:17]>> Cuz Tanzania never existed. There's no tribe called Tanzania. There's no tribe called Kenya or the >> So according to you, we delete those borders completely.

[00:10:24]>> Yeah. Basically, we cannot define us that you're uniting on the same same borders that we impose on us. There's nothing running away from you. If you really have to unite the continent of Africa, we rather even go to the nations. I know we are so many >> what they call nations in Europe, they call in Africa tribes.

[00:10:38]>> Basically, they are nations.

[00:10:39]>> If you go to German, as much as they're speaking one language, they are German nation.

[00:10:44]>> They are French nation.

[00:10:46]>> But in Africa, how many nations? How many nations do you have? We have the Kikuyu nation, the nations. If you calculate all of them, there are around 3,400 to 3,500 in the entire continent.

[00:10:57]Yeah, >> those are nations you see.

[00:10:59]>> But then the states we are having today, states found nations existing.

[00:11:04]>> States were convenency of colonialism and those their masters who created them.

[00:11:09]>> And if you are running away to unite, you cannot unite in the same line of states. That's why it's very important what some of us are pushing is the United Nations of Africa. So unite the nations of Africa. Don't unite the colonial borders of Africa. the colonial borders for exampu nation there's whatever nations we have if you approach it in that way then you know that the power for negotiation is actually upon the nations rather than upon the new colonial states cuz as you're saying Kenyans you cannot agree cuz even when you call a boundary Kenya is a boundary of so many other people in the other side other side other side.

[00:11:51]Look for example talking about the body of Somali there are Somali brothers in the other side they're here >> so when you're talking of Kenya and they are also in the other side you're telling them they're not Kenyans what are you trying to tell them there were before Kenya came so so the question is the question is the Somali community existed before the so-called Kenya came so when you tell Somali to go back to Somali just tell Kenya to go back where it came from >> cuz Kenya formed Somali is here.

[00:12:21]>> Kenya found ether you call them Kikuyos here >> and you cannot tell them they're not Kenyans.

[00:12:26]>> Yes, they are not Kenyans because the creation Kenya is not original from them.

[00:12:32]>> Help me understand this then how >> help me understand the politics of a of of a united Africa because at one point we will need a leader.

[00:12:40]>> That's true.

[00:12:41]>> We will need a whatever you want to call him president, prime minister, whatever we decide to call this person. Yeah. How are we going to choose to call how many nations?

[00:12:50]500 or 3,400.

[00:12:52]>> Okay. So, let's even go with 3,000. How do we decide >> now the nation?

[00:12:57]>> Yeah. to add on the question like what is the state of panafricanism currently considering what is going on in South Africa where they're coming at other Africans and MMA standing firmly and telling them stop attacking your African brothers and entertaining quoting he what he said and um entertaining uh the white people in South Africa. So what exactly is the state of panafricanism and can you say that dream of uniting the nation is possible?

[00:13:28]>> I think uh uh uh going back to what you're saying then I'll come to our question.

[00:13:32]>> Mhm.

[00:13:33]>> We are having words, 1450 words in Kenya >> and we still vote one president.

[00:13:39]>> Yeah.

[00:13:39]>> How is it possible?

[00:13:41]>> It is.

[00:13:41]>> Now let's use that cuz what you're using as the lowest level of administration but over,450 and then vote one president. M >> if you to go voting in terms of nations cuz you see a leader must represent their nation.

