They Said We're Preaching Heresy... Here's Our Response. | WMF21

[00:00:00]Somebody accused us of being Joanianists.

[00:00:03]>> Jovenianism is an anti- aesthetic movement. He criticized the monastic movement and argued for the equality of marriage and [music] celibacy.

[00:00:12]>> Though it says marriage, marriage, marriage, where is the call to perpetual virginity? Celibacy. The traditional teaching of the church is not merely that celibacy is better than consummated marriage. The traditional teaching is that even in marriage, sex will always be tainted due to the always present concupisence in the act. I always want to start with whatever element of truth I can find. The gravitational pull of lust here [music] is real. He is waving a flag and saying, "Hey, this is dangerous territory, the realm of sexuality." Yeah, it is. If all we have is the lustful fallen reality, well, pardon the pun, we're screwed. But there's another [music] way to see.

[00:00:50]There's another way to think. He is coming from a point of view that normalizes the interpretation of suspicion. The interpretation of suspicion is that [music] is tainted.

[00:00:59]There's no possibility of real inner transformation here.

[00:01:02]>> Ever read Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome, Gregory the Great? Back then it was very popular for married couples to be completely abstinent.

[00:01:10]>> I'm just thinking about Augustine's own journey of sliding into Manachian dualistic cults.

[00:01:16]>> Just because a saint said it does not mean >> they have their own path of purification. the gift of the church's reflection [music] over 2,000 years at this season of theological reflection. If I could sum it up, it is this. If you have been blessed by this podcast and you would like it to bless others, here's a few things you can do that would really help. Of course, subscribe, leave a review, rate the podcast, or if you're listening on YouTube, please leave a comment.

[00:01:48]Did he fund?

[00:01:49]>> Is that what he means by pdy?

[00:01:52]>> Yes.

[00:01:52]>> What about John C me? Little diddy.

[00:01:55]>> Jack two American kids >> growing up in hard land.

[00:02:00]>> My kids think that song's creepy.

[00:02:02]>> Well, there's a couple >> there is a creepy line when I sing.

[00:02:04]>> But they picked up on it. They're like, "What's doing the shady trees with the shady trees? When I sing that song, this is how I do it because I do it as part of my, you know, it's a fan favorite when you're playing out. You're a musician and you play shows, >> right?

[00:02:19]>> And this is one of the songs you play.

[00:02:20]>> This is one of the songs I play.

[00:02:21]Correct.

[00:02:21]>> Nice way to put it, Mike.

[00:02:22]>> Yes. Thank you.

[00:02:23]>> I swim in that world.

[00:02:25]>> So I I instead of saying >> the song the line from John Cougar, >> which I don't even remember. How's the original line go? There's something about >> dribble off >> dribble off those Bobby Brooks.

[00:02:35]>> Let me do what I please. God have mercy.

[00:02:38]>> So I just say, who the hell is Bobby Brooks anyway? Would you tell me please?

[00:02:42][laughter] >> Do you say sucking on a chili dog? I do say suck it on the chili dog cuz I like that line.

[00:02:48]>> One of my favorite images that circulated the internet was it was a wanted poster.

[00:02:53]>> No, it was a poster of John Cougar uh from the 80s where he has that nice flow.

[00:02:58]>> You know how much he hated that name.

[00:02:59]>> Yeah, I know. Johnny Cougar.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah.

[00:03:01]>> And he's he's he's just looking at the camera and [clears throat] it says, "Do not serve this man a chili dog.

[00:03:08][laughter] Tasty free staff."

[00:03:13]>> That's great.

[00:03:15]That was great.

[00:03:15]>> You know what I do for Cecilia?

[00:03:18]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:03:19]>> There's a terrible line in Cecilia.

[00:03:22]>> Yeah, there's some bad >> uh CeCe breaking my heart.

[00:03:27]>> Uh making love in the afternoon with Cecilia. I I change it to up in our bedroom just to give a little marital flavor. Okay.

[00:03:36]>> Instead of saying up in my bedroom.

[00:03:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. I never even >> And then making love in the afternoon with Cecilia up in our bedroom. I get up to wash my face. You know the next line?

[00:03:48]>> No.

[00:03:49]>> When I come back to bed, someone's taking >> Oh, yeah. In my place. Yeah, that's right. [laughter] >> By the way, >> so I change it to uh I get up to wash my face. Now I'm changing the words cuz they're such a disgrace.

[00:04:04]>> Oh, that's good.

[00:04:05]>> Has to rhyme. Just real quick disclaimer for our viewers at home. Uh we should have put this in the beginning, but this is maybe not for all audiences. The first five minutes of our conversation.

[00:04:17]>> Well, we're Yeah. I mean, we're >> Is anything for all audiences?

[00:04:21]>> It just jumped into like really >> I don't think our show's for 12 year olds.

[00:04:25]>> That's true.

