The XRP & XLM Hybrid Financial Reset Has Begun | Jake Claver Interview

追加: 2026-06-04

[00:00:26]Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the program or welcome if this is your first time. Today is a very special one.

[00:00:32]I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined once again by our good friend Jake Claver, the director and founder of Digital Ascension Group, a true American entrepreneur in my view, sharp investor, and one of the clearest voices in the digital asset and blockchain ecosystem.

[00:00:47]Jake, it's a real pleasure to have you back on the show. How's everything going on your end?

[00:00:52]>> Blessed, brother. Appreciate you having me back. Thanks. Uh thanks for the opportunity.

[00:00:55]>> Absolutely. I'm very happy to hear that.

[00:00:58]By the way, you know, I know you're doing some incredible things in this ecosystem. You're building, you're investing, but you're also genuinely changing people's lives for the better.

[00:01:07]So, we do have a lot to cover today, and I want to dive straight right into it. I think the entire industry is really watching these developments with massive anticipation. So, uh, if we could go ahead and start actually with the Clarity Act, >> for sure.

[00:01:22]>> You know, a lot of people in the ecosystem don't even know what the Clarity Act really is. So, I'll try my best to frame this question short, but maybe you could touch on the Clarity Act, what it actually is, and another uh thing, why is it taking so long? And finally, in your view, like what do you really think is going on behind the scenes as far as the political and industry battles that are playing out?

[00:01:46]>> That's that's a lot in one question, but I'll try to tackle it. So, >> take your time. Take your time.

[00:01:51]>> Yeah. So at its core, the Clarity Act gives institutions and enterprises clarity on how they can participate with digital assets, uh how they should be held, custodied, um who has oversight on what. Um and and there's some DeFi components in there as well. And I think that may be the hangup and why it's taking so long. Uh there there needs to be accountability and transparency on you know how the assets are being used, how they're being held, who has oversight, who's accountable if there's something bad that happens in a liquidity pool or an AMM or you know do we have KYC AML? Right now it's just an open decentralized ecosystem that pretty much anybody can participate in if you have a MetaMask wallet uh or one of the other wallets that you know is required for whichever ecosystem you are wanting to deploy capital or assets into. Um, you know, I I was on Capitol Hill last year advocating for both the Clarity Act and the Genius Act. Genius Act got through. Uh, I had mentioned that I thought it would probably take till 26 to get the Clarity Act. Uh, and and here we are. And I don't know that we're even going to see it this year, unfortunately. Um, I'm kind of 955. I'm optimistic. I'm hoping that I'm wrong and that, you know, there's there is a 5% chance in my mind that we do see it this year. I think that there would have to be some significant catalyst to be able to kind of force the hand of Congress to get it across the line. They have competing priorities before the midterms at this point to see the markup come through and actually, you know, get on the docket uh was optimistic for it.

[00:03:21]Um but with the Senate, you know, being they still need another five to seven Democrats in the Senate to approve this.

[00:03:26]They struck out, uh a lot of the language the Democrats put in the bill.

[00:03:30]And so with Senator Warren and other people kind of advocating against it, I just don't know what that outcome's going to be. Are there going to be filibusters? Um we could also pontificate on, you know, who's behind the delay here. um Ripple and many others in the ecosystem have publicly been advocates for this but at the same time I've mentioned that you know certain assets have strategic modes and advantages uh without this being passed uh because of the lawsuit and and other things. So um lot of dynamics at play causing this to continue to get pushed out. the the one piece that I think most people have had at least publicly the contention around has been yield on stable coins which was should have been defined in the Genius Act. Um but with the OC issuing their guidance on stable coins and how that's going to be used I think that that's going to be a misnomer going forward. their their comment period ended May 1st and so anytime between now and July 18th of 2026. Um we could see them come out with regulatory oversight and guidance uh how the bank should be issuing stable coins, how the reserves are held, you know what they are looking for when they're doing an audit or enforcing those rules uh and how, you know, they're able to pay yield or not pay yield or what, you know, tokenized deposits even look like. Uh, I think that that's going to be the mechanism by which most people are able to hold their money with a bank and earn a return. Uh, or one of these FinTechs or or NEO banks. We've also got like the skinny Fed Master accounts that have been applied for. You had three different people get in before that closed, which was Ripple, Wise, and Anchorage, uh, which is our custodian that we work with. And so, very hopeful that, uh, all three of those parties get the, uh, master accounts that they applied for. um PACE act would give the ability for um you know other neo banks and fintech to get access to that. Um but we did have Trump just the other day sign an executive order that actually you know fortified some of the language that was in the Clarity Act that hasn't been passed yet and also the PACE act as well. So there are some freedoms and liberties that are going to be afforded to those parties in the short term here until that legislation is passed which is good. I think that they are leaning in um to the industry and trying to move it forward any way that they can. And we just had the the tweet from Trump this morning saying that they are going to implement, you know, blockchain backed systems here in the US that'll be very difficult to remove uh by any future um administration. So I'm hopeful. I think that we're going to see, you know, a significant consolidation of this asset class this year down to somewhere between, you know, 70 to 90 networks in total. Um, a much, you know, far cry from the 50,000 cryptocurrencies that we currently have today. Uh, but I think that that'll those will be where people make the money and then also uh provide real value in utility and society. And I think all that will happen here uh with institutional adoption here in 2026.

[00:06:33]incredible insight. If I'm not mistaken, also I saw some uh headlines about the fact that they want to change the regulations around taxes for cryptocurrencies, too. So, it's almost like that they're, you know, I mean, when you look at the court case that took place before the headlines, it seems like they're just buying time.

