3 Signs You've Hit Clinical Burnout and Should Seek Help | Dr Jo Perkins

[00:00:00]What does burnout look like before the person realizes they're burning out?

[00:00:03]>> It's depletion on a gradual basis. Your capacity, capability, energy, and that can be quite subtle in those early stages. It's different to how you would normally be as a sort of baseline. It's not just I'm having a bad morning or a bad day, or you can point to why it's happening. Things can feel more burdensome.

[00:00:19]>> Can burnout even make you think you're losing your mind?

[00:00:22]>> An ADHD person will try harder in response to inconsistent performance cuz that's what they've always done. that further compromises those limited resources. It feels like you're losing a grip. You just can't do the simplest things assuming you're the one at fault.

[00:00:39]>> What are the three biggest warning signs somebody is about to hit clinical burnout?

[00:00:43]>> There will be a few indicators quite likely. So again, everything >> Can I have just a second of your time?

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[00:01:11]Dr. Joe Perkins, I am so pleased that I'm sat in front of a chartered psychologist talking about burnout because it certainly had a huge impact on my life. In fact, I think it's put me in hospital in the past. But all of the advice that I see on the internet and other places about burnout, the advice isn't very helpful. It suggests to just have a rest and to take a break. But when you've got a mind like I have, I can't relax when I'm doing nothing because I associate doing nothing with danger and someone's going to tell me off for not achieving enough. the only way I can actually relax myself is by doing something and by working. But often I don't have the energy to do that work. So it's a real problem that I faced in the past. And we're going to talk about the three warning signs that I wish I knew before I approached severe burnout. But before we get to those, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about burnout?

[00:02:16]I think you've in your, you know, summary that you just gave there, Alex, kind of encapsulated it. It's that the advice being that it's to rest because it suggests that there's it's about being a bit tired or merely tired, but that isn't burnout. So, the misconception is that if you're feeling tired, a bit of rest will do it. But actually, burnout is much more severe than that. Burnout is that accumulation of chronic stress and pressure that's been happening over time. So actually it's not about rest. Rest isn't the thing that fixes it. It's it's also the another misconception linked to that is that it's because you're not working smart or you're just working too hard.

[00:03:03]It's not. It's that you've been working maybe too hard in a particular way against conditions over a long period of time and you're not getting the rest in recovery. So burnout is is is distinctly different even if it's not experienced and noticed as as different by by us as individuals to being tired.

[00:03:22]>> So much of the advice is like just take your foot off the pedal for a bit, have a break, lie down, try and get some sleep. But that is such a stressful thing for me to try to do because I feel like my nervous system over the years has almost taught that to do nothing is a bad thing. And I associate that with with being lazy. And I and I wish I knew before what what it might look like, what what burnout perhaps might look like before I reach the point where I've entered a real crisis. Like what do you think burnout can look like before the person realizes that they're experiencing or approaching burnout?

[00:03:59]Certainly for someone well for anyone it's depletion on a gradual basis of your resources your capacity your capability your energy you will find things just harder more effortful typically and that can be quite subtle in those early stages but actually the thing that's important is that it's it's different to how you would normally be as a sort of baseline and in ADHD you know brains and bodies it can more of the same but exaggerate it. So more executive function challenges. So it can feel quite familiar but I think that what's important is that it's it's more pervasive. It's not just I'm having a bad morning or a bad day or you can point to why it's happening. It's a struggle to keep performing at the level that you're either expected to or used to doing because you can't access the same kinds of resource. So it everything just feels, you know, harder. You feel more emotionally maybe short-tempered, irritable. Things can feel more burdensome.

[00:05:08]>> You feel more resentment at things that literally a few weeks ago would not have wound you up.

[00:05:14]>> Gosh. Yeah. It's so relatable. And following on from that is burnout does it happen suddenly or is it a gradual process?