[00:04:27]which um speaking of that [laughter] if anyone I just want I want to start off with again >> uh if anyone has any comments or questions or artwork they want to share with us questions for us or com uh they can certainly comment on all the episodes but anything any topics you want us to cover or artwork you want to share feel free to >> do so you can leave questions in the comment section of these episodes or if you want to be more discreet and send something to us Feel free as well as sending artwork to us, you can do so with a email that we have which is wf to >> tobinstitute.org.

[00:05:07]>> And we on our last episode I just recalling how much fun we had. We launched in this whole direction because somebody sent us a work of art.

[00:05:14]>> A beautiful work of art, >> which is good because we don't have a script ever. [laughter] >> This may be apparent.

[00:05:20]>> Please send us some art. Please send us something to talk about. [laughter] >> Okay. All right, I got something for you to talk about. Okay, >> give us something to talk about.

[00:05:30]>> So, a few months ago, somebody accused us of being Jovenianists.

[00:05:37]>> Jovenianists. No, I don't know what a Jovinianist was.

[00:05:41]>> Jovial.

[00:05:42]>> Uh, >> no. That would be jovialists.

[00:05:44]>> Okay.

[00:05:45]>> Jovinist. Yeah. Heretic from the uh >> I can't read anything on that screen one.

[00:05:50]>> Fourth century. [snorts] >> You're expecting a 56-y old man to read that size font.

[00:05:53]>> No, we'll make it bigger. Well, >> Joinian was an opponent of Christian aseticism in the 4th century >> and was condemned as a heretic at cinnids convened in Rome.

[00:06:07]>> His modern counterparts are Bill Donahe and Mike Man in there. Yeah, there it is.

[00:06:12]>> Where did it say that?

[00:06:15]>> Uh, >> stop being jovial.

[00:06:17]>> Okay. Our information about him is derived principally from the work of Jerome in two books. Da da da. He was native. Da present in Turkey. Get me to the beef here, Juan.

[00:06:27]>> So, we're gonna get the to what the the heresy >> actually. Go ahead, Mike. No. Uh, Bill, give us a read there. Thanks, Chris.

[00:06:34][laughter] >> Mike's the youngest.

[00:06:37]>> Dyslexic.

[00:06:38]>> Okay. It's hard to read. [laughter] He was Joinianism is an anti- aesthetic movement that has its origins in the 4th century.

[00:06:47]uh he criticized the monastic movement and argued for the equality of marriage and celibacy period. Okay.

[00:06:58]>> Okay. Well, equal what? That's a loaded statement. What is equality of what?

[00:07:03]>> Of the vocations. There's no distinction between cel but just those word I hate the the when words are not defined and they're just plopped out there like >> um >> it's Wikipedia.

[00:07:13]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:07:14]>> Okay. Let me let me read to you the comment.

[00:07:16]>> Yeah, read the comment >> that posted.

[00:07:21]>> I kept him anonymous.

[00:07:24]>> So, can you see that or would you >> I can't read it for the life of me, but I see it. You read it one, please.

[00:07:29]>> So, it says marriage, marriage, marriage, dating, dating, dating. Where is the call to perpetual virginity to celibacy? The the traditional teaching of the church is not merely that celibacy is better than consummated marriage. The traditional teaching is that even in marriage sex will always be tainted due to the always present concupisence concupisence in the act.

[00:07:52]Ever read Ambrose Augustine Jerome Gregory the Great.

[00:07:56]>> Back then it was very popular for married couples to be completely abstinent.

[00:08:00]>> Oh God have mercy. Now it's all about how holy sex and bonding um can this Jovenianism stop that's what it that's what this is >> can the fear of the body and sexuality stop how about that was what our last episode was about >> actually was yeah >> uh the the let I always want to start with whatever element of truth I can find in what somebody is saying >> uh so let's look for that first. And I I just want to lift up this person, whoever wrote this. He's a brother or a sister and he's going through his own wrestling match with being human and with fallen humanity and what the call to virtue is, what Christianity is, and everybody's on his own, >> which is noble and beautiful.

[00:08:51]>> Everybody's on his own journey and >> we're all on that.

[00:08:53]>> We got to wrestle with our stuff. So, [clears throat] he's wrestling with his stuff and I I bless him. But I also want to invite him invite him. There's there's more to see, brother.

[00:09:08]There's there's beauty to discover the proper I want to the scripture that's coming to my mind as the >> wait right sorry. Right before you do that, can we establish exactly what is he saying though? What he's saying is we are spending too much time praising marriage, >> marriage, marriage, marriage, >> praising sexual uh love in marriage. And he's drawing currents from what others have said in Christianity that I would put it this way. He didn't put it this way are are lean in a direction that John Paul II described as the interpretation of suspicion. Mhm.

[00:09:50]>> He is seems to me coming from a point of view that sanctifies and normalizes what John Paul II calls the interpretation of suspicion. The interpretation of suspicion is that is tainted. It will always be tainted.

