Can His Arguments Stand Up Against a Vegan?

Added: 2026-05-10

[00:00:00]Do you, um, believe that plants are sentient?

[00:00:06]No, no. I asked a question as in I'll I'll as a bit of context I'll >> Okay. I'm I'm obviously not vegan.

[00:00:16]And I was just, you know, I've never really considered it and I was looking for a bit of understanding as to more the fact of, um, like where the line is drawn in Mhm. what [clears throat] what what animals can be consumed or what, sorry, not animals, what, um, life organisms can be consumed and what can't Mhm. in your ethical considerations.

[00:00:44]Yeah, okay.

[00:00:45]I think people kind of, uh, think that veganism is this complicated thing when really I think people are more aligned with vegans than they believe initially.

[00:00:56]Um, usually we tend to just even before being vegan value sentience. Like did you hear me talking about the burning building situation before?

[00:01:06]I did not know.

[00:01:08]Okay. Um, basically I think it would be obvious to even a non-vegan that if, um, there were like let's let's say like a pig and a an aloe vera plant in a burning building Oh, yes, yes, I remember the Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:25]It wouldn't it wouldn't be I think immediately like people would, um, save the pigs, you know? Would you Would you save a pig in a burning building >> Absolutely. over the aloe vera?

[00:01:35]>> Yeah. Okay. So already that's that's kind of like an understanding that there is something of value there that's not present in the plant.

[00:01:46]Yes. Mhm. So for So vegans, yeah, we we are we concerned with the experience, the sentient being you know, because then obviously if you are having your sentient therefore you're having a subjective experience then really bad experiences can be had and then good experiences can be had and we're concerned with that even in the non-human animal context, right?

[00:02:11]Okay. Yeah. So what would you what would you describe as sentience?

[00:02:16]Um, I just take it to be having a subjective experience.

[00:02:21]Okay.

[00:02:22]Okay.

[00:02:24]Like so do you think all animals would have a subjective experience? Uh, I don't know.

[00:02:30]I think some animals have a nerve ganglia. They kind of come in and out of consciousness or sentience. I'm not sure on the kind of like, um, every animal and the the classifications and stuff like that. But generally speaking animals who we use um, are indeed having a subjective experience.

[00:02:51]>> Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah.

[00:02:53]>> Yeah, like down to the kind of like nuance of who does who isn't a who anymore, who isn't a subject. I I don't know, but yeah, like a pig definitely is.

[00:03:03]Uh, chickens definitely are.

[00:03:05]Yeah.

[00:03:07]>> Um, >> Absolutely.

[00:03:09]So yeah, the I guess the question because obviously, you know, I'm talking to people and the majority of the world are paying for very bad things to happen to sentient beings.

[00:03:21]Um, and I don't think they're initially aware of that, right?

[00:03:25]Um, Yes. Where are you at with that?

[00:03:28]Like what's your current like consumption? And I'm not just talking about food cuz obviously veganism isn't a diet. I just mean like, you know, your clothing uh, your products for the household, stuff like that. Do they involve animals?

[00:03:41]>> Okay.

[00:03:43]Yes, they do. Mhm.

[00:03:45]Um, I I I I I don't want this to I don't want this to trigger anyone. I just I'm just being honest. Um, I would probably I probably eat a lot of animal products >> Mhm.

[00:03:58]in my diet and I would also use a few as well.

[00:04:03]I I Can you repeat the last bit you said, sorry, I didn't quite hear.

[00:04:07]I would I consume a lot of animal products I would say.

[00:04:12]Yeah.

[00:04:12]>> And then you said something after but I didn't quite hear it, I thought. Oh, and I would use a lot as well. Oh, you'd use a Okay, yeah. Okay.

[00:04:20]All right, well, yeah, I did beforehand as well. I used to like one of my favorite things was like hearts in rice, um, you know, I consumed a lot of animals and their secretions. Um, but then, yeah, it comes to a point where you recognize that's like you've been brought up to do a certain thing and then that certain thing may not actually align with your ethics.

[00:04:43]Uh, would you say align >> like a Sorry. Yeah, you you go.

[00:04:48]Oh, sorry. Um, was there like a moment where you like had a realization?

[00:04:54]Yeah, I I don't have a good recounting of my my use cuz I went vegan nearly 12 years ago.

[00:05:01]Okay.

[00:05:02]>> But I think I was doing a music video for this punk band locally and they had a song and it was about factory farming specifically.

[00:05:15]So then I just like YouTube'd [clears throat] factory farming cuz I didn't know what it was and then I saw a video of the dairy industry and I was like wait, uh, these guys like went some McDonald's and they're they've got a song about factory farming. And then and then I was like wait dairy isn't flesh. Uh, what? And then it just kind of clicked for me, um, that I needed to like just opt out of uh, you know, this participation and I knew a vegan and I moved in with him and he taught me how to be vegan.

[00:05:49]>> [laughter] >> Um, so yeah, it was just it was just someone else's hypocrisy that made me realize I was a hypocrite.

[00:05:57]Okay. And how did you find like the diet itself?

[00:06:02]Um, don't really know how to >> Is it hard to No. No. Like I I right now I'm I'm in a deficit so I'm being more careful about what I consume. I'm eating like high protein and especially high protein because I'm in a deficit to try and uh, gain muscle or like at least maintain it. And that's not hard at all.

