The Day America Became A Superpower

追加: 2026-06-04

[00:00:00]Welcome to We Have Ways of Making You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Episode six now, >> final episode >> of our series, The Visionaries. What we've been talking about is um well, our central character in these last five episodes has been um FDR, >> but we started with Truman.

[00:00:15]>> Yeah.

[00:00:15]>> And Truman imminently is about >> is about to enter stage left. He is because and um I think what's one of the one of the things about and we talk we joke about this a lot um when we on the podcast is that you know whoever's writing this stuff is too on the nose.

[00:00:33]The death of Roosevelt in April of 1945 does feel like the writers kind of overe the pudding a little doesn't it >> a little bit. Yeah >> it does right um because after all Hitler Hitler by that stage of the war is sat by an enormous portrait of outer fritz of Frederick the Great.

[00:00:48]>> Yes.

[00:00:48]>> Hoping something comes up. Yes, >> it seems uh with the death of Roosevelt that something has come up, but as we'll see um what it actually changes is is is really not much, which I think which is fascinating about it. So, by the late summer 1944, there's allied hope that the war will all be over by Christmas. Y >> um for good reason, I think.

[00:01:10]>> Yeah. Well, yeah, because I mean because they're all looking at the previous war.

[00:01:14]They're looking at the end of the First World War and the collapse of the the German front line in in uh um towards the end of uh 1918 and they're making better progress than than their predecessors did at the end of the First World War. And they're thinking, well, it's it's got to happen any minute now.

[00:01:29]There's been >> Germany Germany's collapsing. Cities are in ruins. We've hammered it oil supplies, it synthetic.

[00:01:35]>> There's been an assassination attempt on the on the fur himself. So, it looks like there's a coup any could happen any second. Yep. I mean what's interesting though is the Germans because their supply lines are getting shorter are stabilizing vissian elastic as they call it >> right and the allied supply lines lines are getting longer yes >> you know and that's one of the old dynamics of warfare that the the further from home you get the harder it is and the closer to home you get in theory the >> and also fighting modern wars with lots of machinery is not very easy in winter and as we've said many times before >> oh here it comes folks >> the winters were bad in the 1940s >> there you No, >> let's bring it up. Had to bring it up.

[00:02:13]>> We aim to please. We offer to deliver.

[00:02:15]And we've delivered the poor winters of the 1940s. Hitler um launches one last major counterattack through the Arden.

[00:02:23]The scene of his the scene of his great triumph in uh in May of 1940. He does this in December 1944. Um he wants to get to Antwerp. He thinks he can render the co coalition aside by splitting the Allied armies apart and then they'll collapse and then he can fight the Soviets. But it's just it's >> it's blown. It's just it's just >> totally mad bonkers.

[00:02:44]>> And we we we filmed a walk in the ground series about this and actually came to sort of standing in standing in um ice blasted fields in Belgium going what is the point of any of this?

[00:02:54]>> Yeah. And we we said and you made the very good point I thought um that it's always referred to as Hitler's last gamble, but a gamble suggests you got a chance.

[00:03:02]>> Yeah.

[00:03:02]>> Which you didn't.

[00:03:03]>> You didn't have a chance and he's not even betting on 100 to one against it.

[00:03:07]it it can ne this can never work and all it can ever do is uh fritter his strategic reserve.

[00:03:13]>> Yes.

[00:03:14]>> It's it's a wildly stupid thing to do and wasteful. And you you think of >> Yeah.

[00:03:19]>> you think of the the parents of a lancer killed in in you know at the end of December in 1944 in this offensive if she wants she wants to see the pointlessness of Nazism underlined hard.

[00:03:29]Here it is. Yeah. So by the end of January 1945 Germany's over as a military force. It's done.

[00:03:37]>> And this is really insticated by the collapse of the Reichkes bar.

[00:03:40]Reichspond's a glue that's which is the German railway network is the glue that's kept the show on the road because they don't have enough vehicles and they don't have enough oil, but they have got enough coal just about.

[00:03:50]>> So they can keep the right one going, but it's been hammered relentlessly by allied bombers. It just can't can't function. You know, the Martian yards are are wreck the coal supplies are finally running low. There's no point in skin keeping going. But Hillary doesn't surrender because it's thousand year Reich or Armageddon and so it's going to be Armageddon and they're not quite at Armageddon yet. They almost are. Um and and this is absolutely infuriating for the allies who still got to fight the Japanese in the Pacific. You know, this is just this is just completely pointless. Um it's it's achieving nothing apart from causing more destruction and mayhem and more lives and they are getting very angry about this which is how you can start to understand the kind of the viciousness of which the bombing campaign continues.

[00:04:30]I think it's just like oh for just goodness sake just stop. In Burma, um the Anglo-Indian 14th Army is winning um and making against the Japanese small with small losses. In fact, the Japanese army is having the tar kicked out of it completely relentlessly. But but but but this characterizes all the fighting against the Japanese. You have to link winkle that last man out of that last out of that last slit trench out of that last bunker because the Japanese will not surrender. They will not give their lives cheap.

[00:04:59]>> No, they won't. and and that's been been absolutely clear from you know island battles such as Pelu September to November 1944 um and with the invasion of Luzon uh one of the larger of the Philippine islands and where Manila is based the capital of the Philippines this turns into a brutal awful bloodletting um and then of course you got Eroima in February and then you've got um Okinawa in in in April so really really tough time and and it's absolutely clear that the closer they get to to the Japanese home islands the or um the Japanese fight as you say.

[00:05:32]>> Yeah. And the Japanese are also now locked into a spiral where they think if they can exact as much pain as they can from the Americans, the Americans will throw in the will they got more of a bargaining point.

[00:05:42]>> Exactly. They've got more to bargain with. Yeah. Exactly. And that the unconditional surrender will be will become conditional. This is what's in the back of everyone's minds in Western Europe, which is why in the end that the Western Allies don't pursue um uh the Germans to Berlin and decide against it.

[00:05:57]Eisenhower halts on the river Elbert which is 50 mi west of Berlin and and you can argue um given the way the Germans are surrendering to the Western Allies at the stage at this stage >> they' have walked into Berlin.

[00:06:08]>> They' have walked into Berlin.

[00:06:09]>> They would have done but he's not prepared to take the risk.

[00:06:11]>> Well, because he thinks he's going to need them for the invasion of Japan.

[00:06:14]>> Exactly.

[00:06:14]>> And what what what's the point of taking the risk when you've got the Red Army quite happy to do that? Yeah.

[00:06:19]>> And at this point, you know, the real politic, you know, as far as they're concerned, Nazi Germany's been beaten.

