Sustainable building & design with Tony Brown / Cody Lundin’s Keep Your Ass Alive Ep 7

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:03]Round two.

[00:00:07][music] You're listening to Cody Londin's Keep Your Ass, where Cody teaches real people real skills, giving raw, hard survival advice with a hug. And now broadcasting from somewhere in a high desert wilderness. Here's Cody.

[00:00:35]Hey, welcome to another episode of Keep Your Ass. I'm your host, Cody Lundine, and I have a very special guest, Tony Brown. And what we're going to do with Tony, the reason I asked Tony to be here around our crackling campfire, we're going to have a campfire talk, is Tonyy's a literally a master of sustainable design. I would call him an icon. He might smirk or roll his eyes at that, but I wouldn't. He's been doing this for a long time. Well, this is a survival show, so why in the hell am I having some guy talk about sustainable design? Well, if something is not sustainable, that means there's an end point. And that end point in the field could be death, right? So, we're all living one way or another in a shelter.

[00:01:13]Even if you're in your van listening to this podcast in a parking lot, you're still in a shelter. So, what Tony's a master at is taking shelters and making them sustainable within the bio region they're sitting at. And what that means, and we'll talk to him about that, is you're going to last longer in in plain terms, right? If something is sustainable, it means it's going to last longer and have an enduring quality.

[00:01:37]This is a survival show. We're talking about sustainable design because it matters. It matters to long s long-term and sometimes short-term survival. So Tony, welcome to Keep Your Ass.

[00:01:50]>> Well, thank you.

[00:01:51]>> So you've been an architect for a long, long time. I want to know what your passion was to get into architecture and how long you've been doing it.

[00:02:03]>> Well, um, it's a long story.

[00:02:07]Um, well, I grew up in London, so obviously I was surrounded by a lot of incredible buildings all the way from, you know, the Tower of London to uh the the Shard, you know, the new [snorts] new buildings. And um that sort of seeped into my uh consciousness, not uh not uh purposefully, but just by being there. And then um I also my dad ran pubs and I grew up in pubs which was kind of a interesting experience. A lot of architects said the most difficult things to design of churches and pubs because they all have atmosphere.

[00:02:50]>> Huh. And uh so one of the ones I remember which was really amazing was uh a pub called the the Duke of Grafton and it was on a road called Houston Road but it was a Victorian pub so it had uh etched glass. It had it had stained glass skylights. It had um it had a mural on a mirror all the way around the bar that was like a a mural of a um a river with herands and and all sorts of creatures in it. And I was really young.

[00:03:30]I was just, you know, still in school and I had to come in through. But when everybody had left, it was so quiet down there. I'd go and I'd just look at all these pictures on the wall. So then um I went into the Air Force uh because it was required. You had a two-year um requirement for national service. And then when I came out, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. Um, but my father had a friend who was an architect and so I went to work for him and I really got in to enjoy it because it's a combination of art, science, technology, you know, it's actually a combination of everything if you think about it. Um, and so for me, my brain is one that keeps jumping around from all sorts of things. It sort of was a kind of way of synthesizing ideas I had. So that was really the catalyst for me getting into architecture and then of course I went to school and got a degree.

[00:04:32]>> How long have you been an architect?

[00:04:34]>> Well my degree is in the 1950s 53 I think it was when I got my degree.

[00:04:43]>> I was really stoned in math class. What is [laughter] what is that in what is that in years?

[00:04:48]>> You've been an architect for 60 plus years now.

[00:04:50]>> Yeah.

[00:04:50]>> Damn.

[00:04:51]>> Yeah. It's a long time. So, we both know I'm not an architect and you know that because you are, but I've known you for a long time. There's a lot of architects in town and elsewhere that design unsustainable crap.

[00:05:06]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:05:06]>> What got you into sustainable design?

[00:05:10]Well, when I ended up coming to the US, um, I worked in, uh, Berkeley for some famous architects and I got kind of frustrated because they, you know, my opinion, they're just making the slums of the future and um, and then I saw an exhibit in Berkeley Art Museum for an architect called Poseri and he was designing these amazing um, threedimensional cities and it happened that they were offering workshops. So I this was my epiphany moment. I I sort of go I got to go see what this is about. So I signed up for a workshop. Um that was 1971 I think it was.

[00:05:58]>> And you saw it in Berkeley but was it an ad in Berkeley and you and he was in Arizona with the workshop or was he in Berkeley? No, he was in Berkeley for this big exhibit where it had these incredible models of urban design.

[00:06:13]And so I signed up for the workshop, ended up coming to Arizona, which is how I got here. And um uh it was just amazing. Um we talked about sustainability all the time, about why cities aren't working, why we needed a totally different model for urban design.

[00:06:34]um how we could solve uh sprawl, land use, water use, uh food systems.

[00:06:44]Um and we [clears throat] we we discussed this, you know, on this construction site because it was also a construction site where they were trying to build an archeology which is a combination of architecture and ecology.

[00:06:58]>> Archology.

[00:07:00]>> Yeah. And so the the place that I went to was called Araanti and um it was an attempt to build a prototype of this big idea about three-dimensional cities. And so um I was there for uh six weeks. I got there and he said, "Oh, you're an architect.

[00:07:24]Build this." And I never built anything in my life. [laughter] And so I ended up figuring out how to build this uh roof on a octagonal structure. And uh and I I really felt like there was a sense of purpose being there. Whereas in all the architecture offices I'd worked in, it was just like how can we make more money? How can we get more projects? It wasn't anything about why are we doing this. it's always about um how and I thought, well, we need to start talking about why we're doing all this stuff. So anyway, I was so enthused about being there that I um I I went back to Berkeley and then wrote and said, "Hey, I'd like to come out and be permanent there and help you build this thing."

