Babylon 5 For the Second Time | Falling Toward Apotheosis | Season 4 Episode 04

Added: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]You can only watch it for the first time once. It It'll be interesting to [music] see what we catch and what we don't.

[00:00:04]>> This is our only first time.

[00:00:05]>> We know that it's a serialized show.

[00:00:07]Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect?

[00:00:09]>> Okay, Tolken, chill out. [music] >> Some little breadcrumbs.

[00:00:12]>> Jump right a chuckle nugget.

[00:00:14]>> I swear Bab 5 is becoming Babylon 5.

[00:00:16]>> We have the most incredible community out there.

[00:00:19]>> Feels like we're going to continue to go down this rabbit.

[00:00:22]>> I was right.

[00:00:22]>> Sharp of beast together.

[00:00:24]>> I [music] was right.

[00:00:24]>> I'm the king, baby.

[00:00:26]>> What? Are you kidding me? Here I go back to Doom as I often.

[00:00:30]>> We're officially into it. 100% so good. It was completely accurate.

[00:00:35]>> That was great. I love that >> definitively. I can keep watching the show.

[00:00:39]>> I love it so much.

[00:00:44]>> The year is 2026. [music] The name of the podcast, Babylon 5 for the second time.

[00:00:52]>> Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. My name is Jeff Aken. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. But we're also for the first, second time, whatever watching the show for the messages that are contained within. What are the things that we pluck out of it?

[00:01:26]Maybe. What are some things that JMS himself intended? Not just what we speculate, but what the man himself is saying. Uh, we're looking for things that hold up a merit to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, this is Jeff and mine's second time through the series. We have watched all the way first through the through once spoiler-free. We had no idea what was coming next. Had an entire run. This is not that. That means that anything from any point in the timeline in the franchise, in universe, out of universe, doesn't matter. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So, this is your one and only spoiler warning. If you have not watched this incredible show for the first time for yourself, stop this show right now. Go join our first watch. Just scroll up in the feed.

[00:02:11]It'll be up that way somewhere. And you can do that spoiler-free. And then once you're through the show first, you come back and do this one. Cuz trust me, it's it's a it's a different watch the second time around. It's like the first time, but it's still a different watch. So, that being said, you have been warned.

[00:02:28]>> My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril.

[00:02:32]>> Brent, this week we're watching an episode called Falling Toward Apotheiois.

[00:02:37]>> When we watch this the first time, we would predict what the next episode was going to be based on the title alone.

[00:02:42]What did you predict Falling Toward Apotheiois was going to be about?

[00:02:46]>> Well, apotheiois reminded me of the word uh apostasy. Apostasy means to leave the faith. And so I said this would be the one about the Vorlons leaving the faith or rather the younger races leaving the faith of the Vorlon as we begin to realize that they are not the force for good that we've been led to believe that they are. I don't remember if that actually happens in this particular episode or not, Jeeoff, but I then went on to say this.

[00:03:11][clears throat] I would like to quote, "Or maybe they weren't ever really a force for good. Maybe we just made them out to be that way. Or maybe they made themselves out to be that way.

[00:03:25]>> Oh.

[00:03:26]>> H. [snorts] How about that prediction?

[00:03:29]>> Hope nobody drove off the road when they heard me say that. [laughter] Mostly from going, >> "Yeah, they said it back in Zaha Doom."

[00:03:36]What are you doing?

[00:03:36]>> Telling you this whole time. [laughter] >> How about you, Jeff?

[00:03:40]>> Uh, I really thought we were going to see two kind of things go on here. we were going to see uh Londo trying to convince Kartagia that the shadows aren't going to be happy being stuck with just the island. They're going to want more and more land. So just more of Londo trying to kind of dismantle Cartagia and what he was doing. And then I remember saying, you know, hey Sheridan is meant to fight legends and what better time than now? And uh I will quote here for myself. He's gonna go one on ONE WITH THE KOSH ONE.

[00:04:14]>> One-on-one with the Kosh one, >> which was actually the Kosh two cuz Kosh one saw it but >> is inside of him.

[00:04:22]>> I was >> or at least a piece.

[00:04:23]>> I was being the rock. I'm such a great rock. So >> you Yeah.

[00:04:30]>> Yeah. I actually have a really great picture. You know the picture of him with the the fanny pack, >> the necklace. He's all I did I did like I have to find it. I did a side by side, had a fanny pack and everything. I mean, really, you can't tell the difference between the two of us.

[00:04:42]>> I have seen so many people do that particular look like for Halloween or something like that. It's it's classic every time you do it. It's so good. It's amazing.

[00:04:50]>> Perfect.

[00:04:51]>> Well, Jeff, uh, that's what we predicted. Predictions are always fun.

[00:04:57]Um, regardless if we get them right or not, but you and I did watch this one time before.

[00:05:03]>> Mhm. Are you interested in what we actually thought once we had watched the episode?

[00:05:06]>> I really am.

[00:05:08]>> I am too because I'll be honest, I'm sitting here right now in this moment. I still don't know what this particular episode was about. They all jumbled together for me in this in this deal.

[00:05:15]So, let's take a look at what we had said the first time around.

[00:05:20]>> Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time, >> falling towards help me out with this one, Jeff.

[00:05:26]>> You got this. I believe in you. I believe in you.

[00:05:28]>> Apiothus. No, no. Apotheiois. I mean, really, how could you not love an episode that has Cartagia dusting the nose of a beheaded minister while Londo sits holding his nose because they have to [music] does he really feel like he hears voices?

[00:05:46]>> I think he does, guys. I think he >> was this whole thing. He was like, I was talking to Minister Dari here and he had this great idea that we should do this and it's like, oh yeah, [gasps and sighs] yeah, your highness, that's great. Let's talk about Londo's silver tongue. We have to remember you can remember your majesty.

[00:06:05]>> He wasn't even talking to Cartagia. He was talking directly to his ego. The plan is so brilliant. It puts Cartagia and Londo on Narn.

[00:06:15]>> Cartage Ree, man.

[00:06:17]>> He's like, if I try and kill Cartagia here, me and Jakar will be dead in 2.2 seconds. This is his Kobayashi Maru and he's kirking it by going in and changing the parameters of the game.

[00:06:29]>> Uh Jakar's getting his eye plucked out.

[00:06:30]>> I just imagine that guy going home. His wife's like, "How was your day?" And he's like, "I really I really don't want to talk about it."

[00:06:37]>> If you had to pull somebody's eye out right now, what would you do?

[00:06:40]>> I pray desperately [laughter] neither you nor I ever know the answer to that question.

[00:06:45]>> Kosh one is now gone, gone, gone >> for reals.