[00:06:24]They don't really care where that iron curtain descends. that's going to come.

[00:06:28]Um, and it's not even certain that that is going to come, by the way. Yeah. So, Eisenhower insists and he he overrules political >> he makes the decision entirely by himself.

[00:06:37]>> By himself is my point. He doesn't he doesn't take in the political considerations of the British or the French or anything like that. He just goes, "Nope, this is what's going to be." And that very same day, the 12th of April 1945 is the day that that um Roosevelt um dies.

[00:06:52]>> Yeah.

[00:06:53]>> He has a massive cerebral hemorrhage.

[00:06:55]He'd been very ill for a long time. His sort of arteries clogging up and all the rest of it. Um and although he was only 63 or something, um he looked a hell of a lot older. He looked sort of man in his mid-7s at the very youngest.

[00:07:05]>> Yeah.

[00:07:05]>> And he's down in the little white house down in Georgia recovering from that huge trip he does to Yaltta and then to Saudi Arabia and Yeah. And he dies. So suddenly, you know, vice president is is is has got to take over. I mean this is an extraordinary moment though because the the alter conference has has has which is where we had Stalin presenting his um uh toast >> strangely emoleian toast um it is the second of the it's the second of the big big three uh conferences and um and of also also in the mix is the fact that FDR has stood for office again and won Stalin for this conference won't leave the Soviet Union he's supposedly fear afraid of flying but it's also a power move.

[00:07:52]>> He's he's dick waving. He's saying, "No, you come to me."

[00:07:55]>> Yeah.

[00:07:55]>> I'm not coming to you. You come to me.

[00:07:57]It's as simple as that. So FDR, despite him being in poor health and Churchill um um didn't emerge unscathed from the previous big three conferences, he was very sick after that.

[00:08:07]>> Yeah. He got pneumonia in December 1943.

[00:08:09]>> Yeah, exactly. Nearly did for him. Um uh so FDR flies all the way there in very bad health. Um uh Yolt has been smashed up cuz the Germans have only been evicted eight months previously.

[00:08:19]>> Yes. So all the accommodation for the big, you know, for the for the big guys are Roosevelt and Church and stuff is all a bit down a heel. Yeah.

[00:08:25]>> Put it mildly.

[00:08:26]>> And and and this is when uh Roosevelt is very much hoping that there will be postwar cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union despite the fact that they're, you know, of different political persuasions. and he thinks that what what could happen is a a a big commercial agreement once the war's over where the Americans are going to offer credit um uh and export equipment desperately needed by the Soviets because the Soviet Union has been has been uh smashed up not just by the the Nazis by the Germans but by the Soviet Union. Yes.

[00:08:59]>> In it scorched earth in its scorched earth policy approach to the war.

[00:09:03]>> And there are massive mineral reserves in the Soviet Union too because because they're blessed with great mineral resources. is the Soviets and lend lease is still going at this point. So >> Roosevelt thinks, well, there's a deal.

[00:09:14]There's a there's a deal to be done.

[00:09:17]>> Incredibly, Stalin asks for a $6 billion loan.

[00:09:20]>> Yeah.

[00:09:21]>> You know, we we were laughing about how he's paranoid about everything except the things he ought to be paranoid about. His cynicism is sort of visible from space, isn't it? This is one of the interesting things that FDR doesn't have the measure of Stalin really, does he?

[00:09:35]>> No. I think it's Roosevelt's great failing that he underestimates Stalin.

[00:09:38]doesn't really get his measure and doesn't really understand how it works and what what Soviet ambition is. You know, he's guilty of not looking at the situation through the prism of the Soviets's viewpoint.

[00:09:48]>> Yeah. I mean, do you think it's forgivable that he that he gets this wrong?

[00:09:52]>> Yeah, of course it's forgivable because he's such a great man. But I think it's it's failing, you know. Yeah. That that's the one bit he gets wrong.

[00:09:59]>> And but also what he wants to do is end the war. I mean, so much so much of how you can characterize Roosevelt's decision making, he wants the war to end as quickly as possible. And that means offering the Soviets a big a big loan.

[00:10:11]If that means offering them credit, then you do it, right? Because you you want it over with.

[00:10:15]>> Yeah.

[00:10:15]>> Um uh uh and I mean what's amazing is Harry Dexter White, who's probably a Soviet spy, >> I think. Yeah, definitely.

[00:10:22]>> He says that Morgan Tower should offer $10 million$10 billion um to be repaid over 35 years at 2% interest, >> which is favorable terms between superpowers. Y >> and this deal is still being thrashed out when the alter conference is going on. Roosevelt thinks that Stalin is going to be less aggressive than and less less dangerous than Hitler. And he also thinks that money basically >> he's going to talk >> that Cash is going to talk. I mean, if there's one quality Hitler lacks, he's not a he's not good at rail politic.

[00:10:53]>> No, >> Stalin is brilliant at rail politic.

[00:10:55]Stalin is an ideologue. Stalin is a revolutionary in the way that Hitler's an ideologue and a revolutionary, but he's a real real politique guy. He's he's about achieving what he can for his own interests, whereas Hitler's about >> conquering the world and making everyone go to Vagnner, right? Or or whatever, you know, >> and and yes, and getting rid of Jews >> and giant buildings and and other other things. Whereas Stalin is about power.

[00:11:20]Stalin just more than anything else he wants his own sphere of influence and he wants a massive giant buffer so that nothing like breast leaves can ever happen again and that's his DNA don't forget you know that's where he's growing up as a revolutionary in the in you know the naughties of of the 20th century.

[00:11:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. When he comes to power that's that's the the scenario that he he want you know he wants to avoid.

[00:11:40]>> Yeah.

[00:11:41]>> Yeah. There are agreements at Yulton and and the and these really are. I mean I was a teenager in the 1980s.

[00:11:48]Cold War is the sort of thing I I grew up knowing about and this is this is that was my status quo and this is where this is formed. So >> the key points at Yelter are that Germany will be divided into four occupation zones. The Soviet zone so becomes East Germany, British zone, American zone, French zone >> and that Nazi leaders will be tried for war crimes. Yeah. Poland will regain independence but with very very different borders.

[00:12:13]>> Yes, it's going to move it's going to move west.

[00:12:15]>> It's going to move west. The idea is that this this further extends the the Soviet's western border essentially.

[00:12:23]>> Um uh and that the western borders will go up to the river rivers Oda and Nissa and Stalin um says he'll allow free elections in Poland but >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever.