[00:05:21]>> It can feel sudden but no the the research would definitely kind of be a a cumulative based model and actually I see in practice and and the experience is it's a cumulation sustained chronic stress over a period of time when the conditions aren't changing. So no, it's definitely cumulative but it can feel sudden because if we keep overriding the kind of warning signs or if if things don't give us any rest spike the conditions don't change sufficiently that goes on over time and many people just hit their you know metaphorical wall and stop be able to function and that can look different for each of us that can literally be in my case for some of the clients I work with they literally cannot get up one day so that's quite extreme in terms of overriding the signals and then there can be I'm just not performing ing and then you know the impacts of that.

[00:06:12]>> So Joe, if the end result is one day you wake up and you just can't get out of bed but before that stage there have been many cumulative moments and warning signs. Why do so many people miss those warning signs?

[00:06:25]>> I think t there's a few different reasons. It's hard to decipher what's just general having a day of being distracted, struggling because you've had a big weekend or there's more going on cuz often it just doesn't come out of the blue. Some of those things you can kind of go, "Yeah, well, I can point to that. I've got extra projects on or that thing's going on there socially or in my family life or I've got this event that's happened or happening." So, we kind of go, "Yeah, of course I'm feeling more tired or of course I'm struggling a bit because I've got less time available. I've got more in my head, more on my to-do list. So, we don't go, "Oh, I'm in burnout." So, I think it's quite subtle. So, we we don't stop and pay attention. So, we keep on going through. But I think as well, another key couple of things that I often see is that we're not all taught to tune in to some of those early warning signs. we can decipher what is a bit of distractability and just um due to not having had much sleep the night before or having a bit of an off day or you know an exacerbation of our ADHD symptoms through to this is a bit more pervasive and this feels and looks different and it's happening across multiple situations. So when we ignore that because we're not tuning in and knowing that that that feeling is is something else, we keep going.

[00:07:45]>> And so we we we benefit from learning how to do that. But also another thing that's I think really important >> if we're used to showing up and having to do more and compensate, you go into that rather than thinking, oh, what's going on? We can assume, particularly against someone ADHD, if you're being told that you should be trying harder and that it's your fault, you take responsibility for that and keep on doing the things that you've always done to keep going. And that actually is such a vicious cycle because that's just going to make it worse rather than going, "Hang on, maybe it's not me actually. Maybe the conditions are not conducive."

[00:08:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think many people with ADHD, they feel tremendous guilt when they do try to take a rest.

[00:08:38]In fact, it's almost like they take the path of least resistance. And the path of least resistance is to avoid rest because that comes with the emotional pain, that comes with the guilt, that comes with a feeling of I'm going to let someone down. I'm going to be told off.

[00:08:51]So, they push through that and they do more work. And that just perpetuates them through this cycle which the end result is an approach to burnout which can often lead to a point of real crisis. And often that might lead to them coming to see someone like yourself. And we were fascinatingly speaking off camera a moment ago and and you told me that in in your practice.

[00:09:14]There's often a single sentence that somebody might say that if you hear that sentence that rings alarm bells in your mind that that person is heading towards trouble. And we're going to talk about what that sentence is a little bit later on. But firstly Joe, I mean how how serious can burnout become if it is ignored? For me, maybe it's about a step before burnout. Burnout will happen if we do not address the factors contributing to burnout. So burnout has a way, you know, that whether that is that kind of can't get out of bed one morning because you manage to make it to that point and then come to a shuttering halt or or or you stop functioning in the way that you need to. So that is serious enough in itself. Obviously along the way, the seriousness is the fact that people get ill. It compromises our immune system. We start to have anxiety, mood effects, physiological effects. It can impair our sleep. It can impair our relationships. It can impair our confidence.

[00:10:20]That has a knock-on effect on how we're showing up at work. So it has many components and aspects that can all worsen over time and ultimately it can lead to long-term illness. You know people being out of work because not necessarily the burnout has meant that they should be out of work but it can affect someone's confidence so much. It can mean that they have got to a point where they can't face going into work because they became so depleted and actually being in a working environment for them doesn't feel viable.

