No Such Thing As A Pastronaut

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:04]Hi everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of No Such Thing as a Fish. Uh, I have some very exciting news for you, especially if you're the kind of person who likes live podcasts because that's right, we're going to do some live podcasts. Uh, they will be on the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, and 25th of July at the Royal Institution in London. We'll be performing at the Lecture Theater, which is the home of the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures. It's an extremely venerable place. Not sure quite why they're letting us go there, but they are. And the shows will be a whole lot of fun, I am sure. Now, the reason I'm telling you today is because exclusive pre-sale has begun for Clubfish members.

[00:00:45]So, if you want to guarantee your tickets, uh, you will have to go to patreon.com/clubfish and join now. that will get you access to the pre-sale for the next 7 days. And if there are any tickets left, they will go on sale on Friday the 5th of June.

[00:01:00]It's not a very big theater. It's a lot smaller than the venues we normally play. So, it's up to you if you want to push your luck or not. Uh, but one more good thing to say is that on the 21st of July show, there will be online live stream tickets available. So, if you don't get tickets or if you live somewhere that is way too far from London for you to get tickets, then you will be able to get tickets there. So, anyway, all the information for this is available now for Patreon members at patreon.com/clubfish and the information will be available for everyone else next Friday. So, listen up there. Now, before we get on with the podcast, I do believe Dan and Anna wanted to tell you something very exciting that has been happening at Qi HQ.

[00:01:43]>> That's right. So QI has created self-guided walking tours of London. Not just any walking tours. Walking tours full of amazing weird QI facts narrated by none other than an upand cominging talent, Steven Fry. That's right. Steven will be taking on a tour around Westminster and that tour begins at Big Ben. Uh there's the tour of the city and Bankside which starts at St. Paul's Cathedral and it is just rampacked with the kind of facts that Qi is the best and only place really to go to for.

[00:02:13]>> That's right. So, if you want to find out why Londoners used to take baths with geese or how John Cle pranked Michael Palin at the Globe Theater, then look up Voice Map on the App Store. It's a GPS activated app that lets you explore at your own pace and accompanies you with these facts.

[00:02:28]>> That's right. And also, it will take in your phone's location. So, if you happen to be in a spot that's relevant to the tour, Steven will just start talking to you from your phone. It's absolutely brilliant. Who doesn't want that?

[00:02:39]Injections of fry into your daily life.

[00:02:42]Get it now. As Anna says, it's on the app store or go to voicemap.me/qi.

[00:02:49]Okay, >> on with the show.

[00:03:07]Hello and welcome to another episode of No Such Thing as a Fish, a weekly podcast coming to you from the QI offices in Hoburn. My name is Dan Shriber. I am sitting here with Anna Tashinsky, Andrew Hunter Murray, and James Harkin. And once again, we have gathered around the microphones with our four favorite facts from the last seven days. And in no particular order, here we go. Starting with fact number one and that is Anna.

[00:03:32]>> My fact this week is that the reason chefs started wearing hairetss around food was to keep the hairet industry going.

[00:03:41]>> That's it's amazing.

[00:03:43]>> I don't think of it as being an industry even. I suppose >> someone has to make them.

[00:03:47]>> Exactly. Someone make them. I just Exactly. Someone's going to make them. I just never just never think thought about that.

[00:03:52]>> You never think about the hairnet makers, do you? I imagined it would be like a cottage industry, some kind of village in the north of England where they're all made.

[00:03:59]>> Yeah, >> maybe in the 1500s perhaps, but I think now like everything else, some giant city in China where they're all made.

[00:04:08]>> Um, so hairetss, nothing to do with hygiene. It turns out this is because bobs happened in the 19s, 1920s. That is women had had long hair.

[00:04:18]Suddenly the bob became fashionable uh short hair and they didn't need hairetss anymore. So for hundreds of years, women had worn hair nets to sort of keep their hair tidy. They lie in hairets to stop it messing up on their pillows. They have it so that it keeps the curlers in.

[00:04:33]The bob meant none of that's necessary.

[00:04:35]The hairet industry plummets and the hairet maker Venita, the biggest hairet maker around in the US, hired marketing bloke Edward Bernay.

[00:04:44]>> Oh, of we've talked about before, haven't we?

[00:04:47]>> I think we have mentioned him before.

[00:04:48]>> I think he invented Did he invent egg and chips or something? It was he >> bacon and eggs.

[00:04:53]>> Bacon and eggs. He made that the American breakfast. He was the one He was that PR spin master. He's the one who made it so that women became a massive market for the cigarette industry. Um, sticks of joy or liberty, torches of liberty. Um, >> so he was hired by the hairet makers and he cuz he was a PR genius, he did two main things. He got in touch with loads of celebs and said, "Hey, start talking about how great long hair is because we need to get hairetss going again." And then B, he thought, I'm going to sort of spread this rumor that it's really unhygienic to have hair fall into your food. So in restaurants and stuff, if hair gets in the food, that's very bad.

[00:05:27]So he spread this rumor that um you know, you get all sorts of diseases from that. And within a couple of years, it was state law throughout the US to have hair nets in restaurants if you were working around the >> So people didn't used to care if you got hair in the food.

[00:05:40]>> They liked it. It was actively sought after.

[00:05:42]>> You know that joke, wait till there's a hair in my soup. Don't say it too loud or everyone will want one. That was based on real life.

[00:05:49]>> Yeah. Wasn't a joke. Yeah. That was just what you'd say.

[00:05:51]>> You You used Apparently, it used to be more that you would say, "Oh, you're you're you're around like a hair in a soup."

[00:05:56]>> It sounds like that's annoying, though.

[00:05:57]>> But you would never send it back.

[00:05:58]Whereas it was Yeah, it was annoying.

[00:06:00]Something that happens.

[00:06:01]>> Yeah, exactly. It's just something that's inevitable.

[00:06:03]>> I mean, it is gross finding a hair anywhere that's not on someone's head.

[00:06:06]Let's be real.

[00:06:07]>> Um, so fair enough. It's I think >> or another part of their body like >> another Yeah, >> you can eat hair.

[00:06:13]>> Yeah, you can eat hair. Yeah. I think the point for me is if you see a hair in the soup, it means that they're not necessarily paying attention to the other parts of hygiene.

[00:06:21]>> It's the brown M&M.

[00:06:22]>> There you go.

[00:06:23]>> It's the brown M&M's.

[00:06:24]>> Yeah. If I see a brown M&M in my soup, then first of all, I think it's probably something else.

[00:06:28]>> Yes.

[00:06:30]>> What was the band?

[00:06:31]>> Van Halen. Vanal.

[00:06:32]>> Van Halen. That was it. Bernay single-handedly probably is responsible for the reason the hairet industry is back. But the reason it almost toppled was because of one person as well, which was Irene Castle, >> who was this big dancer. She did the fox trot. She was very famous for it. And 1915, she got her haircut into a bob.

[00:06:51]And by 1918, it was being reported that 20,000 women weekly were adopting this new hairstyle.

[00:06:56]>> Yeah. And it was called the castle bob.

[00:06:58]Initially, bobs were. And it was a very liberating thing for women. This is why and people society was afraid cuz women loved it.

[00:07:03]>> Bernay said of that her net makers are in a state of panic. Herpin manufacturers are laying off workers and the hair comb industry is in disarray.

[00:07:13]>> Right.

[00:07:14]>> The entire economy was about to plummet.

[00:07:16]>> Yeah.

[00:07:17]>> And I found the most valuable hairnet ever.

[00:07:20]>> Oh yeah.

[00:07:21]>> Well, this is the most valuable one I've been able to find.

[00:07:24]>> Of course.

[00:07:24]>> Any guesses as to the value in pound sterling?

[00:07:27]>> You're going to have to tell us more about it.

[00:07:29]>> Is it like Marilyn Monroe's hairet?