[00:12:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. So, you know, this is a controversial point. Lawrence Reese has written has written about this about about you know Britain's quite an angry book about Britain's failure Britain's failure Churchill's bargain in this this but what on earth >> could they do >> could a British government do >> nothing >> there's a new security council um which exists to this day involving the Soviet Union America Britain China and later France and this and it's going to be called the United Nations >> wow >> with a general assembly of all member states imagine >> such a thing So, it's sort of League of Nations 2, but with a with a with a with >> well, it's entirely based on the on the principles of the Atlantic Charter as well that we talked about in the last episode.

[00:13:15]>> This is a world order that involves the Soviets because after all, the Soviet government spent the 20s not being recognized by anybody and not taken seriously and being and basically being having stuff run against it. So, the fact that they're now in this Yeah.

[00:13:28]>> is is incredibly important. Poor old FDR who's exhausted, played out, returns to returns to the US and delivers >> on March 1st. Yeah. having having stopped off in Egypt, the Red Sea to to talk to the king of the Saudis.

[00:13:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:43]>> And and he in the past he's always hidden. Everyone knows that he is um paralyzed from the waist down from polio which he suffers in 1921 and which leaves him permanently um disabled. But he always manages to stand up for public addresses in his calipers.

[00:14:00]It's all very painful, but he does it.

[00:14:02]But he's so exhausted that he can't. And so on the 1st of March, he speaks at Congress and he sits and he says, "I hope you will pardon me for this unusual posture of sitting down, but I know that you will realize it makes it a lot easier for me not to have to carry about 10 lb of steel around on the bottom of my legs. And also because of the fact I have just completed a 14,000mi round trip. I mean, there you have it. I mean, what on earth were the Americans are doing allowing him to do this trip in the first place? But incidentally, the um the trip to Saudi with the king of Sawad was is what opens up the >> Yeah.

[00:14:45]>> the oil relationships.

[00:14:46]>> No, no, I know. He's taking care of taking care of energy policy even then.

[00:14:50]Yeah.

[00:14:51]>> A and and he explains that he needs congressional support for the decisions made at Yar and then also gives a warning. So, he's changed his tune now by the 1st of March 1945. He says 25 years ago, American fighting men looked to the statesmen of the world to finish the work of peace for which they fought and suffered. We cannot fail them again and expect the world to survive again.

[00:15:15]Uh and after this speech gets a standing ovation, FDR lees for the for the little white house clapperboard home in Warm Springs in Georgia to recover and he then dies on the afternoon of the 12th of April.

[00:15:28]>> Yeah. And as FDR's vice president, Harry S. Truman takes over. He's former senator from Missouri. He's 60 years old. He's Christian. He's in full full health and and uh full of vim and vigor, but had only reluctantly accepted the position of vice president FDR's urging the previous summer. He's got a reputation for for good judgment, for sound convictions, and someone who avoids infighting and factions. And crucially, he's acceptable to northern Democrats because he doesn't allow with the southern segregationists, but he's also acceptable to the southern segregationists because he has no real civil rights record and comes from a segregationist state, which is Missouri.

[00:16:10]>> Yeah.

[00:16:10]>> Truman is summoned to the White House at 5:30 p.m. that day. He goes through the back entrance, goes into goes up and sees Elellanena Roosevelt and and she tells him what's happened. And Truman is stunned into silence for a while. And then he says to turns to her and says, "Is there anything I can do for you?"

[00:16:28]And Elellanena responds, "Is there anything we can do for you? For you are the one in trouble now." I mean, what a like >> Yeah.

[00:16:39]>> He's sworn in just after 7:00 that evening as president and he's only seen FDR twice since his inauguration in January and hardly known him at all.

[00:16:49]He's also completely in the dark about most foreign policy matters. He doesn't know anything to do with the Manhattan project, which is the atomic bomb, for example. He has no idea what's going on the Eastern Front. He has no idea about the declining relations with the Soviet Union. It >> is amazing he doesn't know about the Manhattan Project, but that's because they've hidden it in um the Army engineering budget cuz he's he runs the Truman Commission, which is looking into um uh procurement and procurement spending and making sure the money's being spent properly. And even he's he's oblivious to it. It is interesting though because he he he what he doesn't do really is he doesn't change the team around him. He hangs on to Roosevelt's team. He realizes that that that basically, you know, um uh things have been unraveling since since Y.

[00:17:33]>> Yeah. And I think it's just worth just adding that that when he takes over, vast majority of people think that this is a Midwestern hick >> kind of, you know, backward boy who's going to be completely out of touch, completely out of his depth. He's going to be absolutely useless. The expectations are very very low indeed.

[00:17:50]Yeah. And he stands up. The funeral for for Roosevelt is on the Friday. He stands up on I think it's Monday the 16th of April. He gives this address to to um Congress and it is an absolute masterpiece. Yeah. It's a speech he's largely written himself. It's incredibly stirring stuff. It's incredibly humble, dignified, but determined as well.

[00:18:14]There's a definitely a kind of sort of, you know, there is a spine of steel that emerges here. He gets a standing ovation and everyone goes, "God, this guy actually I think he might be all right.

[00:18:24]You know, he's he's got the right stuff." And boy, does he ever. And it's interesting he says, "Today, America has become one of the most powerful forces for good on Earth. We must keep it so.

[00:18:32]We must now learn to live with other nations for our mutual good. We must learn to trade more with other nations so that there may be for our mutual advantage increased production, increased employment, and better standards of living throughout the world. to our mutual advantage. And it's it it's I mean it's more explicit than um uh than Roosevelt's rhetoric, isn't it? He's saying we we all stand to benefit from this. Yeah.

[00:18:54]>> He's saying it openly.

[00:18:55]>> Yes.

[00:18:56]>> And obviously if you become vice president, there's always this possibility, isn't there? And Mr. Vance, if you're watching or listening, there's always this possibility. But this this this is the >> particularly when when you're you're vice president to an old aging and infirm president.

[00:19:11]>> Yeah. Exactly. So if you are listening as as well as just like everything that's in your inbox, you've got to present it politically, which is what he's doing to Congress that he's got to be up to speed. I mean, I find it I find it completely boggling. He's absolutely amazing.

[00:19:26]>> Is there not a better way of doing this?

[00:19:28]>> He is one of the most underestimated men >> ever to take that that office. I mean, he he is just extraordinary how he grips it so quickly. Yeah. And of course, you know that speech on the 16th of April is the same day that the Soviet Red Army launches it assault on Berlin.

[00:19:42]>> Yeah.

[00:19:43]>> That cost so many men's lives.

