The Sufi Secret Hidden in a Joke About Donkeys

Añadido: 2026-05-26

[00:00:03]Hello everyone. Welcome to another Sunday talk within the ninesighted circle. I am your host Nor Kyle >> and I am her faithful sidekick Mushak Ali.

[00:00:12]>> Yes. And thank you so much for being my partner in crime, Mushtalk.

[00:00:17]And thank you to all of you for joining us. Whether you're here live or watching on the replay, it's good to be in your company and to have this opportunity to spend some time working through our stuff together. And by our stuff, I mean the work, the internal work, the work of being awake, of being a fullyfledged human being, God willing. So, what are we talking about this evening?

[00:00:48]English talk.

[00:00:50]>> Well, tonight we are going to look at a classic Sufi story and then we are going to talk about it and we are going to look underneath the surface and then we're going to look underneath that surface >> and get down to the meat of the matter.

[00:01:14]>> Yes.

[00:01:15]So, would you like to tell the story, Nor?

[00:01:18]>> I would love to tell the story as >> Why don't you tell the story?

[00:01:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, here we go.

[00:01:28]The tale of the honest smuggler.

[00:01:34]Now friends, this here is a story about Mulanasine and a string of donkeys, but it is not strictly speaking a story about donkeys.

[00:01:47]It's a story about a border and the guards at that border and the official government-looking men standing around that border with their hats in their boots in their serious expressions, which is the kind of expression a man gets when he has spent too many years looking for something and has not yet considered the possibility that the thing that he is looking for may be walking looking directly underneath the thing that he is looking in.

[00:02:25]Every morning, bright and early, Naser Dean would come up the road leading a string of donkeys.

[00:02:33]Not suspicious donkeys, you understand?

[00:02:36]Just ordinary donkeys. the kind of donkeys that looked like they had seen human civilization and decided after due consideration not to endorse it.

[00:02:50]And on either side of those donkeys were paniers.

[00:02:55]And in those paniers ears there was straw, sometimes dry thorns. Sometimes straw and dry thorns mixed together in a way that made the whole business look even more innocent because nobody sensible would hide anything valuable in something that scratched you back.

[00:03:16]But the guards, friends, the guards were no fools. At least they had uniforms indicating they were no fools.

[00:03:26]They would stop Naserine right there at the border and say, "Naserine, what are you doing?"

[00:03:35]And Naser would smile and say, "I am smuggling."

[00:03:43]Now, this was a terrible thing to say to a border guard because once a man tells you plainly that he is smuggling, you are obliged by the entire weight of civilization to find out what he is smuggling.

[00:03:57]Otherwise, you have to go home that night and explain to your wife that a man confessed to the crime and you still couldn't arrest him. And that is hard on a marriage.

[00:04:12]So they searched the straw.

[00:04:14]They searched the straw on the first donkey. They searched the straw on the second donkey. They searched the straw on the third donkey. And by the time they got to the fourth donkey, they were already beginning to develop a personal dislike for agriculture.

[00:04:35]They sifted it. They shook it. They poked it with sticks. They spread it out on cloth. They steeped it in water. They dried it again. They burned it. They sniffed the smoke, which was probably not in the official handbook, but it showed initiative.

[00:04:56]And they found nothing. Not a jewel, not a coin, not a bottle, not a scroll, not a forbidden spice, not even suspicious looking onion.

[00:05:10]So they let him pass and that night Naserine would come back without the straw.

[00:05:19]Next morning there he was again.

[00:05:24]Same man, same border, same guards, same straw, same patient line of donkeys standing there with the air of creatures who knew more than they were prepared to say.

[00:05:40]And the guards stopped him again. And they asked him again, and he told them again, "I'm smuggling."

[00:05:49]Well, you can imagine what that did to them.

[00:05:53]Week after week, month after month, year after year, this went on. Nasserine came up the road with his line of donkeys, the purs packed with straw and thorns, and the guards came out with their official suspicion and their unofficial irritation.

[00:06:12]And everybody took up their appointed positions in the great drama of border enforcement.

[00:06:21]The guards searched the straw with devotion.

[00:06:24]They searched it with science. They searched it with anger. They searched it with that particular kind of sadness only known to government employees who know they are being made fools of but cannot locate the paperwork to make it official.

[00:06:47]Meanwhile, Naseredine grew prosperous.

[00:06:53]At first, he had the look of a poor man.

[00:06:58]Then, he had the look of a man who was doing all right.

[00:07:02]Then, he had the look of a man who was doing better than all right. Pretty soon he had nicer clothes, better sandals, a fatter purse, and the general heir of a man who had discovered a private arrangement with the universe.

[00:07:21]And the guards got older.

[00:07:23]Their mustaches got tired.

[00:07:26]Their boots got discouraged.

[00:07:30]Their official suspicion, which had once stood upright like a flagpole, began to sag around its edges.

[00:07:41]But still they searched that straw.

[00:07:44]They searched straw in the summer heat.

[00:07:47]They searched straw in the winter cold.

[00:07:50]They searched straw while the donkeys stood there blinking at them in the solemn and judgmental manner of donkeys everywhere.

[00:08:01]And every time they asked him, "Nased, what are you smuggling?"

[00:08:08]And he said, "I told you I am a smuggler."

[00:08:16]Well, eventually, as happens to smugglers, guards, donkeys, and all government departments, everybody got old.

[00:08:27]Naserene retired. The guards retired.

[00:08:32]The border remained because borders do not retire.

[00:08:36]They just get new paint, new signs, and younger men to stand confused beside them.

[00:08:45]Many years later, one of those old guards was walking through a distant market, far away from that border, far away from the straw, far away from the inspection forms.

[00:08:59]When he saw Naserine sitting there, comfortable as a cat in the sun.

[00:09:07]The old guard came over slowly.

[00:09:10]He was not wearing his uniform anymore, but he still had the careful walk of a man who had spent his life approaching suspicious packages.

[00:09:22]He said, "Naster, Sir Dean, we are both old men now. The laws far behind us. My knees hurt. My eyes aren't what they were. And I have carried this question longer than I carried my rifle.

