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Did Cody Rhodes Turn Heel? WWE WrestleMania 42 Night One Review | WrestleTalk PodcastAdded:
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>> Hello and welcome to the Wrestle Talk podcast. Usually here every Tuesday and Friday, but for the next 6 days or so here Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday because yes, it's Wrestlemania, baby. Woo!
Someone tell that to TKO and ESPN, though. I'm Ollie Davis. I'm joined by Luca and D A. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast from. That could be on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts.
I've not got a QR code bit or anything like that today.
>> Well, you said you were over it on Thursday's episode. You were like, I'm I'm I'm bored of it now.
>> You know what? I think I'm over promotion in general. I don't think I ever want to see anyone promote anything ever again apart from Luke Owen's Kickstarter.
>> That's absolutely right. Yes. Click the link in the video description down below because our Kickstarter for my book 2001 the death and rebirth of wrestling is it's live. It got funded in just 9 hours and we are I think just before we came before I checked nearly at the 50% mark to the stretch goal of the audio book version of it as well. That means people who can't read, which is most wrestling fans, can enjoy it in these audio. It's like a podcast. It's a podcast, but it's written down.
>> Exactly. Yeah. So, please do support it.
Pre-order your copy of the book today.
>> Okay. We'll try and make Oh, we'll probably plug Patreon as well, but my god, and I cannot believe the amount of ad breaks we So, right, >> the stats are I've got the stats. Uh oh, no, the stats are in my other document.
I don't have the stats. I'll try and do them off the top of my head.
>> Um >> Oh, yes. Yeah. So, this whole show lasted 3 hours 55 minutes.
>> So, let's for let's for the sake of argument call it a 4hour show.
>> Yeah, that's uh I would say that's longish for recent Wrestlemania nights.
>> Yeah, it's regular for an AW show.
>> Oh yeah, that that's a breeze for an AW show. You know what? Get this out the way fast. Uh, I enjoyed the time zone experience of this >> cuz it started at 11:00.
>> Oh, it started at 11:00 p.m. our time.
We were done by three.
>> Yeah, it was nice.
>> That was that that was very pleasant. I didn't I didn't get tired in the show.
>> No, >> that not because of the show, but because of my own like the time it was on.
>> And we had a lovely time as well.
>> Yeah. Me, you, Dan, and Kieran. And you can do that. I'm going to plug something again. patreon.com/wrestle talk with we'll be there this evening with our exclusive live reactions tonight too. But imagine if that if this show Wrestlemania 42 started at 1:00 a.m. like it sometimes does and it finished at 500 a.m. and it had all of those ad breaks.
>> We have said on this show many many times over. It's become pretty much a a staple of the Wrestle Talk podcast. WWE shows are not designed to be watched live. Watching this show live is a miserable experience.
>> Yeah. So, of the 3 hours 55 minutes run time, we had 1 hour 25 minutes of in ring wrestling.
>> That is awful.
>> That's 36% of the actual show.
>> So, the rest of it is I mean entrances are not included within that as well.
This is belltobell action >> and a big part of Wrestlemania is the entrances. So you know Liv Morgan's entrance is a big part of Wrestlemania.
That's my favorite bit of entrance. Cody wrote the longest bit of Wrestlemania is a big part of Wrestlemania. So when we are sitting here being like there was only 1 hour and 20 odd minutes of wrestling. The way that WWE would look at that be like but you're missing the bigger picture. It's not just then it was three hours of adverts. there was entrances and John Cena uh did a a fine speech to to open the show where he basically said story lines suck but I promise you tonight we'll be good. Well, it's important then to compare that against previous year's Wrestlemania to make sure that we're not just a, oh, it was actually just a mediocre or subpar show matches felt rushed or or the drama wasn't there, but hey, actually, if you compare it to other Wrestlemania, that's roughly the amount of time that is devoted to wrestling because the rest of the time is, yeah, it's the live performances, it's Liberace, it's all the stuff, the pomp and circumstance that comes with Wrestlemania, >> the experience of Wrestlemania. Mania stats do not uh work in your favor for that argument. Mania 41 night one which was the previous year that had a 3h hour 43 minute show that had 1 hour 45 minute of wrestling that is 47%. Nearly half.
>> Uh yeah, Mania 41, night two, 46% Mania 40, you know, the one we all love, 52% of wrestling on night one. I think 30% of that is the main event tag match.
>> And then Mania 40 night 2, 45% wrestling. We are at the high 40s of average percentage wrestling time of show to in ring action. And if you want to be generous and do some rounding up and rounding down, you can look at those numbers and be like, roughly half of the show was wrestling and the other half was the other stuff which was entrances, cone zones, uh, dude wipes, that sort of thing. Well, I think in previous years Wrestlemania to my recollection, I've not gone back and checked this, >> the discussion has been around this match is sponsored >> that that this sponsor dude wipes or the cones own crunch is sponsoring Ray versus Dom >> and it's somewhat undermining the drama and the seriousness of the story.
>> Yeah, >> that's been the problem there that the adverts are in with the wrestling.
>> Yeah. The problem here, remember this, we're talking, let's say, 48% on average in ring action for Wrestlemania. This is over 10% lower in ring action. And it's not like that's been filled with these amazing John Cena Dan sketches. No, it seems to all have been filled with ad breaks and mostly Hulk Hogan clips for his documentary on Netflix.
>> So, I think we got those because we were watching it on Netflix. I don't know what they were getting on ESPN, but boy howdy did we get a lot of pro. I think Hogan got more screen time on this show than any other wrestler did.
>> There were four four-minute clips we watched.
>> That's 16 minutes. That makes it the second longest match of the night.
>> It's got to go over, brother.
>> Fair. Absolutely fair for Hogan.
>> Yeah, I will say as well, um I've started watching uh this show because I've been given a screener for it. Uh, I can't do a I can't give a a review because it's embargoed until the 22nd, but what I can say is >> I'm liking it.
>> I think it looks good. I'm I I probably won't watch the screener. I'm a bit full of wrestling uh with what we've got lined up already, but Wednesday, I'm going to devour my favorite Turkish takeaway and I'm going to watch a couple of episodes.
>> I mean, I'm probably going to watch the full thing today cuz it's four episodes.
Um, and I'm I'm enjoying it thus far.
>> Great. So, yes, that's the uh I think the the there's two points to this WrestleMania for me. One is that there were way too many commercials. You know, the pay-per-view experience. I know that's quite outdated now in WWE'se's business model, but the big shows, you're like, well, that's you don't get the ad breaks. No, it really hit me when we were doing our live reactions last night and I just turned to you all during one of them and I just said, "Wrestlemania will be right back."
>> And that was like it is. You're watching Wrestlemania and I'm looking up at a screen and I'm watching a countdown timer that says, "We'll be right back."
It's atrocious to watch live. And to say, "We'll be right back implies that you were there in the first place. I don't feel like Wrestlemania ever got started.
>> No, this this year's Wrestlemania, night one of Wrestlemania, which this is like little TKO night one Wrestlemania, is the truest form of nshitification.
>> Uh yes. Yeah, it really really Oh, it's stage two of inshidification which is where you worsen the uh experience for customers to be us and and enhance it for your business partners >> but also at the same time screwing over your business partners because they didn't allow an ESPN reporter into the building because he uh gave Russell Pooer a C grade.
>> Well, what we don't know that for sure that he was just not allowed into the building. Yeah, he said you can draw your own conclusions because he also wrote up an article about the Janelle Grant lawsuit. You can you can draw your own conclusions as to why an ESPN reporter, their legit business partner, Wrestlemania was on ESPN and they didn't allow an ESPN reporter into the building. That's engineification screwing over your own business partners.
>> It's an A+ business uh business move.
So, you've got the the ads the initification of WWE. got all of these ads literally replacing time that you would have for matches because we you know we've the numbers are right there that is down 12% in screen time and all of that time has gone to these ad breaks >> there a lot of the Patreon we got so much Patreon feedback to this pay-per-view and so much of it was I got the impression it really felt like the matches were being rushed through so we can get to another ad >> break definitely and the the second point for me is and you know they are connected. They have sacrificed time in ring to tell substantial Wrestlemania level stories for adverts which means all of the matches weren't good enough.
>> No, there's one bit of feedback that's really stuck with me which is I don't think I'll ever go back and rewatch any of these matches. Come Monday, I'll have probably forgotten most of them that had happened.
>> I'm going to watch Liv Morgan's entrance every morning. Every live Morgan.
>> Every >> every live morning.
>> Every live Morgan.
>> Every Morgan. I'm gonna be >> Gen Morgan.
Um, good Morgan and good night. Where can we go with this? Everyone put in your own uh Morgan morning.
