Going Live on @KellyPowers Stream on the Eucharist

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[00:00:00]true Orthodox.

[00:00:01]>> Uh well, they've been on my channel before. They're going to say that they are the true Orthodox.

[00:00:06]>> So, we're going to bring up number one and then number two. And now it's a party.

[00:00:14]>> Wow. Right.

[00:00:16]>> Hello, gentlemen.

[00:00:18]>> How you doing?

[00:00:20]>> Hi, guys. How are you?

[00:00:22]>> Good. Thank God.

[00:00:23]>> I feel like I've talked to you before.

[00:00:25]>> You have talked to both of us before on Sunday. [laughter] Was it Was it Sunday? I think it was or Saturday or when was that?

[00:00:32]>> Might have been that was like last week.

[00:00:33]I know he spoke to Ryan like a month ago.

[00:00:35]>> Yeah.

[00:00:36]>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember speaking to you guys, >> Patrick. So, >> so I apologize for the other people in the background. I couldn't pass up bringing up two.

[00:00:44]>> So, both of you guys, so clarify. So, you guys are both Orthodox priests in the in the Orthodox church, right? Can you clarify that for us?

[00:00:53]>> Yeah. Um, basically, uh, Father Bonafice is an abbott. So he is um he's a monastic priest. So he's a monk. Uh I'm uh married. I have a wife and children.

[00:01:05]And so we uh we're uh kind of that's the main difference. We're both you know priests. So we're under our bishops and you know we of course the term priest comes from you know presbyteros and so elder etc. So hopefully that helps.

[00:01:21]>> Okay. And there was a question in the chat um someone in the chat wanted to ask you guys and maybe start off with it.

[00:01:29][laughter] >> Okay. And that is they want to ask you the question uh what must I do to be saved? What would you say?

[00:01:37]>> Uh okay. Who wants to take that first?

[00:01:40]You or me?

[00:01:40]>> Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

[00:01:43]>> Okay.

[00:01:44]>> And thy household. And thy household. Is that sufficient?

[00:01:47]>> Yeah. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

[00:01:49]>> All right. The debate's over. That's what that's what the scriptures say.

[00:01:52]>> Welcome to Protestantism, >> right?

[00:01:56]>> Come through opposition [laughter] things.

[00:01:58]>> Look at that. We just converted a a priest to >> Well, you guys live, folks.

[00:02:04]>> I'm still a priest. I'm sorry. There must be something else to it.

[00:02:10]>> When you when you become a Christian, you enter into a completely different world. Um and it is in some ways related to the world we know now but it is also that bridge that brace between the human world the creation and the divine. So it is a given that there are going to be things that are different um that are part of that. So in for [snorts] lack of a better word, let's say if we were to say that when you come into the new world of Christ, there are other things. There is baptism. There is the eukarist, which was kind of the topic for today, >> main topic. We're gonna get topic and and so I've heard some interesting perspectives. Um, but what it comes right down to is again it comes down to what Christ said and established as what some people refer to as an ordinance or as a mystery or as a sac sacrament. Use any of those terms but the point is it was something instituted by our lord himself for us to do and if we don't do it then we are not in obedience to him and obviously those are the things that follow from it. from this. I guess what I'm saying is we don't see Christ as um as a passive kind of victim. It's not simply like he is the door and we're walking through it and that's it and he doesn't do anything else. He he is actively in our lives just as you find in the acts of the apostles etc. telling us what to do, telling us where to go, commanding us to make the to make many of the choices that we do on um to spread his name and his glory. So I I'd like to start with that first because I'd like to establish that >> our God is an active God >> and one that actively moves us towards salvation. He's >> the God of the living.

[00:04:06]>> That's the point is that yeah God is God is the one who works. We are the one who don't work for our salvation. He's the one who works for our salvation by doing everything needed sending Christ living the perfect life sacrificing his life on on the cross and then rising from the dead. All these sort of things drawing us to himself. So then on our view would be Christ did 100% of the work needed to get us to heaven which would leave us with exactly zero works for us to do. So no sacraments for us to have to participate in for salvation. But we do still participate in communion and baptism as uh you know because we're saved. But I think if Paul is right, Paul and Silas, the apostles are right and saying believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved. You can't add extra additional good deeds, acts of obedience on as an extra requirement.

[00:04:56]Otherwise, it makes the apostle statement false.

[00:04:59]>> What does um what does Roman 5:15 say when it says by whom we have received grace and apostilhip for obedience to the faith among the nations. So he says here for obedience >> Romans 15 I would say you can either interpret that as the obedience that faith produces because I do believe if you have faith it does produce obedience or you can interpret it as u there is a call to believe the gospel and so when somebody believes the gospel they're being obedient to that call but faith in itself is not works faith is not doing good things faith is having a conviction of Christ is faithful and he has he'll fulfill his promise of giving me eternal life through his sacrifice on the cross.

[00:05:41]It's not about obedience to God's law.

[00:05:44]>> Okay. So when when Jesus said take, eat, this is my body.

[00:05:49]>> Okay. Is that is that a command or is it a suggestion?

[00:05:56]>> Um that is a command. God gives lots of commands. Go make disciples of all nations. So we are called to share the gospel but not for >> So he said as a commandment take, eat.

[00:06:06]This is my body.

[00:06:09]>> Do this. You must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

[00:06:14]>> Remember he said this is his body. You are commanded to eat it.

[00:06:20]>> What was this? What was the this? What was he holding?

[00:06:25]>> Was it bread or was he pointing to his >> bread? Jesus said took bread and eat and bless it and break it and gave it to his disciples and said, "Take, eat. This is my body." Mhm.

[00:06:36]>> Okay. So, >> yep.

[00:06:38]>> How do you take that?

