Renewing Islam… or Rewriting It? Modern Thinkers Under the Microscope | Prof Fitzroy Morrissey

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:02]Hello everyone and uh welcome to blogging theology and today I'm delighted to welcome professor Fitzroy Morrisy. You're most welcome sir.

[00:00:11]>> Thanks very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:14]>> It's great to see you. For those who don't know, Professor Fitzroy is the Abdullah Salah fellow and tutor in Arabic and associate professor of Islamic studies and law at the University of Oxford. In his book which has just been published by Bloomsbury titled the renewal of Islam thinkers and believers of the modern era. The publisher describes the work as follows.

[00:00:41]The book explores the evolution of modern Islam from the 19th century to the present day. Professor Morrisy tells the story of how Muslim thinkers have reinterpreted Islam to meet the challenges of the modern world, including Islamic thinkers, Islamic thinking about gender, politics, and history. The modern history of the Sunni Shi and Muslim non-Muslim relations and contemporary efforts to establish moderate and progressive forms of Islam in response to the rise of Salifi jihadism. He shows how over the past few centuries the insights of contemporary Muslim thinkers have developed and in some cases transformed the meaning of faith. Intellectual and engaging, the renewal of Islam is an essential read from a leading author and historian of the Islamic world.

[00:01:39]And I think it might be helpful at this if I just put up out of the stage. There we are. That's a beautiful uh book cover. I must say and I I know because I've asked you just before we went live.

[00:01:50]Um you had a big input into the design of the cover, didn't you?

[00:01:54]>> Yeah. Well, uh it's it's I have my wife to thank actually for finding the image.

[00:01:59]It's um it's an image from the Vakil mosque in Shiraz um is the basis for the cover and the design team at Head of Zeus which is the the imprint of Bloomsbury who published the book um they're fantastic. They did a great job.

[00:02:16]So I I always say to people this is a book that you can judge by it cover. You know I can't speak to the uh the quality of what's in in between the covers but I think the cover is very nice. Um so yeah >> well I mean having I do think that the book is very well written. It's not uh pmical uh and it is a survey and academics even though it is an academic book it's it's very much it's very accessible. I think it's readable for the general public um and you're not there so much giving your views although you do have them as to present a survey of some fascinating thinkers in the last couple of hundred years. and um we're going to focus um on that. But I I I want to just ask what is the core argument of the renewal of Islam and and why did you want to tell this story now?

[00:03:05]Yeah, thank and and thanks very much for those kind words about the book and certainly not being pmical was was an aim and and um treating modern Islamic thought in in a clear and as objective a manner as possible was really what I was trying to do which in a sense was um I mean in a sense it's a follow-up to a previous um more sort of general trade book that I published a few years ago with the same publisher, A Short History of Islamic Thought, which obviously as that title suggests takes a takes a much broader more sweeping uh perspective.

[00:03:40]And what I really wanted to do was go uh in more depth into some of the thinkers and movements from the modern period uh who I think have have played a major role in in shaping uh Islamic thought in the modern period. Um >> the title of the book um you know the renewal of Islam um is taken from probably the core concept that in a sense um is like a thread um that I trace through the various chapters of the book and through the different thinkers and movements which is the concept of renewal or or tdeed um which as I'm sure many of your viewers listeners will will know is a concept which is indigenous to the Islamic tradition. It's rooted in a prophetic hadith um about the mujad did you know that God will raise up at the beginning of every century or ahead of every century someone to renew the religion. Um uh so one of the things that I wanted to explore was the extent to which there is in a sense a an impulse a mechanism within the Islamic tradition that thinkers in the modern period can exploit and and utilize um by way of responding to the challenges um that face them in their particular um time and case and and therefore to explore what TED what renewal means um and um to show in a sense the different you know the wide spectrum of um possible ways of conceptualizing renewal thinking about renewal the different claims that have been made uh to be the renewer or that so and so was the renewer so that's what the sort of broad question that I was you know personally interested in investigating in terms of sort of arguments. I mean the book is not it doesn't have I suppose a a sort of big headline thesis but some of the more subtle arguments that I'm trying to make. Um well a is that there is this sort of indigenous concept of renewal within the Islamic tradition that is used by modern Islamic thinkers. Um, another one, and this I suppose probably reflects my own training and and background in the study of the premodern Islamic intellectual tradition is that uh many reformers, renewers, revivalists of the of the modern period uh have been very much uh sort of deeply immersed in the premodern tradition. They're drawing on aspects of that tradition.

