The Man Who Broke Rome: Caesar's Rise and Assassination | David Potter

Ajouté : 2026-05-11

[00:00:00][Music] Hello everyone. My name is Harrison Mark with WHE. Um, and thank you for joining us for this uh what promises to be a great interview. Um, I'm joined today by Professor David Potter. Uh, he is the Francis W. Kelsey Collegiate Professor of Greek and Roman History and the Arthur F. Though Professor, Professor of Greek and Latin and Ancient History at the University of Michigan. Um he's also the author of a book of many books but specifically one coming out in August 2025 uh entitled Master of Rome the life of Julius Caesar. Um so today we are going to have a lovely discussion about Julius Caesar. Um Professor Potter, welcome to the show.

[00:00:46]>> Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:49]>> Now for someone who has lived and died uh 2,000 years ago, Julius Caesar, everybody knows his name. Most people know he was assassinated, that he was the dictator of Rome, um, and probably a few other details. But why why write a book about him? Why why should we still care all this time after all this time?

[00:01:08]>> Well, there are reasons both uh good and rather terrifying uh for us to think about Caesar. um on the good side, shall we say, uh if we can watch how he built an organization, how he managed it, um how he considered ways to move forward, um the way he defined his campaigns in Gaul, uh we can see one of the most effective generals in the history uh history of the world.

[00:01:45]uh we can see what made him tick. He's not some sort of mythical figure uh as in a way Alexander the Great is. Our sources for Alexander of course all written well after his death whereas with Caesar we have his own works. We can get inside his head and see what's going on. Um so you know as somebody to learn from uh about how to organize, how to build an organization, maintain an organization um and if I may say um how not to foul up military operations, a man who understood the way that politics and war go hand in hand. Um there's a lot there. The negative side is he destroyed a democratic state.

[00:02:32]Uh so it raises a question for us of how democracy fails, what opens the door for a person like Caesar. Um and how he then exploits the weaknesses that he can see in the system in which he grew up um which he was very effective at doing.

[00:02:54]Now, we've already talked at length about uh the early life of Caesar, which if you're interested in that, you can watch over on our membership or our Patreon. Um, but of course uh the sit uh the situation in which he grew up was very profoundly influential to his life as it is for all of us. I wonder if you could talk a bit about the political situation in which Caesar was born and grew up in and um maybe a little bit about his early life as well.

[00:03:25]>> Well, I suppose that the best way of thinking about Caesar's uh early life is with a line of Sir Ronald Sims from the Roman Revolution. Solah could not abolish his own example. Um, Sullah decided that he would reform and purify uh the Roman state uh to create a constitution that would work in his view uh and to eliminate people he thought were uh dangerous. Uh so the mass murders of the Sullen regime uh both in the aristocracy uh and by throwing tens and tens of thousands of people off their land so he could settle his veterans. The violence of his settlement was something that would not go away. Uh the resentments uh of Solo's behavior uh would inform Roman political society. Uh but then again also those who benefited from it.

[00:04:27]So you had really divided the state between what the halves and the have nots. uh and what Caesar would do uh as his career developed was take the side of the have nots. Um this is something that again his biographers you know showed you that he would be uh sympathetic um to those uh who had been were victims of the sen system. And um the other thing that SOA did um was he weakened uh the offices of the consils uh who would remain in Rome all year so that um there developed a need for long-term military commands filled by special laws. This isn't something that Sila I think had ever thought was going to happen. Uh but it happened very quickly after his death uh with the wars with Mithrates of Pontis.

[00:05:28]Uh the initial great command was given to Sullah's close associate Lucilus and then uh big long-term commands were given to another associate of Solenus Pompy. uh and these provided the model for the command that Caesar invented for himself uh in Gaul uh where he had an army for 10 years. That's not supposed to happen in the Roman constitution.

[00:05:53]That wasn't what's supposed to happen according to Sullah. But Solo was too uh shall we say ideological um no he was such an arrogant jerk uh that he thought he'd solved all of Rome's problems and didn't foresee that he'd actually created a situation uh where you could build organizations that were actually more powerful than the Roman state.

[00:06:18]>> Do you think that um Caesar consciously um followed Sullah's example? Do you think this was something that he um noticed and picked up on later in his own career or do you think it just happened to play out that way?

[00:06:31]>> I think that Caesar had looked at how Solah organized things when Sullah invaded Italy uh in the late 80s. He had more money than the Roman state had because he had backing him up the plunder that he had taken in the war with Mithrates, a vast payment from Mithrates to end the war and then a huge fine that he'd imposed on the cities of Asia. So he had this huge supply of money. The first thing that Caesar saw is how do you build a financial system uh that will support a powerful army? Um and then how do you put that army together? uh in his case he could also watch the example of Nais Pompy. Um but how do you build a you know a political system around yourself? Um one of the things that Solah had were a number of uh you know close associates who he could count on. Uh Caesar develops a staff of uh of people who he will count on um to carry out his intentions. Uh Caesar builds an army that is whose loyalty is going to be to him. Uh the same way that Solo's army was loyal to Solah. Uh but to keep an army uh and for yourself, you need to be able to pay it.

[00:07:52]Uh and what Caesar realized is Solah used the resources of the provinces to pay his army.

[00:08:00]What we can see in Gaul again indirectly is that Caesar is using the wealth of Gaul to conquer Gaul. Uh as Caesar's army expands, there's no indication of any increase in minting by the Roman state. Uh and many of the legions that Caesar raised, he had to pay from provincial resources.

[00:08:22]So when we get to the end of his campaign in Gaul, uh we realize he started with four legions. Uh he'd rapidly raised that to six legions. He then increased that to eight legions. Uh by the time uh he got across the Rubikan, he has 13 legions.

[00:08:42]Uh which is certainly a much greater army than is controlled by Naas Pompy or by the Roman state.

[00:08:51]And uh what was young Caesar's um relationship to Cella? Um >> uh Caesar's relationship to Sullah was very much obscured by the biographical tradition uh which wanted to stress the fact that Caesar was a a victim of Sila, not a friend of Silah. So there stories were made up about how Silah tried to kill him and how Sah finally gave way to pressure from the vestal virgins and Caesar's relatives. uh but said remember that uh there are many marases in that man uh and he will destroy our cause um and it's your fault because you suggested I save him. Well, Solo would never have spared anybody on anybody's uh suggestion. Uh and Caesar's first jobs uh were all with Solah's close lieutenants. So it doesn't look like Solah had too big a problem with Caesar if he allows him to launch his career with his own officers. Um but at the same time you know Caesar's okay how did we get here?

[00:09:58]What brought us to this?

[00:10:01]What can we do if how do we develop an independent position for ourself? Now Sullah had developed a very clear persona for himself. You know, he was going to restore the ancient virtues of the Roman people. What is Caesar going to do? He's going to restore the welfare of the victims of Solah.

[00:10:22]A very clear message.

[00:10:26]Now, uh in Caesar's early life, um if we could quickly maybe fill in the gaps for people who might not be aware, what did his career progression look like? um let's say from when he first started getting involved in public office um until maybe uh around uh the time when he became console. What was in between that?