>> Yes. But I cannot tell you anything that happened in that women's tag match outside of Paige here. M >> Paige made her pa that is the only thing you're ever going to remember about that match. What the the Gunther Rollins match is probably the only one where I'd be like, "Oh yeah, that was like that was a good match, but I'm not going to rewatch it. I'm not going to I'm not desperate to go back and watch it over again." No, no, no. The in the moment like when we were watching it, uh I think Dan might have said, "Oh yeah, well that what what a good match. What a great match." I was like, "Pump pump your brakes there, Sunny.
This is uh that was a that was a decent match, but we're talking low four in in the in the star rating here.
>> Yeah, cuz you said four you said four stars and I went >> Yeah, I think probably it's probably a fourstar match.
>> And it probably is like if you were to be super critical, you might say three and three/4ers, >> but realistically it's probably four on the dot.
>> You could knock off a quarter star with the argument of Braum Breaker caused the Yeah. the the finish and and you know that's interference finishes you might take against that.
>> It felt like like a lot of matches it was just about to get going and then it ended.
>> So let's talk about the main event because yeah it's it's both this combination at the peaked of far too many far too much real estate being used for adverts and matches not being good enough.
>> Yeah. So, it sort of starts before the main event. I didn't realize this until I was writing my review. We have Stephanie Ver and Liv Morgan that ends.
And from that match ending to the next match, which was the main event, Cody Rhodess and Randy Orton, it was 38 minutes.
>> Yeah. And we counted that for the Pat angle at the start where he attacked uh Cody Rhodess and Jelly Roll got involved.
>> Yeah. So, not even until the bell >> the bell rings. I think it was about 42 minutes between the Stephanie Vaka Liv Morgan match ending and the Cody Rhodess Randy Orton match beginning. 42 minutes.
It's an episode of the West Wing.
>> And do you remember what one of the big talking points coming out of Elimination Chamber was?
>> Yeah. You had >> gap between matches.
>> I think it was AJ Lee and Becky Lynch finished and then you had 37 minutes between that and the men's elimination chamber match starting. That was because of Dan Hen. It was because of the entrances, but it was also because of loads and loads of commercial breaks.
>> Yeah, you and I have said it on this show for the last few years that the gaps between matches are ludicrous within WWE. But now, but you could get by when they were doing this because the product was hot and people were super into it. When the product is not hot and it is not a hot product at the moment, it's so much more glaring that the gaps between matches are too long. I don't know how you could look at what happened at Chamber as as Paul Leve and and the people who run WWE on the creative time and outside and go, >> "Yeah, yeah." No, I think I think we can push that further. I think we can make it longer between the the last match and the main event match so people we're not going to have a toilet break match anymore so people can just go and get their drinks and come back. I really think look the ad that there's the argument for the ad breaks blah blah blah we've paid for this premium service why am I getting more ads on top of it that that that's that's in shouldation >> but just from a live experience you are you are experiencing a crowd in there in person who cannot get into the show because the show can never get momentum even when something starts like with the Gunther and Rollins bit which was you know it was decent maybe you could have started something rolling there. Now we got to have a break for 15 minutes.
>> Yeah, exactly. And >> in AW Boom, next entrance.
>> So, fun fact for you. Uh you can write this one down. Uh between Seth uh between Liv Morgan and Stephanie Vaka and Cody Rose versus Randy Orton starting, you could have had six Stephanie Vaka Liv Morgan matches.
>> Would you want that though?
>> S you six of them. six of that match that they had in between that match finishing and the next one starting.
>> That probably means you could listen to trouble 12 times.
>> Trouble travel.
It's been in my head all morning. I was walking to the tube and I could feel trouble. That's me. Jerry lips and my whatever.
>> You do go David Bowie when you do your version.
>> I think she's trying to be uh Britney.
>> Yeah. Where's Where's my travel travel?
That's my um So, yeah, we'll be right back. Cody Rhodess and Randy Autumn.
This starts with and it's like all night I I'm feeling like this doesn't feel like Mania and we're all talking about, well, there's the ad breaks, the matches aren't long enough, it's just not very good. And then we get our first video package of the night recapping the Cody Randy epic saga. You know, you can say what you want about the build. You can say a lot of criticisms about it. WWE do this every year. The video editing department is top tier. It always has been. It's one of the few things WWE does consistently fantastically. Better than any other wrestling promotion.
>> And they didn't do a single other video package for any other match on this card >> because that would have taken away from putting an ad break in. M you like you can't get a sponsorship in if you've got to have a video package. People were bemoning there was no backstage segments which in I would push back on ever so slightly because we haven't had those for years and we we don't have them under the Triple H era of WWE. So there being no backstage segments is not a surprise to me whatsoever. I also for for big pay-per-view events I think backstage segments stuff like that that feels very TV in ring segments that feels TV. I I like just matches prestige matches. Yeah.
>> On your Wrestlemania crazy.
>> But uh when it comes down to Randy Orton versus Cody Rhodess, people were desperate for 09 to return and you got it here cuz it was [ __ ] boring. This match was so boring.
>> It had Randy had the longest entrance.
I'm like, "Mate, come on. Just get down there." Uh Pat McAfee got a full entrance. Cody got the full Batcave entrance. So you had all his previous gimmicks. You had uh debuting Cody. Was it like yellow and green?
>> Oh, yeah. It was the the green and green trunks and the yellow.
>> Uh we had a Stardust.
We had Dashing. And we had >> American Nightmare.
>> American Nightmare.
>> Yeah. You know, like his uh you said the Batman Batman suits. Batcave. the Iron Man, the various different Mark suits that he's got, all the different marks behind him.
>> And then they would like show you that and it was quite cool. Although the actual like model that it was on was terrifying because it would they had made it look like it was Cody but somehow made it not look like it was Cody and then it would cut to a [ __ ] PNG of him wearing the to just so you know this is that. So it was good but also quite badly done at the same time.
>> Yeah. just I if someone here made that I' been like okay I see what you're trying to do um a really good job >> just remove the PGs just go straight into the the footage because that's far more dynamic and it looks way better and those PGs look really really dated looks like I've just done a Google image search >> which I think they might have done >> yeah they they are the Google image renders of old Cody Rhodess PGs >> uh so but whatever you know it doesn't really matter They come down the the crowd is booing Cody and I'm like you have been crap all night crowd and I'm not blaming you because the the show has been actively working against your enjoyment. So I just thought okay it's a large crowd. Real fans have been priced out. You're either a hardcore lunatic who cheers everything WWE does or you're just there to impress a date. I don't know. But all of a sudden Cody comes out and he gets booed.
>> Well, they liked his entrance. They liked singing his song and then the second that that finished it was like now we're going to boo Cody Rose.
>> Yeah. So it really this whole story and Pat Pat has Pat's only function has been to get Cody cheered in segments with Pat. But for the rest of the time like yeah the the sort of title of this podcast is did Cody Rhodess turn heel?
>> He was working heel in this match.
>> Yeah. So we get into the match. Pat attacks Cody with the the mic right away. Cody takes out Pat and Randy.
Crossroads on Pat. He's going to put Pat through the announce table, but then Jelly Rolls just there.
>> Yeah, Jelly Rolls there.
>> Jelly Rolls there. No entrance for Jelly Roll.
>> No, which is a shame, I suppose.
>> Mhm. And Jelly Roll's like, "I got this, buddy."
>> And he he does a >> Yeah.
>> A little elbow.
>> It's the TKO night of mania. You got your big celebrities in there. You got Pat McAfee. you opened up the night with the uh influencers with Logan Paul and Aisha Speed. And I know some people will say like, "No, go come on, Logan Paul's a full-time wrestler now. I think we can stop calling him a celebrity." No, no, no. He is a celebrity within this that that is his purpose is to be a celebrity and an influencer and a crossover guy.
>> And so it's you had that you start and you get your celebrities in the main event with Pat McAfee and Jelly Roll.
That will be your viral clip that will go up onto ESPN the following day.
>> And I get it. I just feel like it really uh it really sapped the the heat. Like I I feel like the story of this is Cody doing the move on Pat.
>> Well, I I Well, yes, but also Jelly Roll's been in this build for weeks on end, so it makes sense that he is there and part of it. But in fairness to Jelly Roll at least it was interesting to watch because what did you get after that? Randy Orton doing headlocks and chin locks and rest holds. Give me Jelly Roll doing more elbow drops through tables because that was far more dynamic to watch than boring Randy Orton having a boring match.
>> It's Well, it's boring Randy Orton. It's heel Randy Orton who is not interesting to watch work. It's only in the last couple of years that me and you have started to like him because he's fun as a heel and he's reached a point in his career now.
>> He's fun as a baby face.