[00:06:26]um they're they're engaging with medieval Islamic theology, philosophy, Sufism, law in creative ways. Um and that basically in order to understand modern Islam, you have to appre have some appreciation of that premodern background and to see how um modern Muslim thinkers are engaging with it.

[00:06:52]Then another argument um that I in a in a way I'm I'm trying to make uh again in in a subtle way is um I think there's you know perhaps there's a general perception among a lot of people that modern Islam you let's say from the mid-9th century to the present day that a lot of the thinking that's taking place within Islam is a reaction to a response to uh the west in some way whether it you know be um western political hegemony, colonialism, imperialism uh or sort of western intellectual developments. Um, and you know, I'm interested in in in tracing that and and acknowledging that and certainly that that's true to a large extent, I think. But also, um, I think there's a story to be told about how there is, you know, an engagement on the part of the more recent Muslim thinkers and a continuity with earlier reformers from the 17th and 18th and early 19th centuries. So there's a kind of continuity that I'm trying to show between people, you know, the people that I begin the book with like Abdul Abuli in Damascus in the late 17th and early 18th century, Shah Allah in Delhi who are writing you know prior to um the the period let's say of western hegemony um in the western world um that there's a continuity between them and later thinkers like you know Muhammad Abdu and others in the late 19th and and 20th centuries. Um so that's something that I wanted to try to bring out and trace those connections. Um yeah, why now? Um yeah. Well, I mean, you said I said that um in a sense this is a follow-up to that that pre my sense was that there was more to um that there was more to explore um from the from the modern period that I'd only sort of managed to touch on in that earlier book, >> but I think you know you mentioned kindly that um you know that this is a sort of um non-pmical book. you know, so much that is written, you know, in popular publishing, let's say, um, about modern Islam seems to me to have >> some kind of agenda. And I just wanted to, um, show how there is this serious and weighty intellectual tradition in the Muslim world that continues, um, into the modern period. um and to give a kind of um fair and and balanced uh overview of that and obviously I'm drawing on lot you know I the book is sort of based on a mixture of primary and secondary literature um I've done some original research for it but I'm also drawing on what other scholars have been doing in recent years so um so so there's also the I think um I felt that there was um it was worth capturing some of the um findings of more recent scholarship um and hopefully students and um you know general readers who want a broad overview will get something from the book.

[00:10:17]>> Yeah, I I I I agree and I I think I came away um struck by the sheer uh diversity of of thought that one finds in the the broad Islamic tradition. uh on on the one hand you have Iban Arabi and those who whom he has influenced and he's influenced many and then on on the other uh hand I was trying to avoid saying the other extreme but the other extreme um Iban Wahab and and and the followers of Iben Tamir of course on the other and there are many Gasians in between and some of the people who you write beautifully like Shaw Ali Allah um who you're right he's not reacting against western imperialism you know this is a bit earlier earlier than that but he's clearly influenced by u by Iban Arabi.

[00:11:00]He's influenced by Iben Tamir. He's influenced by and you get this fascinating uh personality coming about and and his great influence down the generation even to today. Um that scholars obviously reference him. Um so that that sheer diversity is really important to move away from these simplistic binary understandings of you know good Muslim bad Muslim. The good Muslim is the moderate Muslim and the bad Muslim is the the one who's the militant Muslim and so on. these tropes one gets from >> foreign policy uh uh publications so but here here you have a very rich uh diversity as as well uh coming out and there's a lot of detailed historical information um which I I I really appreciated. So I I think this also reminds us um on a slightly more plemical note that we hear a lot from Christian pmacists on social media and at speaker's corner and so on.

[00:11:55]But there there is a rich tradition of uh Christian scholarship uh on on Islam um which is much more ironic and much more nuanced and erodite and and the Muslims can appreciate without necessarily agreeing with all the emphases or or the views but nevertheless it is highly respected and we remember that there is great diversity in Christian responses to Islam from you know the one extreme the crusaders to the other uh like yours which I say is irreic and and aerodite and not see simp not point scoring but simply seeking to understand um the humanity the rich humanity that we we live in um and that Muslims are fellow human beings and we need to understand each other I think at the very end of the book acknowledgements you quote was it Marshall Hodgston who >> I think is a a Christian Quaker or something wasn't he in the states and uh you know and his his motivation for becoming an expert I know Jonathan Brown professor Jonathan Brown at Georgetown really appreciated his books um because uh but he was motivated by this sense of understanding our fellow our fellow man really.