[00:06:25]When you are just eating free for all and I can be in like a maintenance or a surplus, very easy to >> [laughter] >> just eat loads.

[00:06:32]>> Mhm.

[00:06:33]Um, no, I just I just veganized everything I liked before, really.

[00:06:39]Oh, awesome.

[00:06:41]Yeah.

[00:06:42]Uh, yeah, I I think it like there was one point where I was vegan cuz it was like a year into it and then I was like drunk. I don't drink anymore but I was just like oh, it's so unfair.

[00:06:54]Would it be so bad if I like ate an animal because there was like no I didn't know about the vegan options you know, around at that time.

[00:07:03]>> And even then I was just like no, like it's not an animal's fault that I'm drunk and hungry right now, you know what I mean? So Yeah. other than that moment of like it being hard while I was, you know, impaired anyway, um, yeah, I wouldn't take it to be difficult. Yeah.

[00:07:24]Cool. And, um, wait, I had a question in mind. Um, Oh, yeah. What was your diet like beforehand and how is it like how have you how how have you changed now? What kind of changes to your life has happened since doing that?

[00:07:43]Um, it really varied. I didn't have like a specific kind of diet. I'd just eat like anything all the time, you know, the classic like UK chicken nuggets or I'd also have like dishes cooked for me, you know, with rice and some flesh and or roast dinners, you know, um, but then, yeah, I've just kind of like veganized all the ones I liked. You can get vegan chicken nuggets. I don't really eat them at the minute though.

[00:08:09]But yeah, right now my food is quite like, um, you know, like bodybuilder meal like potatoes with vegan chicken you know, like plant-based chicken.

[00:08:21]Uh, and broccoli. Like it's that right now but before it could be anything, yeah.

[00:08:27]There's so many That's the thing, there's so many plant-based foods that you don't even realize or it'll be something would be plant-based if you just kind of changed out one ingredient.

[00:08:38]Okay.

[00:08:39]Um, Yeah.

[00:08:42]But then there there can be some things that are harder like with, um, not food like household products.

[00:08:50]Like Yeah. Like you may you may think oh, I want to paint my house and it's like oh, I need to look for the vegan paint because I don't want animals to be involved in this paint like it's disgusting or, you know, sometimes the hair or feathers of animals may be put in things even food actually. Um, there's something called [clears throat] L-cysteine and it's often not not vegan.

[00:09:12]It's made from hair, feathers and fur of animals to make >> Yeah. Um, but yes, things you might not think oh, you know, I didn't think that an animal would be involved here. Um, usually it's harder in the non-food but you can find those alternatives or just not do those things. Like something like paintball. Paintball's not vegan.

[00:09:36]Wow, I didn't know that.

[00:09:38]>> Yeah, like something about the capsule that the paint's in is made from the bones of animals. Like it's like gelatin.

[00:09:47]Um, and I I always wanted to paintball but I didn't do it you know, before and if I don't know of a vegan paintball like I just can't go so I guess I'd do laser tag or something else. Do you know what I mean? It'd be those different Yeah.

[00:10:02]Um But, yeah, I I guess it's like just kind of figure out though because obviously these things just align with my ethics, so it's easier for me, right? It's like, oh, I take it to be wrong, so I'll just not I'll find ways to not do it.

[00:10:15]So, I I guess it's with yourself. Do Would Would veganism align with your ethics like not exploiting other sentient beings sort of thing?

[00:10:24]Mhm.

[00:10:28]>> [snorts] >> I'm pretty torn.

[00:10:32]Can you expand on that?

[00:10:35]Yeah, so I would say and I can understand Um I think it's beautiful that you know, you uh the protection of life.

[00:10:51]But, my I guess argument would be that I feel as if humans and just like many other animals have consumed other animals for a very long period of their existence.

[00:11:12]And I feel as if I get a lot of nutrition from eating those foods.

[00:11:22]Okay, can we unpack that?

[00:11:25]Absolutely. Go for it. Okay, I'm seeing I'm I'm seeing alarm I'm seeing alarm bells with it cuz I'm thinking of like the entailments of the view.

[00:11:36]Uh-huh. So, obviously let's just hash out the end bit first. So, you take it to be the case you could get nutrition from being plant-based, right?

[00:11:47]Yes. I just I I have a uh issue with I can't see it being as of the same quality.

[00:11:57]Of the same quality.

[00:12:00]Yeah.

[00:12:00]>> Okay, then maybe we need to address this before we get on to the other thing.

[00:12:05]>> Okay, so you you Is it just a feeling that you have or is it driven by some data that Oh, no, I've made I've I have pretty conscious I make a pretty conscious conscious effort on my diet.

[00:12:21]Um I I don't I don't drink. I don't smoke.

[00:12:26]I don't eat fast food. I don't I there's a lot of things I don't eat.

[00:12:32]I feel like my diet is very um whole foods based.

[00:12:39]Sorry.

[00:12:40]>> my reasons to why I don't eat why I don't think veg like plant-based foods are as nutritious. Yeah, sorry, that's the thing. I'm asking more about the I'm I'm Sorry, I'm not asking for like the behavior that you engage in. I'm asking you have this view that like plant-based eating wouldn't have as positive health outcomes or something would be maybe missing. Is that Is that what you mean?