[00:10:55]>> It was about 6 years ago I was clearly with the lens of hindsight and awareness that I have now working through all of those warning signs. And as someone who is an alcoholic, >> that put me in a very risky situation because I didn't realize that with each warning sign that I was ignoring and each work commitment that I was saying yes to, I was actually teetering closer to that point where that internal conflict of I need to lie down, but I can't lie down because I fear letting someone down so much that it was almost like a catastrophic catastrophic internal dilemma that I couldn't face and I picked up a drink after many years of sobriety and that ended me in hospital with a nurse looking down at me and I she couldn't understand why I was there and I and I I I tried to explain it and I guess maybe there wasn't the awareness of burnout there >> but that's where it led me. Do you know anyone who has gone through a cycle of burnout or experienced burnout to such an extent that it has such a massive impact on their life?

[00:12:04]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, as you've just described, it's that pushing on through.

[00:12:07]And what I'll often say to my clients is none of us know where that edge for us is at any one time. And it might not be as as far out as it has been on previous occasions. So, we often think we we know what we're doing. we can safely, if we're even having that conversation with ourselves, keep pushing through. It's inconvenient or again, it feels so such a threat and risk to not show up in whatever way we feel we need to show up, you know, to show up at work. And as you've mentioned, it's not about stopping and having a rest. Sometimes it's about that perception of letting others down and prioritizing others over ourselves, but again, kind of trying to keep our our core self intact for fear of the rejection and letting people down that go with that. But actually for me what's um important about the kind of getting to that wall people will I've seen have a complete change in what they do. So you can hit that burnout in the extreme sense and wake up from that and go right now I've recovered which takes time and a process in itself and they'll say I'm going to change everything. They'll change whatever things have got in the way.

[00:13:15]That might be stopping drinking. It might be changing a job. It might be changing a relationship or how you're living, where you're living. It's so it can be quite dramatic in that sense.

[00:13:26]Yes, I've wor people that have just gone, I'm not going back into the corporate world or I'm not going to do that job creative or otherwise because I need more stability. So, it's about finding something that's a better fit.

[00:13:37]But that's kind of pretty radical because you don't just change your job generally. It's a whole sector for for people if they're doing it at the extreme edge. The other version I would see would be that that can be a real wakeup call to acknowledging actually what's worked for me in the past worked.

[00:13:54]It is not what's going to work for me moving forward and you can see the inherent risk in it because you don't have that luxury once you've hit burnout and going through that extreme experience to go well that makes sense anymore on the contrary is hugely risky.

[00:14:09]So that will often again it takes time and a process but it's looking at how you overcommit where you overcompensate what you say yes to why what the costs are to that and once you understand your motivations you can find other ways that are safer more effective at living life.

[00:14:31]But again, it will be changing boundaries, changing how you do things, not necessarily believing and acting upon having to kind of keep everyone happy >> and not necessarily, you know, kind of adapting how you see your identity and how you need to show up in the world.

[00:14:46]That that can be a profound change that someone would go through when they've got to that edge. It's like, oh, maybe I don't need to be so extreme.

[00:14:55]>> Yeah, it's so interesting. I remember when I reached for the alcoholic drink, you know, after years of sobriety. I remember that feeling so much. It was absolute emotional numbness and I didn't see it at the time, but looking back I can reflect and that's what it was.

[00:15:10]There was almost like a fear of saying yes to any more commitments. And I guess that was the tipping point maybe like there was one more thing that somebody asked me to do and there just wasn't the capacity to say no, but I also didn't have the strength inside me not to say yes because I was so fearful of letting someone down. Yeah. And it's it's a beautiful example of it, Alex, because isn't it? Because it's almost like you didn't have the skill to not keep going, but it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's like one more demand >> and you've ignored the the the warning signs, overridden, ridden, keep riding through the red lights, and then there's the wall. It's like, oh, I can't go any further. But it can feel and that's where it can often feel quite sudden.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah. the the warning signs >> clearly not but >> the warning signs were there 100% and there's three major warning signs that we're going to go through in a moment but just first talking about the straw that broke the camel's back like that was certainly the one for me it was that one final demand of my time that I didn't know how to say no to but do you think everyone has a breaking point no matter how well they think they're coping >> we're human you know computers have a capacity they've got a memory there's You know, we are not beings that can just keep digging deeper instantaneously. We can develop capacity, develop resilience, but that is a process that that's when we're being intentional about it. It's not just never ending. And that's the difference. This isn't about growing it consciously, intentionally, gradually, like going to the gym. It's it's it's like you can't just get up and walk, >> you know, 100 miles without any training. your body isn't prepared for that. So, none of us know where that breaking point is for ourselves. But, um I do believe that everyone must have to have one.