[00:08:17]>> Wow. So, uh, eventually they said yes because I had a wife and a child at the time and, um, it wasn't really set up. It was more a construction site than anything else.

[00:08:29]And but anyway, I came back in 1972 and then ended up staying there for 13 years, which was way longer than I'd ever planned staying anywhere. Wow.

[00:08:41]So we uh had to teach people every six weeks who came in how to build these giant concrete structures.

[00:08:51]>> What do you mean by that? Every six weeks was there little tribes of students that would come in on a rotating basis then.

[00:08:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Every six weeks there'd be a new cohort coming in.

[00:09:02]>> Now the 70s are that's when this stuff was hip.

[00:09:06]>> Yeah.

[00:09:06]>> Everyone's you know solar and whatever.

[00:09:09]So I, you know, we'll talk a lot later about what's quote unquote hip now, but what was it like then with that particular green movement? Was there a high level of passion from the general public to get back to the land and do something sustainable? Yeah, because the 70s were really a time when um you know Earth Day started well you know all everybody was really conscious about the whole idea of uh sustainability recycling all this kind of stuff and >> what the hell happened?

[00:09:44]>> Yeah, that's what I keep asking myself.

[00:09:46][laughter] >> Um >> so every six weeks a new tribe would come in.

[00:09:51]>> Yeah. And we know uh Arco Sante is still there by the way in the same location where you helped build it, right?

[00:09:59]>> Yeah.

[00:10:00]>> And then what happened with Cuz 13 years is a long time there.

[00:10:04]>> Yeah. Well, I I um I I'd taken a a a year off from construction to do uh the idea of making EOS I mean Araanti a um uh art center and so I'd been working on that for a year and so said yes that's fine that's good idea and then after a year and a half uh we had a meeting about what I was doing and how I was trying to do this. And then he said, "Well, I don't want you to do this anymore." And u so I said, "Okay, well, why is that?" And he said, "Cuz you might be too successful."

[00:10:50]And I thought, "What the hell? That's crazy."

[00:10:54]Um what he meant was it was going to take energy away from the construction uh by bringing arts into the community there. And my argument was no, it's not.

[00:11:08]It's going to actually bring more energy. It's going to be, you know, bring publicity. It's going to bring people. But he was adamant. So I said okay.

[00:11:18]And then uh six weeks later we were gone.

[00:11:21]>> Wow.

[00:11:23]>> Wow.

[00:11:24]So, uh, we moved to Prescott because Prescott was the closest town and we were totally broke. Um, it wasn't it wasn't a paying well paid a little bit minimum wage I think it was. And, um, so anyway, I I knocked around in Prescott for a while trying to figure out what to do. And uh I always had this idea of getting into education because at Arasanti I'd been teaching people how to pour concrete, how to build forms, how to do all this stuff, but also getting involved in Solari's philosophy because he was a philosopher as well as an architect.

[00:12:05]And so I did a whole bunch of things. I wrote for a magazine for a while till it folded. Then I uh I did some illustrations. they got jobs doing illustrations. And then um I finally decided uh with the art director of the magazine that folded that we'd start up a graphic design company. So then I did that and then I um you know we built I built the whole thing up because my partner bailed after a year. So I was left with that. Um so then I built it up and built it up. We got the hospital as a client. We got Prescott College as a client.

[00:12:48]And that allowed me some uh room to be able to try something new. So I um I went to Prescott College and I said, "Look, I I'm into this sustainability stuff. Um I'd like to design a class to do to teach students sustainable design." And it took them a year of debate and do we want to do this or not?

[00:13:15]Maybe, maybe not. Um, so finally they did. I had a friend who was also an architect, a woman called Patty Olsen.

[00:13:24]And so we together taught the first class and then um and then we built it up to five classes which was great. you know, it covered a whole bigger range of subjects including urban design.

[00:13:39]Then Prescott College went through a financial crisis and they came to me and said, "Okay, we're canceling the sustainability classes."

[00:13:51]So, um, I thought screw it. I'll start my own school. um if they're not going to be smart enough to know this is an important subject, I'll start my own school and we can uh did whatever we want. So I started a a a school called the Koser Institute and um put a board together and uh we talked about how to raise money, how to do a whole bunch of um publicity and all that stuff. And then one day one of our board members said, "You know, I think we've talked enough. Why don't you just put out a website and see what happens?" So we did that and for the first uh semester in 2000, we got eight students and you were there. No, [clears throat] we got more than that. We got 11 students and we did that first semester at Arasanti.

[00:14:49]I mean, even though I've left, I didn't burn any bridges. So, you know, we still had a relationship.

[00:14:55]>> I remember that class.

[00:14:56]>> Yeah. Um, so that's where it started and then we've been running semester classes for pretty much the last uh 18 years.

[00:15:07]And then I got involved with being becoming part of Prescott College. Um, which was seemed like a good idea at the time. Um so I became a a ad a junct professor at Prescott College. We as part of the deal um the money we had went into uh Prescott College plus 65 acres of land in the Granite Dells went into Prescott College.

[00:15:38]As it turned out, uh, fortunately, we had a a very tight agreement with Prescott College and that agreement had a escape clause.

[00:15:52]So, first semester at Prescott College was great, 16 weeks, great students.

[00:15:57]Second semester was great, bunch of students, but then COVID hit in the middle of it. They said, "No, we're not going to allow you to do 16week programs anymore. You have to do these four-week blocks." And to be honest, four-week blocks to understand a subject like sustainable design is just not enough.

[00:16:20]>> Yeah. Um, so, um, >> you're on your own again now and it's boss is based in Denver then.

[00:16:28]>> Yeah, we're on our own. So, I'm getting up there in years. So, I can't be as energetic as I was in the beginning. And so, I have this amazing woman called Cindia Fishman. She was an alumni in 2017, I think it was, or maybe before.