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[00:14:10]Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah. I say in the acknowledgements that um you know I am a Christian myself and you know I I don't um sort of hide that fact and I don't think it's incompatible with doing serious and hopefully know objective scholarship on Islam and you know personally I take a lot of inspiration from you know quite a long tradition of um of academic scholarship on Islam written by Christian writers.

[00:14:42]um including people like Marshall Hudson who you said who was uh historian at the University of Chicago um sadly you know passed away very young I think he was in his late 40s when he died in the early 1970s um but his you know his monumental work is the venture of Islam which is this kind of great three volume textbook you know in a sense it's a textbook on Islamic history Um but um you know it's unlike any other textbook that you'll ever come across as very um you know he's got a very personal style which isn't for everyone. Um I remember when I was studying Arabic and Islamic studies was an undergraduate you know Hodgson was the textbook on Islamic history and you know had a sort of Marmite reputation. You either loved it or you hated it. But um I very much you know appreciated his yes ironic approach. I mean he he was very much you know I think Shahab Ahmed in his book what is Islam which which some of your um listeners might have might be familiar with um in a sense criticizes Hodum for this but I think Hodcham was very much influenced by his own personal Quaker beliefs which are found on the idea that there's this sort of universal divine light in all human beings and he um and I think he he wanted to sort of trace that uh in Islam and he you know the title of his book the venture of Islam is because he saw Islam Islamic civilization as a great sort of moral spiritual venture um a great sort of exercise in in in being human um in being human you know in a way that um you know recognizes um God's sovereignty uh and which tries to in a sense you know live about one's life and create a world in in accordance with that sovereignty. Um and you know not just him um another uh you know hero of mine is Kenneth Craig who was >> in England bishop in Jerusalem wasn't >> Jerusalem. Yeah. Um and well the call of the minouet is his great work um which you know on the one hand it's a Christian theological engagement with Islam and he makes no apologies for his um you know for for for where he sort of engages um not pmically but um but but critically and rigorously with Islamic theology from his particular you know Anglican um faith perspective but I think it's one of the best attempts by a western scholar to sort of get inside um you know to see Islam from within as it were and he uses the you know the um the elements of the call to prayer as kind of the organizing structure of his book um and others like Wilfrid camel Smith likewise um have done similar things. So um you know personally I think having a faith perspective as a scholar you know it can be a help as well as a a hindrance perhaps but but a help in um in studying you know another religion um because hopefully one has a kind of um you know a sympathy in a sense for um an a sympathy for for religion and and and one is prepared to take um theological ideas seriously.

[00:18:18]Um and yeah, I I hope that um you know, Muslim readers as well as Christian readers and and others will will um you know, will appreciate the effort to to to try and do that. Um yeah so uh yeah I didn't know that Jonathan Brown I had forgotten that Jonathan Brown was um was a fan well he speaks very highly of but he was an undergraduate I think at uh University of Chicago obviously >> yeah of course yeah >> there yeah he that's what prompted me to get the work the book because >> he recommended it uh so highly um >> yeah I mean one of the recurring themes in in your in this book you you you've written is the tension between preserving tradition and adapting to modernity to use your approach but by modernity which I don't think you critically examine this concept well what does this word mean do you in effect mean secular western modernity with all its assumptions about individual autonomy and and liberalism because there there is a paradigm operating there it's not it's not like science which purports to be neutral it is a world view. Um, showing has its own assumptions, but you never seem to critically interact with that. You see that as a kind of the counterpart the counterpart or counterpoint to um the the discussions and the arguments in Islamic revival and renewal. Um, so I just wanted to kind of ask you about that. Um, I know you you aware what modernity means, but you seems in the book you use you use this language uncritically, if I can put it that way.

[00:20:01]Yeah. No, I think I mean I think it's probably a fair criticism. Um, and you know, one of the reasons why I didn't sort of interrogate the concept uh in any kind of um serious way was I did want to make this a story about kind of Islamic thought in its own terms. Um and um and I suppose I also wanted to in a sense leave the concept ambiguous or um you know open to interpretation because by modernity I I suppose I also mean kind of contemporaneity like what is the dominant you know as wild calls you know what's the kind of central paradigm, central domain um of the day.

[00:20:58]>> He uses Fuko's term epest episttomy epist term from fuko describe this paradigm.

[00:21:06]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:07]>> Yeah. Um and I suppose for different the different authors I'm looking at you what what modernity or what kind of the the dominant paradigm of the moment is is different. Um but each of them and I suppose this is something which you know has always been an issue for Muslim thinkers or or or thinkers from for any religious tradition. the question of you know how to reconcile or how to um you know how to maintain one's commitment to a faith tradition on the one hand and you know particularly a faith tradition which is um you know rooted in uh scriptural texts um on the one hand with the the dominant um values of the of the moment on the other and I suppose the The context of kind of western modernity from the mid-9th century onwards is a context where there's perhaps kind of a bigger gap between you know the the value the reigning values the the paradmatic values and traditional religious values.