[00:10:08]That's the way it is. There's no possibility of real inner transformation here.

[00:10:14]It's tainted by sin. It will always be tainted by sin. And the it is >> marriage and sexual. marriage and sexuality. [clears throat] >> So, we must flee from that because it's tainted. And if you really want to be holy, be a virgin, be celibate, >> and even if you're married, you know, okay, you'll have a few kids, maybe more than a few kids, but then you give up sex because it's tainted and it's of this world. And the redemption really doesn't get in there to to to rearrange that or or or or set that a right. So we just estu that and we run over here and live our spiritual life divorced from all that tainted [clears throat] sexual stuff.

[00:11:01]Uh that's what that's am I?

[00:11:04]>> No, I would agree that accurately reflecting finger thought it. And so he is accusing us. So that that view would be heretical that that would be a heresy of manarchism, a dualism, the things we've talked about before, a kind of nasticism, special knowledge.

[00:11:19]>> But for our viewers who didn't hear our previous episodes, maybe unpack.

[00:11:22]>> Yeah. So this this idea that always the flesh is is identified as fallen and is always suspicious. Uh and so but JP2 says this is a loophole to avoid the call of the gospel which is to live an incarnate spirituality and see the inherent goodness of the body and sexuality. So we're being accused of of a kind of heresy that overly glorifies the body and just wants marriage marriage marriage which I don't think we've ever said I think. And when we teach here at the institute, we're constantly talking about the objective superiority of celibacy for the kingdom as it's one foot in heaven with the heavenly marriage. But as JP2 articulates, there's also the subjective dimension of the sacrament of marriage.

[00:12:04]And some are called to marriage and some are called to celibacy for the kingdom.

[00:12:07]>> Well, we also talked about celibacy and [clears throat] marriage. I mean, we have talked about >> chastity.

[00:12:12]>> Chastity. Sorry. Yeah. No, but yeah, chastity and marriage. So that we and we've never said that sex [laughter] sex is the >> I'll just be quiet for a little bit.

[00:12:21]>> We've never taught that sex is the goal and all should be married to experience.

[00:12:25]Of >> course not that.

[00:12:27]>> So we are faithful to the magisterial teaching. We're faithful to the anthropology of John Paul 2.

[00:12:32]>> That's it's it's an proper order ordering of things.

[00:12:35]>> The scripture that comes to my mind that we we need to spend some time on here and I do I said a few moments ago I want to affirm whatever I can and what he's saying and I'll get there.

[00:12:44]The scripture that I think should frame the whole conversation is Ephesians 5:es 31-32.

[00:12:52]>> For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother, be joined to his wife. The two will become one flesh.

[00:12:58]This is a great mystery.

[00:13:02]Pause right there.

[00:13:07]The union of husband and wife in one flesh.

[00:13:16]I'll use the Greek here. Is a mega [clears throat] >> mysterion.

[00:13:23]>> Mega. And I want to say to our I'm assuming it's a guy. [laughter] Do you know one if it's a guy? Okay. I'm assuming it's a guy. I would be quite surprised if it's a woman because what I what I hear in his in his question or challenge is the male struggle with lust. Yeah, that's what I hear.

[00:13:45]>> I do too.

[00:13:46]>> Um and I want to invite you, brother, into this mega mysterion.

[00:13:57]And I'll invite you to this. John Paul II says that this passage I'm quoting in Ephesians 5 is just as important in understanding celibacy properly as it is in understanding marriage properly >> because what is the next line this is a mega mysterion this is a great mystery what is the union of man and woman in one flesh I don't hear in his challenge I don't hear in his heart an appreciation ation of the mega mystery of human sexuality.

[00:14:33]I hear fear, suspicion.

[00:14:39]It only causes me to sin and that scares me.

[00:14:44]And so I need to take shelter and refuge in this purely spiritual virginal realm over here. Yes, >> that's what I'm hearing.

[00:14:52]>> Yeah.

[00:14:54]And so I'm inviting him and all our listeners if we have that and I I know that territory. I know it well.

[00:15:04]It is scary. We are broken. We are fallen. The gravitational pull of lust here is real.

[00:15:16]And if we just go with that, it will lead to our and others in our lives utter destruction.

[00:15:24]Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's what I want to affirm, right? In in what he's saying.

[00:15:28]He is waving a flag and saying, "Hey, this is dangerous territory, the realm of sexuality." Yeah. Yeah, it is. If if all we have is is the lustful fallen reality, well, we're, pardon the pun, we're screwed. Um, but there's another way to see. There's another way to think. There's another way to experience this. This is a great mystery. And it refers to Christ and the church.

[00:16:02]Christ and the church are married, but they're married in a virginal mystical union.

[00:16:10]>> That does not involve genital union.

[00:16:14]>> Here we have genital union. The two become one flesh. Here we have this virginal mystical union. Uh they do become one body Christ and the church.