[00:06:50]What do you think about that? Do you think they're just buying valuable time for countries to ddollarize? possibly maybe time for central banks to keep buying gold and stacking up other assets and just testing these new settlement systems.

[00:07:03]>> Yeah, I do. And I I think the main piece or the last piece of the puzzle is oversight from the OC on stable coins.

[00:07:11]Um, we need a way to be able to drive demand domestically here in the US when know I believe that the reverse carry trade is going to unwind at scale and we're going to see a ton of treasuries flow back here and if we didn't have domestic demand to be able to stabilize the bond market that could be very bad.

[00:07:26]So until that's you know in place they've been very methodical about rolling these things out. I thought that when I first put out the domino theory that things could happen very quickly and I I think that they can. And I think it'll be a trickle trickle flood scenario, but I think that they want to make sure that they have everything shored up in place, ready to go uh before that event occurs. And so uh it is also doing those other things that you just mentioned though. It's allowing people more time to make sure that they are in position uh when this transition takes place so that they're not left out or behind or you know and there's also a lot of parties that are al involved with this, right? like this is a global transition for the financial system that's going to take place and it needs to be very coordinated and people need to meet deadlines and timelines in order for it to actually happen. And I'm sure that that's been pushed out. You you always run into things in business and in life where circumstances, you know, keep you from meeting certain deadlines that you had anticipated. So that may be part of the the reason that things continue to get kicked.

[00:08:31]>> Interesting. Yeah. Also, uh, if I'm not mistaken, Ripple, they've been really begging for clarity since 2017. And essentially, the Clarity Act, you know, some of the things you've said before, it's going to unlock trillions and trillions of institutional capital into the digital economy. This is really, it's not just a bill really. It's going to set the foundation for America to lead the next financial system. Is that correct?

[00:08:58]You know, again, I think that the regulators can do that somewhat and I do think that the Clarity Act will get passed. I just don't know if it's going to be before midterms. That's that's my concern. Um, we do need to be tech forward. You know, we won the internet boom uh because we put regulations in place. I think we need to be thinking about AI at the same time. There's >> guard rails and certain things that need to be regulated there. Uh, otherwise that can go off the rails also. Um, but yeah, I I think that this administration, I mean, we got David Sax, right? Like he was a crypto and AISAR. We've never had one of those at the White House before. So, they are very aware of these progressive technologies and how they're going to disrupt things and that they need guardrails and regulation around them.

[00:09:41]Um, but yeah, I I don't know that the Clarity Act itself will unlock the the value. I I think that there may be a catalyst or something else that comes down the pike that people are forced to make this move uh that maybe didn't necessarily want to. And that may also be some of what's going on with them pushing regulation out. you know, uh there's a lot of incumbents that make money, a lot of money off of the current frictions in the system and they probably want to continue to do that and they have enough money to lobby and uh put themselves in between this and and that outcome. And so, you know, I think that's part of it. And if you're backed into a corner and you don't have a choice, that's probably the the situation where they're going to have to fold and actually get it across the line, >> right? basically becomes a necessity at that point.

[00:10:31]>> Correct.

[00:10:31]>> Because of all the geopolitical conflict, whether it's really geopolitical, but it's just the financial legacy systems are cracking really and the bond market is in trouble right now. So, you you've been on point with that as far as the reverse carry trade. That's definitely a critical piece of this. So, it could certainly accelerate things. Correct.

[00:10:49]>> I think so. I think that may end up being the catalyst that kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back and forces things to move. Um, we've seen that Congress can move quickly if there's a crisis. We saw that during COVID. And so, >> yeah, >> there's uh there's hope for that, but until there's that situation, they like to be very methodical and slow and play to their own objectives. Um, even if it's at the public's detriment.

[00:11:13]>> Yeah, just classic Washington, intense lobbying from the traditional banks.

[00:11:18]But, you know, there's another side of this. I always thought that it's interesting because a lot of the banks who are pushing the the Clarity Act and the regulations are, you know, the same ones who are kind of challenging it. And that's why I always assumed maybe they're just buying time like it was a circus, you know, but then again, you're correct. There are certain critical points, pressure points that could hit and kind of accelerate things. So, I definitely agree with you on that.

[00:11:44]>> Okay. Well, uh, yeah, that's very insightful. Thank you so much for that.

[00:11:48]But to your point, you know, the industry is definitely evolving at light speed as legacy systems are cracking under all the pressure. I want to tackle some of the other breaking news that just came the other day. It was the DTCC that just announced plans now to integrate uh tokenization, which is a massive market with the stellar ecosystem. So Jake, maybe you can touch on that. What does it actually mean for Wall Street's multi-chain strategy?

[00:12:15]>> Yeah, so it is multi-chain, right? We we've seen Ono, we've seen Securitize, we've seen Canton all announced partnerships with different exchanges and different components for the actual trading of the stocks or shares on the stock market. Um, you know, I I think it's going to be an amalgamate amalgamation of multiple networks that allow for that to function at scale. Um, people want it to be very simple. They just want, you know, one protocol to rule it all. I don't think that that's going to be the case. It's a multi-chain future. uh just like the internet. I mean, there's, you know, five, six layers of the internet that all work together in order to be able to facilitate how we use it today. And you don't think about any of those things.