[00:07:31]>> It's worn It's a celebrity's hairet. It was sold at auction in 2003. I'm not going to say who wore it, though. I just want a bit of a blind.

[00:07:39]>> I want a blind punt on this of the value.

[00:07:41]>> Beyonce and it went for 400,000.

[00:07:46]>> But I'm not going to specify yet which currency. Okay.

[00:07:49]>> Bruce Willis 400 quid.

[00:07:52]>> Bruce Willis.

[00:07:53]>> That's right.

[00:07:53]>> Okay.

[00:07:54]>> An ironic thing he did.

[00:07:55]>> Yeah.

[00:07:57]>> I'm going to say Elsie Tanner from Coronation Street and Two and Six.

[00:08:03]>> That's very Can I change my >> No, you can't. James has already won it.

[00:08:08]This was one worn by Ena Sharples >> on Coronation Street.

[00:08:12]>> Kidding.

[00:08:12]>> And it was sold at a a Cornish auction house for 50 quid.

[00:08:16]>> 50 quid.

[00:08:17]>> The buyer wished to remain anonymous.

[00:08:18]>> Did you Dad?

[00:08:21]>> Was it signed?

[00:08:23]>> Bits of it where the holes get in the way.

[00:08:26]>> That's the only person I could think of who wears hairets.

[00:08:28]>> Exactly. And it's the only I think it's the only hairet that's ever been auctioned. I suspect.

[00:08:32]>> I can't believe that. If you know of a more expensive hairet >> podcast at qi.com, what am I doing?

[00:08:39]>> You know, when I was in China, there was um a fashion among trendy young women to, you know, those like sort of big hair curlers that you get to make a perm.

[00:08:51]>> They would get one of those, the biggest one you could possibly find, and then attach it to the fringe and just wear it all the time.

[00:08:58]>> That's a cool fashion, isn't it?

[00:08:59]>> It's a cool look cuz that's a bit of Coronation Street, isn't it?

[00:09:02]seen in your curers.

[00:09:04]>> First I thought was Coronation Street, but in China it's the height of fashion >> in Cory. Is it a bad thing to be seen out in your curlers? Is it like, "Oh, she's got no selfrespect."

[00:09:12]>> Yeah. What would happen is like some ruckus would happen in Weatherfield and then one of the women who's inside doing the perm would sort of have to run outside in the dressing gown and stuff and the curlers and they'd be like, "Ah, what you doing, Jack?"

[00:09:27]>> We've all been there. It's good. It's good. That's basically all episodes of Coronation Street for the last 60 years.

[00:09:33]Love it. Love it.

[00:09:35]>> Well, on China, China kept the hairet industry going.

[00:09:39]>> Oh.

[00:09:40]>> So, people decided they wanted hairs made of human hair around the turn of the 20th century.

[00:09:45]>> Really?

[00:09:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Make them out of human hair cuz then they're sort of invisible. They disappear into your hair.

[00:09:49]>> That's just a wig, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:09:51]>> It's a wig but without mo with most of the hair missing.

[00:09:54]>> Oh. So a net just made out of woven hair so that it looks realistic or so that it sort of disappears into your hair. Yeah.

[00:10:01]>> Um anyway they Americans imported them from Germany for ages early 1900s and then someone opening their hairnet from Germany found a little cut newspaper cutting in Chinese and they went and investigated the German factories and they've been importing them from China where a million women were employed making hairetss out of men's hair. So, it was the time in the Manchu dynasty where men had those long plats at the back. So, there was a lot of long hair to be cut off.

[00:10:27]>> Yes. I'm sorry.

[00:10:28]>> Yeah.

[00:10:28]>> A million women.

[00:10:30]>> That's correct.

[00:10:31]>> I know that China's got a big population.

[00:10:32]>> It does.

[00:10:33]>> But at the time, it would have been >> It was smaller.

[00:10:35]>> 200 million, 300 million, like 200 million tops.

[00:10:38]>> And I want to correct myself. It was only half a million women.

[00:10:40]>> Oh, wow.

[00:10:41]>> Oh, that's completely, >> but there was a big mirror at the side of the factory.

[00:10:48]>> There was a shortage of nurses in China as a result. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.

[00:10:52]>> And what was the controversy with this?

[00:10:54]Because that does sound above board.

[00:10:56]It's guys cutting off their hair. It was being made into hairets. Was it that Germany was palming it off as if they were making it?

[00:11:01]>> Yeah, Germany was claiming they were making, but they were actually exploiting cheap Chinese labor, which thank god we don't do anymore um in order to import.

[00:11:09]>> Agreed. When I say what's the problem, that wasn't part of what I meant.

[00:11:12]>> It's just capitalism, guys.

[00:11:14]>> I'll give you a hairet controversy just while we're still on those. Um, in 2000, a British celebrity did not wear one.

[00:11:21]>> Wow.

[00:11:22]>> And it led to led to controversy.

[00:11:24]>> I'm going to say enemy of the podcast.

[00:11:26]>> Who's that?

[00:11:27]>> Greg Wallace.

[00:11:28]>> Not Greg Wallace. Another >> I thought it might be an unhursuit man who doesn't really need one, but they wanted them to wear it.

[00:11:35]>> I'd say this man didn't really need one even in 2000 when he was a younger man.

[00:11:38]He's not with us anymore.

[00:11:40]>> Oh, >> Dan does an incredible impression of him.

[00:11:42]>> Oh, that could be anyone.

[00:11:44]>> Oh, Prince Phillip.

[00:11:45]>> Prince Phillip. All right.

[00:11:50]Prince Phillip was visiting a factory in an Australian place called Wagger.

[00:11:55]>> Yeah.

[00:11:56]>> Which we've talked about before cuz it's spelled wagawaga but it's pronounced wagger >> once.

[00:12:00]>> Just that.

[00:12:01]>> Yeah.

[00:12:01]>> And you only say one wagger.

[00:12:03]>> Yeah.

[00:12:03]>> That's wag.

[00:12:04]>> It's got a silent wagger.

[00:12:06]>> Silent waga.

[00:12:08]>> It's extraordinary.

[00:12:09]>> If you've never been to Waga Mama, that's where it's from. It's misconception that they're Asian.

[00:12:13]Anyway, um Prince Phillip was in Waga and uh he was visiting a cheese factory, but there were shots of him released uh to the public that showed him surrounded by people wearing hairetss and he was leaning over a big vat of cheese, but they they said they were considering saving the 24 cubic feet of cheese, which they might have to destroy and releasing a batch of Prince Phillip cheese.

[00:12:35]>> I think that's not a nice product.

[00:12:36]>> I don't think so. No, Dan would pay a lot for that.

[00:12:40]>> You know me. And that was 2000. Yeah.

[00:12:42]And just to think, just three years later, the most expensive hairet will be sold at auction.

[00:12:48]>> Wow.

[00:12:49]>> It was a big era for hairets, wasn't it?

[00:12:52]>> I did a deep dive on BBC news stories that involved the word hair. That's where those both came from.

[00:12:57]>> A deep dive.

[00:12:59]>> Was it how deep we talking here?

[00:13:01]>> I went back a quarter of a century. What do you want?

[00:13:05]>> You know, around the same time as this hen debacle that I mentioned, not your Prince Philip debacle. Um, America's first female self-made millionaire happened, made herself, and she made it in the hair product industry.

[00:13:20]>> Really?

[00:13:20]>> Yeah. America's first female self-made industry was a woman called Madame CJ Walker, and she specialized in hair care products for African-American women. And she made herself a million. She was literally She was the first member of her family born out of slavery, born into complete poverty, orphaned, married at 14, widowed at 20 with two kids, became a millionaire. She used to sell sulfur and she was a very good marketer because I don't know if it worked to actually do it much good to her. It just stank like sulfur >> but she made herself a millionaire from it.