[00:13:08]Yes. Okay, so I'm trying to figure out where you've got that view from. Is it guided by a a kind of a vibe or is it like there's some data that you've read and then it concerns you.

[00:13:20]>> Oh, no, that I I feel as if I more I wouldn't say feel. I I think I know about some data. Oh, oh, do you have the data that you could send?

[00:13:32]Oh, like the studies? Yeah.

[00:13:35]Oh, no, no, I would have not come prepared for this. Okay, well, so can you just like what Can you obviously if I've read a paper, I obviously cannot read it verbatim or anything, but it's like is there a certain study you know that you've read that said that vegans um have bad health outcomes or something like this?

[00:13:56]Oh, no, I I my belief is vegans would definitely be healthier than that average person eating animal products because I feel if you make a conscious decision of what you're eating, you're going to be healthier.

[00:14:14]Oh, okay, so that sounds different. So, so basically then you do think that obviously if you plan things well, you you could have a nutritious and healthy diet as long as even if you're plant-based, right?

[00:14:31]Yes. Okay, okay, so I don't I don't disagree with that. I just feel as if to have some animal products in the mix there would make it more nutritious.

[00:14:42]But but currently you haven't got any data to share that would substantiate that. Is that correct?

[00:14:47]>> Oh, okay. Um I don't have studies or data on me, but I know if you look up on Google that a lot of uh plants for example have things like oxalates or like phytic acid which are anti-nutrients.

[00:15:07]Oh, that Yeah, but that doesn't mean that that's then bad for you. That's why I'm looking for health outcome data because obviously we want to look at the overall What's the outcome to these people consuming this way? And if they're just getting positive outcomes, it doesn't matter if a word uh you know, a plant contains something.

[00:15:27]You know, the if it if it's bad in the outcomes they'll show something bad happening, right?

[00:15:38]Yeah.

[00:15:39]Like something may contain something that sounds scary or does something weird in the body, but that actually might be positive to the body.

[00:15:48]So, just just it containing something will not tell you very well what the effect is on the human body.

[00:15:58]Okay.

[00:16:00]Yeah. Um All right.

[00:16:03]So, so when you say you've read data is it the case that you've read more things about uh things that um are contained in plant foods rather than health outcome data?

[00:16:19]Yes, I've read a lot about what is contained within plants, yeah.

[00:16:25]Okay, but you haven't read like the outcomes of being plant-based or something like that.

[00:16:33]No, I've never really looked into it.

[00:16:34]I'd love >> Okay.

[00:16:35]If If you've got some data I mean, you There are some data and I think um VPNs in here, but that's not necessary at the moment if you don't take the view that it's like unhealthy and obviously, you know, if if you think it's having some sort of negative effects, then we can uh talk about that later. But, the reason I wanted to go through it is because you said the claim was um you're conflicted about being vegan because humans have consumed animals for a long time and it's a source of nutrition. So, what I was just trying to figure out first is if you believe you can get that nutrition without doing that thing, right?

[00:17:20]And it seems like you think you can.

[00:17:22]>> Uh okay, I see. Yeah.

[00:17:24]So, it Okay. So, basically then the the alarm bell in the claim is that you're conflicted about stopping doing it.

[00:17:35]Right? Partially because humans have done it for a long time. Is Is that correct?

[00:17:42]Yeah, I feel like our bodies are adapted to do so.

[00:17:46]Okay, well, firstly an adaptation doesn't necessarily even mean that that's good.

[00:17:52]Um but we'll come away from the health for a second, but the thing is for as long as long as we've been farming humans um farming non-human animals we've been killing humans.

[00:18:07]So, you you wouldn't think, oh, we shouldn't keep doing that because we've killed humans for a long time, would you?

[00:18:16]No, but I also don't think that we have I would say that we are adapted to kill humans.

[00:18:26]So, you think adaptations make something justified?

[00:18:31]Well, I just feel like it that's the to for our bodies to run as optimized as they can.

[00:18:38]Oh.

[00:18:39]>> evolved these mechanisms for however many millions of years to do so.

[00:18:45]Okay, this sounds like a separate claim.

[00:18:47]So, do you think it's What What do you take to be optimal, sorry?

[00:18:53]Um What?

[00:18:56]Like optimal health. Yeah, what do you take that to mean? Cuz I don't understand what people mean when they say it.

[00:19:03]Well, I would say the absence of sickness as a start.

[00:19:12]Probably Do you think >> of factors that could influence this.

[00:19:18]Yeah.

[00:19:19]I I just I don't >> people know what a good health what a good person in good health is.

[00:19:26]Yeah, no, a person in good health is different to an optimal diet though.

[00:19:29]Those are separate things, right? Oh, okay.

[00:19:33]Do you know what I mean?

[00:19:36]I I just I'll be real with you. I don't know if an optimal diet is a thing right now. Uh people say it. I don't know if it even exists currently.

[00:19:45]Well, there's definitely a suboptimal diet.

[00:19:50]Um I guess if you mean that synonymously with like generally unhealthy diets or health >> Yeah.

[00:19:58]Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.

