Duty & Profit: dissecting graft allegations against ex-CDS, implications

Añadido: 2026-06-07

[00:00:13]Hello and welcome to this edition of the verified with me Mustafa Kawo.

[00:00:18]Today I have I have Dr. Usman Gajigo who is with me to discuss the recent allegations of graft against the passing of the former CDS Mr. Mama Cham Lieutenant General Mama Cham regard general or Lieutenant General >> I don't know which kind of general [laughter] what kind of general >> yeah Dr. Gigo, welcome to the program.

[00:00:41]>> Thank you for having me.

[00:00:42]>> Beautiful, beautiful. This is many times being here. Um, let's begin with the issue of the we address the before we go to the specifics, we address the overall sentiments that it arouses in you. I mean, >> when you had and read about all the allegations, I mean, of corruption, I mean, there were some that were not verified. There were some that were subject of journalistic work. what went through you like what what what did you think about it?

[00:01:12]>> Well, I mean um again, you know, a mixed reaction. I was definitely uh not surprised that there is yet again another corruption scandal in the Anabaro administration. This has become a very uh frequent occurrence.

[00:01:27]>> Uh but in this particular case from this uh former CDS um >> yeah um what I have to say I was a bit surprised with the with the level and how brazen it was. Mhm.

[00:01:38]>> Um you know, of course, we we we know the different aspects of um you know, the different things that were found.

[00:01:46]>> If that many things have been discovered, chances are it wasn't restricted to to just that. Those were just the the I mean >> tip of an iceberg.

[00:01:54]>> Yeah. Just the tip of an iceberg. There has to be more.

[00:01:57]>> Of course, in any investigation like this, uh you you know only a few aspects can be documented and uncovered.

[00:02:04]>> Yeah.

[00:02:04]>> Yeah.

[00:02:04]>> Yeah. In fact, the allegations are quite many and I have to say um not all of them could be verified and I would think that that is not necessarily due to lack of evidence probably due to lack of time >> to exhaust on the subject matter. Um what do you think I mean at this level I mean we know uh corruption can be perverse pervasive in the system >> but having an institution being corrupt or the leader of the military being corrupt. It's it's a whole different thing alto together, isn't it? Because I mean we've seen how that has done in in drugre situations like Genebisa or >> or state capture in Egypt >> or the so-called military industrial complex elsewhere. I mean military corruption is not just any corruption.

[00:02:57]>> No, absolutely. I mean uh military is a I mean is a special institution or I suppose you could say that for many institutions they're all special in their own way >> but it is unique I mean here you have this uh body here that uh in the case of Gambia I mean it's been responsible for a derailment of our democracy >> I think one is correct I mean one would not be wrong to say our fledging democracy under you know Jawra that was still in the process of being built.

[00:03:26]>> Yeah. So we already know that it was an institution that needed significant amount of reforms.

[00:03:33]>> Yeah.

[00:03:34]>> Um our worry you know we thought the problem was largely an issue of um you know governance and a reform that is needed.

[00:03:42]>> But um adding this level of corruption to the mix uh that we know and you know as we said earlier there could be a lot more that we don't know you know we'll only find out if a proper investigation is done. Uh it is really concerning um because it's um you know not only would the institution not be performing what it's supposed to do >> but then it it really could be a vehicle towards you know um starting something really insidious in the country when you have such a powerful uh security branch that is rotten from the top as has been demonstrated here. you when you look at the allegations in specific I mean so for example you look at operation of a board >> okay um in the first place you taking of a board from Navy >> um that has not been subjected to any court proceeding >> is questionable but then for me the the the the whole matter also relating to having to be sitting at that office where you have to take care of all defense matters but yet also have to be have in mind uh money that is going to be coming from >> Tang in the evening having to be preoccupied by that and it's quite a thing isn't it >> no I mean it basically just means that that official uh they will no longer prioritize their main duties and responsibilities is you know what is the role of the military the government armed forces is to first and foremost protect the territorial integrity of the country and you have other you know secondary rules but somebody who is primarily concerned about you know how what's their daily catch from the board um assigning actual um soldiers to you know as employees there that person has demonstrated through that action that you know you know their respons responsibilities from what in terms of what they're supposed to >> um carry out >> that's going to be far far secondary in their mind they are going to be primarily focused in their you know their pocket >> but again also in fact I mean I was speaking to a lot of uh military officers >> but I mean if I if I may add ahead even >> you know this is this one is very important to stress uh beyond the issue of not doing your job the question also becomes if If you are primarily focused on making money, >> yeah.

[00:06:21]>> Uh the the logical thing also it means that you become very susceptible to any kind of inducement to do something for money where you know whether or not it's illegal or beyond that whether or not it's completely counter to the national security of the country. But also the other thing about I mean you've made mention of having navy officers at any point working on this boat who are serving uh in the army but aside from that also I mean having to I mean this I mean the selling of the fish and the proceeds are going to be of course taken to the CD well allegedly to the CDS >> but then I mean the issue of I mean boats that are taken from migrants.

[00:07:10]Shouldn't it have gone through some kind of a court process?

[00:07:13]>> Yeah.

[00:07:14]>> Then when the court decides that the navy sells it, they they sell it.

[00:07:18]>> Exactly.

[00:07:19]>> But do you not think that giving the manner in which it happened? I mean, I heard somewhere somebody saying that the CDS reportedly released an audio where he said that uh Msin was the one who came to him to say, "Well, boss Navy has a boat." Mhm.

[00:07:38]>> And Min being his personal assistant >> and that how about you go there and procure. So it would seem as though it's a practice isn't it? It doesn't doesn't it come across like that?

[00:07:49]>> Yeah. I mean that's the disturbing thing here. It does um all the various elements of this um malpractice here that's been uncovered. Nothing seems um like a new practice. It seems like you know these are sort of things that have been ongoing for a while. Uh which is why it will be very important for an investigation to be done to see uh the the depth you know with which um you know the number of officers who have not been named so far who may be involved how far back this has gone uh what you know to what degree the previous leadership is aware of uh this questionable practice so I mean uh yeah I mean if you look at really what's happening because both have been intercepted for quite a while >> um you know these People trafficking human beings have I mean people going to people smugglers. Yes.

[00:08:40]>> So every time you hear that the government authorities >> we now need to go and count those boats.

[00:08:45]>> Yeah. They've been stopping all these boats. So it's it's it would be important for us to find out do an accounting what has happened to those boats.

[00:08:52]>> Those boats. Yeah.

[00:08:52]>> Yeah. In fact what when people are stopped there should be a judicial process.

[00:08:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

[00:08:58]>> You seize their property that should be a basis for it.

[00:09:01]>> So I think this is something we need to look for. It's very important to look into even people who are accused of crime, they deserve a due process. Yeah.

[00:09:08]>> Uh before you go and confiscate their assets. Uh there should be a process and we need to know that when assets are been confiscated um you know is the state doing this right tomorrow >> and and the money the money whether it was paid to the accountant general or just somebody in the army just [laughter] >> we we we don't even know whether the pay the 250,000 is paid in full but because in anyway the note only says 100,000 was >> indeed indeed yeah I mean uh how these things were confiscated uh whether they were properly valued, we don't even know.

[00:09:44]>> Yeah. No, because a boat a boat of that size because I have seen it on water myself. I go close to it. A boat that size uh can be built for up to around uh some up to around 500,000 some some up to around some said 800,000.

[00:10:01]>> I mean those those boats have huge values. Each of these people pay tens of thousands of dollars and these boats can take up to 100. So a single trip is you know is hugely profitable. So anybody making these boats also they aware of the value of what they are making.