[00:09:39]Tell me for the peace of my soul. All those years you crossed the border with straw. We searched it, burned it, drowned it, sifted it, cursed it. I never found a thing. You even told us you were smuggling. So tell me now, what was it?

[00:10:06]Nasserdian looked at him.

[00:10:10]Then he smiled.

[00:10:13]Not a big smile.

[00:10:15]Just the kind of smile a man saves up for many years. So when he finally spends it, it is worth something.

[00:10:26]And he said, "Don."

[00:10:35]And there you have it. A classic Naserin story, one that probably everybody here has heard at least once.

[00:10:44]And yet we see again everybody hears this and they go, "Aha, I understand they weren't looking in the right place." And then they realize that this story is telling them that they also are wearing the uniforms of the guards and may not be looking in the right place for the things that they think they're looking up. And everybody laughs and goes, "Oh, what a nice little shock point."

[00:11:20]And they miss the real point of the story.

[00:11:24]There is a meaning beyond the meaning of this story that is essential to understanding the work, to understanding the Sufi path, to understanding what the fourth way was attempting to do. All of these things are hidden in this story and we just didn't notice it.

[00:11:44]This evening, we're going to notice it whether you like it or not. We're totally going to notice it.

[00:11:51]So, what do you think? What is the meaning beyond the meaning of this story?

[00:12:00]Don't everybody speak at once?

[00:12:07]You can start anywhere and we'll dig in.

[00:12:10]We will dig in from there.

[00:12:17]Um, very tentative, but you have to your defenses have to break down enough so you can ask a real question.

[00:12:26]>> Yeah, that's generally the right answer.

[00:12:31]What is the real question?

[00:12:38]What's going on?

[00:12:42]It's a start.

[00:12:44]You know, we all do that. We we look at this. We look inside the the pane ears, right? We we dig through the straw and it's like, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? What's the problem? What's the story? What is hidden in this experience?

[00:13:04]And these are not bad questions, but these questions are incomplete.

[00:13:10]What these questions deal with is content.

[00:13:17]What we say to you is that that is not the Sufi way, Ralph.

[00:13:25]What we're saying to you is that content is the surface and there is something beneath the surface that is truer and more meaningful for anybody who wants to change and that is the process.

[00:13:50]>> Oh Oh, >> we take a break while I make Nure a host.

[00:13:56]>> Oh, >> sorry love.

[00:14:02]>> Oh, good. All is better now. I hadn't even thought of it. But we are all good to go now.

[00:14:09]>> So, while the process process observes I am angry or the the contents observes I am angry or I am anxious. The process asks how am I doing this anger?

[00:14:24]>> How am I doing this an this anxiety?

[00:14:28]What am I identifying with? And how am I identifying with it?

[00:14:33]>> Yeah.

[00:14:34]>> What is the sequence running inside of me right now that is helping to create this content?

[00:14:44]In this story, the straw is the content and the donkeys are the process and the guards inspect the content, the straw, the thorns, possible hidden objects, but the process is the actual movement, the donkeys being transported across the border day after day.

[00:15:08]And this is the crucial distinction.

[00:15:11]Most people try to change their lives by changing their content. They want better thoughts, better emotions, nicer dreams, better beliefs, better explanations, better spiritual concepts.

[00:15:25]Have I got a spiritual concept for you.

[00:15:28]Step right in here, boy. For only $9.95, you can have this here very concept. You could show it to your friends and they will be impressed, but it ain't going to change it.

[00:15:40]I mean these things can help a bit but it ain't that is not like I said that is not the Sufi way.

[00:15:51]The underlying process remains untouched.

[00:15:55]So a person may replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts but the same process of identification continues.

[00:16:04]A person may replace worldly ambition with spiritual ambition, but the same donkey is still walking across the border.

[00:16:13]A person may stop saying, "I want people to admire me." And start saying, "I want to annihilate my ego." While quietly admiring himself for wanting such an advanced thing, >> the trap.

[00:16:26]>> Yes, >> trap.

[00:16:28]>> And that is not transformation.

[00:16:30]This is the donkey wearing a shawl in a turban.

[00:16:38]>> Now at this point I am going to mention that as we have spoken of numerous times throughout the years some Sufis use the enagram to understand process because that is its original purpose.

[00:17:01]The anagram is a pre- electronic computing device designed to teach you and show you how process works.

[00:17:13]And I'm not going to go into that now other than pointing out that if you're really interested in learning how process works, go back and listen to our playlist on the anagram.

[00:17:24]>> Mhm.

[00:17:24]>> And it will teach it to you or buy our book on the anagram when we publish it.

[00:17:31]not for a few weeks yet.

[00:17:36]But in the meantime, we look at the basic psychological and spiritually psychological angle. Uh we look at the the language of processing content.

[00:17:53]Somebody says, "I'm anxious about tomorrow's meeting."

[00:17:57]This is a content level statement.

[00:18:04]And content level listening would be who will be there, what might happen, what what might you say? Process level though uh asks how is this anxiety being generated?

[00:18:23]Are you making large internal pictures?

[00:18:27]Are you hearing critical voices telling you that you're about to fail for the big meeting?

[00:18:34]Um, are you imagining a future as already failed?

[00:18:41]Are you experiencing stress and tightness in your body?

[00:18:48]Are you moving from one imagined disaster to another?

[00:18:53]large.

[00:18:54]>> Yeah, we've all done that at least once.

[00:18:58]>> Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is it could be multiple of these, right?

[00:19:04]>> Yeah. All of them at once.

[00:19:05]>> Stress compounded. I think that's, you know, speaking from experience, I think that's that's pretty common is to have multiple ways that we are obsessing over the content and getting wrapped up in the the story of the thing and and our body reacts to that and the inner narrative responds to that.

[00:19:33]Doom.

[00:19:34]Doom is coming.

[00:19:37]>> Yes, Doom is already here. It just hasn't seen me yet. But it's looking for me.

[00:19:42]>> It's looking for me. I know it is.

[00:19:44]>> And everyone knows it, too.

[00:19:46]>> Yeah. They're all staring at me, waiting for me to fail.

[00:19:50]>> Yep.

[00:19:51]>> Yep.

[00:19:53]So, is this making sense so far, or are we just blathering at you?