[00:19:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. Funny. That's exactly what I was going to say. Took the words right out of my mouth. 361,000 casualties, whatever it is. And the Allies The Allies are now into southern Germany. They're into Austria. Um the Red Army surrounds Berlin and then two giant fists power into the center of the city and and meet up. Competing competing marshals doing that. Hitler then um on the 30th of April um shoots himself in his >> Yes, he does. No, he doesn't go to South America.

[00:20:11]>> Exactly. Stars fires the starting pistol for the end of the war.

[00:20:14]>> Italy first on the 2nd of May.

[00:20:16]>> Exactly. Then Berlin, German forces in northern Germany, Bavaria, Austria, total surrender to Eisenhower's headquarters in re on 7th of May, which >> if only someone had written a book about that last year, Jim, I mean it would be great if only >> and now out of >> But what's really amazing about this is a victory in Europe day, the 8th of May 1945 is Truman's 61st birthday. I mean, >> the stuff coming at him >> Hollywood.

[00:20:39]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:20:41]>> I mean, what are they doing these script writers?

[00:20:42]>> I know. and his victory address though it it's not celebratory.

[00:20:46]>> Well, I was up to so my start point for this whole project and start point for that for the bit that we wrote in victory 45 was the televised address he did of this speech and how downbeat it is.

[00:20:59]>> Yeah, they got another couple of years to go with the Japanese >> and and and at the price.

[00:21:04]>> Yeah, I think you've now come true. Our rejoicing is sobered and subdued by a supreme consciousness of the terrible price we have paid to rid the world of Hitler and his evil hand. We must work to finish the war. Our victory is only half over. When the last Japanese division is surrendered unconditionally, only then will our fighting job be done.

[00:21:23]>> You know, by British standards, the American the the Rooseveltian wartime administration is is a is a nationalist government. It's a it's a bipartisan government with Republicans and Democrats serving in the cabinet. And one of those is Henry Stimson, who's a who's a legendary figure. He's a Republican. He's a grand old man. Um he's Secretary of State for War. He visits Truman on the 25th of April. Um and tells him something that that Truman has been kept entirely in the dark from, of course. And this is the Manhanded Project. And he says, "Within 4 months, we shall in all probability have completed the most terrible weapon ever known in human history. One bomb of which could destroy a whole city." This, of course, is the atomic bomb.

[00:22:05]>> Yeah.

[00:22:05]>> 200,000 people involved in the bomb's development, but only a handful of course actually know what it is because they're kind of bit players who've just said just can you just produce x, y, and zed, this bit of glass or this bit of nickel or whatever it is.

[00:22:18]>> Anyway, that, you know, they use the bomb um to end the war and cause unprecedented levels of damage and suffering to Japanese civilians or deal protracted battle against Japan for up to 18 months more um with with untold allied casualties. That is the question.

[00:22:34]That is the nub of it, you know, and and Japan isn't backing down >> at this very point. The the battle on Okinar is still going on. Still another 600 miles to mainland Japan as it were.

[00:22:47]And and the Japanese are treating that as a home island battle basically. And hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people are killed in in that encounter.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah. Um uh and also um the chances are though of course they don't know this.

[00:23:02]Um it's only a matter of time before the Soviets develop their own bomb. Of course the Soviets are going to develop their own bomb largely because as you said 200,000 people are working on the atomic bomb. Only a handful of them know who knows it is well well Carl Fuks right um uh who who is working on the bomb is a traitor >> and John Kerros >> and John Kross. So they they know they know they know you know on the 16th of July um in New Mexico is the Trinity test which proves the bomb works and the next the following day is the Pottown Conference.

[00:23:33]>> Yep.

[00:23:34]>> Um on the western edge of Berlin which is the big three the new big the new all new reconfigured big three.

[00:23:41]>> Yeah.

[00:23:41]>> Um uh >> well not yet cuz cuz Churchill still in >> Well yeah exactly. Well yeah we well we've won we've got one change and there's another coming. Um so it's their first gathering since Yolter and since the death of Hitler. Truman is told that the bomb works as as soon as it's known and says to Stalin, doesn't he? He goes, "Well, we've got something up our sleeve." Basically, >> and obviously Stalin goes, "Yeah, yeah, whatever."

[00:24:06]>> Yeah, yeah, whatever. But knows what he but knows what it is, of course. On the 26th of July, you have the pots damn declaration announced. Um and and funny enough, you you were talking about watch when you were looking at um uh the footage of victory of Truman for Victory 45. The Potamound Declaration is that is is like such an electric document to read. I was really struck by the language in it.

[00:24:29]>> Mhm.

[00:24:30]>> Um uh >> it's pretty emphatic.

[00:24:31]>> It it's emphatic. And what's interesting about it compared to compared to simply saying um unconditional surrender, it's a the Potstone Declaration is full of escalation. uh Roosevelt's first pitches it is not accompanied by the language of prompt and utter destruction.

[00:24:46]>> No, >> it's just unconditional surrender in the the potstone declaration is like it re it >> you're going to be annihilated.

[00:24:53]>> You're going to be annihilated. We're going to bring war criminals to justice.

[00:24:56]So So it's an unconditional surrender and here are the conditions attached.

[00:24:59]The Japanese don't respond. No comment.

[00:25:01]>> No.

[00:25:02]>> Truman authorizes the use of the atomic bomb.

[00:25:04]>> Yeah. And after after it happens that he's asked, isn't it? So you know how big was responsibility and you know how bad did you feel about doing it? And he said said in all consciousness I couldn't have looked into the eyes of any mother who then gave their life of an ally, you know, an American serviceman who gave their life in the invasion of Japan had I had that bomb and not used it.

[00:25:21]>> Yep.

[00:25:22]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:22]>> That's how you justify it.

[00:25:24]>> Yeah. And and and you know, >> and I think it's worth saying that Truman is a profound Christian. You know, his his religion is very important to him. His moral compass is very very clear in his own mind. Um, and one of the reasons why he's so nervous about becoming president is because he doesn't want this burden of responsibility on his shoulder. The point is is he does it.

[00:25:42]>> So on the 6th of August, >> um, uh, the bomb is dropped on on Hiroshima. Um, it's the it's a uranium bomb, the first ever use of uranium bomb. So it's a test in itself because because the Trinity test is a plutonium weapon. Yeah.

[00:25:57]>> Um uh the most amazing uh number is that only 1.3% of the uranium in the bomb is actually successfully fished um during the detonation, >> but that's enough to kill 70 to 80,000 Japanese people instantly. It's the ultimate um uh expression of steel, not flesh.

[00:26:15]>> Yeah. And the bomb doesn't actually land. It explodes.