[00:13:54]>> M >> when you talk about any geographical locality that is there's a leader for maybe let's say for example Garisa the majority of people were there are Somalis >> so that leader represent a nation just that the nation has been partitioned into a territory. M >> so when you call Giza county did not exist before the Somalis were there >> it came in as a name so at the end of the day it's still very possible that leaders and nations will vote to have leaders >> those 3,000 can vote for example do you know how many positions you have in the entire continent if you talk of leadership alone 3,500 nations cannot vote to agree on a leader but we have over the last time I check it was over 12,000 members of parliament in the entire continent over 12,000 members of continent local assembly you have over 100 and something thousands >> representing the same Africa but if you are 12 nations it will only be one leader representing a nation to the entire continent so for example whether you treat that nation as a constituency cuz of course a constituency must be of a people >> so when you treat that nation as a constituency that will be Somali constituency law constituency if you bring that together in the entire continent you'll be having 3,500 MPs rather than 12,000 MPs and these MPs draw the mandate directly from the people they represent as a nation. It's very easier for that level for nations to agree on what they want. But we now bring people together. The problem you're having now in counties for example look for example a county like maybe you go to a county like embu the embu people you have them people you have the people >> then what is going on in the counties is still the tyranny of numbers cuz then the community that the majority in that county will always be governor or want to be senator >> you see but if you have that nation represented directly then there will not be issues of community inside >> cuz you see we have 40 I don't know if there are 43 or 44 communities you have here >> either you call tribes there are 44 we have 47 counties but there are counties that have two look for example Migori they are kuras and they are l >> when do you think uh in in migori a governor will be a kouya if the the voting will be in terms of the tyrann of the entire constituency so that's a big problem so it's even very easier to treat and look at Africa as nations and have representative directly from the nations rather than those nations >> I I feel like in Africa as you continue explaining I think in a Africa is very unique we're not even like Um, Latin America for example, you see Latin America, it's either you guys are speaking Spanish or you're speaking Portuguese and maybe so you find that then they're united by one language, one tribe. Uh, if you go to America, as much as immigrants brought in all these other languages, you'll find that they it's it's one general country where they speak one language and the official language there is English. Of course, they'll have a few places where they insist you have to do translations in French, you have to do translations in maybe Spanish because of of the populations that are there.

[00:16:51]And then, of course, there's the native Americans, right? Then when you go to a place like Europe, Germans, Germans, too. Countries, yes, like Belgium, you'll find there's a part that is speaking French, another one is speaking Dutch, but you'll find they have those two tribes, if I may call them, or those two nations, if I may call them, right? Uh, and a last one last example. um a place like I think it's the Netherlands where they also have one side speaking German and another one speaking Dutch but as itenders idea three tribes are four because maybe interages and then one tribe just emerges from somewhere so it is easier in places like Europe to just say that we are one people but in Africa Kenya to 44 tribes Tanzania I think there are like 140 Nigeria there are god knows how many you tell No, no, I I get what you're saying, but at the end of the day, even in so many committees you're having today, >> yes, >> still in the parliament, they do not speak. They speak one English or one, which is not any original tribe.

[00:17:52]>> So, the communication of all these makabil to Konazo, they'll still be speaking and and past policies in parliament, but with not or with notya.

[00:18:01]So, it's very easy to find a unifying language. But the most important thing is that a people a representative of Somali community will speak to their people in the language they know and they'll understand that they represent.

[00:18:11]So it would be very hard for this leader to represent a community when they come at a censic among >> now. So that's the issue. But you see when you talk about the South African issue that I want to talk about >> it's still the problem of this new >> are you saying that in the in the county assemblies they don't communicate in the local languages >> it's very hard >> like in county they don't transact business in the county assembly in kamba >> does that really happen that in kamba I don't think I think it's the right way you see I will advocate for that >> I will advocate that where there's one community in a county speak their language >> police is our pass for who >> the community >> yes >> so why should we speak English and Swahili and Mama come in the village want to follow the proceedings and they can't be able to understand what you're speaking so when you have such to be very easy so if we go nations and maybe for example the law has a law council or like a law assembly where their leader the representative in level come to speak to them they will speak law and they'll easily understand what's going on but that is what I'm talking about when you look at the South Africa's case is the same problem of the failure of new colonial states >> South African case is very simple one community basically where they're in Bosswana, they're in Zimbabwe, then Leoto, they're inotini, they want community. In fact, some of them are are like an island. I have a friend from Leo and is like an entire country inside a country. What's that really? So then when you tell, leave alone telling somebody from Nigeria for somebody for in South Africa >> because of a territory but these people are basing one entire community. So if you could treat them like that we could not be having this issues then nobody would be a foreigner.