[00:16:46]And she's got so much energy. She's passionate about program. She's really over the last she's worked for free over the last uh three three or four months.

[00:16:57]Um we've got a board together that's a dynoite board. We're planning on starting again next year with the semester programs.

[00:17:06]>> Yeah. And I want to talk to you more about AOSA. Um this podcast keep your ass alive is about all things self-reliant. Mhm.

[00:17:14]>> You agreed to be here because sustain sustainable design >> in the context of self-reliance/s survival cuz they can be a hair with the way.

[00:17:24]>> Why is sustainable design important?

[00:17:28]>> Well, if you want to look at the big picture, we're just killing ourselves as a as a species. I mean, we're destroying the land. We've got climate change is going on. We're still pumping masses amount of carbon dioxide into the air.

[00:17:43]Um, we're we're doing these things with agricultural farming that's destroying waterways. Um, if you go through the whole list, it's just incredibly stupid.

[00:17:55]>> Why do you think we keep crapping where we sleep?

[00:17:58]>> Um, lack of education, I think, is one thing. Politicians that use it as a a lever to maintain power. Um it's it's a very complex subject.

[00:18:14]There's lots of reasons why these things happen, but generally uh I think if you look at the the polling, the majority of of Americans are worried about climate change, for example, but they don't know what to do about it. They have no, you know, they have no knowledge to say you can do this. And then what happens is everybody says, "Oh, recycle um don't waste water, don't do these things, don't uh but it's really the corporations telling you to do that so they can't take responsibility. They they're putting the responsibility on the individual instead of themselves. Um it's a great way of uh uh saying it's not our fault.

[00:19:00]>> Absolving responsibility.

[00:19:01]>> Yeah. Now, for those that don't know, Tony and a gentleman named Rob Israel, a long time ago, what was that? When did AOSA start? Late 90s, mid '9s?

[00:19:12]>> It was 1996 when we got a nonprofit.

[00:19:15]>> 1996.

[00:19:17]Tony and Rob uh brought me into an office and we talked about similar to a college program called orientation at a college that's in town where they take the students out for a few weeks in the back country. And you wanted me essentially to thump design students to take them out for three days so that in a survival situation per se with limited gear so they would understand the true dynamics of what is needed as opposed to what is wanted >> right >> and and and we did that >> for for many many many years. So I've known Tony for many years and taken out many many many AOSA students into the field and I [snorts] have a high respect for you and it's a real privilege to have you here because you've never >> you've held to your vision. You've held on to it. You've just told us two or three or four failures. Most people will go screw this. I'm going to go back and work at the big box store. Not you. Mhm.

[00:20:15]>> So, I respect you highly for starting out with something that was a trend or phase or whatever you want to call it in the 70s and is sure not now >> cuz it's like swimming upstream to get people to understand [laughter] >> sustainability is important. All indigenous peoples knew that sustainability was important or they died. So, right off the bat, I want to say thank you >> and hundreds of other students and the information hopefully they'll get out in this podcast podcast for being you and not folding and always swimming upstream and never giving up.

[00:20:52]>> Well, thank you.

[00:20:52]>> Yeah, because well, yeah, thank you because that's too rare nowadays. Now, regarding energy efficiency and sustainability, when I used to talk to AOSA students, I make money as a professional survival instructor, >> and I had this thing back in my head a long time ago that money was evil, and it certainly can be used for that.

[00:21:14]>> But if I don't make a living doing what I'm doing, >> then I will be working at the big box store or whatever. So as much as it horrified some of KOSA students, I would always say look, you need to make money doing your passion or the passion is a hobby. It won't be a profession.

[00:21:32]>> And one of the things I like to tell a KOSA students and unfortunately it it's people associate value with how much money am I saving? So, regarding energy efficiency and sustainability, for all you out there that might be going, "What in the hell are we talking about sustainable design for we're going to try to save you money if you don't care about living longer through sustainable design?" And that's what it'll do. So, regarding energy efficient, energy efficiency and sustainability in that context, what are the biggest mistakes that architects make designing a home?

[00:22:10]>> Orientation.

[00:22:12]They if you go to any subdivision, I will guarantee you that they're lined up in all sorts of directions. Well, if you want to have a a building be uh energy efficient, you need to be aware of where the sun is. So you really need buildings to be uh basically if you look at it simplistically a rectangle with the long side being east west. Uh because then the south side is access to solar energy. Um and because the sun moves the way it does, you can actually control when that sun comes in and when it doesn't come in. And that's called passive solar design. Correct.

[00:23:02]>> Passive solar design. Yeah. So, uh, most designers, particularly developers, if they're housing developers, they don't do that because they want everything to be in different orientations. So, they actually, those houses are not initially able to take advantage of the sun. They just have to put in energy to make it work.

[00:23:31]>> So they have to be on the grid. The sun is free energy.

[00:23:34]>> Yeah.

[00:23:34]>> Essentially, so they're ignoring orientation, ignoring that free energy, >> right?

[00:23:40]>> And we could talk about over I don't know how deeply we get into past design.

[00:23:43]But if you don't get what he just said, if you know how to orient your house in the right direction, assuming you're a new builder, it'll save you money.

[00:23:52]Again, I'm pulling things back to like because that's what people seem to respond to nowadays.

[00:23:57]>> Money, money, money. And a a self-reliant home >> could potentially save your life and a [clears throat] hell of a lot of money over the years.

[00:24:07]>> So, orientation, um, how much energy does the United States of America use to maintain room temperature?

[00:24:16]Well, 75% of America's electricity goes into houses.

[00:24:23]So, just maintaining houses with appliances, lighting, some heating, cooking, all those kind of things. So, 75% is >> You're kidding. of of the entire grid budget goes into running a home.

[00:24:37]>> Mhm.

[00:24:38]>> Because that home probably sucks as far as self-reliance.