[00:13:49]>> Good.

[00:13:49]>> Cool.

[00:13:50]>> Um hygiene in kitchens.

[00:13:51]>> Yeah, >> probably we can say Karem did it a little bit but Es Scafier is the main one. We mentioned the Scafier a little bit in the past. He's like a big famous old chef who worked at the Seavoi in the late 19th century I think. Um, but he basically got into the Seavoy kitchen and other ones and just saw that they were really horrible places to work. You know, lots of smoke, people weren't really doing any hygiene, any sanitation, anything like that. If you had any hydration at all, it came in the form of wine. You just drink a load of wine.

[00:14:25]>> Uh, so he kind of invented the idea of the tall hat that they wear, uh, the necker chief that you have to kind of keep all the sweat in. Uh, and he also commissioned a French doctor to develop a special barley drink uh that he would give to all of his chefs so they could keep hydrated without drinking any wine.

[00:14:44]>> Sounds like it was just beer.

[00:14:46]>> Um, it could have been water. It could be barley water like you have at Wimbledon.

[00:14:50]>> I do like I like a bit of barley water.

[00:14:52]>> You do surprise me, Andy.

[00:14:55]>> We've been to the pub enough times.

[00:14:58]>> Okay. A glass of wine, pint of Reynolds for Dan and Andy. Oh, another barley water. Okay. small. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:04]>> I love that. I I hadn't clocked that the chef's outfit would largely be to keep you out of the food that you were making.

[00:15:11]>> Yeah, kind of. And the white bit was from Karem who came before him and that was to show off if there's any stains and stuff. So you can see >> And if there stains, is it good or bad?

[00:15:19]Like it's good because it shows that you've been near the food.

[00:15:22]>> No, it's bad. And it shows that once there's so many stains that your shirt is no longer white, you probably need to swap it for a white one.

[00:15:29]>> Yeah, fair enough. No, just checking.

[00:15:31]I'd be suspicious. that you're not the real cook.

[00:15:34]>> Oh, like never trust a skinny cook. That kind of thing.

[00:15:36]>> Same with Same with your bed sheets, for instance. You You don't want white bed sheets cuz they're suspicious. No one's ever slept in that.

[00:15:42]>> Exactly. I need to know a few stains on that.

[00:15:46]>> They need to be tried and tested.

[00:15:48]>> I want to be the 10th or the 11th user.

[00:15:50]>> Whenever you visit a travel lodge, you're like, there'd have to be a few stains on this at least.

[00:15:54]>> Yeah. And you do the quick the hand test to make sure it's a bit damp.

[00:15:58]>> Yes.

[00:15:59]Oh, I've signed up to Food Safety Magazine off the back of this research.

[00:16:03]That's right.

[00:16:03]>> They haven't asked me for any money, but I am willing to pay.

[00:16:07]It's an American publication and they do a well, as it sounds, it's Food Safety Magazine.

[00:16:11]>> Yeah, >> they've got their own podcast, >> do they?

[00:16:14]>> Right. Any nuggets from them?

[00:16:15]>> I only got as far as the initial sponsorship advert, which is by they're sponsored by IFC Chlorine Dioxide Treatments.

[00:16:22]>> Okay. And where where guys we're we're available to advertise glory dark side treatment.

[00:16:28]>> Is all your research time now taken up with >> memberships?

[00:16:31]>> Membership forms and >> managing memberships mostly.

[00:16:36]>> Is it cuz you have so much fun doing our inbox that you just want more and more emails to go into your personal inbox?

[00:16:43]>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's becoming a bit overwhelming.

[00:16:47]The heritage crafts industry, the lighthouse people, the Oh, the wallpaper history society, >> the Earth Webb Society.

[00:16:55]>> The Earthweb. They still haven't got in touch. They've got5 of my money. I've heard nothing from them. They've gone underground.

[00:17:09]>> Okay, it is time for fact number two, and that is James. Okay, my fact this week is that the fourth US president, James Madison, liked to get piggybacks off his wife.

[00:17:21]>> It's really sweet.

[00:17:22]>> We all would, wouldn't we, if it was possible?

[00:17:24]>> Yeah.

[00:17:25]>> Would you? Cuz I think it probably is. I reckon Bina could go a couple of yards.

[00:17:31]>> I'm afraid. I don't think so.

[00:17:33]>> Okay.

[00:17:33]>> I think I'm a bit heavy for her. As much as she has been to the gym recently, a suspicious amount, in fact. But never mind. That's really >> She's not getting any fist though.

[00:17:44]>> Um, so I read this on the website of James Madison's Melier, which is a plantation house of the Madison family.

[00:17:52]Uh, and the anecdote comes from someone who was talking about the guided tour that they've been on and all the facts that they learned there.

[00:17:58]>> Uh, and I think we've said before on this podcast that James Madison was 5'4.

[00:18:03]>> Yes.

[00:18:04]>> So he's very small. He's about the same height as Helen Mirin, Kevin Hart, and the official cut off for height to join the US Air Force.

[00:18:12]>> Um, but he was very small man and it meant that his wife could carry him and the the anecdote goes that he and some of his friends are in the gardens and they were messing around and joshing around and they would have races and during these races sometimes uh Dolly Madison, his wife, would carry him.

[00:18:28]Lovely >> great stuff. I didn't realize that the thing that was holding other presidents back from piggybacking on their wives was the fact that they were too big for their wives to carry them.

[00:18:36]>> What do you think was holding them back?

[00:18:38]Dignity or or >> they dignity? Why would you? There are other modes of transport that are faster and more convenient.

[00:18:44]>> It's been such a long time since anyone gave me a piggy bag.

[00:18:46]>> What's been holding you back?

[00:18:48]>> I don't I I haven't asked. Do you want one after the show?

[00:18:52]>> I would love one actually.

[00:18:53]>> Would you?

[00:18:53]>> I really would. It's just nice to get a piggy back from someone, isn't it?

[00:18:56]>> I agree. I think like if you go to gigs sometimes people might carry you on your shoulders.

[00:19:01]>> That's a shoulder. That's a shoulder ride. It's a completely different cat.

[00:19:04]You can't It's like comparing chalk and cheese.

[00:19:05]>> Well, also the kind of gigs I'm going to are mostly like the Barbin or maybe Junior Glindorn, but they're very few people riding on each other's shoulders clarinet just >> chalk and cheese both begin with ch of course which makes them a little bit similar in the same way that piggybacks and shoulder rides are quite similar.

[00:19:25]>> Really good point. Um, so Madison >> Yeah.

[00:19:28]>> had, as we've said, the shortest presidency.

[00:19:30]>> Yeah. Uh, no.

[00:19:31]>> Well, he he was only Henry Harrison.

[00:19:34]>> He was only 5'4, so he had the shortest.

[00:19:36]>> Yeah.

[00:19:37]>> Yep.

[00:19:37]>> Yep.

[00:19:38]>> Um, >> who's the shortest prime minister? Liz Trust must be there or thereabouts.

[00:19:44]>> What a good question.

[00:19:45]>> I think Thatcher was pretty short, wasn't she?

[00:19:47]>> Was she?

[00:19:47]>> Come on, guys. You can't just pick the women.

[00:19:49]>> We're just saying the women, are you?

[00:19:50]>> Women on average are shorter than men.

[00:19:52]>> On average, they are. I know.

[00:19:53]>> I was surprised that Helen Mirren's 5'4.

[00:19:55]Yeah, >> that has taken me by surprise.

[00:19:57]>> Yes. Yes, it's a good that's a good fact.

[00:19:59]>> Um, but prime ministers, uh, >> shortest PM I feel like Draeli would have been quite dimminionative. Um, it'll probably be one of the 18th century people who hasn't fed well enough as a child.

[00:20:10]>> William Pit the shorter. It was Pit the shorter. Yeah.