[00:20:01]Yeah, it's making a whole lot of sense.

[00:20:03]It's very interesting because I had come across the basic version of this in one of Idrris Sha's books on Naz although I must admit that uh the telling of this story was uh wonderfully elaborate.

[00:20:18]Um, but the spin that you're putting on it, Mushtack, is I find particularly interesting.

[00:20:33]Uh, it's a perspective that I don't recall hearing before.

[00:20:41]Yeah, you haven't probably because this is one of the things that they keep secret.

[00:20:50]This story is a legism and it is designed to teach the people who are ready to hear this this profound fundamental truth.

[00:21:04]This truth has always been embedded in this story. I know the Shaw story. He doesn't tell it very well, but it's well enough that you could find it there, but the story needs to be told in such a way that you can see it if you're smart enough or clever enough or awake enough.

[00:21:26]So, kudos to you.

[00:21:33]H. So if you don't if you want a sense of what a in principle what a legism is, we've done some videos about that as well.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah, we've done videos on everything by now.

[00:21:45]>> Yeah. And and it's it's good to highlight that the you know if people are like what >> the end look at the end there look at the end of this video and you will see in the the end credits uh links to various videos like this.

[00:22:04]There will be a link to our enagram playlist. I'll put a link up to one or two videos about legisms and god knows what else. Yeah, >> there may even be a video about donkeys.

[00:22:18]We like donkeys.

[00:22:22]>> So, as for this story in particular, um, yeah, there's there's a long history to this story, and yet it is definitely one of those things where there are truths hiding in plain sight, right? Just like in the story itself.

[00:22:45]So, RM says, "I was thinking about shock points in smuggling donkeys."

[00:22:54]Do you want to say more about that?

[00:23:04]While you take a moment to think about that, >> anybody else have any good thoughts?

[00:23:12]>> Yeah.

[00:23:15]Yeah. One thing that that came up was this the um the other Well, it's not really a story, but like a a line kind of uh a donkey with books on its back is still a donkey.

[00:23:30]>> Yeah.

[00:23:32]>> Right. It's like it's the kind of the the same thing. One of the one question though that I have is that I hear you um asking or or moving from the context to the process like how the process is is taking place for some reason the way that that lands instead of I'm asking myself the a why question rather than a How question is is there a difference there?

[00:24:10]>> There's a big difference.

[00:24:12]>> Mhm.

[00:24:12]>> Yeah. Fundamentally, we don't care why we care how.

[00:24:19]>> Mhm.

[00:24:20]>> You know, why do I get sick when I smell the scent of apples?

[00:24:27]Why is this?

[00:24:30]And the answer is, I don't care why you get sick. I care how you make yourself sick when you smell those apples.

[00:24:39]And how you make yourself sick will be specific and it will be sensory based. And once we know it, we can change it.

[00:24:50]>> And this is the secret of this this story here.

[00:24:54]>> Once we understand the process by which you do something, that something can be altered and changed.

[00:25:02]Well, I think it's still it's still a step removed from the observer from the donkey itself like um I feel like like it's still it's it's in the how like it's not down to the identity yet or is it is is questioning the how or asking about the process kind reveals the depth of that one can look in the mirror and see the donkey pretty much or see the the eye quote unquote.

[00:25:44]>> Ah, you're asking a different question.

[00:25:48]>> Yeah, we haven't even begun to talk about the eye. The donkey is not the eye.

[00:25:54]The donkey is a deeper level of naps.

[00:26:03]Knix on content.

[00:26:08]But the process by which KNS fixates on content is the donkey and the eye pays attention to what the KNS fixates on when the eye is identified with the knots.

[00:26:28]Does that make sense?

[00:26:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's a clip right there.

[00:26:35]Okay.

[00:26:40]something I was picking up and I'm not sure if I'm mistaken, but the donkey is something that is sometimes we are deliberately blind to because we've chosen not to see it.

[00:27:01]that someone that I have trusted has told me something and so I've chosen that the donkey is almost invisible cuz I I'm looking for other things and then as time has gone on and I've become more aware I realize it was the donkey >> and I looking at the donkey so the whatever it is as you say the why is a detail that's a distraction I don't need to see that it's It's actually that process of there's something so obvious in front of me and yet I can't see it.

[00:27:40]>> Yeah. It's the classic ploined letter.

[00:27:45]>> Do you know that Sherlock Holmes, one of his famous stories? They're looking for this letter all over the place and it was right in plain sight the whole time.

[00:27:53]>> Yeah. Very.

[00:27:54]>> It's not that you choose not to see.

[00:27:57]It's that you're conditioned not to see.

[00:28:00]M >> yes that too that >> yeah that's that's the more important one.

[00:28:05]>> Yeah. So that the person that I've trusted to do and say certain things is making not making me believe but I've accepted what they said was true and it wasn't and I'm now I only can see it after a very long period of time because the same the same suffering was being inflicted on me and I was going to say it'll be okay. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. It's not okay.

[00:28:30]>> No. Like, >> no. And I'm thinking, what? But they're saying, you know, there's no donkey. And >> yeah, you're you're the person that's supposed to be above all that and blah blah blah. And go, okay, I'm above all that. No, I'm not. I'm just blind. I'm just deliberately put a blinker on it.

[00:28:46]Actually, it's a blinker and I can't quite see out the side. And I'm thinking, >> it's like the doggies. Yeah.

[00:28:52]>> So, you know, it was right there in front of me. And it's only recently that I've been able to say, "Hey, that's not okay."

[00:29:02]It's just like, "Oh, why didn't I see that before?" And maybe that's part of my lesson is that in the process, uh, be very careful of falling into patterns of repetition where other people have accepted that's normal and that's okay and blah blah blah. and you you just habitualize your life because you're so busy and then you realize, oh, there was there was the the little hiccup. I should have just detourred that way, not gone on and on and on and now I'm in a mess.

[00:29:35]You think, ah, pro the process. This is a really powerful point. It's the process.

[00:29:42]>> Yes.

[00:29:42]>> Versus the why. I think how's this happening? What am I doing to make that happen? And what am I doing now to make a different decision? So, how do we go there?

[00:29:53]>> Yeah, funny you should ask that. But before we get there, Nancy has said something very intelligent and we must address this.