[00:06:49]>> And I'm kind of upset about it. This exit [music] didn't seem worthy of the of the gravity of Kosh being there to me. I'm really over Gabaldi right now.

[00:06:58]Yeah. What I don't know about [music] Gab Baldi right now. What is talking? Is this actually Gabaldi or is this whatever Scyore plopped into his head?

[00:07:06]Zach gets it. Even after he stormed out of the war council, which I also get, Zach went after him and behind behind Gabaldi's back stood up for him. And I thought that was awesome.

[00:07:17]>> So Sheridan, people are looking at him like he's a freaking god. and he's like, "I don't like it. I don't want to [music] be that." And Laurian's like, "You've got to be that." I know of another station captain who didn't like being a religious icon. When he leaves [music] at the end, I don't think he's dying. He said he I gave him 20 years and then he [music] will be no more.

[00:07:38]From the old old testament, Enoch, the way it's phrased is is he [music] walked faithfully with God and then he was no more. And the implication being that he never died. He was just taken. We're closer to Sheridan becoming a god and having to leave his [music] brand new wife and probably his new baby. I don't think we're going to see baby David in this show.

[00:08:00]>> And you're right.

[00:08:01]>> We're not going to see baby David in this show.

[00:08:03]>> Or grown David.

[00:08:05]>> Or grown David. We're not going to see David. We're going to hear his name.

[00:08:07]>> Yep.

[00:08:08]>> He's going to be talked about. Uh Sheridan must be a god.

[00:08:12]>> Yeah.

[00:08:12]>> I don't remember that conversation.

[00:08:14]>> No.

[00:08:15]>> Yeah. I remember the whole thing Laurian being like this. You have to embrace this. This has to be your thing. Yeah. I don't I don't I'm interested to see that. Also, uh here's what I'm excited then just after come coming off of that is we get we get to see the 20-year thing, >> the birth of it, right?

[00:08:33]>> Yeah. Um and I I've still got a few uh I I got a few questions about where it gets set up and how it comes and and what's the what with how it's supposed to work. So, I'm interested to see this time around knowing what happens. I can I can be looking for it. So, >> I liked our discussion on the uh and then he is no more because even when we get to sleeping in light, it's just he stopped that.

[00:09:02]>> That's it. Just Yeah.

[00:09:04]>> So, >> yeah.

[00:09:05]>> Planting the seed for you >> there. There I mean you guys correct me if I'm wrong. There was no body. He just went >> just went.

[00:09:13]>> Yeah, I think that is correct. So, what do you say we dive into this one?

[00:09:17]>> Yes, I would like that very much.

[00:09:19]>> All right. Very good. Very good. We're about to dive into this episode literally right here. We're going to pull it up and we're going to watch it together with you. We'll talk about our responses to things, reactions to things, any messages that come up during the episode itself. We cut that up and edit it into a reaction style video for YouTube. If you want the full and the unedited version of it, you can see that a week ahead of the normal releases at our Patreon page, which is patreon.com/ >> bad nerds.

[00:09:49]>> And if you're listening to the audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction and then we're going to meet you on the other side where we will share our thoughts and talk about messages that we uncover. So Jeff, let's go watch an episode.

[00:10:01]>> Let's fall towards it.

[00:10:04]>> Oh. Oh. We're preempting your normal Babcom service to bring you another update. Right now, our greatest enemy is fear.

[00:10:13]>> The only thing to fear is fear to get through.

[00:10:18]>> You can't save them all and try. You'll fail.

[00:10:21]>> To your point, >> uh, from last week when you're like, I wanted more of Sheridan and Laurian.

[00:10:27]>> Mhm.

[00:10:27]>> This shows you there was a lot more >> Yeah.

[00:10:30]>> of them.

[00:10:31]>> Give me the rest of that story. I want to know what that was like. I don't know that that means that Sheridan's supposed to be a god and that people are supposed to treat him as such.

[00:10:40]>> Yeah. I don't think it means that.

[00:10:41]>> You know what I mean?

[00:10:42]>> People need something to believe in that will unify him. I think it's that's >> symbol.

[00:10:47]>> Mhm.

[00:10:47]>> Yeah.

[00:10:48]>> And then I think for Sheridan it's kind of that fight. There's the leader they need and the leader I am and there's a gap between those and I'm not comfortable with that gap. There is a, you know, there is a kind of a common story we hear out of stuff like this of just, you know, winning the war is much easier than managing what comes after the war.

[00:11:08]>> Yeah.

[00:11:08]>> You know what I mean? Like winning freedom for your country is a whole lot easier than leading your country in freedom. That's a whole different animal. And maybe those shouldn't necessarily always be the same people.

[00:11:25]And here's the thing, like it's really easy.

[00:11:27]>> Yeah. Come in.

[00:11:28]>> It's really easy to like get on Gabaldi for >> being paranoid or whatever here, >> you know, and for us knowing what happened to put it on his psychore programming, but we talked about it a little bit in the last episode, but who is this dude walking around with you with a robe and a big old [clears throat] beard telling you to say stuff? Like Gabaldi is right to question this.

[00:11:47]>> Absolutely. And if they're not really explaining who he is or doing the thing where where people are earning his trust like he comes in, they trust Sheridan.

[00:11:56]He Laurian can begin with some borrowed trust, some borrowed credit from uh from Sheridan, but he has to earn his own with the rest of the people and they're just not interested in doing that. Like Sheridan's not interested in in sharing that out and and Laurian really kind of doesn't seem like he cares much for that either. [clears throat] >> Which kind of a boron shadow thing you >> got to call my she said uh >> good got a message from Ivonav take one more look at you after that you can come back to work.

[00:12:28]>> You know the number of times that people mispronounce her name in this show.

[00:12:31]>> I know >> I don't want to hear anybody giving me any guff about saying her name wrong.

[00:12:35]>> No since we both got back he hasn't said two words to me. It's like he's avoiding me.

[00:12:40]>> Dude, he hasn't said two words to invite anyone.

[00:12:43]>> This isn't about you.

[00:12:44]>> Reacting and you're not looking hard enough.

[00:12:48]>> Oh, >> vorlons are out there. Londo, >> would you like some lotion? Perhaps some aloe vera.

[00:12:52]>> True Majesty, I've hit many of their ships on distant worlds.

[00:13:00]>> I call them my shadow cabinet.

[00:13:03]>> I think you can appreciate the irony.

[00:13:05]They certainly can. earlier this evening and this one had the most noise.

[00:13:10]>> Is that Is that Andreas's face?

[00:13:12]>> It is. So, yeah.