[00:20:12]>> Yes.

[00:20:13]>> I want to say Churchill, but I think that's just cuz he looks like a baby.

[00:20:16]So, I'm I'm >> Yeah, you're projecting projecting his height.

[00:20:20]>> Anyway, um, >> is this what the podcast has become? You guys just speculate about something no one knows the answer to? be quite boring.

[00:20:25]>> It's more like a shitty quiz show now.

[00:20:26]Yeah. Um Madison, James Madison.

[00:20:29]>> Yeah. He's a big deal. Uh one of the early ones, so like one of the founding fathers, uh friends with all the big guys that you've heard of, but probably of those first four or five, the least famous, I would say, maybe John Adams a little bit, but you think so.

[00:20:43]>> Uh he was president during the War of 1812 when the British burned down the uh White House and he was the one who had to leg it with Dolly, in fact.

[00:20:51]>> Yeah.

[00:20:51]>> Yes. Uh, and there's a story that Dolly grabbed the portrait of um George Washington before they left because she was so patriotic. She was like, "We definitely need to keep this. Forget about all the cutlery and stuff. I'm going to take this." But I think it's it's not exactly a myth, but it's an exaggeration.

[00:21:08]>> Well, she she certainly said it. Um, so she claimed it. And we should say when we say she grabbed it, there's no claim that she grabbed it. As with all these things in that age, she stood by ordering people who were enslaved to her to grab it. But yeah, she got she got some people to take the portrait off the wall, she claims, and roll it up.

[00:21:27]>> 15-year-old Paul Jennings, who was born into slavery, but he's a very interesting guy. He so he and two other servants helped to pull this portrait off the wall and and haul it out. He later on, I think he gained his freedom.

[00:21:40]He planned the largest ever mass escape from Washington DC uh in history in 1848 of those who were still slaves and he wrote the first White House memoir ever.

[00:21:51]>> Did he?

[00:21:51]>> It was called A Colored Man's Reminiscences of James Madison.

[00:21:54]>> So he was a big deal.

[00:21:56]>> Yeah.

[00:21:56]>> Yeah. A fascinating life. And because this had happened at the age of 15, you know, and he lived, I think, to a ripe old age.

[00:22:02]>> Yeah. Right. Wow.

[00:22:03]>> Madison was a great writer as well. So for example, George Washington gave an address to Congress April 30th, 1789. It was the first presidential inaugural address that was drafted by James Madison. There was a response from the House of Representatives to what he had said in this speech and that was written by James Madison. So James Madison wrote the reply to the speech that he wrote.

[00:22:26]The president wrote back to the reply and that was also written by James Madison. So he was playing as the writer. It's wild. Karmama wishes this is how politics was still done and Kemmy I will now write your reply to me and I will write my response to that >> one biography reported he was a miserable public speaker who tended to lapse into inaudible mumbling he had very poor health and I don't think I think he was very impressive as an intellectual powerhouse but he was not physically imposing or you know a brilliant speaker or anything like that >> well thankfully America never got any more presidents who just mumbled incoherently >> yep fine um so he did of these health problems And he had these attacks in quote marks which were sort of similar to epilepsy but it's not certain whether you know cuz diagnosis from that from now to then is quite tricky but apparently he refused to travel to Europe in case he had an attack and fell into the sea.

[00:23:19]>> Okay.

[00:23:20]>> He was also really important in the Louisiana purchase.

[00:23:22]>> Oh yeah.

[00:23:23]>> Which I had not properly understood. I thought big deal. It's Louisiana. It's actually 15 modern states part of it.

[00:23:29]doubled the size of America and it was owned by um >> France. That's right. Yeah. He was really key in the purchase. Uh that was under a previous president, I think, but he was he was very instrumental in it and that blocked Spain and France from further colonization.

[00:23:43]>> Yeah.

[00:23:44]>> I think that was what King Charles made a joke about in his uh speech recently.

[00:23:48]>> He said, "You'd all be speaking French if it wasn't for us."

[00:23:50]>> Yeah. Yes. Right.

[00:23:52]>> And he made a joke about burning down the White House in 1812, didn't he? He made a lot of Madison centric jokes.

[00:23:57]>> Yes. Now I'm wondering if Madison might have written that speech at all. Yeah.

[00:24:02]>> Do not open till year 2026.

[00:24:05]Um, where would you guys say he sits in the the sort of list of influential presidents? Cuz it sounds like he kind of shaped the country, but it's not a name that I would say as a non-American that you would put up there as the the Rushmore, right?

[00:24:18]>> My only list of American presidents goes in chronological order. Yeah.

[00:24:22]>> So I have him fourth.

[00:24:25]>> That's pretty high. That's pretty good.

[00:24:27]But it's kind of like how your early birthdays are more significant than later ones. Like turning 12, turning 17, turning 24, that's a big deal.

[00:24:36]>> Yeah, sure. You learn to walk and you learn to speak and you learn to do all this between second and third birthdays, but just cuz it's all that stuff happens nice and early. So Madison, he did do the Constitution and he did do all of Washington's speeches and stuff, but yeah, there was lots of that stuff happening at >> cuz Washington was just crapping and sleeping all the time as a one-year-old.

[00:24:55]He once had his hat stolen and it meant that he couldn't leave the house for days.

[00:25:00]>> Uh why were you not allowed to leave the house without your hat?

[00:25:03]>> Well, you could, but it was a bit embarrassing socially, wasn't it? It was like leaving the house without your trousers. Um and this is an anecdote he told to a pal in his older age. So, I think he was dryly witty. He's a very understated president. There's not that much like flashy stuff about him, but I think he said funny things. And he once said to his friend in old age, "Did I ever tell you about the time my hat was stolen?" He said he I was staying in Williamsburg and my hat was stolen out of a window that I'd left it on. It was nabbed and I was about a mile uh from the palace that I had to go and visit people in. But I was kept from going there for two days by the impossibility of getting a hat of any kind. And he said at last I obtained one from a little Frenchman who sold snuff. Very coarse. Uh an extremely small crown.

[00:25:43]>> I believe the snuff was very coarse. I thought it necessary.

[00:25:46]>> The French wasn't saying [ __ ] up. It's my hat.

[00:25:51]But yeah, I like the idea. You lose your hat, then you're imprisoned.

[00:25:55]>> What a stupid place to leave your hat if that's the most important thing.

[00:25:58]>> On a window, sir.

[00:25:59]>> Yeah. On an open window.

[00:26:01]>> Glue it to your head.

[00:26:02]>> Back to Dolly for a second. Yes.

[00:26:05]>> She popularized ice cream >> in America. Did she?

[00:26:08]>> Yeah. She used to do these sort of parties on Wednesday nights where everyone was allowed to have ice creams.

[00:26:14]And the interesting thing about that because we mentioned another Africanamean self-made millionaire.

[00:26:21]>> The person who made her ice cream was someone called Augustus Jackson and he uh kind of came up with the idea of adding salt to the mixture which helps I think we said before that's kind of the best way to make ice cream because you add salt to it and it does an endothermic reaction which makes it cool down quicker. Uh but his that was his idea and then from being the White House ice cream person, he started some uh ice cream shops in Philadelphia and became one of the wealthiest men in Philadelphia because he was the ice cream maker to the president and then he did his own shops.

[00:26:56]>> Very cool.

[00:26:57]>> She was very interesting though, Dolly, cuz she she was born a Quaker.

[00:27:01]>> Mhm. and her father, who's called John Payne, had been kicked out of the Quakers uh because his starch business had failed. And apparently the Quakers are really like down on that sort of thing. You failed in your starch business. No, sorry, you're out.

[00:27:15]>> Really?

[00:27:16]>> I know. I'm surprised by that cuz they've got such a great rep.

[00:27:18]>> Yeah, but they're very into hardworking business people, aren't they?