>> Sorry. Yeah, he's fun as a baby face.
He's reached a point in his career now where people don't want to boo him >> because like he yeah he's got legendary status. He's got the story of going for that 15th world title.
>> We talked about this with TNA during the Hogan era of TNA where they kept trying to turn Ric Flair heel or turn like I was like people aren't going to boo these guys. Stop trying to turn these guys heel. Trying to let's try and turn Sting heel. No one's going to boo Sting.
So, so Randy is actually I like watching him wrestle his matches as a baby face because he's got a really good comeback.
Yeah.
>> As a heel, his whole career has been slow working over body parts. Headlock, rest, hold, grind it down, grind down the audience so Cena can start making his five moves of doom comeback. That's that's the whole point of Randy, to facilitate Cena being asleep in the ring. But then it switched up and Cody started working heel. So he was doing the chin locks and he was doing the rest holds and he was doing the slow Gavin stomps which you know wasn't exciting by this point. It was far more exciting than what Randy was doing because Cody's got an intensity about him. You know he smeared Ry's blood cuz Randy had busted himself open across his chest. I thought that was pretty good. But really this is the story. The story has been Cody, you need to embrace this dark side of you to beat Randy Autton because Randy Autton is the old Randy Orton. He's the Viper.
He's a bad guy now. Yeah.
>> And this is telling the story of Cody doing that and in so doing is weirdly turning Randy face because Randy Yeah.
just started to fullon work baby face made a fullon baby face comeback. This is when the story and match and drama actually got quite exciting.
>> Yeah. So >> 15 minutes in.
>> Well, yeah. I mean, it's a lot like the the Cena matches of last year, which was boring 15 minutes and then shenanigans happen and it gets a bit it gets fun, but isn't that like you saying that the story of this match is Cody, he needs to go to this dark side in order to be which is what we just had with the Cena feud last year is that he wouldn't pull the trigger on going to the dark side and that's what meant Cena won the never seen Loo and we're just getting the same thing with him.
>> Well, yeah. Well, what did we have with Cena for all those years? the same story. Oh, is Cena finally gonna turn heel? Oh, is he going to embrace the the mean side of Cena?
>> Yes, but then it's all resetted for reset for next week's episode. Back to basics.
>> That was going to be sort of my end point of all of this talking point is that I don't think this is going to change one thing about Cody Roo's character on screen or Randy Orton's character on screen for that matter either.
>> So, the match does I think becomes really exciting. Cody hits an RKO. It's a near fall. Randy hits an RKO. They're sort of like trading finishes. And then Cody thumbs Randy in the eyes. That's a full-on heel move.
>> Yeah. It somehow made Randy Orton not know where Cody Rose was and he RKO'ed the referee.
>> I don't It is It is dumb. I don't really know.
>> Randy knew he knew full well who he was in an RKO on.
>> I just wanted stuff to happen at this point and stuff was happening. He RKO's Charles Robinson by accident and then Randy goes to I guess you could say it was a heel justification. Randy goes to lowblow Cody. Cody stops Randy. Low blows R uh low blows back. Cody goes to hit a super Cody cutter and then Randy hits it in this RKO which seems to have Cody just whack his face or head on the mat. Immediately starts bleeding.
>> I think this is where he's because he's got a big black eye at the moment. I think this is from this people. Oh, it's from the punt. I think it might have been from this moment.
>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz the punt is worked.
Remember, >> Randy didn't just kick him in the side of the head to end this. So then Pat McAfee runs down. He has been taken out earlier. Everyone's been waiting for him to return and do some interference bit.
And he's in the referee shirt. He's in the neck brace. He's got the shades on.
>> They're on his head. Yeah, honestly, look, he should not be in this feud. I think he's a great heel.
>> He is playing a good heel character.
Yes, >> but he comes in and we should be getting right now. One, two, one, two, three.
One, two, three.
>> Yeah.
>> Why isn't Jelly Roll pulling Pat out at one, two?
>> Yeah.
>> Instead, one.
>> You don't want that TNA referee situation there, do you? In the main event.
>> One, two.
>> Where are you, Alicia?
That's a TNA story where someone was meant to pull out the referee. Uh, no one was there.
>> So, the referee pulled herself out the ring.
>> Pull yourself off sometimes. And yeah, Auton's like, "Why didn't you do a fast count?" Pat's like, we're all like, "Why?" And it's just confusing at this point. But then Randy hits an RKO on Pat.
>> Yeah. Very telegraphed. He's now going to hit him with an RKO. Yeah. But I but we were there like and really we're now going to get going and we can get into some drama and some near falls and then Cody hit the crossroads and won.
>> Yeah. This that Randy hitting the RKO on Pat is like okay f final 3 to 5 minute stretch.
>> Yes. And you can replace some of those words and say Travis Scott being hit with the crossroads. This will now start the final 5 to 7 minute stretch.
>> And it's not our fault WWE. You set this precedent at Wrestlemania 40. Oh, that was a bloodline rules match. I'm not sure we can say that that set the precedent that you get like a bunch of runins and stuff.
>> WWE has a pattern in their main events under Paul that you get the fake out finish and then you get five minutes of the match beyond afterwards.
>> Yeah. So, one of the criticisms of MJF and um the Kenny Maker and MJF match at Dynasty was, oh, I knew the match wasn't going to end until that table got broken, the check off table that was done at the start of this. I think with the Paul Lee main event is that I know that the match is not going to end before the shenanigans before someone runs in and does some interference and distractions >> which is why you subvert that. You do the big interference and reactions. You do that cuz that's a near fall for me.
Cody hitting Cody hitting that crossroads. One slow Charles Robinson.
One, two. Oh, it's a kicker. Oh my god.
Pat's Pat's down. The referee's still fatigued. What the hell is going on? But no, >> no, Cody just won.
>> Cody won. He holds up the belt blooded >> crowd boo.
>> Crowd boo him.
>> Of course they did.
>> Randy takes the belt off of him, hits Cody with it. Crowd cheer that. And then for the first time since 2020, Randy Orton hit a punt on Cody. He poses with the belt over co's carcass. And the crowd initially cheer and then they realize, wait, that's the end of the show.
They start to boo the show.
>> What a mess.
So you almost had to do Cody being the heel within this match because the crowd were booing him. So that means that Orton had to play the baby face in peril. But your ultimate goal is not to have Cody turn heel. So then you do an angle at the end where Randy remains being the heel to do a heel act. But the crowd don't boo it. They just cheer him doing it. It's an a mess of a situation.
they have got this completely wrong and they should have seen this coming and probably knew it was going to happen >> and and everyone who's maybe a newer fan maybe a bit younger and you're like well why are they doing this like the crowd clearly are sort of they've moved on from Cody sure some kids and he has some a lot of support I'm sure but there's there's a an insurmountable negativity against him turn him heel Ry's obviously the cool baby face. Just have him work as a face.
>> And no one's going to boo him cuz he's got legendary status, >> right? All of that stuff there we said about John Cena for 10 years and and you're also coming in and saying, "Oh, John Cena the greatest of all time." No, no, John Cena was what Cody Rhodess is now for 10 15 years and he couldn't work.
>> Yeah, that's that's very true.
>> So it's like just remember that everyone.
>> We were also saying it about big dog Roman before he got interesting when he turned heel in 2020. Every week on this podcast, crowd are booing him. needs to turn him heel. This needs a character refresh.
>> But the thing is with Roman, with John Cena, there's always like if he turns heel, I'm like everything's going to be fixed. What they've done with Roads, they've told this story so many times of will he turn heel or they've got to tie themselves in knots to work out the psychology of a match because they know people are going to cheer the opponent just like what used to happen with Cena.
that I I look at this and I'm like, well, I don't think this is solved by Cody suddenly turning heels.
>> The only way I think it gets solved is if he gets a a faction and like it ends with a new new world order. You know what I mean? Like I'm not saying like do the new world order again, but he gets like a heel faction. Your pitch of him turning heel and having a group of guys his own version of legacy to defeat Randy Orton. That would have been the way that to make an interesting heel road. If if roads had just turned heel, that probably wouldn't have been an interesting thing. But like, oh man, there's a new dynamic here and we're gonna this will be the next chapter of the story. But instead, the show ended with just going back to the status quo and Cody is the baby face and Ry's the heel. Cody will get booed, Randy will get cheered, and we honestly don't care.
And I'm saying from TKO's perspective, we don't care.
>> Yeah, because Cody can go out and do the media interviews. He can have the belt on his shoulder and he still sells tickets.
>> Exactly. But for how long? Um, so one of the big reports was Pat said if Randy doesn't win the title of Mania, we'll never see Pat again. So if we take him by those words, Pat McAfee is done with WWE as an on-screen character.