[00:16:27]But the manner in which we become one body is through the sacraments. Baptism, Eucharist.

[00:16:36]But let's also recall marriage is one of those sacraments that proclaims and really efficaciously communicates this mystery of the marriage of Christ in the church is communicated >> sacramentally by this mystery. The two become one flesh. So it's not that the genital sexual reality is over here and the Christ Church mystical virginal reality is way over there and there the tween shall meet sacramentality.

[00:17:07]Ephesians 5 John Paul II says it is of particular merit that St. Paul brings these two mysteries the virginal mystery of union the [clears throat] genital mystery of union the marital reality. brings these two communions together and makes of them one great mystery of communion.

[00:17:31]>> Okay. I don't hear any appreciation for that in this guy's challenge. Go ahead.

[00:17:34]>> This is the word becoming flesh.

[00:17:36]>> Yes.

[00:17:37]>> This is the word becoming fresh as we return to it and keep talking about it.

[00:17:41]It's so important to keep talking about this. And I sense too there the fear of that sign and all because it's so supercharged and such a mega mystery to understand the great mystery I have to press into this to marriage. I understand that there's fear there but you cannot depart from the sign >> right that how do we know the antichrist he who denies Christ come in the flesh into this very sign. So, what's the first line of this comment again? Juan, marriage, marriage, marriage. And then >> dating, dating, dating, >> dating, dating, dating.

[00:18:14]>> Do we even talk about dating? I mean, maybe it I'm just struck by the triune marriage, marriage, marriage.

[00:18:21]>> Like, we're Holy, holy, holy, su. Please God, I'm glad you're picking up the vibe because I hope we keep saying that.

[00:18:29]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:30]>> Because it is all marriage. We cannot depart from this sign.

[00:18:34]>> And let me quote JP back up. They're connected. Yeah. And then yeah, >> keep going. Just just [clears throat] I want to back this up with our holy father.

[00:18:42]>> Yeah.

[00:18:42]>> The saint John Paul II >> says we cannot understand what the church is as the sacrament of Christ's body in this world.

[00:18:51]>> Yes.

[00:18:52]>> Unless unless we keep in mind the great mystery of the two becoming one flesh of the two being called to fatherhood and motherhood. Motherhood. great mystery of Christ and the church does not exist apart from he says the one flesh mystery of marriage.

[00:19:10]>> Yeah.

[00:19:12]>> So yeah, you'll you'll find writings of certain saints in the tradition who demonstrate a certain suspicion towards the body and sexuality. That's part of our fallen humanity. We mustn't sanctify that suspicion. John Paul II says the interpretation of suspicion. And by this he means it's always tainted. It's always going to be tainted. You can't find the holy there. We just have to kind of accept it because it leads to babies and we got to keep the human race going. That's what he means by the interpretation of suspicion.

[00:19:49]>> He says the interpretation of suspicion is the antithesis of the meaning of life.

[00:19:58]Do you want to unpack that, Bill? Why is it the antithesis of the meaning of life?

[00:20:03]>> Say it again because I'm looking up St. Augustine.

[00:20:05]>> Yeah. So he says the interpretation of suspicion, this idea that I can't find the holy in sexuality. It's just tainted and will always be.

[00:20:15]>> He says that is the antithesis of the meaning of life >> because the meaning of life is marriage >> is is love. It is. And love must become flesh. Love is is union. Yes.

[00:20:31]>> And it's self-sacrificial.

[00:20:32]>> Yes. And this is death. Like the only way to communion of persons is a death to self entering into the great mystery, which is a theme that we've talked about quite a bit.

[00:20:43]>> We spent a lot of time talking about the relationship and the necessity for the partners to die to to the self.

[00:20:51]>> I'm thinking of your line, love becomes itself only sacrificially.

[00:20:55]>> Yeah. unpack that lyric for us.

[00:20:58]>> Well, yeah, just that we I don't know when, but we've talked about this tendency for us. She doesn't do it for me. There's this desire that I have and she's not fulfilling it. Well, that's just the me me monster speaking.

[00:21:12][clears throat] In order to fully get what what we truly >> desire, we need to learn to die to the self, to sacrifice our self for the other. And it's only in that action that we fully are are given what we desire, which is to be raised up to divine love, to experience a foreshadowing of what heaven is.

[00:21:34]>> What is your song? I'm >> peeling peeling. The turnabout.

[00:21:37]>> The turnabout. Enter. Help us. Well, that's what the whole song is about.

[00:21:41]Learning to turn.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah. The >> bring us into that song.

[00:21:46]>> Yeah. Yeah, the turnabout is um the turnup being just like the changing of the metaninoia, like the changing of um of your disposition >> and your direction >> and your direction. And one could be you can look at it as like a direction or you can look at from an internal gaze, a naval gazing disposition to a heavenly gazing disposition.