[00:27:21]>> Ah, yes, that's a good point. Well, anyway, then she she had an early marriage uh and she was widowed >> and then I think Madison saw her in the street and said, "Who's that widow?" And uh >> how did he know? Was she wearing a big W?

[00:27:34]>> I don't know. I don't know. Um but >> and did you check that he didn't leave his hat next to his widow?

[00:27:41]>> Amazing. Um and then he intervened with Aaron Burr who was a friend of his Aaron Burr of of like co-star of Hamilton fame. Um and then but anyway, so she'd been widowed and then she and Madison get together and then they get married and then when they got married she was kicked out of the Quakers.

[00:27:56]>> So she and her father alike had both been kicked out of the Quakers but for different reasons. She get kicked out for marrying >> for marrying out out of the faith basically.

[00:28:04]>> Uh which Yeah. Yeah. Which she had done and they Yeah.

[00:28:07]>> She was um she was very popular, wasn't she? And her funeral, it's the largest funeral that Washington DC had ever seen at that point. Um yeah, she was a very big public figure. Congress adjourned and so did the Supreme Court and they all joined. President Zachary Taylor escorting the coffin and then she became a sort of merchandise uh item kind of if you imagine after her death kind of like how Diana you know you'd see her on plates and posters merchandise and ice cream.

[00:28:32]>> Yeah, exactly. She became a product.

[00:28:34]>> Is that a brand?

[00:28:35]>> Yeah, it was a brand that went until the 1980s I think.

[00:28:37]>> Wow.

[00:28:38]>> And it was spelled differently.

[00:28:39]>> Yeah, they spelled it wrong, didn't they?

[00:28:40]>> Everyone spelled it without an E until there was a New York Times article in like the 1950s. It was like Dolly Madison spelled with an E. Yeah, we should say we haven't said yet. Her name is spelled with an E.

[00:28:49]>> But I think that was implied by my story, wasn't it?

[00:28:51]>> No, it's true. But anyone listening will have probably been thinking Dolly like Parton all this time, you know. Um I think she was one of the very few women ever to be first lady for more than one president.

[00:29:02]>> Cuz when Madison became president, she had already been first lady de facto for Thomas Jefferson.

[00:29:08]>> As in like organizing his parties and stuff, tagging him, right?

[00:29:12]>> Yeah. I got no comment. definitely organizing parties.

[00:29:16]>> I'm not sure shagging the president is part of first lady duties certainly at the moment.

[00:29:23]>> God. Um but basically before before you know she was involved there like it was quite fraught relationships between the as it it was the Democrat Republicans wasn't it as one party and the federalists as the other and relations were very fraugh and they would easily turn to quarrels and violence and basically these mixes that she held enforced pleasant hanging out and basically allowed a more of a political culture to emerge that would not be based on violence. And then Madison became president later on and she she helped him throw his balls and that was very important.

[00:29:54]>> The phrase enforced pleasant hanging out is quite a wellian, isn't it?

[00:29:58]>> What do you think we're doing now?

[00:30:02]>> Well, Andy's parties are like I am enforcing some pleasant hanging out for 10 minutes. Get your barley water.

[00:30:10]>> Dolly was the first person to send a telegraph. the first normal person, not professional person whose job it was like Samuel Morse to invent the telegraph.

[00:30:18]>> Wow. Okay. Yeah. It was one of those really, really boring ones. Um, so Samuel Morse, who invented the telegraph, had laid a line of wire between Washington and Baltimore. And really tragically for President Tyler, who was the president at the time, Moore said, "Right, should we get the president to send the first telegraph?"

[00:30:35]And the whole crowd went, "Boo no, he's shit." Cuz they all hated him. And everyone said, "Get Dolly, Madison's widow. Everyone loves her. She's a laugh. So, she was called for and she was asked what she wanted to say and when you're put on the on the spot like that, you can't think of anything. So, she just said, "Okay, send it to my friend Mrs. Weathered who lives there saying Dolly Madison sends her love to Mrs. Weathered."

[00:30:58]>> Oh, that's all right.

[00:30:59]>> Yeah. And everyone was like, "Dolly, this is going to arrive in 15 minutes.

[00:31:02]You'll be able to reply." And actually, um, Mrs. Weather didn't get it for another six days because there was no means of getting the telegraph from the station to her house at the other end.

[00:31:10]And then she replied by letter saying, "I went to the station, but the the equipment had broken." And so they couldn't send a reply. So it took about 3 weeks to um transmit the message and get a response.

[00:31:21]>> Wow.

[00:31:22]>> Bit harsh on Tyler, I think, who in my list is probably the 10th president.

[00:31:30]>> Yeah. But back then that was the last.

[00:31:32]>> Yeah, that's true.

[00:31:33]>> Piggybacks are nothing to do with pigs.

[00:31:35]>> Is that true?

[00:31:36]>> So what are they? It comes from originally from pickpack which just meant carrying something on your back and then that became pickback and pick back dates from 1736. But um pigs don't do piggybacks of course. It's a silly it's a silly thing.

[00:31:52]>> If a pig looks like it's given another one a piggy back. They're probably having sex.

[00:31:55]>> Well, exactly. I'm not giving you a piggy back anymore.

[00:32:04]Okay, it is time for fact number three.

[00:32:07]That is Andy. My fact is that the world's oceans contain 38,000 billion tons of baking soda.

[00:32:18]>> What a thought. What a thought.

[00:32:20]>> Well, they're big, aren't they? Oceans, >> they're big. But 38,000 billion tons >> to me honestly that could be one part in a quintillion or it could be half of all the water. I just can't judge it.

[00:32:33]>> And is that are those in like deposits underneath the I'm so glad you asked.

[00:32:39]No. So this is um this is mostly in the form of dissolved bicarbonate. Okay. So the thing we're talking about now, get excited, guys, is sodium bicarbonate.

[00:32:48]And this uh I found in a report in the Guardian which is all about a new plan.

[00:32:52]Basically, it's an idea, a proposal to lock up carbon and carbon dioxide in the ocean by adding alkaline chemicals.

[00:33:00]Right? So, the ocean is becoming more acidic because of all the carbon that we're adding to the atmosphere. That's a problem. It leads to big problems for fish and it leads to big problems for all sorts of marine life. So, you could theoretically do a thing called ocean alkalinity enhancement. You add alkaline chemicals to the ocean that helps the ocean absorb more carbon. You know, slows down global warming.

[00:33:20]>> Can I just say we've said over the years so many times that these great ideas tend to sometimes [ __ ] up to a massive extent.

[00:33:28]>> Is there a chance that this might happen here?

[00:33:30]>> Always a chance. Um but there's been a recent experiment, a small scale one, uh called Loch Ness, which took place where? That's right, the Gulf of Maine.

[00:33:38]H you can imagine my disappointment when I discovered your factors about the locking ocean carbon in the northeast shelf and slope project. Sorry, >> but they they tried it. They released 65,000 L which is not a tiny amount of this alkaline chemical to see what happened and the alkalinity went back to pre-industrial levels in the area and it didn't harm any creatures that they've been able to tell. So, as you say, there is always a risk it'll be done wrong or that it can't be done at scale, but it's a it's a proposal. So, >> wait. Sorry, but can I ask about the 38,000 billion tons of baking soda in the oceans?

[00:34:11]>> Sure.

[00:34:12]>> What's that about?

[00:34:13]>> Well, that's just evidence that it already some of it's there or >> sounds like a lot of it is there.

[00:34:19]There's naturally occurring bicarbonates um and sodium ions which I guess together are bicarbonate of soda.

[00:34:24]>> Yeah. H3 so that's hydrogen, carbon and and a few oxygen molecules um is baking >> is baking without the soda.

