ARREST OF ABRONYE DC: Kwakye Ofosu Slams GBA Over Silence on Afenyo-Markin Judge Remarks

Añadido: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]Um, we we'll delve into the big stories now. And I have joining me in studio Larry Dug. He's the editor of the Herald newspaper, regular on the show. Needs no introduction. Larry, always a pleasure to have you. Good morning and welcome.

[00:00:13]>> Good morning and thank you.

[00:00:14]>> I trust you're fine.

[00:00:15]>> Sure. I'm doing well.

[00:00:16]>> Amazing. Also joining us in studio is Alhaji Kamalin Abdullah. Um he's a deputy national communications director for the new patriotic party in opposition and and he's joining us in studio. Um Kamal good morning and welcome.

[00:00:32]>> I'm terrific and I like the way you stress the opposition.

[00:00:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know I think was Kufor said that it's better to be in to be a servant in government than a chairman >> than to be a general secretary in opposition. I hope opposition is treating you well.

[00:00:46]>> Well is a cycle we always go through so I'm not sure it's new to us. Do you do you get a sense that as a party you are learning and also relearning some of the mistakes you made that led to a very significant election loss?

[00:01:02]>> Yes. Um covertly we have what we are learning and we can bring that out and then as a result we'll have to strategize based on what we are learning within and in the closet.

[00:01:11]>> Um and openly also we have what we learning and we can also bring that out.

[00:01:16]M >> so basically once life is a going concern as you move you learn I mean you are you are taught so many things and you have to adjust yourself properly to fit in the situation you find yourself um uh I mean currently as it were so as a party we we actually learning well just like President John Ramani Mama >> who would have thought that he will emerge as president again in this country I mean after 8 years at home >> and after all the problems he took us through in 2016 in his first term brought us to 2016 people were actually very angry with him >> angry with his party to said that he himself was angry with his party calling his party a lame horse and all those things but he's back as a president today so it means that he might have learned a lot >> as a result adjusted himself put himself right and then he's back again as it were so like that's why I say it's a cycle we are in so we we work out we're working out >> will be joined by Lamar Panga the deputy C of the gaming commission um joins us on sett How you doing?

[00:02:16]>> You know, you're on you're on TV this Saturday and you were firing on IMF, you know, no bad hold guns blazing. Amazing.

[00:02:25]I hope you are doing well. I'm doing very well. Amazing. By God's grace, money.

[00:02:29]>> Great. Come on. I'll start off with you, right? And I ask you the question around whether as a party you are you've learned the mistakes of the past because it's often said that those who don't know, you know, the mistakes of the past and their history are bound to repeat them. your minority leader, you know, became the center of controversy, you know, over the weekend around some comments he made on the judiciary, particularly the judge in the case of Abbron. Um, the Ghana Association have come out to say that it was unethical.

[00:03:02]In fact, many other independent-minded analysts have said that it is a very slippery slope as far as you know, our democratic dispensation is concerned as a party. Do you still stand by the comments he made?

[00:03:17]>> Well, thank you very much and um to start off, I would have once again to say good morning even though you have officially introduced us and then welcome our brother who has just joined us. Um I mean our our brother in power you know and you can look at him you see it. I mean it's it's visibly on him.

[00:03:34]It's written clearly on him that the less of power.

[00:03:45]Anyway, and um let me say very good morning to our flag bearer, the new of the new patriotic party, Dr. Al-Haji Mahmud Buma >> and his spouse. He's I believe he's watching. I mean, he watches >> he likes channel one.

[00:03:58]I can tell he doesn't joke with his morning shows and all that. Um, good morning to him and of course the incoming president of the Republic of Ghana inshallah on the 7th of January 2029 he shall be sworn in. Now you ask a simple question.

[00:04:14]our minority or the minority leader who is our leader >> in parliament >> um has said one or two things and some people think that he's gone >> or he's crossed the red line and thinks they would have to come after him or say things that of course would point to critiquing what he said you see I have always maintained that in the political space we have comment comments made, okay, that may be deemed to be very political, >> okay? And then we have other comments made that may be deemed to be indeed what is expected of us all as it were.

[00:05:01]And the question I would have to ask here, who is clean?

[00:05:10]Who is fair?

[00:05:13]who goes without blame and this our political dispensation who I I always do not like a situation where I would have to >> do do you know that thing where Christ was on the >> ground it is finished >> I always do not like trying to compare and contrast what someone said yesterday and what someone is saying today and whatever we're building a nation as it were but of course >> if it is the NDC >> that is coming after a market what moral right have do they have >> has NDC said anything >> no I'm asking the government to be >> Felix spoke >> Felix is more called on the GBA take note but >> and chastise him and went after him as well just come to me ahead is no NDC member fact he's a member of parliament the last time I checked ahead of so so he should know that go ahead >> so if it's the NDC or elements of the NDC in government who think they can come after him what moral right do they have >> why Felix himself is on record to have told the whole world that the legal architecture of this country in fact the entire judiciary of this country are appendages of the MPP it's to have said that it's on voice it's on video M >> today he has a moral right to say someone is not speaking well speaking well really since when did he learn that >> since when did Felix know that attacking the judiciary is wrong elements of the NDC are in this country they are on record to have called a certain chief justice what names women organizer of a political party when in fact she's not today holier than thou they're the best really >> but my question to you was very simple.

[00:07:12]They are record to have look described the entire justices of the superior court of this country as unanimous FC >> these people >> today Ghanaians should listen to them >> that is why I'm saying that look >> me I don't enjoy going on if you know me so well the way I do my politics I try to make sure the objectivity plays >> because we are speaking to people who are so discerning who are helping us build this nation >> as it were and we have actually enacted laws that are binding on all of us >> and then enacted regulations that are binding on all of us. So when I'm speaking I always want to stay put on what the law says and what ought to have been done.

[00:07:56]>> Okay. So >> my my question to you was that in spite of this really robust background you give us >> Yes.

[00:08:02]>> Do you get a sense that the minority leader overstepped his his the boundaries? So if you listen to me, I did say I did say that the environment may call for the comments that he made.

[00:08:14]That is why I described some comments as political statements and some comments maybe as legal statement just to differentiate it.

[00:08:21]>> You understand? And I'm asking on what podium was he >> he was at the party headquarters >> but it doesn't justify >> with a great respect. Understand my context. What I'm I'm not trying to justify maybe the castigation of the judiciary in this country at all. I am not I am not trying to justify maybe the vilification of the judiciary of this country. No, that is why I'm saying that yesterday it happened. Today if it's happening both are wrong.

[00:08:49]>> Interesting.

[00:08:49]>> If we can draw that as it were. But see let's come to the meat of the matter.

[00:08:54]This seeming introduction of the criminal liberal law which was repealed somewhere in 2001 or so >> by the kufur le administration should not be countenance should not be allowed.

[00:09:11]>> Journalists have hailed president Kufur and the then attorney general Nana Adonaku who eventually became the president of the republic of Ghana as well. They were they are full of praises for them for doing what they did because we all saw what the pre free press editor then was taken through that 20 24-hour imprisonment that they gave to him just to soil his records as a result of criminal liberal law.

[00:09:40]>> Okay.

[00:09:40]>> Yeah.

[00:09:41]>> When the constitution guarantees a free media per article 162. We all saw what happened. So if we saw the law as obnvision in the electronic act, >> okay, that comes after people which is actually not clear >> and the provision in our criminal and offenses act >> that also comes after people for false publication and all that. So section 9 of the electronic communications act.

[00:10:13]>> These are laws the parliament of Ghana must look at again if indeed we want to ensure that free speech is held in high esteem >> because that is where the prosecutors hide okay and call them misde and then bring people before the judges and then you may think that the judge is being unfair to anybody because if those laws are not there nobody will hold someone to that level.