[00:19:59]>> Yeah. There's definitely things that people know are unhealthy. Yeah, I think I'd grant that. Um, but yeah, the concept of an optimal So, just just to be clear, okay? So, we've kind of adapted to like really clench our fists, right?

[00:20:16]Uh, yeah. Yeah. So, does that mean um, I'm justified in punching people's faces if it's like optimal to my health?

[00:20:28]Like say I got a really good health benefit.

[00:20:29]>> that is optimal to your health.

[00:20:31]>> No, it's not whether or not it is.

[00:20:32]>> No, I don't Yes, you're right. You're right. That's not justified. Okay, so there's the You're So, you're not seeing the value in that being a justification in one context, but not the other?

[00:20:46]Uh, so I I feel Can I just level with you for a minute? Um, Absolutely.

[00:20:52]when I talk to non-vegans a lot of the time, um, I think it's not the argument that's doing the the work, because when we challenge the arguments, they they they're not applied consistently.

[00:21:07]Typically, Mhm. I think people just don't value non-human animals very much, and then it's all kind of like coming afterwards. It's like, well, what can we say that makes it okay? But when really I I just don't think people have uh, made the connection with the victims.

[00:21:23]And I I don't blame them entirely, because we're we're fully like separated from them. They become a burger. Oh, it's it's fine to um, you know, put a a chicken in a meat farm, but not a dog.

[00:21:36]And it's all very confusing and inconsistent. I don't think there's like a logical framework, typically, that someone holds uh, that's guiding their choices.

[00:21:48]I do think people are definitely very disconnected from their food.

[00:21:53]Yeah.

[00:21:53]>> I think a lot of people probably wouldn't eat a lot of the things they had to if they knew where it was coming from, or if they had to get it themselves.

[00:22:04]Yeah. Cuz the the thing is like even I mean, even if you told me it would be optimal to my health to um, I don't know, eat three human children a year, like I'm just never going to do it, even if it means at the cost of optimal health.

[00:22:24]I'm just not going to do it, because they're a sentient being. It's just like um, >> Absolutely. Yeah, but then when it comes to a pig, it's like, oh, that's fine.

[00:22:32]Yeah, do it. And I I don't get why that's happening, is the thing.

[00:22:38]Okay.

[00:22:41]Okay.

[00:22:42]This is This is even granting that it's the case, cuz I I obviously like and I don't mean this meanly or anything, but you you can't show me that there's like these health outcomes that are so positive in a specific non-vegan compatible um, diet.

[00:23:00]>> think the study the studies have been done.

[00:23:05]Well, that's the thing. Like right now, so if the studies haven't been done and we're accepting that, right now you have to be agnostic, right? You don't have uh, a a um, robust evidence guiding that it is. So, it's it's kind of like I think this might be better for me, so I will pay for animals to be sent to slaughterhouses, right?

[00:23:29]That's what it boils down If we just strip everything away, that's what it boils down to.

[00:23:33]Could you Could you say that again, please? Sorry. Yeah, [snorts] so it's like right now you can't show, okay, well, this is like the optimal, and it it, you know, it it it requires the flesh and secretions of animals, for example, so animals have to be sent to slaughterhouses if I choose this.

[00:23:52]Um, you can't show that that's actually the outcome of you doing that. So, now it's just kind of like it's it's on a it's on a feeling that animals are being sent to slaughterhouses if we just strip it back, which I I I do find horrific. I don't I don't know I don't really know how else to put it.

[00:24:14]No, I do I do agree with you factory farming and um, slaughterhouses. Well, not just factory farming.

[00:24:22]>> Whenever I get the meat that I do eat is from um, I I live in a quiet, rural part, and it's a lot of uh, you know, people I know.

[00:24:38]I know this doesn't probably doesn't make it any better in your mind, but Well, I don't think it makes it better in yours, either.

[00:24:47]Can we explore that?

[00:24:50]Well, I think a cat if for example, a caged chicken versus a pastured chicken, I think the pastured chicken will have would have had a better life. Yeah, but I don't What I mean, sorry, is I don't think you would find it morally acceptable yourself, either.

[00:25:08]I don't think like say, for example, cuz it Yeah, it's what I was talking about earlier, right? You give an individual a lot of well-being, and then you steal their life away from them, and you plan to do it the entire time. If they were a human, if they were maybe another animal like a dog, I think someone would even yourself would find that like repugnant that someone's planned that out for them. They've given them like well-being, and then they've just taken their life away.

[00:25:34]Okay.

[00:25:35]Yeah.

[00:25:37]Yeah.

[00:25:38]>> Do what?

[00:25:39]I You've probably heard this argument before as a vegan. I'm just I'm just I'm truly trying to come into this as as an open mind as possible. I'm just asking the questions that come to my mind. I I hope you don't mind. No, it's fine. It's fine.

[00:25:53]Um, what do you feel about other animals that eat other animals, for example, like a bear, a bear eating salmon?

[00:26:04]Yeah, when you ask this, cuz non-vegans ask this, cuz I hear it a lot where it's kind of like, well, other animals do it.

[00:26:11]Do you think cuz they do it it's acceptable for us to do it, cuz we're also animals? Is that kind of where it's coming from?

[00:26:19]Yeah.

