Cockpit Casual: The Podcast (EP12)

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]If anybody wants to find uh Dr. Powell on on the internet, uh the best place I think is Instagram, the aviation therapist.

[00:00:09]>> The aviation therapist or the aviation the rapist. It's actually the same spelling.

[00:00:18]>> What What have you been reading?

[00:00:21]>> The aviation the rapist.

[00:00:25]t h e >> I guess you just see what you want to see when you're looking at you know >> you should talk to Dr. Pal about this.

[00:00:33]>> I probably should.

[00:00:37]>> I might have to cut that whole part.

[00:00:39]>> You might.

[00:00:52]I'm Steve Jordano. I'm Bob Allen. And this is Cockpit Casual the podcast.

[00:00:57]>> And we are up to episode 12, which >> we said last week, too. Or last time we said it was 12, but it >> it wasn't.

[00:01:06]>> We're avoiding 13.

[00:01:08]>> I guess we're Yeah, I guess we're avoiding 13. This is a true episode 12.

[00:01:12]I went back and reumbered the last one properly. Um, it's been a little while.

[00:01:17]It's been a lot has happened in the last like two weeks. We we did record the the Spirit podcast and then I went gang busters and making the uh the Spirit video which dropped uh last Thursday. A week ago. Wait, was that No, was that a week?

[00:01:34]>> Yeah, I think it was a week ago. Was it a week?

[00:01:35]>> Two weeks ago.

[00:01:36]>> Was it two weeks?

[00:01:37]>> I don't know.

[00:01:38]>> Man, I don't know. I've lost all track of time after after all this spirit stuff. I mean, it was overwhelming >> weeks ago. It was two weeks ago. I dropped the video. We did nothing last week. I was on vacation. That's why.

[00:01:53]>> Oh, that's right. That's right. You were on vacation. Um, but the uh good news is I think uh you're well over a million views on on that >> episode. Yeah. I So, to put it in perspective, no cockpit casual video that I've ever uploaded has ever hit a million. Um, even after years and years.

[00:02:13]Some of them are at like 500 600,000.

[00:02:16]Um, never had one hit a million and this one hit a million in 8 days.

[00:02:22]>> Wow.

[00:02:23]>> So, yeah, just a just an incredible response. Um, yeah, video was good. I think it was timely, you know.

[00:02:31]>> It was timely, but it was very very emotional. I mean, there were so many comments of >> Yeah. all kinds of people saying I mean there you know there it was it was tough to not have uh tears in your eyes you know watching the last part of that.

[00:02:47]>> Yeah I mean I had my I had tears in my eyes when I was I mean I wasn't BSing. I mean I legit I legit felt that way when I was editing that last sequence. Kind of a funny story how that whole last um that song came about.

[00:03:00]>> Um and there's also apparently maybe a little scandal people saying that it's AI AI music. No, I think probably it AI was used in creating it. I don't think she has like an instrument. Who cares?

[00:03:12]She wrote it. It was great, >> dude. AI is used in everything now. Come on. I mean, in some form or another, there's AI going on in the background.

[00:03:21]>> So, here's the story how that came to be. So, um, first of all, that video was I, so when I make a cockpit casual, it takes at least like a month, like usually like two months for me to make. And a lot of that is because I don't work on it every day. I mean, I have the regular work, like the day job to to kind of think about. Um, I mean, you know, I from morning, you know how it works for us. I mean, I wake up in the morning with 20 emails to field and then by noon I finally am finished with that and then we jump on an ops call and um you know and then I have like another 20 tasks before I know it it's 5:00 p.m. and like you know I mean the day just gets away from me every day. So, I I normally I do my video editing at night. Um, you know, kind of after dinner, a couple nights a week, I'll and I'll end up sitting here in front of my computer till like 2 3:00 in the morning editing sometimes. I'm a night owl as is.

[00:04:22]>> Yeah.

[00:04:22]>> Um, by the way, I'm a bit congested, so I apologize for my my voice. Allergies are killing me here this week. and and it's uh it's fairly late your time right now doing this podcast which which is normal for us as well.

[00:04:36]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's 11 11 o'clock on on Thursday. Like nothing like waiting till the last second then. But anyway, my my process in in making these cockpit casuals it takes time. I mean I you know the post-p production itself takes me about a week and a half to two weeks to do. but like actually assembling it, narrating it, kind of coming up with a theme, like writing it, um, you know, sequencing it together, the clips and like the effects and graphics and like it takes a long time. And to put it in perspective, this video um, I filmed the last, I don't know, set of clips on on that Monday. I started editing that Monday night and I released it on Thursday.

