GENERAL LESHABANE’S EXPLOSIVE TESTIMONY REVEALS ALOT ABOUT ADVOCATE BALOYI AND HIS INTEGRITY OR LACK

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[00:00:00]You know, three issues arising from the paragraph that you've read. The first one is that earlier on you said the fact that Constable Zungu says in his affidavit that you undertook to follow up the information and appoint detectives.

[00:00:16]You said you were uh inferring that he's referring to your tenure as uh at at at province as the acting um deputy commissioner for detectives. You remember that?

[00:00:27]I do I I I remember that, my lord, but don't forget he said when I was the head I informed me when I was the head of the detectives. Yes, but he he made I'm sorry. Sorry. Yes. Yeah, go go.

[00:00:38]Learner, can we >> Let's give Mr. Jonas the opportunity to interpret. Jonas has everybody walking on eggshells because of his rights to interpret in a very safe environment because he feels attacked by the fifth accused who asked him to leave and someone left in the comment section, Jonas is back because no other court could take him. There was no room at the inn for Jonas.

[00:01:05]So, he came back and demanded an apology from the accused and that they retract their request for him to recuse himself.

[00:01:15]But then someone also put this in the comment section and I thought this is a valid comment.

[00:01:21]How is it Jonas didn't apologize to the accused for his behavior including the witness because Jonas isn't innocent here and I don't know why they're treating him like the last born. I really don't know, but something I guess without Jonas the case can't move on. I guess they have to rub his ego, but at the end of the day now we even have Georgie Brad George also apologizing to Jonas.

[00:01:50]In my opinion, from where I am sitting, this is ridiculous.

[00:01:54]This is absolutely ridiculous, but you already know it was a tough day for advocate George Baloyi. It was a very tough day because he had a tough crowd inside parity within the witness box.

[00:02:10]Because my general said I don't care.

[00:02:13]I'm here to put everything on the record including what happened in >> [music] >> your office. Hello everybody, welcome back to another great edition from your host of course witness you and I confirm my presence on behalf of I stand by my statement.

[00:02:30]I also confirm my presence on behalf of it's a blue lie my lord.

[00:02:35]>> [laughter] >> And I also confirm my presence on behalf of I'm not afraid of death.

[00:02:42]But >> [snorts] >> I have five bodyguards and a driver for my V12 engine and I'm also here to confirm my presence on behalf of You don't get to choose which interpreter you want. You will not get Mr. J. M. Buthelezi.

[00:03:03]I've said too much. Let's get back to advocate George Baloyi and the general shall we? Please make sure you're subscribed absolutely brings me joy.

[00:03:11]Let's go. But general you agree he makes it abundantly clear towards the end of paragraph nine that you were no longer at province and you were now the cluster commander. Do you agree? I I want to say to the court that uh My lord I'm here as an old man.

[00:03:34]>> [laughter] >> And I tried to convince the advocate long time in the consultation that please you are being misled but here at court is the last place where I'll try to call the truth.

[00:03:46]My lord, the reason is that here in paragraph number nine Zungu is saying very clearly uh I got hold of the cell numbers of General Sibani who was uh, the then head of the detectives in Gauteng. My Lord, he said this after the last paragraph of number eight where he talked about uh, 26 October 2014.

[00:04:07]General, um just perhaps to move on. Do you agree that in the last paragraph he refers to your um, capacity then as the cluster head?

[00:04:19]Often Mesa?

[00:04:21]But but you cannot read read the whole paragraph to get the whole information.

[00:04:26]When I was the head of the cluster, I was not the head of the detectives in the province. So we leave it at that. Do you agree that there's no reference to 2014 in the paragraph that you've read?

[00:04:38]My uh, my Lord, I want to say uh, when you read the last paragraph of of number eight, after that he went straight to say, I got hold of the phone numbers of General Sibani. Yes, in the paragraph number number number nine, he didn't mention that. But he's talking about, you know, flow of information and my Lord.

[00:04:55]You know what the irony is? As Advocate Judge Baloyi and my General, General Leshabane, argue about sentencing structure, paragraph eight talks about 2014 and then the flow of information he dives into 20 >> [laughter] >> into paragraph nine.

