Jay Dyer vs 2 Arrogant Protestants Debate Orthodoxy vs Protestantism, Icons & Church Fathers

Añadido: 2026-06-04

[00:00:00]Why are we You said we're heretical dogs. Why is that?

[00:00:03]>> You hold to the eastern heterodox positions.

[00:00:06]>> Uh I mean I don't believe that you actually know what the Eastern Heterodox positions are. So feel free to outline that.

[00:00:14]>> They're the wicked teachings of Satan.

[00:00:16]Of course.

[00:00:17]>> Okay. This sounds like Are you trolling?

[00:00:19]>> No. No. No.

[00:00:20]>> Are you going to actually make an argument or are you just going to say that it's the wicked teaching? What are you even talking about?

[00:00:27]>> What was that?

[00:00:28]That's not an argument. Do you know how to present an argument? Calling a position the wicked teaching of Satan is not an argument. Uh >> I thought you were asking what my thoughts on the East or >> Yeah. Well, you're here to present an argument, are you not?

[00:00:42]>> Yeah, of course.

[00:00:43]>> What's the argument?

[00:00:45]>> Bant has it ready.

[00:00:47]>> Oh, you can't do it. Your buddy has to do it. Okay.

[00:00:49]>> All right. Yo, sorry. I had to deal with something. Okay. So, uh >> you had to deal with what? Googling really fast.

[00:00:57]>> No, no, no. Being based.

[00:01:00]>> I don't think you're based. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[00:01:03]>> Oh, it's very sad. Okay. Well, I see that the Orthodox church has got underwent doctrinal developments over the years, specifically when it comes to icons and the dormission of Mary.

[00:01:13]>> No.

[00:01:13]>> Um, in the Yeah. In the early in the early church, we find uh >> No, that's true. We don't find anything mentioning the dormission of Mary. And the only mention of it comes from an apocryphal gospel as well as the icons.

[00:01:24]Many of the early church fathers uh could be seen as iconoclasts as well.

[00:01:28]>> No, they weren't. There's one pseudopagraphical work by Epipanius.

[00:01:31]That's it. And by the way, all the principles behind iconography are present in the first, second, and third century. Have you are you aware of the Duro Europo Synagogue?

[00:01:39]>> Are you aware of the >> Are you aware of the Dur Duro Europo Synagogue?

[00:01:44]>> Are you aware of the >> Okay, you're not going to answer my question with another question. Are you aware of it or not?

[00:01:48]>> I'm not aware of it. I'm not aware. I'm not aware of it.

[00:01:49]>> Right. So that is the first 2 century excavation that shows that the early synagogue worship included iconography.

[00:01:56]So the idea that Judaism is iconoclastic is actually false. Judaism itself includes the principles of iconography.

[00:02:05]>> Okay. But you see you know what you have heard of the country of Spain, right?

[00:02:10]And in Spain there's a certain region.

[00:02:11]Now in >> No, I've never heard of the country of Spain. What is Spain?

[00:02:15]>> Well, you see Spain is this country in the Mediterranean. Now see in the second century they had a council a council of Alvier and canon 36 of council declared that any pictures are to be forbidden in the church. Yeah, but uh I I I doubt that. But even if that is the case, we don't follow every local we don't follow every local we don't follow every local cannon. Nor do you nor does anybody follow every single local cinnade. By the way, Toledo is the first uh church cannon to sen in Spain to introduce the filioquay. So, uh I'm not sure how that's relevant or what that actually proves.

[00:02:47]I mean if if we if we thought >> the consensus of the church fathers among >> a local a local council in Spain is not the consensus of the church fathers and by the way if you read the rest of the church fathers of the first second and third century you'll see that they taught that there's lurggical worship that there's relics and that there's the real presence in the eucharist all of those early church fathers taught that that's the principle >> you have people like Clement Alexandria also contesting said view of the Eucharist >> again the consensus of the serial is a heretic he's not a saint he's not one of our church fathers.

[00:03:19]>> He's not one of our church fathers. So you you have no idea what you're talking about. Clement is not in the list of canonical church fathers for the Orthodox Church. We consider him a heretic because he taught anti- uh trinitarian doctrines.

[00:03:32]>> No, I think you're talking out of your ass, mate.

[00:03:36]>> No, it's Clement taught that the >> you're you're a blasphous dog. You are >> Yeah. So you lost. You're done. You're you lost. You're done. Look at this dog.

[00:03:44]This total idiot. This guy has no idea what he's talking about.

[00:03:47]>> So you just reserve all you had. That's all that's all you had. You got refuted.

[00:03:51]You don't even know what Clement taught.