>> It did feel like that this match was being sorry about that bound nonfactor.
She he is the Deborah of of Wrestlemania 42.
>> Or again, do they not care? Because the reported main event of Backlash, the next pay-per-view is Cody Rhodess and Jelly Roll versus Pat McAfee and Randy Autumn.
And I've I've heard a lot of people say, "Well, that obviously isn't happening.
That was probably misinformation spread by WWE as as they like to do around WrestleMania time. I've seen a few other reports that feel a bit misinformation mania."
>> Yeah. But then I'm like, well, Ry's character, he RKO's his friends all the time as a heel or baby face.
>> This felt like a split of that that act.
I >> I But would you be surprised if in the next couple of weeks Pat and Randy are actually just on the same page and Pat's like, "I'm sorry, buddy. I should have counted quicker." And the jelly roll involvement and we still build to that match.
>> Yeah. I mean, I I would not be surprised to answer your question. No, I would not be surprised if this continued on Smackdown and we still went on that direction for Backlash.
>> I'm not saying I think I'm I'm really adamant that's going to happen or want it to happen. I just think it's a possibility because everything's so naff. Where do you go from here?
>> Another match.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I honestly at the end of this Yeah. It's just another match at Backlash. Cody versus Randy for the title. the the the only way I can see them getting out of it is what you said.
Cody comes out, he cuts a promo where he's whining, >> you know, he's like, "Look, you >> he he in his head he's still the baby face and he talks about and that's why I'm getting people." He calls up the faction, it's Ethan Paige, it's Ricky Saint, it's uh Royce Keys.
>> Well, I I think you just do those two. I think you just do uh Ricky Saint and Ethan Paige because if you're going to do a legacy as Legacy And he keeps on talking about how he's, you know, it's essentially the visions act. He's best for the the the original vision act at least.
>> But yeah, I this is so so uninspiring.
>> Uninspiring is the right word. I have seen people say this was worse than the Cena match last year, but I I think the Cena match was so much more worse than this.
>> I agree. Uh yeah, I I think this I think people are forgetting how rubbish that Cena match was in the ring. Cena having to figure out for the first time how to work heel after never having done that really >> and realizing and realizing it was not the way to do it because he did not do it again.
Um, so just before we go into the sort of full playbyplay part, has Triple H intentionally tanked night one >> in the same way that we feel he intentionally tanked the Cena heel turn and the Rock's involvement because that will make The Rock look bad and not Triple H and which to his credit did work because everyone blames The Rock for the senior heel. turn and the bad creative that followed on from it. Even though it was 100% Triple H that did it, uh the bad follow-up to it, I would not be surprised. He is the cerebral assassin.
>> Yeah, >> he's the game. He knows exactly how to play the political game to get fans to like what he is doing. It's we said this about when he uh the Civil War episode we did a few weeks back that where it's like you had the TKO portion of the show which is Pat McAfee. Then you had Triple H's portion of the show which is Cody Rhodess coming out and being like well that was a bad reveal wasn't it? Nothing to do with me. That was all Ari Emanuel not to do anything to do with me Triple H.
>> And and uh Triple H is all over the Brock Lesnar over Femi segments. He's like this is the good stuff. This is me.
This isn't me when it when it's all him.
>> You're absolutely right. I hadn't even thought about the Brock and Ober movie.
Yeah, putting himself in that makes it look like this is the stuff I Hey, if it were just up to me, you'd be getting this all across Wrestlemania, but gosh darn it, Vince Russo. Oh, standards and practices meant that I couldn't do this.
Triple H. Oh gosh, my hands are tied by AR Emanuel and TK TKO are the real villains >> when really he could have booked a better show. Sure, he has limitations.
He's feeling the pressure because TKO have come in and said we want these things which you know that's actually what happened. They wanted Pat McAfee put in it rather than try and make chicken salad out of chicken [ __ ] Le I I I suspect has made those storylines bad. Put the card in in a way where all of that stuff is on night one. So he can point to the poor ticket sales. He can point to the negative reception and go, "Look, maybe leave it to the experts next time." He is shoring up his own power. That's really what Triple H cares about at the end of the day, his position of power and protecting that at all costs. And he doesn't mind burning the people above him to get there, just like The Rock and as he's doing with Ari Emanuel right now. I'm not saying The Rock and Ari Emanuel are saints. Far from it. I'm saying it's a load of toss pots trying to out manipulate and outpower each other in these weird clandestine power dynamic ways.
Having said that, one of the main problems with night one is the ad breaks.
That to me feels like it's going to be the same for night two.
>> Yeah, we've got less matches on night two. Is it less matches on night two?
>> Six matches. There's no Cena segment advertised at least.
>> Yeah, the um the the Netflix report was or Tadum said that he was only on night one.
>> Well, it it just says Cena will host night one and there's nothing on night two.
>> And Brock and Ober's not exactly going to be a 20inut barn burner. That is going to be a punk rock four, five minute match where you just go in and hit your finishes, which by the way I'm advocating for. I think that's the way that match should be done. Um, what else we got on the car that could like >> Well, my my prediction then is the overall run time is shorter.
>> Yes, the of the show itself. Yes. So, it's probably more like 3:15.
>> Uh, we we might get a similar amount of wrestling, but proportionally it feels a lot quicker. I I reckon he's figured out a way to get round it to give the illusion that there's more wrestling on this show. So I'm reckoning Ober Fei Brock Lesnar 6 minutes the penser the ladder match I think that goes 15 Jade Cargill rear six Sami Zen and trick >> wait sorry six 27 >> 27 uh Sammy and Trick >> 10 >> 10 yeah I think 10 >> 37 >> Balor and Dominic >> 10 >> I said seven but I I think that match is going to go six seven minutes because you've actually got the the entrance is going to be the big thing >> 46 then >> and And then punk Roman Reigns. That's going half an hour, maybe even 35.
>> 25. Uh 1 hour 15. That's That's less I reckon I reckon matches are going to get more time.
>> Yeah, >> I reckon he's going to give matches more time because he's he's got one match fewer.
He'll have a shorter show. I think he'll he'll fudge the the numbers to give the impression of more wrestling.
>> Yeah, maybe you're right.
>> But we'll see. We'll see. the the the adverts are obviously a demand from ESPN Plus or Netflix and I I don't think you can not have those in annoyingly. Uh but yeah, it's like well then why didn't you do that for night one?
>> To make it look bad.
>> To Yeah, potentially to make it look bad. Let's see. Let's see.
>> Yeah. Before we um do go into the rest of the playbyplay though, um I mean we sort of umard about what the lead of this uh podcast should be. We thought we'll probably do it around the main event, but what we're going to call it, I think we actually have missed the bigger thing from Wrestlemania weekend.
Obviously, we had the Sandman's retirement match and the the running by Invisible Stan. But, um, I think there's actually a much bigger Mania moment that we have not had yet. And I'm going to put this up onto the screen for everyone now because during GCW's Cluster F, we had Shawn Ross versus Brian Alvarez.
>> Oh my god. And they get into a vicious chop exchange. Knife edge chops back and forth. It's Fightful versus the Wrestling Observer. So, and a thumb to the eye by Shawn Ross Sap.
>> He's going for the clothes line. It's a duck BY ALVAREZ. SUPER KICK BY ALVAREZ.
>> BEAUTIFUL.
>> ONE, TWO, THREE. He eliminates Shawn Rossat from the cluster.
>> Excellent. That's Wrestlemania.
>> That is That is great.
>> That's Wrestlemania weekend right there.
>> Well, should we get on with this night one? Uh, it started with Lin Manuel Miranda of Hamilton Fame putting over Wrestlemania in the video package. Uh, >> sure.
>> Yeah. Well, it always says of Hamilton fame, but I think the most famous thing he's done is Moana.
>> Or is that just that's the thing I've seen the most?
>> It's the thing you've seen the most, I think. Uh, then John Cena comes out. He comes out still with the white text John Cena. Uh, and then he gets the full entrance. He's in a pinstriped suit. He does a jog down the ramp that >> I thought he was joking. I thought he was making a joke about how he's old.
He's retired now.
>> I think that was just him trying to run.
>> Well, it's He's always got a weird run anyway. And I think now he's in a suit and he's in loafers. It's harder to do that run.
>> Yeah. He gets into the ring and he doesn't even bring his arms all the way up. He's in a suit.
>> Uh yeah, I thought he looked like Vince McMahon.
>> He did look like because of the plugs.
It feels like he's had new plugs done >> uh for his hair, for his hair that he does. He did look like old Vince McMahon. Not old Vince McMahon. Not like the the Vince man that's in the documentary.
>> He's not that Vince, but like ' 90s Vince. What about this, ladies and gentlemen?