[00:34:34]>> Yes. cuz then you need to add salt to make it to make it baking soda. But basically, this is the boring technical bit. When carbon dioxide dissolves into sea water, it forms carbonic acid and then that breaks down into hydrogen and bicarbonate. So, >> okay, a follow-up question. 38,000 billion. Y I'm sure there must be a numerical word for what that is without the billion, right?

[00:34:56]>> Pass over to my colleague with a math degree.

[00:34:58]>> 38 trillion.

[00:34:58]>> There we go.

[00:35:01]and every bit deserved. I say that master.

[00:35:05]>> Well, this is quite a problematic headline, isn't it?

[00:35:08]>> The numbers wrong.

[00:35:09]>> It's got nothing to do with the Loch Ness monster and it might [ __ ] up our oceans.

[00:35:12]>> I don't It's not going to any worse than they've already been. I promise that.

[00:35:16]Basically, this is about this stuff, baking soda, which I did not realize exists naturally in the world. I thought by carbon soda every mine it out of the ground.

[00:35:32]>> Yeah. It's just rock, isn't it? Really?

[00:35:34]>> Yeah. There are massive deposits in Wyoming and Colorado. There's Wyoming's Green River Basin contains 127 billion tons of this stuff called trrona.

[00:35:43]>> How is it not rising all the time whenever it gets hot?

[00:35:48]Do we know if the amount of bicarbonate of soda, which I think is fair to say is in the ocean because just in case there are real pedants out there, it does require sodium, but there are lots of sodium ions in the ocean as well.

[00:35:59]>> Yeah. It's not in the form.

[00:36:01]>> It's not like there's a pile of it at the base of the ocean. Exactly. I think this is this is the scientist who was talking about it saying this is how much you could get out of the ocean.

[00:36:08]>> Do we know if it's the right proportion of that compared to the ocean to make a giant cake? Like is it an ocean cake?

[00:36:14]>> What a good question. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:15]>> How much flour would we have to dump into the Atlantic?

[00:36:19]>> A lot.

[00:36:20]>> I live next door to a mill actually. I could see if they've got any.

[00:36:25]>> Um, and the other good thing about bicarbonate, which is in the ocean, is if it gets near any calcium, then it can turn into calcium carbonate, which is the shells of clams and muscles and crabs and stuff like that. So, that can get locked up inside the animals, which is a really good way of uh sequestering chemicals. This is how some things like oysters are sort of technically carbon negative. They just grow in the sea.

[00:36:50]They form this shell, which as long as you're not burning the shell, which most people don't do, then it's just the carbon is staying locked up in there, which I love. Wow, that is very interesting.

[00:36:58]>> By carb is cool stuff. Everyone's got it, but I didn't know anything about it.

[00:37:01]>> I've got some in my cupboard that when I first got married and started making cakes for my wife, I bought and have not opened it since. And what I learned is it goes off, right? I thought it probably didn't, but I think it stops working as well because um oxygen gets in and it joking natures >> it does. I've I've never started baking a cake without realizing that my barbar won't work because it's too off to be functional anymore. It's so annoying.

[00:37:24]>> Really?

[00:37:25]>> I go through it quite fast.

[00:37:27]>> Yeah.

[00:37:28]>> But it's I think it's crazy that it lasts 50 million years from when it formed under this lake in Wyoming and then once you get into your cupboard >> Yeah. It's like two years. Oh, sorry.

[00:37:38]That's done.

[00:37:38]>> Yeah. Baking soda though it's used in the medical industry as an injectable product. Uh it helps for people who are undergoing cardiac arrest, people who are having heart surgery, chemotherapy they often use it for. There's been huge problems because there's been shortages of it and it's so essential that they've had to put off surgeries or send patients to other hospitals because it's such an essential item.

[00:37:59]>> Is it that they get to the cabinet and say, "Oh, it's gone off. Oh, I should have done more surgeries with it." It's basically this have this it's basically this quality of it to make something alkaline, isn't it? So if you have acidification of your blood or um if you have been poisoned and your kidneys have stopped working so they can't um keep the blood pH good anymore, you just like eat a bunch of cake or have by carb injected into you. Yeah, you got by carb in your stomach all the time whether you've eaten some or not because the mucus lining of your stomach has got bicarbonate in it and that's what stops the acid from eating away at your stomach line.

[00:38:34]>> Oh, really?

[00:38:35]>> And yet when I leave it out of my cake recipe and just tell my guests, look, it's in your stomach already. So, can you just eat this completely flat dough and just let your stomach do it?

[00:38:44]>> It's actually B yo on the uh B Y O B where the B stands for bike. Brilliant.

[00:38:50]>> True baking powder. There was another thing called pearl ash, which was a kind of baking soda. But true baking powder was invented by someone we've come across before, a man called Alfred Bird.

[00:39:01]>> Uh, and Alfred Bird created Bird's custard powder.

[00:39:05]>> Yes.

[00:39:05]>> Because his wife was allergic to eggs.

[00:39:08]So, he thought, well, I'm going to make this powder that will make you custard, but you don't need the eggs in it. But his wife, who was called Lady Bird later, brilliant good.

[00:39:17]>> Um, she was also allergic to yeast. So, he developed baking powder because she couldn't put yeast in her bread. Then he gave it to troops in the Crimean War and they became huge.

[00:39:28]>> What a great husband, though.

[00:39:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> good guy. You don't get a lot of those around that time, you know. It's important to call them out when you do.

[00:39:35]>> Yeah. other businesses uh that are to do with baking powder that were interesting from the early days. 1891, William Wrigley started a soap company and as part of trying to shift the soap, he gave baking powder alongside it. It proved so popular that he then became a baking powder company because it was way more popular than the soap. So he thought, okay, how are we now going to get baking powder shifting? So he added two packs of gum that you would get along with the baking powder. And then everyone was like, this gum is amazing.

[00:40:04]And so that became the business and that's where it finally ended. Wrigley's uh gum as we know it is that that's the journey it made to get there. Yeah.

[00:40:13]>> That's great.

[00:40:13]>> Wow. Baking powder of course not the same as baking soda we should say. So baking powder is when you've added the acid to the alkaline and then you add the thing that stops them reacting with each other straight away. So you add like a buffer. So that's how they're different.

[00:40:26]>> Yes. If you add baking soda, you then need to add an acid in your recipe.

[00:40:29]Something like buttermilk or whatever.

[00:40:31]>> Here's something you can make with baking soda. Get your dried marof fat peas, put them in water, add baking soda, rinse them, and you get the northern delicacy, mushy peas.

[00:40:46]>> Oh, >> I didn't know mushy peas are made with baking soda.

[00:40:50]>> Uh, but the problem is apparently according to what I've read now, by adding that baking soda, it basically removes all of the vitamins.

[00:40:57]>> Okay.

[00:40:59]>> All of the goodness. Oh dear. Uh, and there was an American writer with the brilliant name Tabitha Tickletooth in 1860 who wrote, "Never under any circumstances, unless you wish entirely to destroy all flavor and reduce your peas to pulp, boil them with soda. This favorite atrocity of the English kitchen cannot be too strongly condemned."

[00:41:22]>> Wow, >> that's great. So, mushy peas is just a way of making peas really unhealthy.

[00:41:26]>> I'm afraid it appears that it might be.

[00:41:28]That's devastating cuz whenever I get fish and chips, I think, well, this is all this is all like batter and chips, but at least at least there's a small green pile of mushy peas.

[00:41:36]>> Wow.

[00:41:38]>> Wow.

[00:41:38]>> Tabitha tickle tooth.

[00:41:40]>> I know that sitcom.

[00:41:43]>> Um, it's used for everything though.

[00:41:46]>> Every problem you have that you Google, they recommend >> it's in some fireworks. It's a disinfectant. It can be a fire extinguisher. Um, it prevents sheep bloat. It's in mouthwash. It polishes silver, deodorizes furniture.