[00:10:35]>> Thank you.

[00:10:35]>> Okay.

[00:10:36]>> I'll come back to you. Let let me just give some background to this. Right. So the accused person in this in this story we're discussing Kami Bafu known as Abbron DC. He was arraigned before the Ara circuit court on 13th May 2026 and the charges against him was offensive conduct um to the breach of peace and this is in breach of section um 207 of the criminal code. Right. And also he was accused of um of offensive conduct and also um breaching public peace and and and uh I think pushing uh fear right causing fear and panic and now the council >> the law itself is nebulous very nebulous you have read it well >> the law is not clear honestly >> let let me come to let me come to lic before I I take Larry's view um there are concerns like um um Kamala that this marks of you know sneaking in the sedicious criminal liel law that was repealed in 2001 and many feel like the consistent silence of the executive on this particular matter is quite definite. What are your concerns?

[00:11:47]>> Good morning to you again and good morning to our listeners and my brothers on the panel. Um I think that we are we are refusing to accept that in every society there are checks and balances that keeps all of us on our toe. We all have freedoms but there's never been any society where we have absolute freedom where we can all go at each other without limitations. Limitations are to help us to all behave in a particular manner. The fact that we had the uh criminal labor law at some point expanded from our criminal law books does not mean that there are no other laws. There are parliament perfectly pass the laws on the electronic communication act.

[00:12:33]>> The laws some of the other laws in the criminal uh offenses act remains.

[00:12:38]>> What was what was this law?

[00:12:40]>> 28 act 775.

[00:12:42]>> Okay. Who was the president then?

[00:12:44]>> Don't worry.

[00:12:46]I I can give you a plethora of examples of laws that even 2008 it was the MPP by President so majority this morning you know so for me my my point is that parliament I wouldn't even say MP passed it >> to let him appreciate that it is parliament we're talking about Ghana in general and not political parties parliament passed the law and the law is a law once the law has been passed. No matter how nebulous it is because of your limited understanding of the law, does not mean that you can go ahead and do whatever you want. If you think you don't have a understanding of the law, it is all right to say that yes, I may have some challenges appreciating the interpretation of the law. But that is why everybody who is placed before the court has a lawyer. M >> if your lawyer thinks that there's a good cause to challenge the law itself on which you are being charged he has the right to do so I haven't heard anywhere anywhere that any of the lawyers defense lawyers have challenged the law under which any of them have been charged indeed if you know a markings as lawyer for Abra was the one prayed in court for bail >> he did not in any way challenge the jurisition of the court the law that the gentleman was being prosecuted for or for the charges that he has been has been has been placed on him.

[00:14:13]>> So sometimes we need to be fair and then I think that if we continue this cycle of recycling examples and trying to justify it. I mean I understand my brother sometimes difficult when you find yourself in some of these situations to able to explain yourself out of it.

[00:14:32]comparison.

[00:14:38]We are not doing ourel any any service good service. is slowly slowly we are dragging the country into a cycle of MPP does it NDC does it MP does it NDC does it and we're just comparing ourselves who has done it more or who is doing it less >> but see Lant is proposing the misinformation disinformation and other information bill right you know being championed by the ministry um of communication and it seeks to make the point that aspects of this electronic communication bill and in fact even um act 208 is is primitive, right? So why still go on that tangent to use that to um like in other words from the minority persecute you know political opponents. See my brother >> appreciate that an intention to bring a new bill >> to augment what we have does not mean that the existing law becomes nonfunctional and illegal. The existing law will continue to be the existing law. The proposal to bring a bill to amend or add or take away does not necessarily mean that we should suspend the implementation. We have all sat on this TV several times and other programs to say that one of the biggest challenges in Ghana is enforcement of our laws. So if you have the lawyer not enforcing what are we doing to ourselves? What are we doing to ourselves? I mean I can appreciate that sometimes we we are compelled to look at other examples and say other people have done worse and so it is it is >> all right for us to say that somebody may not have the moral right to now be questioned but mind you there are certain lines that we don't expect people to cross I mean someone like the minority leader leader is not an ordinary lawyer not an ordinary citizen we have expectations high expectations of him because he is the minority leader he's being a lawyer for at at least more than 20 years. He has been in private practice for a long time. He's held with a lot of respect. He leads the NPP in parliament. People look up to him.

[00:16:42]>> Young lawyers are looking up to him.

[00:16:43]Ordinary citizens are looking up to him.

[00:16:45]If he can go out there and attack a a judge in a manner in which he did, it's most unfortunate to say the least.

[00:16:52]>> He went too low and I think that he's slowly losing his respect >> if he doesn't hold. I understand that he's having a challenge. He's having a challenge to remain relevant in the NPP particularly when he weren't supporting Ken Japon and Kenya didn't win the primaries. He's trying we don't know that for I am telling you as a matter I'm telling you evidence to suggest but as as for the evidence of you supporting Kenya it is you know it you and I don't open he openly he openly he openly said it and gave reasons why he couldn't support anyone but Ken and it was based on his friendship his loyalty and all that that is fine he is struggling so hard to catch the endorsement of Ba to keep him as minority leader so he must at all times remain relevant For a lawyer to desend so low to attack a judge and not just a a judgment. See as lawyers we are allowed to criticize judgment. We are allowed to speak about judgment. We're allowed to write on it.

[00:17:47]In fact as a matter of fact anytime a lawyer appeals against a judgment. It is a criticisms of the judge judge's judgment.

[00:17:54]>> It's to say that the judgment is in error. Is to say the judgment does not comply with laid established principles of law.

[00:18:02]But to attack a judge, to call into question the judge's even qualification as a lawyer, to call into questions whether the judge read the law, to call into question whether the judge pass his exams, it is the most lowest point that any person can go, particularly a lawyer of his standard. But um interesting, what are your what will be your response to concerns around the fact that section 208 of the criminal code and 207? So 208 talks about um the publication of false news. 207 is on the offensive conduct which are the main charges brought against Abra has outlived his youthfulness and is become a ploy for you know the executive through the judiciary to prosecute and persecute in their words um political opponents. Do you agree that the law has outlived this usefulness?

[00:18:49]>> Let me let me let me tell you >> laws is >> this is the um >> criminal offenses >> criminal offenses. Yes. sections 28 and >> the one the one on force publication and then the other one on um >> offensive conduct >> offensive conduct see these are the words by by the way Abon used on the judge for which he's being um tried in court he says you're not a judge but rather a politician and you have covered your hair with a sack and claim you're a judge and and they are concerned that this is at most defamation and not necessarily causing fear and panic or public fear or even offensive conduct any contempt of court.

[00:19:25]>> Please let me let me help you so that we can all help the public.

[00:19:29]>> You under normal circumstance a judge cannot bring an action or defamation against an individual. Mind you a judge can't do so. The judges are protected.

[00:19:38]>> They are protected and one of the protection they have is the tool of contempt. As a citizen of the country, you are not supposed to make comments to act in a manner that will bring the administration of justice into dispute.

[00:19:53]All of us here sitting in on this table and out there whenever we find any challenge the last resort will be there >> the the judicial court >> and so we are not in any way supposed to denigrate to the court or says things that will bring the admin of justice into dispute. Now to make those comments he he would there are grounds for contempt because those comments are contemptuous in so those comments can find itself within the law on making force publication on acts that are uh will create uh what do you call it section 2028 and panic >> publication of publication of forcewood and then um um >> conducting yourself in a manner that would generate some amount of um conflict or situation within this within within the environment. See, let me tell you those two laws that you mentioned a while ago, they are not they've not outlived their usefulness. The reason is that society is very dynamic. Take out political matters. Take out issues that has to do with PPP, NDC or even attack on government. Take a situation where someone goes to a funeral grounds or or a wedding grounds and for no reason the person starts casting insult at people or behaving in a manner that would create chaos.