[00:06:40]>> We take it and that dovetales with John chapter 6 where you know Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you. And uh therefore when he said I am the bread of life and then the people reacted to what he was saying how can this man give us his body to eat and you were not cannibals. And Jesus is saying that, you know, it's a spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words I speak into you, they are spirit in their life.

[00:07:12]And so what he was appealing to was their heavenly understanding instead of their ears being on the earth and listening to earthly things. He and taking him literally as if this is my body. You have to eat my knuckles. You know, uh he's saying obviously it's a spiritual meaning. And to that the apostles understood because people left him in John chapter chapter 6 at that moment. And then Jesus asked the apostles will you lead me too? And Peter says no Lord who else has the words of eternal life. We believe you are the son of God. And so therefore being the son of God Jesus put a spiritual emphasis on that passage where he says I am that bread of life. your fathers ate the mana and died because it was just a piece of bread. But I come that they might have life. And so therefore when I just make Huh?

[00:08:10]>> You're agreeing with us here, bro.

[00:08:11]You've come to our position. If you agree with >> Good. Good. Well, then well then how how about this?

[00:08:15]>> You hold our position, man.

[00:08:17]>> So then you when was the last time you guys went to the >> May I may I interject for one second here? I don't want you guys are doing [snorts] great and it's great. We're having a good time. I want to go back to Matthew 26 for just a moment what you brought up, Father Bonabus. Okay, you brought this up and I I really like to ask you a really sincere question. Okay, so think so pay attention what I'm asking you. Okay, so it says here in Matthew 26:26, while they were eating, Jesus took some bread and after a blessing, he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body." When he had taken up taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. For this is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my father's house." Now, in a Jewish seder, they're partaking of Passover.

[00:09:20]They're eating the bread. They're going to be eating the lamb. They're going to be drinking the wine. Jesus is partaking eating the Passover uh meal with them.

[00:09:28]And he says here that he wouldn't drink the fruit of the vine until he comes back in his kingdom. So, let me ask you a very simple question.

[00:09:38]If your interpretation of how you're understanding this that we're supposed to be actually mysteriously eating his physical type of body somehow mysteriously and drinking his blood. Can you explain to me then at the same time while Jesus is partaking with his disciples is Jesus also eating his own body and drinking his own blood here?

[00:10:07]because he's partaking with them at the same time.

[00:10:11]>> Um, my answer to that would be, Kelly, why aren't you answering the questions that were first set before you? And why are you are you diverting diverting attention to a secondary issue?

[00:10:24]>> Jesus said, "Yes, you are.

[00:10:27]>> Hold on. This is my body."

[00:10:29]>> You you quoted this. I went to it. I'm asking you a question respectfully. If what you are saying is correct, hear me out. If what you're saying is correct, then you have to be also saying that Jesus was eating his own body and drinking his own blood. Do you accept what you're claiming?

[00:10:55]>> You are saying that Jesus is eating his own body and his own blood. He's sharing them.

[00:11:00]>> Yeah. I don't think that's what the text is saying because he makes a distinction when he says take eat this is my body drink from it all of you for this is my blood but then he says but I say to you I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on like nobody denied that Christ had picked up wine and then had said this is my blood and by his declaration it so became but then he says I will not drink of this fruit of the vine because there is still wine available and he is making a reference to it I don't I don't I don't think I would disagree with you when he literally says here, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine. Notice he didn't say my blood or blood. He literally even says the fruit of the vine here. But he says blood >> from now on until so from this moment on he's no longer be drinking. But he was drinking with them before.

[00:11:49]>> So he he's saying here he's been drinking with his disciples. But from now on, he will not do it until he comes back in his kingdom. So even just that statement alone right there, he's drinking of the wine. So if that is his blood, are you saying he's drinking his own blood?

[00:12:10]>> Wait a second now. be because he's he consecrated the blood and the wine and the bread at that moment but then he said I will not drink with you of the fruit of the vine which would be unconsecrated wine there is that distinction why it doesn't say anything about him it doesn't say anything about him actually drinking the wine he just gives it to >> if you if you walk through this carefully I say to you I will not drink of the fruit of this vine from now on.

[00:12:45]So from now on at this moment now I won't but before he was >> this is the same problem that this is the same problem we have with um when people read and uh Joseph knew her not until the birth of Christ and then many Protestants make the assumption that he had >> he wasn't so are you saying as a Jewish rabbi as a Jewish leader that he wasn't eating the meal and drinking of the wine with his disciples? Is that what you're literally saying?

[00:13:12]>> No, I'm not saying that at all because he could have had So then if he was, my friend, if he was, then you have to be saying he also would then be eating his own body and drinking his own blood.

[00:13:24]>> But that's answered in verse 26. It says while they were eating, Jesus took some bread. So the assumption would be that if he had some already, there's no there's no need to say that he is going to eat his own body and bread. He gives that to his disciples, >> but he still qualifies to buy the drinking part. So you can't escape that.

[00:13:43]What are you talking about? Qualifies it by the >> after he says after he gives the cup and blesses it. Drink from it all of you.

[00:13:50]This is the blood of the covenant which is poured out forgiveness of sins. So here I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit. So he's already been drinking with them from the vine from now on until. So now he's going to be stopping. Why?

[00:14:06]>> Until when? Until I mean, it's kind of obvious from right with the passage right afterwards. He has the point.

[00:14:13]You're missing the point. No. Until when?

[00:14:17]>> Until that's not that's irrelevant. It's talking about >> No, it's not.

[00:14:22]>> You're you're you're not listening. The what I'm trying to share with you is he was drinking it with them presently then. He won't drink of it now until he comes back in his kingdom. That would be his second coming. The point though was is he was drinking it with them. So if your interpretation is right, he's drinking his own blood.

[00:14:44]>> I think Kelly >> I I think that that's that's really stretching the reading, but more importantly, it's an introduction to him explaining that he is going to pass on and be killed because that's the whole point. He's using that as a rhetorical in a rhetorical flourish to say I won't be touching this until we're in my father's kingdom. And up until then, they have no idea what he means.