[00:30:02]>> Yes. Nancy says, "Should the guards have noticed that it was different donkeys every time, or is that being too literal?"

[00:30:10]>> It's not being too literal. It's actually a really good question. And the answer is if the guards had been paying attention, they would have eventually noticed. But they were not paying attention to the donkeys. They were paying attention to the straw.

[00:30:30]>> And one donkey looks very much like another.

[00:30:34]>> Sometimes.

[00:30:35]>> Sometimes they're actually all totally different.

[00:30:39]>> Yeah. The other thing that crosses my mind is there what in is in the um uh whatchamacallit the the pursuits is it's dead stuff.

[00:30:52]>> Yep.

[00:30:53]>> And I was wondering could this be religious texts >> and arguing about religious texts texts?

[00:31:01]>> Say you broke up just a little bit there. Could you say that again?

[00:31:05]>> Yeah. Um, could the stuff in the baskets, the straw and the thorns, could that be religious texts and arguing about religious text texts?

[00:31:14]>> It could very well be.

[00:31:19]>> You know, we we have definitely seen things like that. So, yeah, that's a good observation. The religious texts are usually content when uh people use them for arguments.

[00:31:36]And we have two people. Heidi and M are both ready to lay it on us here.

[00:31:42]>> Yeah. Go ahead, Heidi.

[00:31:45]>> Well, I'm just thinking there's probably something to pick apart in the fact that Nazine is is a smuggler. I mean, he's engaged in smuggling. So he's engaged in breaking the rules and trespassing and breaking boundaries and and all that kind of thing.

[00:32:10]>> Yeah, Sufis are notorious for breaking the rules.

[00:32:23]It's like uh God that old Marlon Brando movie when he was a motorcycle guy and the the guy comes up to him in the bar and says, "What are you protesting?" And he looks at him and says, "What do you got?"

[00:32:41]>> Yeah, it is kind of like that.

[00:32:43]>> Yeah.

[00:32:46]M, what do you think?

[00:32:49]I think that there's also an aspect of um the idea of assumption. They were always assuming that what they think is smuggle worth smuggled. What's the word? What they assumed is worth smuggling. So that's why they kept looking at the content.

[00:33:13]Um what's in the basket? What's in the hay? Is it the hay? like so they we're looking at things in which they assumed is valued to be smuggled. So assumption is what I'm getting at like >> assuming makes an you know ass out of you and me as they say. Um >> and the donkeys subject to that.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah. And we fall into assumption of things that we think we know >> that we do know that we don't know that we this that we that or either about ourselves or about others were always in in assumption. And it wasn't until right at the end where he let down his uniform. He's, you know, out of all of that and he's open to knowing. So he asks and a communication happens and tells him what it was. It was right in front of his eyes.

[00:34:13]Um and there's also another aspect of how donkey symbolizes the dunya the world and >> um and that's also something to think about how we treat the earth. We don't really see the earth. We see everything on it, but we don't see to the needs of the earth or what that's serving. And I really love this idea of process and content. So, thank you about that.

[00:34:46]>> Yeah.

[00:34:48]And that gets us to the Sufi perspective.

[00:34:56]From the Sufi perspective, this becomes even more subtle.

[00:35:01]The ordinary mind is fascinated by content. Thoughts, emotions, opinions, desires, memories, fears, grievances, spiritual experiences, visions, doctrines, all the little stories by which the the false self keeps itself employed.

[00:35:19]>> Yeah. And keeps us busy.

[00:35:22]>> But is interested in process. This is inherent to the core practice of Sufism.

[00:35:33]Not merely what am I thinking but from where is this thought arising? What part of me is identified with it? What movement of the navs of my ego is carrying it?

[00:35:48]Is there remembrance here or just reaction?

[00:35:51]All of these things enough loves content. Your mechanical self needs content to function.

[00:36:03]It can make content out of anything.

[00:36:06]Religion, psychology, morality, suffering, achievement, failure, humility, anything.

[00:36:15]>> You know, the content perpetuates the content, right? You're talking about the content that perpetuates the content.

[00:36:23]>> Yeah. The Sufi asks you to observe the ton the donkey. Observe the movement underneath the content.

[00:36:33]For example, content says I seek God. The process may say I seek importance.

[00:36:42]Content says I am serving. The process says, "Yeah, maybe I need to be served, be seen serving."

[00:36:50]>> On and on like that.

[00:36:54]And that gets us to the last important thing. And that's the border.

[00:37:04]In this story, the border is important.

[00:37:06]The border is a threshold.

[00:37:09]It divides one territory from another.

[00:37:14]In the work, the border is the threshold between sleep and awakening, between the me mechanical reaction and the conscious presence, between being lived by habit and seeing the habit as it happens.

[00:37:30]Every day something crosses the border.

[00:37:33]A mood crosses, fear crosses, a self-image crosses, a resentment crosses, a familiar me crosses from yesterday to today.

[00:37:44]>> Yeah, this is the, you know, this is a little bit >> deeper than the content. And yet, >> yeah. And yet we inspect the straw.

[00:38:00]>> That's what we do. We look at the straw.

[00:38:04]And we don't look at the donkey.

[00:38:09]We ask maybe why am I thinking this? We never ask how am I thinking this?

[00:38:22]And you got to ask yourself, what process is transporting the same old self across the border again and again?

[00:38:32]Well, it's really about deconstruction, right? Yeah. Or like reverse engineering in a sense like literally the question that was coming to my mouth was how do I disentangle myself from this?

[00:38:50]>> Yeah. And that's the point. We are not saying ignore content.

[00:38:57]Content matters. Thoughts matter.

[00:38:59]Emotions matter. Circumstances matter.

[00:39:01]>> Yeah. Like when you said like the apple example you gave, I I did have the thought of like what if a person is allergic to it and they don't know. But again, >> the content is when I smell apples, I feel nauseated or whatever it is, right?

[00:39:18]>> Yeah.

[00:39:19]>> And then the process is okay. Well, how is that coming to >> Yeah. Back in the day when I was being a therapist and somebody would bring something like that to me, I would say, "Okay, imagine you're smelling an apple. Tell me what happens inside you."