[00:21:10]>> What offense are you going to charge him with?

[00:21:12]>> So there's there's a proposed one which is in the misinformation, disinformation and other informations bill which you know sorts of addresses and puts in place the right punitive measures.

[00:21:23]Right. So for this one you are jailed but this one is suggesting that maybe fines and also addresses the the loopholes where politicians are able to keep you in on remand for two weeks before the cases >> I think you're not being mindful of this this offenses you just read a while ago but they are misdemeanors >> there there should fine >> the maximum sentence for those offenses that you just read out is 6 months >> and for you the law is necessary >> so the law should continue to be there you shouldn't just look at it from a partisan lens Now the proposal for the law on misinformation, disinformation, the rest has to do with the dynamic nature of how social media has become >> and how we can bring in laws to kept some amount of information that is put on social media.

[00:22:06]>> You know today there are actually acts in social media and and other non nonformal media platforms >> that sometimes it's difficult to find any law to pin people with. But when you pass a law specifically on misinformation, disinformation, you are able to deal with the particular issues regarding the manner in which >> Thank you. Thank you for for for that.

[00:22:29]Let me come to Li right and I don't know like do you get the sense that the minority leader really overstepped you know the boundaries of of what is expected of him as a minority leader?

[00:22:42]>> I think he did.

[00:22:44]>> I think he did. I think he did because uh he's a lawyer and not just an ordinary lawyer, a senior lawyer at the bar.

[00:22:54]>> Yeah.

[00:22:54]>> Aren has appeared before you know many of the courts. Okay. From the the the lowest court which is the circuit court all the way to the Supreme Court.

[00:23:04]>> The lowest court the magistrate court >> you get. Okay. The magistrate court. So uh he knows the system and knows its operations and so on. now knows that when you disagree with this particular court, you have you knowh you can go further and then have your case heard and then whatever relieves you want you can be granted. Okay.

[00:23:29]But to choose the option he did which was also you know allowed as in the press conference. However, your choice of words, your choice of words. Sometimes you can be making, you know, I can tell lamb take don't be stupid and he won't take that no offense but then say lic don't be stupid tone is different.

[00:23:56]>> Yeah, >> you get it.

[00:23:59]>> What he said and how he put it, I mean was totally uncomfortable. the body language >> I don't have respect for him went further to say that I don't know whether he passed his you know uh bar exams are you saying that the courts as we have it have a fake or yeah >> an unqualified judge >> an unqualified judge that's a serious matter >> let's go back to when this gentleman became a judge I'm sure we will be shocked as to when he became a judge and the rulings he's given you know in the past >> you know but >> is it the first time you are seeing you know the executive you know launch onto the judiciary and criticize them in this okay let me say partisan you know interest right in the previous administration too in fact there were times the president the former president at the time opposition leader suggested that the bench was an unanimous FC to suggest again that we had a similar mindset.

[00:25:06]>> Are we are we equalizing?

[00:25:08]>> You see, >> are we equalizing? If we are equalizing then I mean let's all go there and put things out there. For me it's neither here we are talking about what has happened now.

[00:25:21]>> Okay. Because what we what what the argument you are the arena you are drawing me into is to say that okay ah once this one has said it before and this one you know has replied tomorrow.

[00:25:36]>> Okay. And then the next woman I'll shoot him dead and then somebody else will come and then pull a gun on me because oh I did it in the past. This equalization doesn't you know it doesn't help anybody.

[00:25:53]>> It doesn't help anybody whatsoever. The times are different.

[00:25:58]>> How do we tone down the rhetoric? Right.

[00:26:00]Let me start with you before I come to my the the other panel because clearly across the table we agree that the insistent attacks on the judiciary is something we should not condone right and is the last bastion of saving the democracy that we have. What should be the approach going forward in terms of protecting our judiciary and insulating them from some of the vitrol we see from both parties? You see this morning I mean I was expecting that among your topics >> was what President Mama did I mean did at Geneva >> solid point international international platform talking about the health situation in Ghana >> Africa for that matter >> I'll give you time to talk about >> you get it >> but we've been drawn to talk about >> ab is still important for democracy >> oh I'm coming I haven't said it's not I haven't said it's not important M >> come on we are living with various health conditions and so on and our biggest challenge is where people you know give us money today and tomorrow they say listen yeah mama >> regarding health >> you get it I mean for me that is what I want us to talk about but we've been drawn to this thing because see we have the luxury of you know >> just promise you time to talk about this >> no I'm coming we have the luxury of smartphone luxury of internet so you can easily walk into a shop and buy a microphone, okay? And you want to, you know, and go and do social media because you have followers and you want to be politically relevant in the scheme of things and people will watch you. And to do that, it's how abusive and vitriolic you can be >> on people, >> call you names and then off I go. Okay.

[00:27:45]And we want to say that because you know we have certain laws or we say that freedom of speech people can just say anything and go score free.

[00:27:56]>> Then one one moment I'll kill you and I need to go score free because it's freedom of expression of my body language.

[00:28:05]>> Okay.

[00:28:06]>> Freedom of expression of my body language. We don't have to get here.

[00:28:10]>> It should be practiced with a certain modicum of responsibility. My guy >> people are are hiding behind politics to say all manner of things. Come out in all sincerity and honesty. Would you say the things that Abra said to a judge?

[00:28:29]Come on, respond.

[00:28:30]>> It's a rhetorical question.

[00:28:31]>> No answer.

[00:28:34]>> No, I'll answer when I give time.

[00:28:37]>> You know my my next question to you Kamar was actually in the same line, right? Because you know it's undeniable that we've seen the rise of reckless speech, of insults, and in fact partisan abuse in some instances, right? And there are concerns that it's a growing threat to our civility as a people.

[00:28:56]>> Do do you get a sense that this is where we draw the line, right, and say that we shouldn't attack the judiciary? And maybe in your responses, you can help us with how going forward.

[00:29:06]>> You respond to my question. you of that I will respond together.

[00:29:10]>> And you see >> when I drive past the Supreme Court building >> in Ara, >> I see the mis >> okay and I asked myself how did we get there then?

[00:29:27]How did these judges judges die? What caused it? because somebody thought or that I wasn't happy with the way they doing their work.

[00:29:38]Okay. As a result, they suffered death illegally.

[00:29:47]I thought that would have been an end >> to Ghanaians speaking ill of the judiciary.

[00:29:55]>> But you see, we have to also draw the line. Speaking ill of the judiciary is different from criticizing the judiciary.

[00:30:03]Scandalizing the court is different from actually analyzing what emanates from the court. There are two things.

[00:30:11]>> So if you ask a question as to how we can nip this in the bad, the responsibility that we have given to our judiciary or our judges must also be held in high esteem by them. very important because that is why in the settings of law I'm not a lawyer but lawyers will always impug what we call likelihood of bias >> when a case is ongoing to the extent that sometime they even apply for somebody to recuse himself from a particular matter okay >> because of the the the perception that the person may be what bias what actually emanates from the court is what we have to say must also be held in high esteem and must actually be what in conjunction with the law. Anytime it it comes, I'm sorry about that.

[00:31:00]>> But if you have judges who decide that they'll put the constitution aside >> and use animal farm as their reference in judgments, >> it's problematic. It's problematic. And when somebody now comes out to speak and that person who may not be guided by emotions or who may not actually be emotionally intelligent at that moment goes overboard >> then you see the person as attacking.

[00:31:27]>> He sounds >> no respect attacking the judges. You see I I brought this up because no respect respect I brought this up because >> when home sells something he said the judge sitting there >> is a realist.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah. In his view, judgment is actually the person sitting there and what the person thinks is the law.

[00:31:50]>> That is why most judges say the law is in my bosom and I decide to do whatever I want to do. However, no, it shouldn't be the case.