[00:15:08]>> They they're just assuming that he's they're talking about a physical kingdom. They have they have not figured out that he's going to die. He has to tell them that now.

[00:15:16]>> Well, you said they don't know what he means.

[00:15:20]>> So, hold on hold on. So if you just said right there, Father uh Joseph, so if they didn't really understand what he means, that's interesting because nowhere from Acts to Revelation, did they ever teach that you must believe that when you're partaking of eating of the bread that you're actually eating Jesus or that when you're partaking of the wine, you're actually drinking his blood?

[00:15:42]>> In John chapter 6, which is qualify. So in John 6 is before he's crucified. He's not resurrected yet either. Correct. So in the New Testament church, none of his disciples ever taught your interpretation that one must believe that to be saved.

[00:15:58]>> No. I think that >> Okay. So, so Kelly, are you done?

[00:16:03]>> He was going to eat the Passover himself. He says, "Go and prepare the Passover for us that we may eat of it."

[00:16:09]So Jesus was definitely participating eating the meal. It says that Luke 22% verse 8. And so he would have had the wine, he would have had the bread and therefore is a problem under your view.

[00:16:19]But I think this all comes back to bonafice.

[00:16:21]>> That's right. That's a good point. Let's highlight that real quick, Ryan.

[00:16:24]>> Jesus said to Peter and John, go and prepare prepare Passover for it so that we Jesus is included in it. We may eat of it.

[00:16:32]>> Of course. Exactly.

[00:16:34]>> Um but I think it go comes back to Bonafice saying, well, this is a command of Jesus, but remember Jesus gives lots of different commands all throughout the gospels. Just because something's a command. We think commands of Jesus are very important. That does not make it necessary for salvation.

[00:16:48]>> But you don't but you're saying then you're saying that you can disobey his command then. That's what you're saying.

[00:16:53]And I can still be saved, but I can disobey his command.

[00:16:56]>> He commanded you to eat. Eat of his body. Well, what he's saying, let's look at what Jesus is saying. Jesus is saying, "Eat of my body." And that's a command.

[00:17:05]>> And you're saying, "I'm not going to obey it."

[00:17:08]>> No, that's not what I'm saying. Don't misrep what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we >> I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying.

[00:17:13]>> No, listen to what I say. We should obey all the commands of Jesus. But just because Jesus gives a command does not make that command a necessary thing for me to be saved. Jesus tells me I've got to be perfect as much as my heavenly father is perfect. You know, I got to do unto others as they always do unto me.

[00:17:30]And we should be doing that. But if you failed to do that, Bonafice, does that mean that you're going to hell because you have not always been perfect as your heavenly father is perfect?

[00:17:39]>> No. It says that there's a problem here because it says I'm being disobedient like Romans chapter 1 15 said that the you were the apostles were bringing people into the obedience of the faith.

[00:17:50]So uh Jesus said if you love me you'll keep my commandments.

[00:17:54]>> So um it means to say that one I'm not obedient and two I'm not loving them.

[00:17:58]>> But in Romans you'll end up you'll end up by faith not by keeping what you're claiming. I want to bring you back to John 50 though Father Bonavus. So, do you believe it's on the screen it says this because this is what you've been trying to go to. Let's go to John 6 and hammer it out. Jesus said, "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven so that one may eat of it." So, you believe Jesus here is claiming that one must eat physically some type of mysterious of his body in your interpretation to eat of it so they can be have eternal life.

[00:18:32]Correct. He who uh unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you.

[00:18:39]>> That's what Jesus said, right? So you take that literally. Correct.

[00:18:42]>> I I take Jesus at his word. I'm I'm being obedient to that. Go ahead.

[00:18:46]>> The answer is yes. Correct.

[00:18:49]>> Yes.

[00:18:49]>> I thank you. So do you take the second part here at the end here that you're not going to die? Is that physically die too? So if you partake of eating his flesh, drinking blood, are you not going to physically die as well?

[00:19:03]>> No. You see the the distinction he is making is the difference between earth and heaven.

[00:19:10]>> Are we listening only to things on the earth? Let me well let me give you an example. Okay. Nicodemus, do I have to?

[00:19:16]You must be born again. He says, do I have to go back into my mother's womb?

[00:19:20]Why did he say that? I'll tell you why.

[00:19:21]because in his rabbitic thinking, their thinking was all on earthly things on earth. And so Jesus said, "You must be born again from heaven." And so Nicodemus finally got the point. And the people in John 6 did not get the point except the disciples got the point.

[00:19:40]>> So that's what he's driving at. And this thinking is rabbitic. So basically, you guys are promoting uh uh uh Judaizing in your theology. You're Judaizers.

[00:19:51]anywhere close. Here's the problem.

[00:19:53]You're siding with the unbelieving crowd. Bonafice, your position is like the unbelieving crowd who interpreted him literally and like this is crazy. I got to eat his flesh. That's a bit strange. And they left him. But the ones who didn't interpret him literally were the disciples, the 12 who didn't want to leave. And Peter says, "You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed and come to know that you are the holy one of God."

[00:20:15]>> I'm kind of amazed.

[00:20:16]>> Had eternal life by believing, not by eating.

[00:20:18]>> Okay, here's the thing. I'm kind of amazed because you've literally reversed the meaning of what the apostles are saying in John 6:54. It is a proof of >> This is not the apostle. This is Jesus.

[00:20:28]>> I'm talking about when when the apostles say, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

[00:20:33]>> Oh, that's Peter.

[00:20:34]>> Somehow, but somehow Ryan has interpreted this to mean that that's because we've accepted a watered down symbolic meaning as opposed to what our Lord >> said. You have the words of eternal life which is qualified by here. It's not the spirit who it's the spirit who gives life, not flesh. So Peter recognized he wasn't speakally. He was speaking spiritually.