[00:22:23]>> But I think that tension has always been there to a greater or lesser extent. And you know, I think within this notion of the of TED of renewal, you have the idea that there's a gap between what you might call ideal Islam, the Islam that was revealed, you know, the the the religion that we can in a sense derive directly from the Quran, the Islam of the prophet and his companions >> on the one hand and a kind of actual or historical Islam on the you know, Islam as it has been lived out over history and and and practiced over history. Um, and you know, I I think what renewal is about is trying to reduce that gap so that you know, actual Islam corresponds with um with the ideal. Um, so, you know, I think that tension has sort of always been there. But yeah, it's it's fair to say that the the kind of, you know, western secular liberal individualistic paradigm that you're talking about is is probably where the, you know, the tension is is felt most strongly. And you know many of the reformers that I look at in the second half of the book from the mid-9th century onwards are certainly um sort of working in the context of the the the emergence and then the eventual hegemony of that paradigm and you know some of them you know the modernists are basically saying well you know all that is good in this modern you know this western modernity is is found in Islam.

[00:24:05]And I think that's the basic argument of Islamic modernism that all that's good in in wester modernity is essentially Islamic and it's found in Islam in its in its best form. Um and then of course you know you have um you know other um movements which um you know which in a sense define themselves against that western modernity you know kind of various kinds of salifism. Um so you know I I I do think that um >> oh by the way I like your your discussion about neotraditionalist thought you talk about and zuna and abdakimad aka Tim Winter the other place there the Cambridge uh university uh and and a few others and and I think yeah they also well by definition they're traditionalists so it's not just the salifies who uh seek to avoid uh capitulation to uh western paradigm that there are others in perhaps more in the middle perhaps who uh who do seek to resist it but not in >> you know they're traditionalist but I I think neo-raditionalist is a helpful label because the the neo suggests that they're they're traditionalist in a very self-conscious way that um you know that that it's a conscious you know because you can't um you know avoid the fact that there is this um western um paradigm of modern they're they're embracing tradition in a sense in reaction to that. Um and yeah, I would have liked to have um to to have engaged more um closely I suppose with with the neotraditionist. I have a few pages towards the end. Um >> but um and you know in a sense there um you know that neotraditionalism is is found in the earlier movements that I look at in the book which you know many of which are very Sufi they're very much immersed in kind of the Sufi orders and in Sufi ideas which I think is also true of um of many of the contemporary neat traditionalists. So they're they're not rejecting the the madhabs in the way that the salifies are. Um >> some some salifies because not all not all sales follow of course some do do the Saudi ones for follow the handy.

[00:26:27]>> Yeah.

[00:26:28]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:26:29]>> Yeah. That's that that's right. It's a good corrective. Um so yeah I think um yeah I mean I I personally um you know if you look in the in the footnotes you'll see that um when I'm discussing Abdim Murad um you know I refer to some of the uh these these fascinating lectures that he's been giving on um >> yes >> what are they called on sort of paradigms of leadership um in you know Muslim paradigms of leadership and um you know I I learned a lot from those and found those very engaging. Um so um yeah hopefully hopefully I've I've I've done justice to um to to that perspective as well which which clearly is a you know a serious um response to to this paradigm that you're talking about.

[00:27:21]There are some there are some people have said like the the Cambridge philosopher Hassan Spiker who who's a colleague of mine um that recent events I I don't want to get political that's not why I'm saying but it is related to what you've just said about uh Islam visav modernity um there is a a very widespread sense among amongst Muslims in the Umah um the recent events that the genocide in Palestine the ongoing genocide and other attacks on the Muslim world have completely shattered any illusions that younger generation of Muslims had and others and not just Muslim young people in the states for example had about the beneficence and the benignness of the western tradition with his upholding of human rights international law and so on and I I think I I tend to agree with that view that it's difficult to over overstate how uh cataclysmic this has been um and that the western tradition has lost complete credibility. Um, rhetoric may sound nice, but there there is a fist in it which will destroy you um if you're unfortunate enough to be Palestinian and so on brown skinned even and so on the racism and so on. So there is this very very um um strong reaction to what's going on literally in the last two years. Um and I don't know how this will feed out into reform movements. It's not like translating itself into a renewed salivism or something, but it it's there and it seems to energize an awful lot of Muslims like like everyone I know, you know, it's like not like a niche thing at all. And how this will impact these debates that you discussed in your book, I don't know, but I I think we have entered into a paradigm shifting moment in our perception, a Muslim's perception of the West actually. And um as I say, I'm not sure how that will play out, but I think it's a reality.