[00:26:20]Well, that's You know bears what they do to cubs who aren't their children, right?

[00:26:28]Yeah, they kill them. Yeah. You wouldn't appeal to their behavior like You're just like, oh, I like this.

[00:26:34]>> Okay, so you're you're you're trying to say cuz we have the choice Yeah, cuz we cuz we have moral agency, we can behave in a specific way where we don't appeal to the behavior of those who are probably more moral patients than moral agents.

[00:26:54]Okay. But do you think that a bear eating a salmon What What are your What are your thoughts on that? Did you find that Is that morally justified? Oh, it like fully upsets me, but like when it comes to like say, like a human who lacks moral agency, um, and What's the name of the I won't name them, but there was this case, basically, where this child murdered another child.

[00:27:23]And, you know, it like fully upset me.

[00:27:27]It was a massive famous thing, but like that child was arguably still a moral patient. So, it's like I can't feel the same about it, if you're asking for my feelings, but I still take a horrific thing to have happened to that child who was killed by that other child.

[00:27:44]So, it's it's still going to upset me.

[00:27:47]Um, what I then how I then deal with that um, is is a difficult I don't know how to answer that question, because it's just like when Oh, the Venables the Venables case, I think it was called, where this child like I I That was actually in school as a kind of like, what do we do? Because the That's This is a child who's killed someone. I I honestly didn't know the answer at that time, and I'm still like unsure of how you uh, deal with that action.

[00:28:14]Um, but yeah. So, yeah, my feelings on it it's it's still horrible, of course.

[00:28:20]Mhm. Okay.

[00:28:22]But yeah, I I do want to get back to the um, the kind of like Do we Do we understand now that like we can't appeal to the behavior of like a like a bear out in in nature, because then we would be saying, okay, well, it's morally acceptable for us to kill human children who aren't our children.

[00:28:47]Oh, no, that's not what I I wasn't trying to compare us to a bear since to justify actions. I was looking for your opinion on the the actions of I guess nature. Okay.

[00:29:01]Yeah, no, I don't think things in nature are necessarily like good things. I don't think it's a metric of what's good. Cancer is natural, sepsis is natural, anthrax is natural. Um, yeah.

[00:29:13]The These things are horrible, and I would actually go against nature to take someone to a hospital and and get treatment. So, yeah, I think this kind of like it's it's just not applied very consistently.

[00:29:29]Um, it You know, if if like people who go, oh, it's nature, though. Animals are killed in nature.

[00:29:36]But it's like they they would go to the hospital if they were unwell and they were dying, even though nature is taking its course in that moment.

[00:29:43]Um, yeah.

[00:29:47]Mhm.

[00:29:49]Okay.

[00:29:50]But yeah, um I just I just want to see how we are at with the obviously I don't expect you to change your mind on the spot. But like do we understand that the conflicted feeling inside that's driven by humans have been doing it for a long time and that's where you get your nutrition.

[00:30:10]Um those things we've kind of gone through. Do do how are you feeling about those at the moment?

[00:30:17]Oh, I think I've lost you.

[00:30:19]Hello?

[00:30:21]Can you hear me?

[00:30:25]Hello?

[00:30:29]Um my thing's going green, so I'm not getting anything.

[00:30:33]I can hear you.

[00:30:42]Hello?

[00:30:46]Um I'll type I suppose that I can hear you.

[00:30:52]Um I can hear you.

[00:31:08]Lovely Bunny, can you just type in the outreach and debate chat that you can hear me?

[00:31:15]Cuz I can I can hear them.

[00:31:20]Yeah, you Lovely Bunny can hear me.

[00:31:22]Oh, I can hear you now.

[00:31:24]>> Oh, okay. Yeah, sorry. I was just asking where you're at obviously cuz we the conflicted feeling was coming from humans doing something for a long time and nutrition. But we've we kind of explored those. Where are you at with them now?

[00:31:42]I I can understand your point of view.

[00:31:44]But I I think a lot of the arguments you made could be made in both ways.

[00:31:49]Ooh, in what sense?

[00:31:52]Well, I think there's a lot of things that humans have been doing for a long time and to say um you know uh >> Oh, I see the confusion. No, no, no.

[00:32:05]>> No, I'm not saying everything that's been done for a long time is bad or anything. I'm just saying something can't be justified on the length of time of which it's been done.

[00:32:14]>> Uh-huh, okay. I got you. So it to be said the other way would just to be to justify then doing something on the basis it's been done for a long time. So anything that was done for a long time would then be justified. That would be the other way to say it, which I I would not want to commit to that view cuz that's atrocious.

[00:32:31]Okay.

[00:32:33]Yeah.

[00:32:34]Um and then as for the nutrition, yeah, I just I guess if you take it to be this like optimal thing, then I would need some like health outcome data or something like that. Um I think the optimal thing would be very difficult to show. But then even I doubt that you to reach an optimal diet if it were the case would um do the same thing that we do to non-human animals to humans. Would would you?

[00:33:03]As in What do Farm them. Like human human farming. We breed them into existence.

[00:33:08]We farm them and we send them to slaughterhouses and turn them into juicy burgers. If it were like really healthy to do it.

[00:33:14]>> No, I don't think we should do that to human beings.