[00:26:18]>> It's an air burst. Yeah. You you have it burst in the air to to maximize the blast. The Japanese respond to this um by doubting it. by doubting it, not believing it's really an atomic weapon, doing everything they can.

[00:26:30]>> Well, they probably do secretly, but publicly they >> Well, well, they some of them do, some of them don't.

[00:26:38]>> We'll never know. We'll never know. And on the on the 9th of August, because because the Japanese government have not um uh surrendered basically.

[00:26:46]>> They go again.

[00:26:46]>> They go again. The Americans go again, this time on Nagasaki and 40,000 people are killed um instantly with all the radiation poisoning to come. Yeah. And then on the 15th of August they finally surrender um the unconditionally with a single condition.

[00:27:00]>> That's amazing. Um and then that's that the emperor Hirohito is allowed to stay on the throne. And >> so he does till 1989.

[00:27:06]>> Exactly. Yeah. But but that but the thing is that day there is an attempted palace coup by um uh officers in the in the Japanese army that that the army minister we don't really know which way actually he was going to jump had that coup been successful. Um Anami. So there's there's there's a whole load of whole lo of other stuff swirling around that.

[00:27:28]>> Um, but the allies accept these terms from the the Japanese, but it's American troops, not allied troops. And there's I think there's something really amazing about when MacArthur MacArthur goes to Japan after the surrender. And he's one of the most recognizable soldiers in the whole world. A single assassin in Japan could have could have um uh killed taken him out and then you've got a completely different story. But Japan, the way Japan operates is it accepts its defeat because the emperor has >> stayed in place and he said so.

[00:28:00]>> And there's a picture of Macarthur standing next to Hiito who's pint size.

[00:28:04]>> Yeah.

[00:28:05]>> Looking very small physically and metaphorically.

[00:28:09]>> It's quite extraordinary.

[00:28:10]>> It is, isn't it?

[00:28:10]>> Yeah.

[00:28:11]>> And the war's over.

[00:28:12]>> Yeah.

[00:28:12]>> 85 million people killed >> at least.

[00:28:15]>> Many more many millions more displaced.

[00:28:17]6 million Jews killed by the Nazis. plus a quart of quarter of all polls by the Nazis and the Soviets.

[00:28:24]>> Villages, towns, cities across Asia and in Europe in total ruins. Yeah. Britain, of course, is part of the part of the the the victory team, >> but is finished as a world power, completely bankrupt. America is the only country to come out the war richer than before. The only country in the entire planet.

[00:28:42]>> Yeah.

[00:28:43]>> You know, FDR has pulled the US out of the depression. He's transformed it into the world's leading manufacturing nation. Manufacturing output of the US dwarfs Britain and the USSR together.

[00:28:55]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:55]>> And Truman is completely committed to moving forward with FDR's postwar vision. And the only difference is that now he's going to have to navigate this without the Soviet Union. Yeah, >> we're getting here towards the Truman Doctrine, which is the kind of sort of >> the grand finale really of this epic story of visionaries.

[00:29:19]>> And so on the 13th of April, back on the 13th of April, the day after he becomes president, he's handed a foreign policy report by Edward Statinius, who's the the great steel magnet and part of the the administration. Um, and Statina says, "Russia will emerge from the present conflict as by far the strongest nation in Europe and Asia. Strong enough if the United States should stand aside to dominate Europe and at the same time to establish Heggonomy over Asia.

[00:29:47]Russia's natural resources and manpower are so great that within relatively few years, she can be much more powerful than either Germany or Japan has ever been. In other words, >> watch out.

[00:29:58]>> Watch out." And on the 21st of April, so to kind of, you know, a week later, Truman is briefed by the US ambassador to the Soviet Union, who is W. Ail Harman, very good-looking, hugely successful, multi-millionaire businessman, and smooth talker who has been the ambassador in the Soviet Union since 1941 or whatever. And he also says Stalin wants to dominate as much of Europe as possible, including Poland.

[00:30:26]You know the warning here is is that this means totalitarianism.

[00:30:30]It means autocracy. It means oppression of the masses by the few and all the rest of it.

[00:30:38]>> And you know Soviets have already proved this when they absorbed best Arabia in August 1940. Um economic planning committee announced a nationalization of all banks, credit institutions, railways, waterborne, transit facilities, you know, and it's clearly a taste of what's what's to come. Yeah.

[00:30:53]The Soviet high command, the Stavka, had even drawn up plans for invasions of France, Italy, and the Baltic Straits between Denmark and Norway in 1944. And Stalin has said to Harryman, uh, you know, it's a shame we have not had a chance to get our troops all the way to Paris, >> you know. So, the intention's there.

[00:31:10]>> Well, maybe if they'd been better at fighting and more efficient at fighting, they'd have got to Paris. I mean, so in a way, the Soviet carelessness that we talked about in a previous episode is in its own way a good thing. But but of course this is this kind of these kind of intentions this kind of chat comments like that about Paris that threatens the the the the basis of the United Nations the ideals of the United Nations which is now in place you know it's been >> it's been been mooted by Roosevelt and you know is in the process of of being properly created.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah.

[00:31:42]>> And you know suddenly there's a mass of problems abounding after the war has finished. M well yeah because because Europe's in ruins and and even the and do the do do the countries people they people think they're from even exist anymore?

[00:31:57]>> Yes. And it's very very difficult to create a permanent peace >> as we discovered you know a generation earlier.

[00:32:03]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:04]>> You know all the lessons of Versailles all those warnings from main arcanes about you know the the the working classes of of of nations sort of putting up with only so much and all the rest of it. You know how much are people going to stand if they get the peace wrong?

[00:32:17]The peace has to be right. And yet a massive spanner in the works of this getting the peace right is the Soviet Union and its intentions. And what exactly are its intentions? What does it want to do? Is it just a buffer zone to protect the Soviet Union or is it something much more sinister and expanding than that?

[00:32:33]>> Yeah.

[00:32:34]>> And none of this is known because you can never understand quite what the because you can't trust a word that Stalin says. and and the situation's fluid and uh I mean even the fact that Poland's borders have been withdraw redrawn means that there are there are Germans displaced from what's now become Poland you know that there is no uh status quo ante um uh uh in Europe it it it's being >> yes >> being completely rewritten >> but but it's not as if you haven't got domestic problems in the USA >> exactly exactly well yeah exactly because >> because they're working on the assumption that the war is going to go into 1946 so lots of contracts have been issued Yeah. Which now aren't going to be honored. So then what happens?

[00:33:11]>> Well, and lots of servicemen are coming home.

[00:33:13]>> And there's a huge huge threat of recession in the United States.