[00:29:18]>> Yeah. No, thanks. That's that's interesting, helpful, and and makes a lot of sense. I mean, I suppose just a few comments and you know, thoughts that come to mind.

[00:29:28]>> First is that, you know, I think that, you know, reflects how doing any kind of intellectual history, you know, looking at kind of the history of ideas, we really have to pay very close attention to kind of the historical context. Um and you know a book like mine you know in a sense I'm focusing on the ideas because I want to make them you know I want to show that there is this kind of rich philosophical theological mystical set of traditions. Um but you know there's always I'm always trying to bring in the historical context as much as I can because of course that shapes um you know how people think um and and which elements of a tradition that they might want to pick up on. So that would be one thought and I suppose the moment that we're living in now could perhaps be comparable in that regard to the aftermath of the first world war where similarly you have you know this you know complete and of course you know it's completely bound up with you know western broken promises about independence and decolonization and so forth but also the barbarity of the first world or for someone like Rashid Ridda, you know, means that they kind of lose all um sense of, you know, um where Muhammad Abdu, his teacher, had perhaps been more um more positive about Western modernity. Um I suppose the the the illusion has has been dropped there. Um so I think there's a parallel there. Uh and then I suppose not I mean not to sort of to push back against um your point but maybe to qualify it I suppose there's also an interesting sense in which you know if you look at now what the pope is saying >> for instance >> there's perhaps an opportunity within a kind of western um public discourse also to sort of critique this western, you know, this this this particular um paradigm of modernity that you you've described. Um that's really first of all right that's a really important point and I'm glad you mentioned that. I I was just watching uh Polio uh I think on Tik Tok. I mean this guy, you know, on on YouTube as well. Um you know, he's been severely and completely undiplomatically criticized by Trump >> and um and and Pope Leo is not having it actually, but he's not arguing back.

[00:32:04]He's not pmicizing back. He's not having a row with the most powerful man in the world in Washington. He he's saying, "Look, we have different values. You know, we're for peace, not for war." And and you're right, this this is a western voice or many many well not a western voice but it's it's a Christian voice um that is a counterpoint to this uh hyperaggressive um behavior by the US president and uh and that's refreshing actually uh to be honest to hear to hear this dissenting voice coming out so clearly when so many western leaders have been kauing to Trump and no he he is speaking out and he's not being bullied it seems.

[00:32:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know I think sort of connected with that is you know within you know certainly within Oxford where I am and um you know um a big part of recent kind of public discussion there's been a lot of debate about you know is there some kind of quiet revival Christian revival going on you think you think there is what is your sense as a a Christian is it happening are you seeing these seeds these growths of revival or renewal, whatever you want to call it. Well, I think on a on a personal level um and I've you know I I so connected to a number of different churches in Oxford and elsewhere and um you know I think there there is something happening in the sense that you you know you do see larger congregations and more young people uh engaging with uh Christianity in a much more active and serious way uh than than 5 10 years ago. um you know I think that you know that one has to then sort of um account for you know variation across different geographical parts of the UK and that might be you know Oxford I think is probably quite unusual in some respects um so I think there is something happening and I think you know it's part of the same in a sense it's part of that same reaction to the sense that um a kind of individualistic um materialistic um form of modernity um has has failed um and failed the societies in which they're >> living um and you know there is clearly this yearning for some kind of which I suppose is kind of innate within the the human heart anyway but a yearning for a kind of deeper >> uh truth and and and a more sort of um metaphysically rich um way of understanding our place in the world and also of thinking about how to you know organize our societies and um you know interact with one another. Um so you know it's a really interesting um you know exciting but I suppose also you know frightening time and you know disturbing time of course um for for many of these you know debates to be taking place and certainly if you know one were to write this book in I don't know 10 years time 20 years time it might look a different last chapter um yeah >> well hope you will have a chance to write a revised ending you know republications the book well which I hope it I I hope it does I think also if I may introduce a slightly uh critical point although very respectful um the chapter on wahhabism Iban wahab >> upon founder of so-called wahhabism not that this is that their followers use so much um in in the light of I mean I read the chapter and you know this is a standard view uh that one one reads in many many works that there you're not I don't think it's original research in that particular chapter.