[00:20:55]>> But here's the problem. The problem is that before he says that and you you kind of skipped over the you do not want to go away also, do you? Because so many people walked away because they were horrified by the teaching that they that Christ was saying you had to eat his flesh. He's being emphatic here. He's not denying it or symbolizing it away.

[00:21:14]He's being emphatic. And that's why you He's actually said, "Now after I've explained this more clearly that my words are actually spiritual, not physical. Are you going to leave too?"

[00:21:24]And he said, "No, Lord, where can we go?

[00:21:26]You have the flesh that I must eat and the blood that I must drink to get eternal life."

[00:21:31]>> The lynch pin is in verses 58 to 60 where Christ changes the word from uh changes the word from thagon to >> Yeah, exactly. See, I don't even have to touch the whole point.

[00:21:43]>> So, should they have done that? Should they have gone up to his flesh and eaten him? That's the question. Cuz Peter hasn't eaten of Jesus in a literal sense here. So under your view, Peter is being a bit disobedient here by not going and biting biting Jesus' flesh. But he already knows he's got eternal life.

[00:22:00]Because verse 47, Jesus said, "Whoever believes has eternal life, can know he has eternal life because he believes."

[00:22:07]>> But what you're missing here is that he just says something that was really scandalizing. Now, he didn't say, "Okay, guys, come bite me." What he was saying was, okay, you have to partake of my flesh. You have to eat my flesh and drink my blood. He then explains it in the last supper, which is why the last supper is not referenced in the Gospel of John. This is years away from the last supper. Years away. So, what were they supposed to do here? If they wanted to have eternal life, do you believe we could die? Play by play. Do you think Wait, did you not think >> this is still years away from Yeah, this is still years away from the last supper >> after the resurrection. All of the This is years away. This is of the of the feeding of the 5,000.

[00:22:47]>> They were written after the resurrection.

[00:22:49]>> Well, that but that's exactly my point.

[00:22:51]He's trying to say that because this is written earlier in the life story of Christ. Chronologically, it is >> right. And chronologically, the point is the point is the reason it's preserved in the way it is is to establish what the meaning is in the synops in the synoptics. That's what I'm trying to get. Could Peter have eternal life now without eating his flesh and blood?

[00:23:13]>> He at this point he doesn't at this point Peter as we know he's kind of always been the slow one in the scriptures is like he doesn't know what he means but he knows to trust in Christ and that he has the words of eternal life even if he doesn't yet understand it.

[00:23:27]>> It was prophetic. He says that >> it was prophetic.

[00:23:30]>> They're waiting on the prophecy.

[00:23:32]>> Believe it's possible.

[00:23:33]>> The prophecy will be fulfilled later.

[00:23:35]Okay, past on and he said whoever believes has eternal life. So according to the words of Jesus because Peter believes he has eternal life already now without taking part in the Eucharist.

[00:23:45]That shows your interpretation of John there's no there he has eternal life. He believes that >> he believes that Christ has the teachings of eternal life. And might I add I heard something very interesting earlier. I forget who said it, but the question was posed that if you eat of the flesh of Christ, does that mean that you are automatically immortal? And I would argue yes, that is part of the reason why we have icons of saints like the ones on the wall here because we believe that all the people in the picture are alive and we believe they are alive and they parttook of the eukarist of you know Christ in the center. So it ties together is the point. When Jesus When Jesus said, "I am the living bread." When Jesus said, "I am the living bread," we're talking about life. And if you take that living Christ out of the Eucharist, it's dead.

[00:24:41]Your dead letter. And when you pronounce it to be a memorial, you're killing Christ right there with your dead letter.

[00:24:49]>> It's It's I've been pretty quiet for like the last 15 minutes, guys. Let's give me let's give me just a minute here. Okay.

[00:24:57]So, I want to just point out a couple things because it's been that long since I've been able to speak. The first thing is that if Jesus is speaking literally, then the only way I can get saved is by consuming his flesh and blood. So, I'm not saved and then I eat his flesh and blood and then I am saved. The problem with that is it's not taught in the early church. Justin Martyr says this about the Eucharist. And this food is called among us, the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake, but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoyed. In other words, unless you're already a believer, already part of the fellowship with Christ, this is in chapter 66 of the first apology just right after that. He says, "For not as common bread and common drink, do we receive these, but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation. So likewise, we have been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of his word and from which our flesh and blood by transmutation are nourished is the flesh and blood of Jesus who was >> Let me finish. We've already so I don't know if you were listening, but we were dealing with this with Alex. The transmutation there is not transubstantiation. It's not the literal wafer and the wine turning into >> I don't want to be I don't not to not to be kind of rude here Patrick but in actuality what you presented to Alex was chapter 67 which talked about the weekly worship of the scriptures. Skip it. He read 66 in response because you were implying that didn't really have >> and then I corrected him in 66. Maybe you missed that part. Maybe you missed that part. the the transmutation happens when we're digesting it. That's where the transmutation that's when the elements change in transmutation. No, that's reading the text for what it is.

[00:26:51]>> What it's saying is what it's saying is that the person has changed through the reception of the Eucharist. Nobody is denying that. But the assumption is if you read the early church, even like the dedicay, if you go read the dedicay chapter 9 and chapter 10 of what it talks about the early church, the early Christians, right? like what what Patrick is trying to bring up about Justin Martyr is when people are partaking of the Eucharist or communion, they're already Christians. They're already >> Yeah, we know, >> right? So, so it's it's kind of a a mute point where look, they're already Christians. They already have eternal life. They're partaking of this now as an act of worship unto >> obedience >> now. And worship.