[00:19:51]>> But in you see even if you go in our nationhood >> I thinking >> mhm >> even akuyu could go to kambani and borrow something >> they were doing exchange for their trade and nobody will say that in borrowing something or trading something is a foreigner. You see the way the way we do it in in counties here in Kenya whereby Hanifa can go to Machakos and start a business >> and she will pay the same same taxes without necessarily having to pay different taxes just because she's she's in Machakos County. She might pay because Machakos County government has got maybe a different way of doing things, different bylaws, but she's still governed by the laws of Kenya. I I would rather we we start with first of all abolishing the what do they call the boundaries for us like let them still be there fine let Kenya be Kenya then Tanzania Tanzania Uganda Uganda but Uganda I don't even need a passport I do not need a visa I just need to walk in there >> that's very simple if you as wanted to visit somebody in Somali >> yes >> Somali community in Ga would they ask you for a visa But when you become a somisa county, the extra things will be asked.

[00:21:07]>> But when you walk straight to another community, there will not be these things of who you are. You're just visiting your brothers and sisters in Somalia in Tanzania. Same for me.

[00:21:14]>> Anifa has been to Somalia. Will your visa?

[00:21:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. Ask for visa >> in Somalia.

[00:21:21]>> Yeah.

[00:21:22]>> When you travel to Somalia, you need a visa. Yes.

[00:21:24]>> To see you at the same community. So you see I'm thinking that uh uh this creation of countries are actually problematic. We are trying to sustain them >> but you're not sure if they really serve our interest cuz for example as somebody for example ai in a m >> what has that call Kenya done to your community to change your life as a as a community >> it'll be absolutely zero. You see and the problem now we devolving them with the counties now the tyrant of numbers is moving down to the counties now where the community with the numbers or the clan with the numbers will always control but I think we can solve that and even reduce what Africa spend in terms of even 54 of states reduce them to one 12,000 members of parliament to 3,000 those over 100,000 whatever can be reduced and at the end of the day the purpose of a is to serve a community so if you represent a community and you can have an avenue to talk to your community it's very easy to represent their But today for example our president represent Kenyans >> but when he goes everywhere else he do he does his own deals and he has Kenyans are like no this this 11 whatever ratifications of you now being signed today >> even know where they came from basically there was no public participation to tell people that France is coming now we are preparing these policies put in your input we see that when we sign we are signing the interest of Kenyans with France >> but here is what R want this administration with France. So there's nobody there's no any citizens actually represented there is president thinking that now I have absolute power to represent my people and what I think or what I like is what they like. Let me sign it.

[00:22:59]>> No. Okay. Speaking of pan-Africanism, I have a question for you as a pan-African um President Emmanuel Macron said I quote, "We are the true Panaffricanist.

[00:23:10]We believe that Africa is a continent and that this continent has an enormous amount to build. It is the youngest in the world and therefore has an extraordinary demographic dividend. It is the one it is the one with the greatest growth in the world. Do you agree with him >> that he is the true panafricanist?

[00:23:30]>> That one allows people from former French colonies if they could call Macrona a true panafricanist or if they could call France a true pana and the reality of the matter is that they don't have interest for Africa. M >> what they have is their interest in Africa >> not that they have interest for Africa for you to be a troop in Africa is that you must put Africa interest first >> the data of us being the youngest continental that's what they know >> and that's why they here >> but they don't have any interest of Africa at heart they have the interest in Africa >> and that's what all their foreign policy is all about >> push forward your interest so when they come they say they are panafrican in fact I was laughing at that story and I shared that story across some of my Panaffrican platform either in South Africa, West Africa, diaspora and people are like do this person really know what he's talking about. Can people really be proud that Macron and you know the history of France in terms of their former colonies in fact is the brutal >> colonizer brutal in terms of even the policies of economics how they were doing the the part of West Africa how they handled them their minerals how even the payback mron coming here to say that he's a troop in Africa is just actually telling R that you see >> this is just an abuse on your face >> cuz you can't come to claim that in the continent of Africa And hosting France and I'm saying it is not Africa forward summit.

[00:24:53]>> Yeah. I wanted to ask that what does it mean for Kenya to host the summit uh considering that French or rather the France influence has been disposed in the Sahel regions. Now Kenya is appearing to be a true puppet. There's no way somebody kills your neighbor and you can host them in your house and give them space to contain them.

[00:25:19]What does that prove? At the end of the day, you walk back to France. But what is the relationship between you and your neighbor when he walks away?

[00:25:26]>> That's the problem you are trying to kill. See, there's no way somebody exploit West Africa. Then you host them in East Africa.