[00:42:00]>> It does feel like what is your luxury item to desert island disc.

[00:42:03]>> That's such a good show.

[00:42:04]>> It feels like that's what it should be.

[00:42:05]>> I've tried but all that cleaning [ __ ] they always say. Oh, baking soda and vinegar. You try it and then you think, "Oh, [ __ ] it. I'm getting some bleach."

[00:42:13]>> [ __ ] a new page.

[00:42:21]>> Okay, it is time for our final fact of the show, and that is my fact. My fact this week is that identical twins often don't know who is who when looking at photos of themselves.

[00:42:32]>> Crazy idiots.

[00:42:33]>> Fools. Um this was a paper. It actually won an Nobel Prize a few years ago. Um the paper was called, "Is that me or my twin? Lack of self-face recognition advantage in identical twins." So if you see someone that looks like me in a photo and you say, "Dan, this looks like you." And I say, "Nah, don't I don't think so." It's because I have such good self face recognition that I I'm so good at identifying myself.

[00:42:57]>> So whenever we get photos sent in the inbox of hot Dan >> Yeah.

[00:43:00]>> you always go it doesn't really look I see what they're saying cuz he's got glasses and stuff but it doesn't really look like me.

[00:43:06]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:43:07]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:08]>> Looks like someone more attractive.

[00:43:09]>> It looks like someone really hot. Yeah.

[00:43:11]We The hots have dropped off in the inbox recently. I know.

[00:43:14]>> Is this a new Is this hot Dan is a people spot hot out and about.

[00:43:20]>> Put a stop to that. Hot down. Not down.

[00:43:22]>> Hot down is not down. Hot down is not down. That's a t-shirt. Um, so what they what they wanted to know was if you're an identical twin, what happens there? Do you do you mistake your twin or do you have such great selface recognition that you can just instantly tell? So that was the point of the test. And so they got a group of twins to sit down and they were shown pictures uh of either them or their twin. And they had to make quick responses to tell. as part of a control group, they got a friend or a relative of someone close to the twins to make the decisions as well. And they discovered that yeah, identical twins aren't actually very good at identifying themselves. Um, they showed them a few permutations. You would see the photo the right way up then upside down. They were less good obviously when it was upside down, but they still weren't great when it was the right way up.

[00:44:09]>> I mean, they are identical. Let's not look like they're morons here.

[00:44:13]>> They're not identical.

[00:44:14]>> Well, they do look quite similar to each other usually, don't they? They do. But think of all the sets of twins that you know who are identical twins. They are all slightly different from each other, right?

[00:44:23]>> No, I don't. But to be fair, they were shown. You say they had to have quick responses. It was 0.0.3 seconds they had in the study.

[00:44:31]>> Considering like reaction time of a human is 0.0273.

[00:44:35]>> Yeah. So it's really a test to show that even if you barely see something, you instantly >> Have we not checked that maybe all twins have very poor reaction times? That could be what we're seeing.

[00:44:45]>> It could be. I actually slightly tested this because my mom is over from Australia. She's a twin and we had a birthday. So, her sister Rosie was over and uh we have a book that was done for them of a lot of photos of them as kids and and teenagers. So, I showed it to them upside down to see if they could guess and they were quite good actually at guessing. If your mom and your mom's identical twin sister had married identical twin brothers, >> then you genetically, understandably, if you work out how the math works, cuz identical twins are genetically identical to each other. Genetically, >> your cousins would be your siblings, right?

[00:45:19]>> Genetically. Yeah. Okay.

[00:45:20]>> Yeah. And there is an actual word for that. It's called quturnary twins. It's happened enough that people have got a word for it. There are about 300 cases in the world where identical twins marry identical twins and their kids are called quturnary siblings.

[00:45:34]>> Here is something wild which I don't think we've talked about.

[00:45:36]>> Okay.

[00:45:37]>> Some twins, >> yes, >> can have different fathers to each other.

[00:45:43]>> Uhhuh.

[00:45:44]>> We said this.

[00:45:45]>> This is a thing called hetropaternal supercondation. Okay.

[00:45:48]>> Catch it.

[00:45:49]>> Yeah. There are not many cases worldwide. There are fewer than 20 I think that have been recorded. and it's where a woman releases more than one egg. Um, she then will have more than one partner during her fertile window.

[00:46:04]Those two eggs are fertilized with sperm from two different men, but they are twins.

[00:46:10]>> Mhm. Cuz they are both implanted into the womb at the >> exact time. So, you could be you can have a twin who is also a half sibling.

[00:46:17]>> Yeah. You have to have shagged in a very short window. Uh, don't you? Because it's only about 48 hours that your eggs last. I left my wife in an open window.

[00:46:28]>> It was a very short window, but >> you need to do some careful diary planning, but yeah, it can happen. We talked recently about this idea of um siblings being born a very long time apart.

[00:46:39]>> Yeah, >> because of >> twin cup.

[00:46:41]>> Okay, you're jumping the gun on me. But yeah, because you can have embryos that stay frozen for a long time and then, you know, and then implanted many years later. And Anna, Andy has been trying to push quite a lot of cop dramas on us.

[00:46:54]And one of them is twin cops, but the twins are born 50 years apart. So, one of them's about to retire and the other one's a new rookie to the boss. Nice.

[00:47:02]>> But they're twins.

[00:47:03]>> Yeah, that's brilliant. I love it. I love it. Why aren't you guys millionaires from this already?

[00:47:09]>> I forgot there is a TV series starring David Mitchell called Ludwig where his twin brother has gone missing who was a cop.

[00:47:16]>> Oh, is that? and he has to pretend to be his cop twin brother to solve the mystery of where his twin has gone.

[00:47:21]>> Similar, but and actually there's the one with Mike Bubbins in where he gets frozen and then comes back and he's the same age as his daughter.

[00:47:29]>> Yes, that's very good. Mammoth.

[00:47:30]>> Yeah. So, the two if you put those two together, this is how we're going to sell it to the commission.

[00:47:34]>> It's like a mix of Ludwig and Mammoth.

[00:47:36]Okay. Obvious commission now. But there are cases of twin cops, amazingly. Is it? Yeah. There's a there weirdly there are two sets of twin cops in Wales at the moment coppering.

[00:47:48]>> I don't find that that surprising actually at all.

[00:47:50]>> Identical or non identical?

[00:47:51]>> Uh, one is identical and I think one is non identical.

[00:47:54]>> Okay.

[00:47:54]>> Yeah. As in one pair is identical.

[00:47:57]>> Jack and Tom Herbert both became officers nine weeks apart in different forces. I think they're non identical.

[00:48:03]But Ellen and Lisa Jones, identical twins.

[00:48:05]>> But also like police families is a thing. I think like if members of your family are in the police, you're way more likely to become a police person.

[00:48:12]>> Jack and Tom's dad is a police officer.

[00:48:14]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool though. We've got twin cops. So that's >> that's another for the [ __ ] document.

[00:48:21]>> Yeah. Because I can already imagine when the sitcom gets made that you can have in the sun it will be we're the real life twin cups.

[00:48:28]>> Lovely.

[00:48:29]>> The PR campaign is already halfway there.

[00:48:32]Is it not cooler that we've got twin astronauts and that that I don't think we've mentioned the NASA twin study which must be the smallest sample size of any study. It's a sample size one that NASA did because Scott Kelly who went into space his brother Mark is his identical twin and weirdly both are astronauts even though for the study they didn't both need to be astronauts.

[00:48:53]In fact it would have been better if Mark wasn't one really because basically NASA wanted to study if other variables are the same i.e. If you're genetically identical and one of you goes to space and then comes back, we can tell the effect that space has had on you. Um, >> but they both went.

[00:49:08]>> No, one went.

[00:49:10]>> No. So, so Scott went, Mark didn't. They must have had to draw straws.

[00:49:12]>> And they're both astronauts.