[00:03:52]Clement taught an anti-trinitarian doctrine and that's why he's not accepted in the Orthodox church. So really, it doesn't matter what Clement says. Doesn't matter what origin says.

[00:04:00]It doesn't matter what a heretical local council says, >> bro. You have a son and rat in your profile picture. What the hell is wrong with you?

[00:04:07]>> This is not a serious person. This does this person has no idea what he's talking about.

[00:04:12]If you want to actually present an argument or say you're a heretical dog and I'm based, that's not an argument.

[00:04:17]If you want to actually muting someone, it's not an argument either.

[00:04:19]>> No, it is when he starts resulting to the you're a heretical dog. That's because he doesn't have an answer. He doesn't know what Clement taught. Uh I just finished a PhD dissertation on Clement. It's right here. Basil of Cesaria. There's a whole chapter on what Clement of Alexandria taught and why he's not accepted in the Orthodox Church as a church father. Vladimir Loski has a whole book on it. my the uh image and likeness. So that's two scholars from our church from the modern day who have shown and explain why Clement is not a saint in our church. So do you want to cite any other heretics that we don't accept like tool? Is that going to be another argument for you?

[00:04:55]>> I'm you now ban too.

[00:04:58]>> Uh I have people like Ethereia.

[00:05:01]>> So again you keep citing heretics who are not saints. So why are you citing why are you citing semi-arans?

[00:05:06]>> Do you accept do you accept eponus as a saint? So uh there's dispute over whether that one text of Epipanius on icons is pseudopagraphical. Did you even know that?

[00:05:16]>> Yes, I know.

[00:05:16]>> Okay. So and it doesn't matter if one saint is wrong about something. Do you accept everything that Basil taught? Do you accept everything that Athanasius taught? Citing one. So citing one church father literally proves nothing. And nobody in any church follows one church father on every single thing. So the principed multiple. I'm not citing one monkey.

[00:05:35]>> You're citing Dude, don't call me a monkey. Just get him out of here. He can't He can't debate. Just boot this guy.

[00:05:42]>> All he has his name. All you have is name. You can't make No, dude. You're just calling people monkeys. All that does is show the idiocy of Protestantism. This is all you guys have is nothing. You guys have nothing.

[00:05:54]>> K. Do you want to try to present an argument or you just want to call us monkey?

[00:05:58]>> Here, I'm going to >> These are 18year-olds who don't know anything about they just Googled some article talking from some Calvinist website about why icons are wrong. I mean, I'd be glad to go into an actual biblical argument for iconography, which is all through scripture, by the way.

[00:06:13]>> Here, Corin, I'm going to unmute you.

[00:06:15]And if you don't have an argument, that's okay. But >> yeah, as soon as you call people names, dogs, and monkeys, you're out of here.

[00:06:22]>> You're unmuted.

[00:06:24]Thank you.

[00:06:26]>> Well, we would like to at least say that we wish you were pen of your heresy.

[00:06:33]>> All right, just get him out of here. He doesn't have an argument. Yeah. So you guys have nothing. You're actually you're actually the heretics because you don't have a Bible apart from the Orthodox church, right? It's the church fathers that gave you the Bible. You don't even know how to interpret the text that you're misinterpreting. And your spotty quote mining of heterodox church fathers proves absolutely nothing. Literally, you didn't you didn't cite a single church father that's accepted except Epanius. And Epipanius's treatise on questioning icons is doubted in terms of it its authenticity famously. So again, no arguments whatsoever. He didn't even know what the dur Europo synagogue was.

[00:07:11]A famous classic proof text that Judaism is not iconoclastic. And this is what Calvinists and Protestants refer to as one of their key texts is that oh Judaism, you see the original ten commandments was iconoclastic. Uh no, on the contrary, we've shown that in many videos, many debates, many disputes. It was not iconoclastic. It was in fact icono duel. You have uh for example at the dedication of the temple, Solomon praying, the glory cloud coming down and everyone prostrating before the ark and before the temple literally prostrating, venerating. Right? We have Joseph venerating even Pharaoh. He bows before Pharaoh Pharaoh because Pharaoh was the ordained authority even in God's providence even as an evil leader. So if evil leaders can still be given reverential deference, so can good things from God, right? The saints, the saints are the very life and body of Christ on earth. That's why there's relics. That's why cloths from Paul's body go out and heal people in the book of Acts. That's why the bones of Elisha heal people in the books of the kings is because relics is a biblical principle and the same principle behind the real presence is the same principle behind relics is the same principle behind icons. So you are a notorian iconoclastic platonic heretic and it's you that is out of accord with the entire tradition of the church despite your three or four sources from heterodox people in the early