[00:13:13]>> JMSs says, "Yes, that's Andreas's head, which I personally moved over to where it would be beside Peter, who complained in just that Andreas was stealing the scene from him again." So, is it actually Andreas's head or is it a mold of his head that they've made up? Like is that really like Andreas like with his neck in a table and they've made up his face or did they cast a mold and that's that's what this is.

[00:13:38]>> Pretty sure they cast a mold.

[00:13:40]>> Okay.

[00:13:41]>> Be weird.

[00:13:41]>> It's not really him just sitting there trying to be really still.

[00:13:44]>> Right. Okay.

[00:13:45]>> He He's no lineer, >> dude. Lenir is no lineer, >> right?

[00:13:50]>> You remember him, don't you? Always coughing. Most distressing, but we finally cured it.

[00:13:56]>> Yes, you understand exactly.

[00:14:00]Snicks.

[00:14:01]>> So that moment right there in filming this, they took many, many takes of this scene and they did extras because it just wasn't clicking. It was just kind of blah the whole thing.

[00:14:10]>> Okay.

[00:14:11]>> And then JMS runs over to catering and he grabs a bowl and throws like gummy bears and good and plenties and just whatever stuff they have over there, puts it in a bowl and says, "Hey, just offer this to Londo." Like just some point. because he's like sitting with all these rotten dead heads and then just being like, "Hey, you want to eat some candy?" [snorts] would push it to the next level. And then as they were doing it, they're like, "Well, they're not going to have they're not going to call it snacks. Like, what should we call it?" Thus, Snicks.

[00:14:39]>> Snicks.

[00:14:40]>> All right.

[00:14:41]>> I will take it all with me in spirit.

[00:14:43]Don't send the [ __ ] >> I mean, with his perspective, >> all of this makes sense. Like, I can see the string of logic. It's rooted in psychosis, but I can see >> this. This actually to me hearkens back to many ancient civilizations, the Egyptians and others who >> equate their leaders with actual gods, some that are still even around today.

[00:15:04]>> There's one more thing I want to check though.

[00:15:06]>> Oh no, come on, man. I really hate that.

[00:15:08][laughter] It's not that.

[00:15:09]>> Do you know what a sigmoid is?

[00:15:12]>> You're ready to go back to work?

[00:15:17]Uhoh.

[00:15:19]Yeah, >> I got to say that one scene was a better depiction of PTSD than the entire episode of the Long Dark.

[00:15:26]>> You mean the Avalon?

[00:15:27]>> Both dealt with PTSD. I was saying long dark cuz at least Avalon had a little more to it.

[00:15:32]>> I don't think I I don't think I was thinking long dark for PTSD. But yeah, >> that's Amos this whole thing. Especially the idea of masking or Gabriel. It's like I got this stuff. It's weird and it's messing me up, but I got to keep showing up. I got to stay good. The only thing that might be as terrible as losing you would be if you came back and could not forgive me and I lost you again.

[00:15:53]>> You did what you thought was right.

[00:15:55]>> That's no excuse. I'm sorry, John.

[00:15:57]>> So, of this JMS says, yeah, Delane's done more than enough of this, oh, John stuff for my tastes. That's going to start to change.

[00:16:07]>> How does it change?

[00:16:09]>> So, that's the thing. That's the thing.

[00:16:11]It doesn't. But I think his intent is for it to change. And when we start getting into atonement, when we start getting into the Mari Civil War stuff, she steps into more of a the >> just a couple episodes.

[00:16:22]>> Yeah.

[00:16:23]>> So, we get more of the Den, the strong Den instead of the Ojen. But >> that O John Delen kind of becomes the status quo.

[00:16:31]>> Well, I mean, so, so we definitely have atonement where she gets her own episode there. What was the other one you just mentioned?

[00:16:36]>> Uh, there there's lines of communication. Uh, moments in transition come to mind.

[00:16:40]>> Oh, the the civil war. the the Mimbari civil war.

[00:16:43]>> She steps into that >> meeting the D emissary and all that kind of stuff >> and then she rallies the troops to create the uh the ISA, right?

[00:16:51]>> Yeah. It's really her, Londo, and Jakar doing their thing, but she leads that.

[00:16:55]>> Yeah, she leads that. So, yeah, she I mean she does. I think the thing is is so much of it though happens almost behind closed doors.

[00:17:04]>> Mhm.

[00:17:04]>> Okay. So, like atonement, the entirety of atonement is behind closed doors and doesn't affect everybody else going out there. And you know what it is? You know what I'm realizing? Cuz the Delin I want is the one who comes in riding in the captain's chair going you know that man is in front of me. You are you're in front of me and he's behind me and if you want to live be somewhere else. Like that when you say that's going to change that's the den I'm thinking of. Yeah.

[00:17:25]>> Not atonement den which I love atone like it's a phenomenal episode don't get me wrong but it's a diff it's still a different kind of kind of dyn right >> it is. I think it is. I I'm trying to think if Delin ever truly there there is the moment where she rallies the troops for the ISA >> and like she I mean she grows a backbone and just sticks it right >> when she reforms the great council.

[00:17:49]That's a good one.

[00:17:49]>> Yep. I think the whole thing with her and the dro was great.

[00:17:52]>> Yeah. Like she has >> but then you know what I'm also left with Sleeping in Light. Sleeping in Light was I mean no guff to her but it was one big O John as far as Delin's concerned.

[00:18:05]>> Yeah. I feel like that might be the strongest Delen we ever see.

[00:18:08]>> No.

[00:18:09]>> No.

[00:18:09]>> How? How?

[00:18:10]>> She watches him go.

[00:18:12]>> Yeah. Oh, John.

[00:18:14]>> Yeah, you're right. Actually, [laughter] >> and it's emotional and it's beautiful and it's heart tugging and it's Oh, John.

[00:18:21]>> And John's kind of a jerk to her >> and she No.

[00:18:24]>> Yeah.

[00:18:25]>> Get off your horse. Um, >> he [laughter] is. No, he well he is kind of like it's my death party and I'll die if I want to is kind of how John's rolling right then. You know, he's like, "Look, this is this this is about me right now." So, >> but yeah, Sarah over in the council chambers chat, I think puts it well. I think we get some really solid and good Den in the remainder of season 4. It's season five Delen where this really comes back.

[00:18:51]>> She just becomes the side piece, right?

[00:18:53]And that and and I say that with much derision because I hate that for her and I don't want to see that happen to the Lind. Maybe maybe Jeff here on our second watch we're going to see a much stronger den down the stretch here than what we remember the first time. I'm I'm counting on you Joe. Counting on you.

[00:19:07]>> What about epsilon 3? What about it? We have a whole planet underneath it that's never been touched by the shadows. So in theory the Vorlon should leave it alone.

[00:19:16]>> Once again we're mentioning epsilon 3.