[00:12:55]You just use the internet and it does what you're looking to do, right? Um this will be the same way. And I think that they're going to ladder this or stack it in a way where, you know, multiple networks will benefit. Um maybe some more so than others. I tend to believe that the XRPL will receive the majority of the settlement and the volume for that piece. Um but all of these other ones will also see additional benefit from them you know having trading across their network settling through that token between the different shares uh or you know other tokenized assets. Uh, and then you have to have, you know, things that allow for interoperability between all these ecosystems like Axel or Wormhole or some CCIP like Chain Link has. There's there's a couple different people that play in that space. And so, you know, like I said, somewhere between 70 and 90 networks is what I think will exist at the end. There'll probably be three to five that are like the core infrastructure that people use on a daily basis without even realizing it.

[00:13:52]And then there'll be some niche stuff.

[00:13:54]You know, you look at Vevel, you look at Stronghold. Um there there's other things that have unique applications.

[00:13:59]Zbeck is another one. Um where they facilitate a specific value transfer for, you know, a unique outcome. Uh and I think that they'll gain market share in those applications, but the broader uh markets as a whole will will have to rely on, you know, somewhere between three and five core networks.

[00:14:19]>> Yeah. very very important because this is really the architecture of digital value. You have multiple layers but essentially one language model and layer one some of the things you've said before is institutional settlement and liquidity very important retail global inclusion that's like the second layer and I think uh liquidity and infrastructure bridges >> so you're absolutely right yeah there's a unified design happening here you know maybe we can dive a little bit deeper into uh tokenization because it essentially ties into this breaking news from the DTCC C maybe you know you can explain how tokenization actually intersects with the future of money but more importantly let's focus actually on the explosive upside potential for select digital assets that you kind of just described of there.

[00:15:08]>> Yeah. So I mean we could kind of hyperfixate on on stellar if we want to for a moment. Um but the broader benefit of tokenization of stocks and equities is uh one real-time settlement uh and clearing um which I think is be kind of a separate component but allows the trading to move to uh what eventually will be 245. I think they're going to start with 235 first. Um, you know, crypto markets oper operate 24/7, 365, uh, which is very, it's a stark difference from nights and weekends and holidays that these major exchanges traditionally use. And that's because they settle T+1 or T+2. Um, I think that this year in 26 they'll move to T+0. Uh, and the DTCC has, you know, had that built in the background for a while. I think that project ion which they worked with on an R3 um is is what they're going to utilize to facilitate that. Uh but the net benefit for the consumer that's participating in the stock market is uh fractionalized shares um you know immediate distribution of dividends on a on a faster cadence rather than it being quarterly. Um potentially you know different types of voting rights for those shares. the majority of the shares that are traded are common but um you know there may be some additional benefits there. Um outside of that you know stock splits uh I don't think will happen in the future. Uh that's a mechanism by which you know if let's say Amazon runs up to $4,000 there's many people that can't afford a share of Amazon and so they will dilute the shares um issuing you know like a 20 to1 and they'll bring that down to you know $20 a share or or $200 a share where the average person can actually purchase a share. But if they were all tokenized and you could buy fractions of a share or 10,000th of a share, uh how many people would like to own Berkshire Hathaway, >> but they don't have half a million dollars to to invest, right? So this this allows access. It democratizes access. You've already seen Ono uh also roll out global stock trading. So it's not available here in the US, but they have a tokenized platform for uh different equities that they hold as an exchange. uh and they're offering that to anybody that has a cell phone in Africa or other jurisdictions. So, you know, the distribution, democratization of access, fractionalization of the shares and and you know, more trading access. Uh and then there's also going to be derivatives and liquidity, right?

[00:17:35]So, you'll be able to trade uh actually real time between bonds and equities and, you know, private credit or maybe even, you know, private equity. there'll be a lot of things that move through the DTCC or another clearing body um that allows people to settle and trade assets outside of uh stocks or equities um real time as well. So it'll become ubiquitous rather than the siloed fragmented ecosystem that we have today where people arbitrage their trusted relationships and sit as gatekeepers to be able to you know um break fees on things. I think that it's going to be uh a really really cool thing to see happen and I think that a lot of people will have access to things that they didn't have before on the other side of it.

[00:18:22]>> Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, this is massive and I I just think the timing couldn't be better.

[00:18:28]If I'm not mistaken, the DTCC is really the infrastructure bone um backbone I'm sorry for uh let's say I think it's 114 trillion US in securities and uh if I'm not mistaken also they process quadrillions in transactions annually quadrillion a year >> wow big numbers >> right >> daily settlement is somewhere between six and I think it peaks around like 11 or 12 billion dollars in daily settlement It's just crazy though how it directly now intersects with the stellar public blockchain. I think this is just going to be incredible the upside.

[00:19:07]>> 2020 early Q1 2027 is when the they're going to be rolling out.

[00:19:11]>> It's coming. It's coming everyone ladies and gentlemen. So again you got to be on top of this. I I really can't imagine like how much wealth is going on chain essentially all value eventually. And you know as tokenization volume continues to explode the demand also for real settlement is going to explode with it. And I think that's where XRP becomes so critical to all this because it's really those who provide that critical infrastructure is going to power the transition really and capture of course the outsized value that we're talking about here.

[00:19:43]>> Yeah, I completely agree. I, you know, a lot of people anticipate that you the actual implementation of this tech is is where we're going to see significant price appreciation.

[00:19:54]I I tend to think that that's true to some capacity, but I think it'll be kind of they need to set a floor in order to start being able to use these assets.

[00:20:03]There has to be enough liquidity in them prior to them leveraging it for the back-end settlement of markets or FX or commodities. And and I think that there's going to be a supply shock that pushes the price to a level where they can then start using it where it will have enough liquidity and then beyond that it becomes a flywheel like you're talking about where all of these assets get tokenized over the next you know 5 10 years. There's more volume in trading on chain and that just continues to build the value in the each one of these protocols um and the tokens themselves over that duration.