[00:31:56]>> Even sentencing, you have a guide.

[00:31:58]>> Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> So, >> but still in his bosom, >> no, it's still in the B. But you have a guide. You can't go overboard. Why?

[00:32:03]There are cases you can even site in court. Lawyers cannot. They still as bad cases. There are a lot of cases because of the attitude of the judge, nobody will site it. If the judge is even making a mistake, it's that mistake.

[00:32:13]>> I'M NOT SAYING IT IS NOT. I want to take it away. But it's still a mistake.

[00:32:16]>> Yeah, >> you have the right to do it. So if you have your right, that is why you are supposed to be emotionally balanced as a judge.

[00:32:22]>> How on earth? Let's look at what happened to Abra.

[00:32:25]>> Yes.

[00:32:26]>> Would a judge say that go I refuse. I am reminding you until the matter is determined for God's sake.

[00:32:34]>> What matter is it >> the matter? Let me let me give a background. Let me give a background.

[00:32:39]Let me give a background to this. Right.

[00:32:41]So >> you are charging somebody under section 20 for causing peer and funny and the person goes to court and then ask for bail and you say no bail go and then be there until the matter is determined.

[00:32:52]When is the matter going?

[00:32:53]>> Come on let's let's help God sick. Let's look at it.

[00:32:55]>> Let's help our let's help our viewers.

[00:32:57]Let's help our viewers and let's give some context. So the preciding judge in this matter is Joseph Yanuban Kusong.

[00:33:02]Right. And in the case that is being discussed what we know is that the accused personwam was the chairman of the MPP in the region was arraigned before the circuit court on Arab on May 13th 2026. Now the charges preferred against him included offensive conduct conducive to the breach of peace under section 2071 >> complete misdemeanor >> of the criminal code 1960 and you are the lawyer. So you help us you help us. and also the publication of false news right under section 2081 of the criminal code and also the accused had earlier been granted a police inquiry bill on 13th April >> the same matter >> and complied with all bill conditions >> by appearing before the court now also being told by his lawyers that he's had health complications and all of those other issues but let's let's look at what happened in court right so council for the accused person renewed an application for bill pending trial citing the misdemeanor nature of the offenses fix the place of public standard >> and I I I don't know for a fact so the health what I said >> and family responsibilities right and also the prosecution opposed the application arguing that the accused was likely to commit similar offenses if granted by >> he is a lawyer like I said I'm happy you educate us more but you see let me let me just use my time so the point I'm trying to make is that >> lawyers here some cases are cited in court and they see them at bad bad precedents. They don't even accept them.

[00:34:33]>> Who do I lawyers don't even want to site it? Because you know very well that it's going to be a bad case. What the judgment giving to you? You don't >> I'm saying that but see the point I want to make is that in everything we do human institution there are emotions.

[00:34:47]>> The law is in the bosom of the judge.

[00:34:48]All right.

[00:34:49]>> But the judge sitting there is for all of us because he tilts only towards the law and not anybody. M >> and now in tilting towards the law take Martin Pu for instance when he went to court why did he go to court every single offense in this country to Martin Pu then should be available and the Supreme Court agreed with Martin Pu republic versus high court is also there we have series of precedences we can site now if we have moved to this level and then a misdemeanor is brought before you as a judge >> then you then say I deny you bill of course section 96 of the criminal procedure is there clear about bill you you of the bosom all right and they give you reasons why I will deny you bail it is also clear nonetheless you do not have in my view okay to actually send out to the optics or for the optics a kind of judgment that will invite people to think that with a great respect some emotions has been read into it.

[00:35:59]>> Come on.

[00:35:59]>> But see all this conversation for me sometime when the fish >> is rotten it starts from there.

[00:36:04]>> It start from there. Thank you.

[00:36:05]>> AND IT COMES from Jim Mahama when Mahama said let me tell you about himself in the president in opposition made a comment. Maybe Link was in that meeting when he was meeting lawyers of the NBC.

[00:36:20]>> I'm not sure.

[00:36:21]>> What did he say? He said >> in his view >> there are NP judges >> and there are NDC judges >> and there are NDC judges. So when somebody now you make such statement out as a political heritage FIGURE YOU ARE INVITING PEOPLE TO now also read politics in some of the comments or actions and of judges >> and that will be a problem. But nonetheless we all have to condemn it.

[00:36:42]We all have to condemn whatever goes against our one minute to respond. I have a question for I know you want to just respond to quickly respond in a minute on drawing John into this minute in a minute. It has been established in this country by researchers by academicians that there are judgments of this court of supreme court that are politically influenced >> and this was made known to the please please by professor when he first made this comment that based on research and based on trends and listen >> I heard I didn't I appreciate that I didn't appate I appreciate that you have Islamic selective selective I didn't hear it wrong. It is wrong for you to draw John Muhammad to this. No, no, no. It's very wrong for you to draw. See this comment is not in isolation to John Muhammad alone. We have had this issues even coming from some members of the NPP as well. We have made comments. There have been comments by academicians who are neither PPP nor NDC. So that's a danger. Wait, wait, wait. It's not a danger.

[00:37:54]See, let me tell you something. If you if you take your time, you see when you spoke, you said I should allow you to speak. So, let me let me allow me to also spend my 1 minute so you can have your time. See >> we can we have had people who have researched read judgments look at the trends and had made pronouncements that some of the judgments are based particular political matters >> matters that have political undertones are influenced by political uh considerations and these comments were made long ago. Laribi made similar comments at made similar comments. My own brother Amalba made similar comments in the past. It is not new.

[00:38:36]>> In fact, we have had situation to complain. I mean you and I sat in this country. There were simple applications that went to the Supreme Court that we we could predict. And in fact, this issue that you keep saying that NDC said the Supreme Court were unanimous FC.

[00:38:50]>> As a matter of fact, there's a principle of law that you you may be later you may appreciate. There's certain something we call predictivity. The law must be predictable. The law must have certainty.

[00:39:00]>> I appreciate it.

[00:39:01]>> And so because of some particular trend, you can say that it appears that the court will continuous. Oh, what is the name? If you say it's going to be unanimous, wait, wait, wait, wait. If you say it's going to be unanimous, it has a minute.

[00:39:15]Fair enough fair.

[00:39:22]You recall when John Muhammad won the election polic?

[00:39:25]>> Yes.

[00:39:26]>> Do you remember the things that were said? Yes.

[00:39:28]>> You know against the then Supreme Court bench.

[00:39:31]>> You recall that some even accused them of hurting bribe.

[00:39:34]>> But they wrote a whole song about them.

[00:39:36]>> Oh, they did. Okay. Can you play it on your were brought before them before >> in the course of the matter when they have made comments that were contemptuous the matter but even when the matter ended >> when they said that facilitated bribes to the Supreme Court.

[00:39:51]>> For me I'll give you I'll give you time. Yes, I'll give up. You talk about the law of predictability, right? So, for example, you look at the prosecution's position on this >> to suggest that you know the the said person was likely to commit similar acts. Is that not a bit too preemptive?

[00:40:14]Okay. So, let me I think this morning and in the last few days we have misinformed the public about what happened in court and actually what has been the matter. M >> see Abbron was first brought to court if you remember somewhere in April in another matter >> where he was remanded by the same judge >> and they went to the high court and got obtained bills for him.

[00:40:36]>> Now the judge at the time remanded him.

[00:40:38]Subsequently he's been brought to court in a different matter. This current case we are discussing is different from the first case.

[00:40:44]>> Oh it's different.

[00:40:45]>> Yeah. There are two different cases that BR is facing. They are similar right?

[00:40:48]They all on talking about the similarity. There are different suit numbers. There are different charges before in involving Abra in court.