[00:27:35]>> Yeah. But what's interesting still in this whole conversation is the previous verses before verse 50 which again you know respectfully this is this is a the the checkmate unless you can somehow come up with >> I have to go so I'm just going to say I have to go because I'm about to start a stream so I have to say appreciate the time but I do have to run off. Good talking to you >> and no problem. Good see you again.

[00:27:59]>> God bless you guys.

[00:28:00]>> All right Ryan, thank you for being here. Keep in touch buddy. All right.

[00:28:04]Lord bless. All right. Well, now it's even for you. Now that it's now you know both verse 50 remember that a man may eat thereof and not die. It's a mystery.

[00:28:16]It's a Christ in the substance as a mystery.

[00:28:20]And he says take eat this is my body.

[00:28:23]That is an act of obedience. And your faith requires you to obey and trust the Lord in his word. And uh therefore, and the scriptures do teach, Paul says, you know, it's not the the bread, the body of Christ, is not the drink of blood, the the blessing of the blessing. And so therefore, it is in the scriptures. It's in the gospels. And you're called to obey. If you disobey, you're taking Christ and calling it a memorial. And that's taking the mystery out of the substance. And it's a dead wafer.

[00:28:56]>> Therefore, it's just like mana. You'll eat it, you'll die. There's no life in it. But there's life in Christ in the Eucharist.

[00:29:02]>> You breathe for a second.

[00:29:03]>> So you need to get that life.

[00:29:06]>> It's not a mystery. In John 11, when he's talking to Martha, listen to what Jesus said.

[00:29:11]>> Hello.

[00:29:11]>> Not a It's not a mystery.

[00:29:13]>> I lost my audio.

[00:29:15]>> Jesus said, >> that happens to him a lot. He may have actually lost his audio.

[00:29:18]>> Yeah. So Jesus said, I will say it again, but I don't want to stop my >> I'm gonna I'm gonna have to reboot.

[00:29:23]>> All right. I'll be continue.

[00:29:26]>> So all right, >> I'll bring it back. When he comes back, I'll say it again. So in John 11, in John 11, Jesus said to Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live even if he dies."

[00:29:41]>> So that's talking obviously physical.

[00:29:44]Everyone who lives and believes in me will never There he's got him back here.

[00:29:49]All right. Can you hear us now?

[00:29:50]>> I hear you. Can you hear me?

[00:29:52]>> Yes, sir. All right. All right.

[00:29:54]>> All right. Yeah. When someone goes off, I lose it sometimes. So I'm back. Thank you. It's okay. It's okay. So, what I was saying to you a minute ago, respectfully, it's not a mystery. And hear me out, okay? In John 5:50, when he says, you know, this is the bread came down from heaven and you will not die.

[00:30:12]It's not a mystery. He's not talking physically. He's talking spiritually.

[00:30:16]Look at what he says here to Martha in John 11. And he says it in John chapter 8 as well. I can go there in 8:51. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live if even if he dies. That's talking physically. Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Now, he can't be talking physical death here because we're all going to physically die at some point. She He says, "Do you believe this?" She said to him, "Yes, Lord. I have believed that you are the Christ, the son of God, even he who comes in this world." And let me just show you my other references so I'm not just blowing smoke. In John chapter 8, Jesus is having another conversation.

[00:30:59]This is a debate he had with the Jews.

[00:31:01]And look what he says here in this this little interesting conversation. He says in John 8:51, debating with the Jews, he says, "Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

[00:31:15]>> Now again, that's not physical. He's obviously talking spiritual. So to bring it back home, what I was trying to share before in a very simplistic way and I'll end with this is if one is trying to interpret John 8:50 from a literal point of view, but then all of a sudden shift gears at the last couple of words, you're basically doing injustice. You're doing Jesus here, right? So you have to be consistent. If it's going to be teaching literal the first part, it has to be lit the last part. But we know the last part isn't literal because we are all going to physically die. Therefore, as we read earlier, these words that Jesus are teaching are spiritual, not literal.

[00:32:00]>> Here's what Here's where I I gonna disagree a little bit, Kelly.

[00:32:04]>> I'd love to hear your thought. Give me Give me a rebuttal. I'd love to hear your >> uh if we go to Acts chapter 7.

[00:32:10]>> Okay.

[00:32:12]>> And you know, I think >> understand my my argument what I'm trying to present, right? I understand your argument and see if you encapsulate it and see if I can if I get it right.

[00:32:22]Okay. So, basically, yeah. Um, what you're saying is that effectively because we know that people physically die, we know that Christ's references to people not dying may very well be symbolic.

[00:32:35]>> Okay. I would argue based on act seven and if we can start on uh versus uh let me see here uh versus 51 to the end. Um it you know yeah that's perfect you know that we can start at the 51. Yeah, you see now this is the martyrdom the the proto martr Steven the first martyr um you know the one of the seven deacons and he tells them that they're stiff necked uncircumcised and hearts on and so forth um and then they put him to death of course they were cut to the quick begin nashing their teeth at him and he says but being full of the Holy Spirit he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God and he said behold I see the heavens opened up and the son of man standing at the right hand of God. But they cried out with a loud voice and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him. And the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. Then they killed him. Okay. But the point is he says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." He sees God, the father, son, and holy spirit come. He tells Jesus to receive the spirit. Jesus receives his spirit. Um, and it says, "Having said this, he fell asleep." And this sleep is another thing that we often find um in St. Paul's epistles. For example, uh when talking about receiving the Eucharist unworthily, at one point it says, "Many of you have fallen ill and many of you sleep." So, we understand that when they're saying sleep, they mean dead physically, but they don't mean dead fully because we believe in eternal life and in the resurrection. So, that would be my counter. I I realize that we could probably disagree on that, but that's if you notice it all ties together like the saints and the >> Yeah. Let me just give you one quick comment on that. You said so I understand Acts 7. The difference though is that it doesn't really still address the issue of say John 6:50, John 8:51 or John 11 verses 25- 27 where Jesus is quite emphatically clear in those other two places where if you hear my word, believe my word, even though you may physically die, you're not going to taste death. Right? So that's obvious.