[00:17:03]>> And I guess that brings us nicely on like the three warning signs that somebody might be aware of that would probably become visible or they might become become aware of before that breaking point comes. So I think the three warning signs that everyone should be aware of and the first one your body stops recovering like why can someone sleep all weekend for example and still feel exhausted.

[00:17:29]>> This is one of the the kind of confusing things I think about burnout and some of the messages. I mean even if you can as an ADHD person slow down and rest even if that were a possibility because your brain would shut off which it doesn't.

[00:17:42]Actually, it's a misconception that rest is going to do it because you can sleep all weekend, but because you're not tired, it's that cumulative wear and tear buildup of depletion across all of your resources. Cognitive decline, emotional capacity been compromised, physical, that a rest isn't going to do it. Because when we're just merely tired, which we'll all experience, you have a bounceback factor when you sleep.

[00:18:10]When you're not bouncing back from sleep, that's telling you something else is going on, you know? I mean, often we'll have a holiday maybe where you might sleep for the first couple of days more than you would normally, but then again, you bounce back and you go, "Oh, I'm recovered. I'm now going to get into the holiday."

[00:18:25]>> That isn't going to be happening over a weekend quite likely. And it may not happen if you go on holiday. You know, again, I'll have clients that come back from the holiday and go, I didn't kind of hit that day three, got my mojo back.

[00:18:36]He's like, "Well, yeah, because either you've kept on working or >> this is more than just being tired before going on holiday."

[00:18:45]>> Is it possible, Joe, to to recognize if you're not bouncing back? Like, can you be doing all of the right things? Can you be taking the rest, taking the naps and not even see that you're not bouncing back? Like the question is how can you tell the difference between being tired and your nervous system no longer recovering properly?

[00:19:06]>> Yeah. So the there will be a few indicators quite likely. So again everything feeling more effortful in a way that it doesn't usually and that being more cumulative. So things felt like an effort yesterday and last week and but historically they haven't felt effortful. you know, doing the emails in the morning or feeling like you've got too many WhatsApps to answer, whereas normally that's just something you do on your your journey home or when you've got 5 minutes.

[00:19:33]>> That is a warning sign that you're not just tired. Again, waking up and feeling still tired but physically heavy.

[00:19:41]Feeling a sense of dread and overwhelm at what the day might hold for you.

[00:19:47]Again, the irritability that you might feel when someone asks you to do something that again, you know, historically wouldn't have necessarily felt ownorous or too much of a a kind of stretch. They're things that in isolation aren't a sign. In combination, they're they're telling you things are feeling more effortful. You're feeling more emotionally sensitive to being perceived as not doing good enough job or being competent and capable, feeling more anxious. You are doubling down on the compensatory behaviors. Those things in combination are telling you you're not just having a bad day. This is not you. Something's not working. That's the difference between tiredness. Tiredness, we might be bit ratty or tired or short-tempered for a day or a morning, but then we pick ourselves back up. We can laugh at something. something will shift our mood. We won't feel anxious or angry when someone's asked to do something extra, the one extra thing that you think you see, I I just don't have the capacity cuz it can feel so overwhelming.

[00:20:54]>> I think it can be just the one tiny thing though that can tip you over the edge. As I said, looking back, you know, before I relapsed that particular day, I remember feeling so fearful of being invited to a party because I knew a I wouldn't be able to say no and b I didn't have the energy to go. So again, it was that kind of like stuck between a rock and a hard place and the outcome was I guess burnout and ending up in hospital. Now the second warning sign, Joe, I think this is actually the one that catches people by surprise. You stop feeling like yourself. Is losing interest in things you normally love.