[00:10:19]>> So >> this is why it becomes important to actually figure out the process with which these assets are confiscated and if they are going to be liquidated a proper valuation needs to be done >> but if there is no proper umation you know then >> in fact there was no valuation.

[00:10:36]>> Yeah. So I mean if if there's no due process here the person doing the liquidation >> you know is doing it for themsel and since they didn't put a boot into it they can sell it for 100,000 and still make money because they didn't incur any cost >> and it's trading with self because the navy is >> self dealing >> yeah self dealing but but another interesting thing is doesn't it expose the office of the CDS to cute procore as they say in US like you know because the CDS is in charge of the military navy is under the military and navy works with department officers to catch illegal fishes and you know I mean it's sort of >> yeah I know >> basically it's like uh instead of doing your job of uh of of of safeguarding the authoral integrity you are pretty much uh in in the business I mean for them in in fact what this uh tells you is that >> while the government is saying on one hand that they are making efforts at stopping this illegal bi migr uh migrants they actually making scheme for those people in authorities. So if you are the CDS or somebody in um in the Navy and you know about uh a potential boat that is about to uh launch several hundred migrants a week or two weeks from now, you would have no incentive to stop that process before they depart. what you rather do is they start the process so that you can get hold of the board and have a money making opportunity. So it's like the government having different um parts that are working against >> against each other. Yeah. So >> but but perhaps we need to go and account for the money. I mean the 100,000 that was >> not perhaps we we need I mean >> definitely account for that. Accounting would be like okay let's find out when this uh this this this this illegal practice started yes >> and find out how many how many boats were sold were stopped how many were confiscated at what value who were the people involved in who were they confiscated to this should not be difficult these boats will either be in uh Gambia if they are going to go anywhere they not going to go further than Saga >> so this process if a proper investigation uh is done in it should be possible to to really uncover most not all but most of the details.

[00:12:58]>> But another interesting thing which is also similar with this subject matter uh because I mean the army has a regulation and the regulation is quite specific in that the senior officers shouldn't place themselves in a person of conflict. It more like a copy of I think section 222 of the constitution but is with conflict of interest of public servants. So it's more like that and when you have the CDS who also sits in the national security council also operating a private company private security company which by the way you you have before you become a CDS but we know this can be handled because we know that there is even the president it says that if you become a president and you have a company you have to put it under a trustee >> right >> now but the share conflict of having to sit with uh one the military the officers are not allowed to do business according to their own regulations but also that you sit in the same council with the minister of interior who now oversees the compliance and the operations of private security companies I mean >> right >> isn't that also problematic >> I mean absolutely I mean it it is uh again um I don't even if let's say one is not even aware ware of you know that particular regulation in the military. I mean common sense to tell you that >> um you know having um you know uh doing this sort of business >> you know you know even going to the extreme you know it shows how comfortable and how long uh how how ongoing I mean you know how intrinsics has become for the CDA to actually get comfortable to the extent of naming the board after the wife. You know, normally some would even go to the extreme of hiding this.

[00:14:50]>> But if you actually naming that uh boat that that item that was illegally obtained >> and um you know and it goes against existing you know codes whether military or or you know uh or other sort of statues. It just shows that it became so uh long-term and normalized >> that um you know you know he feels very comfortable doing it.

[00:15:17]>> So if it is obviously I mean you know as far as I'm concerned this sort of thing it doesn't need to be written down to know that there is actually a conflict >> a conflict.

[00:15:26]>> Yeah. And the conflict here that's actually the the minor part here because the bigger part here is the illegal >> confiscation of those assets. Yeah.

[00:15:35]>> Because let's say you you take the board that is worth 500,000 >> and you go and confis and and and and acquire it or sell it for 250,000.

[00:15:45]>> Mhm.

[00:15:46]>> You have engaged in many uh levels of malpractice. Yeah.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. You've actually um you know lost the Gambian government >> or the Gambian people >> lost money.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah. Lost money for them.

[00:15:57]>> Economic crime.

[00:15:58]>> Yeah. It's an economic crime that in itself you know uh is an economic crime.

[00:16:02]you could have like valued it properly >> but [clears throat] you undervalued it and you became a beneficiary of that. So not only did you lose that money but that loss value is something you've pocketed >> because you are using the item now this asset now in personal money making scheme >> but in fact there is no record of the engine that was taken that was paid for >> and the engine was also reportedly taken from the navy the 60 horsepower engine.

[00:16:28]>> Okay. So so here the undervaluation is like mainly just the boat itself. Yeah.

[00:16:32]>> Yeah.

[00:16:34]>> And the other thing the other thing that you shouldn't forget is that these boats remember they go for a long distance. So they normally put thousands of liters of fuel.

[00:16:44]>> So that fuel itself is a huge uh a lot of money.

[00:16:49]>> I mean the fuel today in Gambia you guys will be sitting on cash.

[00:16:53]>> I think you will be a very hostile auditor. [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean this this >> you want us to account for the fuel.

[00:17:01]>> Absolutely. I mean because believe me if a fuel that a boat that's going to take you from here to the Canary Islands, you're going to need lot of fuel. So they put in lot of fuel there in containers that that boat >> has a lot of values. Not just the engine, not just the main frame itself, but the fuel itself. If you add all of those together, you might be looking at something close to a million.

[00:17:21]>> What do you think of having Navy officers on the board fishing there? I mean whether or not they are paid, they are not paid. Is here neither here nor there. I mean >> no it doesn't matter. They are not supposed to be there. This is like what J was doing taking uh soldiers putting them in his private farm. We thought we had >> but also also one of these soldiers who was actually on the the first one to be on the boat. They were also fishing for uh military but mainly at the time they were just fishing during days to help you know the soldiers have access to fish.

[00:17:55]>> Fish. Okay. Yeah. So it's not for private individuals.

[00:17:58]>> Yeah. But I mean Yeah. I mean listen if if the Navy had its own board that was procured in the proper channels by the government to go and show that they can supplement their food allowances that would be fine. But then having an illegally acquired board by the head of the military then uh to add to that crime by basically misallocating natural resource because when you take a government employed uh worker here and then you basically tell them to go and work for your private business. You are misallocating uh government resources because the you know that that that individual is working for you free. Uh they have the work they supposed to do.

[00:18:37]They have forgotten that and the government is paying for it. But would it even matter whether or not they work for you during work hours? Oh, >> it doesn't matter whether it's work hours or anytime a public official, a public employee >> Mhm.

[00:18:51]>> should not be used by their uh you know by their superiors >> to go and engage in uh work that is going to benefit that p uh that that individual privately. That's not supposed to be done. It should be obvious to anybody. You don't need to quote uh any law or regulation for anyone.

[00:19:12]>> It's it's pretty it's pretty clear in the military regulation that it says that an officer shall not engage in any private business.

[00:19:20]>> Okay.

[00:19:21]>> It's it's quite >> well that one is clearcut. Yeah. I mean it's something that has uh that has been ongoing for a while like I said under the J regime which is why reforms are very important >> uh because you know people need to if you have reforms and bringing in and you bring in leaders who understand the need for reforms and implement those reforms uh they need to bring a new culture into the workplace. things that used to be done before >> it needs to be made clear to people >> that these changes >> uh need to happen. Those things were wrong. Now a new culture, a new way of uh work culture needs to be implemented.

[00:19:59]So the fact that we never had the security reform that is needed here >> is this is one of the uh effects of that.