[00:10:49]>> Okay. Well, um his first appointments like were provincial appointments uh serving in the province of Asia. Uh which is interesting because that's likely to be where his uh family made the enormous fortune it control. Um he made friends with the king of Bethnia um and inherited some more money from him.

[00:11:10]Uh later acted as an advocate for the people of Bethnia uh and was later accused of having had a physical relationship with the king of Bethnia.

[00:11:19]Um which he resented the story he resented enormously. Uh and he had actually lost his temper when people kept saying uh that the king of Bethnia had had sex with him. Um but then uh he prosecuted some uh corrupt officials of Solah which is I guess standard way of sort of establishing a reputation. Um went to graduate school in rhetoric at the island of roads. Um at which point he claims that he was captured by pirates.

[00:11:53]Uh, and there's an elaborate sort of fantasy story about Caesar and the pirates and how the first thing he they said, "Well, we want 20 talents for ransom for you." Caesar said, "What do you mean? I'm worth 50." Um, and my people will gather it, and you're going to sit here and listen to my speeches and my poetry, and the pirates are dominated by the personality of Caesar.

[00:12:15]Uh, and then when Caesar uh is released, he raises a fleet and captures the pirates. Uh and then as he told them he was going to execute them, he did. But because he's he instead of having them die through crucifixion, uh he does crucify them, but first he slit their throat so they wouldn't suffer the pain of crucifixion. Um so he's both merciful uh at this point and uh deadly effective and a dominating personality uh which is everything that you would see of Caesar later in his life. What gets very interesting though is that in the late 70s his first office was uh as a military tribune. He must have served under Crasus in the war with Spartacus.

[00:13:00]Never mentions it. It's not in the tradition anywhere. There's a gap.

[00:13:04]Caesar was elected military tribune in this year.

[00:13:09]We don't want to remember the war with Spartacus. It was defin death defin death defin death defin death defin death defin death defin death defin death defin death defin death definitely embarrassing uh and the mass murders that uh committed again were very emar you know embarrassing horrific Caesar wanted to make sure that nobody thought it had anything to do with it and the story that he slit the throats of the pirates um I think is a commentary on crisis's behavior but right after the war with Spartacus all of a sudden now he'd been started supporting measures to restore the rights of the children of people who'd been prescribed by solo prescribed means your name was added to a list and you were automatically sentenced to death if you were there and your property was confiscated and your children could not hold public office. Um Caesar starts giving speeches in favor of measures to restore the rights of the uh children of the prescribed um starts now stressing all of a sudden that he is the nephew of gas Marius. So in the early 60s now we are an opposition politician with a clear message that we're going to undo the evils of what Solah had done which is a powerful message if we think about the Spartacus revolt um who were there.

[00:14:25]Okay, Spartacus was a gladiator. Yes. Um but gladiators don't can train you how how to fight with a sword uh or a trident. They can't however train you to fight in formation as a Roman army.

[00:14:39]But that's what Spartacus' army was. It was a Roman army um that was able to stand up to uh Roman armies led by Roman magistrates.

[00:14:50]So who are these people? They're not gladiators. They're not slaves. I think they're the victims of Silah. They're people who had military training before.

[00:14:59]That's what made the and so it's seeing the strength of opposition of the damage that Solah had done after the Spartacus revolt is over. Caesar becomes a stronger and stronger supporter of undoing the Sullen system. um whose damage is visible everywhere. And when he becomes Edile, now this is a a office where you have to basically manage the city of Rome, make sure that people aren't cheating each other in the markets. Uh you also have to put on some games. You're responsible for public building. Well, uh Caesar Aidal, he's going to make a splash. He is really rich. Um, so, um, first of all, he's going to put on the best gladiatorial show anybody's ever put on, which is interesting because here we're five years after the revolt of Spartacus and all of a sudden Caesar has 320 pairs of gladiators. You know, if the Roman state was really scared of gladiators, you wouldn't be seeing that. And we see the classic what will become the classic Caesar maneuver. Either he puts on 320 pairs of gladiators and everybody remembers the best gladiatorial show ever or his enemies prevent them from him from doing this at which case people remember that Caesar wanted to put on the best gladiatorial show ever and this sullen system has shut him down. He was prevented from putting on the display but certainly everybody remembers it and his gladiators he rents out to other people who want to put on shows. um they live down around the Bay of Naples, etc. Um the other thing he did was Marius um had erected trophies in honor of his military victories at the end of the second century, all of which were destroyed by Sullah.

[00:16:47]Caesar restores them. So here he is. He wants to do good things for the, you know, put on great shows for the people.

[00:16:54]He's restoring the memory of gas Marius.

[00:16:57]uh and at this point he is a really noticeable figure on the Roman political scene as I sort of and the other thing he'd done was he supported special commands from Nais Pompy now against pirates against Mithrates uh so again he's sort of seeing you know what does he want for himself well we've established that special commands are things that can be brought can be created uh we've established we're a friend of the Roman people where do we go from here.

[00:17:28]Um, and it's fascinating that it probably it's the beginning of the year 63. Um, long before Catalines's conspiracy had become a real thing, uh, the Pontifffects Maximus had died, the head priest. Now Caesar, because he had friends in high places, had been a member of the College of the Pontificates since he was a young man.

[00:17:50]But now he's going to run to be Pontifax Maximus against two of the most senior members of the Senate.

[00:17:57]and he wins. So by the beginning of 63, it's clear that he is one of the most potent forces in Roman politics and he'll be elected uh preer for the next year. He'll be able to govern a province. Um he's set up >> um for the um position when he runs for pon pontifix maximus. Um, wasn't there some story or something? Uh, I could be totally wrong about this, but where he tells his mom or his wife or someone like, "If I don't win, then I'm done.

[00:18:31]I'm out of politics." Or something.

[00:18:33]>> Absolutely. It's um, one of the stories that again, people who didn't like Caesar are saying that he's always hopelessly in debt. Debt is bad. You know, he's dependent on somebody else.

[00:18:46]Uh, he's not his own man. Um, and yeah, the story is he says to Aurelia, "Uh, I'm done. if I don't come back. Well, that's a ridiculous story because you're not going to get any money for being part of XM Maximus. You'll get money if you're elected preer and go off and govern a province. Um, but no, I mean, I think uh he's spent a lot of money as eile and so if you don't like him, you say, "Oh, well, let's look at him. He's a he's going to be hopelessly in debt."

[00:19:15]Doesn't really work that way.

[00:19:17]Um, >> and I think stories like that, stories, uh, like the one about the pirates, um, they're very interesting, especially in this, um, sort of time of Caesar's life in sort of gleaning or trying to glean what type of man he was, what his personality was like. Um, of course, this is a very difficult thing to do uh, with so much sifting through all the propaganda, sifting through all the mythology, as well as 2,000 years in between us. But I was wondering um I think this is a good time to talk about what your thoughts are about Caesar's personality. Clearly this is an ambitious man, a cunning politician. Um but I wonder I wonder what what else you you have come across in that regard.

[00:19:58]>> Well, as I you see two people in a way in Caesar.