[00:40:58]And so when he was brought on the second charge in a different matter involving the same person, one of the grounds for granting of bill is whether or not you are likely to commit a offense when granted bill among other conditions. And so the judge in considering the fact that ah you are the same person appearing before me in a different matters similar to the charges before me. You have gone ahead to commit. In fact, let me tell you one thing. If you are granted bill, you hold yourself like an egg.

[00:41:25]>> You avoid anything that will create problems for you because if you appear before the same judge, don't forget that the judge is exercising discretion. Bill is a discretion. Yeah, >> you were talking you made references to Martin and other cases that bill every offense is a billable but the discussion lies with the judge to consider whether you have a permanent place of abboard whether you have you you're lucky not to interfere with the the the investigations whether you make yourself available or you a flight risk or you are likely to commit a similar offense when granted bill and so if you have been granted bill in an offense first offense and then you are brought to court again in a similar offense. Why do you expect that judge to allow you to go home? In any case, even that judge exercises the discretion wrongly. You have the right to appeal.

[00:42:13]>> In fact, you have the right to even bring an application for bill before that same judge pointing to the judge that circumstance have changed.

[00:42:20]>> You understand? The judge may give a higher bill condition to ensure that you will behave yourself or you can even go to the high court. You can go to court of appeal. You have options. It is completely wrong. In fact, what a makings did is worse than what even ab is believed to have done because for him he is even the lawyer. Let me tell you one of the things that Markins has done which is very wrong. As a lawyer in a matter you are not allowed to grant interview and make comment about the case that suspended because he appeared in court as lawyer for Bron >> and per own rules that govern in this case. Yes, he appeared in court with Baf >> remember and announced himself as lawyers for >> AJ the same guy who had attacked another judge.

[00:43:08]>> The same judge.

[00:43:09]>> Oh, >> so you see it is clear that they are on an agenda to just denigrate the judge, denigrate the judiciary. I mean we've seen the conduct of the minority.

[00:43:22]>> Please, please, please, please, you had opportunity to speak. You did so you've seen the the conduct of the my minority even at the at the time of the vetting at the time of the ving at the time of the ving of the chief justice the conduct in the words and the manner in which the minority behaved during the vetting all the way to to today we've seen comments they've passed in respect of how to was removed and so we know clearly that they are on an agenda to attack the judiciary and and and and denigrate the judiciary. Let's talk about your party's position on the Ghana Bar Association, right? I mean, we listen to the government communication minister. Use very strong words, right?

[00:43:58]And he's not the only person in the party to have suggested that the bar association is always aligned or seemingly aligned to the new patriotic party. In fact, that led some prominent members of your party to even start what they call the law society. Yes.

[00:44:14]>> Which is being, you know, deliberated on in court. Are you are you a member of the law?

[00:44:18]>> I am a member of both both associations.

[00:44:20]>> Yeah. member of both the Ghana association. I'm an active I'm an active member. There is no other bar from having multiple membership of any association professional association.

[00:44:34]Fair enough.

[00:44:38]Unfortunately, we don't drink here.

[00:44:56]the bar association is seen as a guardrail largely many even describe them as a voice of conscience in times where you are not sure about some things happening in the country for the government communication minister to have gone all to describe them in the words that he used. Is that not also >> as problematic as some of the positions you decrying here?

[00:45:18]>> Yeah. So, um >> but this is a new topic you have introduced.

[00:45:21]>> It's all this question. You know, it was >> I have an opportunity to don't worry that's fine. But it's completely new.

[00:45:27]But because I know we'll move on to what happened.

[00:45:32]>> Let's get to the issue. So, listen. I I side and agree absolutely with the minister for government communication, government communication when he spoke that listen and called out the Ghana bar situation. We have observed a trend in this country over some time >> when persons of the NP go after judges and act in a manner that sometime require the GBA to come out and speak and make pronouncements and make sometimes condemn the actions. they've been silent and sometimes they even delay in taking coming out. We have seen the swiftness in which they have issued statements in the past condemning actions of certain persons. See when professor made those comments several years ago about judgments that are sometimes NP and NDC >> it was the Ghana bar association that came among other persons to condemn him >> and called him out.

[00:46:26]>> Frank Davis >> Frank Davis at the time was the greater crow baraba president. I'm a member of the bar. I'm an active member. I'm a member in good standing. And I think that sometimes we our association has to show neutrality and objectivity. We don't have to choose select to be nice to others and select others as as if treating them as as if they are stepchildren.

[00:46:48]>> So you side with Felix.

[00:46:49]>> So I agree with him perfectly. But I must say that quickly the Ghana station had made some pronouncement yesterday through the pro. They came out >> eyewitness news. condemn they condemn the actions of a markings which I welcome and I think that we we need to see more of that and it is not just enough to start just condemning. I think the Ghana station should start acting by sometimes placing certain persons be before the Ghana general legal council for proper disciplinary actions.

[00:47:16]>> I think is one of such persons.

[00:47:18]>> I think so. I mean you see the reason is that if we allow some of these things to go it will build a culture of impunity.

[00:47:24]We would would encourage others to behave in similar manners and we cannot do anything about it.

[00:47:30]>> Larry, maybe your brief thoughts but also add the the issue around whether the the silence of the executive in all of this that is ongoing is a tacit endorsement of of of their support.

[00:47:42]>> Who is prosecuting?

[00:47:43]>> Oh, the republic.

[00:47:45]>> Okay. The police are the ones prosecuting for and on behalf of >> attorney attorney general. We understand how the power dynamics work sometimes.

[00:47:53]Well, I get you. But the point is that you see I've I've heard this argument about how sometimes the police could just, you know, pick up some of these things and start prosecuting. And there are instances where it's been said that the state or sorry as in the executives yeah government wasn't aware of it. But that is not something that people will buy into. You get it? But you could have a site police officers getting quite excited to do some of these things.

[00:48:25]However, in this particular case, what is the executive supposed to say or do?

[00:48:31]You get it?

[00:48:32]>> What are they supposed to do? Maybe the attorney general will want to go into it. Ah, what is happening here? Let me look into it.

[00:48:39]>> And could we issue a statement that yes, I believe in in the in the in the prosecution or I disagree with it. So, kindly stop. But I'm actually a bit confused when the he put the question that the silence of the executive.

[00:48:50]>> No, he's resp I mean it's because of what the you know Kamar and his people are bringing in that oh it's a return of the yeah the criminal liel law under president mama and that he says even his silence is is a tax 1960 >> endorsement of it. You get it? So that is where you hear some of this coming from that oh he is silent and so meaning that he's endorsed it. Maybe he had spoken as oh listen >> you know he the man is directing the judiciary as to what he should do. You recall president at Mills at a point in time people wanted to demonstrate and then the police said no hey we don't have enough men to do this thing and then president sorry President Mill stepped in and says oh listen allow them to demonstrate then he said no demonstrate you nothing to push back >> yes you know that why should the president tell us that the police should be allow should allow us to to do the demonstration >> I think that your silence is a statement.

[00:49:52]>> Your statement is also my problem.

[00:49:55]>> So that is >> so that makes the executive find themselves.

[00:49:58]>> You get it? So but I think that this issue about I mean the position of the judiciary. We've heard people like Atuga, >> Professor Atuguba, you know, did the research gave and so on. The day he was saying that was the same day that Kandapa also made you know his comments that some of their you know rulings >> had become problematic. Yes.

[00:50:23]>> And that people were put in some variation sort of and even there the government the national security minister at the time >> was uncomfortable with it because he poses security risk. He said that I mean of course people attack him and his own party people even attack him the most >> but we are back here.

[00:50:43]>> Kamal didn't hear that you have the final word.

[00:50:46]>> Yeah. Good.

[00:50:47]>> Very briefly you deal with >> Have you like help?

[00:50:52]>> You see if you listen to Larry so well >> Larry said silence >> could be interpreted to mean a response.