[00:21:28]one of the warning signs. It can be if we think about burnout being a cumulative deterioration, depletion of resources, you know, um it would make sense that even when something we would typically enjoy or may make us feel more energized, if that feels like everything is so much effort anyway and then to do that thing is going to be more effort, >> that can mean that we start to lose interest or stop doing it. The other thing can be actually if our mood is flattened and we're feeling quite anxious and depleted, we don't really care so much about things. Our motivation is lowered. So actually even the things that we know we like, we're just like, "Yeah, you know, if we love cooking, for example, and enjoying a nice meal or going shopping for it, the idea of all of that just feels all we see is the effort and and why bother? I just want to do something simple." So again, it it can often be a preservation of energy as well as not feeling the levels of kind of emotion and and enthusiasm. I will hear clients often saying to me, they start cancelling stuff or they stop planning stuff. And it can all look sensible and understandable on the surface because you go, "Well, it's just one week where they've done that and they had a deadline, but then the day gets longer.

[00:22:53]They're not doing anything for themselves and actually they're what I notice is happening. It might look like quite a practical consequence. They've they've not had the time to do something or they've deliberately decided to not do something, but actually they're preserving their energy and resources to do the work or to do the things that they absolutely have to do.

[00:23:13]You know, parenting is understandable, but it often means that there's nothing else left to give. Yeah, >> it's not always as simple as you stop loving it. There are variables and factors that mean you're not doing the thing you love and actually you're not loving much of anything at the moment.

[00:23:30]So that can be affected you actually the thing that could make you feel better if that's going to the gym or cooking a nice meal is the very thing that you can't face doing cuz it just feels and more mental load >> even filling the shopping basket online just feels like I I can't make a decision. So yeah, >> before I reached burnout in the past, the things that I was doing because I genuinely loved them, they were always the first on the chopping board to get removed from my life and I think on reflection, it was easy to stop doing those things because the only person I was letting down was myself. You know, if I didn't take my dog on a long walk or I didn't do that beach walk that I like to do or if I didn't cook, no one was going to be let down or disappointed in me because of those things. So, I really just focused my energy on doing the things that had a consequence of letting people down, which actually just pushed me faster into the burnout.

[00:24:23]>> The final warning sign, Joe, which I actually think is the scariest one of the three, and I think this is the one that actually makes people feel like they're genuinely losing their mind. So, the third warning sign, number three, your ADHD suddenly gets much worse. So why does burnout make ADHD dramatically worse?

[00:24:43]>> When we're in burnout, again, if we think of it as being that depletion of resources and ADHD, people are already operating at the margins of compensating and using the kind of buffer if you like for doing everyday life stuff. The executive function challenges already require that bit extra. So that margin gets compromised. That margin all of a sudden is is is stripped away which kind of reveals if you like more sharply your you know ADHD executive functional challenge executive function challenges but also you've got that it's a cycle.

[00:25:21]So things can be harder. So it it feels like we're being a bit more distracted struggling to focus manage time and organize ourselves. And again, it can all feel more overwhelming, but also it heightens the emotional component. So we can become more reactive, sensitive to those things and feel more open to criticism, more, you know, reactive to thinking, you know, why me? Why have you given me that? I'm feeling burden. I feel anxious now you've given me that, you know. So again, it has an it's not just a practical component. It also activates the ADHD emotional response. I mean, anyone in burnout will feel more emotionally vulnerable, but it will it's already playing in on those ADHD challenges that can be in play. But then typically an ADHD person will try harder in response to inconsistent performance because that's what they've always done.

[00:26:23]It's like, well, I've got to try harder.

[00:26:26]So that further compromises those limited resources. So the overcompensation kicks in to to kind of pedal back and and and meet the the baseline. You've lost your margin and you're feeling more emotionally disregulated. So everything gets further compromised and heightened. It feels like you're losing a grip. Sometimes clients will say to me or that you just can't do them the simplest things.

[00:26:52]>> Yeah. Gosh. I I was speaking to a a woman who she said she has ADHD and she was telling me that she had just come out of what she thought was a big session of a burnout that nearly cost her her marriage.