[00:20:04]Um the Caesar the manager is a top-down uh person uh at several points he says the job of the legative is to do what the general told him to do. The job of the people who work for me is to do what I told them to do. Uh when he wins the civil war and becomes dictator he makes it very clear this is what we're going to do. I am Caesar. I have decided it.

[00:20:30]You get this is a very autocratic administrative style.

[00:20:35]The other side that we see of Caesar is somebody who's willing to admit that he needs to change course. And as we read through the Gallup wars, we'll see, you know, um, first of all, we see he's very interested in logistics. The first thing he always says, having gathered the grain, you know, so one, you know, if you take a GIC wars apart, you know, you have these sort of vignettes where Caesar is destroying thousands of Gauls or, you know, doing various things. But you know in between you have these lines of how you run an army. I gathered this uh I gather all the supplies. This is going to be delivered here. I know the men can eat. Number two uh we have a plan of campaign. But we learned from from deserters and prisoners that the enemy are doing something else. So we're going to shift course now uh to take advantage of it. um we have got to create uh a political system uh which is accountable to himself. uh but we see him organizing gic states and the critical thing again you know that we think if you want to conquer Gaul um or you want to do anything else you have to be able to create a viable political system and Caesar is doing this now again um the autocrat now you're goal given a job by Caesar you can do what Caesar tells you to do uh but he's talking to people to try to figure out who he can trust even at the height of his power after the civil war. We get a sense that he realized that things weren't going quite right. You know that okay he didn't have a vision for a system that Augustus uh would create later largely I think because he saw why Caesar had failed uh where there would be a certain amount of power sharing in the Augustine regime.

[00:22:25]Um, you know, everybody knows his great subordinate is Marcus Agria and a grippa is a great in and you could be a gripper too someday.

[00:22:35]Caesar there's no agria anywhere. Um, and so uh you know Caesar says the following people can be cons. They're going to do what I say. Um, and Augustus is is more careful about it than that. Uh but at fascinating moment Caesar wrote to Cicero and said um could you produce a book uh advising me on how to run the state? Uh here are some works that you can uh use to do this. Uh they happen to be books of advice uh given to Alexander the Great. So what that's telling us is again that Caesar wants Cicero to be a propagandist for a top- down dictatorship.

[00:23:18]Cisero can't produce the book. And Caesar says, you know, I understand that. Um that that's not quite this is a difficult thing to to to figure out. Um and so you sense that Caesar is in a way at the end of his life a prisoner of what it was that made him Caesar in the first place.

[00:23:44]I I want to talk a bit about the uh the triumvirate with Pompei and Crassus. Of course, a lot most people will have heard of this. Um but I wonder if you could go into the details. What kind of arrangement was this? When did it come about? Um who in the beginning, who are the senior and junior partners, that sort of thing.

[00:24:02]>> The triumpvirate is a fascinating sort of again subject of mythology.

[00:24:08]Um the one version of it that you know we get um in later historians is that in the summer of 60 when Caesar was running for the consil ship of 59 he made an arrangement with Pompy and Cassus. They swore oaths to support each other uh and they guaranteed his election. Um well actually the people who seem to have spent more on the election were Caesar's enemies. They knew they couldn't beat him, but they managed to get Marcus Bibilus elected as his co-consul. They hated each other's guts.

[00:24:40]They had been eats together. They had hated each other then. But the sort of third man out was a man named Lucas who Caesar was running with. So, you know, if there were this was all powerful in 60, it wouldn't have been the consil ship of Caesar and Bibilus.

[00:24:55]Um, but uh Pompy had returned from the east. uh his campaigns against Mithrates, he'd organized uh the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire and he had an army that needed to be paid off. The Roman Senate had accepted his creation of the province of Syria, but it had not granted the uh retirement bonuses for his troops. uh that was held up um the recognition of the client kings, the friendly kings he'd put in place uh all of whom borrowed lots and lots of money from him that too hadn't been confirmed. So you know here is Pompy and people his enemies sort of are getting what they want and Pompy is being held up.

[00:25:44]Crass was representing the tax collectors of the province of Asia who uh the way that Roman taxes were collected is a corporation uh would bid on the contract for the taxes for a 5-year period. Now, they would estimate how much money would come in uh and then they would keep whatever surplus was left over. So, you can imagine that the taxes were always somewhat under bid. Um uh but in this case they'd over bid for the taxes of Asia. Um and the they were so I asked Cassus uh to say can you reduce the contract?

[00:26:22]Um and so that was held up in the Senate as well. And at one point Cicero writes uh he wished that Kato would who was leading the opposition would shut up and realize that he was living uh not in the Republic of Plato but in the cesspool of Romulus. Um but what Caesar did was he went to Pompy in Cassus and this was at the end of the year after he'd been elected console. There's a letter from Cicero saying that Caesar had approached him about joining forces with Caesar and Pompy.

[00:26:54]So that the triumvirate wasn't really laid out uh in December of 60. Come January of 59 Pompy and Cassus are on board with Caesar. Caesar said, "I will move legislation to get you what you want. Uh, and in return, it would be nice if you'd support uh, say, a five-year province for me, uh, command, say, in northern Italy and the Balkans."

[00:27:20]And uh when the Senate rejected Caesar's uh proposed bills to uh help out Pompy and Cassus, they had a public meeting in the forum where Caesar summoned Pompy and Cassus who supported Caesar's measure uh to help the help Pompy and his measure to help Cassus. Uh this was then um in a somewhat irregular way put to a vote and Pompy and Crass got what they want. Uh by March uh all of a sudden a bill had gone through uh moved by a tribune of the year um granting Caesar a five-year province in northern Italy and the Balkans. Then the critical accident, the governor of southern France died.

[00:28:14]there's no open province. Well, it added to Caesars's.

[00:28:18]Um, and so he now has what he had wanted is a military command. And what he now needed was an excuse to launch his army someplace. And it was clearly not his idea that it would be in France because in January of 58, three of the four legions were in northern Italy uh on the uh eastern edge. It looked like he wanted to head into the Balkans when all of a sudden news came of a migration from Switzerland into central France.

[00:28:55]Now, before we get into the GAC war, why was Caesar so intent on finding conquest for himself? Was this just Roman culture? Was this just uh political advancement?

[00:29:08]>> It was his understanding that this was the obvious way forward. Um, the most powerful man in Rome in 59 was Na Pompy.

[00:29:19]Why was he so powerful? Because of his success in war. He was the great. Of course, Pompy being something of a narcissist. Um liked having his Alexander the Great haircut uh and calling himself Pompeus Magnus Pompy the Great. Um the greatest Roman uh general that you'd ever seen. Um and you know, but he was a lousy domestic politician.

[00:29:41]He had very little experience in domestic politics. He wasn't a very good public speaker. Uh but he had showed that he learned from Sullah that power follows money and follows armies.

[00:29:54]And so uh Pompy was phenomenally wealthy. Craas was wealthy uh but probably not you know even though he claimed to be the richest man in Rome because he was engaging in crooked real estate deals all the time. Um the uh Pompy is I think probably a good deal wealthier than he was. Um but if you are going to become the leading man in Rome, you need money and that comes from warfare.