[00:20:07]>> We will come to the security sector reform and the issue of leadership in the military. But I mean also I mean there's some things that are quite grim when it comes to the allegations. So for example >> uh probably the most the most wild of them would be the hiring of an underage.

[00:20:27]>> Yeah.

[00:20:29]>> Of a young person who according to the evidence happens to be the son of the CDS.

[00:20:35]>> Exactly.

[00:20:36]>> Um that seems to be quite obvious.

[00:20:39]>> Yeah. And I mean that one is uh is quite grave and it's going to be very difficult to see how this former CD is going to defend himself because the allegations here are quite uh quite clear.

[00:20:49]>> Yeah.

[00:20:50]>> Here is somebody who was uh underage.

[00:20:53]>> Yeah.

[00:20:53]>> So I mean not just >> 16 and 17.

[00:20:56]>> Yeah. Not just somebody few weeks before. You can sort of understand when somebody's taking who was like a few days before but [snorts] somebody who's around 16 17 and on top of that >> they benefit from a program.

[00:21:07]>> Yeah. Uh but that I believe is um they were not eligible for um >> maybe they might have been but I'm not sure.

[00:21:15]>> Yeah. I mean >> but I mean in any case the age is not so you you eligibility is >> does not even arise >> does it because you're not even qualified to be there. [laughter] >> Exactly. No basically the eligibility for that for that training would just be compounding a problem that's already there.

[00:21:33]>> That's already there.

[00:21:34]>> Yeah. But the basic problem here is the following. Um so if this is happening and at the time no flags or um concerns were raised it raises the question >> have this has this thing something similar been ongoing with relatives close relatives of um military leaders before >> I have had quite a few allegations during the war during the war >> you have to this is a this is a country where we have a high unemployment rate among the youth >> uh we have uh people you'll hear people constantly complain about um having certain qualifications, going to an office, finding somebody there who has a job, who has you know you know whose qualifications doesn't measure up to them. M >> uh this sort of nepotism it's uh it's something that people we know it happens but seeing it witnessing it in such a glaring way in in an institution such as the military where this is one of the few areas where the youth have an advantage uh because you're not going to take a 40-y old recruit or a 50-y old recruit >> no matter your education >> but uh this is one of those areas where just being young and you know just entering adulthood where you really have um an inherent advantage and here you are even at such a uh such an opportunity it's been taken away uh by people just based on p pure connection.

[00:22:56]So it's it's it's a huge problem. It's quite quite a thing because I mean if you look at it I mean it's not like you can say oh this is a gray area because there used to be there used to be in the gaff act >> closed which says that you can be a soldier under 18 upon parental consent but this was deleted >> deleted right >> and so so it's not like it's it's gray area or something it's very obvious >> I mean but why do you think I mean When you look at some of the allegations, it seem to be so obvious that you would have thought it doesn't befit title, you know.

[00:23:37][laughter] Excuse me if I'm >> No, absolutely. I mean, >> if I'm being too blunt here, but I it doesn't be the title. You know what I mean?

[00:23:46]>> No, I mean again Yeah. I mean, when you think about all aspects of it, even the board, the board is Yes. The board brings in money. Yeah.

[00:23:54]>> But why jeeopardize >> all these years of service, your closeness to power, all the benefits you will get upon retirement.

[00:24:03]>> Yeah.

[00:24:03]>> You know, for a sort um you know um you know a sort um you know like um why have >> probably the money even is there's no money in the account still money is too frail. I know for me speaking for myself uh if even if I'm in the military I have a 16 or 17 year old >> I mean there are so many things I would think about >> um you know making so they benefit from >> uh than trying to um you know put them in the military before they actually reach retirement age. something that could in you know anyone looking at it you know you know after you leave would be you know would find it out so easily.

[00:24:46]So it goes back to the point I mean something so blatant if these uh people in leadership are finding it >> uh do you know they find it natural to do it >> how entrenched was the practice? How long was it ongoing >> you know for him to have discomfort to do something so blatant and something so unnecessary too?

[00:25:05]>> Yeah so unnecessary too. I mean the issue of the security company that he reportedly operates um not reportedly I mean this is evidenced by company record search so he he owns it >> right >> uh majority sir I mean >> and that was well known >> it was well known >> because I I knew about that even before this >> yeah exactly but but I mean the the issue of all the things that it's involved in the issue of compliance letter he received uh the issue of tax allegations. I mean I personally reach out to GR >> and through friends there who have told me well in our records the last tax payment we've seen is 2017. It does seem to also be quite uh you would have thought that I mean at least even if you are in business you would have checked some make sure some boxes are ticked so that for existence sake you know.

[00:26:03]Yeah, I mean I I would have thought that if you are in government at a high level, you would have to be one of those people who actually be very concerned about making sure that compliance basic compliance you are up to date especially something as important as you know tax >> where you know if you don't get your you know your clearance from GR let's say by end of April >> I mean that should be a red flag um and the fact that it is the C CDS himself >> that um you know that is uh doing something like this you know it also you you you wonder if if me as a private citizen I'm aware of this and >> uh that he owns a >> a private security >> a private you know why hasn't been more you know proactive is it that they go easy against uh senior government officials you know at the top level >> you know because um you know for some of us who are you know who are in the in the private sector. We are, you know, very, you know, concerned about making sure our tax obligations are there cuz, you know, these people can come after you >> anytime, >> anytime. Uh, and, you know, you would think that, uh, people in government would feel would would have um, you know, greater responsibility, a sense of responsibility.

[00:27:22]>> So, it it's really as a private citizen, uh, it is concerning at that level beyond the fact that just it's illegal.

[00:27:29]M >> I mean the issue of I mean I saw that there were response from Nakok regarding the issue of the credit facility that was given to the wife from the credit union of the monetary.

[00:27:46]I [clears throat] mean for me there there are some I mean in a in a country where we are sometimes we waste too much time on legality and illegality and as though it's the most important thing but even morals are also very important but also uh certain privilege also is very important to consider >> right >> you are when you are the head of the military and >> and you you you put your name as a guarantor >> for a credit >> of a wife we know is your wife >> and this is going to appear before a board that is chaired by the commander of your army.

[00:28:28]I mean also who is also your subordinate >> subordinate >> and you have a credit policy which says that uh one you should have uh savings that is uh you should have savings that should be able to pay back the debt in case of default >> right >> but also you are only allowed to to withdraw 30% >> of your savings if you are guaranteeing anybody >> I mean that doesn't sound to me right If Nak whatever Nakuk says I mean it doesn't seem to tell you with the evidence.

[00:29:02]>> Absolutely not. I mean what we've seen here is that the value of the loan far exceeds that of the the the guarantor.

[00:29:11]Yeah.

[00:29:11]>> So it it obviously fails that requirement for a guarantor >> and as you said you know these are some of those things where >> nobody is saying that public officials have to you know every member of their family should take unnecessary sacrifices.

[00:29:25]>> Yeah. But then there's a there are processes to you know to to follow here.

[00:29:30]Yeah.

[00:29:30]>> If you are in a position where you are you know there's going to be a conflict of interest recuse yourself.

[00:29:37]>> Uh even if you you know dotted all the eyes and cross all the tees you meet all the requirements you are supposed to for the process to be fair and impartial.

[00:29:45]You're supposed to recuse yourself. But here we have a problem where you did not follow the process. And still I don't think there's any evidence of him recusing himself. M >> um or people there who are part of that committee you know flagging the you know the inappropriateness of it.