[00:39:37]>> Oh, I feel a tightening in my stomach. I feel uh I catch my breath. I I literally lean back away from the smell a little bit. That's the process by which your body is saying, "Feel sick."

[00:39:52]>> When you know that, you can change it.

[00:39:56]Yeah. Well, I mean, again, if if you are actually allergic to the thing, well, you're discovering, oh, there's like a biological mechanism for that, and I can navigate that.

[00:40:08]>> Yeah.

[00:40:09]And you don't have to feel sick about smelling apples. You just have to remember, don't eat the apple if you're allergic to it.

[00:40:16]>> Yes.

[00:40:18]If you're not allergic to it, you can decide that you want to eat apples or not. And if you want to eat apples, it's really easy to break that conditioned pattern.

[00:40:30]>> Yes, that makes it clearer.

[00:40:33]M >> mushtuck is that like the difference between knowing there's trauma and giving psycho education of how the brain works with >> Yeah. It's it's exactly that.

[00:40:49]>> So the psycho education would be the process.

[00:40:53]>> Yeah. So, if I'm dealing with somebody who um has a trauma experience, I might say to them, "Tell me what happens when you experience this trauma." And they say, "Oh, this guy who hurt me is right in my face right here and I see him and he's this close." The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to change the process. I'm going to say, "Okay, breathe and take that person in your mind's eye and push them way back. make them 20 feet away. How does that change things for you? That alone will change their experience >> and that's that's changing the process by which they do the thing that they were experiencing. There's a going to be more to it than that to make it a good permanent lasting change, but I don't have time to go through the entire thing right now.

[00:41:44]>> I mean, that's the immediate version. I also do think um when you're talking about psycho education, there's a reason why, you know, like in my peer support training, that's a big part of it.

[00:41:55]You're working with people to help them understand that what's happening within them is part of a process that can be understood, something that can be comprehended and and held in compassion and >> and reversed >> and transformed. Yes, >> exactly. So, >> I do think that there are different levels at which we can intervene to have that change come about.

[00:42:30]>> And we aren't talking about us doing that right now. This is to give you the listener.

[00:42:36]>> Yes.

[00:42:37]>> And you, our friends and students, an understanding of how this works.

[00:42:42]>> Yes.

[00:42:46]Ian has a thought.

[00:42:48]>> Yeah, it sort of strikes me that sorry, let let me spin spin back a little bit. I mean, basically, I'm not a person who really knows much about all these therapy things and trowners and how you deal with them, but it's sort of striking me that uh perhaps a different perspective on it that resonates more with me is that we're trying to find out something like the operating system of the robots.

[00:43:23]>> That's exactly right.

[00:43:24]>> Yeah, I think a great metaphor. exactly the case in what we're talking about here. The the content is specific um programming bits but the operating system is the process by which they are manipulated and you can give the process different instructions.

[00:43:49]>> Mhm.

[00:43:50]>> And that's only step one.

[00:43:55]Yeah. I think this is this is particularly interesting in the context of the way that the Gentic AI is starting to take off because there's a kind of orchestration layer involved that is really operating much more at a level that's analogous to what may be going on in people um than sort of a basic simple operating system like Windows or Linux.

[00:44:30]>> Yeah, >> thanks Ian. I think it's it is really useful for all of us to have multiple contexts in which we can see how this stuff plays out in the everyday in different systems.

[00:44:52]>> Here's another one. The instrument is the content and playing the instrument is the process or learning how to play it and getting >> good one.

[00:45:13]>> And RM asks an interesting question.

[00:45:16]>> Let me see. She's asking how can that be implemented in the flaring up of chronic diseases or chronic processes.

[00:45:28]>> Well, there are two different levels going on there. One is the flare up itself and this is not at that level.

[00:45:40]You know, that's at the organic level, the biological level. I have arthritis.

[00:45:48]My inflammation gets worse. Everything hurts more.

[00:45:54]This is not for that. This is for how do I deal with that pain?

[00:46:01]How do I learn to to live in the same body with that pain comfortably >> more or less?

[00:46:10]>> That's the level by by which this uh can be used.

[00:46:15]which is critical.

[00:46:17]>> Yeah, >> it's a huge part of pain management actually is is working through that part of it that's like how do I how do I navigate this not only from like a meds point of view if that's what's needed but also from the the inward point of view. How do I meet it and and not get lost in the stories about my pain, but instead wonder about what are the processes by which I I'm going to say make pain worse, but you're not actually making the pain worse. I I think of it more as the process >> by which I make myself even more miserable.

[00:47:15]>> Yeah. Because a better way to put it.

[00:47:17]Yeah.

[00:47:19]>> You know, pain is inevitable.

[00:47:21]Your response to that pain is not.

[00:47:24]>> I mean, it's the same thing with suffering in general.

[00:47:26]>> Yeah.

[00:47:32]And it's the difference and and I've seen this more than once. Um, you know, we've all seen people who who are in chronic pain and they are miserable all the time.

[00:47:48]And then there are the the occasional people who are in chronic pain and yet they are still joyous at a certain level.

[00:47:59]And I find that interesting. I want to know how they do that process.

[00:48:08]Ah, it's Chris.

[00:48:12]>> He's popping in.

[00:48:14]>> Yeah. Which is always a nice thing.

[00:48:20]So, RM, does that make sense?

[00:48:28]Yes. Great.

[00:48:30]>> Yeah. So, your job is first to deal with the organic problem >> and at the same time you might be able to drop a word here and there that will help people reframe their experience of that problem to be uh more graceful with it.

[00:48:51]And that is the Sufi way.

[00:48:57]So, Nasaredin tells us the truth from the beginning. I am smuggling, he says.

[00:49:05]But the guards cannot hear the truth because they are listening from the wrong level. They think the truth must be hidden inside the straw.

[00:49:15]The Sufi hears differently.

[00:49:18]The Sufi hears, "Look at the process.

[00:49:22]Look at what is moving. Look at what carries experience across the border of awareness before you even begin to inspect it. Content is the cargo.

[00:49:33]Process is the caravan. You can write that one down.

[00:49:42]And the path the the the work the tar asks who is leading the caravan.