[00:30:25]Um and so he was going to be the new Pompy. Now the interesting thing here is his view is he and Pompy could coexist.

[00:30:35]Um Pompy's view was there's only one person who can be number one.

[00:30:45]Uh and as Caesar grows more and more powerful, the relationship with Pompy breaks apart.

[00:30:51]>> So it sounds like the triumvirate was a very um very fragile political alliance filled with jealous members uh political rivals. Do we know much about the uh the personal relationships between Pompe Caesar and Craus uh on a on you know like a personal level?

[00:31:10]>> Well, we don't know a great deal. Um most of the evidence that we have for this will come from later historians or from Cicero's letters. The Cicero is pretty clear that Pompy and Cassus uh don't like each other. Uh and in 56 um because Crass had been sort of undermining Pompy, Caesar has to, you know, basically summon everybody and cut, you know, you two are going to be consoles in 55. Okay, you're going to have your own five-year commands. Uh but by the way, you're going to give me an additional five years. Uh so this is the sort of bringing the group. It's Caesar who brings the group back together because Pompy and Crass can't get on.

[00:31:52]Um, you know, they'd been consoles together in 70. They hadn't gotten on.

[00:31:57]Uh, in 55 when they're consoles again, they don't really get on. Craas is envious of, you know, Pompy and Caesar.

[00:32:05]And so, he's going to be the great general on his own, and he's going to invade the Parthion Empire with his own army, uh, etc. So, uh, Caesar and Pompy got along a bit better. Of course, Pompy had married Caesar's daughter, Julia, who was herself a quite powerful personality. I mean, she was a a very strong person. Um, and uh was herself very popular with the people of Rome.

[00:32:35]Um, but you know, while he was married to Julia, Pompy and Caesar, you know, they were they were sort of okay together. Um, Pompy would still see himself as, of course, I am Nais Pompy.

[00:32:50]And it's nice of you to win some battles over there, Julius. Uh, but I'm the great one. Um, and it's only as the conquest of Gaul. I think that Pompy at some point always thinks someday he's going to get it wrong.

[00:33:07]And in the critical year, this is 52, the year of versed's revolt. We can see the relationship.

[00:33:15]Julia has died two years before. You can see how the relationship starts breaking up. Part of the deal was Caesar would support Naas Pompy's year of political chaos of being sole console. Pompy would then move a bill that would allow Caesar to stand for the consilship in absence at the end of his command in uh Gaul.

[00:33:36]But then all of a sudden as Caesar and you know if you look at the chronology of the year Caesar's caught up in a difficult operation uh he loses the one battle he loses uh in the campaign in Gaul outside of Jacovia and a new law passes in Rome uh which says that nobody can stand for the consil ship uh unless they show up in the city and declare their consil ship in person.

[00:34:01]Um then as Caesar pulls things back together again, Pompy amends the law to say this does not apply to Caesar. Um but that and then he marries the daughter of somebody who hates Caesar.

[00:34:16]So that you know as Caesar's career engulating that's the point at which we can say that Pompy is saying enough. I've had enough of this guy.

[00:34:29]I should sorry one other thing I should add is that Caesar had at this point advertised that his ability to get along with Pompy kept Rome safe. Uh he'd lost a legion and a half um in uh 54. Uh and he said that the situation was restored in the spring of 50 because Nas Pompy had given Caesar some soldiers.

[00:34:54]And then in uh 52 he said when Pompy had brought order to the state the Roman state um after the riots following the death of the politician murder of the politician Claius you know then Caesar could go to Gaul and suppress things. Uh but I it and this is written in books six and seven of the Goliff wars uh probably in 51 and this is advertised to the Roman people when we're working together things go right and at the same time Pompy is saying not really there's only one great one.

[00:35:32]Yeah, it's it's very interesting to me how in this era specifically of the Roman Republic, you know, the republic's fate is in the hands of these strong willed dominant personalities. Um, but getting back to Caesar and his gullic wars, uh, specifically, um, what kind of So, I I've heard I've heard it or I've read somewhere that, um, some historians said that if Caesar wasn't a general or politician, he could have been an author with how well the GA wars were written.

[00:36:02]if you could maybe talk a little bit about the uh the book itself and um what the purpose of it was and uh uh yeah >> the golic wars um it was Cicero in fact uh who had said that uh if he hadn't decided to be to rule the world Caesar could have been the greatest literary figure of his generation um the gullic wars come together in a really quite complicated way um it's Caesar as a general will write a report of what he's doing to the Senate. We have examples of these reports uh written by Cicero when he was governor in southern Turkey in 501 to 50. Um now these are all you know Cicero cicero being Cicero there's a certain amount of self-praise that's in these documents now how I have saved the world and all these people. Um but they're all in the first person.

[00:36:54]Now Caesar's golic wars famously are in the third person.

[00:36:58]Um and uh sometimes people you know well this is the way Caesar talked about himself you know hello this is Caesar speaking to you know they must have been in the first person but what it means is there content there that can't be changed later you know that for instance when Caesar reports on a battle you know you say oh I killed 50,000 people I you know there were 300,000 of them then there were 100,000 when I got done with them vastly inflated numbers um were certainly part of um when they come into the third person and I think um you know this has been argued u particularly well by Peter Weisman uh Caesar uh rewrote the reports to the Senate to be read out around Italy. Um and this was when they came into the third person.

[00:37:49]But how long were they? You're not going to read out an entire book of the Golic Wars to somebody. Uh they're going to be in shorter bits and pieces and they're going to be some great um set pieces. I mean uh Caesar's explanation of how he started uh to fight with uh Ari Vistas in 58. This is the German king who taken over north um northeastern Gaul. Uh well Caesar um you know he's he got a difficult position because he'd actually named Arius a friend of the Roman people. Uh but how is this breaking apart? Well, it breaks apart because Arius is is arrogant and stupid. You know his one great line non Tom Magnarus barbarous I'm not such an ignorant barbarian. But then he also says to Caesar in something which certainly never went in a letter to the Senate that I know that there are a number of uh your political rivals at Rome who'd love me to kill you.

[00:38:49]Um so I mean that's you know this clearly okay this is where we can see that this is written for a different audience.

[00:38:57]Um now how do they come together?

[00:39:01]um you know there's clear and again when ulus hers uh Cicero one of Caesar's uh lieutenants completes book eight of the golic wars uh he notices that there are notes very you know highly finished notes uh when he finishes the Alexandrian war he's also taking over notes that Caesar had written um because you know Caesar had intended to have this added on to whatever he'd written about the civil war. There's a wonderful the phrase in Caesar uh is always utra demonstraamus as we've said above which is a crucial phrase because what it says is he's thinking about a physical book what I wrote above is a papyrus role um and but if we trace the cross references internal cross references in Caesar work I think we can see that books one to five were given to the Roman public as a group and six and seven which describes um ends with the defeat of versedics uh but also includes a long digression uh on uh an ethnographic digression on the Gauls and the Germans you know you don't you're sorry we've been fighting the Gauls and the Germans other ethnographies of the Germans in one to five and in brief descriptions this is clearly showing that six is meant to be read with book seven as the culmination of the campaign. Uh and the cross referencing uh the longest cross reference uh is from the beginning of book five to the beginning of book one uh where Caesar is having to explain why he hates a gic a gic chieftain who he kills at the beginning of book five. But you can see why it's you know why that happens in book one. So, two parts of the GIC wars like that.