[00:25:31]>> Then when they go back, your neighbor is no longer your neighbor. He's your enemy now. But because you know this person has some pocket of money.

[00:25:38]>> If France has any money that can change Kenya, they could start by changing West Africa.

[00:25:44]>> If they have any good intention, they have been there for over 60 years.

[00:25:47]>> If they've not transformed anything tangible to the life of people in West Africa, why do they want to lie to us that they are going to transform?

[00:25:53]>> Let me ask you know when you when you when you and I like that and yes um questions should be asked when you were there. what did you do?

[00:26:06]Yeah, it's just like a CV. When someone wants um to get a job, you you ask them, okay, where have you worked before?

[00:26:12]>> Let us see what you've delivered. We can trust you with delivering for us. Right?

[00:26:17]But when it comes to now, let's let's be let's think about this thing. Uh do I say logically or in an intricate manner?

[00:26:28]France has come then they have their own interest.

[00:26:33]only given 150%.

[00:26:35]>> But isn't it also our responsibility through our leadership to ensure that we get the best deal out of it? They come, they see, they see, they look at the the the the whatever contract it is that we have and they say no, get rid of number one, get rid of number 17 and also number 77, delete. Isn't that the responsibility of our leadership?

[00:26:55]>> But do you it is actually no when you engage somebody you must also put your interest first.

[00:27:00]>> Yeah. M so for France then they putting them first even if they sugar it >> but do you think and that's what I'm not calling us poor >> but do you think a poor person when visited by a rich person can have any power to demand what they want >> beggars can be choosers >> do you think you can in the table whereby >> somebody's coming with almost 400 billion in investment then you want to tell them no I also want like this so put this away bring this here so that I get this you know we we They are like already beggars. So we moving to a space where we begging for something. Not even that we are calling for equal partnership. In fact what they saying that is an equal partnership. They can never be equality between two people of different classes. There cannot be equality. So at the end of the day we will only have to sign in. Look for example the deal that court just stopped the deal for us.

[00:27:49]>> Look at it how it was structured.

[00:27:51]>> I think Ghana the president of Ghana refused.

[00:27:54]>> Yeah. But the funny thing that actually surprised us Bokina signed that deal is a big problem we having in the Panaffrican space. How did Bkinaaso >> which appears to be revolutionary for the first time take a deal of medical deal from us while many African countries are are refusing that deal? So what I'm saying that we are not in a position movie as much as we can get something we are not in a position to actually benefit maximally from the position we having cuz we are just beggars and anything we get even if you get that 200 billion do you know that 200 billion even out of this dealer how much is that in in France very little so they giving you like a percent >> but you're giving them access to a lot that they want that is the biggest problem we have >> so any leader and I think African leaders are not in a position to actually put the best interest of their country first because they are always moving to a table as beggars.

[00:28:43]>> Unless they move as a united Africa, then they can begin with the resources they have. Now you need them. But in this case, >> Kenya now need France more than France need Kenya.

[00:28:53]>> Literally France need Kenya more than Kenya needs it cuz the resources they're going to unlock here. There are so many things they're going to take from this place and they'll benefit them. And that's why you see the colonizers came as missionaries. They having their Bibles or anything else and then they preach for you the good gospel. your brothers and sisters then you tell them okay there's a space here kindly sleep because we are good people as Africans you can just go then they leave the place they know where the building is the kitchen is where and then they come back with guns >> and you're like hey so you are my friend that hosted you the other day here >> then because I think we are still friends I tell okay just take what you want you are a friend >> then they go with everything else that's where we have been and now we are actually putting a red carpet for a new colonialism >> a red carpet just a wide red carpet come But what is going to cost us in the next 20 or 30 years is unimaginable. Even when you talk of the China deal alone even the west look at look there was look at even the east when you talk of good China deals how they coming in we billing for euros blah blah blah blah for what >> they are exchanging this agreement that they also have an interest in they cannot just give their road that free they have an >> of course they're giving us loans and we are paying an interest on those loans >> but you you saw the other day I think it was Mar saying that loan interest in in China is 3% but here it's different >> so at the end of the day I I think uh Sankar addressed this in 1983 when he was talking about debt in OU and in in fact three years later he was killed assassinated and he asked the leaders before he stopped his speech that if we don't unite from here we have a united front against debt I will not attend the next conference and actually didn't attend >> because what he was raising is that we hear about Paris club and those boss so many clubs where we go ask loan for why don't you have a disab so then let's go borrow from Yeah, >> rather than going for the Paris club and so many other clubs out there, Africa still have people can put their resources. Safariccom can still put some resources there and ask countries to borrow from there, develop your country and bring it back. You see, but we are not thinking in this direction cuz we need to start thinking on how do you liberate ourel in terms of economics and debt and debt issues, currency issues.