[00:33:18]>> So then I think humans and animals are quite separate.

[00:33:22]Oh, what's the um morally What's the morally Yeah.

[00:33:26]>> ethically What's the morally significant difference between Well, I think you spoke about it before when you said when we were talking about bears, how bears will kill their own cubs. Like a lot a lot of humans would do that.

[00:33:41]So wait, because >> a moral We have a moral compass.

[00:33:46]Oh, yeah, but there are there are humans who don't, right? There are humans who lack moral agency.

[00:33:51]Like we all did at one >> Absolutely. Yeah, you wouldn't think it's justified to like say if for example you had uh infants with human infants with cognitive conditions they that stop them from being moral agents. So they can't really understand right from wrong and then they never reach maturity, so they never get to a point where they can understand right from wrong. You wouldn't you wouldn't think that it's acceptable morally to farm them for burgers, would you?

[00:34:20]No. No.

[00:34:21]So is there another kind of Obviously there there could be many differences like that other things.

[00:34:27]>> Do you Do you think humans are separate from animals? Like what if we go back to the burning house? If you were in a house with a human and a dog, are you going to save the human or the dog?

[00:34:39]Obviously you'd have to apply more context but if you Oh, I can I can hear myself back, sorry.

[00:34:45]Um generally speaking, it's probably the human. I but if you add different context, I might say the dog. But I I think even I'm hearing myself back.

[00:34:57]Do you mind muting when um I'm talking cuz I'm getting some feedback.

[00:35:02]Oh, sorry. That's fine.

[00:35:04]But yeah, I don't think that's a specifically um vegan thing. Like I think um you know, if you have a human and they've done loads of horrible things, maybe someone would pick the dog over the or if maybe they're really old.

[00:35:19]And and then the the dog is really young and they have loads of life to live.

[00:35:23]Like it it would depend, yeah. But generally speaking, probably a human, maybe.

[00:35:30]Um but yeah, I don't I don't know why I don't know why then that gets you to it's justified to Like that's a morally significant difference.

[00:35:43]You just made the claim that it's justified to save the human over another animal.

[00:35:50]Yeah, but you're giving a scenario where I have to save one, not like kill them.

[00:36:00]Yeah. Yeah, and I don't know how that's engaging with >> what I was trying to make was the outcome I was trying to get was do you think humans are separated from other animals?

[00:36:13]Do you mean anatomically?

[00:36:15]Like morally? [clears throat] Yeah, morally.

[00:36:19]Okay.

[00:36:20]Um probably on aggregate, but I don't know why it's then um a case where it's like, okay, well then all the other animals they are below a threshold whereby now it's justified to send them to slaughterhouses. I don't know how that happens.

[00:36:41]Mhm.

[00:36:42]Like you I like for example, let's just put it into a a context that makes more sense. I'm going to save my my friends, my human friends over my human strangers.

[00:36:56]So I value the human friends more than I do a human stranger. That doesn't mean then it's justified for me to send the strangers who are humans to slaughterhouses.

[00:37:07]Just cuz I value my friends more.

[00:37:09]>> No.

[00:37:10]Oh, absolutely. Yeah, so why What is it about the the non-humans that's like, okay, well they're not as valuable as the humans, therefore now it's justified to send them to slaughterhouses.

[00:37:23]Well, I never I didn't mean to make the claim that that was justified.

[00:37:30]I just was trying to understanding the separation.

[00:37:35]Oh, sorry. I'm just trying to I'm I'm trying to work out obviously I'm assuming you have some sort of justification for what you're currently doing and obviously you'll probably continue to do, right?

[00:37:48]As in consume animal products? Yeah, consume animals and their secretions, be it for food, clothing, or other purposes. Yeah.

[00:37:57]Yes. Yeah, so I assume you've got some sort of justification to continue doing so, right?

[00:38:05]My Yes, my biggest justification would be my health.

[00:38:11]But we've we've gone through how you can't demonstrate that your health is improved or different or anything like that by paying for them to be sent to slaughterhouses. So I don't Oh.

[00:38:28]Okay. Well, it's a moral Okay, I I feel like it is and I think that it is. My health is would be uh would be better.

[00:38:41]Can I be brutal for a minute? Can I be brutal?

[00:38:45]Yes. If I had you in a room and I was like, look Sea Hippo, I really think that my health is going to be better if I shoot you in the head right now.

[00:38:56]I just have a feeling about it. I just feel it deep inside that you'd think that's rubbish, wouldn't you?

[00:39:02]>> I don't have a feeling.

[00:39:04]Yeah, but you're not providing the evidence. So I right now all I see is a feeling.

[00:39:08]>> lot There's a lot of things that in plant There are a lot of things in plants that I think are harmful or um uh no, I uh what's the word?

[00:39:25]I feel like animal products are superior to them. But we've we've gone through this, haven't we? I don't think you're appreciating that unless you provide evidence to the empirical claim, it is just a feeling. You've said you've not read the outcome data showing positive health outcomes that just completely destroy veganism or anything like that that you would just wouldn't be able to obtain. Well, I could the I could ask the same question to you as in would do you have positive health outcomes from a vegan diet studies?

[00:40:01]Um yeah, there there we have the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics stating that it's health as long as you plan it, you know, appropriately.