[00:41:04]>> Uh, I wonder if you could take us briefly through the uh the GAC wars themselves just to um maybe take us through some highlights of it and show the impacts it had both on uh Caesar's standing in Rome and uh perhaps even on the republic itself.

[00:41:18]>> Okay. The war began somewhat by accident.

[00:41:22]Um a the Ariistus um who was on great terms with the Romans in February of 59 when Caesar had named him friend and ally of the Roman people had badly beaten a group of people called the Eduit the very powerful um golic community um in sort of east central France. Um we don't know why this happened but certainly the somebody negotiated with um community in Switzerland what's now Switzerland the Helvishians why don't you move into Gaul and it was pretty clearly some people among the Eduans and I think we Caesar may be telling the truth when he says this was a scam organized by Dorics who he hated. Um but all of a sudden the Helvishian show up on the border of the Roman province. Caesar wasn't expecting them at all. Um because he was he was down around Rome and then he goes north at great haste. The funny thing is that Napoleon who wrote a commentary on Caesar's commentaries in his latter years. So Caesar didn't move very fast by Napoleon standards even as Caesar claimed to be moving fast by his sentence about professional jealousy in these places. Uh but he then comes up and he's got one legion uh and he says to the Helvishians, "You can't cross the river. You have to go somewhere else." And then you know we don't there's sort of a gap information gap here. How is it that the Helvishians managed to make their way through the land of the Sauani where Arius is present and there isn't a problem about this and again and there's some something a bit all of a sudden they end up uh near the border of the Roman province in central France in south central France at which point Caesar has summoned his legions from Gaul sorry from uh northern Italy which was known as Gaul on this side of the elk and raised two new legions at his own expense and takes off after the Helvishians um and has somehow arranged for some other group of the Edgeway to feed his army. So uh he then defeats um the Edgeway and all of a sudden a meeting takes place amongst the people of Gaul of Gaul who tell him that this horrible evil man named Ari Vistus is oppressing them terribly and please as they are friends and allies of the Roman people please won't he save them and so the excuse here is the Helvishians I attack because they were a threat to the Roman province and now I have to take care of Arius who's been mean to the friends and allies of the Roman people. And this is a principle of Roman diplomacy that goes back to the earliest republic that we save our friends and allies. And so he then has to write this extremely long narrative of how Ara Vistas is arrogant barbarian won't do what he says. And so this requires that Caesar annihilate him. And then another one sort of oneliner. Caesar sent the legions into winter quarters in uh the land of the Suani.

[00:44:40]what you've just occupied half of Gaul without any explanation. And um and then the next year uh we discover that the people of the Belgic Confederation are uncomfortable with having six Roman legions uh stationed along the Rine and are going to get together and try to destroy them.

[00:45:07]Uh but before that happens, a golic confederation known as the Remy find out what's going on. And so they surrender themselves into the good faith to the Roman people. Now how the Remy knew how to make what in technical terms a ditto infidum one of Caesar's legs told them exactly what to say because they use the quite proper formula. But now the friends and allies of the Roman people who put themselves into the good faith of Rome are being threatened by a gigantic army of the Belgi.

[00:45:43]Oh, we must defend them.

[00:45:45]In order to do that, we need to raise two new legions.

[00:45:49]And so we now have doubled the size of our army in two summers. We're paying them with the resources of Gaul, which we don't really mention. Um, and then we go and we fight the bell guy. And uh, here we can see Caesar's mastery of logistics. He plants his army opposite the army of the Belgy um, where they would have to charge uphill to attack him. Uh, he's well supplied. They're not. So, their confederation sort of breaks apart. And then he goes group by group by group through the land of the Belg bringing them into submission to Rome. uh at one point suffering a near disaster uh when his scouting lets him down against the people called the Nurvi and a dramatic description of the Nirvi's attack on Caesar's camp. Um and then we are told that the Nervi are virtually entirely annihilated.

[00:46:42]Uh this is the sort of thing that should have been written out if he in the correction of the story because three years later the Nurvi are going to show up besieging a Roman camp with tens of thousands of people. But never mind. uh a little bit of inconsistency here and there. Uh those are the inconsistencies which would lead people to sometimes say that you know each book was published independently. Uh but as I say the cross referencing shows that's not the case. I think the next year um Caesar uh has had to actually spend some time in Italy because this is where Pompy and Crus have been fighting with each other and he has to reorganize the triumirate into the early spring. uh when he learns horror of horrors uh this is the summer um that the people of the Veniti um in uh western u absolutely western France has seized Roman ambassadors who were there to collect food that they'd agreed to give to them and they have therefore violated the principle of the laws of nations. So Caesar must deal with them. And so Caesar deals with the Veniti and he builds a fleet while he's doing so. The next year um all of a sudden Caesar finds that Germanic tribes have crossed into northern France.

[00:48:05]They are therefore invading the lands and they're a menace to everybody. is sepect fascinatingly and appallingly in a way we've discovered the site of this battle. It's right in the was now been flooded um on the border between the Netherlands and Belgium. Uh but Caesar attacked the tenecti uh while negotiating with them. Now his version of it is while the negotiations were going on they attacked uh some golic cavalry and therefore they broke the treaty. there was no problem with Caesar annihilating them. Uh we can see signs of a massacre of the civilian population uh while this happened. Um there were protests that Caesar had violated uh Roman tradition in you know that how dare he break a treaty and now you can see that in the narrative the signs of you know no I did not do what my enemies are saying I did. They broke the treaty then I killed them. But what am I going to do now? Well, I'm on the edge of the Roman world, on the edge of Gaul. I better as well go find out something about the Germans. And so, I'll build a bridge because I'm cool with technology. I love good technology. And one of the most unreadable passages in all of Latin literature is Caesar's description of the giant bridge he built across the Rine. Uh, but he said that this would be in accord with his own dignity and the dignity of the Roman people to do this.

[00:49:34]interesting order of whose dignity comes first in that sentence. Um so he moves into Germany for a few days. Um it take you know he's in Germany for about the same amount of time it took and build the bridge but he has now imposed sort of fear of Rome upon the Germans.

[00:49:54]Oh and you know there's this other problem that's the Brits.

[00:49:58]Uh, every single war in Gaul, the British have been involved in inspiring opposition to Rome. First time this is mentioned, but we might as well go find out about them. And we have the first invasion of Britain. Now, imagine the propaganda rush. I have led the armies of Rome beyond the boundaries of the known world into Germany and Britain.

[00:50:21]in the next summer. We can sense from Cicero's correspondence that this is um there are two two lines that are coming out out here. One is Caesar needs to be continued in his command in Gaul uh because um you know it will finally stabilize the situation.