>> The really beonded uh quiff. Yes. So he says, "Look, I'm polarizing And the build to Mania has been polarizing.
>> Triple H and John Cena go out there and be like, "Sorry, the story lines suck, but I'm sure the show will be great."
>> But then then you've got to put on a great show.
>> Honestly care. No >> gone. He's gone.
>> Well, I mean, again, what did people expect?
>> It's He's the host of Wrestlemania. This is what they do. They come out, they say, "Welcome to Wrestlemania," then they go home. This is not new.
>> Sometimes they do things though like Hulk Hogan and The Rock appear and Stone Cold Steve Austin. Hulk Hogan would be pretty impressive.
>> Very impressive. Well, you >> although he was he did get most screen time out of everyone.
>> He did say there would be an AI Hogan on this show. You could have done it, I suppose. Actually, that's a good example. Yeah, that was a really fun cuz you had Rock and Austin come out with Hogan and he got the name of the building wrong and that was that was quite funny. But like you know the rocker 20 whichever one it was he was the host of came out just did a half an hour speech and it was like when I say uh yabber you say dabber.
>> Yeah. Uh but this this really felt like something that was uh speed texted three weeks ago. Can you do this? We're really in a bind. We need to sell some more tickets. Sure.
>> And that's it. The first match was Logan Paul, Austin Theory, and I show Speed versus LA Knight and the Usos. LA Knight came out in a Ram truck. We're all scared he was going to slip off the top of the Ram truck and hurt himself.
>> Yep. Would be a very L night thing to do.
>> And the Vision come out and they have a split screen initially and then it cuts into different sort of eventually there's nine screens all with different shots. Yeah. Following them down to the ring. one of which wasn't working and two of them looked exactly the same.
>> Yeah, it was very fun for us because it is quite impressive. You know, they've got like all those cameras, some drones are flying around, but we just looked at the one that was a black screen >> and we pointed and WE LAUGHED LIKE, "AH, LOOK AT THESE DICKS. Look at these dicks." You look us wrestle talk with our technical problems that we have on a weekly basis. Ah, look at these dicks.
Ah, you tried so you tried too hard, wankers.
Uh, in none of those screens was their manager, Paul Heyaymon. Yeah, >> because he was trying to distance himself. Something fierce.
>> Well, he knew Braun was coming back later in the show. Just like, well, I'm going to be here for Braun.
>> So, the story of this match was really just based around I show speed. He tries to hit a move or he hits an impressive flip to avoid LA Knight, but then he'll get here. Builds up to him finally hitting something, which is the Huracan Rana. got a decent pop and then he accidentally pushed Ellie Knight into Logan Paul.
>> So obviously an accident >> but nevertheless Austin Theory was like why did you do that? Blah blah blah.
>> Such a tool.
>> Knight pushes Theory into speed. BFT on Knight. That's it.
>> BF BFT by Knight. It lasted about 8 minutes and that was it.
>> Yeah. I I can't tell you anything. The only thing I can tell you about this match is that they [ __ ] up the one D afterwards. Yeah, the Usos after being involved in the Roman Reigns punk angle four weeks ago, which they did excellently, are just filler here.
>> They checked out checked out something fierce for this match.
>> They were the fifth and sixth most important people in this six-man tag.
They >> really were.
>> So afterwards, LA Knight is sorry, Logan Paul's like, "Oh, Speed, why did you do that?" And then he starts beating up. I show speed which brought the baby faces down for no reason for the save.
>> Yeah. Well, you know, >> like there was no >> I was about to try and come up with a character justification there, but I I don't have anything.
>> So, they make the save and I show speed very impressively. Have to give him credit. Hits the really high jumping frog splash off the ring post >> on Logan Paul through the announce table.
>> It's the sort of splash that Logan Paul would do. And now here is another Twitch dude doing it to Logan Paul. I thought it was I thought that was really a fun spot.
>> Yeah, I was really impressed with he's on the ring post for a bit and then he does this sort of stand to attention thing.
>> Yeah, it's like a little mini hop >> and it was like the balance is insane.
>> Insane.
>> Very impressive.
>> And this this is why you have eyes show speed on the show. Like this is a really smart thing to do. I'm going to say smart like it's not for wrestling fans.
It's there for the the the crossover stuff because this will be the clip that's probably going to get shared the most is I show speed doing a thing in the same way that the most shared thing from that Royal Rumble he was in was him getting speared. Like this is why you have I show speed here to get the clicks. So two things I'll do I'll do the I can't Yeah, I'll do this one first.
I think this would have been far better if I show speed is trying to hit a move the whole match doesn't hit a move because when he does hit that huracan rana the crowd are just like oh cool well well done. They never really built up to the idea because they only had six minutes.
>> Yeah.
>> If you have speed trying to get a move in, trying to get a moving, keeps on getting cut off. He's cursed. But then maybe yeah that then in the match so the match hasn't ended yet.
>> You get I show speed to get up there with the baby fac's help. Everyone's like oh my god is he not just going to hit this move he's going to hit a move.
>> Yeah >> he hasn't been able to this entire time and he hits it and that's what causes the vision to lose.
>> While that is a fine theory and a fine idea, you are not looking at this in the form of one minute clips. But that would still be a one minute clip.
>> Yeah, but the one minute clip which you're just watching out of context, he may as well have only hit one move. You don't need to because if you just watch the one move that he does, you don't need to have known that he'd actually hit four moves previously to that because the most important thing there is you're watching this in one minute clips.
>> And I I'm still serving you that one minute clip, >> right?
>> And I'm give but I'm making the rest of it.
>> My way is you can have four one minute clips because you've got four moves that you can do in various different clips.
But but I you can still do the good clips with him missing things.
>> No, because that's not what people are after. They just want to see him. They want like the clip is him doing a move and hitting a move, not him trying to hit a move.
>> I really disagree because the most successful clip or one of is him getting laid out. It's him being speared by Bron Breaker. Have the other three clips be him getting absolutely destroyed by >> That's different. If it's him being hit with the 1D or him being hit with Elon B, that's different. What you're saying is him trying to do moves and missing them. Those aren't clips. Him being hit by moves. That is a clip.
>> No, no, that Sorry, that was what I was saying. Sorry. Okay. He's because that is the story of the match. He tries to hit a move, but then Jimmy Uso clothes on him. You do those things.
>> It needs to be bigger than a clothes line.
>> Yes, it does need to be. I'm saying do it all better.
>> Anyway, this apart from the I show speed stuff could have been on Raw. Not for the tag belts.
7 8 minutes long. Absolute waste of time.
>> I'm A few people said this in our patron comments as well. Could have been on Raw and you said this as well. I don't think this is on Raw. It is on Saturday's main event though.
>> Jacob Fatu and Drew McIntyre came out next for an unsanctioned match. Uh Rudy Charles is in the black outfit because he cannot WWE cannot possibly endorse the violence that that's about to occur.
>> Um they got a red toolbox out. They had some uh some table spots and best moons ever from Jacob on Drew through the table. Won it for him. Really really lackluster match for an unsanctioned St. >> Yeah, this was not only not a good hardcore match or or whatever you want to call it. It's the exact same match that Drew had with Damen Priest last year at WrestleMania.
>> I feel like that was better as well.
that had more oomph to it.
>> Yeah, but it's the same thing. Like he just went out there, they hit each other with some stuff, tables, and then one of them won.
>> So massively uninspiring.
I can't even say underwhelming cuz I wasn't prepared to be wellemed. Like it's a WWE quote unquote unsanctioned match. It was always just going to be chairs, tables. The most surprising thing in this is they didn't have a kendo stick. Well, I thought, okay, you've got the six the six man that will be like your influence and stuff. And this it's Drew McIntyre and Jacob Fatu.
Drew wrestles like he's always got a point to prove. Jacob Fatu is really intense.
>> The build to their match has been very spot like spectacular, spot heavy, them falling off the the scaffolding for instance. So, when I see the Wrestlemania stage and it's got these giant beams with what looks like a little scaffolding >> uh balcony on them, I'm like, "Oh, okay.
>> I know. I know that's crazy, but dare I dream for Wrestlemania?"
>> I don't think you can say it's crazy.
They were saying that on the pre-show.
You can't believe you're You won't believe what these two are going to do when it comes to cuz this was on ESPN like you got to stick around to watch this on ESPN 2. You are not going to believe. They're going to fight all over the building. There is nothing that can stop these two. And they just had a standard match.
>> Yeah. A standard street fight that you would watch on any episode of Smackdown.
>> This was Monday Night Raw, Friday Night Smackdown territory.
>> Yeah. Really disappointing. Um I don't I don't know. I don't want I don't tend to like to blame the performers. So, they've been they must have been told, "Don't go out there and do stuff."