[00:27:07]>> Uh she said that she never saw it coming. She works from home. She was sat at her desk doing her emails. She had kids that were running around being quite noisy and that was manageable. But then her partner came home from work, closed the door, sat down at the dinner table. He was they were eating together and she said actually he was chewing loudly and she said that was the catalyst that actually made her stand up abruptly. And she said she picked up her plate and threw it on the floor like in pure rage and she said, "I want a divorce in that moment." And he was just absolutely takenback, shocked. He he didn't see it coming. He he was really worried about her cuz it was very out of character.

[00:27:50]There was no indication or clues, at least from his point of view, that there was anything bubbling up under the surface. And yet at the dinner table that evening, it absolutely erupted and blew up in in in everyone's face.

[00:28:03]>> Can emotional dysregulation, can that be heightened? Can you be more sensitive to criticism as you approach burnout?

[00:28:11]>> Absolutely. Because and actually what's interesting in that particular example, Alex, cuz I'm sure it may have surprised that person as well, you know, that that and why would you not associate it with the fact that it's your husband? And actually, it's it's >> highly unlikely to be that. I mean, that might also be an issue that attention, but my hunch is that again, a lot of people will talk to me about their head feeling like it's a bit on fire or fizzy or just really sensitive, lights brighter. So again, that sensory overload. So again, the chewing that that your, you know, person you're talking about reacted to was probably again that straw that broke the camel's back that was just snap.

[00:28:54]But actually, if we're feeling like we're not doing what we're meant to be doing, and we're really struggling despite how we're appearing to the outside world, but it's taking more and more effort to stand still and do the same, that's going to heighten our anxiety. So we may be more hypervigilant to people criticizing us looking for evidence and what it you know what it's like we'll find it. It's like oh they weren't really impressed when I did that or maybe I didn't do that. And again the overthinking that happens when you've done something left a social event or or delivered a piece of work escalates. So again, that that can heighten the anxiety and then you can see the likelihood that you're going to be more likely to be criticized everywhere and want to avoid it.

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[00:31:02]Many people with ADHD to combat that feeling of being different and having many early criticisms for perhaps being perceived as different by the world, they adopt a coping strategy, a protective layer that looks a bit like this, which is a mask. And do you think years of pretending of putting on a performance, observing social behavior and recognizing what is accepted by the world and what is criticized? That extra layer of energy that the ADHD person is having to put out into the world simply to feel understood. Can that lead to burnout?

[00:31:46]>> Yeah. From a young age, we didn't know it was masking. You don't know what it we want to fit in, work out social norms. Someone with ADHD may be more likely to suppress what they are being told is too much, not good enough, try harder. And hypervigilance, scanning, monitoring all of the time and that being a real skill, but also being something that can tie us up in knots.

[00:32:13]And actually, that leads to the masking.

[00:32:16]It's like, oh, that's how you show up in these situations, but not like me. So, again, your your your whole kind of identity is is wrapped up in satisfying what you believe at least is expected, what is desirable, what isn't. And without realizing it, it's about satisfying others or the environment.

[00:32:38]Again, rightly or wrongly or in whether we get it, you know, accurate or not is another matter, but it becomes a part of of existence really. So, it's unconscious a lot of the time until it's not. But it takes a toll. It costs something. It it takes energy. It takes attention. It takes cognitive, you know, energy, emotional energy. Because if we're scanning and trying to prevent a risk situation, we're constantly plotting and strategizing. What do I do need to do differently? Again, it's second nature. So, we don't know the toll it's taking, but that accumulates over time. And actually, not only does that have a cost, we're overriding our wants and needs quite often as a consequence. So, I'll often say to someone, you know, what might have contributed to where you're at right now? And they may not even be able to answer it. It's like, well, I wasn't good enough. I wasn't doing enough. But actually, when you really get to it, it's like, what point would you have slow down? What point would you want to say no to that social event? And they're like, I don't know if I'd want to go or not. It's just something you do, isn't it? Is is if it's the first time it's been suggested. So, there's a cost of not knowing what you like sometimes, what what is going to drain you in advance. there's a cost to not doing the things that might energize you and you know that you are going to get more satisfaction from. So it's it's kind of you know really profound the effect that masking can have.