[00:49:52]That is the final little question that um Osama was pointing at. Who is leading the caravan?

[00:50:01]So the next time we find ourselves searching through the the straw of our thoughts, our emotions, our explanations, and our spiritual dramas, we might pause and ask, "What are the donkeys?"

[00:50:17]Pet them donkeys.

[00:50:19]They're nice.

[00:50:22]Because sometimes the things that we're looking for are not hidden deep inside the problem.

[00:50:30]Sometimes it's standing right there blinking at us, waiting for us to become just slightly less official and RM makes a very good observation.

[00:50:59]which is the prognosis is good in people who take joyous process.

[00:51:09]Do you understand what that means folks?

[00:51:16]Your attitude and response to things will actually affect you organically.

[00:51:26]You are way more likely to survive an illness with a good outlook than with a foul outlook.

[00:51:34]>> Yeah, >> it's just a thing.

[00:51:38]>> I mean, this is this is something we touched on earlier is like we can become toxically identified with that too, right? But the idea is that we become conscious enough to be strategic and to be intentional.

[00:52:00]And if we know, if we come to understand that cultivating a joyous process is going to help with healing and improve the prognosis, why not choose that?

[00:52:21]>> Yeah. So Ian has a thought and then Michael has a a good thought.

[00:52:27]>> Yeah. I um I've got a friend in California who has all sorts of issues going on. Uh she's got a whole load of different health issues. I've learned more about weird conditions since I've known her than I've even knew there were. Um, and she's also has an amazing amount of bad luck.

[00:52:58]It seems she she manages to make progress and then things happen and it looks like she's going to have to move out from where she lives. Uh, her car's got problems.

[00:53:18]she has basically no money to fix these things. And I was on a I had a short Zoom call with her yesterday.

[00:53:26]Um, and she was and yet she manages to survive and remain fearful.

[00:53:37]>> And I just don't know. I have no idea how she does it. She's she's she's told me she has very high pain tolerance. So I think that's one of one of the ways.

[00:53:47]But I know that if I went through a tenth of the stuff that she's going through, I'd be curled up in a ball in a fe fetal position sobbing my eyes out.

[00:53:58]And it's just a wonder to me how she manages to keep going.

[00:54:07]>> Human beings are incredibly resilient in certain ways.

[00:54:11]I mean, I I believe you. And I wonder if you were in that scenario, you you know, in that scenario yourself, you might surprise yourself at what you're able to overcome >> possibly. Uh I wouldn't count on it.

[00:54:33]>> It's not inviting. I I know that I I know that I have been extremely fortunate in my life in all sorts of ways and and I appreciate that.

[00:54:46]And and knowing her is has opened my eyes to just a whole different world of of challenge >> that I never really knew anything about before.

[00:55:00]and I help her out a little bit where I can, but her needs are far more than anything I could I can deal with.

[00:55:12]But I I I I just wanted wanted to bring that up as an example of someone who does manage to somehow keep going and remain relatively cheerful through just these horrendous situations.

[00:55:33]>> Thank you for that.

[00:55:38]All right, Shri, you have a thought and then I'll >> Yeah, that just reminded me how we can be a support to someone who's going through a a very difficult process. And it just reminded my mom, she's having a difficult time. She's lost her husband and on Saturday she turned 85. And I thought I'll ring her up and find out how is how's she going cuz she's feeling really down, blah blah blah. and she replied back in a message. She goes, "I'm busy this morning. I'm cooking. I'm cooking for the old bitties at church."

[00:56:15]Yeah. I go, "Mom," I said, "That's a wonderful attitude." I said, "You're the old bitty. You're 85. She's cooking."

[00:56:23]I'm thinking that that for me was gold.

[00:56:27]And I thought there she hopped in a process to get herself out of the pain and the misery of blah blah blah. and and she found a way out. And I said, "You got to do that, Mom. You got to do that." And she said, "You're right." She said that I just thought I've had enough of this sort of wallowing in selfies.

[00:56:45]She's kept cooking for the old bitties at church.

[00:56:51]>> Yes. and and thank you for for putting it in terms of process because I think that's a really good illustration of you know witnessing a pivot point and then grabbing on to it and running with it from one process into another. Thank you for that.

[00:57:10]All right, so Michael is asking and in answers his own question essentially.

[00:57:15]Michael says, "What about assigning different meanings to pain versus suffering?

[00:57:22]Yeah, like you know assigning different meanings between them. Um, and then he says, "Pain is part of life." Yes, but suffering is not.

[00:57:32]Is there anything you'd like to say more about that, Michael?

[00:57:40]Do you need me to unmute you?

[00:57:42]Yeah, I'll help you out. No worries.

[00:57:46]There you go.

[00:57:50]Yeah, it's just something I've come across reading uh some pop psychology stuff. Maybe that pain is exactly what I said. Pain is >> part of life. It says, you know, something is wrong. You can direct attention maybe to this area. And suffering is more of a mental thing.

[00:58:12]you can get on to, you know, oh god, the suffering and you suffer your suffering and it kind of goes on and on in a mental kind of spiral. That's what I was trying to get at there that pain is part of life, but suffer is more of a imaginary thing.

[00:58:34]>> I think there's something to that and >> there's a lot to that. Yeah, >> that is exactly >> what we were trying to describe earlier, that distinction. So much appreciated.

[00:58:45]>> Right.

[00:58:48]>> Yeah. And if I can blow Nor's cover a little bit, she's a perfect example of this because she's pretty much almost always in pain, but rarely suffers.

[00:59:00]>> Yeah. I mean, there it's rare that I'm like, I'm I'm not doing anything. I'm so mad about being uncomfortable that I'm just useless. Like, I'm not saying those days never happen, >> but they're pretty dang rare.

[00:59:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot.

[00:59:17]>> And then I rub her shoulders and she's all better.

[00:59:20]>> Yeah. And sometimes it's more like a passing mood really. I mean that that really is a way of framing it is I can reorient myself away from focusing on the pain so that I'm not suffering quite as much. Which is not to say I don't treat it. You know, you got to attend.

[00:59:46]But that's different from attending is different from dwelling.

[00:59:53]Let's put it that way.