[00:33:15]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so um Truman in order to in order to uh head this off, he proposes a 21point domestic program to Congress in early September, which is unemployment compensation, an increased minimum wage, tax reform, crop insurance for farmers.

[00:33:31]>> This is all big stuff.

[00:33:32]>> This is all and this is all big federal big state stuff, too, is this big government.

[00:33:35]>> Yeah. Traditionally, I should should also say the Republican view and traditionally up until uh um the arrival the advent of FDR in 1933, it has been low federal >> Yeah.

[00:33:47]>> federal um input, high individual input.

[00:33:50]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:51]>> You left your own the pioneering spirit.

[00:33:53]>> Single swim federal federal control over business for an additional year and federal aid to build 1 million new homes a year, which is which is your king.

[00:34:03]>> Cyclical economics here. you're putting putting money in through the government to keep things >> by ways.

[00:34:10]>> Yeah. And conservatives from both parties um oppose the measures. It's just too much in one go. What you've got though is you said you've got armaments contracts that have that have been cancelled. So Boeing lay off 21,000 people. They've not got any more B7s to build. Ford lays off 50,000 people. Um and there are then there's a consequent wave of strikes in virtually every industry. 70 thou 5,000 workers at General Motors. I mean jeepers. They walk out for nearly 3 months. 800,000 steel workers go on strike in January 1946, which is the biggest labor strike in history at the time. That's unbelievable, isn't it? And in February of 1946, Stalin announces that communism and capitalism are incompatible.

[00:34:53]>> So that is the end of the FDR dream.

[00:34:55]>> Yeah. And that and that the Soviet Union is going to carry on on a war footing.

[00:35:00]And it's it's his most aggressive statement against the West yet. And then you have Churchill with his incredibly famous speech at Fulton, Missouri.

[00:35:09]>> And this is significant because this is where Truman's from. He's not from from Fulton, but he's from Missouri. This has all been cleared beforehand. The speech has been written out. You know, they've they've had eyes on the speech beforehand.

[00:35:19]>> Yeah.

[00:35:20]>> And he comes over and this is what he says.

[00:35:22]>> Well, I mean, Churchill effectively is working as an outrider for Truman here, isn't he? Yeah. Because he's not in government anymore. lost the election in the summer of 45 and so he he can do this. He can say from Stin to the Baltic to chest in the Adriatic an iron curtain has descended across the continent. If we adhere fully to the charter of the United Nations and walk forward in sedate and sober strength, seeking no one's land or pleasure, seeking to lay no arbitrary control upon the thoughts of men, the high roads of the future will be clear, not only for us but for all, not only for our time, but for a century to come. the fact that Truman is is plugged he's that Churchill is working as an outrider for Truman here.

[00:36:03]He's saying the thing that Truman needs in the public needs in the public sphere that Truman can't say himself yet.

[00:36:08]>> Yes, >> Churchill serving that serving that purpose. This is what what he's saying.

[00:36:12]He is he's saying exactly the same things as that inauguration address that Roosevelt makes on the 6th of January 1941 saying this is what our role should be in the west. You know, we should do this. We should be the bigger people and all the rest. The difference is that now the counterpoint of that is the threat not from Nazi Germany, it's from the Soviet Union. Everyone's exhausted and everyone's going everyone's turning in inward again.

[00:36:32]>> Yeah. But what's interesting about this though, what I was going to say is that is that this is presented often presented in the narrative as Churchill doing this. Churchill says this thing about an iron curtain. It's a phrase he's coined and all this sort of thing.

[00:36:44]Whereas in actual fact, he's completely plugged into what Truman wants and needs at this point. It's it it's a it's a coordinated effort. It's not Churchill moving the dial on things.

[00:36:53]>> No, no, no, no, not at all.

[00:36:55]>> Coining a phrase and changing things.

[00:36:57]>> No, it isn't. The reason it becomes controversial is because they feel they've done the hard yards, they've done all this stuff and now they're coming come back and they're now thinking about their own needs and requirements and the strikes going on and the threat of recession, threat of unemployment and and also they've just sent all this money and cash a and and and arms and trucks and and aid to the Soviet Union and now they're saying >> this was a malevolent regime.

[00:37:24]>> We're going to have to do it all over and we're going to have to do it all over again. we're not careful.

[00:37:28]>> I think it's really important that although they might be communist, you know, Stalin is just another in a long line of autocratic dictators in Russia.

[00:37:37]>> An external enemy is a unifying principle. And then the midterms come as they always do in American politics. And Truman and the Democrats get an absolute um shoeing in the midterms, >> as they quite often do.

[00:37:48]>> Yeah. Weirdly, he seems to sort of um be stealed by this um and doubles down on this idea of a mission for global peace and prosperity. He makes his state of the union address in January 1947. He offers an intimation of what's going to be the Truman Doctrine, which is that democracy, civil liberties, and human freedoms are as important to national security as as the armed forces are.

[00:38:11]These ideas of collective security of all man, this idea of all mankind, our goal is for the collective security of all mankind. and the spirit of the American people can set the course of world history. If we share our great bounty with a warstricken people over the world, then the faith of our citizens in freedom and democracy will be spread over the whole earth.

[00:38:29]>> Yes.

[00:38:30]>> This is leading directly to the Marshall plan that I think and I know I know I know we're talking about events in 1947.

[00:38:39]We're just going to have to weather it everybody. Just going to have to deal with it.

[00:38:41]>> Just suck it up for the last bit. But but it takes us back to where we were at the start of the entire series. We started with that speech from March 1947.

[00:38:50]>> Yeah.

[00:38:51]>> Where Truman is urging Congress to agree to a bailout package for Greece and Turkey.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah. You know what's interesting about this is George Marshall, who's who who was FDR's man, right-hand man in in rebooting the American uh uh military or or booting up a new version of the American military, I think, is a fair >> Well, it has been Jimmy Burns who's been the secretary of state and he doesn't get on terrible work with Jimmy.

[00:39:15]>> Well, well, well, that's what's interesting is that George Marshall comes back into the fold. And it's there's an interesting moment.

[00:39:20]>> Yes. cuz he's he's been chief of st for those who who aren't aware of who he is, he's been he's been the most senior military figure in the United States during the Second World War. He's a he's a chief of staff. So, you know, he is the top general.

[00:39:32]>> Yeah.

[00:39:33]>> And has done a fantastic job. And he's only gets he gets appointed on the 1st of September 1939 by Roosevelt.

[00:39:38]>> Yeah. That's right.

[00:39:38]>> All the way through.