[00:24:42]>> Yeah. Because in the 50s we built homes as cheaply as we could and uh insulation wasn't an issue because energy was abundant and cheap and you could just pump as much energy as you wanted into a house.

[00:24:57]So all that old housing stock in the n from the 1950s maybe some of the 60s well probably the 60s too and even 70s uh are not designed to be uh well insulated to be able to um use this solar energy. They're just uh heat socks basically >> right now. It takes a lot of money to knock something down and build something back up again. What's your opinion? If someone has one of those homes, what's the cheapest, easiest thing they can do to try to regulate room temperature and use less grid power as far as thermal regulation and heating and cooling?

[00:25:38]>> Right. Well, the simplest thing you can possibly do is to cork every gap in the around windows, around doors, around electric boxes.

[00:25:49]That stops infiltration of outside air coming in.

[00:25:54]um it's not you know it's not a solution to the whole thing but then going in and reinssulating reinssulating all the attics the walls so on >> so R factor in insulation does the R mean resistance to air flow is that what it means >> resistance to heat >> resistance to heat >> so the windows whatever get rid of the gaps >> and then add insulation are probably the easiest and slash cheapest ways that someone can retrofit a home to use less grid power, >> right?

[00:26:29]>> Anything else?

[00:26:30]>> Um, well, obviously if you put in solar panels and produce your own electricity, it's going to >> What do you think about single pane windows suck, correct?

[00:26:39]>> Oh, yeah. Rep, if you can afford it, replacing windows. The problem is a lot of the early houses are are sort of beginning to dilapitate and so they tend to be owned by people with less money and so it's harder to get those how those people to spend that kind of money.

[00:26:59]>> Sure.

[00:27:00]>> But yeah, >> but generally if you want to if you can put in new windows there are some programs I believe where you can get new windows at cost or low if you're in a low income bracket.

[00:27:12]Um, but that's a really good way of doing it. Windows are basically a big hole in the wall. I mean, they they have no value in terms of resisting heat.

[00:27:23]>> Is it like R2 or something for a double pane window?

[00:27:26]>> For well, for a double pane, it's probably more like uh like an R3 or four. A triple pane window is is the best you can get. And that's not really very high. It's equivalent to an R5, I think. something like that. Um, if if you're going to get into that, it gets a little tricky because the window industry [clears throat and cough] uses a metric that's different to R values. They use a thing which is a reciprocal of R values called U values.

[00:28:01]And I think the reason they did that is cuz it looks better on their [laughter] on their uh brochures because um the the lower the number the better the window.

[00:28:13]>> Got it.

[00:28:14]>> So if you have a high U value, it means your window sucks basically.

[00:28:19]>> But it looks good to the people that don't understand the innuendo >> through the Yakosa Institute because I've been a student in that too. not taking the classes at the AOSA Institute but learning from the students projects etc and and helping and teaching and learning from them in the field. AOSA tries to take design and nature and make them as one. Why is it important for sustainable design to pay attention to nature?

[00:28:47]Well, apart from our own survival, it's really um interesting that since the uh 1970s, more and more research has been done on humans and nature and what nature does to us. Nature has a huge in psychological impact on humans. Um there's now studies showing if you walk in the woods for an hour, your blood pressure goes down. the stress hormones dissipate.

[00:29:19]U trees are putting what's called tarpen into the air which affect your well-being.

[00:29:26]Um so just uh from walking in or wood you can get um a feeling of much more uh psychological peace. Um there's a study done by a guy called Ulrich which was done in the I believe 1970s where he uh used a hospital where they were doing um s the same surgeries on one wing. It was um can't remember what it was like spleen or something like that. Um and they did studies where the rooms that looked out on nature and there were rooms that looked out on a brick wall and they discovered that the people with a view of nature healed faster required less medicine and were actually discharged early.

[00:30:18]>> Wow. So >> what year was this? The 70s >> 70 I can't exactly. I should have looked this all up before I >> No, it's fine. But that we've known about this for decades.

[00:30:27]>> Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, uh, architects that specialize in hospitals, not all of them, but some of them are aware of this and are beginning to bring this knowledge into their design work.

[00:30:41]But, you know, if you live in an apartment and all you look out on is is um brick walls or roofs, um, it can be really depressing. Yeah. And I think you know that uh um we we we have a problem. We have a a psychology problem. We have depression.

[00:31:03]We have suicide. It's all getting bigger. Um and I think a lot of that is because of the conditions that we live in. And in fact, it's been also another study show that if you have green space in your neighborhood, crime goes down, school scores go up. Um, >> for those that don't know, what's green space mean?

[00:31:26]>> Green space is even if it's a mini park with some trees and a bench to sit on.

[00:31:32]Um, so even verges that have been planted so that they're green with with plants. Um, we we evolved in an environment of plants. um sometimes we forget that but our brain is wired to be comfortable in that kind of environment.

[00:31:54]So um we've forgotten about that and so we've just really thrown that out as a as a factor in human health.

[00:32:04]>> As far as designing with nature, psychology is huge in survival as well.

[00:32:10]There's got to be some thermmore regulatory benefits of understanding what bio region that house is sitting in as far as orientation, which hemisphere, uh, thermal mass, insulation, if you're in Minnesota, as your as opposed to Florida.

[00:32:28]>> What are the to me like the big three were one you said orientation, which way is your house facing >> cuz you know my homestead's off- grid.

[00:32:37]The other is insulation. Mhm.

[00:32:39]>> Get as much as you can afford cuz it keeps the the cocoa hot and the and the Kool-Aid cold.

[00:32:45]>> And the other is thermal mass if we're doing passive solar to absorb that solar radiation >> to reriate out. Are those >> the big three or would you add something to that for someone who's like really interested in designing something that's sustainable for their bio region?