[00:19:19]We're keeping it at the forefront of our thoughts. We're saying that it's a thing >> and it's gonna turn out to be a big and don't give me that it's the antenna that powers the whatever. That is minuscule to what they could be using epsilon 3 for. Don't give me well it's what sent Babylon 4 back in time. That was one thing. They're talking about this post war without end >> in real time right now.

[00:19:43]>> Yeah. If it was done then they shouldn't be talking about it right now.

[00:19:47]>> I can't tell you.

[00:19:49]>> So you say you can't trust me?

[00:19:51]No, that is not stop jumping. No, >> you don't know how telepathic the Borlons are. I want the Borlon gone.

[00:20:00]>> Fine, I'll just uh go up to him and ask him to leave. That'll work.

[00:20:04]>> Michael, >> it's all right. That's exactly what I want you to do. Look, he has got to know by now that we are planning to move against him. So, let's give him what he expects.

[00:20:14]>> Then we can do what we have to do, >> which is the part you can't tell me about. Do >> you want me to take a full tactical team?

[00:20:24]>> No, just a few people you can trust.

[00:20:27]>> That's not enough. He'll wipe the floor with us.

[00:20:30]>> I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

[00:20:31]>> Yeah.

[00:20:32]>> Yep.

[00:20:34]>> Even Dr. Franklin there's like >> that's not going to go over well, man.

[00:20:38]>> I totally get what Gabaldi's feeling here.

[00:20:41]>> Yeah.

[00:20:41]>> Is it my imagination or is Mr. Gabaldi crankier than usual?

[00:20:45]>> Yeah. Well, he's been through a lot lately. He just needs a little time to settle in. Come on, Zack.

[00:20:50]>> Zach's a good friend, man.

[00:20:51]>> He really is.

[00:20:53]>> Especially when other people are not good friends in return. You talk about that that how do we be better human beings?

[00:20:59]>> I don't know if I can do >> to one another as a message.

[00:21:01]>> Zach >> in in a in a Babylon 5 full of Michael Gabaldies.

[00:21:06]>> Be a Zach. That's a t-shirt for you.

[00:21:08]Idea Fab.

[00:21:09]>> Another one. Yeah, >> dude. His hair is becoming more and more quafted every episode.

[00:21:13]>> A little more hardcore, >> right? I get why things go down the way they go down with a fight with Kosh, but it would be so it would be such great justice >> if Lita got to deliver the killing blow.

[00:21:26]>> Yes, >> that would have been awesome.

[00:21:27]>> Yes, agreed.

[00:21:32]>> The music, the slow turn, you are facing Lucifer himself, >> dude. That's not even like phasing at all.

[00:21:50]The [laughter] random game standing right there.

[00:21:52]>> Incoming message for you, Captain. It's Ambassador Mari >> Londo. He's probably calling collective.

[00:22:00][laughter] >> All right, >> dude. That doesn't even hold up today, man.

[00:22:07]>> It doesn't so great.

[00:22:08]>> Our kids watch the show, they would have no idea what that means.

[00:22:10]>> I need a fever. You see kids, back in the day, we actually used to have to pay for phone calls if they were over a certain distance. But what you could do is you could call collect where the person who was receiving the phone call would have to pay as opposed to you, the person who's making the phone call. And that's what that means.

[00:22:27]>> And because of that, we got Carrot Top telling us to dial 1800 c Lat.

[00:22:33]>> And just for the record, I did not just mansplain that. I just >> kidsplained it.

[00:22:38]>> Boomer explained it. Kids explained it.

[00:22:39]There you go. attacking every colony, every planet involved with the shadows.

[00:22:44]>> It's no rumor.

[00:22:46]>> Then could you tell me how far they are from Centauri tribe?

[00:22:50]>> The way they've been going now.

[00:22:51]>> So this is this is clearly people on two separate sides of the political table.

[00:22:57]You know, they're not sitting on the same side. They are across the table from each other, right? They are opposing political people but at the same time they are working together but they are maintaining their their sides.

[00:23:09]They're not coming buddy buddy. They're not that but there is certainly a a mutual respect. There is there is >> uh an understanding that they have with each other.

[00:23:20]>> And I think this actually carries over into that future. You know they have to be on each side that they're on. But, you know, I I don't it just I find this interesting in light of that like how they're talking and communicating. You know, look, he's giving him the information.

[00:23:35]>> Did they not see what happened when the shadows did this to Kosh one >> right >> now? They're going to come in and basically do the same thing to Kosh 2.

[00:23:45]>> The thing blowing up.

[00:23:46]>> Yeah.

[00:23:47]>> J, >> tell me it wasn't supposed to happen.

[00:23:49]>> Uh, not like that. It wasn't.

[00:23:51]>> Oh, >> that was that was very poor CGI that we just watched.

[00:23:54]>> Okay. First off, when Jav talks about this, he calls Kosh 2. I think we got that last week, but I I like that he took a lead from us.

[00:24:02]>> Does he Does he um Does he annotate it and say good height?

[00:24:06]>> Uh not in this one. He didn't, but Okay.

[00:24:08]>> Still pretty funny.

[00:24:09]>> But uh so they have two kosh head pieces that they've had constructed as as parts. They had rigged up like a little explosive inside of it so the scene it would actually blow up.

[00:24:20]>> Okay.

[00:24:20]>> They had the first one set up. They were blocking the scene and without anybody hitting anything, the headpiece just blew up and they're like, "Oh no, they didn't have cameras rolling or anything." So they grabbed the next one and prep it up with charges again, set it up, block the scene, it blows. And so they have no more head pieces. And so they were like, "Basically, we can just have him there, show something else, and then he doesn't have his head or we can use some CG." And they used the CG.

[00:24:46]>> And they should have done it the other way.

[00:24:48]>> Probably should have. Yeah. But you know, I mean, >> wow. They're like literally all of our options are gone. Huh?

[00:24:56]>> Care Bear stare.

[00:25:01]You know what's wild is when you think about like there's a fleet of Vorlon trapesing through the galaxy and leaving this destruction in its wake. This was one Vorlon dying. One. Yeah.

[00:25:12]>> And it was this catastrophic. Like >> his life force must be replenished.

[00:25:20]Why did he die?

[00:25:21]>> Hold on. Look. Can you play it a little tiny bit further so we don't have to look at that hand?

[00:25:27]>> That's a little weird.

[00:25:29]They're showing him for very long fingers.

[00:25:32]>> That was a long fingers, man.

[00:25:34]>> Why did he die?

[00:25:35]>> Why did he die?

[00:25:36]>> Well, I don't know that he died. I think he's on the precipice of death.

[00:25:39]>> Has he not actually been brought back to life?