[00:50:39]Um and that you know if Caesar leaves too early then you know the Gauls could all blow up. Um, and then the other line is we're going to invade Britain uh because we think we're going to get really rich. And so you have the invasion of Britain. Um, and you know, this is in uh 54 doesn't, you know, doesn't quite yield what everybody was thinking. You know, Caesar puts the sends the troops back into winter quarters. There's difficulty here because um there had been a bad harvest. So, we've got to split the legions up. We can't put them all in one place. Um interestingly, we've also by this point established a central command um place um in what is now Orion.

[00:51:30]Um so to administer all this area. Uh but then while Caesar is away, a conspiracy led by um an individual gic chieftain um amborics um and he's going to try to sort of spark a major revolt against Rome.

[00:51:52]is if you go uh to Tonger in in Belgium today, you can get uh have a glass of ambic beer uh by the Statue of Abs representative of the freedom of of the people. Uh which was not really what happened because they were all killed.

[00:52:09]Um but he destroys um the legion and a half because of the stupidity of the legot in charge. Um and uh then sparks an attack on another garrison which is actually run by Caesar's uh Cisro's brother. Um so Caesar then sort of reappears, fixes the situation. This is the end of book five of the Golic Wars.

[00:52:36]What are we going to do next? Well, we we have to first of all wipe out Ambiorics. And again, there's signs archaeologically of the total destruction of people in central Belgium. Um now one of the other things that's interesting there's no we can see this in central Belgium but no other place in Gaul is there sign of the sort of mass destruction in this period that we see in this one area. Um and uh since the Nirvi had again joined with Ambiors to besiege a camp of uh Cicero uh you know oops not so many people have been killed as we said uh but the political situation Caesar is trying to build up loyal golic communities in the rest of Gaul. That's one of the reasons he's outraged at ambiorics because he done favors for him. How dare you do this? So we're going to show you what happens if you break faith with the Roman people.

[00:53:32]Uh, and it was clearly a very bloody massacre, but unlike what we'd seen anywhere else in Gaul because Caesar understood that if you kill people, they're going to hate you.

[00:53:43]Um, and so we can, you know, and where is his army coming from? Who's paying it? If you kill people, they can't the if you destroy the economy, they can't support your army. So he's actually his basic program is uh supporting a stronger economy in most of Gaul being managed by people who are appointed by him.

[00:54:05]Um and to sort of help everybody come together after we destroy the Eberon. Uh well, we're going to invade Germany again because that's good for propaganda. And we invade Germany and we come back and now we think everything's going to be cool.

[00:54:22]Well, in an area of Gaul that Caesar had never operated in, of course, there fights. Do we deal with the Romans? Do we not deal with the Romans? Can we get rid of the Romans? We're better off with the Romans. Well, the leader of the Arvini, a young man named Verseder, says, "We are going to destroy the Romans." Um, and he raises an army from his own tribe and then from a neighboring people. This is all in a part of Gaul that Caesar hadn't fought in before. Um they destroy the Roman uh sorry the original Roman base had been amien uh the new Roman center of government had been at uh was it Orlon we destroy the Roman base at Orlon and now Caesar can't come north because there's problems in Rome political problems this is the death of Claius how do we get Pompy to do etc well all of a sudden uh once the political situation in Rome and notice the stress here in Caesar bad politics in Rome creates bad politics in Gaul The Gauls are feel that they can rebel because Caesar can't come north because of the problems in Italy. That's you know this is total but this is the way Caesar puts it. Um and you know the great campaign in in 52 uh versed has a large coalition. Uh Caesar originally uh drives south against versed. If you go to Dragovia today, you can see this vast um plateau that the city sat on and the same Elise Suren again. Golic city to be built on top of high hills. Well, Caesar had tried to take Jacovia. It hadn't worked. Uh all of a sudden, a group of the Edgewee rebel against him. The war shifts to the uh to eastern France uh with versed sort of marching alongside of Caesar and then Caesar defeats him and drives him to Allesia or the modern city uh which is Seren which is a beautiful place. Um and there are two wonderful statues there. one of versed uh unfortunately with a uh image of Napoleon III. Uh Napoleon III did huge work on Caesar and therefore thought that vers Jederics could look like him.

[00:56:47]Um and John uh and so we then settled down to the siege of Allesia.

[00:56:54]Um again Caesar has looked to having the right supplies. the relief column that comes to relieve uh vers Jeredics runs into Caesar's fortifications uh and they have to attack because they don't have the food not to attack. Again, it's all done by logistics on Caesar's part. Uh he destroys the rel again they're every human being on the planet has joined the relief force against Caesar even though there's no way you could have fed anything like this or gathered them at that sort of time. Uh but Caesar defeats them. vers and Jederic surrenders and the next two years are spent with Caesar. He doesn't write up the next two years uh the dramatic conclusion of this you know seventh book of the golic wars Caesar leading the victorious charge and then a couple of paragraphs on person surrendered cool um and then the notes that he left behind for the next few years were written up by Alice Hers where again you can see is Caesar is very consciously going and creating a political union in Gaul that will work even if and when he leaves.

[00:57:59]So it sounds like Caesar is pretty triumphant at the end of this uh almost decade period of warfare. How do we get from here to civil war?

[00:58:08]>> Well, the more powerful Caesar became, the more jealous Pompy became. And the question will be at the end of the 10 years in Gaul, will Caesar immediately be elected console uh or will he not?

[00:58:21]And will there be a command for him uh when he's done? Well, somebody's got to do something because the Parththeians, you know, they're not very efficient.

[00:58:29]But Cassus had been destroyed in 53. And so, you know, Parthion armies wandering in and out of Syria.

[00:58:37]If the best you can do is hope that Cicero can manage the situation as governor of southern Gaul and 50, you know, you got a real problem. Um, so you got to raise an army. They're going to send it east. Who's going to command it?

[00:58:49]Well, there are two very great generals. One of whom has an extended command in Spain where he'd commanded for a long time.

[00:58:57]That is Pompy. And for some reason, he's collecting all of the silver from the Spanish silver mines and storing it there.

[00:59:04]Um, and so question comes, will Caesar continue to be the head of a giant army, the head of a giant organization, uh, or does he have to give it up to become console, at which point he could be exposed to his political rivals. He might not be able to get another command. I mean, it's not, you know, I don't even think Pompy believed that. Um but clearly Poppy wants to see Caesar out of operation. Caesar realizes that uh and you know the negotiations between the two carry on. Pompy begins to feel that everybody really loves him. Uh there's a story in Plutarch's biography of Pompy that Pompy fell ill and then the sort of representations of all of Italy, you know, looking to make Pomp, you know, praying for Pompy's health convinced Pompy that everybody loved him and that strengthened his resolve to go to war with Caesar.

[01:00:05]In the meantime, Caesar is raising new legions. Um Pompy at one point had said to him, "Yes, uh we're going to send legions to Partha. Um, and I you're going to donate a legion and I'm going to donate a legion. And the legion I'm donating is a legion I lent to you a couple of years ago. So I'm stripping Caesar of two legions and I'm going to keep them in Italy and not go to fight the Parthians.