[00:34:10]>> I used to think that burnout was something that perhaps happened maybe every 6 months or maybe every year depending on what you're doing but is it possible that burnout can actually be happening on a much shorter time frame?

[00:34:25]I can it be like a daily occurrence depending on what you're doing. Like one of the biggest lies I used to tell myself when I was running my businesses that I could go to two meetings back to back and be okay afterwards. And actually on reflection I think there was always this like daily period perhaps between the hours of 3 and 5 where I maybe had a little bit of a headache uh very irritable very grumpy but I didn't see it at the time so I pushed through it. But is it possible that burnout can actually be a daily occurrence rather than this thing that we think of happens over a longer time period?

[00:34:58]>> That would be a version of it. And I think it goes back to that point of burnout in itself is not um does not have a a recognized you know accepted diagnostic criteria because it's not something that we diagnose clinically as such although it's clinically relevant. So this is where the language, you know, maybe kind of, you know, got to be careful that we don't label things that might not be that. But I would say that they are definitely examples of needing recovery. So I think that where it's not a problem is if we're getting that 1 hour a day and we're not pathologizing that as being, oh my gosh, you're so lazy. You know, instead of saying, no, this is what I this happens every day. It makes sense.

[00:35:41]I've had that break. And then you treat it as recovery. give yourself permission to do it and actually that that isn't there and then getting compromised and compromised and compromised. So I would say that if that would then be what would be leading to burnout. For me that would just be kind of your body and brain needing that natural recovery and it's all good >> if it's getting it. Where the problem will kick in and it will accumulate is if the hour is not available to you for whatever reason or you're not using it to recover because you don't recognize that you need it to recover. So you put something else in. And that's what I'll often see people doing. They'll go, "Oh, I shouldn't be doing nothing. I I'll take on more or I'll start that project.

[00:36:21]And you disrupt that that process of recovery. So I'd say that it's recovery and when you don't let it be recovery or recognize it as being recovery, that's what then becomes sustained >> cumulative you know sort of stress if you like on our system and will lead to the burnout.

[00:36:40]Speaking of recovery and really the most important question of the entire interview, when should somebody seek professional help rather than just pushing through? So again, it will look different for different people, but I would say if you are noticing that it's not just tired, so you're not getting your bounce back and it's not temporary.

[00:37:01]So we we will all go through periods of being overwhelmed and it can feel quite fullon, extremely overwhelming. We may be struggling to sleep for a few days, but if we then have some rest bite, that will pass. It's when that's not passing and actually we're feeling permanently tired, really struggling to do stuff, and we're not knowing what or how to change something, then it it's good to talk to someone to say, "What might that be?" if you're noticing that your mood is actually changing and you've got concerns about that. So, if you're feeling higher levels of anxiety and they're pretty persistent and you're struggling to get those down, if that's becoming more obsessive. So, again, it's not unusual for me if I'm seeing a client that that's going into burnout where they may have had OCD, they know they've got OCD, but they've largely managed it, but then they say, "Oh, in the last few months, it's come back or their version of it has come, it's been active."

[00:37:53]That's when you you don't ignore that.

[00:37:54]That's your brain going into overdrive.

[00:37:57]So that would be a sign that don't ignore those things. You're it's not healthy or natural or normal to be feeling anxious at an elevated level all of the time. So you don't have to suffer that. So I would so the mood shift everything permanently kind of feeling harder. Um, and also if you're struggling with your confidence and self-esteem in a way that you haven't before, you know, and it's activating stuff that's kind of causing other issues I in your life and you're maybe withdrawing more, then it might worth talking to someone.