[00:34:48]So all that I'm trying to present to my argument and what I'm trying to say to my defense is if you take the literal of John 650 as as many like to do orthodox Catholic but you don't take the last part you're doing it injustice because that goes against what we see. But if if if I use the word if right caveat if what me and Ryan people like myself are actually understand this correctly that Jesus is actually speaking metaphorically symbolically pointing to his death in the resurrection here and that they will not taste death there that makes much more sense because when we become saved we are >> your mic is going >> something's wrong with your mic sounding >> I'm having a hard time hearing too Um, I I'll say this is that we do need to remember to get back to when Jesus said, "Take, eat. This is my body." Are we going to obey him or not obey him?

[00:35:43]>> I think you're disobeying him. And I'll tell you why. Because Jesus said, "Take and eat. Now worship and adore, not consecrate and make me turn into the flesh and blood of Jesus for for the forgiveness of sins or for the prevention of sins." I think he literally said, "Take and eat." And the it that he was talking about was the last supper that we are to do in remembrance of him, which was a Jewish Passover seder. Well, no, but he the term he uses for memorial there is anomnesis or a perpetual memorial.

[00:36:08]>> Sure. Which does not mean no. Greek tries to tell you that it means that you're you're going back and you're reliving it. Just because you're recalling it doesn't mean you're physically reexperiencing it. When they did that in Exodus, they weren't physically experiencing it. They were remembering it.

[00:36:25]>> But he said, "Take, this is my body.

[00:36:29]This is my body. It's a mystery.

[00:36:32]>> It is written in stone. Do >> I can hear you. Do Do you understand English grammar? The first sentence says, "This is my body. Eat." It's a commandment.

[00:36:44]>> All right. Before we go, I do want to address something, but I This is actually great because what showing we have, look, we have very different views and mindset that are on display right now. And what I'm saying by that is a lot of what you guys are saying is very rationalist and that's okay because rational people generally sound sane.

[00:37:04]What we are saying we know I mean it's Teroulian who was famous for saying uh or I believe because it is absurd. So that we know that the things we're saying don't sound totally rational. I'm seeing many comments in the comment section right now where people are saying, "Well, you guys are cannibals then." Um, unfortunately, unfortunately, that was actually a charge against Christians in the first three centuries, that they were cannibals because they'd hear them say that they were partaking of the body and blood of Christ and assume they were literally eating his corpse that they had hidden away somewhere.

[00:37:46]>> That doesn't prove the Christian doctrine, though. That just proves that people misunderstood what they were doing. Well, no, but I the point is they didn't correct it. We have the records of what they said and they would simply confirm, yes, we parttook of the body and blood of Christ, which would get them killed.

[00:37:59]>> So, >> well, let me make a quick comment because I got I got cut off a second ago. I apologize for my audio. It's okay. So, as long as you can hear me better now.

[00:38:07]>> So, what I was saying before, all that I'm trying to present here is a is a very simple simple logical argument.

[00:38:17]If Jesus is talking to Martha, as St. bottom says, "You know, hey, do you know how to read?" Or something like that. He says that very funnily. That was pretty funny. Um, yeah, I actually do know how to read. Sometimes I mispronounce words.

[00:38:26]I do mess that up, but I do know how to read. Uh, Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and life. He who believes in me will live even if he dies. Now, he's talking physically dying, but you will still live. That's spiritually, right? Yeah. Now the reason why I highlight that again is because when we go back to John 6, this is important.

[00:38:49]This is so important. If we see as I mentioned earlier, this is the this is the argument Jesus said it's the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I've spoken to you are spirit and life. And like earlier what we were saying here is Peter said you have the words of eternal life. So Peter got it.

[00:39:13]Peter understood what Jesus is teaching here. So going back to verse 50, if Jesus is teaching you must believe that you're eating his flesh and drinking his blood in some literal sense, then he's also saying that we're not going to literally die. And >> nobody has an argument for that. You can't object that no matter what anyone tries to do. Right.

[00:39:36]>> But we're not going to but we're not going to die. That's my point.

[00:39:38]>> You do physically die.

[00:39:39]>> You will die physically. And but you get that back. That's why we believe in the >> It doesn't matter. You're going to die.

[00:39:44]>> Not the same body. Not the same body.

[00:39:45]>> It's a better body. It's a slightly >> but but you're going to still die. And that's my whole point. And you and uh Father Joseph, you said somebody was saying something about you uh being cannibals or something like that, right?

[00:39:58]>> Yeah. That that's in the chat.

[00:40:01]>> Let me ask you a simple question. This this is this is related to the Eucharist. It's related to communion.

[00:40:06]This is in Leviticus chapter 17. This is what's known as the Torah. I know you know that for anyone listening. This is what's written by Moses. He says, "If any man from the house of Israel or from the aliens who sojourns among you who eats any blood, any blood, >> I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people."

[00:40:29]>> Okay.

[00:40:30]>> If Jesus is teaching that we're supposed to be eating his blood, why would he go against the law of Moses?

[00:40:37]I don't think that he was going against the law of Moses. Um, if he's for the fulfillment of the law of Moses and he is talking about his spiritual body and blood, then I don't think that it is a violation.

[00:40:50]>> Spiritual or is it physical though? See, if you're eating his blood, is it spiritual or is it literal? It's mystical.

[00:40:58]>> I I have a weird answer to that one because it is mystical.

[00:41:01]>> I can't wait for a weird answer. I I love it. Give me a weird answer.

[00:41:04]>> Okay. Now, you've noticed, I'm sure, in discussing about communion, you'd have heard the term host.