[00:30:04]>> So it's like it's a it's an institutional breakdown failure here is >> and that could have been couldn't it have been primarily because of the involvement of the personality of course >> of the CDS. I mean it's >> absolutely I mean like I said if this thing has been ongoing and it's something people in the in institution knows that they know that this sort of wrongs uh their occurrence are common place >> uh many people you know the unfortunate reality is that many people are followers >> you know there are only few who have the courage to rock the board. So you're in this institution. Let's say you are the commander of the army and you spend your whole um you spend your whole life in the military. You are a few years from retirement. Here is the CDS doing something inappropriate. But you may have seen other inappropriate things being done.

[00:30:53]>> You also know that the CDS and the president know each other very well. At some point they understand they were together in Arama. you know um you know I would have hoped that he would have the courage to stand his ground and put something right in saying this inappropriate but the reality is a lot of people are you know are followers I mean you know so what probably happened in this case which I obviously don't agree with was that oh well these things are happening it will continue after I leave I might as well basically you have a rotten institution rotten practices that just continues uh unless you events like this force a change >> you know uh those change don't happen unfortunately >> yeah and you know also the one of the issues also is the issue of the food I mean this guy is taking food from uh you would have thought that CDS earns a reasonably good amount of money I mean even if it's not the best amount but I'm sure CDs much more much more money than me [laughter] >> no doubt I I don't >> We need to do another fundraising for you to increase your income. [laughter] >> I don't go to any private food store to take food from there and I survive.

[00:32:09][clears throat] You know, [laughter] I don't get it. Why would CDS go to the go to go to the ordinance military food store?

[00:32:18]>> Yeah.

[00:32:19]>> And take food from uh food that is meant for everyday average soldier. Listen, we have military camps and post all over the country as you know as far you know from Kon all the way to just next to Ka in Fatuto. We have military post there.

[00:32:36]>> Um I have never done an audit but I'm pretty sure if you go to each of these post and ask them the food that is allocated to you >> uh in your particular post are you able to satisfactoryily feed your soldiers for the duration of that time on a monthly basis? I would be surprised if half of them said yes.

[00:32:55]>> You know, I would be very surprised.

[00:32:57]>> You know, I went to I went to uh Fajara Barak one time and they I met a generous soldier. Uh this guy, I don't know, maybe he's fatty or something, you know, he's a he he was having carrying a stick or something. I mean, it would it would seem he's one of the authorities there.

[00:33:19]>> Okay. He offered me a very nice tea. I don't want to speak eel of it.

[00:33:24]>> Okay.

[00:33:25]>> But the milk on it doesn't taste very right.

[00:33:30][laughter] >> I mean, so I had making do.

[00:33:36]>> While while I was working on this story, one of the people joked that the the the the corn beef they they supply is is is the one with hen, not the one with the hen. You know the one with the end is the best one.

[00:33:51]>> Okay.

[00:33:51]>> It's and it's also the most expensive in the market currently.

[00:33:55]>> So there is one that they supply that's not the best. And they said one of the people who are taking supplies says no they don't like that. They don't they don't want to eat that. I go [laughter] it's tragic isn't it?

[00:34:11]>> No it is. I mean it it's sad also. I mean but like you said I mean your anecdote with the milk I mean um you know in fact the generosity of those those who share the little what they have they are far more generous than those who have a lot and they are sharing a little. I swear >> um maybe that that officer is trying to send a message in a very um subtle way.

[00:34:33]>> Yeah. Subtle way that well uh this is the best we have to offer our guests. So you you you know use your uh common sense and have an idea of like what we are leaving.

[00:34:43]>> I I I think that the taste in my throat stayed there for a while >> for a while. Yeah. No, I mean but in all seriousness I mean the point here is is is a serious thing. If you have um you know being in the military there are many things hard about it. I've never been in in the military but I have family members who are there >> and I I know they don't get the best food and the quantity may not be enough for most of them. Like I said, um so to have senior officers who they have, I mean the CDS I I live next to one CDS who you know in the morning when that man is you know getting out you see these soldiers all over his compound. No less than four soldiers a day guarding his uh compound. U they have lot of you know he has a convoy when the city is going to and from work there's a convoy.

[00:35:30]The CDS has lot of um privileges and benefits. I don't begrudge them for that but that should be enough that if if you if uh if after having all of those benefits you are still >> taking from a supply that is meant for the uh the average soldier I think that that that's a very shameful affair >> and this is I mean there are many people up there because I've seen a lot of invoices and not there are many names on it there.

[00:35:57]>> Yeah. So, so the I mean this >> issue to many people.

[00:36:00]>> No, this this is important to stress >> uh what you have evidence for is not just the CDS taking food away from soldiers is many other senior officers.

[00:36:11]>> Many other so this problem uh runs very deep. This is why an investigation is needed >> to to go and uncover all of these problems.

[00:36:19]>> Yes. But also essentially I mean when you think of the military Usman I mean lot seriousness comes to mind like think about it even the titles general you know >> I mean something serious like something like these are the people who are they're the only people carrying guns in the country >> indeed.

[00:36:37]>> Yeah. So I mean you think of a leadership that is like that's right to the point. I mean it's not like you know what I mean. I mean is it scary? No, it's scary in many as you said. I mean, this is supposed to be a a branch uh that is supposed to be non nonsense, you know, all about work, very regimented life.

[00:36:58]>> Uh you have a well structured life, have disciplined >> discipline. Um well, supposed to be here. We have the evidence here things are not disciplined. They should be but I mean that's the whole point. I mean they are supposed to be Yes.

[00:37:10]>> Yeah. I mean at at least we talking about the top.

[00:37:12]>> Yes. You know you are talking about the one who should be an embodiment of discipline himself.

[00:37:18]>> Indeed.

[00:37:19]>> So that's >> no it is uh so it's very important again we one of the things here that should not be overlooked is that you see when this government came to power >> they looked at a lot of people who they felt were victimized by j >> and you know elevated them. So we should be very careful about uh about the fact that you know just because somebody was victimized by J that they are quote unquote good. Yes. Because um here here is an and and this this guy is not the only example. There are many people today in Adam's government that you can point to who were victimized and they've been kind of rehabilitated and and elevated and that's a big mistake.

[00:37:59]Sometimes J could be >> you don't put down to emotions of the coalition in back in the day at the starting because I mean J left coalition came in >> and there was little time to discern what was happening you know and so people just were engulfed with emotions >> well possibly but here we are in year 10 like I said uh in the first year I can sort of understand maybe you know uh things you need some time to do proper vetting and other things. But if you are in year 10 and as the evidence that you and others have uncovered s this is not restricted to one individual, not to one activity uh not to one period in time.

[00:38:41]This is something that has been ongoing for a while and as we have seen in other scandals uh this corruption is at every uh level of the government. So I don't think uh it's a it's a valid excuse to say that um you know the emotional >> things uh what what we have evidence for right now is that Baru is just comfortable with anyone who supports him >> whether irrespective of your background irrespective how corrupt um how unethical you were as long as you are now on his side and he considers you a friend and then you are helping him stay in power you are a good guy in his because I do want to support your argument. I mean I used to tell people and I still do probably up to 90% or maybe if I am being charitable maybe 90% is little bit high but up to around 80 or 70% of people we did stories about before up to now have all had problems with >> yeah [laughter] different numbers. Well, look at the people who Aram has surrounded himself with. Look at the um uh the people like Sidai if they had he in his case he came late in J's uh tenure in when J was in office the last few days. But I can tell you if if Siding had been around let's say in 20 years uh 15 years before J left he would have been one of those people who would have served for some time and found himself in mile two. He could have been rehabilitated or not but he would have had some problem with Jam. Not because he was a good guy but because J knows the character of some people around him and he p he may have punished them in the wrong way in his own way. Uh but that doesn't mean that just because J has um maltreat mistreated somebody the person is an angel but you look at the people like Modu Savali who who's close to Baru today at some point he was elevated by J all the way the secretary general then brought all the way down frog march through Makadi Square and sent to >> you know detention >> you know there are other people there too >> many other examples >> many other examples so uh but as far as brow is concerned What matters for him today is that today they are supporting him. That's what matters to Adamabaro.

