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[00:00:00]Hi there everyone. It's 4:00 in New York. The reviews are in for Donald Trump's latest move, his latest vendetta case in the courts and they are brutal.

[00:00:08]Even from notable MAGA corners and MAGA friendly legal eagles, they are bcking today at the criminal charges that have been levied against former director of the FBI Jim Comey over his beach shell art. And Republicans already deeply deeply concerned about being wiped out in the midterms and saddled with a president whose approval ratings keep sinking lower and lower and lower now have fresh fears that voter backlash over a president who seems completely disinterested in their economic concerns will continue to dig this hole he's in.

[00:00:45]as Trump's efforts to prosecute his critics and stamp out free speech in America dominates the headlines coming from the Trump White House. Jonathan Trirley of all people, he's a Fox News fixture. He is a loyal, avid defender of Donald Trump. He actually testified for Donald Trump during the impeachment hearings in 2019. He's even defended Trump's decision to go to war with Iran without consulting Congress first. Now, today he's saying this quote, "I would prefer to crawl into one of Comey's conversant shells and write a column supporting him. However, here we are.

[00:01:18]The fact is that I believe that this indictment is facially unconstitutional absent some unknown new facts." Turley goes on to say that it is unconstitutional because it tramples on a right we as Americans hold dear, the right to free speech. Jonathan Turley adding this quote. In forming this more perfect union, we created the world's greatest protection of free speech in history. It is arguably the most American contribution to our Bill of Rights. Great Britain did not and still does not protect free speech as we do.

[00:01:51]It comes as a cost. Perhaps Comey is that cost. However, he has a right to write out any hateful thoughts that come to him on his walks on the beach. For the record, Comey says he did not write out anything. He says he was on a walk and he came upon the shells on the beach, took a picture of them, and posted it on his instant Instagram.

[00:02:13]Either way, though, what's at stake here are big huge matters, big huge American matters of free expression and free speech. And you don't have to accept my word for it or anyone here at this network. You can take it from another MAGA fixture. Another regular over on Fox News, Andrew McCarthy, who writes this in the conservativeleaning National Review. Quote, "If it's possible, the Trump Justice Department's new indictment of former FBI Director Jim Comey is even more absurd than the previous indictment. That one failed to state a crime. This one fabricates a crime." It is a point echoed by Jim Comey's legal team earlier today. Comey appeared alongside the same attorneys who defended him in his first indictment, Pat Fitzgerald and Jessica Carmichael. He did not enter a plea, but his lawyers said that they would seek to dismiss the case on the basis of vindictive prosecution. It's a strategy that actually succeeded in getting the first Comey case dismissed. One of Comey's attorneys also asked the judge about preserving inflammatory statements made about Comey by the president and officials at the Justice Department. An allout and politically unpopular assault on free speech in America, thinly disguised as a criminal case against Jim Comey that is only adding to the fisers and Trump's coalition is where we start today. Former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI and national security and intelligence analyst for us, Michael Fineberg is back. Also joining us, former deputy national security adviser to President Obama, now the co-host of Pod Save the World, contributor Ben Rhodess is here, and former Department of Justice pardon attorney Liz Oyer is here as well. Um Liz, I start with you on today's court appearance. Um it it strikes me because I I think here in in year 9, year 10, whatever it is, it feels like year 77. Um, what ways can we articulate both how autocratic and how wildly unpopular and how out of control Trump's Justice Department is acting?

[00:04:17]And to me, the indictment of Todd Blanch's conduct from Jonathan Turley and Mr. McCarthy is as good a place to sort of illustrate how out of the mainstream of MAGA legal minds they really are.

[00:04:31]>> It's really shocking and chilling and frankly upsetting, Nicole. I mean, it's really truly shaken a lot of people, including myself, to see how off the rails this Justice Department has come and how quickly under Todd Blanch's leadership, the idea that he has brought this indictment that every lawyer on the planet seems to agree is not based on any legal merit should really shock and disturb everyone in this country. Todd Blanch has demonstrated that his number one priority is to be able to do what Pam Bondi has not succeeded in doing, which is to prosecute Donald Trump's political enemies. And he has demonstrated that he will go to any length under the sun to accomplish that, even if it means blatantly ignoring the legal requirements. One thing that I noticed from his press conference yesterday announcing these charges and from his press conference announcing the charges against the Southern Poverty Law Center is that he is not afraid to mislead the public about what the grand jury process involves about what the legal standards are for bringing a case and proving guilt. He just openly misstates the law and provides misinformation about how the justice system works in furtherance of his political objectives, which is a very scary thing to have coming from the top official over the Justice Department.