[00:51:00]>> Non silence >> could be interpreted. Absolutely. In the diplomatic circles I know when you are silent it means you have given an answer to every matter.

[00:51:09]>> So in everywhere we can find that you see we are worried.

[00:51:13]>> So so >> we have worried also endorses what is >> because the point why the flag is not the president now >> he's our leader. a leader but of course we talking about the constitution of Ghana has given and who has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution of Ghana talking about but we have an o of office yet so I'm saying that but we haven't sw but the point is that >> executive you have sworn an oath to uphold the constitution of Ghana in highest >> look human rights is not a joke my brother is here they don't joke with issues of human rights >> yeah Okay. Why is the law saying that even at a point you could trigger an application in court okay of hibius scopus because of human rights fundamentally >> constitutions have been changed because of that. So abon as a citizen of this country have some rights and those rights are very very very fundamental and we don't have to joke with it. So when it happens that way of course we expect with the the dispatch with which you came to talk about Ghana basic >> SHOULD TALK ABOUT >> ALSO COME OUT TO TALK ABOUT HOW fundamental human right of this country is actually trampled upon >> let me bring some messages for me IUI so I've also mentioned the Ghana sorry the law society as well that why didn't they also >> absolutely in fact I am the communication director we issued a statement much earlier on when when a markings and bar had their go at the judiciary. We issued a statement.

[00:52:55]>> Yes, we did.

[00:52:56]>> So you attend meetings here and >> interesting interesting did not you take a quick but before we do that let me just let me just bring some messages great legal insights from um LIG on the show today explaining the issues into details and this is how we like it. Um um this other message also coming says we are only making a mockery of ourselves with this article in our constitution that restricts free speech is baffling that as a nation we agreed to repeal a criminal liel law yet you are still clinging to a provision that curtails expression. What's even more is happening is how >> responsible what's even more is happening is how the current administration is weaponizing state agencies to use this law to which hunt opponents amino in saw good good morning Jude this is abnu manarigu from savana what the minority leader said about the judge was not wrong why does this always happen to MP members anytime they are taken to a particular court is he the only judge in Ghana why does he seem to like the PPP members and are being targeted and threatened as if you are not Ghanaians The arrest of arena chairman and party members looks more like a political witch hunt than justice. If Ghanaians stay silent today is because it's happening to MP members.

[00:54:04]Those involved should take notes before the MPP returns to power in 2029. Since John Mahama came only have been arrested. Meanwhile, you have some NDC appointees who've said west and done west but they have not been picked up for even questioning. Why is this the case? Oh, Ghana 20. Oh, Ghana, this is happening in this big 2026. Um, AJ from New Town sends that one from Lashib when NDC attack judges the chief justice calling it all kinds of names including lawyers. Hypocrisy at the highest.

[00:54:37]What's not good is not but the hypocrisy on NDC side is just overwhelming. I like the legal mind from your guest um from the NDC. Yes, Mamik is is his name. He's explained the issues quite well and the position of the court on issues like this. And these are some of the messages when I'm come read the rest and we'll continue the show. Um don't don't go just stick and stay with us right here on Breakfast Daily. My name is Jude Duncan. We'll be right back.

[00:55:05]>> Welcome back. This is Breakfast Daily right here on Channel One TV. My name is Jude Duncan sitting in for a regular host Natu Batin. We'll move on to our second conversation. But we are still staying in the courts because the big story is that 20 new charges have been filed against ex NAFFCO boss and an except of the story as reported by city newsroom.com is that the former national food and buffer stock company um chief executive officer Hanan Abdul Wahab and his wife FISA said Wii are facing fresh criminal charges following new legal action initiated by the office of the attorney general and the ministry of justice over alleged financial mont.

[00:55:45]conduct involving millions of Ghana cities. According to the court documents filed at a high court on Acra May 15, 2026, which was last week and Friday, the couple has been charged with a total of 20 counts relating to alleged financial impropriety and Mr. Abdul Wahab's tenure as head of the state food management agency. The charges include stealing, defrauding by false pretense, abuse of public office for profit and money laundering. And all of these mark a significant escalation the legal troubles confronting the former NAFO boss and his spouse. Now Larry, I'll start off with you. You've been following these issues very keenly and I've reported extensively on it in your in your paper.

[00:56:28]The decision by the attorney general to drop the initial charges and rearrest him and come back with these huge charges have come to many as you know they're not really clear what the position really is as far as the ag prosecution of this matter is can you give us some insights right to whether this is the best approach based on all that you know about this case >> I don't have an insight into this particular thing. What what has been filed before sorry what was filed before >> similar charges >> yes but and what has been filed now what I know is that there were things ongoing in the court which eventually led to the withdrawal I think the the defense team had gotten certain rulings in their favor a few times and so uh and people weren't too excited about it and so when the withdrawal came people were asking was it because of uh I mean some of this shortfalls and that he had given a certain impression of the case eventually >> uh I don't know if that is what led to the withdrawal and then the refiling and you know all that I don't know what I don't know much about it but I would want to compare what was filed before and what has been filed now I also would have appreciated the attorney general himself stepping out to tell us why I mean this approach because on in the earlier one he did a press conference.

[00:58:02]>> Yeah.

[00:58:02]>> And then told us about what he intended doing.

[00:58:06]>> He did for many of the oral cases as well.

[00:58:08]>> Yes. He what he had you know found and then went to you know I mean then days later he went to court with it. uh I would have expected that he carries the country along by telling us that oh guys this is what I I mean I found out during the case that I felt that oh there are certain things we didn't touch >> and so we are now touching it now and then bringing these guys before you >> and it's part of the corruption >> you know fight >> uh having said that I think that we as media people also have to follow the matter keenly >> I mean this morning maybe we should have put the the charges before and the charges now. Maybe we you know we'll see some.

[00:58:52]>> I'll dig it up and just share as the show goes on.

[00:58:55]>> But I wanted to say something about the earlier topic.

[00:58:58]>> You want to take us?

[00:59:00]>> Yeah. You know I just midway I recall what happened in the Montier case >> where you know some people were jailed you know the commitment then yes you can't scandalize the court so and so and I go to jail you know and so on and some people went to jail >> in Monte 3 >> but they were eventually pardoned against >> not they went to jail >> but they were pardoned they went to jail >> so the full effect of the of the punitive measure they went to jail not have >> they went to jail let's keep to the jail >> was it enough >> they went to people were jailed people were punished >> to make his point will be forced also So they were punished. At least they were punished.

[00:59:32]>> I'm minded. Thank you.

[00:59:34]>> People were punished >> and and I'll come to you right because the kind of verve right and you know enthusiasm with which your government announced the operation recover all loot. In fact it was a flagship promise going into the election. But the the concern is that we've not seen the same energy and a case in point in fact in the initial committee setup we were told about 20 billion was at stake if we were able to recoup all of this >> the attorney general council billion dollars >> dollars thank you the attorney general council case >> no in the oral >> the whole oral then you can just trickle down to this right I don't know how much with the whole issue around dropping the charges bringing new charges what what's what do make of all that's happening.

[01:00:19]>> Well, thank you very much. Um, I think we need to understand that um, in every legal matter or in every case that before the court, >> there are certain powers and and and and authority that can be exercised by the prosecutor and the prosecutor here is attorney general.

[01:00:38]>> Now, the attorney general places a charge before you and charges you for particular offenses. In the course of the case, the attorney Junior can decide to drop some cases, add new charges, amend the charge sheet or even withdraw entirely the charges and file a fresh charge >> based on evidence available >> based on evidence available based on findings that has been made based on certain things. I mean my friend attributed to perhaps previous rulings that perhaps did not go in the in the favor of the attorney general. Of course, we all sat in this country when an objection was raised in respect of a witness statement that was being filed without leave of the court.