[00:39:39]>> Yeah. And and Truman says, "The more I see and and talk to him, the more certain I am that he's one the great one of the age." And what's interesting is that Marshall of course is politically um uh neutral and uh Truman in a way is he's reaching back to FDR's people. He's reaching back to FDR's cross party way of delivering this sort of thing. So >> but he's a very canny appointment not just because of his Marshall's own attributes but because of his political neutrality.

[00:40:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. and he brings in George Kennan who's who we mentioned who was who had been working at the min um the embassy in Moscow >> who's who's a Soviet expert now um and he's going to run the new policy planning staff within the state department by now they know that the the Soviets are developing um the atomic bomb that they've got guided missiles they got biological weapons and submarines because basically the the Soviets have pinched a load of German scientists and technologists >> as have the Americans >> as have the Americans but you know but but the report The Kenan overseas also points out the importance of soft power which America has in abundance through Hollywood through its modernity through its its consumables all the rest of it and feels that that soft power is important for for visually and culturally um but also that that they need to financially support democracies who are threatened and endangered by the Soviets and other uh and other autocracies which is why you we get into the situation of bailing out bailing out Greece and Turkey and that requires incredibly swift action in the US. But early in March, he's gone to Mexico to show commitment to the good neighbor policy. You know, which goes all the way back to that inauguration speech by Roosevelt back in March 1933 and he's cheered by thousands on the streets and he visits completely off his own back. He visits a monument in Mexico City which memorializes six teenagers killed in the MexicanAmerican War of 1946 to 1948. and he places a floral tribute there, a floral reef. And again, no one's asked him to do this is this is not from his advisers. He's done this this off his own back. He's learned his history. And one Mexican paper says 100 years of misunderstanding and bitterness wiped out by one man in one minute. This is the best neighbor policy.

[00:41:57]And when he's asked why he'd gone to the monument, Trouin replies, >> "Brave men don't belong to any one country. I respect bravery wherever I see it."

[00:42:04]>> God, he's good, isn't he?

[00:42:07]And he then gives that speech on the 12th of March which becomes known as the Truman Doctrine and and where he outlines that vision of America and helping people maintain their own self-determination which we began episode one with and the press react very positively. So did Congress. Um they agreed to support Turkey and and Greece with financial aid and Truman signs it into law and the package is worth $400 million which is a lot of money in those days.

[00:42:33]>> Yeah, a lot of money back then. Then Marshall visits Moscow for talks with Stalin in person and uh and and Mos, you know, and and the Soviet leadership.

[00:42:41]>> And as Marshall is talking, Stalin sits there smoking and doodling wolves heads with a red pencil. I mean, I mean, what the hell?

[00:42:48]>> Come off it. He brushes aside Marshall's concerns, tells him to be patient. So, in other words, to bugger off. Marshall now knows that the the Americans the US will have to act unilaterally because what actually the Soviets want it seems is if Europe's chaotic and impoverished then he can further extend Soviet influence into into different different European countries and you know even Italy's feeble and febrile at this point isn't he there's strong communist movement in Italy there's communist elements in France that people are worried about >> you know what's even going to happen in in the in the British French and American sector of Germany itself. You know the the other concerns around the world which is why they eventually get involved in the Korean War because of their worries about the the the spread of communism >> and what's going to happen in China. And so the the Soviets are invited to attend a a conference they and they do they do show up but then they walk out.

[00:43:46]conference organized in Paris to discuss what's officially called the European Recovery Program, but will be will be known as the Marshall Plan. But Congress then agreed to $17 billion. This package is passed into law on the 3rd of April 1948. And we've talked throughout this series about moments, you know, that the establishment to lend lease, moments that change the world, moments that are absolutely decisive and consequential in basically in expressions of American power. 17 billion in 1947 is a huge >> vast amount of money. And this is but this is this is one of the most important moments in 20th century history without a doubt.

[00:44:24]>> Mhm.

[00:44:25]>> In all the history of the world. We're the first great nation to feed and support the conquered. Our neighbors are not afraid of us.

[00:44:29]>> Yes. And he's absolutely right. And this is again I cannot stress enough just how completely radical this is. The idea that the victors are bailing out the vanquished.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah. 16 European countries are helped.

[00:44:42]>> Yep.

[00:44:43]>> But what it doesn't just do is bail those countries out. It it basically pumps up everyone's tires. It's the It's the rising tide.

[00:44:50]>> Yep.

[00:44:51]>> That raises all ships, isn't it? And that's why you get NATO being created in April 1949 is very much the log logical extension of the Marshall Plan, >> which also comes on Truman's watch, by the way.

[00:45:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. American dominance of NATO is about making sure that everyone's chiming safe and but also chiming along the way the Americans want them to.

[00:45:11]>> Yes, of course.

[00:45:13]>> But but but the deal it is amazing that after this catastrophe after this series of catastrophe, decades of of financial disaster and calamity and destruction and loss of life and all the rest of it.

[00:45:24]1948 to 1942 is the period of fastest growth ever in European history.

[00:45:30]>> Yeah. And industrial productivity grows by 40%. Food production surpasses pre-war levels thanks to the rapid increase in mechanization and new tech much of which has been developed during the war. Of course, the rubble is cleared. Poverty and starvation start to ease and and the Marshall plan also has massive financial benefits for the US.

[00:45:52]Make no mistake because as Europe recovers, more markets emerge. Uh and that is good news for American manufacturers. So in the US GDP is 200 billion in 1940. It's 300 billion in 1950. It is 488 billion in 1960.

[00:46:11]>> Part of the whole point of NATO is you're protecting that market. And it is about being the dominant partner.

[00:46:16]>> Yeah.

[00:46:17]>> You know, you you this is the this is the thing I think that has maybe been lost on along the way by certain parties lately.

[00:46:24]>> Well, very possibly. Uh um but but but it's interesting because I think just to go back to the four freedoms um that Roosevelt announces in that state of the nation address in in January 1941, they are part of the kind of the mythology of the post-war America. This benign superpower which it's not interested in imperialism. And they're also the the four freedoms have also been immortalized by Norman Rockwell. And for those who don't know Norman Rockwell, he's this amazing artist. He he he was a sort of almost a cartoonist but also a known for his kind of photographic realism and he would do all these front covers on the picture post. That's where he made his name. But he wanted to help in the war effort. So offered to to illustrate the four freedoms and they're amazing pictures. I mean, you might, you know, Norman Rowell is not everyone's bag, but they are amazing pictures and they absolutely represent not the cutting edge of of America, but but the kind of the folksy American dream of security, of consumer wealth, of where everyone's got enough to eat. There's one of them is is you know freedom from want is a it's it's a family around the around the Thanksgiving day table with the huge turkey come plump breasted turkey coming on and all the rest of it. It's it's such a kind of contrast to the bleakness and repression of the societies behind the iron curtain of their kind of you know monochrome >> tower blocks and starzy and KGB and you know and all the rest of it. there is this sort of mainstream consciousness I think that the Soviet Soviet communism is is repressive and and browbeating um as Nazism and fascism and very much the new enemy and of course you know this is the period in which you know in the ' 50s and late 40s and 50s that the cold war is underway you know you have the Berlin blockade um with the Berlin airlift liberating that in 1948 to to to 1949 then you have the Korean War you know and there's other other postwar settlements that are ratified in 1945 and in 1947 there's a general agreement on tariffs and trade the GAT which bans bar barriers stying international trade signed by 23 democratic countries. Um and of course the GAT is renamed the World Trade Organization in 1995 which is in many ways becomes the undoing of the modern United States with that entry of China into into the WTO in 1999.