[00:25:42]>> What we've been seeing of Sheridan isn't Sheridan at all. It's Laurian and Kosh maybe. And now now he's going to remerge >> left and now we're left with the body and whatever is left of Sheridan >> and Lorian has to re replenish that >> mostly dead at this point >> maybe. And since he just care bear stared them out of him he's just left with a little bit of Sheridan.

[00:26:03]>> Yeah. But I mean we also know Okay. So we keep saying and we've said that we know Sheridan died at Zahadum.

[00:26:11]>> You keep saying that. I >> I don't think he did. I don't know that he did because he got caught. We know he jumped and then he got caught.

[00:26:19]>> That's why I keep saying he was between the tick and the talk. He wasn't necessarily in one or the other or not in them. He was between them limbo. Like he was he's been in a state of limbo.

[00:26:29]And so what we've had is we've had this Laurian and and whatever bit of cautious left in him to almost Anna Sheridanesque, not Mortyn may maybe less than maybe in between those two things.

[00:26:43]>> Yeah. Like there's no programming for Sheridan. The Sheridan we see is still truly Sheridan.

[00:26:49]>> So when Laurian turned around and said now, was he talking to Sheridan and said turn around and release it or was he talking to caution side Sheridan saying get after him? That's a good question >> because Sheridan really wasn't like this hasn't been Sheridan really here >> and there's enough Sheridan that he's basically been observing everything that happens >> and so now here's Laurian going to give him some life essence back but he's not going to do the whole thing. This man has been living literally since time began >> and he doesn't have enough >> and he can't and he can't give this guy whatever the normal lifespan of a human is in this particular year.

[00:27:25]>> Really >> pretty stingy, >> right? One in the chat. Ben says, "We're about to get an explanation of this from Laurian.

[00:27:32]>> I give of myself to replenish him."

[00:27:35]>> Thank you, Arin >> for a little while. And wishing that others could know you as our people know you. If only they could see your greatness as we do. Who will be left to sing your praises?

[00:27:51]Who will know you for who you are?

[00:27:53]>> Pump that ego. What if we conducted his trial and execution on his home world instead of here?

[00:28:02]>> Londo's really good at this court stuff.

[00:28:05]Can you imagine?

[00:28:06]>> He is.

[00:28:06]>> How it would move them?

[00:28:08]>> Well experienced.

[00:28:09]>> Once he found things in my nervous system, some kind of biochemical energy repairing and sustaining me. He's never seen anything like it. I gave him back a portion. That was the Laurian and Kosh.

[00:28:24]>> Only a portion. How long in human terms?

[00:28:29]Perhaps 20 years. It's a long time. It's 20 more years than I would have had. At least I can spend most of them with you.

[00:28:38]>> I do have to say that in the moment I can understand where Dylan is coming from. John's had time to process this and think about it, which is why he can be like, "It's a good run. Dylan's floored. like you're going to die at least 20 years if not more sooner than I thought we were going to have at least 40 years together. The fact that she sticks with this I think really bothers me cuz at some point I feel you get to uh would you rather have the greatest love you've ever experienced in your life for 2 days or never at all. She gets it for 20 years.

[00:29:08]>> Yeah.

[00:29:08]>> And I would hope and this is I mean everyone has their way but I would hope after thinking about it and processing it that's where she would have landed.

[00:29:14]Let's make the most out of these 20 years. Let's enjoy every moment of them.

[00:29:18]>> You know, I I'll tell you, I'm I'm only in my mid-40s at this point. There's a bit about life that I've come to understand, and it's life works in seasons. There's a season to everything, and every season has its end, and that includes life itself, and that's okay.

[00:29:31]So, I often think about people like Wolverine, if I can take a turn on you.

[00:29:35]Yeah. Right. These people with so-called eternal life. And what do we often see in in fiction, in sci-fi? Oh, eternal life is a curse >> because And and and what's the story?

[00:29:45]What's the story? almost 100% of the time. Oh, I fell in love with this one girl or this one guy and then they died and I couldn't handle it. So, I became very bitter and enraged and you know or maybe it happened so many times and I just got tired of losing. I feel like if you have an eternal perspective on things, you understand that for this season of my life, this person is here and for this season of life, this person is here and for this, you know, you you just understand that and that's a part of how life goes. We can do that in our own lives. It is very rare that anyone is ever going to have a close friend from childhood all the way to death, >> right?

[00:30:24]>> You have friends when you're a child.

[00:30:26]Those people move on. You have friends when you go to high school. Those people move on. You have friends when you go to college. Those people move on. You have friends when you go to your first place outside of college. And then when you move and and you these are people that for the most part once that time is done, you tend to lose contact.

[00:30:42]>> Occasionally you wind up keeping up with them here and there, but they're pretty much out of your life. They were your best friends for that season.

[00:30:50]>> Yeah.

[00:30:50]>> And very few people travel with you from season to season to season. I'm not sad or mad because that person's no longer my friend, right?

[00:30:58]>> They are still my friend and I still care greatly for them. They're just not in my life all the time anymore. And I'm grateful for that season. I feel like Wolverine, if you have an eternal a longer lifespan, you get that idea like like uh the trill in in Star Trek to go back to another thing, right? Like this is my time here and then I move on and this is natural. Delin's going to be like look this is my time here. That's where she should have the the idea that she to what >> I'm coming off of what you said just a second ago. And correct me if I didn't misunderstand you. She should get there.

[00:31:28]She should get that because it seems like for 20 years >> she never leaves this moment right here.

[00:31:33]>> Yeah.

[00:31:33]>> She lives here in this moment that she she's dreading the end of the 20 years rather than living it up and being like, "Okay, that's that season. That's done."

[00:31:41]>> Yeah.

[00:31:41]>> Delyn's got another several hundred in her after this.

[00:31:45]>> Which, by the way, she was already going to outlive him many times over. Right.

[00:31:48]Exactly. I mean, assuming that her lifespan is the same now that she's a hybrid.

[00:31:53]>> All true.

[00:31:54]>> You know, and so she has an unknown.

[00:31:55]Maybe she's going to live long. There's a lot of unknown to it. But you I heard somebody say a thing once that seemed really dark and might still come across as dark. But >> every relationship we have, every single one has an expiration date. Some of those, to your point, are the change of the season. Some of them are death.

[00:32:13]>> Yeah.

[00:32:13]>> Every relationship has an expiration date. I'm not forcing my view on a dileent here. This is just me talking.

[00:32:19]>> Yeah.

[00:32:19]>> What a gift knowing when the expiration date of this is.

[00:32:22]>> Yeah, you you can certainly approach it.

[00:32:24]And I like what Ben says over here in our chat. Says she's allowed to feel sad. Yes.