[00:41:10]>> Um, that the Eucharist is a host for Christ. Now, this is interesting that he chose bread and wine because both of those are living foods as in they are physically alive. They have yeasts in them. Both the bread and the uh wine do.

[00:41:29]And so in that sense they can be possessed if you will by God because they are living foods. So the point I'm trying to make is is it now I'm not even going to go into the Eucharistic miracles that turn into blood or anything because that that's a whole different story. I heard some debating about it and I don't even want to talk about wafers.

[00:41:50]>> Let me just ask you a simple question.

[00:41:51]Okay. It's not it's >> what does any blood mean? Well, >> it means it means any living blood, any normal.

[00:42:00]>> Well, let's let can I give a verse here?

[00:42:01]You're in the book of Leviticus chapter 17, right? And verse 11. For the life of the flesh is in the blood.

[00:42:08]>> Yeah.

[00:42:09]>> Okay.

[00:42:10]>> It's because uh life is in the blood.

[00:42:12]Now, life is in life is in the blood of Jesus. So, he's restricting any other blood but his own. You see, you can't just be drinking blood. But you have my blood in the form of a mystery. It's real, but it's also mystical.

[00:42:28]>> Now, he has a prerogative to say that.

[00:42:30]>> I I don't think we have the liberty to all of a sudden make stuff up to try to agree with our >> theology. Kelly Kelly, life is not in the blood of Jesus. Life is in God. God is life. So, >> Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you." What do you mean to say life isn't in the blood of Jesus? He just said it.

[00:42:48]>> You don't agree with him.

[00:42:50]>> Jesus also said that the gospel is the power of God into his salvation for all who believe. I'm sorry, but you just admitted you don't agree with Jesus.

[00:42:58]>> You just admitted you >> just admitted you don't agree with Jesus.

[00:43:01]>> We can play this game.

[00:43:02]>> What he's saying, Listen, listen, listen. What he's saying is he's not agreeing with your interpretation and you're not agreeing with what we're sharing. That's >> Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life." What more? That's not my interpretation.

[00:43:14]That's his words.

[00:43:15]>> Kelly, can I read Augustine?

[00:43:17]>> Can I read Augustine?

[00:43:18]>> Hold on. Hold on. Let's let's let's hold St. Father Bonafice to the fire on that one. Okay. So, unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood, you don't have eternal life. Correct.

[00:43:33]True.

[00:43:34]How come Matthew didn't teach that when he wrote down his gospel? How come Luke didn't write that?

[00:43:42]How come Mark didn't write that? If that's such a prominent important teaching, how come none of those guys wrote that down? your interpretation a person has to do to be saved >> because in those things >> don't let him let him answer. Let him answer. He's the one that's let him answer.

[00:43:59]>> Well, I'll say this. The scriptures cannot be broken. So, if it says it in one scripture, it goes for all. You can't divide them. And you're trying to divide them. No, >> you're trying to divide the scriptures.

[00:44:10]Matthew, >> Luke, Mark, Acts through Revelation, not a single place anywhere else other than the your interpretation of John 6 teaches anything close to what you're claiming. So, we have to have that belief forced upon us because your interpretation of John 6 where Matthew, Luke, and Mark don't teach it. Acts through Revelation, this is never taught as a requirement to be saved. But we have to accept your interpretation of John 6 to be saved. Is that right?

[00:44:41]>> The But the purpose of the gospel of John was different in some ways than the purpose of the synoptic.

[00:44:47]>> What did John write at the end of John?

[00:44:48]He says, "I've written these things that you believe on Jesus Christ and eat his flesh and drink his blood and you'll have eternal life." Is that what he said?

[00:44:57]>> Um at the end, he didn't teach that, did he? Well, I I would say that who are you to second guessess what the Gospel of John is saying? You sound very rabbitic. You [laughter] see, no.

[00:45:10]>> You're you're Judaizing the scriptures.

[00:45:12]>> Can Can I tell you what Augustine said?

[00:45:14]>> Because you cannot separate Jesus from the Gospel of John and the other gospels. You can't do it.

[00:45:19]>> The ending of the gospel.

[00:45:20]>> So, we should believe you.

[00:45:23]>> So, we should believe you and not the other witnesses of scriptures. Okay, I got it.

[00:45:27]>> Wait, wait. No, no. You're you're dividing the scriptures obviously and Kelly said obviously eat this is my body >> obviously >> I'd like if I may throw something in I realize that I know that um Patrick wants to go to Augustine uh what about Ignatius of Antioch because if we go to him >> and yeah and we look in um chapter 7 to this of >> so one quick comment get you back to you so one quick comment so just to be clear we can go to church fathers But just to be 100% crystal clear, none of the apostles in any of their writings ever taught that you must believe that you are eating his flesh literally and drinking his blood to have eternal life. I want to make that explicitly clear.

[00:46:14]>> Well, the Apostle John, >> right? Right.

[00:46:16]>> No, I'm talking in the New Testament church. I'm talking about I'm talking about postresurrection Jesus Christ, Acts through Revelation. They never taught that.

[00:46:26]>> I just want to be very crystal clear.

[00:46:27]They never taught the mass. No, absolutely not. The Eucharist does not exist without the mass. That's the key here.

[00:46:32]>> Well, first off, I don't know why you're using the term mass. Mass is like a fifth century term that was in Latin.

[00:46:37]You could say liturgy. That is >> actually dismissal because they dismissed the people that came out and it started around the fourth or fifth century.

[00:46:43]>> Did you hear what I just said? The word liturgy, for example, the apostles use that in the book of Acts.

[00:46:48]>> You use that. Yeah, you change it. I'm talking of the Catholic mass. Either way, it's the celebration of the consecration of the host and wine. Do you not believe that the priest has to do something to the wafer for it to then be transubstantiated?

[00:46:58]>> First off, Orthodox Christians do not believe in wafers. We believe in using regular bread. Um, >> is the bread changed somehow?