[00:22:07]And um yeah, so the line is um I can't I'm not good with on the spot, but um >> I say only love becomes it. What's the line?

[00:22:17]>> Yeah, only love becomes itself sacrificially. So I'll bleed it out.

[00:22:20]>> Bleed it out.

[00:22:22]>> Uh you hold you >> hold suspicion, you hold doubt.

[00:22:26]>> So I will so I will sing this song until these words can can thaw the turnabout.

[00:22:30]>> You got to put this in the in the in the show notes. This is a turnabout.

[00:22:33]>> Find Mike's song and put in the show notes. What's the line leading up to this part? So, it's it's uh towards the end.

[00:22:40]>> Um, >> I wanted to love you, but I couldn't see. Only love becomes itself sacrificially.

[00:22:46]>> So, I will bleed it out.

[00:22:48]>> So, I will bleed it out. You hold suspicion, you hold doubt. So, I will sing the song until these words can thaw the turnabout. Which is also >> that's my prayer for this man. That's my prayer for him. What I mean by that is to to reveal to the partner that I am really uh >> in a holy way giving myself to them but it's also I am singing this song until the [clears throat] words can thaw the turnabout within myself. It's a continuous journey of not well I' I've figured it out therefore I'm good. It's every day I need to sing the song not for you to see it in me and for me to see it in myself and live it out. It's a prayer. Yeah, it's one of your best works of art, Mike. That's awesome.

[00:23:29]>> Because I don't have a home without you.

[00:23:32]Yeah, it's going back to the >> home.

[00:23:34]So, this is I think this guy >> this guy who's given us this challenge, >> he's homeless. like he's looking he's he's looking to to find a place of rest in his heart with things he's he's heard us say on this channel and he's not finding where it rests because he's dealing with a profound internal conflict.

[00:24:01]Um and and he has dis he has he has settled into this idea >> that holiness and his experience of sexuality are incompatible. And the truth of the matter is he's probably correct. Meaning his experience of sexuality has been one riddled with lust and selfishness.

[00:24:24]>> And that's sorry but to go back to the song others. Can you go to the top of the lyrics? It's that's why it starts off that I come from the land where rivers freeze. Implying that we come from this place of brokenness.

[00:24:37]>> Wow. Mike.

[00:24:38]>> Where we where we >> whether it's unintentionally or intentionally, the flowing water that could potentially be within us is frozen.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:47]>> And our hearts become frozen. And that's why it ends with the thawing. It's an acknowledgment of >> this is the true way is to consistently pray into it, to be open to it, to self-sacrifice, >> to experience authentic love and thaw those rivers within us that could be that really are the connected to the the living water.

[00:25:09]>> Can you go up one to the top? There's a there's something in in one of the verses that I really like. I come from the R uh where the frozen bone holds pure every tempo, every tone. So every bleeding heart, crack seed can cry where it is sown.

[00:25:25]>> There's a there's an invitation to recognize the Passover that is required from the freeze to the thaw so that the rivers of lifegiving water can flow in and through our bodies. Yes.

[00:25:44]In and through our sexuality.

[00:25:47]You speak of a bleeding heart, a cracked seed, and and this cry. It's it's going to involve real suffering. M >> it's going to it's and this is what I want to affirm what this guy is saying that we can't just have this happy whistling song about sexuality unless or until or in as much as we have gone through this bleeding cracking and crying that allows this turnabout this inner thaw >> where we are able to see with different eyes. I I I another scripture that comes to mind is they look but they do not see. Right? I think this guy is looking at sexuality but not seeing it. He's not seeing it as this mega mystery. Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God. The interpretation of suspicion is like digging our heels in and saying, "I'm never going to see God in that. The only way I can see God is by fleeing all that."

[00:26:57]>> And so that creates this ruptured view that Christian virginity is one thing over here and Christian marriage is this totally other thing over here.

[00:27:08]>> Yeah. Whereas the authentic Christian vision is that these two realities are much more closely intertwined than we realize because both reveal each in its own way but in complimentary ways.

[00:27:25]The same mystery. What is the same mystery?

[00:27:29]We're destined for this eternal union with God in the flesh. Hey, if you really like Bill Dunahe's genetically amazing hair, follow us, subscribe, and give us a rating on whatever platform you're hearing us on. And if you've already done those things, thank you so much. Hello, my friends. I just wanted to take a brief moment to share with you that if you enjoy what you're hearing on the podcast, we also do live events all around the world. So, if you're interested in joining us, the details are below. And we'll see you on the road soon.

[00:28:04]And God's language to describe that ultimate union with him is spousal, is marital.

[00:28:12]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:28:15]>> Can we can I go ahead throw in now? I just want to affirm his um >> you know, he kind of said in the snarky way, but ever heard of Ambrose, Augustine.