[00:33:03]>> Yeah. Um well, look at it this way. So, um, power goes out, you have no way of cooking. So, you can go out into your backyard and you can build a fire. Um, you can cook your food over that. So, uh, the water system collapses. Um, what are you going to do? Well, hopefully you have tanks that you've put into your house that collect rain water from the roof that you can use uh for a garden um or you can use for drinking water if that happens. But the most important thing that I think a lot of people don't understand, you have to know how to grow food because if the food supply disappears, what are you going to do? If you're living in New York in an apartment, there's no food. what are you going to do? How are you going to survive? Um, and you know, unless you know at least the basics, like how do you grow a vegetable garden, for example, obviously you're not going to be able to grow um wheat and oats and stuff, but you can at least survive on enough food to keep you going. Um and of course if you have water tanks then you have water to actually um water your garden um that's necessarily only in a dry climate like Arizona. But if you're living somewhere like Portland, you you don't need the water because it comes out of the sky. Um although a friend of mine in Tucson um Brad Lancaster um is amazing. He survives totally on water that comes out of the sky and they have like uh 10 inches a year and he manages to collect enough to uh survive in in Tucson in the middle of the city and to grow food. Um >> that's that's an accomplishment, isn't it?

[00:35:05]>> Yeah, it's amazing.

[00:35:06]>> Do you know what his square footage is of collection and how many tanks he has, the gallon capacity he has? Um he has about a a thousand gallons um in a concrete um septic tank and then he has um uh another whole tank by he lives in a converted garage actually and it's a smaller tank but um it's enough for him to survive on >> but with the gardening too.

[00:35:37]>> Yeah, the septic tank water thing is for the garden. Got it.

[00:35:42]>> And one of my questions for you was, you know, was was the homeowner making their home self-reliant? You talked about water tanks, rain catchment, whatever. If someone listening to this podcast is on the grid, which most of them will be, right? We don't have the luxury of going off on 40 acres and having cheap and whatever else we might have.

[00:36:06]What can barring building codes and HOA agreements and all the other rules that get thrown in the way? What are some of the things someone can do to make their home more self-reliant? You you said maybe water tanks with roof catchment.

[00:36:22]You've mentioned photocheck panels, which could be probably grid tie-in, >> right, with maybe a separate battery bank for if the grid was gone. We've mentioned cocking around windows, any big spaces. We mentioned maybe adding some insulation, replacing windows if they're single pane, if we have the money to double pane.

[00:36:42]>> What else can a conventional homeowner do to make their home more resilient in a time of change to make it more self-reliant?

[00:36:49]>> Okay. Um, I'm going to change the subject a little bit. So, we have evolved EOSA from sustainability to regenerative.

[00:37:00]In other words, we're trying now to look at how can we make regenerative design.

[00:37:08]And what regenerative design is, it's about how do you create uh a design that's going to evolve, that's going to continue to grow and continue to change >> based on what factors?

[00:37:23]>> Based on several factors. uh for example, sustainability is really great, but it's only I think the beginning.

[00:37:32]Sustainability is about sustaining what we have. Um regenerative is about how do you take what we have and make it richer and make it more productive, make it more um um I don't know what else, but make it more of what it is. Um and that relies on a thing called community. Um so if you want to be self-reliant, say in a city or in a town, I don't know if you could do this in a city, you need to have a a a community that can work together. For example, if I grow tons of tomatoes, my friend across the street is growing tons of cucumbers and my friend a block away is growing eggplants.

[00:38:28]We get together and we exchange them.

[00:38:30]I've got so many of these. You want some of these? You want some of that? So we instead of relying on a um an agricultural technology we are and uh supply chain that comes from China or India or Mexico or wherever we create systems within our own communities. So collectively we become uh regenerative.

[00:38:59]We we regenerate our own um agriculture.

[00:39:04]We have skills in one neighborhood if you went and cataloged them all that are just amazing. We've got, you know, plumbers, we got computer programmers, we got all these people, but we never connect, you know, we're always in our own single family houses and so on. Um so how does design work to improve that?

[00:39:28]Well, creating public spaces and creating community spaces where people can gather and uh exchange ideas, exchange food uh like this uh farmers market idea, but you could extend it to be um exchanging tools, exchanging um you know skills, you could have exchanging all sorts of things.

[00:39:52]>> So, it sounds tribal like that's been done for tens of thousands.

[00:39:55]>> That's how we used to do it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:58]>> Yeah, >> we used to do it that way and you know that uh instead of having to hire someone to do child care uh you know the older people in the tribe would look after the kids. Now you stick them all into uh separate categories that you know the old people go into these uh what do they call 55 plus communities.

[00:40:23]no kids. Um, kids go into, you know, some other school.

[00:40:29]Um, so what we're doing is we're actually segregating our society. One, by wealth, two, by uh color, basically.

[00:40:39]I mean, we're still doing that. Um, and three, we're we're doing it by age.

[00:40:46]We're segregating people by age, which is a tragedy because um kids and old people get get [clears throat] on really well. Um uh Pam, my wife, she used to take uh uh her students in fifth grade to the VA and they would sit [cough] for a [clears throat] whole hour with um veterans and they got on like a house on fire.

[00:41:13]>> Wow. So the kids learned about what the veterans were and the veterans were all energized by you know the kids and and we've basically eliminated that from our society which is insane.

[00:41:28]Um so there is a you know there's a movement called co-housing which is sort of based on that idea that if you can build a community that has multiple ages that you know with the parents go out to work the older people can that are retired could look after the kids. Um and you have a public space in the center where everybody communicates and gets to know each other. And uh so building those physical structures can help make uh a community work much much better than it has been.

[00:42:08]>> It's funny that everything you're talking about I just from traveling and going and you know seeing tribal people it's like you said it's what we've been doing >> and we've gotten away from that. Yeah.