[00:32:28]>> Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:32:30]>> Would be different if she did something like she left him because she doesn't want to be with somebody who's going to die younger or if she doesn't want to have a kid because of it. But no, she doesn't change her actions and makes the most of her 20 years together. And and uh within that, she's allowed to feel however she wants. Yeah.

[00:32:46]>> Yeah.

[00:32:46]>> Yeah. I she is definitely allowed to feel sad. And you you also said it just a second ago. He's had a chance to process this and take this through.

[00:32:53]She's hitting this for the very first time. And I'll go back to something I've been saying. Delin's never been human before. I've got to imagine that there are emotions that she's feeling right now she's never encountered in her life ever. I imagine I could be wrong, but I I would imagine there there's that's going on with her as well, >> you know, and maybe there's other some bodily things that's, you know, messing some things up too. But I I think what we would just really like to see her not get beyond but get to the same place of acceptance that that dude is in.

[00:33:21]>> Yeah.

[00:33:21]>> And it's okay to feel sad when they pass. I'm not saying you can't do that either.

[00:33:25]>> Yeah. Well, >> leave or anything like that. You can.

[00:33:28]Absolutely.

[00:33:28]>> To your earlier point, what we see in Sleeping in Light is her still being like, I can't believe it's only 20 years, >> right? you know, and there and I think this is a quick personal story on that because I think it's like I think right now in this moment she is reacting the way any person would.

[00:33:44]>> True.

[00:33:44]>> Oh my god, what?

[00:33:46]>> And then process and do things. But I remember it was April 1st, 2014. I showed up to work one day and then got news that my boss died overnight. I love she was incredible. Her name was Carolyn. Just an incredible human being and uh it was devastating. There's a I have a whole thing that I actually do about this. But I I struggled. I remember uh it was in it was April, so it was during Lent. And so at my church, we were doing Stations of the Cross, a thing that >> yeah, >> we talk about here. And so I was at stations and I could not stop crying. I was just like I couldn't believe that she was gone. And being raised Catholic and being in a Catholic church, I I I I'm like, if this is my true belief, >> shouldn't I be happy? Like isn't this the goal? you know, live your life, pass on to the next. And I really struggled with with that. And I talked to my priest who's an incredible pas has a great pastoral touch. And he's like, "Well, yeah, you should be happy and you should be sad. You lost someone who's a big deal to you in your life. You can be you can be both, right?" And that was mindblowing to me at that point, like to be both. And I think that's if if I could wish something for Delen, it would be that >> that she's like, I'm so sad that I get just 20 years with you and I am so grateful I get 20 years with you.

[00:35:09]>> And you know, and and if it feels like any dumping on Dyn or or criticizing of Delin we're doing here, I think it's it's less what she's going through in this moment.

[00:35:18]>> It's not that at all. Yeah.

[00:35:19]>> At that, right? It's not that. It's it's how at least you and I perceive her from our first watch.

[00:35:25]>> Mhm.

[00:35:26]>> What you and I remember from our first watch where it really seems like she to JMS's thing from earlier. She's just sort of ojing it for so long and we and we want so much more for Dyn. I think it comes from the place we want more for Dyn because we love her so much. I think is is if we could >> Yeah. And in the council chambers chat, they are rightly bringing up Tolken and because this is a thing that gets explored extensively, >> you know, love between elves and humans.

[00:35:53]You've got, you know, Arwin and Aragorn, Baron and Lucian, all of these things that are unfathomable to our short human minds. But >> I feel that there's an opportunity here for he mirrors Tolken so much. This is an opportunity for the same >> mirror. That'll be interesting to watch for a second time.

[00:36:11]>> Sure. Man, I thought I'd lost it.

[00:36:15]>> Where has that been in the couch for like the last like three or four weeks, >> right? While he was dead and everything to have this >> like he he left that there before he he went away.

[00:36:24]>> I [laughter] got it down in the zoko.

[00:36:26]It's not what I had exactly in mind, but um >> Michael in the chat calls it Laurian Care Plus.

[00:36:33]>> I can get you a real engagement ring.

[00:36:37]Um it's a it's an earth custom.

[00:36:43]You see, you give someone you love.

[00:36:48]>> An engagement ring is kind of an >> She hasn't said yes yet, dude.

[00:36:51]>> For another reason.

[00:36:52]>> I know.

[00:36:53]>> The kind that you exchange when you get [music] married.

[00:36:57]>> He He can barely say it. Like he has such a problem with love like verbalizing it.

[00:37:01]>> That part of it.

[00:37:02]>> Look at her.

[00:37:03]>> We may not survive the next two weeks.

[00:37:06][music] Dan, get yourself somebody [music] who looks at you like Dylan looks at Sheridan.

[00:37:15]>> That is honestly a very awkwardl looking kiss. You know, Paul Paul brings up an interesting point and I just want to get your take on this, Jeff. So JMS has now written two very awkward proposals and Claire and Catherine. Well, do your don't you. And then the one we just watched here with with Dylan and Sheridan. Which one was better? I think this one was better.

[00:37:39]>> This one was more touching for sure.

[00:37:41]>> I think Sinclair's was very practical, [laughter] right?

[00:37:44]>> You know, this one like, dude, I teared up. Like, you can't not feel the love between these two and what Sheridan just did. Especially I think especially because he's so clumsy and sloppy around expressing these feelings. It's so human. It's so male.

[00:37:57]>> Have I ever told you the story of my own engagement asking my wife to marry me?

[00:38:01]That's I [laughter] mean I'm not sure that JMS could have done that one much better.

[00:38:07]I'm really not. Uh I'll tell that story one day. Today is not the time. We'll tell that story one day.

[00:38:12]>> It's a good story. It's a good story.

[00:38:14]Don't Don't let me forget. I'll tell I'll tell this to you guys sometime. I >> I don't like the way he's looking at me.

[00:38:20]>> God, I'm trying to decide what to do about it. Would you care to make a suggestion? Um, you feel like he keeps trying to trap.

[00:38:28]>> No, Londo.

[00:38:30]>> He had a shot. He had a chance right there to point this in a different direction, >> but it was probably wise not to take it, maybe.

[00:38:38]>> So, JMS says, "Would have been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor."

[00:38:49]>> Oh, >> tying it back to the prophecy. To be clear, he doesn't say this is the prophecy. He just points out that this is an eye that cannot see.

[00:38:58]>> That's fair.

[00:38:59]>> I tell you what, you can dig out an eyeball without him screaming.

[00:39:03]Oh god, I can't even like just thinking about it.

[00:39:08][music] You know, if this was uh filmed in contemporary uh Star Trek, >> they would have shown the eye get removed.

[00:39:19]>> That Well, they did in one.

[00:39:20]>> They did.