[00:49:14]>> Well, so Ann was saying it was pointless that one of them did all the training to become an astronaut.

[00:49:19]>> You can be an astronaut and not go into space.

[00:49:21]>> Well, can you >> You're kind of You're usually on the waiting list.

[00:49:25]>> Okay.

[00:49:26]>> Technically a teranort, I guess. Yeah.

[00:49:28]Yeah. Do you think as soon as you come back to Earth, you stop being an astronaut again? Someone says, "What do you do?" You just say, "Uneemployed >> that." Yeah, cuz they would have been identical like what >> astronaut.

[00:49:38]>> There we go. There we go.

[00:49:40]>> That's good. Yeah. Lovely.

[00:49:42]>> But yeah, that would have been a fight, right? To they'd have exactly the same skills basically.

[00:49:46]>> I think usually with NASA when you've got two people going for the job, they don't have a fight. It's usually >> WWF.

[00:49:53]>> Yeah, that's isn't it? I thought that's how they do it. That's the videos I've seen. If you are an astronaut and a twin though, presumably you're better at recognizing yourself upside down.

[00:50:01]>> Yeah, >> because you're floating about in space.

[00:50:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good.

[00:50:05]>> Didn't one of them become a big deal politician?

[00:50:07]>> Yeah.

[00:50:07]>> Yes, he did. The other the one who wasn't an astronaut according to you.

[00:50:12]>> Yeah, he did. Senator and his wife was a congressman who was almost killed in fact on assassination.

[00:50:16]>> Yes. Yeah. What did they find in the end? Did they find >> very little?

[00:50:20]>> Oh, he didn't like her alien DNA or anything.

[00:50:22]>> I think it was a bit of a PR stunt to be honest. I mean because they don't find stuff.

[00:50:28]>> No, they they barely found anything because basically they couldn't force the guy who was on Earth to live the same life as um Scott in the sky. Like for as they said, we couldn't force Mark to eat space food for a year and like sit on his own to get the control. Um so they found >> bad news, you're not going to space.

[00:50:45]Good news, you could do all the really annoying stuff that you'd have to do if you were in space. Poo in this bag.

[00:50:54]Yay.

[00:50:57]>> Felt like his eyeball shape changed a bit. A little bit of cognitive decline, but they do conclude that it all recovers after 6 months and he was back to the same level as his >> telomeres was interesting. The telomeres. The telomeirs. So those are the protective ends of chromosomes and they think they shorten as our life goes on and that means that we can get certain diseases as we get older.

[00:51:15]>> I think they do shorten, don't they?

[00:51:16]>> Yeah, they shorten and they think it leads to a higher likelihood of getting a disease like cancer and so on. Um, when Scott was in space, his telomeres grew. So, space might be an interesting place for us to have longer lives.

[00:51:30]Here's the thing. Twins are more likely to survive into the 60s, according to a study by David Sher and James Anderson. Why would that be? They looked at the lives of Danish twins born between 1870 and 1900. So, a lot big old sample size.

[00:51:49]>> Okay. Um, you've got someone to be a donor if you need a a donation.

[00:51:55]>> This was Did you say this is 186?

[00:51:56]>> I'm afraid so. So, not so much donating going on.

[00:51:59]>> You've just got someone next to you the whole time making sure you do sensible things. Eat right. You know, you tell each other stuff. You know, you share knowledge.

[00:52:06]>> Hey, stop at the start of that sentence before you get it completely wrong because young people die through doing silly things. But there is a thing called the twin protective effect which basically means that if you're a twin you're less likely to die from unexpected causes like accidents and stuff like that. We're not sure exactly why, but it might be because you got someone closer to you talking you out of it even maybe or >> you don't want to be so crazy because you've got a person who relies on you a little bit.

[00:52:34]>> Oh yeah, >> that's lovely.

[00:52:35]>> Very cool.

[00:52:36]>> There's a Twinsburg, Ohio has a twin festival every year. It was founded by a pair of twins. Oh, yeah. And as part of the twin festival, every year there's a lookalike contest.

[00:52:45]>> Oh, that's great.

[00:52:46]>> You have to look like the other twin or you have to look like a celebrity.

[00:52:49]>> I think I think it's the former.

[00:52:52]>> There used to be a twins restaurant in America which was run Yeah. by identical sisters, Lisa Gance and Debbie Gance.

[00:52:59]And then >> I asked you for the bill. No, you didn't.

[00:53:03]>> It kind of is that cuz the restaurant it's staffed by 37 sets of identical twins when it ran. um who work the same shift in the same station in the same uniform. So it opened in 1994 and this is from them their words we get 10 to 20 sets of multiple customers each evening for for dinner ranging from newborns sexuplets to 95 year olds and when multiples come in they sign a twin guest book. We put their picture up on a wall.

[00:53:27]They get two drinks for the price of one. Triplets get three for one and so on.

[00:53:31]>> Four twins to eat at and staffed by twins.

[00:53:34]>> Yeah.

[00:53:34]>> Lovely.

[00:53:35]>> Yeah. And these these these sisters Why cut down your clientele by about 97% >> and then give them all two for the price of one? How long did this business last?

[00:53:46]>> It's not running anymore. But but they were these these twin sisters were big.

[00:53:51]They created a casting firm. So movies who needed twins, they would go to these sisters. They became the twin people uh of America for a very long time.

[00:54:00]>> Oh, really?

[00:54:01]>> Yeah. Very cool.

[00:54:02]>> Very cool. Alexander Graham Bell was interested in twins.

[00:54:06]>> Um, specifically sheep twins.

[00:54:09]>> Uh, and he put $250,000 of his own money and much of the last 30 years of his life in trying to make more sheep give birth to twins. Cuz what he thought was he saw that lots of animals like, you know, kittens and puppies are born in like five, six, seven puppies, for instance, from one dog.

[00:54:28]>> Uh, but sheep were usually they would only have one or two. And so he thought, well, what if we could make sheep have more children? Obviously, loads more money for farmers. And he noticed that sheep that had more than two nipples produce more twins. So he went around the country trying to find as many multi-nippled sheep as he could.

[00:54:49]And then he started selectively breeding them. And the idea was he would get a breed of sheep that gave birth to way more twins. So when you say twins, do you mean he want like was it like even more than two he wanted to get or was it just >> Well, two was his first aim, but he thought that maybe he'd be able to get multiple bursts if he just kept finding more and more nipples on sheep.

[00:55:05]>> It's a fant it's a fantastic excuse when you're discovered by the farmer face up under one of his sheep. I'm actually a very eminent scientist.

[00:55:16]Three, four, five.

[00:55:25]>> Okay, that is it. That is all of our facts. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:55:28]If you'd like to get in contact with any of us about the things that we have said on this podcast, we can be found online on our various social media accounts.

[00:55:35]I'm on Shriberland on Instagram, James.

[00:55:38]>> My Instagram is no such thing as James Harkin.

[00:55:40]>> Andy, Andrew Hunter M.

[00:55:41]>> Yeah. If you want to get to us as a group online, Anna, >> we're on Instagram on no such thing or you can email podcastqi.com.

[00:55:47]>> Yes, remember that email [email protected].

[00:55:50]It has become essential to our podcasting life because if you send an email there with some feedback, Andy will cherrypick the best of those bits and bring it to Drop Us a Line, our secret show that exists in a private members club called Clubfish. It's on patreon.com/clubfish.

[00:56:06]you will see there are multiple bonus extras there, including drop us a line, but we do online quizzes and you'll get Excel versions of our show. There's merch. It's great. Check it out. Uh, but also use podcasti.com to send us in your favorite facts because every Monday we will be reading out your facts as part of our new show, Little Fish. So, do that now. Otherwise, just come back next week cuz we're going to be back with another show and we'll see you then.

[00:56:30]Goodbye.