[00:05:23]So, I mean, I was up late Monday night.

[00:05:26]I worked on it all day Tuesday, all basically into the night Tuesday. I slept like four hours. I worked on it all day Wednesday. Uh, into the night Wednesday and then Thursday all day was post-production. And I got to about 8:00 in the morning on I I woke up early. It was about 8 9:00 in the morning on Thursday. It was the day I was going to release it. And I noticed a message on my phone that had come through and it was one of the pilots that that flew the last uh Atlantic City trip out um had messaged me and said, "Hey, check out this song. I don't know if you can use it in the video, but it would be cool if you could because this was written and performed by a Spirit employee. Um it was called Yellow Bird." you know, obviously themed >> the theme was the airline and the demise of the airline and so forth.

[00:06:16]>> And I listen to it, I'm like, "Holy moly, this thing is freaking good."

[00:06:19]Like, this is great. And so immediately I texted her back and I said, "Look, I mean, the video is almost done, but I let me see if I can try to figure out how I'm going to squeeze it in. Can you get me in touch with with this person that that wrote it so I can secure the rights to it, you know, and explain who we are?" Yeah.

[00:06:37]>> So, she jumped into action. Within an hour, I had a phone number. I called um you know, I I I called the artist and and we spoke for a while and um you know, she was just like, "Yeah, you know, I was coming back from a meeting uh at headquarters. I think she I don't think she was a flight attendant. She might have been at one point. I think she worked in the office there."

[00:06:58]>> Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. Yeah, cuz Yeah, it was going around that she was a flight attendant, but yeah, she was saw on LinkedIn or something. her LinkedIn bio was Yeah.

[00:07:07]something like Yeah. something internal.

[00:07:09]>> Yeah. Nicole Nicole Dunk is her name. Um and and anyway, I mean, I was just like, "Man, this thing is great. Can I use it?" I'm trying to explain what I'm doing. I'm like, "Hey, yeah, we're like the ferry pilots that that repo all the airplanes, but I have a YouTube channel." And I mean, it's kind it's kind of hard to explain, you know, if someone who's never heard it before and isn't really like a true AVgeeek. Um and anyway, she was like, "All right, yeah, sounds good. Yeah, feel free. I'll grant you the rights to use it. Um and and and she, you know, went on to tell me that music's not even her main thing. She's a writer. She's written books.

[00:07:47]>> Oh, wow.

[00:07:47]>> She's just a just a really cool human being. We spoke for a while. She's very >> just um just just brilliant, I guess. I mean, like coming up with all this stuff and publishing books and my god. So, anyway, I was impressed.

[00:08:03]>> Yeah. It it is interesting. That's I'm glad you explained that because I've had several people ask me. They're like, "How how did Steve like find find this person that wrote this song and you know, all this stuff in this short amount of time?" And I'm like, >> "Well, that's the craziest part. That's the craziest part. The the entire video was already like I had already finished all the sound. I had already finished all the color. Like that's another I mean, the color alone takes me hours to scale the color throughout all the videos. I shoot everything in slog format. So, it's like this real like flat gray picture because it has a huge dynamic range. So, it doesn't look good visually. Like the raw footage looks terrible. Um, and you have to color it and scale the color yourself so that it's kind of consistent throughout the video. But the thing about shooting an SLOG like that, I mean, I'm not a professional videographer or cinematographer, right? I mean, I've kind of learned this from a combination of AI tutorials and watching YouTube videos and talking to friends that are in the production space. But anyway, like color grading, it's probably my weakest thing I'm weakest at and I'm trying to get better at it. But anyway, >> just do it automatically.

[00:09:15]>> No, I mean there's probably a way, but no, not in Premiere. I mean, you got to manually do it.

[00:09:20]>> Wow. I had no idea.

[00:09:21]>> Yeah. I mean, every clip, right? And then you can save. And the thing about, I know I'm digressing here. The thing about our videos is sometimes it's daylight, sometimes you're in the cockpit, it's dark, it's bright, it's bright, it's dark. Like that color grading is extremely complex. It's not like I'm filming on sets, right? Like it's not like a controlled environment.

[00:09:41]So, there are all these environmental factors and sometimes the footage just, you know, sometimes I'm I'm using like like the wrong ISO format or >> like an like I'm not in like the right not like a native ISO to the camera. So, like sometimes in the dark like you get speckles. So, I've had to like adapt and and download all these plugins and learn how to use all these plugins for, you know, not only color grading, but like the pictures, the the picture itself and eliminating noise in the pictures.