[00:05:15]Guys, I couldn't stop laughing in this portion because I'm like, what are they arguing about exactly? Like, what is the bone of contention, Advocate Judge Baloyi?

[00:05:23]You know, Mr. Interpreter is right there who is a linguistics man. He can actually solve this dilemma here because clearly Advocate Judge Baloyi and the General are not on the same page. The General is refusing and saying, "No damn way. I, when I was cluster commander, I was not head of detectives. So I know exactly when this was. I have to stand with the general. Not because I'm team defense, but simply because I think he is in a better position to tell us what position he was and in which year. Don't you think? I think advocate Judge Motloung can let this go in the name of progress.

[00:06:06]Okay? Cuz this is the sense of Mayiwa trial. It is not an inquiry.

[00:06:12]On the Khulekani Constable Sizwe Zungu's statement affidavit language, then we need to get English language practitioners to come and then we'll also have to get, you know, honor dearly >> [laughter] >> You know what? Let me let it go. Let me take my own advice and let this go. Let's get to the next part.

[00:06:34]>> So, we're not going to repeat what we said about your inferential reasoning, but thirdly, do you agree that the events that you mentioned in that paragraph happened in 2018 that regarding your arrest of accused number one?

[00:06:49]I I My lord, again, I talked about 2019. He is talking about 2018 and 19 because he was misleading you with the arrest was made in 2019. Yes. It was not 2018.

[00:07:11]Yes.

[00:07:14]Yes. It was 2018, sir. That's what we are positing to that you agree that the information that he mentions there happened in 2019.

[00:07:22]My lord, the what happened here in in 2019, he never talked about what he's saying about Yena.

[00:07:36]Because, my lord, he says clearly uh I got hold of the cell phone numbers of General Shabalala who was the head of detectives in Gauteng. I called and informed him that I have information about the murder of Senzo Meyiwa. This one I was not the head of of Gauteng by that time, but in 2019 he called me, but my lord, he never spoke about this in 2019.

[00:07:58]He's lying, my lord.

[00:08:01]General, the question that we posited to you is very simple.

[00:08:05]The events regarding the arrest [clears throat] of accused number one that happened on your own version in 2019. Forget about Yes, my lord. The arrest happened in 2019.

[00:08:17]Can we then move to a different aspect? Yes, my lord.

[00:08:26]You have testified that in 2020 Constable Zungu called you and indicated to you that he's been forced to implicate you in a taxi hijacking matter.

[00:08:42]Yes, my lord, I don't know what where did Advocate Baloyi get this matter?

[00:08:47]I know I don't get into trouble. I cause it.

[00:08:50]Yeah, I take a decision that will cause trouble now. I said in 2020, I want to talk very slow, my lord. I said in 2020 I will explain fully, my lord.

[00:09:17]It's where he said General Shabalala I have got a problem.

[00:09:24]You know, I've got a problem because now Brigadier Kininda is forcing me to write a false statement and I wrote that false statement because he wanted to me.

[00:09:43]And it was the Let me finish, my lord.

[00:09:46]>> [laughter] >> And Constable Zungu by that time in 2020 You know what? He was He was He was shaking. He was shaking and I felt pity for him. And he even said, "You know what? They are They They are saying you are self-serving, my lord."

[00:10:03]You are going to be arrested.

[00:10:09]You are implicated in the taxi matters.

[00:10:12]where the matter also happened.

[00:10:18]And And he said to me, "You know what they say? The arrest is imminent."

[00:10:26]I said, "Constable Zungu, please, you know what? I'm a senior officer. Listen to me very carefully."

[00:10:35]I know nothing about that and even yourself, if they are forcing you, please don't worry. I will inform the national commissioner because he's the one I trusted and also the provincial commissioner Mchunu because I know that if I text them to say, "Please listen very carefully, my my seniors. The constable is saying he's been forced to make false statement. And if they can go and check my SMS to national commissioner as well as also provincial commissioner, they will come and testify about this to say, 'No, I did inform them before 2023 when the case was when it was testifying or the statement was taken, my lord.'"