[00:42:18]>> So, it's what we've been doing for thousands of years and it's a it's a bummer. We've got away from that so much.

[00:42:25]>> And now it's even worse because we're all on our phones and I I mean I sometimes it drives me nuts. I walk around the square sometimes and everybody's on a freaking phone. Um >> Well, they're being social, Tony.

[00:42:40]They're on social media. [laughter] >> Yeah, right. Yep.

[00:42:45][cough] That's true. I have another um how could the United States or any place make energy efficient sustainable design whatever you want to call it a normal practice supported by building codes? I know that's a massive question but and you said lack of education is part of the issue but it's a pain in the ass to try to do alternative building things in a traditional building code. How do you what's it going to take? How many rolls of toilet paper are we going to go through? Because we tend to react to something only after there's a crisis, >> which is not good survival training.

[00:43:22]Survival trainers mitigate pain. You know, we don't wait till we're in pain and then try to deal with it.

[00:43:27]>> Sure.

[00:43:28]>> Do you have any ideas for softening up the building codes, for lack of a better word >> to make what you're doing a more normal practice?

[00:43:40]Um yeah, I mean alternative materials are always a problem to get uh accepted.

[00:43:49]Alternative materials are materials that try to be lower energy than than um standard materials.

[00:43:58]Um and the problem is not only regulation, but it's also the building industry. Uh the building industry hates any kind of risk.

[00:44:09]um quite rationally actually because um they don't want to build with something they're not familiar with in case something happens that they don't understand.

[00:44:21]Um so and the other aspect of any kind of uh uh new material is that because it's not vast quantities, it tends to be more expensive. So that's another barrier to to using new materials and new techniques. Um I think um the building departments are becoming are coming around to alternatives.

[00:44:50]Um the big issue is codes that are standard for everywhere. So you go to the uh international building codes and it it gives you the same stuff whether you're living in Africa or um Prescott.

[00:45:10]>> So there's no thought of bio region for where the >> build regions. No, >> which negates everything we've been talking about essentially.

[00:45:17]>> Yeah. To a large degree. So is one of the first problems just because as a survival instructor I'm not going to tell someone in Biji Minnesota they're going to have a different survival strategy in the winter time than someone in Tucson Arizona in January.

[00:45:31]>> So bio regional is key especially with primitive living skills where you're choosing out wood to make a certain fire by friction >> that seems like a big duh to me. Why in the hell are we not paying attention to the outdoor environment of where this box called a house goes still?

[00:45:51]>> Why are we not paying attention to that?

[00:45:52]>> We're not paying attention cuz we don't we don't actually um [clears throat] see nature anymore.

[00:46:00]>> The people that are making all these rules live in cities. They're not uh they're not aware of the nuances of bio regionalism. They don't understand that uh building a house in in Minnesota and building a house in Arizona are two totally different things. Um because we've come up with this standard model stick frame stucco or wood siding um you know tiles for the roof [snorts] um and then pump in energy. So why would we want to do anything different in Minnesota than we do in Arizona? If you look at it from a sustainable point of view is, you know, you'd probably use adobe in Arizona, especially in the desert areas because it's a it's a traditional material. It works really well in very hot, dry climates.

[00:47:01]In Minnesota, massive insulation would be what you want to do. So you maybe do double stud walls um and put in massive amounts of insulation.

[00:47:13]Um so there's a whole different um approach to architecture depending on which region you are living in. And you know what we've been doing is we've been hiring people from um you know east coast big architects to do buildings in Phoenix. And the prime example is the the federal courthouse in Phoenix. It's like a greenhouse.

[00:47:41][laughter] Um and then they try and call it, you know, and I they're using sustainable ways of cooling it. Um which is like misting the big interior spaces which >> because it was built improperly to begin with.

[00:47:56]>> Yeah. Because the guy didn't understand the climate.

[00:47:59]>> He's in the D. Yeah. Unfortunately, I've I've been in that building >> and felt the the ramifications of that poor design.

[00:48:07]>> Yeah.

[00:48:08]>> So, um, [clears throat] from a grid down survival aspect, cuz you you know what I do? I love survival skills.

[00:48:18]>> Meaning the home is now without power.

[00:48:21]In your opinion, what are the most vulnerable aspects of a home in a grid down situation? Maybe that's an obvious question, but very rarely do we have a chance to ask an architect who's been involved in sustainable regenerative design for decades. Grid down what's going to hurt the most to the occupants?

[00:48:40]>> Well, it depends what your energy system is. One, um, so if you've [clears throat] got a a gas stove, it's probably got electronic uh ignition system. Um, you can probably still heat, cook with that electric stove, you're done. Uh, you can't cook anything. You can't boil water. Can't do any of that. The vulnerability is um, say the power goes out in Phoenix for 3 days. Uh, it's 110 outside.

[00:49:17]If your building is not insulated, you're gonna cook basically. Um, so, uh, and the big issue in Phoenix is is the temperature going down enough at light to be able to cool off your building at nighttime cuz then you could open your windows at night, let the cooler air come in, uh, close them in the day, keep that cool in if you've got some mass in your building. Well, there's so much thermal mass in the city, they're losing that, aren't they? It's not really cooling down at night anymore.

[00:49:50]>> Yeah, that's the big issue. And it's something again, it's like taking a mallet and hitting yourself on the head, you know? Let's get rid of nature, put in a parking lot, uh, and increase the temperature like 20°.

[00:50:06]Um, and you know, a phoenix is basically like a pancake. So, it's just basically a giant solar collector and then we pump in masses of energy to try and cool the whole thing off.

[00:50:20]>> Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:50:22]>> It It is. It's self-defeating, is it's it's it's just not making any sense anymore. But um so I think you know it depends a bit on your climate as to I mean if it's in Minnesota >> sure >> you your heat goes away grid goes down um you're going to freeze. So again unless your house is designed for that climate um you're going to be at risk. So thermogulation, water [clears throat] essentially later on, food, you know, um we know the dangers of that. Most homes are notoriously on grid.