[01:00:31]10 people count. Cisero says, "Oh, Caesar has 10 legions."

[01:00:36]It's pretty clear um work of brilliant work by German scholars on this. Caesar had 13 um and half the army was pointed towards Spain and the other half was pointed towards Italy and there was no way that Pompy could resist him. Uh and so when Caesar the negotiations break down basically Pompy says I can't deal with this guy. Caesar then writes, you know, it's not really Pompy. It's all of these jealous people who've, you know, deprived have turned Pompy from his friendship with Caesar. And you know, it's just a terrible scene down there.

[01:01:12]And they're totally dishonest. And they're threatening the rights of the tribunes of the Roman people who are standing up for me. And they've driven the tribune from the city. So I must defend the rights of the Roman tribunes.

[01:01:23]And so I happen to invade Italy at the head of several legions. one legion start with you the great line the Rubicon the the dire cast Alia yakasant um but you know all of a sudden we find that they're following Caesar around Pompy has figured this out uh and he takes off for the east where he can raise a new army on his own. Um, and so the latter part of then in 49, Caesar summons a meeting of the people and we can tell how much he cares for the rights of the Roman tribunes because a tribune tries to tell Caesar he can't have money from the treasury and Caesar says fill in the blank.

[01:02:01]Um, and then he goes off to Spain where he defeats the army of Pompy in Spain. Um and uh this is where uh he gets the huge treasure trove which allows Caesar to issue the largest single issue of coins in the history of the Roman Republic.

[01:02:21]And this is with the image of the family elephant on it uh to pay his army whose salaries he's doubled. And interestingly enough uh what it cost to pay those legions is exactly the tribute imposed on Gaul when Caesar left.

[01:02:37]So the whole thing again Caesar money planning he's on top of this. 48 he crosses um the uh into Greece. Um Pompy is very aware that Caesar's army is far better than his and tries to avoid a head up struggle. Pompy is actually a very good general. At one point he actually defeats Caesar outside of Draium by again preventing Caesar from using his army the way he wants to use it. Uh Caesar has to withdraw to central Greece. Pompy follows after him. At this point, however, Pompy has all these other people around him saying, "Well, you're only not you're not fighting Caesar because you're afraid and you're prolonging this war endlessly and how dare you not fight Caesar." And uh so Pompy is basically forced to do what he knows is stupid to expose his troops who have very little experience to Caesar's veterans. although he has a much bigger army, you know, there's a lot of work that goes into training a Roman soldier.

[01:03:39]Um, and Pompy is a fascinating description. He says, "Well, my cavalry with a large flat plane at Farsculus.

[01:03:46]You see it today. You see how wide it is. We'll put our cavalry over on this wing and they'll surround Caesar. Um, and therefore by outflanking him, uh, we'll be able to win because we're not going to expose our infantry to Caesar's infantry. Um, unless, you know, they're in a bad situation. Well, Caesar could see what's going on. Now, everybody knows the one thing that Pompy could do would be something like that. So, he creates a fourth line of soldiers. And when Pompy's cavalry beat his cavalry, uh, his infantry attack Pompy's cavalry, drive them from the field. And then in an incredibly poignant scene, uh Caesar writes, "When Pompy saw that his cavalry had been defeated, he withdrew to his tent, saying that Pompy knew he was finished."

[01:04:32]And Caesar's soldiers advance across the uh the plane of Forceless and Pompy soldiers don't. And Caesar puts in Pompy should have realized that, you know, soldiers develop spirit when they advance. And he, you know, he's undermining the psychology of his own men by not doing this. But Caesar's army hits Pompy's army. Pompy's army flees.

[01:04:53]Caesar's victorious. Uh Pompy um removes himself, goes off. Where am I going to go now? Well, the king of Egypt owes me a lot of money.

[01:05:03]Um and he is lured from his ship by a soldier who's part of a Roman garrison that had been left in Egypt. man who served under Pompy in the past who stabbed him in the back.

[01:05:18]>> Poor Pompy. So, uh, Caesar of course goes to Egypt after him, but, uh, why does he why does he stay so long?

[01:05:25]>> Well, one word, Cleopatra.

[01:05:34]Um, but he doesn't stay as long as people said he's, and it's not quite the party that it seemed to be. Um, you know, he arrives instead of October. Um, he finds Cleopatra and her brother at war with each other. Uh, Cleopatra seduces him. He clearly finds her absolutely fascinating. Um, and if we look at the people, women in Caesar's life, you know, he had they're very strong personalities. This is mother Aurelia.

[01:06:01]um his uh first wife Cornelia clearly in some ways Cvilia who was the uh sister of his great enemy Ko but she is a really potent figure we have a wonderful sort of portrait of her from uh Cicero and so Cleopatra is sort of a longer younger version of Cervilia in many ways a really smart powerful woman um and of course at this point you know Caesar's a little care gotten a bit you know he's ruler He's the most powerful man in the world. He does does he have to pay attention to this? Well, you know, he starts a war with Cleopatra's brother when he starts an affair with Cleopatra, the name that never shows up in Caesar's writings. Cleopatra is mentioned once in the uh at the end of the history of the civil war simply saying she and her brother weren't getting on and once in the account of the Alexandrian war which was completed on the basis of Caesar's notes saying and Caesar left Cleopatra in charge of Egypt and know but the in addition to money which he claimed he was owed by the Egyptians as a source of grain Pompy's the survivors of farists of occupied North Africa, which is a major source of grain for the people of Rome. You're going to need to supplement it somehow because you're not getting the grain. Uh and so if Cleopatra would kindly send some nice grain to Rome, that would be fine. Nobody mentions this, but we know that, you know, Egypt becomes the major supplier of grain to Rome along with North Africa. And I don't think that's accidental uh in 4847 uh when Caesar is organizing Egypt.

[01:07:46]uh and leaving Cleopatra as queen.

[01:07:49]Um but then he does have to move um because the son of Mr. Hades has occupied Roman provinces in northern Turkey and there he takes after Fnick and then you have um his great victory uh which leads to his famous message venviki I came I saw I conquered and so but he's been away from Rome now for a long time and so at the end of 47 he's got to come back and sort out the complete mess uh that Italy has become And uh of course from there we have uh the dictatorship eventually. Um if you could explain how we get there and then of course how that leads to his assassination.

[01:08:33]>> Bring us home.