[00:41:00]It doesn't matter their track record.

[00:41:03]Look at some of these people who were adversely mentioned in the Jan uh commission who were bad and now all of a sudden >> as long as they are supporting him or he finds them politically um useful they are rehabilitated. M >> so that's the only thing that matters to Aram which is why these sort of scandals as long as he's in power will continue to be on continue to surface isn't it also the situations that we're dealing with social decadence man we're dealing with a society that is far too drenched in decadence like people just [laughter] like social decadence >> yeah no that is that is definitely part of it and when you have you see a leadership in a country.

[00:41:49]>> No, I mean when you have uh when you have uh rotteness at the top, >> you know, it will infect every uh aspect of life.

[00:41:58]>> Yeah.

[00:41:59]>> I mean today if the president >> gets out and says anything, >> it doesn't matter how trivial it is, it doesn't matter how important it will get wall to wall coverage in the media, in social media simply because he's the president. When the president surrounds himself with people who are unethical, people who are corrupt, it also sends a message >> not only uh to uh through government institutions or governmentr run entities but through all of society >> that um what matters here is whether you are close to power or whether you're powerful not whether or not it is right or wrong.

[00:42:33]>> Yeah.

[00:42:34]>> No. So these are so today >> so accountability selective.

[00:42:38]>> Yeah. Accountability ethics. I mean the whole thing about ethics I mean there are many things that are ethically dubious that are perfectly legal.

[00:42:45]>> Yeah.

[00:42:45]>> You know >> when that becomes a daily occurrence in a government what it tells people is that just the basic uh norms of ethics are optional >> rather than >> should shouldn't we should we emphasize on ethical leadership?

[00:42:59]>> Absolutely.

[00:43:00]>> I mean shouldn't somebody lose his job because he's he behaves immorally or unethically?

[00:43:04]>> Absolutely. And but here it's very important that um the former CDS resigning. I I think I I hope people will not misinterpret that as a sign of you know uprightness. Oh, he's uh he didn't wait to be fired. He has no choice.

[00:43:19]>> People have already.

[00:43:20]>> No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that is I saw that and I was very depressed with that interpretation.

[00:43:25]>> There is no It's like the few times where this government acted on charges of corruption is that their hands have been forced. The evidence here is very overwhelming. Mhm.

[00:43:34]>> There's just no way they could spin this.

[00:43:36]>> When Sidai was taped saying very begotted things, >> you know, they didn't come out and defend him. Uh they would want to they don't want to lose him. They He's still there, but nobody came out because it is not defensible. There's just no way he could spin it.

[00:43:52]>> Yeah. But did say that Yes. But he wants to deflect it, but he didn't defend because even he himself >> defend what he said. even himself saying it's wrong. Exactly. At least he implies it's wrong >> because you cannot argue with a recording. But I'm pretty sure if there hadn't been a recording, they would have come and lied and said he didn't say such and such. But now that there's a recording, they could not argue with it.

[00:44:17]They couldn't spin it. So it's the same thing here. It's the same is the same story with uh Dr. Banana who was caught again. The evidence was so overwhelming they had to fire him. other ministers too who are currently um on trial when the evidence is so overwhelming they cannot uh spin it so they quickly want to make the problem go away by forcing >> even the assets office because the evidence was also >> exactly >> and now they are sitting on the report anyway >> exactly so in this case the CDS resigning is not a sign of moral uprightness is basically him having no choice because he's >> couldn't couldn't it also be this you know when you sack someone you are committed to go and investigate them because sacking also has an implication. It means you are sacking them because of wrongdoing.

[00:45:04]>> Yes.

[00:45:05]>> Because you believe they have committed something wrong.

[00:45:07]>> Right.

[00:45:08]>> And and especially when that sacking is preceded by a scandal, >> right?

[00:45:12]>> Yeah.

[00:45:12]>> And so they would have tied their hands, >> right?

[00:45:15]>> So they call him and say, "Bro, you need to [laughter] need to fall on the sword."

[00:45:22]>> Trouble. No, I mean that's I think there's something to that. You are quite right because so far maybe it's too early in the process but so far we have not received any indication that there are plans to dig into this deeper. I suspect even if they announce that they are going to investigate they are going to put it in such a way that it's easy to sweep. They'll make this an investigation about one man doing a wrong as opposed to uh a rotten system where this wrongdoing is per pervasive because >> uh there's a lot of evidence of other senior officers that are illegally taking the soldiers russle >> you know so it's not this is problem is not only the former CDS it's widespread in the military institution >> but isn't it also I mean couldn't they also have done this to also avoid a deeper institutional probe so let's say for example They kind of you already making you already alluding to that.

[00:46:14]>> But so for example, this one person is we are if all of us are doing something and one person just get boned.

[00:46:23]Okay. And so we push him out quickly so that nobody looks at us the rest of us.

[00:46:28]>> Yeah. In a way because again they government would want to in fact use this as an you know as an evidence that they are fighting crime.

[00:46:37]So such has been accused of this wrongdoing and we accepted we for and they said honorably >> oh I didn't I forgot that word yeah which is a big problem. Yeah, which already shows that there'll be no seriousness in trying to uncover the problem because if anything if you when you are in other I don't know the military statues in the Gambia but I know in other countries if you you know if you are found wanting in you know uh through certain actions that are illegal or unethical you'll probably be dishonorably discharged from the military rather than be allowed to resign honorably. So already these are indications that this government is not going to seriously look into this matter.

[00:47:20]>> What does this tell you about [clears throat] >> what do you think was going on on Bar's mind? I mean this is the first chief of defense staff to have been asked well to have resigned.

[00:47:33]Uh what do you I mean we cannot tell what's in Barrow's head but at least we know he's track [laughter] what do you think he must have been?

[00:47:45]What do you think his his words on this subject would be?

[00:47:50]>> It's a it's a good question. I mean uh like you said we we do have um lot of material to work with here based on what he has said of uh of of wrongdoings. Um first of all he probably would say oh he has not been convicted of any crime.

[00:48:09]>> These are just allegations.

[00:48:11]>> Um most I I think if anything my my reading of this how this administration has responded to other wrongdoing is that they are just going to feel irritated that uh this man allowed himself to be so careless >> uh to be caught.

[00:48:26]>> Yeah.

[00:48:26]>> Yeah. to be caught, you know, red-handed with evidence that they can't spin >> rather than being, you know, uh rather than being morally repulsed >> by somebody, you know, failing in his role as a leader, >> uh somebody, you know, essentially stealing from the state, somebody essentially stealing from his subordinates, you know, that is a moral failure of leadership. So I suspect that this administration will not be uh looking at these issues like moral failures but rather as a nuisance that he was stupid enough to allow himself to be caught so blatantly that uh they have no choice but to let him go.

[00:49:05]>> Do you think it could affect morale within the Gav hierarchy? men or even if it's not in the Gav hierarchy maybe the at the lower K to the to the >> what do you think the average soldier would be thinking >> actually I think what is important for me in this particular case is the moral not at the very top >> but the morale >> at the lower level because remember >> at any time in the in any of these institutions those at the top >> Mhm.