[00:59:59]And I think it's important not to confuse those because if we think that even attending, you know, showing responsiveness to the pain is a sign that we're kind of falling into a negative pattern. Wow. We're just going to compound the issue. You got to you got to be responsive to the the how of the process.

[01:00:36]>> Yeah. And Chris is raising his hand, it looks like.

[01:00:40]>> Go for it.

[01:00:42]>> I want to evoke good old uh Alfred North Whitehead.

[01:00:47]>> Ah, yes.

[01:00:48]>> Yeah.

[01:00:50]>> Yes. But but but that's just more of a point towards other you know references if people are interested. But really I wanted to talk about the uh the ray of creation because I just couldn't help but like think about it as you're like this little bit that I caught about speaking to the level when you're speaking to the level of say or or acting from the level of 96 let's say um you're not going to be as strategic as uh nor mentioned earlier. there's like more predictable paths, more mechanical wrote habits I'm going to express.

[01:01:26]>> Mhm.

[01:01:27]>> You versus being on a different different level of constraints on my being.

[01:01:34]>> Yeah.

[01:01:36]>> Nice. Nice tiein. Thanks for that, Chris.

[01:01:42]>> Any other thoughts? Who have we not heard from? Have I missed anything in the chat? Yes, actually. Uh, okay.

[01:01:52]Um, yeah, Nancy had a question. Didn't mean to overlook that. She asked, "Is it important that the guards are representative of a larger social organization?"

[01:02:05]>> Absolutely.

[01:02:08]And kudos to you for catching that. Mhm.

[01:02:16]What more could we say about that?

[01:02:21]>> Part of our constraints, part of the content that we carry around is cultural.

[01:02:26]>> Right? That's a word that came to my mind, too.

[01:02:31]institutionalized stuff that becomes internal.

[01:02:45]Yep. Good.

[01:02:48]>> And so Sufas are smuggling a awakeness into the world.

[01:02:52]>> That's the idea. That's >> that's the goal. That's the hope.

[01:03:01]RM says, "Just listening first and then when I examine my patients, I ask them what are their hobbies." When my patient tells me that they have hobbies, I know that they will do well versus when my patients tell me that they don't have hobbies. I'm sorry. No, that's not off track at all. I mean that that speaks to this idea of someone who feels a sense of drive to take joy in small things or complete tasks or just engage in something that interests them. That means the door is open. The door is more open than it would be otherwise.

[01:03:46]And it is challenging when you have someone who says I don't do anything. I just I just sit at home and I don't do anything. I don't talk to people. I don't do anything because then the inertia is going to be so strong that it's going to be even more challenging for them to make changes that they would experience as desirable if they only knew.

[01:04:19]Yes, Chris. Sorry about that.

[01:04:26]I see that. Are you still Oh, that was from before.

[01:04:31]Yeah, it's okay.

[01:04:34]Any other thoughts? I What are you thinking about? Oka.

[01:04:49]Oh, you got to unmute yourself.

[01:04:54]>> There you go.

[01:04:55]>> Sorry.

[01:04:55]>> No worries. No worries.

[01:04:58]Um first thing you know I have heard this story before and the way the twist of this my favorite word wah came on this like that's what I've been saying you know wah um I think everybody made really very interesting so I don't have anything new to add other than one question that um must start brought uh saying how are people happy in pain you know like h how how do they handle that like what's the process um from all these Sufi classes from one ons with you guys with uh practicing it all having my own struggles of being 58 and you know all the women problems films. Um I can say uh I think we started looking at that how instead of the content and with that how um like observing that how gives me that high like oh my god wow how I am doing this to my own self and then remembering it um and not identifying to this whole thing other than Having gratitude for opening up my mind somehow with all this is what keeps me happy with this pain.

[01:06:37]Uh and I can see the difference when I don't do it versus when I do it. Uh so I just wanted to say thank you for showing me the Sufi way.

[01:06:54]>> Well, there you go. Thank you for sharing that, Ala.

[01:06:58]I'm glad.

[01:07:06]Any other thoughts, questions, concerns, >> higher truths?

[01:07:19]>> Ian Scott. Well, I I seem to remember that at the beginning Mushtak said that you were going to show us a deeper meaning, which you've certainly done. But then I think you said that there was going to be another meaning underneath that deeper meaning.

[01:07:35]Am I remembering that correctly?

[01:07:38]>> Yeah.

[01:07:39]And you got that?

[01:07:43]>> Yeah.

[01:07:46]What was there's the the deeper meaning to the story is oh it's donkeys and the deeper meaning than that is oh it's process.

[01:07:58]>> Oh okay.

[01:07:59]>> Yeah.

[01:08:01]No we didn't we didn't rip you off. I promise.

[01:08:08]No, I just thought that there was one more level and no problem.

[01:08:15]>> But I mean there could be.

[01:08:18]>> No, I mean this has been very very interesting to me. It's it's uh I think it's given me a a way of looking deep deeper in self-observation than I would have thought of.

[01:08:43]>> In that case, we have succeeded.

[01:08:46]>> It feels that way. I mean, it feels like it's a >> This has been a real >> great thing to learn.

[01:08:54]>> Yeah, that's the whole point of this talk that we are going to blow the cover off of some secret stuff that you guys are not supposed to know unless you're, you know, in the club.

[01:09:11]So, the the real secret is you're all in the club.

[01:09:19]All right. So, >> I feel a little bit like like what's your name? You're in the club. And you were in the club. And you >> Chris is excited. He's in the club. You were You were in the club. You don't even have to worry about that. So, I I see Oh, can you put your hand up? I did see Sheree unmuted first and and then we'll have we'll bring it in.

[01:09:42]>> And then Michael has something.

[01:09:44]>> Yeah.

[01:09:45]So this has actually clarified uh the the pain management part for me because two months ago I dislocated my knee >> and the pain was excruciating and my bedroom's upstairs but the bathroom is downstairs. So how to get up and down the stairs. I could either wallow in the self-pity of the content is I'm in pain, I can't move, blah blah blah or figure it out. You need to go to the bathroom.

[01:10:14]you're not going to do it upstairs in your bedroom. So, I'm thinking, you know, when when I start focusing on the process, that's just a little basic thing that okay, I have to do this. If I've got pain for this, so now I yesterday I had a little test of tennis, which is my favorite sport of all.