[00:31:00]At least some of us we have managed to move away from currencies a bit. But you see what France was doing in West Africa is to steal their currency, pure their currency. We're walking away from currency. That is another trap here. But if you could borrow internally, if a community has some few billionaires and some few poor people, why don't the billionaires put a pull together for that money?

[00:31:15]>> I think is waiting for a go ahead from R to build the refinery.

[00:31:21]>> Yes. But let me let me ask you, how did someone like Dangote make his money?

[00:31:26]>> No, it's very interesting. I've listened to some of people from Nigeria cuz we interact a lot. He actually got support from the government >> and he had the good >> the Nigerian government.

[00:31:33]>> Yeah. M >> apart from the little money he had and the family privilege cuz he also had some good power generational >> wealth somehow but the government gave him a lot >> and you see as people like maybe wiggies and ask people billionaires yeah we know you realize the government play a lot of role for them to be where they are >> these are how government favors them somebody can't tell you that they just moved in like that how they cut deals with government here and there so that they survive >> but funny thing I was getting some statistic that even The price for that cement in Niger is expensive than what they spend.

[00:32:08]>> Yes. Yeah, I saw it. Yeah.

[00:32:10]>> And the is going to producing the same cement in his country, but the cement in his country is expensive than outside his country. So is someone you can depend on when it comes to >> locally sourcing support >> capitalist >> and I'll go to that capitalist interest is profit >> and profit sometimes demands exploitation >> for you to make the profit >> and therefore the nature of what you have as much as you benefit a bit from capitalism cuz then the so-called ang will build for you a small school somewhere maybe have a small road some hospital somewhere that's something I give back to the committee but this is less than what they take so they'll just shove a bit by saying we are good people you see we are charitable people we are building for you schools here and roads here but the key intention is that they exploit at any expense so that they can make their profit with them your welfare doesn't matter it's profit and that is the problem you're having even in capitalism today in Africa cuz if people like then probably Nigeria could not be that poor if he has all those billions of money he could help the country cuz actually this money that is having is from Nigerian's people >> so why don't you return it back somehow and help the Then you tell us in Kenya, yeah, now I'm interested to come here.

[00:33:17]That's a businessman with a strategic business focus >> and you're dealing with a government that should not also be business oriented. Government should be about the welfare of the people. How do you put your people's interest first? But our presidents and our leaders in parliament are also businessoriented. So we can't deal. I'll give you as Tanzania get me 20% directly not to the government directly as my share as president R. So when I retire, I'll be taking 20% shares out of the company you built here in Kenya. So that is the problem we having.

[00:33:40]Everybody's pulling on their side.

[00:33:42]Leaders want to be rich. In fact, that's why they are trying to privatize the entire government. So that sell this sell that you you got that scandal. I don't know of MG or whatever sugar company we're being linked by this Indians and whatever.

[00:33:54]>> Everybody's trying to sell something then they buy the same something. So you come to government have everything else like in a house and you say that to then you're the only one who's going to buy the same kitty. So you send your friend I'll decide the price and come buy it and I come own it later. That is the problem. So we are stealing the government. we are actually turning government from public resources we got to private resources for our own benefit and that's the danger we are having so this country even move in this direction many people will not afford this country many citizen will not afford this country and the problem we having in South Africa in terms of the so-called xenophobic attack I'll give you a practical example in Kenya for example you just imagine now you're having burundians in Kenya here we having Ugandans coming here we have Tanzanians coming here and the reason why they're coming in is because either our economy or the currency is a bit strong so then when you pay them 200 shillings to them is a lot of money. Kenyans cannot survive on 200 shillings and that is the exploitation going on in South Africa.