[01:08:35]>> What I think Caesar saw is the person who essentially you know I what we'd had is infighting by Roman aristocrats about issues of debt and then the failure to manage Caesar's army which after Farcelus had come back to Italy and nobody could figure out how to demobilize them. Uh so they were mutinying. Uh there were people causing riots in the city of Rome. Uh Mark Anthony was supposed to be managing this. He was a total failure at it. Um and it's interesting that whoever wrote the Alexandrian war underscores Anthony idiot. Um I think this was written by Alice Hers in the months before the civil war broke out uh in which he was confronting Anthony. Um Caesar comes back uh he issues I mean the the problem of debt is a serious one because if you took out a loan you would and again we're talking about people who are propertied people uh if they had taken out a loan they'd put their property up uh as collateral on the loan but if the value of property collapses because of the Civil War then the amount of collateral can rise to be a major portion of somebody's estate. So somebody's got to fix this. Um and the first thing and so we can see what has first thing Caesar does when he comes back is he uh passes the law saying all property will be valued at the rate it was valued before the outbreak of the civil war and that certainly brings a certain amount of peace to the domestic situation. He then shows up or the army the famous line army is marching on Rome the 10th legion his favorite legion is leading the way Caesar goes to meet the people say they've killed a couple of magistrates were sent to deal with them Caesar what are you doing you're going to go talk to them yes and he stands up in front of the uh 10th legion uh who he had always fel talked to as commit my fellow soldiers instead he says quires citizens, have we just been fired?

[01:10:46]And Caesar then, you know, no, here's what's going to happen. We have a war in North Africa, but here's the retirement deal that you're all going to get. Some people can take it now. Some people are going to North Africa with the new legions, but we're going to but according to the deal, you're all going to get land. You're all going to get money. But it's going to not be like Solo because we're not seizing land from people. were buying land from people to give it to you and it's going to take a while for that to happen but you'll get a bonus and so the soldiers believe Caesar and this is really important because it says something about the relationship you know they believe him when he says something to them they don't believe anybody else but they believe him uh and the 10th legion is willing to come back to order uh and follow him to North Africa for the campaign uh in 46 uh which you 46 to 45 uh which leads to uh the destruction of another you know most of Pompy's followers at that time.

[01:11:48]Um the year 45 is the sort of ultimate year of Caesar's total control because at this point he has promised the Roman people they'll have cheap grain. He reorganizes the grain supply. He takes people off the grain rolls uh saying that they don't qualify but they can qualify to be members of Cesarian colonies in North Africa and in Greece, Corinth and Carthage. Uh which again these are areas that have been Pompean. So he's planting loyal Cesarian colonies of Roman citizens uh where he needs them. Um he's reorganizing well or he's having his lieutenant Balbas uh reorganize municipal administration in Italy. so will work better. Uh and he is uh giving land and money to his soldiers.

[01:12:42]Um it's a very top- down system. Uh for most of the year there are no magistrates. There are prefects who Caesar has put in charge because they're going to do what he says. Uh Cicero sort of god again. Jeez, what's going on here? uh refers to Caesar's lieutenants uh Opus and Balbus and good friends as the kings uh because Caesar will support decisions that they made and this is the point where you can see well Caesar's basically said you know when we have the traditional say it just doesn't work so it's going to work my way and okay we're going to elect some magistrates at the end of the year that's fine uh but for much of the year 45 Caesar isn't going to be in Italy again I mean he won the battle of in 46 the battle of Thapsis and then a few months later Pompy's sons had raised a rebellion in Spain and so Caesar is going to spend most of 45 in Spain fighting his final campaign against the sons of Pompy and getting to know his nephew young Octavius Anthony is his nephew as well but Anthony has blotted his copy copy book uh completely he's got a couple other nephews around as well you know because he had two sisters um But this Octavian grand nephew, he looks pretty smart. Um, and so um, but you know, so he he's beginning to show Octavian, uh, how to run things in 45, and he's going to write him in as his heir and his will before the end of the year. Uh but in the meantime, what we see is Caesar's model of the government of Rome, which is totally top down and centered on his own organization. Okay, we'll elect magistrates later, but do they really count?

[01:14:32]Does the traditional structure of the Roman state really matter? Well, Caesar is going to allow two people to celebrate triumphs to fight the fact despite the fact that they were fighting under his opaces, not their own, which is totally violates the rules. And then on the last day of the year, one of the consoles dies and Caesar has an election to elect a one-day console.

[01:14:53]What does that tell us about the importance of the consil ship, the highest office in Rome in Caesar's view?

[01:15:01]Not a lot. Um, so Caesar now is dictator has now been accorded the office of dictator for life. He says, "Now I'm going to go fight the Parththeians." Um, and despite the fact that, you know, we're sort of ignoring the fact that Cleopatra is there. Uh, but there's a sense that Rome's being run an awful lot like Egypt is by an absent monarch and that's what's in prospect for the next several years. Caesar has appointed people to be consoles, but it's clear the direction is going to come back from Caesar.

[01:15:34]Um, and you know, it really is Caesar's disdain for the very obvious disdain for the traditional constitution that causes the conspiracy. Many of the people who are members of the conspiracy of course had been supporters of Pompy and Caesar had spared that would be Brutus. But Brutus is also the son of his mistress really all kinds of things around you know Brutus and Cases. uh but another member of this is Trabonius uh leader who had been one of Caesar's major generals um and there people who served under Caesar who are saying we're not getting what we expected there's no respect for our positions we have to listen to opus and basis all the time any orius or hers all those guys um so it was that you know very clear you know this is not if we have the same offices of the republic that's fine so long as everybody remembers to do what I tell them to do.

[01:16:38]That's not what people assign on for that which leads to the conspiracy.

[01:16:43]Um and it's that um which led directly to the eyides of March and when they murdered Caesar the assassins said we have restored the republic.

[01:16:57]It sounds like for a lot of the conspirators uh there was they were torn between you know what they saw as their duty and having to kill this guy that presumably a lot of them liked. Would that be accurate to say?

[01:17:09]>> Yes, I think it is. I mean Caesar could be quite as you know anybody would could be thoroughly charming. Um but um you know they were just we can't get through to him I think is what they were saying.

[01:17:24]Um and Caesar recognized that we talked about how he'd asked Pompy to sorry Cicero to write a book about uh how to run this new world and you know Caesar didn't have a clear model for it. Uh but his administrative style is so top down uh you either liked it or you'd had it.

[01:17:50]And uh as we begin to run down on time, I just wanted to know, of course, as we mentioned in the beginning, uh your latest book, Master of Rome, The Life of Julius Caesar, uh is coming out in August. We will link that in the description below. Uh I was wondering while you were writing this book, were there any surprises? Were there any things that sort of jumped out at you that you didn't really expect?

[01:18:12]>> Frankly, it was getting to know Caesar.

[01:18:15]um working my way through the gic wars realizing you know that when you read between the lines you can see how he manages things you can see his attention to detail uh you can get a sense for his personal style um and I think that one thing that I hope readers will get out of this book is they will have a chance to meet the real Caesar uh not the Caesar that we see in the invented in the biographical tradition not the Caesar who we meet often in Cicero who's basically jealous. I'm not jealous. Um but you know that you you get a real sense for the personality that is there and that was I thought uh the biggest surprise I had that a very different person uh came out of this um than I'd gone in thinking about.

[01:19:09]>> Well yeah I for one am very excited to read this book again. Master of Rome, the life of Julius Caesar comes out August 2025. Um, the link is in the description. So, make sure that you get your copy. Uh, dear dear viewer. Um, and yeah, that is about all the time we have. So, I want to say uh, Professor Potter, thank you very much for uh, for this conversation. Um, it was a delight having you on.

[01:19:33]>> Thank you very much for having me. It's my pleasure.

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