[00:11:08]I'm also going to say this slowly so that I cannot be misheard. Let me tell you something. The general General Lishavane, he said something so important. It's very easy cuz he was talking fast. Jonas is trying to get in there. My lord also um Advocate Judge Mchunu is also trying to get in there.

[00:11:29]Judge Mchunu can just forget. The general is not allowing it. And don't forget it's Jonas first and then Baloyi.

[00:11:36]So, it's a tough battle of the giants.

[00:11:38]It is intense. It is worse than the Orlando Pirates game trying to win done dirty, okay? But, wait a damn minute.

[00:11:48]Let's slow down the adrenaline, shall we? The general said, and I quote, "Somebody call Mr. Mkhwanazi to the front of the room." The general said, Brigadier Vusumuzi Ndebele is getting down page 283 of Paulus Sulliman's book.

[00:12:06]>> [snorts] >> "Has this taxi implication case that he wants to arrest Zungu Naiza for and he's forcing him to write a false statement.

[00:12:16]And I wrote the false statement", says Zungu Naiza, "because I did not want to be arrested. But, my general, you will also be implicated." And my general pulled out his phone and said, "Don't play with me, Kininda.

[00:12:32]Let me just go right ahead and contact my own commissioner, my bosses, those who are above me, and send them an SMS."

[00:12:40]Ladies and gentlemen, where's the section 205 of these two?

[00:12:43]Where is the section 205? Somebody get Pinky van Tillingham to start the download because finally there is proof of the cooking. They are cooking. Do you understand what Advocate Judge Baloyi is trying is trying ever so desperately to prevent my general from telling us the story because there's factual evidence, undisputed cell phone records. They're busy, 2020, 2019. That is not our defense.

[00:13:15]>> [laughter] >> Let's listen to how Georgie gets in there, will shall we? My lord, this is the only place where my last place where I can tell the truth. So, what happened is where he says here, there's warrant of arrest warrant of arrest Baloyi at the Misty Police Station. He said, "Please, Mr. Baloyi, make a plan and let me leave that police station."

[00:13:35]I said, "Where do you want to go?"

[00:13:38]He said, "Temba police station."

[00:13:42]I said, "As the cluster commander, don't worry. I'm going to assist you."

[00:13:51]I then informed the city commander of Temba police station that, "You know what? There's a problem. You know that Zungu was helping the police about this case. Please, we must make arrangement.

[00:14:00]He must report to Sebenza."

[00:14:13]Lastly, my lord, I want to say that I never had a quarrel with with Mr. Zungu. And even today, I remember I do not [clears throat] have any quarrel with Brigadier Etimenda. I'm expecting my lord because Advocate Baloyi never listened to me clearly.

[00:14:33]>> [laughter] >> The prosecution team have really briefed me sufficiently to indicate that there are prospects of success.

[00:14:47]The prosecution has briefed me that they are really doing their part and I stand with the general on this one. I'm also at pain hearing my general in pain that Advocate Judge Baloyi of the prosecutorially led investigation team that has a >> [laughter] >> that has a prospect of conviction never listened to the general. I mean, you can feel the passion in the man. You can feel the pain. I bet you he's been waiting for this day. Do you see why Advocate George Baloyi never gave the General a VIP invite to be a state witness? Because, my goodness, he has blown the gasket open.

[00:15:33]All these things, where on earth would we not have Where on earth would we have heard all this? May the good Lord keep the General alive to tell us the full story.

[00:15:46]Because God has entered the ring. That's all I'm going to say. I'm thoroughly entertained. However, this is a very serious matter. Very serious matter. If we have a senior prosecutor like Advocate George Baloyi offering generals tea instead of listening to them, what is this? A coffin?

[00:16:11]This is the last place where I tell the truth.