[00:34:50]As I'm telling you, capitalist will always want profit and exploit that profit. So what they'll do? They'll get cheap labor. Today we are the same same people in our houses who have employed those burundis and those Ugandans as housewives and whatever or housemates working for us. And why don't you employ Kenyans cuz Kenya maybe will require 20,000 or 15,000 to being a maid but a Uganda will require 5,000 to be a maid.

[00:35:11]So what do you do? You better put a Uganda there in the house to be a maid.

[00:35:14]Then what happens to this young Kenyan lady who wanted to be the same maid? Do they not have any source of income? At the end of the day, this Uganda lady will collect a lot of money and then become a billionaire, open the next shop there. Then she'll employ the Kenyan lady to go work in the same shop. That is the critical scenario that's going on in South Africa. So then Kenyans will say okay why are we in our country and the workers union of South Africa. In fact, we have talked to the secretary general of the Panaffrican Congress of Azania is my good friend the current secretary general from South from South Africa and what they saying that the workers must demand for better pay better wages for the citizens >> so that when they stop immigrants coming in what they call the immigrants who should not be actual immigrants is to ensure that these so-al immigrants cannot be exposed to take cheap money cuz when they take cheap money no South African will be employed but you see the reason why even When people leave Kenya and other countries anyway, not just Kenya alone, and they go to places like the US, the UK, Germany, and they go there as illegal immigrants.

[00:36:13]>> Yes.

[00:36:14]>> See, they are going to take those um jobs that Germans will not do.

[00:36:18]>> Yes.

[00:36:18]>> Or Americans will not do the or the Brits will not do. and they take for much less because when you pay when you pay that Kenyan there uh equivalent of um let's say um I don't know how much >> let's say 100,000 for a housewife maybe a house lady >> a house a house help right so 100 >> but you see that is >> for an advanced country >> a country that their normal interest or the basic interest is already met But in a country that the population has not advanced to that level then you interfere with that population to progress you realize that this population will be left here. But in general for example as you're saying they have everything as they want in UK.

[00:37:02]So telling somebody to go for a petrol station where I'm going to get there but in Kenya here somebody need that house work somebody need that that simple job in a shop but because you don't want to pay them the same amount you leave them down here but in the other side they don't need that job. They don't need it.

[00:37:18]Let me ask let me ask um the average Kenyan I think we saw some some bulletin last week or the week before that that Kenyans who are earning 100,000 and above >> so majority of Kenyans wanting but let's even assume it's 100,000 so you have 100,000 I don't know how much the rent is but 20,000 even Let's put it at 1500K.

[00:37:57]This Kenyan will not be able to afford to pay that house help that minimum wage of even 15,000.

[00:38:03]>> It is true because you have not developed or progress your people beyond.

[00:38:06]>> So that is why you will find them as but I'm just pointing they'll bring in cheap labor.

[00:38:18]That is true. But that is true. But the reality of the matter is that we are running away from the same problem.

[00:38:23]>> When now it tickles like what happens in South Africa and then you go back to the same same issue asking where did it start from? You see cuz in nobody want of course to spend more. Everybody want to save in their spending.

[00:38:35]>> But in in a country whereby of course as you're saying there are so many things you are looking for. For example in a family here if even if you have maybe two kids or whatever just food alone will be maybe a,000 average a day. Mone many people are either earning 40 or 50,000 >> maybe even 100 40 or 50,000 basically if they have to survive only there's no any money left for them now because the population earn little and they still need services that's why they go for cheaper labor and they go for cheaper labor >> is the government or the country that has not created an environment for them to earn more. For example, why should your employer pay you 40,000? He has so many reasons to give you. Oh, this is here. Cost is here, this is here, this is here, that's why I'm getting you 40.

[00:39:26]But if you lower that and put an environment where everybody can create their own business or everybody can have a conducive environment to work, they'll pay you more or even you not need employment, you'll also create your own employment.

[00:39:36]>> But um if Anifa for example, Anifa studied journalism, right? I'm sure in your class I don't know how many people you graduated but I am sure it was more than 20.

[00:39:46]>> Yes.