[00:10:09]There's a lot to it. I mean, it's not just stringing together clips, you know.

[00:10:13]Uh, in the beginning it was cuz I was shooting everything in like auto, >> but then I was having massive problems with it would be too dark and like, you know, and then you you brighten it, but like then the contrast is too much and I mean there's it is an art to like color grade footage and like the professionals that do this all the time, they really know what they're doing. Like somebody like me >> figure it out.

[00:10:36]>> You know a whole lot about it. I mean, I've had to learn to I'm like, "What in the hell are you talking about?"

[00:10:42]>> I know.

[00:10:43]>> But I do appreciate that you make my make my color look so good. I >> If only I could do something about my color. I mean, I was down in St. Lucia last week. I was tan. I've already lost it.

[00:10:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. I thought you got sunburned.

[00:10:58]>> Yeah. No, I I was. So, anyway, like I said, post was done, color was done, sound was done, sequencing was done. I was literally editing like adding in like the cockpit casual graphics. I was starting to put together all the audio credits. I mean, I was done. And then I'm like, shoot, I got to get this thing in there. So, I I I stuck this the tune in there and and I you know, the actual video ended at the after that takeoff at that point. So, I extended I basically generated like a music video kind of thing at the end, right?

[00:11:31]>> Yeah.

[00:11:31]>> I don't know how that was going to turn out. I just wanted to get the whole song in there. So, I did that >> and that turned out awesome.

[00:11:36]>> It did. I mean, that that's what people keep going on and about on and on on about the end of that video.

[00:11:43]>> Yeah, that took me an hour.

[00:11:45]>> Wow.

[00:11:46]>> And I already I mean, I'd already used a lot of the clips, so I already had the colors graded. I had to go >> I mean, you can once you have like footage graded, if I go back and use clips that were shot in the same >> light and and you know, environment, I can just copy and paste >> like those features onto it. so that I don't have to like regrade each clip.

[00:12:05]>> So that made it easier. But I mean the wild thing is that like that that whole ending, >> you know, that final tune from like the last song on it took me an hour. It was the best part.

[00:12:20]Well, now that we know that you can do such great work and that you know people say this was the your best work of everything that you've done, now that we know that you did it in two or three days, we're going to expect this like in the future, you know, just start pumping this stuff out, man.

[00:12:36]>> Here's the thing. I mean, I love editing the videos. Like, that's the process of making cockpit casual. Look, I'm not making I'm not getting rich from it. I mean, I'm not making much money on it at all. video like with ad rev on YouTube, I might make five grand over the course of like a month or two. I mean, come on.

[00:12:54]I put hundreds of hours into it, right?

[00:12:57]So, I mean, it's not And not to mention, I you know, the I'm always buying camera stuff.

[00:13:02]>> I mean, I buy one lens and that's like an entire video's revenue, right? And I've got a lot of lenses. So, >> it's, you know, it's a labor of love. I do it because I love doing it and I like, you know, I like sharing this art with the public and you know I love the positive comments and even the negative ones sometimes that make me laugh. But you know I I I think um doing it at the pace and that I did that last one it sucked the fun out of it and and I needed that vacation once we released it.

[00:13:39]>> I sat there and stared at the ocean for four days with with my wife. I mean, it nearly and you know, I lost. I mean, there's another that's the other reason I did we didn't do a pod last week. I mean, I was just I was still spent. I'm still spent.

[00:13:57]>> I'm still spent from it.

[00:13:58]>> I I agree. We're we're both still recovering from that. But uh just just to go back to the pod to the uh to the cockpit casual, >> you know, there was just an overwhelming amount of of great comments. And a lot of those comments were like, you know, this is this is great, Bob and Steve.

[00:14:20]And I just want to say I have nothing to do with putting any of the cockpit casual episodes together. I'm the star.

[00:14:29]>> I'm just a guy. Yeah. I'm I'm just an actor, man. Just I'm just the guy that shows up and Steve tells me what to do.

[00:14:37]And uh and it's it's it really is. I mean, I give all credit to Steve on on, you know, the production, the editing, um the the the the entire thing there.

[00:14:50]And you do a great job. And I know people really appreciate that you do, you know, take the time uh to put these out.

[00:14:58]>> Thanks, man. I appreciate that. And look, I there were I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to find some of the some of the comments here to talk about, but I I should have done that in advance. I I have not. Um look, they they were overwhelmingly positive. There were I think 3,000 or more comments on there. And um there were some some hilarious negative ones that I just I mean I have to shake my head sometimes.