>> Yeah. Because we've got to have blood in the main event. Cuz there was a spot when Drew was stabbing Jacob in their head with like a a wrench. And we were like, "Oh, and here you'll get the the some color." Jacob came up absolutely fine. And that had to have been by design because you're going to do color in the main event.
>> Yeah. Really disappointing. Um, I bet I bet they'll be really unhappy with that.
>> Which, by the way, I do think I do actually kind of agree with. One of the big criticisms against AEW is you do blood in too many of the matches, therefore the blood in the main event doesn't mean quite so much. And I I actually do take that and I think that's actually a really good criticism against AEW. The problem is then if it don't do an unsanctioned match then if your whole thing is we're going to do blood in the main event, don't do a match that might facilitate blood to improve it earlier in the card.
>> Yeah. Uh well, that was it. That was the pre-show. Uh that was the pre-show hour and then the main card. So, what's on ESPN Plus, I guess, started with the women's Fatal Four-way tag team title match. Uh everyone had really cool gear.
Alexa Bliss and Charlotte Flair in particular. They they looked awesome in their gear.
>> Alexa was sort of a monochrome moth for for Bray Wide, of course, and Charlotte was this really colorful butterfly. They look they look great together.
>> Really really good. I actually sort of forgot they were in this match actually.
>> Well, cuz it was it was seven minutes again with eight people in >> cuz there were more people in this match than there were minutes.
>> So the Bellas walk out, Nikki's got a microphone and she's on a crutch. She's got an ankle injury and she says, "I can't be in the match, but I called an old friend." And she introduces to tag with her sister Bri. Paige.
>> Paige here. page here.
>> Yeah, lovely. This was great.
>> Awesome.
>> Really, really good. This felt like a Wrestlemania moment and it's the only thing people will remember about this match is that Paige returned to WWE and she looked great.
>> She looked I don't know what it was about her in AW. Just something didn't look right. Whether it was her movement, whether it was her gear, the >> fillers, whatever it was, but she didn't look like P. She looked like Sura.
>> Yes. But then she returns here and she looked like Paige again.
>> She looked like she looked like she'd stepped out of 2015 16 and only aged like three years. Um, so they come down. I pitched on the on our live reactions patreon.com/wrestle talk. You can watch our night two live reactions there. tonight.
Why not have the entrances at the end of the ESPN hour, the free hour, let's call it, and you introduce Paige. She comes out. Oh my god, that's the big dramatic hook. And now she's going to wrestle her first WWE match in nine or whatever years.
>> You've got to upgrade to ESPN Plus.
We'll see you over there.
>> Yeah, I completely agree with you. But the way that the show is structured, excuse me, is that they got to get the ad breaks in. And that's that's kind of almost the important bit.
>> You got to get the ad breaks in rather than promoting your paid for subscription.
>> But they did they did promotion for it.
That was Jacob and Drew. That was I show Speed and Logan Paul like that. That is the promotion for it.
>> They're bad. They're bad at this. They are bad at this. I completely completely agree. Uh, I I personally thought the match was uh sloppy. Um, not very good.
I They didn't have enough time, I guess.
And Paige, I mean, you got Brie Bella in there. Paige is in there. Nothing looked particularly great. They're very rusty, both of them. And they were never Well, Paige was good, but Bri was never good to begin with. So, I It was what it was.
Uh, Charlotte got distracted by Nikki.
Nikki hit her with a crutch. Alexa is on top of the top turnbuckle for forever just looking at Charlotte being beaten up.
>> She was there for four of the six minutes of this match.
>> Huh? Should I hit the twisted bliss now?
I thought she was going to hit the twisted bliss on Nikki and Nikki moves and she hits Charlotte instead. No, she hits it on Paige. Totally misses Paige's knees. Just gets the feet and Paige hits a rampage to win. Yeah, it was the honestly the best bit of this match was when the cameraman fell over.
It was he tripped over Lyra and he fell right on his ass. Went proper A over T and it was hilarious cuz they literally cut to his camera as he fell over.
>> Yeah. And then there's a reverse shot and you can see him standing up and he's laughing and he's laughing.
>> The best bit of the match.
>> Um Dan had a good idea, didn't he? That Paige's original plans might have been to come out and challenge AJ Lee for the Intercontinental title. Yeah, that would have been really fun.
>> That would have been fun.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so we're hour and a half into the show by this point. We had 29 minutes of wrestling.
>> I think by the way, they're losing these tag titles on Monday.
>> Uh, we had AJ Lee versus Becky Lynch.
Talking of next, no video package.
>> No good person.
>> No video package for this feud that's been going on for eight months.
>> Oh, Michael Cole can tell me that on commentary.
>> Becky got a live band uh to do her stuff. AJ Lee skip down with the child ladies.
>> You need to watch the live reactions to get the full context.
>> Lady children.
>> Um, one of them ran away.
>> Yeah, she got a bit overwhelmed by the whole thing. When I saw um Limb Biscuit and Margate uh a couple of years back, they do this thing where they get someone from the crowd to come on stage and do a song with them. I think it's like boiler or something. And the lad got up there and Fred was just like, "Hey man, what's your name?" And he looked at him and then he ran off stage and threw up.
>> Rock up.
>> It was He literally bolted and then they did another song and then the guy came back out on stage and did a different song uh with them. He was like, "Give it up for him cuz he like he went on there.
He just hurled. He just got too into the moment. He just he hurled. That would have been I'm not I don't want any of these kids to throw up, but it would have been something. Uh instead, they wrestled seven minutes. I got I went through the previous matches. So, a wrestle palooi, you know, that intergender main event tag match was half an hour long.
>> The elimination chamber match was 15 minutes long.
>> Yeah.
>> This was this was 7 8 minutes.
>> Yeah. The culmination, they did some stuff and then one of them won. They didn't have enough time to tell the stories. Um, but the story they focused on was referee Jessica Carr. She's getting in the way of Lynch. Lynch shoves her. Becky tries to expose the turnbuckle. Carr tries to stop her. She gets sandwiched in between Lynch and Lee. That allows Lynch to ram AJ's head onto the exposed turnbuckle, hit a manhandle slam, and just get the win.
And you came up with such a better finish for this to actually build some drama and some story in here, which is that Jessica Carr counts one, counts two, looks up, sees the exposed turnbuckle and points, and that stops the three count, and you can do more with Becky and Jessica before you then get into some near falls and some drama before Becky then does win.
>> Yeah, great Becky facials looking back and forth between Jessica and the exposed turnbuckle. No, no, >> I didn't. I was not me. Not me. I didn't do that. That was her. That was It was her. It was him in the crowd.
>> Yeah. Screw. I've been I'm being screwed again.
>> Yeah. But no.
>> Well, we got to get to a Snickers break or something.
>> Yeah. We need to watch the latest clip of Hulk Hogan and that guy with the beard.
>> Yeah.
>> That it didn't feel like there was enough in this for the feud to end. AJ Lee said that she she'll be back, but I don't it doesn't feel like she'll be back for this feud.
>> No, I don't think you're coming back for I think this is it done now. This is the end of Becky versus AJ. In fair, >> a rubbish return >> in fairness to them. They did stop doing this story three weeks ago.
>> Um then there's like I don't know 20 minutes of nothing. Seth Rollins comes out. Gunther comes out. Seth Rollins has got a weird jacket that's >> someone called it a vaping jacket.
>> Well, it's a it's literally a smoking jacket.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh smoke was coming out of it. Yeah.
Black contact lenses. Like okay. Yeah.
Blah blah blah. Michael Cole's like it's Game of Thrones. Like Michael, that was 10 years ago.
>> And they get in the ring and oh my god, Wrestlemania began. It really did feel like these two lads were in gorilla was like, "We need to go out there and start hot because we, you know, when it was with um Techler and Jamie hater at Dynasty was like, "Okay, this crowd are probably not going to be hot for this match because we've just had the casino gauntlet. We need to go out there and really like fight at each other to get to make sure that we got them whipped up." These two lads did the exact same thing here. It was just boom, let's just get started. Let's just start battering each other. Let's not waste any time here. And it did actually make the four of us in this room sit up and be like, "Oh, hello. Wrestlemania's here.
>> Felt like the first actual match with with intensity in it. Uh so Gunther shotgun dropkick right at the start before the bell. They brawl around the ring. It it feels violent. This is good stuff. And then they they find themselves on opposite sides of the ring and they're looking at each other and they're both like, "Okay, let's do this." And they stand up. The crowd is sufficiently heated now. and they get in the ring, bell rings, and then they just it's just them trying to prove who the better wrestler is. That's the simplicity of this story. They battle over the pedigree. Seth hits a pedigree and a stomp. Um Gunther locks in the sleeper, but Seth hits a superplex falcon arrow immediately into the sleeper on >> Gunther. Really good.