[00:39:47]>> In that in that one class alone >> already media jobs as they are. So let's say for for 4 years that was in university every year 20 people graduated. So of the 80 people that have graduated before her and that is just for the four years Hanifa was in campus that is a poor planning from government. So the the point I was trying to bring home is this. If Anifa comes here and we offer her 40,000 for example and she's like 40,000,000 time my friend there are 80 other people behind you who need the same job and they're willing to take even less than that 40.

[00:40:34]>> That's true but they will be surviving in the same salary. The issue here is they need it because they have nothing.

[00:40:40]So you taking advantage of people being desperate so that you can put them in.

[00:40:45]You see the problem of education is poor planning. Why should government offer courses when they know there's no government know who graduated where those records are there. So why do you continue graduating teachers or you there's no schools anywhere there's no employment rate even when you're doing uptake for example they're saying they're going to employ 20,000 but how many people graduate annually? So why do you then stop education as a course of other courses that you don't have people? cuz I spent my four years because you said I should be a teacher.

[00:41:10]Pay my money and that's why even have an issue with the government taxing me or asking me that I have a loan for education. Why do you loan me education?

[00:41:16]I'm going to serve your citizens not my my family. I'm going to teach citizens in your country who are going to pay you tax as a government. So basically the person who need me to be educated more is the government cuz they need me to serve the citizens.

[00:41:29]>> I agree with you education.

[00:41:30]>> That's the beginning. That's the beginning. So that I'm serving the citizens who can contribute to economy.

[00:41:34]>> Yes. But then you lo by helping the community and the country to grow. M you see so when government knows that we have 100,000 unemployed teachers then stop teaching try it somewhere else know what is missing so that you balance an economy but at the end of the day you'll be having everybody else they need job what do they do they'll come for your political positions like now we are going for them cuz at the end of the day what where do you want to go and you have to survive >> you have money you've spent you have time you spend so these are few things that I I still blame in terms of planning >> and where do you think ku comes in in all of this this labor talks >> no you see The origin of labor is to or any assocation you are in is to at least organize so that you can advocate for your welfare.

[00:42:18]>> That's the genesis of everything else.

[00:42:20]The reason why you join a union is to improve your welfare.

[00:42:22]>> Whether it's a chama, whether it's whatever is to improve your welfare.

[00:42:26]>> But then the court we have today is not anywhere close to any welfare of a country.

[00:42:31]>> The court we have today is a court that is trying to survive.

[00:42:40]15% coming from the same finance.

[00:42:53]Yeah. You see so what we are having is that uh I think I think we we having a in fact even when government work properly we don't even to have union to agitate >> cuz everything else will be running. Why do you have to pay every day? Look at how doctors survive here.

[00:43:11]>> They struggle to teach you or to treat you and then they still struggle to get their pay >> and they're on the roads.

[00:43:17]>> Yeah. Every day >> and they're treating the citizens and they still on the road every day demanding to be paid.

[00:43:22]>> That cannot work for our countries.

[00:43:24]>> So there are few things we need to get right moving and I think you're trying to find a way on how do you have enough resources for us to implement that.

[00:43:31]>> There's another thing that you need to talk about. Yes, >> how do you get enough resources to work as a country so that we can sustain what you have? But again, we need to start to have a conversation that how do we lower >> the cost of running a government?

[00:43:44]>> Cuz when you talk about 70% current expenditure, that's too much.

[00:43:47]>> It's as if the only work we do as citizens is to touch us so that we can pay you where there's no service you're giving me. So it's 70% current expenditure every day.

[00:43:56]>> You're sustaining offices, you're sustaining vehicles that do not even have or bringing it up to your house. So why should I keep on paying you tax?

[00:44:04]>> Why should I keep on giving you my contribution? And there's nothing I'm seeing in this country.

[00:44:08]>> Yes.

[00:44:08]>> So that is the biggest problem you still have to ask when says that for example they need I don't know 40 trillion for the budget or whatever they want for the budget 42.

[00:44:16]>> 4.2. Yes.

[00:44:17]>> Yeah. Talk about that 4.2 >> and you get 70% you will still be told it's recurrent expenditure.

[00:44:24]>> So even if 70% is just on your current expend where are you going? M where you going?