[00:28:24]>> Uh I Yes, we have. First off, and I just want to say like Augustine, [snorts] I'm just thinking about Augustine's own journey of sliding into Manachian dualistic agnostic cults because of his own wrestling with his flesh. I'm not making no judgment on this guy. I we have no idea what his >> struggles might be. Um we're all struggling trying to figure it out.

[00:28:45]>> But Augustine went through this whole wrestling match with the flesh and just uh and crying out. [clears throat] But his resolute and he's a father of the church, father of the church. So 4th century St. Augustine in his confessions comes to grace and peace and reconciliation with this and listen to this from his confessions.

[00:29:06]Late have I loved you oh beauty ever ancient ever new. Oh >> late have I loved you. You were within me but I was outside and it was there that I searched for you. In my unloliness I plunged into the lovely things which you created. You were with me but I was not with you. created things kept me from you. Yet if they had not been in you, they would not have been at all. Now listen to this because he so you can see a fear of sexuality fear your fear of the >> and I've idol tries and now I I have to reject it. Listen to how he redeems every one of his senses.

[00:29:42]You called, you shouted, and you broke through my deafness. You flashed, you shone, and you dispelled my blindness.

[00:29:49]You breathed your fragrance on me. I drew in breath. And now I pant for you.

[00:29:54]>> Mhm.

[00:29:55]>> What the heck? I have tasted you, now I hunger and thirst for more. You touched me and I burned for your peace.

[00:30:04]>> I mean, here's a man now reconciled with his sexuality, his body, his senses in an integrated, chasted, holy, erotic, hear that the right way like a capital E aeros. Now our hearts are restless till they rest in you. Right?

[00:30:21]It's not a tamp it down, shove it down, bury it, point fingers at it, reject it, be suspicious of it, but let me open it up as we said, right? All my senses to God. Augustine's like the he's the ever everpresent model for us who are wrestling with this stuff. Just to put that out there.

[00:30:41]>> Yeah. Listen to this. I'm looking up some of my quotes from Augustine. does say I have this in my list of Augustine quotes and this is where he's he he he hasn't yet reached a level of maturity in his thinking he says the the genitals are condemned to serve only but in sin >> right so there are statements like this that you'll find that saints have made that does not mean Thomas Aquinas uh made a statement contrary to the immaculate conception of So I'm just saying that to say just because a saint said it does not mean [clears throat] it's >> they have their own path of purification.

[00:31:24]>> Yeah.

[00:31:24]>> Uh the the and someone could say well just because John Paul II said it doesn't mean that you know he's got it.

[00:31:32]Yeah. Okay. But what is what is the trajectory of the tradition here?

[00:31:40]I think we can look at the growth of the church's understanding like the growth of of a human life. There was an infancy period in the church.

[00:31:51]uh there was uh coming to maturity in the church and and maybe we if I were to assess where the church is right now in that analogy I would say in the 20th century and into the 21st the church is going through puberty. I was going to say >> the church is going through puberty because >> if you look at all that has been said >> on marriage and human sexuality from the magisterium the the official magisterium of the Catholic Church over 2,000 years.

[00:32:26]I remember this was 30 years ago. I was in my classroom at the John Paulu Institute in Washington DC and my professor Dr. William May, such a character, comes into class one day holding like 12 volumes of of big thick book books and he walks in and he plops it on the the desk and he says, "This is a collection of magestisterial teaching on marriage and human sexuality over 2,000 years." He was a kind of short old guy. He looked kind of hunched over and his suspenders his his pants like came up to his nipples and his suspenders were like this long. [laughter] >> Uh >> it's a great visual. Thank you.

[00:33:10]>> And and then he took uh two volumes off from the bottom. They were chronologically stacked to the top.

[00:33:21]So the latest volume was on top, the oldest was on the bottom. He took two volumes out from the bottom and said, "All of these, the top 10 were from the 20th century."

[00:33:34]>> Whoa.

[00:33:35]>> And then he took another, I think, two or three volumes off the bottom. And so now we're left with uh seven or eight volumes. And he said, "All of these are from John Paul II."

[00:33:47]>> Holy cow.

[00:33:49]>> There it is.

[00:33:51]>> And why? Right. The church is responding to the crisis of its time.

[00:33:57]>> And the crisis of our age, of our day, is a sexual crisis.

[00:34:06]>> It's a crisis that is attacking marriage and the family. Uh, and I'll quote here from Sister Lucia, the one of the visionaries from Fatima.

[00:34:15]>> Mhm. who said the final battle between the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of Satan will be fought over marriage and the family.

[00:34:24]>> We're living through that now.

[00:34:27]>> And so if we're talking more now about marriage in this age of the church than in previous ages, we are. It's not if we are.

[00:34:37]>> Yeah.

[00:34:38]>> There's a reason for that. Mhm.