[00:49:34]>> they are not suffering most of them are doing well.

[00:49:38]>> Yeah. you go and talk to uh Gambia Post authority the leadership at the top they are fine but it was the rank and file who were demonstrating about their HR issues.

[00:49:48]>> Yeah. Um um so if you go to Nar despite the power outage the leadership uh Galloci is doing fine and some of his um senior managers but those ones uh the the rank and files at their stations in Bas and and and and Farah probably have um you know are the ones working under the hot sun and probably enjoying fewer benefits. The point here is that any institution even one that may not be poorly I mean on average well paid the ones who are at the top get very good compensation. So here >> it's difficult to it's it is easy to motivate a soldier a new recruit or somebody who's posted in the bush in kuda >> that um what they are going through is a is a general tightening of the belt.

[00:50:36]everyone at the you know uh in in the institution is is is uh is making do with what they have. You know maybe they are um benefiting from a little bit more as a result of um their higher rank but beyond the higher rank you know if you control for rank they are all in the same boat. But what this situation has um revealed here is that you have people at the very top who are enjoying themselves in a way that is far out of proportion to their leaders to their position despite the privileges they have and also they are actually cheating the people at this lower rank by stealing food ras on something so such a basic requirement. I mean it doesn't get bigger than that. So I can definitely foresee this having a problem on the moral of the rank and fire soldiers and it should. M so I mean when you look at also the issue of the military I mean this is an institution that's I've never seen an audit of the defense headquarters >> or the military barracks >> and how they spend money and we have soldiers in there I mean uh and they are not allowed to speak to journalists they are not allowed to complain to anybody um and we have had grieviances in the barracks 4 1994 and by the time you hear about the grieviances in the barracks >> it's they speak through the just one language >> right [laughter] >> it's through a gun >> that's how we get to know about grieviances on the barracks >> exactly >> it's either mutiny or they are taking over the state >> it it this probably explains why we still have ecomic here why do you think brow after 10 years >> still wants to hide behind foreign soldiers because the reform that he he needs to feel comfortable with having the security of his government and Gambia under Gambian soldiers. That reform hasn't been done.

[00:52:37]>> So basically uh the price we are paying for that as ordinary citizen is that all aspects of security hasn't improved probably has gotten worse. Uh but Barrow has his insurance policy and his safety which is hiding behind economic soldiers. So even if um and there is a loss in morale and those soldiers want to take actions right now he doesn't have to worry he has the protection of economic soldiers you know >> but that that's quite a that that would that would be quite a very disappointingly lazy viewpoint I mean >> well does bar give you any indication that he's anything but lazy I mean [laughter] >> I mean for a president to have thought about I mean the president is supposed to be the most busy man in the country with the most preoccupied brain alive.

[00:53:27]>> Well, Baro is very preoccupied, I I'm pretty sure, but preoccupied with staying in power, not preoccupied with our long-term um development or aspects of that because again, if you are interested >> Yeah.

[00:53:41]>> in security sector reform, >> if you are interested in security sector reform, the reforms that needed to happen, we all know about that, but no reforms have taken place. the military.

[00:53:51]>> Mhm.

[00:53:52]>> When in 2016 when Baro was uh coming to power, the budget of the military was less than 600 million.

[00:53:59]>> Mhm.

[00:54:00]>> The the number of people uh Jame increased the army from 1,000 to over 6,500 soldiers. Currently things are just rumbling along. The the the military size has increased. The budget has doubled from 2016 to 2020 has actually doubled.

[00:54:17]uh he is fine because uh it doesn't affect him. The lack of reforms um you know have not taken place because again it doesn't affect him because he is safe behind the state house wall where uh no matter what happens in Kudang or Farfund it won't affect him. If disgruntled soldiers rise up with their guns and want to march to state house he has economic to stop them. But I mean if you look at I mean the average Gambian soldier who has had to go to work and do do you because the whole point of security sector reform back in the day uh okay let me finish the issue of corruption and the impact first before we get to the security sector reform in detail. I mean, if you look at corruption, [clears throat] isn't this the right time for for us to now begin to audit um expenditure for intelligence? I guess the big elephant in the room is SIS.

[00:55:16]>> Yes.

[00:55:16]>> NI.

[00:55:17]>> Mhm.

[00:55:18]>> Right.

[00:55:19]>> Absolutely.

[00:55:20]>> And the defense headquarters, military barracks and see how they spending the money and see even how even do a performance audit or whatever you call the audit.

[00:55:31]>> Yeah. to know what the average soldier in the barracks is feeling.

[00:55:36]>> Absolutely. And we need it in all the security branches, not only the um the uh the Gambia armed forces, uh immigration, police, SRS, drug enforcement, we need it there. Now, some some would say because of the clandestine nature of the work of the SRS, they need to go through uh you know, not everything can be revealed.

[00:55:57]Fine. You can always have classified briefings. You can have certain committees in the national assembly >> who you know will be sworn to certain confidentiality. But there has to be a check. Even the CIA, FBI and military intelligence in the US, they do have um there are some sort of um you know accountability not like they not just giving money and then do whatever they want and be beyond audit or beyond accountability. So even the SIS that needs to be done and I believe if you look into any of the security branches, we've all heard about uh drug boards being washing up on the shows. We know what's happening in the police. Uh if you talk to uh people um you know stories that come out of the drug enforcement, you hear all sort of stories. I'm sure you will find something either it's just as bad as what has been found in the military or maybe even worse.

[00:56:51]Do you think that I mean right now I mean anybody who is coming do do you think Baros should replace the CDS right now um or confirm Usman who is acting man G as the CDS or just wait and sort of do a background check on everybody?

[00:57:12]No, I I I mean I think that's a very good point because it's easy to cover a problem uh a problem with like a superficial um bandaging when when the underlying rot is just spreading.

[00:57:24]>> Uh I think here given the nature of this is not a minor um a minor one time uh crime. This is something that has been ongoing.

[00:57:34]>> Uh it's different activities and there is evidence that uh the wrongdoing extends to just beyond the CDS. Mhm.

[00:57:42]>> So before somebody within the military is named >> to replace you know the former CDS general >> ch some sort of proper investigation needs to be done so that the next leadership would be corruption free problem free because if you do not do that you bring someone else who is part of the existing problem >> they will make sure that whatever reform is being done >> uh doesn't have any teeth because it's going to expose them.

[00:58:13]>> Yeah.

[00:58:14]>> So I think an accountability, some sort of audit, some sort of investigation needs to be done so that you know we use this as an opportunity to clean the military leaders. But isn't this isn't that the issue of you've now come to vetting? Isn't vetting an issue of problem? Uh do we even do vetting? I mean because when you come to appointments of critical roles there should have been adequate thorough vetting so that you go through the backgrounds of an individual and you know do do we even do vetting?

[00:58:48]>> No we don't. I'll give you one example.

[00:58:49]The first time I realized in this government the the lack of vetting the the the degree of the problem was when I met Asanfal. Asanfal was appointed uh Giper uh CEO CEO.

[00:59:01]>> Yeah. This man was a fraud who um who ran with people's money from the US banned from security trading came here claimed to be a doctor asan um asan fal with with a ph with a MBA and a PhD he was appointed director of gaper turns out the man doesn't have a bachelors doesn't have a masters doesn't have a PhD >> wow >> but guess what got him fired he wasn't fired because somebody did an investigation and found that he made up all his qualification He was only fired when he was recorded by a former lover in in in calling Adamu an idiot. You know >> that's when he was >> that's when he was fired. Yeah. But here was this >> but but you [laughter] wouldn't think Adam should have been Adam should really have been annoyed by that because at least Adam according to [laughter] back in the day they told us Adam had a degree in real estate.