[00:16:16]General, can we ask for your cooperation? When we ask you a question, we want you to restrict yourself to that question. My lord, I understand you, but there's way I must explain for the information of the court because yourself, you don't want me to tell the court what happened. Well, you had the opportunity to give your evidence in chief. You've given your evidence in chief. It's now to us It's now for the state to ask questions and you confine your answer to what is being asked. General, just to come back to the earlier question, do you agree that in your statement, exhibit double Z double Z in brackets 11, you did not refer to this incident in 2020 when you say Constable Zungu informed you that he was being forced um to implicate you in a taxi violence matter. Do you agree? It's It's not in this thing.

[00:17:01]>> not I'm not agreeing about it because of I when we were in consultation, I informed you about everything. I I even said to you, you know, Advocate Baloyi, one day, even after 10 years, the truth will come out. And the day Zungu is going to They the truth, you are going to faint.

[00:17:22]>> [laughter] >> General, we are asking about your own statement, exhibit double Z double Z in brackets 11. Do you agree that there's no reference to the fact that Constable Zungu told to that he was forced to implicate you in a taxi violence matter by Brigadier Gcininda. Uh my lords, I Thank you.

[00:17:53]Uh my colleague Advocate Baloyi has been referring to statements as my father did. So, I think the the same line of question refers to that question because the fact that the witness does not mention any aspect in his >> [clears throat] >> statement does not mean that when he raises that in his evidence either under cross-examination or in his evidence in chief, that did not occur. But, on in what I'm saying that it refers to the same case that Advocate Baloyi has been referring to when the defense was asking questions to the witnesses. Thank you.

[00:18:20]And by witnesses we mean Brigadier Bongani Nicholas Gcininda who's on page 283 of Paulus Zulu's book Stop Me If You Can. And here inside the dock is the General telling Advocate Joyce Baloyi stop me if you can, but I'm spilling the beans. I'm spilling the tea. I'm putting everything on the record because this is the last place where I can tell the truth. And guess what? I loved it every time he said, "You tried to stop me.

[00:18:50]I tried to tell you, but you don't listen. You don't want me to tell the court what happened. And the day that Zungu comes to tell the truth, you are going to faint."

[00:19:03]Why is the General so hilarious in such a serious matter?

[00:19:07]Baloyi can't stand the General right now. If he thought what he was going through with Mntanzi was the battle of the giants, no, this is the real battle of the giants cuz guess what? This is a general and they cannot they can't It can't be. Take away his stripes and accolades and achievements from him.

[00:19:27]That's why Advocate George Maluleka is really struggling and ladies and gentlemen, that's why Judge Ratha refuses to enter the arena. He can't do it. His apparatus morandus doesn't allow him to go against the general, someone in hierarchy, someone in ranking because he told us he loves Gininda to the moon and back because he's a brigadier. Well, guess what? This is a general. What you going to do now?

[00:19:59]>> [laughter] >> Shout out to um Advocate Zwidelethe Mchunu with that throwback and say, "Uh-uh.

[00:20:07]No, Georgie, you can't do that.

[00:20:10]You cannot keep asking the witness the same question just because it is not in the statement doesn't mean it didn't happen. Come through with the record, my general. Let's continue listening on.

[00:20:23]My lord, with with the greatest of respect, be that as it may, I I think um my learned friend is misreading the case. All that we are asking, General, is does he agree that that fact is not in the statement? Um it it it's a it it's a simple matter of yes, it is in the statement or it's not in the statement, my lord. That that's all that we are asking the witness, my lord.

[00:20:43]Mhm.

[00:20:44]My lord, thank you, my lord.

[00:20:46]The issue is that I agree that I did not write this in the statement. If you can allow me to finish this. Remember when Gininda came to take the the statement from me He did not tell me about the the statement of of Zungu.

[00:21:06]It's me who told him that no, you know what because why? I know that people the police made some serious mistakes.

[00:21:20]I told him that no, even if I don't like in the statement here, but please take note that you that in in that this constable told me that you did force him to write statement.

[00:21:39]But I will just write the summary of the statement because he said just write the summary of the statement. I'm aware about it. I do I I never I sort of force him, but just write what what you think you can write. But I told him that I cannot say this because why? The court will throw this case if I can say that.