>> Gunther tapped out to that last Mania.
It felt really dramatic.
>> It's also It's how he put out Did he tap out Goldberg? No, I think he pinned Goldberg, but he tapped out Cena. tapped out AJ.
>> Seth dives to the outside. Gunther catches him into a power bomb on the apron and then a power bomb on the commentary table break.
>> Feels like we're about to get into a really hot final five minutes here >> and then they're on the announce table.
It's reversed into a pedigree, then a stomp, and then out of nowhere, Bron Breaker spears Seth. Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, okay. Cool. Cool. Bronze here."
>> And then threw him back into the ring and and tapped him out.
>> Well, I did. Please tap or he passed out. Passed out. Yeah, >> that's what I mean. Like you tap down.
>> So 15 minutes. But again, the story is this was one of the few things that was starting that was good from the start.
It it was into its third act. It had maybe one two minutes left, >> but there it is.
>> No, no proper near falls, no drama.
>> Just get to the finish. And it did feel like every match had time cut from it from the stories that they wanted to tell. And it was, you know, this was a the definition of heatless banger and it was good and I and I very much enjoyed it.
>> I I will probably never watch it again, but it was the best thing on this show.
>> This was by far the best thing on this show and it was really in the grand scheme of things not as good as anything on AW Dynasty or Dynamite.
>> Could you go as far as to say it was the only good thing on this show matchwise?
I would.
>> Yeah, probably. Probably.
>> Um, also after all of this, Brun just appeared.
No mask, no appearing from the the barricade.
>> If they had done the mask thing, people would have made fun of it. So, don't do the mask thing. I I I think that's a that's probably a smart thing to do.
They came down. I'm baffled that we didn't just do Rollins and Breaker at WrestleMania. I am staggered. He was fine. He was cleared. We just didn't do it. I think that is insane.
>> Yeah, Brun at the at the end of the match, he went up the ramp and then he hit a running 75 yard sprint, which is he was going so fast cuz there's a bit of an in decline there as well. So, he picked up gravity steam.
>> Probably went a bit too fast.
>> And then he he hits a spear. We've seen so many good spears like that on Carito on I Show Speed, but he just sort of did one of those Bobby Lashley tumbling tummy taps.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Jay Uso was backstage giving him some pointers on how to hit spears.
>> Want to lay that in a bit, brother. Snug that up. But Paul Heyaymon was at the top and yeah, he was like, "Finally, I've got one of my boys back."
>> Uh they did the Hall of Fame class. AJ Styles came out and then the real star Stephanie McMahon came out.
>> Uh we had a recap of CM Punk's career where he was in Ring of Honor. He did this, he did that, and then he left WWE in 2014 >> and then nothing else happened >> and then he returned in 2023.
Then we got Oh man, >> that's my >> Stephanie Ver versus Liv Morgan for the women's world championship.
>> This entrance was so great in how terrible it was.
>> You just asked me was Gunther and Seth the only good thing on this show.
>> No, it had this >> wrestling wise. Yeah, but if you do the whole night it was this. It was it was this entrance. Top this Roman and punk.
>> I was half a beat off from my as I was lip-syncing to my backing track of a song that if you told me it was AI generated, I would believe you.
>> Livyncing or Lip Morgan. I don't know which one's better. Probably Liv Syncing. Livink >> because it sounds like >> Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
>> She's she's drowning.
>> When they took the suit off of her, but it didn't quite tear away. So they were just yanking her all over the show.
Hilarious.
>> Yeah. So it started with everyone's favorite hit single, Trouble, the music video that you can see on MTV Bass. And then uh it it sort of dissolved into and I can watch it here in front of the entire crowd. They're doing the little the little chair Britney dance routine.
>> Someone said on the Raw podcast, "Why would you release this music video a week before WrestleMania, not debut it at Wrestlemania?" And I said, "So she can do it as her entrance at Wrestlemania." Like that's quite clear why they've done it. This is all this is for. She probably won the Royal Rumble just so they could do an entrance like do the a music video for her.
>> Yeah, cuz Emanuel's like she's a music star.
>> She's a music star. She's a movie star because she's going to be in Bad Lieutenant. Everyone's going to be going to see that when it comes out.
>> Uh so yeah, her lipsyncing was one or two beats off and she gets down to the ring. It's all laughable. They This was another thing about just the presentation. Alicia Taylor starts to do the ring introductions. I was like, "Oh, oh, yeah.
None of the other matches have felt remotely special."
>> No. Well, yeah, it's world title matches. You do the the big ring intro, >> but there are other title matches.
>> Yeah, but you don't But if you doesn't make him feel quite as special if you do it all the time. For me, it's and I said this on the prediction show. When you do this music video thing, which we totally saw coming as being her entrance, it was going to completely undermine all of the supposed heated rivalry without the hockey that these two apparently had for each other. Cuz on Raw, they had this wild pull apart brawl where Livborg is tearing her hair up being like, I just want to get you. And Livborg and Stephanie Ver's like, your mom's a [ __ ] And they were like desperately trying to get to each other. And here it's travel.
That's me. I'm gonna stand in the corner while uh we do these ring introductions.
Ollie's getting into his chair, Jerps and my FT, whatever the lyric is.
Um and then it doesn't feel then like the hot feud that they kept trying to tell me it was on TV. Hang on. Ollie's getting ready to do he's getting another chair everyone for audio listeners so we can >> I can't even see this chair. Should I shall I just sit like this for the rest of the podcast?
>> Oh no.
>> Okay. Well, c can you just slightly tilt?
>> I don't know if I can.
>> Look. Look. Here it is. If you watch the video, I'm now sitting Britney style.
>> No, you've done the Captain America. So, like put the chair >> in honor of Liv's trouble. Uh the match started like I it started decent because they went pretty quickly into the big moves.
>> Well, they didn't have time to do anything else.
>> But it's like is this because they're rushing or is it because they're trying to do that the big matches are finally here and they're going right out the gate just like Gunther and Seth did. So we got Devil's Kiss early. Oh, okay.
Cool. The Kur just hit Liv's oblivion.
We're like 3 4 minutes in. And then Rock Sands on the the apron distracting the referee. Raquel pushes Stephanie off the top turnbuckle.
>> We And then she hit the oblivion. We legit thought that was going to be the finish to the match.
>> But no, they brawl outside a bit. They get back in and then Liv hits an oblivion and oh no, that was it.
>> Yeah.
>> 6 minutes 50 seconds.
>> When they did that near and we like after the the judgment day interference, the inevitable judgment day interference, we were like, "Oh man, this feels like they might just go to the finish here." And then when it wasn't, it's like, "Oh, right. Of course, of course that wasn't the finish. We would have been in this match for 5 minutes. There's clearly going to be another five. But we we've just hit the halfway point. No, it was the next spot. They've just hit another one of them and won.
>> And again, >> may as well have been the finish.
>> You you go and you watch other Judgment Day like the Great Judgment Day matches, they use the obvious interference uh to to set up the more surprising other interference. So, when Raquel and Roxan were getting involved, I was like, "Oh, okay." Because they'll be taken out.
Then all of a sudden, Dirty Dom comes in. And it's Dirty Dom who cost Stephanie the victory.
>> Nope.
>> Nope. Nope. Nope. Just >> that would have been dramatic.
>> The longest transitional reign for a champion we've had in quite some time.
Stephanie Vakar won this belt because Naomi was pregnant and she only held it because we were waiting for Liv to win at WrestleMania after she released her terrible song.
>> Uh yeah. So, bit of dispute on the timing of this match. I had it at 6 minutes 50. Cage Match has it at 6 minutes 50. You said Wikipedia has it at 9:00.
>> It feels like it keeps getting changed.
So last night when we looked it was at 6:50. Then I refreshed it before the end of the night and someone had changed it to 9. Then when you checked it this morning it was back to 650. And when I refreshed it before you recorded it, it was back to 9. It feels like there are two wrestling fans who are arguing with each other about how long the match was.
Uh >> apparently there was also some Wikipedia shenanigans last night. Did you read?
No. Uh Pat Magafi was his official name on Wikipedia for a stint.
>> That's great.
>> As was Becky Hogan.
>> Poor old Becky, man.
>> That that stuff I I don't actually agree with. But yeah, that was the shortest women's singles match in a decade at WrestleMania.
>> It was a match of quality that befitted the story that went in. Not great at all. Uh and then John Cena came out to announce the attendance uh which apparently was like not that far off what Wrestle Tick said the the attendance was.