[00:35:59]>> Um but people like Yasaka Dr. Asakardi of course um we discussed this before we on air I've just published a book called understanding salifism and he's undoubtedly you know he he knows the movement from within for decades he was you know the angoplans's pre-minent you know apologist and advocate for that kind of salify approach he's no longer ident he no longer identifies as a sal at all um but I'm not I'm not so much concerned with his biography but the way he describes the historical trajectory the origins of wahhabism and and the way it has been through what he calls uh various waves or iterations, first wavehism, second wave and even a fourth wave wahism and they are quite different and I I think he makes an excellent point um because you correctly characterize wahism in its in its initial iteration as quite often quite violent towards those who it considers apostates or non-Muslims. These are self-identifying Muslims who nevertheless don't agree with his understanding of tali for example which you describe very accurately and so they they essentially become legitimate targets for violent jihad and I uh in the Arabian Peninsula and elsewhere. Now all that is true but uh Yasakardi argues that um the the latest wave of wahhabism as he calls it is not like that and is not tac theory actually it doesn't seek to declare people non-Muslim because of some perceived or real transgression. Um in fact it's quite the Salafies I know who follow are very anti-tac theory um the the Birmingham um Salafies around espiring there's a big base of sales in UK um so Salahism has actually mutated if you put it that way and and the the current defenders of it are not always aware of the first way what hadism what it really like and sometimes attempt to whitewash what what it was really like then and he discusses this in great detail and I that that nuance that complexity and these mult the layers of the ideology could be something that could be incorporated. You know, it's up to you what you do. But um that that nuance is I think important to grasp to really understand the movement in its various iterations over the centuries.

[00:38:16]>> Yeah, I think that that's that's very interesting and and helpful comment. um that chapter is I mean the chapter is mainly focused on Abdul Wahab himself and I I read his work and I'm I'm relying as you say on um mainly on secondary literature particularly Cole Bunzel's book on what is recently published um but other things as well um I'm I'm reading also in in in kind of next to alongside um Asha, this Yemeni um scholar originally of Zadi background who um who who is a kind of traditionalist in the sense that he um is trying to reform Zadism um Zadi Shiism um by turning to kind of Sunni hadith um and they and both of them kind of adopt this important kind of theological um distinction this this distinction between two types ofhed that really goes back to >> um so I my my focus is really there on the on the origins of Wahhabism as it were on and his immediate successes and you're right I don't sort of continue the story by looking at more recent um Wahhabies at least although I do turn to to to salifies which I guess is a label that really only um gets used in a in a technical sense in the in the 20th century. Um I mean I think what I tried to emphasize is that Wahhabism uh certainly is is rooted in um in in in a certain reading of theology um and a certain approach to law as well. Um but but theology is is the main focus and it's a it's an approach which um which which really emphasizes inferring doctrine directly from the scriptural texts and you know if that's the case one can you know one can arrive at different um positions even than than the founder. Um and you know clearly you also have within salifism a you know a tradition of politically quietest you know a political quietism >> the madalies there >> yeah exactly um and which which emphasize you know this is about this is about purification and education and dawa and it's you know it's about imposing our uh vision of Islam in a top down way through violence or or through the state. Um so yeah there's certainly a broad spectrum um you know within salifism within Wahhabism like within other movements um you know I think what what is quite um striking um about Wahhab and the early Wahhabis is the the emphasis that they do put on takir on >> the excommunication as it were or declaring other Muslims unbelievers. is the emphasis which they place on this um you know concept of you know kind of loyalty to the true believers and and disassociating oneself from from from unbelievers as they understand it.

[00:41:58]um the concept of hatred and enmity with adawa towards the unbelievers and also this notion of secondary takia that those who don't declare um the those Muslims who don't practice our form of Islam to unbelievers are themselves unbelievers.

[00:42:20]>> This is very shocking. I mean I was aware of that but whenever I come across that doctrine it really sends chills to my such a horrible doctrine. Your failure to tack fear people means that you are an unbeliever. I mean what what a hideous doctrine I must >> Yeah. I mean so you know one of the the the works of secondary literature that I um that I make use of is Ahmed Dal's book Islam before Europe um which is about kind of 18th century reform and he looks at a range of reformist movements including some of the ones that I also look at and he's trying to argue that you know Wahhabism is not representative of 18th century reform because mainly because of this emphasis on takia which you know some >> which is not there he's not there although famously issued that fatwear these people and he certainly didn't attack them physically >> so yeah I think that's that's right and it's not there in it's something that and the other traditions that I look That's where they say okay this is where you know you've gone too far as it were >> it's you know other reformers A and Adris they you know they directly attack the Wahhabis for um for overindulging in tech fear and um and so this is you know an important distinction if you look at someone like um Abdul Zani Abuli who who you know I devote the first chapter of the book to he you know he represents I suppose the other end of the spectrum.