[00:51:03]>> Now, here's a a fun question.

[00:51:06][clears throat] I can't wait to hear what you'll say about it. If you were to design a house to survive a zombie apocalypse, and I know there's variables in zombies, [laughter] at least they're all dead. We have that.

[00:51:22]How would you design a house to survive the zombie apocalypse? And we're assuming they're the traditional zombies. They can run fast or just waddle slow, but they're not like going to climb up. You're just like the zombies that are historically on TV.

[00:51:38]How would you do that?

[00:51:40]Well, it depends how long the apocalypse is happening. [laughter] So, if it's a fairly [music] short apocalypse, um it wouldn't be too hard.

[00:51:52]You just need well reinforced uh [music] windows and doors. Um because I believe zombies pile up and smashing windows, [laughter] you know. Um, but if it goes on for a very long time, um, you probably need to build in, um, some kind of, uh, weapons to, uh, to mow down the, um, the zombies. [laughter] >> You need somewhere to get out of the house, underground, come up somewhere else >> without them knowing about it. So, like maybe like in the base of a bush or something like that, >> Hogan's hero style or whatever, the tree stump [music] that comes up.

[00:52:32]>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz I mean obviously eventually your supplies are going to run out and so you'd have to be able to get out to scavenge for supplies. Um, you know, I I'm of the opinion the people that are going into survival shelters are nuts because if there's an atomic bomb apocalypse, um, you come out, there's nothing here.

[00:53:00]What are you going to do? You have no food, you have no water. It's all radioactive. It's like um and so you know zombie apocalypse if it were to happen. I don't know if there is any scientific evidence that the zombies Well, there are actually zombie caterpillars and zombie ants as well.

[00:53:26]>> Really?

[00:53:27]>> Yeah. that there's a fungus that goes into them and then controls how they how they operate.

[00:53:34]>> You're kidding.

[00:53:35]>> No, no. So, and anyway, so it's a possibility, but you know, I think once society is completely collapsed, uh the only way to survive is in small groups um with with as many different skills as you can possibly get together.

[00:53:55]So all your students would be pretty well um situated because they could just head out into the wilderness and survive.

[00:54:04]>> They have that skill plus what they came to the table with. So a couple different skill sets.

[00:54:10]>> Yeah.

[00:54:10]>> Going back to the tribe.

[00:54:12]>> Yeah. So I mean we we've got to acknowledge that we are a tribal culture. Um and and I think that's part of the problem is when we say, "Oh no, everybody's the same." It's not true. We we do have different cultures. It doesn't mean that we have to fight each other. It just means if we acknowledge that we are a tribal culture, how do we bridge the gaps between those tribes, you know, um and of course, uh native cultures knew how to do that. They all the tribes who come together to do a a power, for example, in Arizona.

[00:54:51]Um, so that um, you know, you get to know the other is not the enemy. And I'm afraid we're in a situation where we see the other as the enemy, not as a a different valid tribe that we could communicate with.

[00:55:09]>> Amen. God. Um, I have a couple more questions for you. There's a lot of greenwash out there as you know. Are there any new products regarding regarding alternative energy that you think are worthwhile talking about on this podcast?

[00:55:27]>> Well, it depends whether you mean um centralized energy or distributed energy. Um distributed energy is much more uh resilient. Um centralized energy is um vulnerable to attack if you would [snorts] um the utilities want centralized energy because they can control it and they can charge you for it. Um that's why it's difficult sometimes to get permits to put on solar panels on your houses. Um [clears throat] and um but a distributed system for example would be like a whole neighborhood with solar panels connected to a mini grid. So one person's panels go out, it doesn't affect the whole grid, it can actually draw energy from the whole grid until they get repaired.

[00:56:25]Um so having that small scale uh is much more resilient and if you look at nature and evolution you can see that diversity is a real um survival skill.

[00:56:41]>> Diversity means that um if one thing fails something else can take its place.

[00:56:48]Yeah.

[00:56:48]>> Well, how about since I know people that probably would listen to this are more kind of at least off the grid in their head, >> um something individualized. I mean, we have the photoics. They're archival.

[00:56:59]They've been around a long time.

[00:57:01]>> And I just didn't know, you know, I know you can get the batteries and the solar panels where you can have your own little >> uh thing going for, you know, at least electrical power. I didn't know if there was any new gadgets or gizmos out there that you thought were worth a damn as far as people taking back their power, whether it's something new about water collection or electrical energy or anything cuz >> you've had your pulse on this for several decades or should we just stick to the standards at this point in time that a lot of us know about with a few Google searches, photoics, etc. >> Yeah. Well, there are some things that people are researching and there's some breakthroughs, for example, in battery storage that could mean that, you know, you could collect enough energy uh and store it for like a whole year.

[00:57:51]>> Wow. Um so there's a battery technology is really booming right now because um because of electric vehicles and uh also because the grid is gradually turning to sustainables and that means that they're not constant in terms of their generation.

[00:58:14]So like photovite doesn't actually um create energy during the night. Although there are some new panels that will actually create energy from moonlight.

[00:58:25]>> You're kidding me.

[00:58:26]>> How new are those panels?

[00:58:28]>> Huh?

[00:58:28]>> How new are those panels?

[00:58:30]>> Oh, they're really new. I don't even think they're on the market yet.

[00:58:33]>> Wow.

[00:58:34]>> I mean, it's a research project in our laboratory. Um so there are there's that. There's things like uh windows that will actually create electricity.

[00:58:45]Um >> wow.

[00:58:46]>> The glass is um also are photovotayic.

[00:58:50]Um so you could have a whole glass wall which would produce all the electricity you needed.