[01:10:33]>> I could stand there and hit the ball, but I couldn't run. And my friends are going, you can hit the ball pretty well, but I said only if it's coming at me. So now I've got to figure out what is the process to get my leg strong enough to start running again. And and so this is goes for anything that's emotional or physical pain or or emotional pain. How do I figure out the process to get where I want to be versus staying where I am in the pain? That's my big thing at the moment. I think what that >> Yeah. And you need to get a t-shirt for when you play tennis that says nah, you can't hit me. Make sure that the ball is always coming at you.

[01:11:21]>> Well, I I said, "You got to hit it to me." And of course, it was everywhere else. And I go, "Well, I've got no chance of being hit here."

[01:11:30]>> I was thinking, >> "We need a ticket that says figure it out."

[01:11:35]>> Figure it out. Yeah.

[01:11:38]bumper stick.

[01:11:38]>> My fighting monkey teacher Yas Feek, he always just kept saying that in the entire workshop, figure it out. Shoot, did you catch all that? Did you get all the instructions? And all my friends are going, what? And that was his teaching point that if I told you how to figure it out, you won't figure it out for the next time the problem comes along. And I think that's part of your teaching here is we're looking at other little examples and you've just told us it's process but you haven't said >> how to do that process because we've got to figure it out because every situation is different might be emotional mental something you have to figure it out yourself >> I mean that's you can get help you can get guidance you can get feedback you can have a strategizing buddy, >> whatever. But no one could solve that puzzle for you.

[01:12:36]>> That's right. That's right.

[01:12:38]>> There's a a great saying by JG Bennett, which was he he once said, um, I teach you how to cook, not what to cook.

[01:12:51]>> And that's interesting. So, I think Ala is up next.

[01:12:56]>> Yeah.

[01:12:57]Great, Sheree. Thanks.

[01:12:59]>> Um I simply wanted to um add to Ian's question. Ian you asked what's the deeper um meaning I felt the deeper meaning of this was not only um the process and then how uh we are doing it. It's also who is doing it. That's the deeper like if you start seeing how go deeper and say who is doing it. Will that be the deeper meaning of this story?

[01:13:40]>> It could be. Or you could go deeper still and say who is doing it?

[01:13:45]>> Yeah.

[01:13:48]>> You only get that if you speak Arabic.

[01:13:51]>> Got it. Now I got it.

[01:13:56]Oo. Yeah.

[01:14:01]>> Thank you, WA. That was that was lovely.

[01:14:03]>> Yeah.

[01:14:04]>> Yeah. And uh Chris has a thought and Michael has a thought. I'm going to Michael has been in the chat for a minute. He says, "Examine your assumptions, then examine the assumptions behind your assumptions."

[01:14:18]>> Dang right.

[01:14:21]>> Well put. Yes, Chris. I just wanted to point out Shere in your story your your will guided the process right so what you what you were desiring the end point that you wanted that then shaped all the the processes or at least your decision of what processes to engage in. So um I I found that very interesting of like what's behind process.

[01:14:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. And there are reasons why just getting to that point of having will and be challenging. And we've done a lot of discussion about that. But I think that that ties into what RM was saying about, you know, one clue for me is do they have something that they are actively doing or not? Because that is a sign that will is active in a conscious way. more conscious way.

[01:15:20]Yep. But you can have the will to will.

[01:15:25]You got to start somewhere.

[01:15:30]>> All right. I uh Do you have anything else you want to add, Mushtuk?

[01:15:34]>> No, I think that we've covered everything that we intended to cover.

[01:15:38]>> Yeah. Thank you everybody.

[01:15:40]>> Yeah, and you all did great. And as always, I I think I can speak with for Nor in this, too, that we are both always impressed by the quality of people who show up here and actually talk with us.

[01:15:54]>> Yeah.

[01:15:55]>> Don't let it go to your heads, but you're all pretty cool.

[01:16:00]>> Yep. And you help us out. You help enrich the thing, you know.

[01:16:07]>> All right, then. Oh, we do need to do >> Oh, yeah. This the the thing. thing.

[01:16:12]>> Hey guys, if you enjoyed this content, then please like this video and along with liking this video, consider subscribing to our channel because our channel is very cool for reasons that we haven't even talked about yet. And while you're doing that, you could think about doing such things as making a donation because we we survive entirely off your donations. We don't do sponsorships. We, you know, we get probably $100 every four months from ad revenue because that's the only way we can make sure that you don't get spammed with the worst possible ads. So, you'll never see whiskey ads on our our channel. Um, so you can do that. And if you're really liking the idea of this work, you can have a one-on-one or a twoon-one session with us or a series of sessions to help you um create your own program of work that is suitable specifically for you.

[01:17:20]>> Yeah. And >> and nobody else >> as we've been talking about >> that can be really helpful and really important. It was helpful for both Nor and I, >> right? Yeah. Been there.

[01:17:34]>> So, like, subscribe, leave a comment. We love your comments.

[01:17:39]>> Chris is giving us a little a little some props. He says, "Orbook a private 10 out of 10. Would recommend." Thank you.

[01:17:47]>> Yeah.

[01:17:49]>> Yeah. And I just want to give Mush props for developing this story into something pretty cool to share with all of us today. and I really enjoyed reading it.

[01:17:59]So, thank you.

[01:18:01]>> It was my pleasure.

[01:18:03]>> Yeah.

[01:18:04]>> And you read it great.

[01:18:06]>> From now on, you're going to have to read all the stories.

[01:18:09]>> Well, all right. I'm happy to do that.

[01:18:12]>> So, I'm going to switch over to Brady Bunch mode.

[01:18:15]>> Okay.

[01:18:16]>> And we can start our exit strategy.

[01:18:22]>> All right, everyone. We won't keep you any longer, but thank you so much for joining us. It's been a lovely time and it's great to see you spend this time together. We'll wave to each other. See you next week at our usual 6:30 time pacific pm. You You know what I mean?

[01:18:39]>> That thing. Yeah.

[01:18:40]>> Love you guys.

[01:18:41]>> Take care. Bye.