[00:44:33]It's like you're earning 20,000 by 15,000. Where are you going?

[00:44:38]That's the biggest problem you have.

[00:44:49]the next debt collector.

[00:44:57]Let me ask you the simple argument I'm putting across.

[00:45:06]What are you trying to say? The biggest thing for this government and what the citizens are interested is just improve my welfare.

[00:45:12]>> If you can make me have access to education for free or or healthare or food or something like that, expressway somewhere else I don't care but tell me that we are planning to build 10 stadium somewhere which infrastructure somewhere How can you go infor manufacturing laptops and phones and I don't know how he's not informed and he has ability to be informed on what's going on.

[00:45:59]Who is this guy?

[00:46:06]Hey, forgive me.

[00:46:19]million and same country.

[00:46:30]We all citizens proud Kenyans. How how can we be proud Kenyans in the same country?

[00:46:35]>> Yeah.

[00:46:37]>> So you're against capitalism?

[00:46:39]>> No. To some extent of its exploitative interest. If capitalism could be collecting money and help them the people well and good you know even when you take you know >> it is not very right that you come in a community like Migori for example where there's gold >> yes >> and you take that gold and pay them maybe two bob and you're going to say that gold at maybe 10,000 surely how do you feel the problem is how our leaders you know sometimes example Mhm.

[00:47:27]Then by the time the season is done, we have harvested like for example in my Shamba I have I think like 70 trees >> of mango. Mhm. There's no one point or one day I've I've never sold those mangoes. But you will find another tribe like the a bag of coffee for free.

[00:47:48]>> Now you see now it won't happen. That's why we also bring some level of perspective >> or perception we have as well.

[00:47:56]>> Generally irrespective of the tribe we come from >> the way to is always there. is is not there. I've witnessed it honestly for the past 2 years and I love it. What it's there to our community that our together >> community let's say community yes >> for example I visited of course central Kenya sometimes you see when when you when somebody start to commercialize some things is the situation making him to do that >> I think the system that we are in and the environment >> try to sell you for example you don't tell me you're rich enough that you can't sell those 70 mangoes >> I can I can sell and do you think they can't give you any I'm sure they can.

[00:48:38]>> But you see >> it is you you know how you regulate your interest for money as well.

[00:48:44]>> You know how you regulate your interest for money as well. As much as you need it for survival, but you also think you can still have that part of you that says that I'm still in this level. I've never seen someone come to give me free coffee.

[00:48:56]>> We have coffee growers in this country.

[00:48:59]Unless unless it was for marketing purposes, go try this then you know sell it for us. But I've never gone somewhere.

[00:49:08]Here's a bag of of coffee beans.

[00:49:10]>> Your friends are >> friends, neighbors, whatever you want to call.

[00:49:14]>> Change your friends.

[00:49:15]>> I changed them. You've gotten free coffee. No, >> listen. Maybe by the Yes, I've lived in a community. I have experienced what a community means. So, it is possible. But >> so so let me just tell you this as a friend of mine >> when we always used to give as a community we couldn't put any value to that when we give >> okay >> and for example when maybe you help an old lady maybe along the road to carry some luggage to the house you don't demand what you need to get after the the lady can decide to give you porridge to give you maybe sweet potato. They give what they have and you won't actually start quantifying that in this. You see and we actually also don't have because we going to eat jug in the other side or we going to be given milk in the other side. You feel it's a responsibility >> and this is what is running away from us as a people. We are trying to get away from who we are the uetu and the capitalist system you're moving to cannot fit all of us.

[00:50:23]>> But why do you think socialism failed in Tanzania? No, you see it's not a matter of failure.

[00:50:28]>> It's a matter of how you organize a society.

[00:50:31]>> You see, for example, they say sometimes now China is now practicing capitalism a bit and communism a bit, >> but they have built their country to some level.

[00:50:39]>> You see, it depends on how you organize.

[00:50:42]For example, you cannot say everything is free.

[00:50:44]>> There's some level of development that you must put in place. And what I always say, the government responsibility is very simple. Sometimes people ask, is government a necessary evil?

[00:50:52]>> That's a big question we ask. Is actually government a necessary evil?

[00:50:55]But the role of government is actually 200,000 but ensure that at least every citizen get the bare minimum.