[00:40:09]As you said before about like, you know, um planning and thinking about how you're going to have your diet and shape it, it's suitable for all stages of life. There's positive health outcomes on this. It's That's one of the >> On vegan diets?

[00:40:25]Um yeah, there's like multiple there's like an Oxford one as well. Um if you go on um >> comparing the vegan diet to a standard diet?

[00:40:37]Um I can't recall.

[00:40:40]All right, they're going to be different ones. The um Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is based on many studies.

[00:40:47]grouped together. Yeah.

[00:40:49]>> Yeah.

[00:40:50]Um but yeah, I just again, I don't know are you really going to tell me that you are Oh, um yeah, VPNs put it here. Can you see it here um in the chat just for you to look at Pacific Sea Hippo.

[00:41:05]A VPN's writing You see you see it?

[00:41:08]>> Where? Where? that they opened shop.

[00:41:12]>> Yeah, if you look there there's like a there's there's separate ones that VPNs very um cleverly put together.

[00:41:20]Um but yeah, basically just to be clear >> through this while we're talking. That's fine. Yeah, no, that's fine.

[00:41:26]>> But yes. Are you of the view just if we just grant everything for a second just to see if there's a pig in front of you and you um you say someone says to you and you you fully believe them, they're telling the truth. If you kill this pig right now instead of just having a healthful diet, you will have an optimal diet. Are you are you killing that pig?

[00:41:56]If I if I kill the pig, I will have an optimal diet.

[00:41:59]>> Instead of just a healthy, generally healthy one, yeah.

[00:42:04]Sure. You are killing the pig, but you're not killing the human before, right?

[00:42:10]No, cuz I think humans and are morally separated from other animals. And what's the morally significant difference cuz the one we've been through so far we realized wasn't a difference.

[00:42:25]In what sense?

[00:42:27]Uh you said something about moral >> think the value of a pig's life is equal to the value of a human?

[00:42:32]>> I'm I'm not saying it's equal. I'm saying there's no morally significant difference I can find that would again, remember, I can value that my human friends more than I can value human strangers. It doesn't mean there's a morally significant difference between my friends who are human and the human strangers that would justify it.

[00:42:50]So it's not about all I value this one more. And before it was >> the value and this is going to sound harsh, but at the moment my view is I consider the value of my health to be above [snorts] the the pig.

[00:43:09]We're not talking about that right now.

[00:43:10]We're talking about the morally significant difference between the pig and the human that means you would kill the pig for this hypothetical optimal health, but not the human.

[00:43:22]Oh, okay. So what why would I kill the pig over the human? Yeah, what's what's more the morally significant difference between the pig and the human?

[00:43:33]That the human is a human.

[00:43:37]What does that mean cuz that's circular like fully.

[00:43:45]Well, we just went through that we think that humans have more value than an animal.

[00:43:52]That that's not what the we're talking >> Yeah, but remember, I can value some humans more than others. It doesn't mean it's then justified to kill them. So I'm looking for a morally significant difference within the pig that's not there in the human or something that the pig doesn't have.

[00:44:11]>> reason I would pick and eat an apple off a tree.

[00:44:18]I'm killing that apple.

[00:44:21]But that's not sentient. We've been through this. I don't know why >> is morally is Yeah, they're not sentient. You you know a pig's sentient, don't you?

[00:44:33]Well We we started this with pig with granting that animals like pigs are sentient.

[00:44:42]Yes. Yeah, okay. So and so like us they're sentient. So that's not a morally significant difference and so apples they're not analogous here. So do you have something else?

[00:44:58]I'm struggling to understand what you just said.

[00:45:04]So an apple is apples aren't sentient, are they?

[00:45:09]Yes, they're not. They're not. A pig is and a human is, yes?

[00:45:15]Yes. So it wouldn't be bad to kill the apple because they're not a subject or anything like that. I don't know what it would mean to for it to be bad to kill an apple.

[00:45:24]But it would be bad to kill a sentient being which pigs and humans are.

[00:45:30]>> okay.

[00:45:33]Okay, but someone just asked So if who's who said that? No. Um No, so my my argument I'm trying to make is that that you've made that group, but the if we expand that into the the apple and the pig are both a living things. I What morally separates them?

[00:45:59]>> The fact that one's sentient [clears throat] and not the other. Yeah.

[00:46:01]>> other?

[00:46:02]Yeah, how can you how can you harm >> where's How can you harm an apple?

[00:46:11]Like they're not a subject.

[00:46:12]>> thing. Yeah, but they're not they're not You can definitely harm you can harm a a tree. But not not in a way that's not in the way that harms them like specifically. Like when when you get punched in the face, it hurts you. Like a tree a tree isn't a subject to experience the punch.

[00:46:32]Well, I that that can be quite I feel like that can be quite vague. No, Sea Hippo. When we can't be going back to the start. We've addressed this. You understand that sentient beings are to be valued.

[00:46:47]If I cut if I cut a bacteria in half, you don't you probably don't care about that, but you care if I cut a dog in half, don't you?

[00:47:00]Well, yes, I would care more.

[00:47:01]>> Okay, so let's let's not I don't know why we're doing this. What's the morally significant difference between humans and other animals such as pigs that would justify you shooting the pig for optimal hypothetical health, but not the human?