[00:20:35]>> Yeah. You know, I want to ask you another question that we didn't talk about this before our call, but do you think eventually some of these specific niche use case technologies are going to essentially decouple from the broader market? Because they're not really tied to it. They seem to be the technologies to function underneath all of it.

[00:20:57]uh you think there's going to be a decoupling >> significant right for any of these assets that are driven by actual utility and volume outside of speculative trading or bot trading. Um I explained this on a a podcast I was on a little bit before this one. So the reason that the market moves the way that it does is it is speculative today. There's not a whole lot of utility if any in in these digital assets. Um Bitcoin drives the market. It's the largest uh player that's out there. uh and many of the bots will take out leverage on Bitcoin, go long and when they get liquidated, uh Bitcoin has a small move down, right?

[00:21:32]But because they're playing with leverage, they have huge losses. And so they take from the other positions that they have in the market, causing even further downside in altcoins to be able to repay the the margined losses that they now have from their their Bitcoin longs. So that's why, you know, you'll see XRP or Salana or some of these other digital assets actually lose more value than Bitcoin when Bitcoin, you know, tanks or has a big, you know, move to the downside. Uh, and I don't think people really realize that. They don't understand the mechanism by which this actually happens. They think that there's just sentiment in the market and everybody's getting scared and they're all selling at the same time. Um, it's I would argue that the market's not really even retail driven anymore. It's very institutional at this point. There's trading desk at scale. We've got these, you know, the ETFs and other structured products that are involved in crypto.

[00:22:22]And there's a lot of institutional capital that's moved into the space. And so, you know, with that, that's that's the reason that the market moves the way that it does. But as we see, you know, different discrepancies or assets um gain significant market share and and Bitcoin is no longer the number one asset. Um and then you know the additional utility that you just mentioned the valuations of these assets is going to be derived from you know other outside things other than just speculation in the market off of Bitcoin and different options positions that people have on it.

[00:22:58]>> Yeah, I think it's very important in the way you described it because you're right, it is not retail driven anymore.

[00:23:04]I don't think it has been for some time now, but you know, decoupling is going to be very interesting to see because it almost seems it ties us back to what we talked about when we first started this.

[00:23:14]It's going to be enforced by raw necessity. And another thing we should probably touch on because, you know, a lot of people I put out a clip the other day with Judy uh from Digital Outlook.

[00:23:25]She put me on the spot. She asked me, "Give me a a price prediction for XRP."

[00:23:29]And you know, we don't normally do price predictions, right? But we try our best to explain the mechanisms about how the structural price would become a necessity. Right.

[00:23:39]>> Um so maybe I will put you on the spot now and ask you and I'm I'm you know I'm going to compliment of course what you have to say about this because >> I think when we start to talk about a decoupling we start to talk about these use cases uh and we're talking about institutions and trillions and trillions of dollars right essentially all value going onchain. Um, it's going to be interesting, right? How XRP's valuation and not just XRP, some of the other complimentary technologies are going to be stopped uh stop being driven really by retail sentiments because they're not, but being driven by something far more powerful. And we're talking about liquidity, right? Liquidity depth and the throughput capacity for settlement velocity. So maybe I'm going to ask you now. Uh I I speculated if you really think about it and we factor in all these contributing forces that you know I I should have pro I don't know if I should have said this but I said it could be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and um >> I think there's some mathematics there and many people would definitely disagree with me on this but >> you know >> well I think people look at it through the the lens of market cap and we've never seen anything that has a market cap that that is that large. If you had asked people 10 years ago if there could be a trillion dollar company, they would have said, "You're crazy, right?" Uh, but with the agentic economy and the amount of output and GDP that we're going to be able to generate from the efficiencies created from these progressive technologies, including blockchain, I I think that, you know, people think in terms of per capita or per person. Um, you have unlimited growth. It doesn't take nine months to make an AI and then another 18 years to teach it something in order so it can be a productive member of society.

[00:25:22]Literally, they can just spawn and be given orders and then they are productive, right? So um the pace at which we're going to see economic growth with the implementation of that um you know the frictions that are going to be removed uh by 247 365 settlement the velocity of money that's going to pick up in the economy that'll cause GDP growth. All of these things factor into the large numbers that you just mentioned. And then outside of that you've got these other economies that are going to come online in the next 5 to 10 years as well. You got metaverses.

[00:25:56]uh if Elon gets his way, we're colonizing the moon and Mars. You need you need interstellar commerce and and each one of those is going to have their own GDP and output and economics and you need interoperability. So for somebody to say that, you know, the market cap of this can't reach a certain point, I think is a very limited scope and they're just living in the paradigm that we have today without looking into the future about all these other things that are going to that are going to play out over the next decade. Um, so for that being said, you know, Greg Kid called XRP an intergalactic currency.

[00:26:28]>> You know, there's there's a few people that are very intelligent that say some things and you're like, I hadn't really thought about it that way. But if they're talking about it, I mean, Greg Kid's a prolific investor.

[00:26:40]He's done very well. He used to work for the Fed. He's also got, you know, Ripple, the meeting with the Fed in 2014.

[00:26:48]There there's a there there. And so with that being said, you know, again, I think that they're going to need to jumpst start this thing. I think they're going to need to drive liquidity into XRP to push it to a price where it's viable. Uh and then beyond that, it'll continue to compound um to the numbers that you talked about. And maybe even beyond that, I mean, David Schwarz has even talked about a million dollar XRP in one of the tweets that he put out.

[00:27:11]>> Yeah.