[00:05:51]>> Liz, why do you think he does that? I mean, it's it's not like um this moment won't end. Why do you think he lies so brazantly?

[00:06:02]>> I think that he is totally focused on power. He is in a position of power. He wants to keep that power and he is essentially drunk with power and making decisions that have no place in an official capacity like the one that he serves. I mean, this indictment, it really is a betrayal of the integrity of the justice system. He is misusing the justice system in a way that should really offend every single American. And the fact that he lies about it, the fact that he says things that are not true, shows that he has no regard for facts or law or evidence. All he cares about is getting a result for his boss, which is just totally improper from the acting US attorney or acting attorney general for the United States.

[00:06:50]>> Um, Ben Rhodess, it is jarring. Um, and just to pull back the curtain on our process here, we we gut check ourselves a thousand times when we present to our audience anything Megan Kelly says about anything or Tucker Carlson or Joe Rogan.

[00:07:06]Um, because they are not partners, right, in the effort to protect democracy. double and triple that gut check when it's Jonathan Turley who testified on behalf of Donald Trump, who has laundered some of Trump's policies over the last 10 years, who before Trump was was also a Fox News fixture and sort of stood at that fork in the road and then threw in allin with Donald Trump.

[00:07:28]His rebuke is sharper than just about anything I saw on on this network or any mainstream outlet um over the last 24 hours. What is your theory of the case for why Trump's closest allies in MAGA adjacent media are condemning this indictment?

[00:07:47]>> Well, Nicole, um, look, I'd like to believe that there's a substantive reason that people object to this kind of brazen authoritarian persecution of one's enemies. There's a cynical part of me though that is looking at the fact that Donald Trump is polling at, you know, 33% I think is the last number that I saw. I mean, just epically low polling numbers and those numbers are only going in one direction. Donald Trump has kind of lost the plot even on what MAGA cares about with his war in Iran. Uh, the midterm elections are coming. Uh, the next presidential election is around the corner. Donald Trump will not be on the ballot. Uh, and what I'm getting at here is that I think people on the right are beginning to look past Donald Trump. They're beginning to realize that, as you just said in your question, this isn't permanent. You know, Todd Blanch in the best scenario for Todd Blanch, he gets to be in that job what, two and a half more years, and then he has the rest of his life to deal with. So does Jonathan Turley. so does Tucker Carlson, you know, and and so I think what some of these people are doing is that they're beginning to realize that the sun is setting on Donald Trump and therefore his grip on the Republican party and its associated media uh and uh you know, external support organs. Um you know, he's losing that grip. Um I think that's I think that's what's happening, Nicole, to be honest. I mean, yes, I think there's some seere policy difference.

[00:09:11]You know, Tucker Carlson clearly does not like the war in Iran. Not suggesting that there's not policy disagreement, but the willingness to be this outspoken, I think, is tied to the fact that people are beginning to look to the future in which Donald Trump is no longer at the center of politics or the center of attention or the center even of MAGA.

[00:09:28]>> I mean, I I think to be less um sort of elegant about it, the case is absolute garbage. I mean, I think the other thing is like this is lowhanging fruit. If you're an actual lawyer, this seems like a good one to say. This is this is the bottom of the garbage on the bottom of the garbage can. I mean, Ben, it feels like the more unpopular Trump gets, the more desperate and in some ways shocking his conduct is, the the the more sort of um out of the authoritarian closet he he gets. Um, but that has this ancillary effect of letting anyone trying to separate themselves from him smack him down before any political opponents can.

[00:10:16]>> That's right. You're exactly right, Nicole. And they're looking for the easy ones where they can show, oh, I was willing to call this out or I was willing to have a difference or, you know, in the case of like Tucker Carlson or Jeran, they're looking at issues where they have an instinct that their own audience doesn't like what Trump's doing, that their own audience is unhappy about high gas prices. So, they're responding to their audience.