[00:47:17]Yes.

[00:47:18]To optimize my health.

[00:47:20]But you wouldn't do it in the human context. So there's some sort of morally significant difference.

[00:47:25]>> a human's life for >> Okay, but you would a pig. Yeah, so what's the morally significant difference between the pig and the human?

[00:47:33]Well, I feel like humans have a high level of consciousness.

[00:47:37]Uh so humans don't all have >> one of my own species. Oh, own species.

[00:47:42]So say for example, tomorrow you DNA test, okay? So you do a DNA test, you're not human. You're some sort of alien creature who has been put on this earth, okay? You realize you're ET, okay?

[00:47:55]Um and then you find a human being who doesn't have the highest level of consciousness, you know, they're not like operating at the the level of like a human on aggregate, maybe a bit lower. You know, they have some sort of cognitive condition that means they're not as sentient as someone else.

[00:48:15]Uh would you shoot them for optimal health cuz they're no longer they're not ET, they're human um because they have like maybe the consciousness level of a pig.

[00:48:27]Wait, so am I Wait, did you say I'm an alien or other alien?

[00:48:32]>> you said cuz you said you're you're they're of your own species. So if it turns out tomorrow you you're you find out you're not human um so they're not your own species and um they are of lower uh consciousness you said. So is it acceptable in your view to >> a tough question.

[00:48:51]>> [snorts] >> I don't know what I would do if I figured out I was not human.

[00:48:56]Well, I I would hope it would >> that truthfully. I would hope that it would be that you wouldn't shoot the human just because you're not human anymore.

[00:49:06]Okay.

[00:49:08]Okay. I feel Okay.

[00:49:10]It's a good argument.

[00:49:12]Yeah, so that's the vegan argument because we don't just go around killing not killing humans just because they're human as well, hopefully.

[00:49:22]We don't go around killing humans just because they're of a certain level of intelligence, hopefully. I mean, that's been done throughout history. People with lower intelligence have been murdered for that reason and that's bad.

[00:49:34]So basically, what I'm trying to say, okay, cuz we we keep kind of circling back. So, I feel like maybe we should come to a a finalization.

[00:49:42]Anything you want to take away from like anything you want to say, okay, well, it's acceptable to do this to a non-human animal because they don't have this. As soon as you take that away from a human, typically people will be like, well, I'm still not killing the human.

[00:49:58]So, there's no morally significant difference. So, they end up in a inconsistency.

[00:50:02]So, if you want to be inconsistent, then that's very bizarre to me. I don't know why someone would want to be if they know.

[00:50:08]Cuz then your whole moral framework just kind of collapses.

[00:50:13]Um so, yeah. I I I think maybe we should just table it for now. Maybe you could like look into some of the data.

[00:50:22]But, I think you're going to be tripped up in the sense that like I don't think you would kill a human who's equalized to a pig having a similar experience to a pig.

[00:50:34]Even if you weren't human, I don't think you'd shoot them for a hypothetical optimal health. I don't think you'd do that.

[00:50:42]I think you just need to value and connect with the non-human animals more.

[00:50:48]Like honestly.

[00:50:50]Like go to a sanctuary, see these animals.

[00:50:54]Okay.

[00:50:55]Um can I ask you one last thing before we go?

[00:51:00]What's it pertaining to? Is it going to be like a long question cuz it's been nearly an hour.

[00:51:05]Oh, sorry. Yeah, it's all right. I just looked at the time.

[00:51:08]What's it what's it pertaining to, sorry? Is it topical? It's pertaining to more um the argument you made on if humans if you took something away from a human, you still wouldn't kill them.

[00:51:23]Well, it depends what it is. If you take away their like sentience, their consciousness, then yeah.

[00:51:29]Okay, that's what that's what I was going to say. But, with the sentience and consciousness, would you you would think it's more than okay to kill them?

[00:51:37]Yeah, it's like the whole like um someone in a coma, like when they lose consciousness or you know, um and it's been a long period of time, it doesn't seem like they'll return to consciousness, then people pull the plug and I I don't really have like a moral issue with that. It then becomes like extrinsic like to the others who are affected by that individual not getting a chance to potentially wake up again.

[00:52:01]Um so, yeah, like you take the sentience away, I I don't know why I'd um be concerned as much.

[00:52:12]Okay. So, it all goes back to sentience.

[00:52:16]Yeah, basically. For the intrinsic value, yeah, like the value in and of the being, yeah, the sentience is going to be the component that's really doing the consideration.

[00:52:27]>> Okay.

[00:52:28]Yeah.

[00:52:29]Okay. Cool.

[00:52:31]All right. Thank you for talking and and stick around in the Yeah. This this was a moral Just uh give me an update on like how it's how it's going if you've looked into more stuff cuz if there's like a hiccup, then maybe we could, you know, VPN's very lovely as well and and can help through the empirical stuff especially.

[00:52:50]Cool.

[00:52:51]Thank you. Sorry for chewing up your time. No, you're you're good. Don't worry about it.

[00:52:56]Uh it was good to have a talk a talk through this stuff.

[00:52:59]Yeah.

[00:53:00]All right. See you. Thanks, see you, bye.

[00:53:03]>> [music] [music] [music]