[00:47:06]>> Well, you need a special you need a special ordained priest to do that.

[00:47:11]>> Well, yeah, Levitical priesthood.

[00:47:14]There's just like there, you know, there's a priesthood of the believers.

[00:47:17]>> Where is that taught in scripture that you have to have a special ordained priest to do that? Where where did Jesus >> No, I'm saying well there's a Levitical priesthood and there's a priesthood of believers in the Old Testament too.

[00:47:26]That's just the parallel.

[00:47:27]>> So nowhere that Jesus and the apostles taught that as well. Okay.

[00:47:30]>> I didn't say that. Um if if Paul and Silas liturgized in the book of Acts, that implies that they had that ability.

[00:47:38]>> All I'm saying is is look, you're you're you're talking about a teaching that one has to have a required certain person who is a priest ordained to do this type of liturgy type of mass thing. We don't see Jesus or the apostles that were teaching that one has to have that kind of quality. The >> Eucharist is not enough.

[00:47:54]>> Is that is that because you disdain the priesthood?

[00:47:58]>> No.

[00:47:59]>> Because the word of God does not give a >> I'm saying because the word of God doesn't teach it.

[00:48:03]>> The Apostle Paul laid hands >> on men and they were ordained presptors which >> were say they were ordained only ones to do the mass or do the Eucharist. Where does it say that at Vonabus? Where's that at?

[00:48:19]>> It's understood in tradition, isn't it?

[00:48:22]Oh, tradition. I got you. Okay.

[00:48:24]>> Apostolic holy tradition.

[00:48:26]>> I am curious as to why we're kind of there's no there's no like uh nuance in this whatsoever. We know that there are clergy in the New Testament. We know there are qualifications for clergy in the New Testament.

[00:48:38]>> Elders, overseers, overseers or bishops, they're the same thing.

[00:48:43]>> Sure.

[00:48:43]>> Um so, so yeah, there is a three-fold hierarchical structure. And so one would imagine that the well that depends on it's actually three-fold but um it's >> but even even grant that brother you know brother respectfully um >> grant that my whole point though is where do we see the apostles teaching that certain individuals are the only ones who can be ordained to do the Lord's supper?

[00:49:13]>> Nowhere any man can be ordained. Thank Thank you.

[00:49:17]>> But he has to actually be ordained. Um the >> Oh, where's that qualification?

[00:49:22]>> You just can't be a lay person. Can't be a lay person to do it. Oh, so you can't just be a normal Christian >> in his epistle to Timothy. No, you have to be a decent a good Christian with one wife. He's not a drunkard, etc. You know, it's not just >> there's qualifications.

[00:49:36]>> So, I've been an elder. I've been a deacon. I've been a pastor. Am I qualified?

[00:49:42]>> Well, you can apply.

[00:49:44]>> Yeah. [laughter] I I mean, we'll we'll we'll back you up if you >> That was an honest answer.

[00:49:49]>> Recommendations letters if you need.

[00:49:51]>> Oh, one thing I like about you, Bonafish, you you make some funny good comments, man. You crack me up.

[00:49:57]>> You crack me up.

[00:49:58]>> You need you need letters of recommendation, you let us know.

[00:50:01]>> Oh, well, you [laughter] I'll be calling you first.

[00:50:07]>> Oh, >> Kelly, I got about 20 I got about 20 more minutes or so. So, >> yeah, I need to wrap up here soon, too.

[00:50:14]Um, listen, there's a bunch of people waiting. Um, >> okay. Well, >> I I love you both being up. I really do.

[00:50:22]Um, let's >> we should do this again. We should plan it.

[00:50:25]>> Why don't we Why don't we plan this?

[00:50:28]>> Let's plan us two and us two. Have a respectful little feisty. There's nothing wrong with little feistiness because if Bonafice is there, we know it's going to be feisty.

[00:50:38]>> Let's Let's plan it and that way then it'll be it'll be great.

[00:50:41]>> All right, that sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah.

[00:50:44]>> All right. Thank you guys for No problem. Take care. God bless.

[00:50:48]>> See you guys. Take care.

[00:50:50]>> All right. So, we're going to take care of those guys. Thank you guys for being here. Appreciate it. All right. So, we got a bunch of people. Let's see. Who do we have left here? We've got two people with their videos on. So, we're going to bring these last two up because they're the ones that have the videos on. And we're going to bring these guys up and bring both at the same time. We got uh Neo Turtle. Turtle. turtle. Yeah.

[00:51:13]>> Um, and then we also got, how do you pronounce your name, my friend?

[00:51:16]>> Talesen.

[00:51:18]>> Talesen. All right. All right. Are you guys Catholic or Orthodox?

[00:51:22]>> I'm I'm actually Protestant. So, if if he's one of those, he can go first. I actually have a question related to communion because I have some opinions about that in contrast to transubstantiation.

[00:51:36]>> So, so you're you're you're you're Protestant.

[00:51:40]>> Yeah. What church denomination are you with?

[00:51:42]>> Uh I'm a historicist Sabbathke keeper.

[00:51:45]Uh unfortunately because of that I hang out with SDA but I am not SDA and I am disagree with a lot of them and Ellen White.

[00:51:54]>> Okay. So let's just go to you first because I want to get to him more importantly because that's the main debate today is yeah Catholics and Orthodox. So what is your quick question so we can get to it?

[00:52:03]>> Yeah. So my main thing is you guys are saying you know uh transubstantiation is false. you know, there's a difference between metaphor and spiritual, and I agree with that. It's not true. It's a metaphor or it's spiritual. But I would actually take it a step further and suggest that uh the modern Protestant movement of what we call communion is also false. It's us taking the tradition of Catholic communion and bringing it into Protestantism.

[00:52:36]Whereas when Jesus said this is my bread or the the bread is uh life is my flesh.