[00:34:40]>> And I think part of the reason is the church to go with this analogy if it's accurate. I think an argument could be made. The church in her development is going through a kind of puberty, an awakening to this mystery which has brought a richness in our theological understanding and a an organic development of that understanding that was absolutely essential to overcome. Here I'll quote George Wigle from his biography on John Paul II. He says, "The theology of the body may be the decisive moment in casting out the Manachian demon from Catholic moral theology." Mhm.

[00:35:23]>> I would make one adjustment to that statement and I would say from Catholic moral theologians.

[00:35:29]>> Mhm.

[00:35:30]>> Because the official Catholic moral theology on this subject, what the magisterium has accepted has not been tainted by manism.

[00:35:40]But Catholic theologians over the centuries have been tainted [clears throat] >> by this fearful, suspicious approach to the body and sex. And that's not just a Catholic thing. It's not just Christians who have had this fearful approach. It's a human reality. We the ambiguity towards sexuality goes so deep in the human story. We we just without the gift of the redemption, without this thawing of [clears throat] our frozen rivers, without this cracking open and crying out and experiencing a turnabout, as you so beautifully put in your song, Mike, without that, John Paul II says we're just condemned to have a pendulum swing >> in society from one extreme of a pessimistic, fearful, suspicious, puritanical approach and then the pendulum is going to go way over here into a libidenous uh indulgent pornographic approach. And if those are the only two options, it seems to me our challenger here who's written to us only sees these as the as the options. The the that's bad, that's wrong, that's dirty, let's be holy about it and run away from it because it's bad, dirty, and holy. We either [clears throat] have that or the pornographic. If those are the only two choices, of course, the puritanical fearful approach is going to seem more holy.

[00:37:09]The gift of the church's reflection over 2,000 [clears throat] years, which has matured at this season of theological reflection and development, if I could sum it up, it is this.

[00:37:25]It's time for us to enter the great mystery >> ever more deeply. Ever more deeply. John Paul II said in his letter to families in 1994, the great mystery of Ephesians 5 is threatened in us and all around us.

[00:37:43]And it's threatened not only by this pornographic levitonist [clears throat] indulgent approach. It is equally threatened although from another angle by this puritanical fearful manachian approach. And he invites us he invites us and I invite this guy bless you brother. I invite you as John Paul II invites you to allow Ephesians 5 the one flesh union of man and woman is a great mystery and it refers to Christ in the church. M >> I invite you along with John Paul II to allow that to purify you of those deepseated habits of manarchism of that fearful suspicious approach to sexuality.

[00:38:34]He says this approach might and may always be I think you already referenced this bill might and may always be a loophole >> to avoid the requirements of the gospel.

[00:38:46]>> What are the requirements of the gospel?

[00:38:49]Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God. Boom. There it is in Well, that's easy. [laughter] >> And what I love though, the three of us having this conversation is two theologians and an artist. Yeah.

[00:39:19]>> Right. The the artist's angle on this >> and I really do believe Mike, your song, The Turnabout, >> that was collect >> is is one of your greatest works of art.

[00:39:31]And I I may I invite Can we just listen to that? Juan, can you pull that off?

[00:39:35]>> Oh, that's awkward.

[00:39:36]>> No. Well, you just deal with it.

[00:39:37]>> Turn around.

[00:39:38]>> Yeah, turn.

[00:39:39]>> Turn about.

[00:39:40]>> This is Mike. I want you to receive >> yourself.

[00:39:44]>> yourself. You have gift of your own art.

[00:39:46]>> Allow myself to receive.

[00:39:47]>> I want I want you to realize that in playing this, >> this is a gift for our listeners. It's a great way to take us out on >> And as as you're loading it, Juan Oh, you're already ready. I was going to say >> don't do do the Yeah, that's the good video.

[00:40:01]>> Well, they're all good videos >> if you don't say so yourself.

[00:40:05]>> By the way, all these videos are available on YouTube. Like man, >> I was going to say that this is one of the This is We just spent 30 minutes unpacking an answer to that criticism, but you can also do it in a three-minute song.

[00:40:19]>> Yeah.

[00:40:19]>> More more potently. Amen. And this is an invitation to our to our uh interrogator um that maybe the best way is to enter into this thought and receive a truth through beauty.

[00:40:31]>> Yeah. And and the rivers the what I love about your particular gift of songwriting, Mike, is you take a reality from your life. You do come from the land where the rivers freeze.

[00:40:41]>> Yeah.

[00:40:42]>> You come from Wisconsin.

[00:40:43]>> That's right. But you're you're take just as Jesus did looking around at his natural surroundings [clears throat] and say how can I teach the gospel from from the stuff of the earth.

[00:40:52]>> I come from the land where the rivers freeze becomes the metaphor of >> I need to let >> I love it.

[00:40:58]>> What's what's in my heart thaw so that rivers Jesus says rivers of living water would flow in and through us.

[00:41:07]>> Yeah. And uh that's what I've loved about this work with theology of the body and specifically being an artist is I've always understood things more clear in metaphor and poetry >> because it there's so many more words in the metaphor and words are not my gift.