[00:44:05]His emphasis is on ten on thinking well of other Muslims. You know, you kind of when there's a question mark over someone's belief or practice, you take the most charitable view towards them because only God can know their intention, their their need, what's you know what's in their heart.

[00:44:25]Um >> so yeah, comes back to that point about kind of the range of um positions. But um you know I think I think it's right to say that Wahhabism is unrepresentative in this respect even though I think there there are some parallels with the other um reformist movements of the 18th century and um >> yes yes >> know for each movement I look at or think that I look at I always try and um I suppose give the kind of the in my own approach I try to adopt the most charitable reading as possible and think you what does the world look like from this perspective? Why might this be a kind of plausible approach? Um, and you know, I think, you know, there's you there's in a sense a logic to saying, okay, let's let's focus on scripture. You know, that's that's something which um, you know, I think many people can um can say they can at least understand. But yeah, certainly this kind of tack fear and and the resort to violence is um is very difficult to to adopt a kind of simple reason without going into another subject entirely the Christianity but the the parallels of Christian history, Christian theology are very strong in many respects. the the the renewed emphasis on scriptural ex Jesus and focus uh you know reminds one of the reformers like Calvin and Luther and Zwingi and others of course the rejection of uh the Madhabs the anti-madab again you might see that in in Luther's rejection of the magisterium and tradition well you know he didn't accepted councils but in some anabaptist for example um you can find parallels I mean there are differences obviously but there are parallels as well which are quite striking uh I I I thought particularly between Luther and Ibent Tamir struct structurally they're similar but at different times and different kind of uh preoccupations and um and the takiri thing as well you still see it today amongst more extreme Protestants I see it in speaker's corner when they will absolutely say Catholics are not Christians you know they just tack fear them so to speak exccommunicate them or don't refuse to see them they don't attack physically attack them today but in the past they did, you know, the wars of religion in Europe killed millions of people. So, um, there are a lot of striking parallels, and I'm not saying they're the same, but, you know, there is a a similar kind of human psychology at work in many of these movements in in both of these different civilizations, I think.

[00:46:59]>> Yeah. And um I mean it's interesting that you know contemporary European observers of Wahhabism you know people like Johan Ludvik Burkhart who's a Swiss traveler who goes through um you know Arabia in the 18 in the late 18th century I think um you know he and others you know many others they say you know the Wahhabies are the Puritans of Islam you know it's it's a parallel that they that they're aware of. I mean I think you can also like sort of come back to my previous point you know you can put a more positive spin on it as well. So um you know so so for instance um the idea you know that scripture should be made accessible to >> ordinary people. Yes. that all people are sort of equidistant from God is a phrase that I quote from one of the Michael Crawford who is in the book on Abdah. Um so this kind of egalitarianizing of religion um which you know you you certainly find in you know William Tinddale you know make >> I love the fact that you mentioned William Tinddale at all in in discussing this because you such a acute observation uh actually uh the sense of uh in fact you you quote both of them William Tendell's desire to put these scriptures in the in the hands of the plowman who plows or working man and and other Islamic reform is their desire to put the Quran um into into a language and translating it into uh I think it was erdu wasn't it um and it yeah >> they they you devote a lot of energy and they're not the first to do so but I think shallah justifies it in this way you know he he first translates into Persian which I suppose I you know I don't know how how widely ly understood Persian was among noted educated Muslims in in northern India in his time. But you know he says he wants to make the Quran accessible for the sons of laborers and craftsmen and then his sons um translate it into or the Quran into Uru and um you know write to Ordo and and Persian commentaries um on the text.

[00:49:18]And I you know I think this this is part of that same um impulse as it were as you see in Tindel and others to to make scripture available in the vernacular. Um and you know it goes hand inhand with a quite critical attitude towards Arisilian scholastic philosophy and theology and >> anti-egalitarian you just >> yeah makes things all complicated and it gets you know guess it's actually away from the plain meaning of scripture um >> and yeah so so I think there is a parallel and I think you know my one of my teachers um Christopher Meltchure who was um star of Um, you know, you're retired now. Is he retired?