[00:10:36]Um, but your your point about look, if some people listen to this and say, "Well, this sounds great." Like, you know, the sun's setting on Trump, it's kind of scary, too, because I do think he's not someone who will accept irrelevance. He's someone who's probably acutely aware that the sand is running through the hourglass of his time as president. And he might get more extreme. He may very well get more extreme uh in his actions. And what that means is that whether it's, you know, Jonathan Turley or any of these other people, they're going to at some point have to take harder stands. Um, because the issue is probably going to be pressed again and again. This isn't the last time Donald Trump's going to try to persecute his political opponents, right? Iran might not be the last war, but whatever the thing, the corruption that we see on a day-to-day basis will get more brazen, right? As they're trying to essentially loot the store before it has new ownership. Uh and so actually I think it's not going to be as easy as some of people might think to just say I'm going to take a freebie and you know come out against this one thing that this is going to keep happening and the question is going to keep getting called to all these people and ultimately it's going to get called to the Republicans in Congress and to the Supreme Court of the United States.

[00:11:43]>> Michael, you were here yesterday. I mean I I think the Trump piece of this is is so known and so covered. I think the New York Times first reported that Doman stopped Donald Trump from pro using DOJ to prosecute Hillary Clinton and Jim Comey in 2017. Um I mean he's wanted to do this thing for nine years. So the fact that we can now hold up Todd Blanch's integrity against um Sessions bar I think there was one more guy there at the end. I forget his name. um Bondi like Donald Trump tried to get five other human beings to do what Todd Lynch did yesterday and Jeff Sessions, Bill Barr, the last guy whose name escapes me and Pam Bondi wouldn't. But Todd Lynch would What does that say about the moment we're in?

[00:12:37]>> Look, I think there is something that explains this moment very well. And you know, I I'll confess I'm not as optimistic as Liz and Ben. And I'll explain why.

[00:12:52]Donald Trump is somebody who was indicted by a jury of his peers in an attempt to engineer a coup to overturn the results of a democratic election and stay in power. That has to be the background context by which we evaluate everything. So if Todd Blanch, if Donald Trump, if Cash Patel are doing things that don't seem to make sense because surely there will be some payback for the way they're behaving two and a half years from now.

[00:13:33]We need to wield AAM's razor. The simplest explanation for why that is happening is that they don't think they're going to be out of power. And it's important to remember to look back to January 6th to recognize that they don't have to engineer a coup like something out of a Hollywood movie. They just have to be willing to throw one or two swing states into confusion to rile up the population. and create disorder.

[00:14:08]Liz talked about how Todd Blanch often misstates the law. I could not agree more. And the first thing that I'm aware of, the first occurrence where that happened is when he said he sees nothing wrong with armed federal agents at polling places. There is a statute that very clearly disallows that.

[00:14:30]But these people are not acting like they're ever going to leave office. And I think as long as they have the belief that there is a chance their terms may be extended, they're going to continue going after their opponents no matter how specious the methods and charges are. And >> I mean that yeah, >> we need to buckle in and expect this to keep happening.

[00:14:55]>> Well, I think we need to do more than buckle in. think we need to stop having fake conversations and um that's why I I'm glad you're here today to sort of steer this to the nitty-gritty. What does it argue that we do then instead of asking questions like why are they doing something so unpopular? Why are they doing something so hypocritical? Why didn't the far-right influencers who posted 86 46 get charged? I mean, your your answer is because they don't believe the rules apply to them. And and so what do we look to? Do we look to Orban? Do we look to a participation level where the results are undeniable and incorruptible? I mean, what does that argue for the rest of us?

[00:15:40]>> I think we really only have two things that we can hang our hats on. The first is you mentioned mass participation. It has ended regimes that are far more concerning and far more malevolent than that of Donald Trump's. We saw it in the Velvet Revolutions at the end of the Cold War. We saw it in the Arab Spring.

[00:16:02]We saw it most recently with Orban. Um the No Kings protests are a good example. If you look at most political scientists studies of the question, once you get a certain amount of people involved in nonviolent but very visible protest movements, regimes tend not to last. The second thing is anybody who cares about democracy, um, no matter where you are on the political spectrum, I still hold a number of beliefs that I'm sure most of our audience would find retrograde and reactionary. But if you care about democracy more than you care about scoring specific policy victories, you need to ensure that the people elected this November are going to hold the executive branch to account. You know, Jim Comey a few months ago when you had him on talked about um having American government being a three-legged stool and right now we don't have the executive branch and we don't have Congress, but we have the an independent judiciary. Um far be it for me to contradict Jim Comey. He was the best FBI director under whom I ever worked.

[00:17:19]But a stool can't stand on one leg.

[00:17:23]We need to get Congress back to doing its job and being a check and balance on the other two branches. If we can't do that, I don't see how we get out of this quagmire.

[00:17:35]>> Well, I mean, two legs don't stand very well either. Um, but I take your point.