[01:01:17]>> But that single document could not be the only reason why the attorney general would have to withdraw. Perhaps there are facts.

[01:01:23]>> I think there was some Yoko guy also who they said they found on uh who had taken part in the investigation and then subsequently he became part of the the prosecution team and that Dami and Cole raised objection to it. I remember something like that. So at every stage of the prosecutions, at every stage of the proceedings, the attorney general has the power to withdraw the charges, has the power to amend the charges, has the power to to to even discontin the entire case, file an prosecute, do anything that he wants because it's within his discretion. And and so we should not question so much of why did he do it, but the question is will this new charges help us to achieve what we want? Don't forget that prosecutions is not necessarily about getting conviction. It's about ensuring justice.

[01:02:10]The attorney general may believe in his case and may believe that the case can lead to conviction based on the fact the evidence that he has but the he must meet the threshold the minimum threshold of proving the person's guilt beyond reasonable doubt must be. And so the attorney general would look at the nature of the facts, the evidence and then take out what is relevant, what will help him to achieve the objective he wants to. Um others have brought into issues of oral and why oral has not moved with the speech that we expect it to move. Yeah, >> I do understand and I I share similar sentiments that yes, of course, when you speak so harshly about certain findings and certain corrupt conduct in the past, you need not to waste so much time in putting those things out.

[01:02:55]>> But we all understand that it is one thing having an investigative um journalism work that would unravel certain rot or allege rot and then think that it is enough to pursue a criminal matter. Those investigations and the outcome of the investigation cannot on its own >> be the basis for a criminal conduct in court or criminal prosecution in court.

[01:03:18]You will need to properly go through proper investigations by established bodies.

[01:03:24]>> So that when you start a trial when you start presenting those evidence no one will say that I have never been confronted with these issues. One key issue is >> so some of the comments were political actually >> I would say political their findings and their matters that were done investigation were done without properly going through the proper channel of investigations.

[01:03:43]>> Interesting.

[01:03:43]>> If you take for instance an audit process an audit process must sanction a query you must come out with a temporary or a a provisional report where you raise queries and present those questions to the persons the respondents to give you response. Now if you don't do that and quickly prepare your audit report and then based on that audit you are going to prosecute someone. You will go to court and the person will tell you that I was never given an opportunity to respond to this things and you you would suffer some consequences based on that.

[01:04:13]>> With the new charges right? Yes. We're also told from the courts that this total sum involved >> you know had been dropped significantly.

[01:04:22]Is that indicative of maybe an earlier misinformed position by the attorney general thereby indicating maybe a lack of full grasps of the issue he was alleged to have been involved with?

[01:04:34]>> I don't think so. If you uh take your mind back, I think the first charge sheet had about 30 or something offenses, >> not 45 >> 42 or so.

[01:04:45]>> But I'm even referring to the the the div now. This number of charges >> is what leads to the quantum the total amount because when you have 42 charges you can have a charge of maybe defrauding by force pretend you have a charge of stealing you have a charge of um fraud you have a falsification of documentation everything all relates to amount money if you add all that it will give you a particular sum >> but if I end up reducing the charges from 42 to 20 charges obviously some figures that repeated itself earlier on will not be there anymore And so the total sum will come down. Don't forget that we take the gross amount as the the amount that the state has suffered but some of them are repeated >> because you are charged for instance in his charge there's a charge where he made they said that he falsified document to take rent >> an amount is stated there. Well, he did.

[01:05:37]>> Well, that's the allegation against him >> in over 700,000 Ghana >> 700 for rent >> alone. And then in another case, >> do you get do you get that close in amount at the gaming commission? Nowhere close to that.

[01:05:49]>> Nowhere close to that. Interesting.

[01:05:51]>> Nowhere close to that. And so it's also alleged that he recently they were how to board the two of our board.

[01:06:07]Is there can my producer don't do that? So I mean just wrapping up on this matter >> I am saying that the amount may reduce because the charges have reduced significantly from 42 to 20 charges and of course the attorney general upon review may focus on particular offenses that would achieve the objective than just to go out on a very large one.

[01:06:31]>> Interesting. Um yes come out. You see, I am happy listening to a a lawyer here >> who decided to speak to facts >> and legalities.

[01:06:42]>> He's always done actually.

[01:06:44]>> Excellent.

[01:06:44]>> But that's the question I was ask you started off by asking whether or not >> $21 billion >> that Ghanaians were told that it was going to be recovered for them. Okay.

[01:07:01]for their consolidated fund to swell look big has been achieved.

[01:07:10]>> He intelligently didn't answer you.

[01:07:14]>> Oh, I did ahead. intelligence explained propaganda is very different >> from criminal prosecution >> and I'm happy he has >> the propaganda >> $21 billion is completely garbage to be fair the committee that >> the member of the committee garbage >> the committee that said that most of the matters that they raised were garbage >> the attorney general himself >> most of the things the attorney general himself sat before one of the media houses in this country and also sat what some of the things raised in their oral investigations were untenable in the eyes of the law okay that's done >> yeah but when a lay man >> point now I want >> but when a lay man brings you fact and everything >> so when I tell you that professional can see out what is >> yes that's it that's it when I tell you that these people are out to deceive us Okay, when they know in actual fact that this is the truth, but they present this for the Ghanaian or Gable Ghanaian citizen to swallow. Okay, to agree to them and accept that they have what chased. You see the point I want to make, whoever is culpable in this country, >> including my good self, okay, who has whoever has faulted the law must be brought before the law.

[01:08:40]>> That's the position of the >> That's my position. It's the position of the MP. It is also the position of the MP.

[01:08:47]>> Okay.

[01:08:57]You are a lawyer. Can't you can't you can't can't you prosecute? You think that right before you believe oh no you don't do this I'm saying propaganda the letter P is very different from what prosecution >> completely different >> so in the case of >> so you can do all the prop can absential >> well he knows that they have even started this trial I'm aware that there's a is against K in court.

[01:09:30]>> But you make him available.

[01:09:32]>> What you make him available? About months ago, your minority leader, your minority leader told, you said you told us the last time I checked, you said you were actually working for him. He's extradition don't distort me. You speaking to matter and I'm saying the whole world knows that look this oral thing you alluded to and whatever were nothing but propaganda.

[01:09:57]>> Okay. And now he said to you that we need they need a proper investigation to have been conducted.

[01:10:02]>> Okay.

[01:10:03]>> I didn't say proper I said that true. No no no no no no lawful investigations are different from independent and private investigations or collection of data.

[01:10:13]You should appreciate the difference.

[01:10:14]>> He mentioned investigative journalism.

[01:10:16]go out there >> and put my brother okay in front and to follow whoever and said look we had done some investigations we have this amount it wasn't a criminal investigation we presenting to the president and that we could get about 21 billion at least that's the way you actually cyc s but that's okay. Hannah whether it's Hanam whether is who article 19 is clear >> presumption of innocence >> or said >> presumption presumption of innocence is actually tight in law and we all know that >> if you came before the court with several charges about 45 or whatever 42 >> and in your own wisdom after perusing everything you have done and even did held press conferences to convince Ghanaians that these were the rots that Ghanaians had to deal with and that you are going to ensure that >> the correct thing is done only for you to be in court for some time then at the tail end discharged >> no problem is it a tail end is a tail end >> oh no I'm of the first the first not >> it wasn't discharge the charges were >> kind of what you brought before the judge you discharge the person >> no the charges were >> the if you withdraw >> I mean semantics >> with allow him so I'm saying that I'm saying that if you had withdrawn your charges and the man was discharged by the court >> as it were discharge is a is is a is a mean it means a different thing in by the court. Why? When this withdraw by it's okay. I mean let's go acquitted acquitted acquitted and decided different WHEN HE WAS DISCHARGED BY THE COURT. I'M NOT WRONG.