>> So 50,816 down 10,000 from the night one the previous year and then Bianca Belair's music hits like what's happening here? I just thought oh no we're getting an impromptu match.
>> I didn't think impromptu match. Mine was I was like oh she's going to announce that she's back or she's going to announce her, you know, her return to the ring. But then we were like, "Why wouldn't you have done this after the Jade match?"
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, I will say the live chat immediately all said, "Ah, she's pregnant."
>> And like, we didn't say on stream because you it's you don't want to sort of speculate on those sorts of things, but she did have a pregnant glow about her.
>> I know nothing. I know nothing. I did not pick up on that until she even when she opened her thing, I was like, >> "Oh, she's lost her abs. What's going on?
Is she okay?
And then yeah, she revealed very heartwarmingly that she's pregnant with uh I assume Montes Ford's kid. That wasn't that wasn't announced.
>> Um and then John Cena, the the number fudging here said, "Well, that means it's 50,817 people because now we count kids who aren't born."
>> Yeah, this was a lovely moment. And I thought Cena's little comedy bit at the end was very nice. I mean, I this was very nice.
>> Was it worth uh fans paying $30,000 for front row tickets? Probably not. But it was it was a very nice moment. But >> when you think of the moments of this show, it's Paige coming back and then, you know, then it's this.
>> Mhm.
>> And then maybe maybe another moment from this night. I guess the punt.
>> Yeah, >> I thought it was a one out of five show.
I gave it one out of five. I thought really really disappointing.
>> Yeah, not a good night of Wrestlemania.
>> I think night two will be better. I just I I just feel it in my bones. It will be better. I think they were going to go out there. They will have seen the online reaction to night one and they'll want to go out there and make sure that night two does leave you with a good taste within your mouth and you won't think that it was a bad show. We the Patreon feedback. We got so much Patreon feedback. So, we got quite a few comments, but we'll uh we'll go through these because it's I know I would say everyone was pretty down on the show, I would say, but there was a few people who actually quite enjoyed it. Pat the Booker here. Every match seemed like it was just in gear three. It ended abruptly and needed another 5 to 10 minutes. Griffin mine, I absolutely loved the main event. I felt Cody finally letting his dark side out and going full heel was a great story.
However, the postmatch really confused me and now I don't know where they're going.
>> Well, f you say finally letting his dark side out. I've seen this like three times against Kevin Owens, against John Cena.
>> He hit Drew McInty hit the crossroads on Drew McIntyre to retain the title at Wrestle Palooa. That was in September.
Muhammad, overall a fine night one. Not great, not bad, just fine. My main complaint is the short matches. Every single match felt like it needed another five minutes.
>> Yeah.
>> Ezra Mitchell, Seth versus Gunther and Ped return gave me rosecolored glasses that kind of made me feel like the show was better than than it was until I finally thought about it as a whole.
Overall, four out of 10.
>> We should probably add Breaker.
Breaker's return as a moment. Ryan just soulless seemingly uh seemingly from beginning to end. Hulk Hogan getting the most screen time of any wrestler during the whole show. Abrupt match finishes throughout the show and spots being repeated across the card. Pat McAfee payoff was poor in a main event with more turns than I can count. My 16th Wrestlemania watching live and understand recency bias may be a thing, but right now feels like the worst overall show, let alone a Wrestlemania I've watched live. Uh, I'd say it's up there with um I mean night night one and night two last year were were pretty average overall.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, but you had real big highs.
>> You had a great main event to end off night one last year >> and a great opener to start night two.
Th this is in the sort of as a night.
This is in the sort of Wrestlemania 27.
>> Yeah.
>> Badness for me. Matt, the fact they keep highlighting the word polarizing all night was definitely not by accident.
>> Monty Pitman, I'm not mad at Wrestlemania. I'm just disappointed. It was like they got their money. It's like we got their money now, so go half speed so we can get get more of it for four weeks. Dead Badger, it made me sad.
Corporate entitification at its finest.
What? 90 minutes of matches. One video promo. I thought these live events were supposed to be premium.
>> Yeah, >> Wyatt's ready. It felt like I was watching a Saturday night's main event where nothing mattered with a couple of cool moments, but 90 minutes of wrestling on a 4-hour show is inexcusable. Tiff Tifa S. I've seen bad mania. I've seen mania that have been brought down by one or two matches, but I never thought I'd see a mania the company itself just did not care about.
>> Canal de Jod, not the worst mania I've watched, but definitely the most boring, especially with little actual wrestling in it. I think that's where I'm at as well. I didn't think it is bad. Mostly it was just boring. Yeah. Yeah. Boring and and TV quality matches because they didn't get enough time >> and not one to watch live. Sage, I don't see myself going back to ever watch any of these matches. So, it cannot be a good Wrestlemania. All the almost all of the right winners Cody should have lost, but zero time to tell any stories. But hey, at least Paige is back. The Devand Dumb stuff. I'm usually the one to see the best in a show. I don't like focusing on the down spots as a benefit to the actual wrestlers and the wrestling on the show. Unfortunately, this genuinely feels like a culmination of every bad tendency that WWE has built up over the past year or so. More ads than wrestling, short matches, women being particularly shafted. Any match that did have any hype or build was a massive letdown. Whether you want to blame Triple H or TKO, nobody can deny the downward spiral in quality. Here's hoping night two is better, but it's not looking good.
>> James Stevenson, from the perspective of someone in the building, I enjoyed the show. Nothing blowing me away, but nothing overly offensive. The women's world title match and the unsanctioned match could have had more time, but the main event was a confusing cluster, but I had a good time. Looking forward to night two.
>> Well, you you know, if you if you have a few bever, it's a it's a fun experience.
>> Malcolm, as someone who was there in attendance, the matches felt longer than they were. That being said, Cody and Randy confused everyone. We didn't know how to react, and honestly, they turned the wrong guy. Harry Burke, I'll say what I said during the live stream. Four letters, one word. Uh-uh. Dull.
Frank, if there is one thing that this show taught us is that WWE's overconfidence of assuming their core base will ride or die forever will be their long-term undoing. Too many ads.
The crowd doesn't have the energy for old, probably due to the price point, and they have forgotten the theater of wrestling matches telling stories. The whole show felt like scrolling through an Instagram feed. Four out of 10 at best. And I really want to like it.
>> Wow, that's a that's a very uh evocative metaphor, I Yeah, >> actually an otter. I liked the Hulk Head documentary, but ending it with a Cody versus Randy match was a really odd editing choice.
>> RKO Warrior, very longtime listener and Patreon backer. I've always envisioned my first message contributing to be an amazing masterpiece. So, here goes.
Wrestlemania 42 was a pile of [ __ ] Uh, PH7, this was a weird experience. While none of the matches were worked badly, I will almost never I will almost likely have forgotten about all of them by Monday. The best match by far was Seth versus Gunther. And even then, it won't be in the top 50 of either of their cataloges. And even though the main event was memorable, it's not because it was good, but rather because it was so weird. Hoping night 2 will be better.
Uh, Becca B, Wrestlemania 42, Night One was the Ant-Man and the Wasp of Wrestlemania.
Oh, but at least there's something there. Like, it's not it's not bad.
>> And lastly, Mark Robinson. I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed with myself. The fact I thought WWE could create a good show after a poor build was misguided. I think I'm done with TKO WWE. I'll watch Wrestle Talk to keep you updated, but for my weekly American Sumption, I'll be moving on to AEW. I can't sacrifice any more of my time watching a show full of commercials with a matches sprinkled in between. An insult of a show.
>> Very fair opinion, I think. Uh, >> I can't wait to see you at night, too, >> Mark Robertson.
Well, that's all we've got time for today. Uh, please go over to patreon.comwrestle talk where you can use the code rampat for 50% off your first month.
>> This is not a joke, by the way. This is an actual promo code. We thought it would be funny to do it as Ram Pat.
>> Um, and yeah, that means you can exclusively watch us on Patreon this evening with Dan and maybe Kieran again.
We don't know.
>> Kieran said he's probably going to come.
>> Oh, yeah. We'll be back.
>> Yeah. and we'll watch Wrestlemania Night 2, which I, you know, it's got to, it's got to be better, right?
>> You look at all that Patreon feedback we got, pretty much every one of them ended off with, I'm hoping night two will be better. And I think in all of us, we all do firmly believe night two is going to be so much better. We're going to be sat here tomorrow reviewing that on the podcast and be like, two was so much better than night one.
>> And then we'll all forget about night one.
>> What a mania 42 was.
>> Um, and also go over to the Kickstarter link. It is in the description wherever you're listening to this. And please support us there and order your copy of 2001, the death and rebirth of wrestling. But for now, I've been Olly Davis. This has been Luca and Dad. Jam that jam. Jana jam.
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