[00:22:12]Uh General, for the purpose of our questioning, do you consider this not mentioned in in in your statement paragraph double Z double Z in brackets 11? Uh my Lord, I agree, but I said it during the consultation. I explained this to you my advocate, but you do not want to listen to me. Um General, for the sake of progress, um we will move on.

[00:22:33]Um Can you perhaps just clarify the court when you met Constable Zungu exactly what did he tell you? Did he say he's got information about the commission of the crime involving the death of Mr. Senzo Meyiwa?

[00:22:53]Uh when? You didn't tell me when.

[00:22:57]Uh >> [laughter] >> General, I'm still in the process of analyzing. When you first met him I'm saying when? In 2019.

[00:23:11]>> Thank you, my lord. In 2019 did he say that he has information about the death of Senzo Meyiwa and who might be involved, but that he does not have the details. You understand that? Yes, my lord.

[00:23:28]>> That's the one part. Or did he tell you he does not have any information he had from uh Gwabeni about the death of Mr. Senzo Meyiwa and who might be involved.

[00:23:40]Uh General, before you answer, you agree that these two propositions are different. Yes, I agree they're different. Is it Uh just maybe to save time, your evidence is that he told you that he heard from Gwabeni um as to who might be involved in the death of Mr. Senzo Meyiwa. Is that your evidence?

[00:23:58]>> Yes, yes.

[00:24:00]Thank you, uh uh Mr. Gwabeni.

[00:24:05]But apparently, according to the state when Mr. Zungu, the constable asked you about that.38 special he asked you as to would this be the same firearm?

[00:24:23]Is this not the same firearm that you used that was used in the shooting of Senzo Meyiwa?

[00:24:30]He's telling lies. He's telling lies.

[00:24:33]I know nothing that I know about Senzo Meyiwa.

[00:24:37]No, he told lies.

[00:24:39]No, he was telling lies.

[00:24:42]He's telling lies.

[00:24:44]No, he's telling lies.

[00:24:47]No, he's telling lies about me.

[00:24:53]He's telling lies.

[00:24:55]He's lying.

[00:24:57]Mr. Mr. Mr. Gwabeni You you I see you're shaking your head in desperation.

[00:25:06]What are you Are you tired?

[00:25:16]No, it's just these lies that are being spoken here they are just draining me.

[00:25:21]Uh just explain yourself. These lies that are being spoken here just draining me.

[00:25:27]What do you mean by that?

[00:25:34]The ones that are being told by Constable Zungu.

[00:25:39]Are they the ones that are draining you?

[00:25:43]Yes. Thank you.

[00:25:45]We we we understand how you could be feeling about them, but please try to assist the court to the best way in which you can amongst others by trying to raise your voice. My So just to My lord as I said I want to try to be very very slow my lord because this is the last place where I will inform the court for the sake of justice. General I was still talking my lord. Yes, you you have given your evidence in chief. But lord We are now in charge of the process.

[00:26:14]>> Okay. So we ask you questions, you answer the questions. Please general.

[00:26:18]Yeah, but the thing is I I understand but I have to explain when you ask me because why when I was with you you never get chance of talking to you.

[00:26:29]>> [laughter] >> In my office in my office my advocate you were not there. I was with Mr. Zungu and I can tell you the atmosphere. I would you know what I was so happy because I wanted to sort of this case before I can go on pension.

[00:26:44]To say when he came he said General Shabalala the information I got you are right to say that now is from uh my uncle Gwabeni.

[00:27:09]And he said, my lord, and I trusted he said he trusted his uncle Gwabeni. The people who went there >> [clears throat] >> is uh Muzi. Okay, just low.

[00:27:26]And also Ntanzi.

[00:27:29]Yes, and they cannot lie.

[00:27:33]But he was he was not there.

[00:27:36]Thank you, my lord.

[00:27:38]This is a simple question that you asked me. If if if you answer the question, you could have been further down the the cross-examination. No, no, no, no, Advocate Judge Malema. We, members of the public jury, we don't forget. Okay, we've got receipts.