[00:59:55]>> Well >> never seen it but >> yeah. Well, BBC I remember when he first came BBC call a real estate businessman.

[01:00:02]Uh, which is a bit of a strange.

[01:00:03]>> We used to describe Bar as a real estate mogul.

[01:00:06]>> Mogul, right? [laughter] Well, uh I think we all know the reality. But to answer your question going back to the issue of vetting here uh that to me for me I wrote an article uh in newspaper when I exposed the guy because it took me just 5 minutes to go online call the schools. I called university. He said he got his PhD at um um I think either University of Chicago or University of Michigan, PhD or or MBA from one of these schools. I called both of them, you know, confirmed it, went to the national student claring house, paid the fee, verified that not only was he not a student, not not only was he not a degree holder, he never took courses there. So here as a private citizen, I did that vetting. It took me few minutes but this government went and appointed this guy CEO of Giper our premier institution for foreign investors committing and during the time he was there important agreements were assigned between investors business people and the government and we are stuck with those.

[01:01:10]>> Yeah.

[01:01:10]>> Yeah. So the vetting hasn't happened a whole minister >> I mean even right now you are talking about senior officers taking Russian I mean everybody's online emotionally calling for appointment of party or somebody >> without without vetting yeah >> I mean vet them because in this country [laughter] no people need to be I think this is why it's important to have good leadership because the leadership [clears throat] you know no matter how unpopular you are you always set the agenda in the If you make the lack of vetting a standard process, people don't even think that it's something that's important. But if it is something that's in uh that that becomes a norm in the government, even your average person will start asking themselves, hey, before you make Usman Gajigo >> um such and such uh um you know official uh have you looked into his background?

[01:02:02]Did you verify that he worked in ADP?

[01:02:04]Did you verify that he has a PhD, a master's degree? These are basic questions, you know. But isn't this even too basic for a state because for example even if you organizations NGO some organizations are hiring even NOS'sdeed they ask you for your social media handles for your past history for everything they go and do a background check someday even hire somebody to do due diligence >> I have seen interns you know people have called me um because they are doing background checks for an intern or for an entry-level person. So this is something that should be basic but it is not. I mean Adamabaro appointed permanent secretaries at the state house while he was still sitting in Dakar. you know when he was sworn in before coming in he appointed people come I can understand appointing people at some ministerial level but these are you know people technical people you are sitting in the car waiting to come here you are in no position to be doing due diligence but just because the first person came there bamboozled you with uh regal you with some stories so that tone was set very early in this administration and it's something that has persisted over time so the issue of vetting is you know a whole minister just a few years ago was appointed. I don't agree with the fact that ministers have to renounce their order citizenship but it is the it is the law. So enforce it. If you're going to appoint somebody as a minister verify that they have renounced their citizenship.

[01:03:31]>> Yeah. even people who are still there who are who may have I have been told has not >> you know so so it's it's it's something that is definitely um a major gap and if it's why you know people can continue to perform badly in their roles people can perform to do uh continue to do illegal things >> because the only metric that matters to this president is he considers you on his side rather than you discharging your duties and responsibilities. Uh well about we've we've kept people for too long and I've kept you also for too long. Um and of course this is a very busy time for people who are trying to remove bar [laughter] [laughter] anyway. So uh security sector reform this is a subject matter that's been ongoing for a long time.

[01:04:30]I'm going to start the conversation in an unusual way because I think that do you think this thing called security sector reform is even an indigenous idea or do you this is just a result of project proposal sort of intellectualism. So people they draft project proposals >> to sell it to donors to get >> based on where the funding is.

[01:04:51]>> Yes. Yes.

[01:04:52]>> Do you do you think that's the case?

[01:04:55]I think here um this is >> we are genuine about it.

[01:04:59]>> Well, I think a lot of the people who are not in government, many average people, many civil society organiz uh groups or individuals are genuine about it. The question is uh whether the government is genuine about it or not.

[01:05:12]In the government's case, I think it's something that they had to do because the previous government came as a military dictatorship. And when you have a military dictatorship even if the leader at some point becomes civilian >> they [snorts] have they basically um corrupt that institution >> to um kind of entrench themselves in power. So the fact that you have a coup d'eta really means a corruption of the military institution because a military is supposed to be subordinate to civilian government. So when there's an overthrow that institution has broken down and it needs to be reformed in a new democracy. M so this was something that is uh expected. So people are genuine about it. But from the point of um point of view of this government they obviously were not >> based on the people they selected based on you know the processes they went they basically went through the processes to get support and make superficial changes. for the real changes that needed to take place and the most obvious of that should have been at some point a few years after 2027 to see foreign soldiers leave the country so that the reform >> 10 years economic is still >> so the biggest indicator that you need here that security reform this government was not serious about it has not implemented it is the fact that economic is here and it is the only security this government trust it doesn't trust the Gambian army doesn't trust the Gambian and police.

[01:06:37]>> But you know Usman for me I look I speak to soldiers and quite frankly some of the soldiers I speak to are one of the most brilliant Gambians I've come across right and they are young they are very educated some are masters some have degree and all that stuff but when I listen to public officials who are saying let's reform sec security people and I see the conduct of themselves and the orders as the issue. Do you not think that what we confuse as security reform should in fact be political reform?

[01:07:14]>> The very people who are calling for security reform. [laughter] >> You mean those in government?

[01:07:19]>> Yeah.

[01:07:19]>> Yeah. Obviously, I mean you make a point here that I think it's important to stress here. Uh in any it's not just it's not just the military. In any institution in the government that you go to, you find lot of young and talented Gambians. We do not lack uh you know technically competent people. Uh we do not lack for people who are genuine people who are you know uh morally upright. The problem is at the very top it's like the uh on serious government like the one we have go out of their way to put people there um who are not uh up to the task >> to to to blatantly dysfunction institutions.

[01:07:58]>> Yeah. Because the goal here is not to get those institutions to work. M >> the goal there is just to persist in to help this government persist in power.

[01:08:07]That's the only goal.

[01:08:09]>> Such that inefficiency is also a system.

[01:08:11]It's just that this is a system that doesn't work for the people. Yes. It's a system that works for the elders.

[01:08:16]>> Exactly.

[01:08:16]>> So corruption is a system. the the corruption here be uh uh you know if you look at uh like I said the only problem for the government for Mama Cham here is that he was in from that point of view he's just too careless that he got caught so blatantly so red-handedly that um he can't they can't make any spinning here you know but if they could be sure >> uh that uh they could spin it >> m >> it doesn't matter how how deep in corruption He was he was going to stay there.

[01:08:50]>> But you know when I talk to Gambian public officers I don't I don't know whether you have some clarity as to what security secretary reform means to them.

[01:08:59]>> Do you? Because so one time they are talking about right sizing. Yes.

[01:09:03]>> One time they are talking about [laughter] downsizing and downsizing we now know they have changed their mind about that. But another time they says right sizing. I don't even know what that means. [laughter] >> I once wrote an article >> know it's English.

[01:09:16]>> Yeah. I once wrote an article where actually attack such corporate speak you know you have this corporate speak where if you don't want to say something meaningful you just use certain phrases like nav talking about technical problems you know rather than talking about uh the management failures and the energy policy failures >> the security sector if it's done properly you need to ask yourself what is the goal here so when you say security for whom?

[01:09:40]>> For who?