[00:39:21]>> So gross.

[00:39:23]Oh god. Uh Brent, we just fell towards apotheiois. Um I don't have anything from JMS that we I wasn't able to bring up during uh during the episode itself.

[00:39:33]Anything you want to talk about or any messages you want to touch on?

[00:39:36]>> I think we hit everything during the episode itself. I think so too.

[00:39:39]>> Here's a question I do want to ask though. Okay.

[00:39:41]>> Less about messages and just more story.

[00:39:43]All right. So we we we keep spinning around the circle of Sheridan and his 20 years and did he die? Didn't he die?

[00:39:53]Where are we landing with this?

[00:39:54]>> Dude, this is the thing because Laurianne, I think, gave such a JMS answer.

[00:39:59]>> He did.

[00:39:59]>> He was dying. He was dead.

[00:40:01]>> He dead. [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:40:03]>> What?

[00:40:03]>> Which was it? Yes.

[00:40:05]>> Exactly.

[00:40:06]>> Right.

[00:40:06]>> So, I think this is honestly this is what I think. It doesn't matter.

[00:40:11]>> He faced his trial. Mhm.

[00:40:13]>> You know, he went into the the the cave to the tree on Deobba, faced his thing, and is now coming out changed and redirected.

[00:40:21]>> I um I can accept that. But I will forever now look at this whole piece like there's a piece of me that thinks that that Sheridan might actually still be back on Zahad Doom or at least was right up until this the end of this.

[00:40:37]>> Yeah, >> a little bit. Maybe not. That might be too far. But the Sheridan we saw come back in the last episode and through the first bunch of this episode was not really Sheridan. I think it might have been Sheridan sharing like Sheridan might have [clears throat] been active but Kosh was very alive, Laurian was very alive and there was this thing happening in him and when Laurian and Kosh left whatever was left of Sheridan was not strong enough to survive on his own.

[00:41:06]>> Yeah. So Sheridan's Sheridan's life force was nearly extinguished on Zahad Doom.

[00:41:14]>> Mhm. [clears throat] Yep.

[00:41:15]>> And was not rekindled until what we saw happen in this episode by Lauren >> until he put those hot dog fingers on him.

[00:41:23]>> Right. The everything all everywhere all at once fingers, right? But what we have seen like what we saw of Sheridan back on Zaha Doom in the early episodes that was happening in his mind [clears throat] >> and what we saw of Sheridan in the last episode and the first half of this episode was basically weakened at Bernie Sheridan.

[00:41:46]>> Yeah. Or, you know, I like I like your kind of analogy where like there's a little bit of Sheridan >> Mhm.

[00:41:54]>> a little more Kosh and a little more Laurian that makes who we saw, >> right?

[00:41:58]>> And so like there's always that little bit of Sheridan in him the whole time.

[00:42:01]Not enough to exert control as it were, >> right?

[00:42:05]>> But enough to be like, I'm here and I can >> you almost feel like it's more of a more of a tora symbiosis thing. Like he's there. He's a part of it. He's he's probably very much not just willing, but he's a full participant with caution Laurian inside this body. And they're hatching this plan and they're hatching all this other stuff and and big laurens over here doing something. I'm not really sure. You know, >> ancient oneing.

[00:42:32]>> Ancient oneing, right? whatever that or maybe it was cautious just caution there the whole time he was really talking to and so it was kind of Laurian and Kosh with a very little bit of Sheridan and Laurian didn't pop in there till the very end or something >> something like that >> but once that was out then we had whatever was left of Sheridan after falling down the hole and that's when he got his life force because I know there was questions of like when did the 20 years start when did it come back and we were like no no no it's after he almost gets killed like they brought him back to life he was going to be good and then he almost gets killed again and they have to do this other thing and it's like well what's the difference there?

[00:43:05]Yeah.

[00:43:06]>> But I think in in my head this is kind of where it where it lands.

[00:43:10]>> All right. I like that.

[00:43:12]>> The the physics of JMS on the show.

[00:43:16]>> All right. Well, speaking of physics, Jeff, there is something that you have to do that is at least metaphysical >> and that is to take this episode and figure out where it belongs in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5 season 4. watching it for a second time cuz it's like for the first time in forever. We only have three episodes in so you get to place this somewhere. We're still going to hang out in our top five anyway, but the way it goes right now, whatever happened to Mr. Gabaldi is top of the list, followed by Hour of the Wolf in last week's episode, The Summoning. Jeff, where does this episode get placed in the ranking? We've talked quite a bit about how these six episodes become a sexilogy or whatever sort of a thing.

[00:44:01]and we might as well just smush them all together and rank them as one thing. But then I think it was in the last episode we started talking about how well you know I mean there's peaks and valleys especially in a story as long as six episodes >> for this and I got to be honest I feel like this is one of the valleys >> really >> like it's got moments that are huge like the whole I mean the the the Kosh thing is massive [clears throat] the engagement is beautiful >> Zach is a shining star through everything but on balance like I'm going to say a thing and I don't mean it for what I'm saying like don't don't react to the words I'm about to say. Let me continue. There were good chunks of this episode where I found myself bored and I feel that it's because the peaks in this episode were so high that nothing else could really like measure up to it. We have other episodes like that. um Zahadum, you know, is like there's there's so much talking and whatever, but it all like flows into the big steps. In this one, Lita pops into room and it's like, "Hey, they're going to it was so jarring how we went from, hey, there's a thing we got to do and I can't tell you about it to, oh, it's happening. Oh, god." Like, here it is.

[00:45:16]>> So, I this is a it's a great episode and I but I think it's its own worst enemy in a couple of ways. where I'm going to rank it. I'm sure it will be pushed down with some of them, but uh it's still it's stay relatively high. It's still good. But falling towards Apotheiois, Bren is going to be our number four on the season so far.

[00:45:34]>> Wow.

[00:45:36]Wow. That's not where I would have placed it, but okay.

[00:45:38]>> No.

[00:45:39]>> No. This one would have been toggling above or below Hour of the Wolf.

[00:45:44]Probably would have been just a little bit below Hour of the Wolf.

[00:45:47]>> Wow.

[00:45:47]>> So, I would have probably had this at number three. I feel everything you're saying, but I felt all of that more so last week than I did this week.

[00:45:54]>> Okay. In the um first time, the objectively correct first time ranking.

[00:45:58]Yeah.

[00:45:58]>> This was the lowest ranking of the six, >> was it?

[00:46:02]>> Yeah. And it was at ended at number 18.

[00:46:06]>> Whoa. That just shows you how strong the season is.