[00:27:53]When Kininda would talk and talk and talk and talk and you would jump up and down like popcorn to defend him and say he needs to speak to the record. Now that the general is treating you in the exact same manner, now you want to tell him about we could have long been done with this cross-examination. This is a simple question. Answer the simple question. How many simple questions was Brig. Gen. Nicholas Kininda asked? I remember there was a time that I did a video and I said, "If you were to ask Brig. Gen. Kininda, what did you have for breakfast?" He will say something like, "And then the cow gave birth to the calf and then after the calf, then they milked the cow and after they milked the cow, they brought the milk and then they went to check on the hen if there was any eggs." Do you guys remember that?

[00:28:37]Now that it is happening with the general, Advocate Judge Malema is acting like he's never seen such in his life. No, Judge Malema, you some patience. Grow some patience for the general. The same patience you granted Brigadier Caninda.

[00:28:54]We needed amplified here inside Parliament within because we members of the public jury were watching you. We see you. So, in other words, he said he himself does not have information as to who might be involved, but that what he was telling you he heard from Gwabeni. In other words, that Gwabeni was the source of the information. Thank you, my lord. There you are, my lord. I just wish to refer you to your statement that you deposed on the 5th of October 2023 at 14:14, exhibit ZZ ZZ in brackets one.

[00:29:31]Paragraph four.

[00:29:32]Yes, my lord. While I was performing my duties as a cluster commander, I did not participate in any investigations of the Senzo case.

[00:29:41]Around 2019, I was then approached by a Constable Zungu. The Constable told me that he has information about the suspects that entered the Khumalo's house and later shot Senzo Meyiwa. He mentioned Moses Sibiya and Tanzi from Rustenburg. Um and and please listen to the next portion. He further mentioned a Gwabeni who knew more or had deep knowledge about this case.

[00:30:09]Do you understand that, general?

[00:30:09]>> I understand, my lord.

[00:30:11]So, what you're saying here, general, in your own statement, you're saying uh Constable Zungu said Gwabeni knew more or had deep knowledge about this case. Yes, it's what he told me, my lord.

[00:30:32]And if you look at uh what is stated in line four, the Constable told me that he has information about the suspects that entered the Kumalo's house and later shots and Zungu may have seen it other ways.

[00:30:46]What you're saying is Constable Zungu told you that he has information about the suspects who were um involved in the death of Senzo Meyiwa, but that Gwabeni has more information, more details about this case. Do you appreciate that, you know? My lord, thank you that you are articulating very clearly.

[00:31:07]Thank you for that. Lana Yeah, sorry.

[00:31:09]Lana As as as as I told you what to say.

[00:31:25]When I wrote this statement, remember, already I've already had the information and I clearly wanted to know as to whether Zungu uh was part of that because in my mind I thought maybe he himself was part of of this case.

[00:31:53]The same the same information we're talking about, my lord, uh of to say where about the information is that he has information which he got from Gwabeni and at the same alleged is where myself and you and Gwabeni we we were fighting to say you mustn't say alleged, you must say you heard it from uh Zungu, not to say that you heard it from Gwabeni.

[00:32:30]You see, in paragraph nine of your I think Advocate Judge Baloyi can use that interruption or should I say objection for the education of advocate advocate Mngqitsha's notes.

[00:32:46]He can use that time to quench his thirst because I believe his lips are so dry because talking to my general it will drain you. It will take all hydration out of you because my general wants to make sure there are no secrets.

[00:33:00]Nothing is left un-turned. When I was in your office you wouldn't listen to me.

[00:33:05]This is the last place my advocate in the interest of justice.

[00:33:10]I'mma end this right here. Let me tell you if you haven't noticed I had a lot of fun editing this video. This was crazy. It took me a long time cuz I kept rewinding. I kept laughing. I couldn't believe the things I was hearing.

[00:33:21]>> [laughter] >> The general is a natural funny man. Oh my goodness. I'm going to end this video right here. Please remember to like, to comment, to subscribe. Can you drop a blue heart in the comment section if you made it this far? Blue for blue lies.

[00:33:36]>> [laughter]