[01:09:40]>> Yeah it should be security for the nation. When you say the nation, what's the most important element for the average person in the Gambia here?

[01:09:49]Unlike other countries, our context is very clear here. When we talk about security, it should be security for the average person.

[01:09:54]>> Yeah.

[01:09:55]>> Let's reform it. And instead of saying right sizes, we know the military if we are supposed to put the military in a particular size that's appropriate for our context. It the size has to be in one direction only to reduce it.

[01:10:08]>> Yeah.

[01:10:08]>> When J when was happening, we had barely 1,000 soldiers. Yeah.

[01:10:13]>> After Jama came to power, he built two units. Then there you had the uh you know the regular army. You had the Republican National Guard. At some point even got a plane from Ukraine.

[01:10:23]>> Yeah.

[01:10:24]>> You know >> you know at point we even had a tank that was the noisiest vehicle you could ever hear. What a very old tank. I think you could hear if it's in Westfield you could hear it from here in Wingara.

[01:10:34]>> The point is the military at the time was not designed for the goal of what a military should be. We the primary role of a military is to ensure the territorial integrity of the Gambia.

[01:10:44]>> If you look anyone who looks at the Gambian situation would know that the chief security concern in the Gambia is uh domestic law enforcement >> not territorial integrity.

[01:10:56]>> So when you have such a situation the goal of security sector reform >> is quite clear. So when you have the people in government talking about right sizing, doing uh consultation meetings here and there, you know, putting billboards >> without any right sizing of the military, you know, without determining what should be the proper per capita size of the police relative to our population, the size of the military given our reduced need to ensural integrity >> without any proper reforms of SI Mhm.

[01:11:34]>> rather than just a superficial name change which is actually illegal because the statues on the book actually still says NIA.

[01:11:42]>> Mhm.

[01:11:43]>> Uh you you get the sense that these people were never serious about security sector reform.

[01:11:49]>> But do you not think Usman also it's because of the monetization of our problem? I alluded to this briefly a pro at the behind right few minutes behind by monetization I mean our problems are an opportunity for us to get money from so-called [laughter] and so if we get rid of a problem we will not be able to have money so we make sure the problem even if they give us money to plant a tree we plant it and we kill it >> yes so that there'll be go back and beg for money for tree >> which is a very good analogy here no I totally agree I was coming to uh get to that point because you know things that required lot of money these consultation meetings bringing consultants >> I mean you doing security sector reform and you you bring in generals to to me from Nigeria >> you know you know is that is is that of >> all places you know when you have Gambians here there are a lot of Gambians with very very >> our own soldiers >> what not even I mean if you let's say you are worried about our soldiers who were in the But there are Gambians who have lot of security background in other countries in the west who who I'm sure if you request they'll be more than happy to come here with no you know asking nothing in pay.

[01:13:05]>> Yeah. So as you said uh I totally agree.

[01:13:07]I mean right now the people who were there the idea was to do the bare minimum of activities on the surface to uh to to to capture donor's interest so that funds will come in uh instead of doing the real changes. I mean one one example of those is the billboards that were placed in the country you know >> but in the end Usman the the average soldier is demotivated is underpaid um is unproductive goes and sit in the barracks I mean shouldn't we approach the whole security thing from an economic point of view >> oh yeah that is a big part of it >> that thinking [laughter] is economic productivity like how do I make citizen including these soldiers more economically productive >> indeed. Well, I wouldn't say uh >> of course outside of course outside >> of course outside of the military.

[01:14:03]>> Yes, of course. Exactly. So if you you know today let's say you have up to 7,000 to 8,000 people in the military but they not doing anything and you are paying them poorly and they sitting down you are actually wasting resources.

[01:14:16]These are people in their prime um um age who could do valuable things in other sectors. Yeah, >> you know, imagine you have a situation where those that are in the military are well paid, >> but then you have those are in other sectors that actually there are returns not only for them >> but also for the economy. So if you actually approach it in the way it should be and you realize that the appropriate size for the military is something lower then you would be saving yourself money. I mean 1.2 2 billion.

[01:14:46]>> Mhm.

[01:14:47]>> You know, if you look at the breakdown of the military, uh they in other parts of the economy >> and you can still even leave them in the reserve, they can still continue.

[01:14:55]>> Exactly. You can have a reserve. But the nice thing with the reserve is in 90% of the time you are doing something that's >> something else. Yes. You're doing something else not in the army. But and another thing man is the issue of um so if you look at our military I mean we are facing threats but our threat is coming from the sea right >> I mean we know that illegal fishing alone takes millions and millions of dollars from the Gambia right we have a navy and we have a coastline of about I think 200 nautical miles >> I mean that the last figure that the fisheries released was that only 60 40% of this is polished adequately by the navy >> and this does not even include the high seas like couldn't we invest so much in this like you know >> I mean it would it would make a lot more sense in fact given the government >> because that way you they're doing something >> you know what I mean >> it would actually be better to actually instead of saying a navy we have a coast guard >> you know because here that you know their their activities primary activities would be far more in line with what the nation need them for instead of having um lots of soldiers sitting in the um in the barracks doing nothing. Imagine if you if you invest reallocate the resources into boats into drones that can scout our water bodies make sure that illegal fishing is actually uh there's repercussion for it.

[01:16:25]You know illegal fishermen are caught brought in here and they are fined and money actually goes towards uh investment in the fisheries. That would be a better use of resources rather than the situation right now where the biggest among all our security branches, the biggest one by far is the military in a country that is surrounded on all sides on land by another country that has no threat to its territorial integrity. Do you not even think that I mean part of the we keep talking about cool cool I mean part of the things for the reasons for the coup maybe of course on productivity uh maybe low paid but isn't it also because I mean a lot of people we hire in Africa who are in the military and in the barracks actually they just go and sit >> yeah that's a big part of >> and also notice that in many coupas that happen in in our part of the world >> is sometimes There are generals involved but it's rarely general.

[01:17:21]>> It's very general captain.

[01:17:22]>> Yeah, it's [laughter] people you know.

[01:17:26]>> So what what this uh this uh CDS char incident shows is that the people the generals at the top they usually are enjoying they are part of the system.

[01:17:34]They >> are the fat cows.

[01:17:35]>> They are the fat cows. They're enjoying >> the ones who really are you know you know of course the recruits are not connected enough to lead any but those who are somewhere in the middle at the level of leftinance and captains and majors these are ones who are high enough to know what's happening >> uh but low enough not to be enjoying the spoils.

[01:17:56]>> So when you have a system where they can see their superiors enjoying >> uh and most of it is illegally um you know obtained. Mhm.

[01:18:06]>> It's easy to convince themselves that you know this system is not working. We need to upend the system. So this is these sort of things corruption that uh the CDS um former CDS has been formed.

[01:18:16]These are sometimes some of the basis for um for some of these uh younger or junior soldiers to rebel.

[01:18:24]>> So thank you Usman for passing by this being a long time. Just one final question. What do you think the government should do with this subject?

[01:18:33]Now this one you know is quite clear what has been uncovered is a serious matter. It's not a oneoff incident doesn't uh didn't involve one single activity is a series of activities that have been ongoing for a while that it is quite clear goes beyond just one individual. What is required here is an investigation, a very thorough investigation so that um anyone who is found involved, they face the consequences and this must be done before a new CDS is confirmed.

[01:19:04]>> Thank you so much for passing by.

[01:19:06]>> Thank you.

[01:19:07]>> All right, viewers, that's everything we have for you for today on Verified with me, Mr. Far Davo. Have a blessed week ahead. Uh good evening.