[00:48:56]Economic crisis leads to political upheaval which in turn makes war more likely. Germany's fate at the end of the first world war is that the economic crisis that follows um and the political upheaval that follows then catalyzes everything and creates creates the second war of the of the 20th century second world war. If you turn that on its head, um, uh, economic prosperity and international collabor international collaboration through trade, they foster one another and they make peace peace far more likely. Make it >> and serving.

[00:49:29]>> Exactly. And they make it much harder to go to war and they nurture democracy.

[00:49:33]People will argue with that. I mean, this is the thing is is there are plenty of people who will argue with that. And also a thing we have talked an awful lot about in this series. It's about an American power. America. This is a story of American hegammony which obviously to a lot of people is an unpalatable prospect. But this is what happened.

[00:49:48]This is what happened and this is how it happened and this is how the people who laid out that that course of events and policy did it in that in that time. So even if you're one of those people who because because lots of people do not like American power and do not like American he and didn't before the current crew came to power. Let let's be honest about that. You know, in a way, Donald Trump is acting out the thing that people have always said America is like. This is how America responded to the crisis of the middle portion of the of the 20th century.

[00:50:21]>> Yeah. And you know, and it's not it's not that FDR and Truman aren't without flaws. And you know, one has to remember that FDR had a massive role in the interament of 120,000 Japanese Americans, for example, Executive Order 90066 in February 1942. But I think it is also true that both are compelled by a profound sense of duty and dedication to prosperous global democ democracy and you know the hallmarks are obviously capitalism and free trade low tariffs and good neighborliness and and profound sense of Christian morals. You know, we live in a much more secular times these days, but they have a moral backbone.

[00:50:59]And I would say both of them, you know, for all the Machavelian ruthlessness of of Roosevelt, he still is is compelled by that by that moral backbone. And so too is is is Truman. And you know, these are fundamentally profoundly good people, I think. And you know, those lessons need to be learned because, you know, here we are. We've you know, in the first years of this century, we had economic crisis caused by war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then we had the 2008 financial crisis again completely self-imposed just as the Wall Street crash was in 1929. Um since then we've had the pandemic global trade wars blah blah blah blah blah you know it's not good and politics is disrupted the economies are disrupted. You know that that stability that that vision that that you know that that idea that that economic prosperity and international collaboration protects and nurtures democracy that is slightly being tested.

[00:51:54]Um, not even slightly, very much being tested.

[00:51:57]>> Right now, we should lead with leave with that that amazing line that Truman says to the press in October 1947 when he's asked whether he's going to get credit for the Marshall Plan. And he says, >> "I'm not doing this for credit. I'm doing it because it's right. I'm doing it because it's necessary to be done if we're going to survive ourselves." And the story also goes in the Oval Office.

[00:52:20]He said, "We're going to name it after you, George, cuz they all hate me." But the point is he's not he's not looking for personal glory. He's doing he's doing it because he's the right it's the right thing to do.

[00:52:28]>> I I I what I love though is that these people are are a complex nuanced people grappling with uh stuff no one would ever want to have to deal with and they come up with complex nuanced ways of dealing with it. FDR's political skill set, his ability to basically please enough people to get through stuff that's incredibly radical.

[00:52:53]Actually, NATO is 10 years after a completely isolationist America. the the way the Soviets have behaved, the way the Nazis behaved before that and drove events and drove drove um the situation that Roosevelt was trying to manage is one thing, but the fact that these I mean these people are extraordinarily interesting for this cuz at any stage in this Roosevelt could have gone this is too difficult. I I have an isolationist country. We we keep saying this on this podcast Americans went to America to get away from Europe. The the lesson of the First World War is that you you intervene in Europe. Um maybe you were tricked into it by Pidius Albian and anyway the settlement afterwards has failed and hasn't worked. You just we'll just walk away. We want nothing more to do with this. And Roosevelt as an American domestic politician would be completely within his boundaries of action to do that. But he but he doesn't.

[00:53:46]>> That's because he's a visionary. He sees the bigger picture.

[00:53:48]>> Yeah. Wilson was a visionary but was in politically incapable of pulling off his vision >> and he was too self-righteous.

[00:53:54]>> Well Well, exactly. But but Roosevelt was Roosevelt was smart enough to know >> a political acumen not to fall down that trap >> and to offer offer offer his vision to a coalition of people rather than just the people that necessarily were going to agree with him on the business side, the moral side, the strategic side, the political side, the military side. He was able to answer all of those things politically, delivered all and that that is really interesting. and then that you should get Truman along after him who's capable of the same political trick um or or skills, whatever you want to call it, is absolutely amazing and what makes these people so compelling to think about. Thanks everyone for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this uh series, The Visionaries. If you want to absolutely um uh uh soak yourselves in this, then go and buy James' book, The Visionaries.

[00:54:41]Um you can buy it in Kindle format for on your road when you're on the road.

[00:54:44]You can buy yourself a hardback um for leaving on the coffee table so that people can consider what a well- read person you are. You can get the audio audio book if you got a dog to walk um listen to the audio book version that that I read. Um uh and it's so much food for thought in so many different directions like so much of the fascinating topic of the Second World War.

[00:55:04]>> And don't worry, the Second World War is absolutely central to the whole thing.

[00:55:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, so this is this is all about the Second World War and it's about wider cont.

[00:55:14]But there we are. Thanks to everyone that subscribed in order to get to the end of this as quickly as possible without the adverts who become a Patreon. Um, subscribe to our officer class Apple channel. Um, we thank you for listening. Um, the next one will be some shooting. Don't worry. Um, and probably some explosions. Don't panic.

[00:55:31]We'll see you soon. Cheerio.

[00:55:32]>> Cheerio.