[00:27:11]>> That's not tomorrow. It's not anytime soon, but over a long enough period of time. Uh the other thing I'll say is most people can underestimate what can happen um in a decade and significantly overestimate what can happen in 12 months or a year.

[00:27:27]So you know if you think through that paradigm the majority of the public are and even myself like cool we could see some significant price appreciation this year but if you think if you're thinking spans a decade like and at the pace at which technology is progressing and many of the things I just mentioned before the size of the GDP globally or interstellarly if that's a word is going to be significantly greater orders of magnitude larger than it is today and to be able to facilitate that value at scale if there's a limited supply of a token like 100 billion >> which is nothing really.

[00:28:02]>> Yeah. In comparison to all of the commerce and transactions and settlement that needs to take place there.

[00:28:08]>> And then if you were to compound that with making the asset, you know, premium collateral like I believe it's going to be, much of that's going to be locked up and held away and put in ETFs or other structured products or liquidity pools or AMMs or DeFi where it's not available for transfer. So then it reduces the supply even further and therefore that price would have to be even higher in order to facilitate all of that economic um transfer. Right. So >> yeah, >> there's a lot of things that compound that lead me to believe that you're pretty accurate with your assessment.

[00:28:40]>> Yeah, your your assessment too. I think you you've been one of the leading voices in this ecosystem. But to your point also which is very interesting is that historically it's really the market that undervalues assets right before they become systemically important.

[00:28:56]>> And if we look at the railroads if we look at the internet or the backbone of the internet right the dollar settlement system which is very important too >> all of this was like dismissed misunderstood until the world could no longer function without them. Right.

[00:29:09]>> Correct. And if we look at XRP's trajectory and the broader ecosystem, again, it's not about catching a next hype cycle. We're talking about becoming the foundational infrastructure for the tokenized economy and financial system.

[00:29:22]And it's really the world's largest financial institutions that are actively building this. So to your point um as far as a very high price I think that's interesting because I always thought there would be an infinite price an infinite cycle and uh this can kind of like feed each other in itself with a loop because when I think about the future of finance and the relationship for instance between like XRP XL and a few other technologies in this ecosystem I feel like it is an infinite cycle one that feeds into itself because it grows stronger and more resilient over time And if you think about it, like XRP provides liquidity that's needed to power these large-scale institutional transactions, but what does XLM do? It ensures that smaller everyday transactions can move smoothly within a decentralized economy, if that's even a thing, right? We'll see. But together, it kind of creates this unified financial ecosystem that's a closed loop. So, everyone just kind of benefits from individual. Well, I think you know uh I would speculate that that is Black Rockck's intent.

[00:30:27]>> Uh >> tell me more about that.

[00:30:30]>> So I mean they were kind of tapped by the US government in 2008 to be able to reconcile the GFC and all the bad debt that was issued. Uh and they've they've done a really good job of that.

[00:30:40]Obviously the economy recovered and we've done very well. Um and now we're kind of moving into a bubble uh with the amount of debt that's been printed. Um, and so I think we're close to a blowoff top in the stock market. Again, predicated on, you know, the reverse carry trade kind of being the end to that that uh that rally. Um, but they're at the end of the rope. Like we're we're the point at which where we're at for the amount of debt that we've issued and our GDP. Uh, we can't service the interest, right? So, we need some way to be able to reconcile that, reduce M2 money supply, um, and regain, you know, actual stability and and the only way to do that is to move assets that are offchain onchain and then be able to borrow against an asset that continues to go up in perpetuity. Uh, to be able to funnel that loop, right? So you borrow against an asset that continues to appreciate in value, issue that debt, buy the things that are offchain or use that money to funnel them onchain. Now that trading happens here and it continues to push the price of the asset that you borrowed against up. Uh people that are wealthy have figured this out a long time ago. It's infinite banking effectively, right? Like >> they do that with an insurance policy or something else. Stock, you know, you got Zuckerberg and Bezos and Elon that famously do this. they borrow against their shares and there's no tax consequences and they're able to do other things, deploy that capital other places. Um, that's how the system is is built. Like I don't think debt's going to go away. I don't think credit's going to go away. Uh, you have to have those things to actually be able to move the economy forward at a faster and faster pace. Uh, if we didn't have the issuance of credit, we wouldn't be where we are technologically, like period, full stop.

[00:32:25]Um, >> so in order to continue the pace at which we're moving, I mean, you're you're looking at these AI companies raising billions of dollars. Um, some of that is borrowed money. Some of it's borrowed money from the Bank of Japan.

[00:32:39]>> So true.

[00:32:40]>> So, all that being said, you know, I I think that this is the positive feedback loop or the flywheel that pulls us out of this perpetual debt spiral that we've been in and unwinds all of that to where it actually becomes economically viable.

[00:32:54]And and to your point, there will come a point where it's systemic and necessary and they will have no other choice in order to uh start to implement it.

[00:33:02]>> Yeah. Also another powerful point is that when the currency is debased right now and that's what's really accelerating causing all these problems, capital doesn't really disappear. It just simply rotates.

[00:33:15]Right? At this point, I think it's seeking scarcity to a degree. Uh neutrality as well, which is very important. But throughout monetary history, the majority of people do get left behind from these systems. But as well, you mentioned the debt based system. I don't think debt and credit are going away. I think it's being integrated into the new financial system. And it's interesting because that's possibly one of the main reasons why they're really pushing aggressively for tokenization. Sure, you do have the fractionalization, democratization of assets and being able to capture that upside value, but also it's a mechanism of collateral for the institutions as well. And I find that very interesting.