[00:17:39]I'll show you that sound. We'll continue down this path on the other side of a break. I know um Liz and Ben have a lot to say about it. Also ahead for us, Pete Hegs was on Capitol Hill today. He was performing and it was a performance in which he sought to in front of the tele television cameras defend both the extraordinary cost in terms of loss of life and dollars of the war in Iran and the reasoning or lack of public reason for it. We'll show you what that looked and sounded like and how lawmakers sought to challenge him and not challenge him. Plus, the United States Supreme Court is putting its sizable weight and power on our elections and the fight over redrawing congressional maps into fuller view, highlighting the court's alignment with the political agenda of the Republican party. We'll show you what that looked like. And later in the broadcast, comedian Jimmy Kimmel's parent company is standing by him today as he and his program and the stations at Erit continues to face nearly unprecedented harassment and threats from the Trump administration, including from the president and first lady. We'll get to all those stories and much more when deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go that his people will not treat you fairly now that you're under scrutiny.

[00:18:58]Sure, but we live in a realitybased world where people if they're going to make accusations have to make them in front of judges, have to put evidence forward, have to swear that things are true. I believe in our judiciary. I believe in that that one remaining leg of our three-legged stool, that independent judiciary is alive and well and gives me great comfort.

[00:19:21]>> Is that what you think will backs stop whatever comes at you from the Trump Justice Department? Sure. I I don't wouldn't expect anything to come at me from the shell business, but anything that did come at me if I get get more audits, more investigations, yes. Our saving grace, we still have a leg on our stool. If we lose that, I don't know where we are. But we have judges appointed by all different presidents of different parties who believe in the rule of law. And if you come into their courtroom, heaven help you if you're not telling the truth. that still exists in this country and should be a source of great comfort.

[00:19:59]>> There's a three-legged stool. Um, Liz, do you agree? Do you think his faith in that one leg being enough to hold us up in the near term is enough?

[00:20:11]>> I have faith in the courts and I also have faith in my fellow citizens. People do not like what they are seeing and they are speaking up about it and those are are both important lines of defense.

[00:20:22]But we are in a historically scary moment right now because we have a very bad man in charge of the most powerful law enforcement organization in the country. Blanch is different from Bondi who was a bit of an empty shell because he is truly on the same page as Donald Trump. He has talked about how he lived through Donald Trump's trials with him and he seems to feel the same sense of victimhood that Donald Trump feels and he has demonstrated that he will go to any lengths to vindicate him. The situation in the Justice Department right now is equivalent to giving the terrorists the nuclear codes. That's what we have right now. a person who is trying to blow up the legal system, wreak havoc on American citizens, who is in charge of these levers of power, including the FBI, the ATF, as well as the US attorney's offices who prosecute cases around the country. It is truly a terrifying moment for many of us. I feel very afraid to have a man like like Todd Blanch running the Justice Department, but I do think that there will be limits on what he can do because the courts have demonstrated that they will continue to stand strong against the abuse of power.

[00:21:33]>> Liz, are you worried for yourself and your former colleagues? Are you worried about the damage he does to eroding the rule of law or both?

[00:21:41]>> On a on a personal note, Nicole, I I'm worried for myself. I mean, I've had I had a security incident at my home after I I left the department that was very worrisome. And you know, the idea that I don't know that the Justice Department or the FBI is a place that I could turn for help because of the people who are in charge of it, that scares me. It scares me tremendously for myself and for my family. And I am certain that there are many other citizens, former employees of the Justice Department and beyond who feel the same way. We don't know if the institutions that are supposed to protect us are going to do to do that. They're the bad guys are on the inside now. And that is a very very alarming and upsetting place to be. And it's something that troubles me every single day.

[00:22:26]>> I'm sorry that um that that is the reality right now. Um, Michael Fenon talked a little bit about the crimes um against him being erased, that he was eliminated from victims databases because the crimes were erased when Donald Trump pardoned uh the insurrectionists. Um, I wonder Michael Fineberg, if I could put the same question to you. Um, are you worried?

[00:22:53]>> Like Liz, I feel quite confident that the FBI would not come to my aid if needed.