[00:46:08]>> For real. Like I'm looking at some of these and it's just like, oh my god. But see, okay, so but what is it when we talk about these first six episodes are so freaking good because we consider them one big thing and and it's almost unfair to rank them separately because it is imagine us going in and ranking an episode by act one, act two, act three, act four, act five and not as a whole complete story. on my uh Star Trek podcast, the Starfleet Leadership Academy.

[00:46:36]>> Uhu.

[00:46:37]>> I didn't include Peicard, this the series Peard in my because I had this algorithm that would randomly spit out the episode >> to watch. I didn't put Picard in for the longest time because >> you you can't just take one episode of it, >> right? And like from a leadership perspective especially, like there'd be >> massive range of nothing.

[00:46:56]>> So I made a decision. I think it was my 50th episode um to celebrate that. I did the entire first season.

[00:47:04]>> Yeah, I remember you talking about this.

[00:47:05]>> Yeah, it took me like 40 42 hours.

[00:47:08]>> Yeah.

[00:47:08]>> To construct that episode. It was a little over like 40 minutes long. And it was I will never ever do something like that again. It was horrible.

[00:47:17]>> You had your JMS moment.

[00:47:18]>> Exactly. Like I did >> JMS did the whole show. You're like, "Yeah, that's cool. I'm never doing that again.

[00:47:22]>> I'm going to do it again." And I think the thing is it >> it was a it was not it was the only way to do that series with the approach I was taking to the Star Trek episodes.

[00:47:31]Only way was to take it as one piece.

[00:47:33]>> And that's kind of what we thought I think coming in that these six were. But I'm going to say I'm going to put this out there as we are approaching the end of these six episodes. It was the strength of the next two that just kind of blanketed our opinion of all the other episodes to a point where we're like, "These are awesome." When really like they're great and these ones are awesome.

[00:47:57]>> But I would also say that the next two episodes would not be as awesome as they were >> without these without the work of the first four.

[00:48:04]>> No, exactly.

[00:48:05]>> I mean, Sleeping in Light would not be as awesome of an episode as it is. you need 109 episodes before.

[00:48:11]>> If you take any person, you throw them inside of Sleeping Light, they'll be like, "Oh my god, can we please get through this episode?" But because we have done the work and we've gone through it, I I think it's very fair to say if you have not watched Babylon 5 episodes 1 through 110, >> you are not allowed to watch 111.

[00:48:28]>> Yeah, >> that episode is not for you because it depends on the work that that of everything else and it hangs. And that's that's part good writing, right? That's the complete story, you know. So, a big reason why we all love Babylon 5 so much is because it sticks the landing so well >> and the roller coaster in the between is there >> and it sticks the landing multiple times through the series [snorts] and we're heading into one of those right now.

[00:48:55]>> I'm just going to say high five Katarina.

[00:48:57]That's right. I don't think we're going to rank these six together as one, but I think there's an argument to say that we should, but I'm not going to say we're going to. That's our ranking. Jeeoff, >> it is And that's going to do it, Jeff, for falling towards apotheiois.

[00:49:11]Next week, we are watching literally I don't know why we're doing this again.

[00:49:17]The worst episode of the entire series in the long night. No, wait. That was the long dark. This is the long night.

[00:49:26]It's the long something. No, it's not the worst. Jeff, what do you remember about this episode? The thing I remember the most about this episode has nothing to do with the episode itself, but it was a YouTube comment where somebody said something about like this is going back maybe end of season 3ish and they were like, "Well, this is something whatever." And The Long Night and I was like, "Oh my god, the Long Dark was such a bad episode. This has got to be like you've got to be joking that they went back to this construction. Like the Long Night, is that even worse than The Long Dark? Like come on. That's there's no way it would do this." I have to be honest that in the scope of these six, these next two episodes are the exact same episodes in my head. Is is this where they kill Cartagia? I think maybe it might be the I don't remember. All I remember is I loved this episode, but I couldn't tell you a single specific thing out of it >> because I'd probably be talking about Into the Fire, but I might not be. What do you remember about this one?

[00:50:21]>> Same thing I remembered about the last three episodes. It's awesomeness. It's I couldn't tell you what happens. Is this the episode where Cartagia dies? Because in my head that shouldn't happen till episode six.

[00:50:30]>> I know. I think it might be six. I don't remember.

[00:50:32]>> You know, I I do know I do remember that episode six is probably the single best 45 minutes of television I've ever seen.

[00:50:38]Yep.

[00:50:38]>> Potentially. It really is. And it couldn't be that without the work of episodes 1 2 3 4 and 5. So what happens in this? This might be the episode where Hajia dies.

[00:50:46]>> Um >> maybe >> we'll find out, right?

[00:50:49]>> I don't know. I'm going to love it.

[00:50:51]Whatever it is. Although I will say it does seem that the last two episodes maybe we didn't love as much. It shot them out of our memory said we loved them more than we actually did and then reality is coming back to catch up with us. It's >> uh it's confirmed by our council chambers that Kartagia dies in the next one.

[00:51:08]>> Thanks for the spoilers, guys.

[00:51:11]>> Jeez.

[00:51:11]>> Hey, you gave a spoiler warning. It's fine.

[00:51:13]>> Throw that out there. Why don't you?

[00:51:15]>> We're in a spoiler zone. Basically, we're in the water park of spoilers at this point. And what makes us super exciting this time around though, Brent, this week is we're all going to find out what happens next week and maybe be a little bit surprised about it. So, make sure that you've subscribed to us wherever you're watching or listening so you don't miss this one. Uh like it, comment on it, rate it, do all those sorts of things. If you've got the time and the means, head over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/badnerds.

[00:51:44]There's a link in the show notes for that. But like we have a ton of stuff on there. We have unedited versions of this show that you're watching right now, full and unedited versions of Stargate SG1 for the first time. We have individual reactions we've done on other shows. There's a ton of content on there. Plus, at our council chambers tier, you get invited to our recordings and could be a part of the show just like our incredible group that's with us here tonight. If you really want to help though and the Patreon isn't an option for you and you've already commented, you've already subscribed and done all that stuff, would you share this episode? share it with somebody who doesn't want to love and revel in Babylon 5 for the first and second time.

[00:52:25]So until that time, until the long night comes along for Brent, I am >> Hey, Jeff.

[00:52:30]>> Yeah. What's uh what's up?

[00:52:32]>> Hey, do uh do do you know >> do I know what >> do do you know what happens next?

[00:52:41]Cartagia dies in the next episode.

[00:52:43]>> Dude, just a second ago you were saying it. Where's the spoiler warning on this thing?

[00:52:48]>> Dude, I warned you about spoiler warnings in this episode.

[00:52:50]>> Dude, get the hell out of this galaxy.

[00:53:01][music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat up here.

[00:53:30][music] Heat.

[00:53:43][music] Heat.