[00:33:54]I actually just put a piece out on this the other day and I did get a lot of negative feedback, but if people actually read the article thoroughly, I explained both sides of it. There is a lot of upside as well but calling it the quiet quiet confiscation mechanism of that of assets of from people but it's essentially serving as a collateral for the banks and the institutions.

[00:34:16]>> Well, and look like unless you want a Mad Max scenario, we can't let it collapse and they know that, right? Um, I think this has been planned out very methodically over multiple decades.

[00:34:34]It's not like this is the first time this has happened. Um, you know, there's been five reserve currencies over the past 500 years. And each time there's been a transition, there's been a reconciliation and restructuring of the debt when that's happened. A lot of time that's happened through wars. Um, because people obviously wouldn't agree on how that's going to work out for them. Uh this time I don't I don't think it's going to go that way. Obviously we have the conflict in the Middle East um and and the oil situation that I think is exacerbating or or speeding up this process. Um but outside of that I I don't think this is going to escalate to a World War II or you know a situation like that. I think that they've realized you know other people have nuclear weapons at this point and we can't go that direction. We've got to reel it in a little bit and like play nice and, you know, figure this out together.

[00:35:27]Otherwise, we just blow ourselves up and, you know, it's like 99.9% of um things that have been alive on this planet or different species are dead at this point. Uh we don't want to be one of those.

[00:35:43]>> Yeah.

[00:35:44]>> So, point, >> you know, a lot of people go down the rabbit hole and they and they don't see a way out. like a lot of people that aren't looking at crypto. Um, I don't know, there's a a lot of very intelligent people that you even had on this channel that I have a lot of respect for that just see it going down a very dark path, a great depression or the liquidity crisis or the dollar collapses and we end up with China or Russia as the supreme leader or global superpower. Um, I I don't think that's going to be the case. And I think that if they had reviewed this technology and all of the players in it and how they're integrated, they would see that this is the out >> Yeah.

[00:36:27]>> would you like to expand on that a little more as far as the geopolitical situation because uh I you know I think the geopolitical situation is certainly accelerating this multipolarity and the technology certainly fits in the category.

[00:36:42]>> Yeah. You know, I mean, we've already seen this over the past five years.

[00:36:46]People don't want to be sanctioned. They don't want to be subject to the US uh and our oversight if if they want to do things outside of what we agree with. Uh Russia, you know, they backed the ruble with gold and stepped away from the US dollar. China's looking to do the same, I would expect, with the amount of, you know, gold that they've purchased. Um it's going to end up being a multipolar world. The only way that that functions is if there's a reserve asset that sits in the middle of that that everybody agrees on. Uh that is not freezable or you can't claw it back or manipulate it or do things that would be malicious.

[00:37:20]The worst that you can do is just blacklist other wallets on the network that you don't want to participate with.

[00:37:25]>> Right?

[00:37:25]>> And that's what the XRPL facilitates.

[00:37:28]There is no counterparty risk with that asset because the origin account's been blackhold there. There's no way to issue more of it. there's nobody for that can freeze it or manipulate it. Um, and so you can issue assets on the network and each one of these countries wants to do that. They want to have their own sovereign currency that they can claw back and manipulate and and whatever their cultural paradigms are. Um, and this allows everybody, it's a level playing field. Like I don't know how many times people have said that over the years, but legitimately that's what this provides. And it allows people to compete on their own uh merit uh without, you know, somebody else being able to manipulate that or or cause them issue. And if if you wanted a true world where there we weren't going to have war uh or people weren't going to, you know, fight over resources, uh I'm sure that there'll still be some conflicts, but I don't think things are going to escalate to that point. Uh, and if you have some oversight from large regulatory bodies like the IMF and the BIS and we have the ESDR and and those things in place, people are going to be able to access liquidity and resources when they need to um and participate in a way that doesn't cause uh escalation or, you know, collateral damage like we've seen in the past. So, I'm I'm for it. I think that it's coming and like I said, I think this has been coming for a long time. uh and they've known that they needed to do it and um but some people are uh honory and entrenched and they don't want to move and so until they have to they're they're not going to.

[00:38:56]>> Yeah, very important insight right there. But you're absolutely right. When when the world has weaponized finance and essentially that's what the US has been doing, >> neutral assets become very strategic weapons and that's what you're saying.

[00:39:10]But, you know, XRP's neutrality is really its greatest strength. And it's it's interesting why most analysts, even on my show, I bring a lot of people on the show to really see what they're going to say about it. Of course, we share the information with them prior to our call and we never get some real insight from them. So, I don't know if it's uh something they just don't understand, maybe they don't want to talk about it. But the other side of this, something they do agree on is the fact that gold is reemerging as a strategic asset. So gold is really in the Basil 3 regulations frameworks and Basil 3 has their money flower and it's interesting Rick Rule confirmed this on our show that um you know he couldn't believe what we were talking about it but how XRP was in the private quadrant of money for their money flower which is the blueprint. So I I just find it also very interesting that gold as a high quality liquid asset is being integrated. up. You know that XRP gold.

[00:40:09]Yeah, go ahead.

[00:40:10]>> I was going to say if gold's tokenized, it opens gold up to >> Yeah.

[00:40:14]>> become a better money than it is today.

[00:40:17]>> Thank you.

[00:40:17]>> Um, you know, the portability is rough when you have large amounts of gold.

[00:40:22]>> Yeah. I know, man. It's one of my biggest issues right now. I was telling my wife, it's like, how the hell are we going to move all our gold? But yes, tokenized gold definitely evolves the role of gold and can certainly bring it back into the monetary system. It's like if you bring gold back into the monetary system, you take away the power from the central bankers and that's what a lot of people have said, you know, no way they're going to give up control, but they're at the intersection of it, too.