[01:12:20]>> All right. All right. All right.

[01:12:21]>> So what's the point? So when he was discharged by the court, you rearrested him >> only to come back again with your fresh charges. I am not saying that he's guilty or he's not guilty until the court proves it. And like I said, whoever is culpable, whoever is deemed to have faltered the law, >> let him face the law.

[01:12:43]>> That is our position and that will always remain our position. However, that proving beyond reasonable doubt, of course, the honors lies on whoever alleges >> that is the attorney general. We are all here and we're watching.

[01:12:59]>> Okay?

[01:13:01]We should not do anything that is not within the law against any citizen of this country. Let's move on.

[01:13:08]>> Why? In the past people were char were charged.

[01:13:12]>> Okay. And eventually may be convicted.

[01:13:15]Some eventually you know um they filed n proquire.

[01:13:20]>> Okay. To get them out.

[01:13:22]>> Yeah.

[01:13:22]>> In the past we saw all this >> even when they came recently >> who those who said they were going to fight corruption. Larry has a final they were going to fight corruption. What did they do?

[01:13:32]>> How much time do you allocate for his point is they have to file in selective cases that they feel were their own for them nobody should prosecute them.

[01:13:44]>> I think in all you should give me their own issue issues were there that one not.

[01:13:56]M3. No worries.

[01:14:11]Like is it a case of the wheels of justice grinding very slowly cuz I'm looking at a statement particular um of offense in this particular case. So 734,400 Ghana cities um as some for some rent right and also um that's the equivalent of $127,000 and it goes on to state some what 50 million Ghana cities right in ter as um as as money stolen between February 2017 and February 2025 you know the the deputy attorney general Mai speaks about this case with a lot of strong in fact the other time said that the the council for council for the accused is not coming to court and he's on media granting interviews and all of that right and that these are grave allegations against against him why why are we seeing a very slow pace as far as this case is concerned >> okay so I think there's a statement that says that justice uh >> the wheels of justice grind slowly and then there's another one that says that justice >> must be done.

[01:15:23]>> Yes.

[01:15:24]>> Firstly to be done.

[01:15:26]>> You know >> the idea of the state >> punishing you is to correct to correct you. The state is not interested in you know your conviction as as it were that you must go to jail at all cost.

[01:15:41]>> You should first of all have been found out to have done something wrong.

[01:15:45]>> You get it? But for me all this is not the issue. The issue is where you what is the level of investigation going into this particular things before the people are put before court.

[01:16:01]>> Okay. Must we go and then midway >> then we withdraw the charges and then say that listen court will come back. So keep the space open for us. We'll be back.

[01:16:11]>> For me it doesn't the optics you know doesn't tell.

[01:16:15]>> Yeah. doesn't tell a ve you know a very organized coordinated you know approach.

[01:16:21]>> Now people I have heard people talk about this multiple investigations going on over all over the place. Can we have a particular institution doing the investigation and then out of that a prosecution is mounted.

[01:16:33]>> So OSP >> you have OSP.

[01:16:36]>> So the sledge matter for instance you have OSP investigating a certain aspect of it which involves the husband and then another Yoko also investigating.

[01:16:46]Yes. Another bit involving the wife.

[01:16:48]>> I think there's FIC as well or >> then yeah then the FIC also somewhere doing something BNI will do something else. Uh uh which one? uh the police is also doing something else and so on.

[01:17:00]Basyama. So we need a coordinated investigation.

[01:17:04]>> If it's a particular institution that is dealing with a particular issue, say that listen, heyo, this is your this is what you can investigate. OSP, this is what you can invest.

[01:17:14]>> So should we give authorization to the OSP so we can put together that matter and just get him to deal with corruption and corruption related activities.

[01:17:21]>> I don't know what we we want to do but I mean uh the experts out there know you know I think they should know what they want to do. And then also the charges.

[01:17:30]Sometimes you have charges about 40 something of them >> and you have to pro prove every one of them >> makes the case long >> long. Sometimes you can go with just five >> once you believe that that is you can >> so that is what the attorney general has done in this case right. So >> how many charges now? I think 20 reduced from an earlier 30 plus or so 40 plus >> there are instances where people even I recall dam or the previous administration where they had money laundering in most of the cases and even matter even when they go to court you don't even hear I'll take 30 seconds each from you right and um that that will be for conversation the president is in Switzerland Ebola is back health financing concerns have come to the four again um should we start looking more inward world right because we in Switzerland and we are talking big in terms of health financing but in our backyard Congo about 100 deaths right Hunter virus is ling around so I don't know what you guys would want to know >> is Hunter the same as Ebola >> no they are two different viruses so maybe 30 seconds each then we wrap up the show unfortunately I'll start with you Larry >> oh I think that uh I listened to the president yesterday and I think he spoke eloquently he gave a good picture of our situation >> where we are and and what he's doing and then he's doing with the rest of uh Africa talked about the Acra you know yeah resetting and so on that was the first time I have heard him actually explain what really the resetting is about >> and the fact that the also the Mahama care program and so on I think he he acquitted himself very very very very well and uh I mean it's something that media houses you know with wider outreach like yours would want to get people to appreciate the difference between the Mahama care and then the NHIA thing that is happening what he's doing with his colleagues you know as far as the continent is concerned this the approach to dealing with non-commicable diseases and so on all that I think >> yeah it's it's important we need to buy into that >> thank you very much I think that we've also not done so well for ourselves even on this platform >> that we spent close to 80% of our time discussing abro and other matters that really >> important but we also need to be able to portion the time so that other equally important issues can be discussed I mean I don't what does it benefit the Ghanaian person out there when we discuss a compared to discussing issues of health that affect you and I mean the president showed great leadership in Geneva yesterday when he presented more or less the thinking of the African in general and a Ghanaian saying that listen we have suffered strongly from the withdrawal of aid by the US aid and other allied institutions >> donor support program >> exactly to our health and to think about it that we Africans who need about 25% of vaccines produced in the world we are producing less than 5% across >> Africa and he's thinking that we should be able to mobilize the resources of other African countries and not necessarily looking for foreign support but put our resources together and establish good health system that would benefit us. I mean we Africans suffer one of the greatest health issues. I mean malaria, Ebola, all the things that you can think about and it's about time and President John Mahama has shown great leadership by leading the charge by calling on his colleagues to come on board so that we can do this. Let's encourage this. Let's bring this conversation into the phone instead of discussing a markings. It will bring nothing to us. Come on.

[01:21:16]>> Pick one. Must Africa always go capping hand begging.

[01:21:21]>> No. That's why you asked the question whether what should we do as a people to look inward in solving our problem.

[01:21:31]We can go and speak all the fine English but at the end of it all you a beggar.

[01:21:37]That's all. Speak all the fine English.

[01:21:39]All that you are seeking to advance to the people listening to you is that I'm a beggar with a cup in hand begging for you to come and help me to solve my health problems.

[01:21:47]>> How do I please?

[01:21:51]>> Let us put pragmatic policies in place.

[01:21:53]Look, walk out of drive out of this place.

[01:21:57]Try to drive around a car and see the filth.

[01:22:01]My brother spoke about malaria and other diseases that we can even by our own attitude prevent. said was something we're not looking at this was it >> okay so I think that it's not a fine English you speak on international platforms >> but what we do here is seeing you see Russia Ukraine what happened so we have to go back to payment support thank you very I I I said look in Africa is a proverb which proverb says Whoever sold the seat to thank you very much today. Thank you. That's all time allow us for for today's edition of the show. My name is Jud Satana to Martin. My guest Kamal Lanti and Larry will be helping us bring insights to the big stories for the day.

[01:22:57]Breakfast Daily continues with Philip and Chris Carter. Don't go away.