[00:58:57][cough and clears throat] Um so there's you know that the research is ongoing. the the big challenge for all this research is how do you scale it and get it into the market at a price people can actually afford.

[00:59:12]And so that's the that's for me is one of the big challenges for anybody looking at new forms of energy. Um and of course nuclear is coming back. um which in my day and age was like uh you know something everybody was uh protesting against. Um but apparently these new mini nuclear plants are much safer. Um so you could have mini neighborhood nuclear plants. Um but they they're more new at neighborhood scale or larger scale. And the reason they're coming online is because of all the AI stuff, all these new gigantic um computer places that are being built to house all the uh equipment for um the internet and AI.

[01:00:09]They suck out vast amounts of water, vast amounts of energy. So now they're looking at uh using atomic energy to to produce all their electricity >> and um so Google I believe is using nuclear energy and uh I think Microsoft is too.

[01:00:32]>> How can people find out more about the EOS Institute if they wanted to check out a class or at least look and see what they're about?

[01:00:40]>> Um it's simple. My website is eosa.org.

[01:00:46]So, es ecosa um and uh it's got a lot of information on that as to uh what we teach and why we're teaching it. Um we have um we're offering a 16week program, but we will be offering shorter programs in the summer next year. [snorts] Um and uh the the center itself is moving to Denver.

[01:01:16]So it'll be in Colorado, but we are actually planning on the first two weeks being here in Arizona. So >> So you will still train here in Arizona.

[01:01:26]>> Yeah. And you'll train with Cody Lundine. So that's a big reason to come.

[01:01:30]>> Big reason to come. So at kosa.org.

[01:01:33]>> Yeah.

[01:01:33]>> Right. So I want to do one more thing on this show. We do a segment called Make Tony Twitter. And we have two Tony's here, but that's the Tony I want to focus on now. And what I have here >> is this Invisible Magic joke book that's bound to be funny because it says funny jokes. Yes.

[01:01:53]>> And sometimes you can judge a book by its cover hopefully. So, what I want this Tony to do is write down on this piece of paper, how many jokes with this pen, just a [music] number. How many jokes do you think I'm going to need to tell that Tony to make him titter?

[01:02:12]>> Um, don't tell him. Just write down a number. Now, these are quality jokes in this book that says funny jokes. Okay, so Tony, guess Tony Tony Brown has a number. Okay, >> Tony, are you ready to titter?

[01:02:28]>> I am ready.

[01:02:29]>> Okay, so what I'm going to do, you the viewing audience at home, you can guess just like Tony Brown did. I'm going to randomly take this funny joke book and open it up and read Tony a joke. And uh we got a number here from Tony Brown.

[01:02:45]So, here we go. Let's see how many jokes it takes.

[01:02:48]>> Make it good.

[01:02:49]>> It'll be good.

[01:02:51]Cow. What did the vet say about your rash? Pig just gave me some oinkment and I feel better already.

[01:03:02]>> No.

[01:03:03]>> Okay, that's not going to work. Okay, so let me find another one.

[01:03:06]>> Mildly funny, but not Yeah.

[01:03:08]>> Sports reporter.

[01:03:10]What do you get if your receivers don't lift weights during Monday or Friday practices?

[01:03:16]Football coach. Weekends weak like >> I get it.

[01:03:24]>> Yeah, that not funny. Okay, I got on.

[01:03:28]>> Chester, what are you doing? Lester, I'm making a longdistance call to myself.

[01:03:34]Chester, won't that cost a lot of money?

[01:03:38]Lester, nope. I'm [music] calling collect.

[01:03:42]Nope. Okay.

[01:03:45]Did that count or not?

[01:03:47]No. No. Okay, let's let's do it again here. Patient, I'm not feeling well and I'm really concerned. Doctor, don't worry. I've had the same illness myself.

[01:04:00]Patient. Yeah, but you didn't have the same doctor.

[01:04:05]>> Okay, that was pretty [laughter] good.

[01:04:08]>> We got him.

[01:04:09]>> And the last one, I was laughing at your failure, so that doesn't [laughter] count.

[01:04:12]>> So, what was that? Four.

[01:04:14]>> Four. So Tony was guessing five. So >> Oh, not bad, Tony. Not bad. All right.

[01:04:21]>> So that's Mick Tony Titter. We'll put that away. The reason Tony Brown is on this show is sustainability, regenerative design will keep us alive longer. Keep your ass alive is a show about self-reliance and doing more with less. When you can have a structure or building that works in harmony with nature, you are doing more with less because nature is that big battery we can all draw from. Not just for our psychological health, but you know, free energy, free power from the sun, catching rain. It's not a bunch of hippie BS. If you want to live longer, you're all living in a home, most of you. Make it as self-reigned as possible. It's important. Tony, it's a real privilege to have you. you're I really respect you as a person and following your heart all this time and and teaching the thousands of students that I know you've taught. Thank you for being on the show.

[01:05:14]>> You're welcome. It was great being here.

[01:05:16]>> Awesome. So, that's it for this episode of Keep Your Ass. You can give us a comment or if you have a question we may answer on the show, you can email us at keepyourass alivegmail.com.

[01:05:30]Stay safe. See you next time. Hey campers. So that's it for this episode of Keep Your Ass. Tune in next time and we'll talk to people just like you about survival advice or whatever floats your boat. Want to watch the only survival show on Earth created, hosted, and produced by a real survival instructor?

[01:05:51]Check out the Survival Show with Cody Lundine at the survivalshow.com.

[01:05:56]Want to take your learning to the next level? Please visit my Aboriginal Living Skills School at www.codilend.com.

[01:06:04]We offer field courses in modern outdoor survival, primitive living skills or urban preparedness to enhance your self-reliance, confidence, and safety in the city or the wilderness. Visit www.codyylundine.com today.