[00:40:49]>> Well, they're stockpiling it, right?

[00:40:51]Because they they know that it is in 2019, they moved it back to a tier one asset uh right next to US treasuries. I I think that oil and gold will be pegged uh in a specific value uh and that's what will set the basis for everybody else to be able to back their currencies to be able to stabilize them uh in this new monetary system. Um and may that may be done through treasuries. It'll probably be done kind of as a proxy. So we know that you know this year on the 250th anniversary you're supposed to be releasing a 50-year gold back bond according to Judy Sheldon. When you said Judy, I thought you meant Judy Sheldon.

[00:41:27]I was super jealous there for a second that you had >> Judy Sheldon on your show. Not that I don't love Judy from Digital Outlook, too, though.

[00:41:34]>> Um, >> but if they were to do that and then XRP were also to sit, you know, as you said, in in the flower there uh as a global reserve, uh, asset premium collateral or tier one based uh, on the designation given by the BIS. I I think that that's the perfect trio of of assets uh that would allow for, you know, this new financial paradigm to exist and be adopted at scale.

[00:42:00]>> Yeah. You know, I'll share a quick story with you. I'll keep it very brief. I know we got to wrap up soon, but uh I actually did speak with Judy Shelton once privately 2022.

[00:42:12]>> And I sent her an email. She responded very nice. I told her I was a big fan of her her work, the books she put out, just bringing gold back into the system.

[00:42:20]I really love gold, right?

[00:42:22]>> And I asked her to come on the show and I told her the topics I'd like to cover and I did mention XRP in there and she told me contact me later on down the road. That was the end of it. Another one is Nomi Prince from Goldman Sachs.

[00:42:36]>> Ah, >> now I spoke with Nomi Prince in 2022 as well and she agreed to come on to the show. She asked me to send her a list of topics, right? Things we were going to talk about. And uh when I mentioned XRP and XLM in there, her assistant contacted me, not know me Prince at this point, and she said there was a conflict of interest. And then shortly later, I have the short on my YouTube channel and on my ex account. She comes out with a statement. It sounds very scripted, but saying there are two potential blockchain technologies that are going to revolutionize the financial world and be the largest wealth transfer, which is very interesting because I speculated back then it was XRP and XLM.

[00:43:18]>> Yeah. Well, I think you were spot on.

[00:43:20]>> We're also about to see massive changes in the $23 trillion world of big finance. In the months ahead, central banks around the world are planning to go digital. Many of the legacy banks you've heard of where you probably even keep your money like Bank of America, Chase, City, Wells Fargo, they're about to be reset, overhauled by a new type of technology called fintech, which is short for financial technology.

[00:43:44]>> Yeah. Can I ask you what exactly does that mean for the banks and and all of us, you and me?

[00:43:49]>> Essentially, it means the function of our banks is about to change. They probably won't raise public suspicion about it by changing the signs on your bank's branches, but according to my sources, the Federal Reserve will soon own all the banks and your local branch.

[00:44:05]It's simply going to be like a licency of the Fed. In other words, the banking infrastructure is being rebuilt from the ground up. And very few Americans are aware this is even happening. And I should probably give my disclaimer uh just so that it covers both of us here.

[00:44:22]>> Nothing here is financial advice. It's only for entertainment and educational purposes. You should always consult with a financial adviser, CPA, uh or attorney before making any tax, legal, or financial decisions. Um the opinions I share on here are my opinions. They are not the opinions of Digital Ascension Group or any of our subsidiaries. So, >> thank you for that. I really appreciate it. I should do that more often.

[00:44:45]>> Okay. So before we wrap up, I I know >> I get asked this constantly by clients in the comments and also our viewers on other digital assets. Now I do maintain my own high conviction basket of investments, right? I've shared many times with everybody else here, but Jake CL maybe you could share with our audience. I think they'd really appreciate this. What other opportunities do you see in this ecosystem that other people might be missing out on? And I know you mentioned a few, but >> yeah, >> cover it again.

[00:45:17]>> I mean, again, I think there'll be 70 blockchains that 70 to 90 blockchains that stick around, and there's there's three to five that I think will be the main backbones of different structures.

[00:45:28]Um, XRP, you know, I I don't personally own anything other than XRP. Um, I have one small allocation that I made to Hash, which is um Provenance Blockchain's token. uh as a recent development. You know, I think about a year ago they launched that token. Still very low in value. Um you can only buy it in a couple places on uh Osmosis and Figure Markets. So I had Mike Kagny on on my podcast. If you haven't had Mike on, you you should reach out to him. He would be fantastic.

[00:46:02]>> He built SoFi and now he's got Figure Markets. He's rolling mortgage back securities on chain to the tune of about a$1.5 billion dollars a month at this point. Um so tokenizing those helocks um auto loans all of that's done on provenance. Um they also have outside of anything he's doing life insurance tokenized uh on that blockchain. So when I was doing some research and looking for you know utility based digital assets and and which verticals were currently being tokenized. I came across insurance and that was really the only blockchain that had any traction in that space and so that's what turned me on to it. Uh, but it reminds me of XDC when I originally bought that. Uh, you you there was no exchange listings. You had to buy ETH, send it to this weird wallet and convert it into XDC and it was an ERC20 token at the time. Uh, it was 300ths of a penny when I bought it. Um, and so, you know, with no exchange listings and kind of an obscurity, uh, and then also, you know, the the businesses and things that are being tokenized on that network, I I have a high conviction that that's probably going to do well over the long term. And I don't think that that's one that most people have on their radar. Um and then you know all the other ones that many people talk about in the space that are looking at utility driven assets there's XLM HAR uh XDC uh Algarand Ono Canton Zbeck Bellow Strong Stronghold um yeah I mean there's there's tons of these things that are going to fulfill you know unique niche applications uh and have market share already in that and if they are the first mover, they have that advantage. Not saying that they're going to be the winner over the long term. Um there's things like um as an example, merchant services for Stronghold, Stripe, if they roll out something on their side and they have their own token for that.