[00:38:30]>> I want to move on to some real tangible tips on how someone can recover from burnout. But before before that I want to go back to the question I asked you at the beginning and I I said when clients come to you is there a sentence that they say that rings alarm bells in your mind that they are approaching trouble what is that sentence risk of feeling frustrating it could be different for different people in reality because actually I I think that's the the the thing about burnout it is not the game for everyone in terms of how it shows up and what they may say will be, you know, their version of what they're noticing, but it might be loads of other things going on. But again, a theme that I see quite a lot will be everything's going to be fine after having told me that they're, you know, feeling dreadful, everything's a struggle, stretched beyond belief when I get to that deadline or when that project's delivered or when this family situation is sorted or when that's out of the way. And yet there's nothing actually that they're also sharing with me that that will happen after that event because you know there's something else coming down the line or that the other features are part of the the the issue for them and what they're navigating. That's always a worry because they're relying on optimism.

[00:39:52]There's it's like this the fix is some future oriented place. There's a finish line that you're going to get to and it will all be okay and then you'll be all right. that that finish line in real life is rarely there and actually if there is a finish line and it's about a particular thing that doesn't tend to be burnout that tends to be no you're at a stretch because there's a project and that actually will get quieter when you've delivered it so it's it's that distinction >> and with your clients what does the conversation of recovery from burnout look like because so far this conversation has been quite frightening like can burnout be reversed >> yes yes I think But first of all, burnout doesn't have to be an inevitability. That's I think and actually stress and you know breaking through some of our comfort barriers is highly facilitative and can be positive.

[00:40:46]So I don't want to be too alarming at all because actually it's great but again not when it happens too quickly or over a sustained length of time. So for me what's really important is the burnout recovery is it requires depending on where you are at on the um burnout severity it may require complete rest and rest may not be sleeping per se often it's about removing and stepping back from the kind of stimulation on your system the demand. So for some people that will be at work obviously we can't step away from families if we're parenting but it might mean that you're sharing the load. So, you do need to kind of turn things down and set back and then you can start to recover and heal. And that can take it's not it's not a weekend of sleep. It's not one week's holiday. It's it's time. It's time and gradually building things up again. It's it's like having a broken leg. There'll be a period of recovery.

[00:41:42]You take the cast off, but it's going to take time to get full fully back to strength. What's the biggest mistake someone makes when trying to recover?

[00:41:51]>> Well, I think the kind of thing that I will see a lot is that getting back into things too quickly. It's underestimating the the kind of extent to which and the risks a bit like going on the broken leg thing. You know, if we've got a broken leg, yeah, you the cast is off, feeling better. You don't want to go out running for three miles or 30 miles that day.

[00:42:18]You want to get used to gradually putting your weight on it until you're back to full strength. So some people will just go, I'm feeling fine now straight back into the same conditions.

[00:42:29]If nothing has changed, that's the other mistake. So it's going too fast.

[00:42:34]Mistaking feeling a bit more energized as being back and being too optimistic about that and not really tuning in. but also the um sense of not changing anything. So if the conditions, whether it be the workplace or the family situation or a relationship, exactly the same as they were before, you'll burn out again.

[00:42:55]>> I've got a surprise for you just before we finish.

[00:42:58]>> Ways of worry.

[00:42:59]>> Yes.

[00:43:00]>> Okay, I'm going to get excited. Every ADHD chatter guest writes a letter to the younger version of themselves and then it gets delivered to the next guest which is yourself today. So I'm going to deliver the letter to you and if you could kindly read that Joe.

[00:43:16]>> Thank you. So to my younger self, I know you think you're the problem. One day you'll discover that you were never lazy, broken or too much. Your brain was simply wired differently and nobody gave you the words to understand it. Please don't spend your life trying to become someone else just to fit in. Parts of you that feel different today will one day be your biggest strengths. Be kinder to yourself with love, your future self.

[00:43:43]That's beautiful.

[00:43:45]>> Wow. Very nice tone to to finish on >> and really resonates with the burnout.

[00:43:49]It does because actually stop trying be something or someone you don't have to be.

[00:43:56]>> Absolutely. I think it's a a letter to the previous guest's younger self, but I've no doubt it will be a letter to the younger self of many of the listeners and viewers, too.

[00:44:05]>> Absolutely. Thank you.

[00:44:07]>> On behalf of everyone grappling to understand their brain, Joe, thank you so much.

[00:44:11]>> Been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.