[00:41:30]Um, >> what do when you say there's so many more words in the metaphor, you mean like the metaphor contains an image? The image has the words are only trying to explain >> the truth of the creation around us, but it's always going to fall short. And I feel like art makes art reflects on a reality in a way that the words can can only scratch the surface >> because it it lifts us to this place of reflection and pondering that comes closer to the true meaning of things.

[00:42:07]>> Yeah. And so when I've my journey of getting into my faith 20 years ago, um what profoundly hit me was one of the first things that I picked up from John Paul 2 was the echo of the heart because as I read his words and read the writings from you and other theologians, it was putting into word the resonance that my heart always had.

[00:42:36]>> Yes. that I couldn't ever say and I still can't say. That's why I love sitting in these chairs because I'm listening to you guys. I'm like, I'm not going to say anything because you guys are nailing it with your words. Um, but I I I mean this humbly. Well, I mean this I mean this in in uh in uh in light of the reflection of the echo of the heart.

[00:43:01]Every one of those words rang true like it was written in my soul for me to you.

[00:43:05]That's Bob Dylan. like I know what you're saying >> not here but here >> and [clears throat] the studying of of theology of the body has allowed here and here to come together >> and it makes sense. So a song for me like this song is my attempt to auntie in put my my money in on the table of that cosmic conversation of what it means to be human because I can't write chapters and chapters and chapters and laying out the church fathers and expounding on their their thinking but I can >> share well this is what it all means to me and what's beautiful about participating in art as an artist when you have that pure intention of I'm really trying to know you Lord and you respond by creating something is oftent times the Lord affirms and teaches you through the creation that you did. So sometimes you'll write a song like Turnabout and it's coming from this honest place of conversation where I'm putting out my two cents and all of a sudden something is revealed to me by what has been put out that technically I wrote but it didn't come from me.

[00:44:22]>> I I brother >> that's the heart of the artist.

[00:44:24]>> You do it so well.

[00:44:26]>> I think that's what a lot of artists when they say like I didn't write this one it was given to me. I think what they're saying is I genuinely entered into a conversation with something bigger than myself transcendentally or transcendental >> and from that place I I re I something was revealed to me that >> yes >> had profound meaning.

[00:44:47]>> I'm reminded of of Pope Benedict's statement that a a theologian who does not love music, art, poetry, nature can be dangerous.

[00:44:57]>> Yes. Because we need to have >> that place in our heart awakened and aware that because you're exactly right, poetry, metaphor, art explains or takes us into an a taste of the mystery beyond what mere uh theological discourse can.

[00:45:17]>> And that's why the word became flesh.

[00:45:21]>> Yes. Amen. because we needed to see it because as we said on this show and other episodes, it's all you need to read it poetically. You need to comprehend it poetically because the the just saying it alone is one thing, but when you see the cross and the crucifix and the resurrection and the tomb or the tomb and the resurrection, it's actually getting closer to the greater mystery that we're meant to take away and and comprehend.

[00:45:54]>> Amen.

[00:45:55]>> So, here's the gift, Mike's song, The Turnabout. I hope you like it. I like it. Michael, [laughter] I come from the land where the rivers freeze.

[00:46:15]Where time is a season counted [music] by the leaves.

[00:46:21]The frozen bone [music] holds pure every tempo, every tone.

[00:46:29]So every bleeding heart cracks [music] seek and cry where it is sown.

[00:46:40]But I don't have a [music] home without you.

[00:46:49][music] No, I don't have a home [music] without you.

[00:47:01]Time is a runner who can change his [music] stride.

[00:47:06]I hope memory because a feeling is dying.

[00:47:12]And there was once a dream, but it burned [music and singing] off like steam.

[00:47:20]And every noise made in this empty church echoes places I have been.

[00:47:31]Because I don't have [music] a home without you.

[00:47:39][music] No, I don't have a home without [music] you.

[00:47:51]>> [music] >> Yeah, [music] I get it when they say, "Boy, you worry about your soul." But I've [music] been hanging on to mercy since the day I been my soul. And I am punching through [music] the dirt because he keeps filling that same hole, too.

[00:48:27]I wanted [music] to love you, but I couldn't see.

[00:48:32]Only love becomes itself sacrificially.

[00:48:35][music] So I will bleed it out.

[00:48:42]You hold suspicion, you hold doubt.

[00:48:47]So I will [music] sing the song until [singing] these words give the turn about because [music] I don't have a home.

[00:49:02]Without you I don't [music] have a home without you.

[00:49:31]>> [music] >> Good art, Mr. Manonyie.

[00:49:38]>> Thank you. And I just want to acknowledge Daniel Conkl who filmed that and worked on that with me, a dear brother, student of ours, passed a couple years ago. So just >> if there's any experiences that you're having of of peace, just offer it up for him and his family.