[00:50:02]>> He's retired. Yeah, he's retired. Um, I I'm I'm his successor that we're in in Penrook. Um, but um, you know, he says somewhere that, you know, religious history, you know, whether it's Islam or Christianity or or other religions, you know, a lot of it is about this tension between a kind of scripturalism or what's called traditionalism in Islamic studies. You know, kind of rooting religion in scripture. on the one hand and rationalism on the other. And >> you know at various times in history kind of rationalism has a has the upper hand and then you know traditionalism responds. Um and you know that I suppose is that's a theme through the book this tension between on the one hand um a kind of more philosophical way of um and rationalist way of approaching religion on the other one that's kind of more rooted in directly rooted in scripture.

[00:50:58]>> Yeah.

[00:51:00]>> Yeah. So, I think my my final question really would be, what do you hope readers, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, will come away understanding about Islam after reading this book?

[00:51:16]>> Yeah. I mean, I think um for Muslim readers, I mean, you've mentioned the and you know, I suppose for non-Muslim readers as well, you've mentioned the diversity point.

[00:51:28]there's such a range of responses to, you know, modernity, however, understanding it. Um, and that there's this range of kind of resources from within the tradition and, you know, from within more recent Islamic thought. Um, that, you know, contemporary Muslims, I suppose, can draw upon um, and that non-Muslims can engage with, um, in a serious way. Um so you know certainly that diversity is something I wanted to highlight the the fact that you know I suppose it's kind of an obvious point to many people but I think it bears worth saying that you know Islamic serious Islamic thinking doesn't just stop with or you know or whoever you whoever you like in the medieval period um you know there there are sort of intellectual giant of of the modern period as well that I think are certainly worth take you know reading very closely and and engaging with very seriously. people like Sha Allah um you know people like you know um like Abdu um and many others. Um so you know to to emphasize that there is a you know really rich and um in many ways creative um but also in a sense kind of traditionally grounded um uh body of um thought within modern Islam.

[00:53:07]Um, so I think those would probably be the two >> main things, but you know, hopefully, you know, it's quite nice also when you when you get responses from readers and you um, you know, you learn that they they've taken something that you hadn't thought of as the as the author. Um, but you know, my own interest, you know, I'm my background is really in the study of Sufism and and also I do a lot of teaching on Islamic law. Um, so I suppose I've kind of I wanted to highlight the fact that Sufism is still an important >> feature of modern Islamic thought and just because you know you have these reformist movements you know often we think you know premodern Islam is very Sufi and then kind of these reformers come away and come along and sort of attack suism and and want to sweep things away. Um but you know many of the reformers kind of they root their claims to be doing renewal in mystical experiences.

[00:54:13]They're you know engaging with Sufi doctrinal and metaphysical concepts. Um so I wanted to highlight that um I wanted to highlight that there is this kind of um this a rich tradition of legal thought in Islam that that these modern reformers are also engaging with. Um but yeah, I hope I I hope readers will um will find things that are of kind of particular interest to them that they can um that that they can draw upon and um and yeah, would be nice to continue the conversation with with them.

[00:54:51]>> No, I and I'm grateful. I I do recommend it. Um the link is in the description below if you wish to uh purchase it. uh you can buy it from the usual outlets like Amazon and so on but Bloomsbury is the publisher and you can get uh get it directly from them. I think it's discounted at least the hardback and the audio book are discounted I think.

[00:55:12]>> Yeah. And I I read the audio book so if you want to >> or Okay. Um no I think it's a very pleasant book. That's not not me damning you with fake pleas. I mean it's it's not a harsh book. It's not as book. Um and you do regularly attempt to see the world through those eyes or the particular author you're looking at or school of thought without obviously endorsing it but there's a sense of you know there's the humanity breathing through it and and that's exemplified uh in the cover in a way that has that sort of um lightness about it even though it is a serious academic work that is accessible it's not turis I'm trying to say so I I I do recommend it and and I do commend you as as a Christian academic for writing a book in this ironic way um in this in these days of resurgent so-called Christian nationalism which I think is an oxymoron but hey um you know it's good to recognize that Christianity has its diversity which has always had anyway uh and that there are um voices friendly voices that seek to understand rather than destroy and uh these days we need more of those voices uh not not less um so I I'm very grateful indeed for your time thank you very much uh Fitzroy and your work and uh long may it continue. I look forward to reading uh your future books inshallah. Um so yeah, I guess um do you have anything else to say? But I'm very grateful if you're coming.

[00:56:37]>> No, just thanks thanks very much. It's been fun and um you know, thank you for engaging with the book so closely and um yeah, thanks for having me on. It's it's been a real pleasure.

[00:56:49]>> Likewise. Thank you very much. Until next time. Salaamikum.

[00:56:52]>> Thanks. Salam. Bye.