[00:48:00]Sorry, but but Stronghold is going to get crushed on that one because they already have market share and distribution, right? But there's the other piece where Stronghold could get acquired by a Stripe or another payment processor like World Pay. If that were to happen, then it becomes the thing, right? So, you you never know. Um, investing is always risky. It it could be the next thing that goes to the moon or it could be straight to zero. Just depends on the economics and partnerships and negotiations and all the things that happen between here and there. Um, >> interesting. But yeah, those are, you know, just some of the ones that that I look at on a regular basis. Um, anything that is going to be used, and actually Kevin Oly brought this up the other day, which I thought was interesting timing.

[00:48:47]>> Uh, he said that, um, if you could figure out, you know, which blockchains were going to tokenize the S&P, uh, those were the ones he would be investing in, right?

[00:48:56]>> That's an easy one.

[00:48:57]>> Yeah, >> that's an easy one, ladies and gentlemen. So really the key mindset what you're saying here is just focus on utility adoption and very important regulatory clarity as well. So it's not just really the shiny ones uh that get the most attention. It's it's going to be the ones the projects that are quietly powering the rails and some of the complimentary ecosystem. Right? So uh very important. So just position accordingly, stay disciplined and think ahead like not days but decades >> if you can. you know, one one of our core values at the firm and also at my family office is uh being aggressively patient, >> right? So, having a you know, it's actually pantheon thinking is how we label it um over the next hundred years uh if you can think that far into the future, which is very difficult to do.

[00:49:45]Obviously, there's a lot of changes with regulation and society and cultural norms and and many other things that are going to happen over that duration. But, uh, if you can think in multiple decades, but while you're working that back to like aggressive daily actions, working toward those outcomes, um, that's that's where the secret sauce is for all the people that I've met that are extremely successful.

[00:50:07]>> Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you very much.

[00:50:09]Now, as we do wrap up, I'd really like to hear, and I think our audience would too, what are you, Jay Claver, personally watching right now? Are you building anything? I know you guys are doing some wonderful things. So just maybe you want to tell us a little bit about what projects you're involved in or some trends that you guys are putting together. What what excites you the most?

[00:50:29]>> Um I mean working on a lot of things ways to be able to put your dormant assets to work that don't have native staking uh capability a wide variety of opportunities in that vertical. Um but separate of that you know we really want to unify um all the different custodians and exchanges um and different players that are out there. So we we already have integrations with Anchorage uh and Uphold um but really kind of become a unified platform that allows you to access liquidity uh or opportunities across all the different players in the market. Um with the regulatory status that we have I think that we have a really good head start on that. uh have about a billion in AUM. Uh even with the market being down, uh people are still aggregating assets and you know working with us on that which is fantastic to see. Um but that's the idea over the long term. It's become kind of a a platform that allows people access to all these institutional products and democratizes access to that for um the XRP family and broader community that's out there. And then make sure that you, you know, kind of change your paradigm to become a steward of these assets as they appreciate. I think a lot of people think about these as these are my investments and this is my money, which truly they are. Um, but if you want this to last for the next hundred years, um, you are just you're a steward of those assets for whatever period of time you're holding them. That's how the wealthiest families in the world look at things. Uh, and they try to create continuity and structure and governance around the wealth that they've created so that their children have the understanding and education to be able to continue this into the future and not squander it across three generations.

[00:52:12]So, building all of that into one unified application. Um, no easy feat.

[00:52:17]There's a lot of moving pieces and partnerships and um regulation and compliance uh that we have to work through in order to be able to do that correctly. um and mitigating risk all while doing that also. Um but yeah, working that's that's what we're working toward and uh we'll continue to forge the path there and and hopefully a lot of people want to come along with us.

[00:52:41]>> Yeah. Wow. Wow. Jake, you know, uh from the moment I met you, uh this was years ago, we met at Jimmy Valley's conference. Uh I think I had too much to drink, but >> you >> Yeah, we had a good time. But you've just risen tremendously and you know it's incredible. You've stayed articulate. You've been principled and just you've focused on real value and you know it's just incredible. I'm I'm really honored to have been able to connect with you again and just watch your journey. So I really bless you and you know everything you're doing. I wish you nothing but continued prosperity.

[00:53:15]>> Thank you brother. that means the world and um same to you and and vendelle for everything that you guys are doing over there and on Box Black Swan Capitalist and I'm sure that we'll find many more ways to be able to collaborate in the future.

[00:53:27]>> I would like that very much. Thank you.

[00:53:29]And ladies and gentlemen, I just want to thank you all for tuning in as well.

[00:53:32]Please, if this did resonate with you, please follow, like, comment, share this episode aggressively and follow Jake's work. uh he's definitely one of the builders in this ecosystem but you know he's putting out a lot of very powerful actionable information uh because I think this is and he does too that this greatest wealth transfer in human history and these opportunities really don't come more than once. So go support Jake Clayber.

[00:53:56]>> That's right. Once in a lifetime and just support all the work we're trying to do here. And in the meantime everybody stay alert, vigilant and try to prosper. Okay. Take care everyone.