[00:22:58]Um, as to whether I'm worried, yeah, of course I'm worried on a lot of levels. Um, this is an administration that comes after critics. Um, and I have chosen Well, chosen's the wrong word. I I'm in the position of being a critic, but like Liz, like Ben, like yourself, when we were all in the executive branch, we took an oath to the Constitution. Um, that has to mean something. And it's worth noting that when we all raised our right hands and we repeated the words we were given them and we repeated them heartfeltly and seriously, it's notable that those words do not come with an expiration date. So, those of us who ever served our flag with honor, seeing it being trampled on by this administration, we have a duty to speak up. And quite frankly, the consequences are immaterial at this point. We can worry about that if and when it becomes something we have to worry about. But right now, those of us who really care about our country, who adore its ideals, who realize what a miracle its founding was, um, who understand its unique place as I still believe we can be, a shining city on the hill, we have no choice but to speak up.

[00:24:22]Um, and Ben, I I think we're lucky, right? We get to do it together. Um, I remember the first time I said I got swatted on TV and a whole bunch of other people who do what I get to do every day called me and said, "I I'm so glad you said that. I did, too." Um, and we shared we shared strategies for being in touch, knowing the phone number at your local precinct, knowing who to call, um, knowing what to do. I mean, the fact that Donald Trump has declared war on the First Amendment um seems to activate a lot of opposition within his own coalition. And I said this yesterday, I think it's notable that in this moment, Tucker Carlson has stepped away from him. There are a lot of people in his coalition who in the past have taken very absolute public positions in support of the First Amendment. Um, with the exception of the two I showed you, Turley and McCarthy, I haven't seen much outcry over this case, but I don't think it's I know it doesn't strengthen his coalition or his movement. And so, I guess that leads me back to asking you if you agree with Michael Fineberg that this is something darker. This isn't about making him popular. This isn't about making Republicans win. This is about clinging to power.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. No, I I agree with Michael and and I think it was right for him to to give that sobering reminder. And in a way when I referenced, you know, the harder choices to come um for for everybody, including Republicans, um that's what I was thinking about like the these people are not going to want to relinquish power. Um and look, I guess I put it a different way, Nicole. And and because you I've been in Donald Trump has posted pictures of of me in an orange jumpsuit and I don't I'm not flattered that much by it. He posts thousands of things and many people. So, I'm not trying to, you know, elevate myself in any way. Like, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of people he's threatened. And I should say there are truly vulnerable people in this country that are far more vulnerable than us as we've seen from from ICE raid. So, this is this is a lot of people are in this. Here's what I would say. We keep talking about the stool. Um, and that's kind of what we learned about in school, right? That the three branches of government. I think part of what we're learning though is that democracy is much bigger than those three branches of government in this country. You know, just just take these cases. Grand juries of our peers, our fellow citizens have laughed these cases out of court, too. It's not just judges.

[00:26:48]It's citizens and juries, right?

[00:26:50]Citizens in Minneapolis defended each other and vulnerable people in their city. State governments are going to have a lot to say about how much Donald Trump can try to federalize elections.

[00:27:01]State secretaries of state are going to have a lot to say about the question, you know, that Michael raised about when they tried to throw into chaos um state elections by saying there was fraud. um citizens mobilizing are going to have a lot to say uh and and and even polling frankly because you know Republicans when they have to make that call if Donald Trump is trying to cling to power or overturn election or or to the military uh into the streets and when there's this question about whether he will lose that kind of final you know source of support that he's had you know I'm not that hopeful in their courage because they've showed us for nine years that they have none. I do think that if he's polling at 25% and there's mass mobilization against him, it's going to make it harder for them to do the wrong thing. Uh and and sadly, I have to say it may be the affordability crisis and the state of the economy that is contributing to that too. If Donald Trump is polling at 55%, this would probably feel scarier. But I think we have to remember that democracy is not just that stool. That stool has failed.

[00:28:02]Those branches of government have failed us. The Supreme Court has failed us. It did it again today on the Voting Rights Act. Congress, Republicans in particular have failed us. But we can't just sit passively back and be like, when are they going to come to their senses? We are active participants in this democracy as well. We sit on juries. We can protest. We can call members of Congress. We can defend people at polling sites. There are all kinds of things that we can and probably will have to do. And I'm actually far more hopeful about that than about whether or not, you know, Mike Johnson and John Thun are going to grow a conscience one of these days.

[00:28:33]Conscience wasn't the word I was thinking you were going for, but yes, I agree. Um, I am always grateful that people come on the show because it is not without people attacking you for the things you say, repurposing them, taking them out of context, but especially today. Um, Michael Fineberg and Lzoyer, I really appreciate both of you. Thank you. Ben sticks around a little bit longer after the break for us from the cost and the strategic direction of the Warner or lack thereof. do the purges at the Pentagon which are ongoing. Pete Hegs today took questions from lawmakers.

[00:29:06]We'll show you what that look like next.