[00:15:24]>> I know. We Yeah, we we've got to pull some of those cuz I that's that is the entertaining part to me is are the negative comments through >> Oh my god.

[00:15:33]>> all of our social media.

[00:15:35]>> Man, I wish I had I wish I had prepared I wish I had prepared um I'd love to read some of the negative comments just aloud just that a level of hate um spewed towards us. I mean, I'm like, man, that that's what you got out of this, >> right? Exactly. and and you actually took the time to go on here and comment.

[00:15:55]That's what blows my mind. It's like, wow, you really took the time to do this.

[00:16:00]>> Yeah. You know, the I mean, one of them was like paragraphs long about how horrible we are. But, um, you know, that's fine. Whatever.

[00:16:10]>> Yeah. I mean, yeah.

[00:16:12]>> Engagement, man.

[00:16:13]>> Right. Exactly. Go ahead. Keep hating.

[00:16:15]Keep bringing it on. I love it.

[00:16:17]>> All right. Well, let's turn the page on this one. Um, I I would love to turn the page on the entire spirit saga completely. We will do that after this episode. Um, later in the episode, Bob, uh, why don't you talk about the interview that you did that I was not a part of. I had some other things going on earlier.

[00:16:35]>> Yeah. So, you were busy. So, I I've been wanting to do a uh a follow-up podcast with uh Dr. Abigail Powell who we had on um three or four episodes ago um talking about pilot mental health um aviation workers mental health I should say. Um, but uh, with our focus on pilots, um, with the spirit thing going on, I thought it was a great time to have her back and just talk about, you know, you know, loss of job, loss of, you know, identity, just the everything that goes along with you losing the airline that you work for and being out of work and how that affects, you know, the the the pilots, the flight attendants.

[00:17:25]everybody involved, including their families, and um and giving some advice on on how how to uh how to deal with that, how to deal with that. Well, >> and and if if not, you know, some resources on on finding the right resources to deal with it. So, so that interview is coming up uh with Dr. pal and uh and she's just I mean she's she's a great speaker.

[00:17:57]>> She's you know she's so articulate, explains things so well >> that you know the contrast of me speaking against her is is night and day.

[00:18:10]>> So I'm about halfway through editing it right now and um I you know I'm like man this is like Bob's personal therapy session >> recorded podcast therapy session. I I even said it a few times. I'm like, "Look, I'm not trying to go down into a therapy session here, but let's so let's cut that off and and continue with the Spirit Pilots."

[00:18:32]>> Yeah.

[00:18:32]>> Yeah.

[00:18:33]>> Yeah. No, no, it's good stuff. And I think it's it's it'll be it's a good listen for anybody who has, you know, lost their job um either in this process or um previously or may face it sometime down the future. There's some great advice on how to kind of deal with the the mental challenges that come with um loss in your life, loss of of a job, loss of your one's identity. I mean, that's that's originally, you know, in listening to it, the first thing that I immediately picked up on was that is the hardest part is it's like part like, you know, our identities are wrapped up in what we do every day as a career. Um, and as a pilot, it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean your piloting career is over, but that chapter ending um, you know, carries weight and and and it's a lot to deal with. So, anyway, it's a good um it's a great interview and it it will uh follow our little banter session here and then um, planning to just get back on track with the weekly pods um, going forward. I know it's been a crazy few weeks. Uh it's it's we have a lot of actual flying coming up too. So maybe we'll do one from the road. I don't know if we can you and I can get on a trip together. That would be fun.

[00:19:47]>> Yeah, we should. We might. Um yeah, that uh yeah, we have been getting busier thankfully.

[00:19:55]>> Yeah, >> you know, you know this all the spirit stuff that happened. Um you know, right after that, you know, a lot of other trips started popping up. I mean, I just moved to 737 this week, >> uh from Kansas City to Morirana. uh for >> Nigerian registered.

[00:20:10]>> Yeah, Nigerian. I had my Nigerian pilot's license ready to go. Validation, I should say. Um so yeah, we flew that.

[00:20:19]We're going to take that to Nigeria at some point. Um >> first of three, there's three of these X uh XS Southwest Airlines 737800s.

[00:20:28]>> Yeah. So uh you know, Morirana looks like a like an Easter egg hunt. There's yellow airplanes everywhere. And now I added this great big purple 737 to the mix.

[00:20:39]>> Colorful.

[00:20:40]>> Very, very colorful ramp down there.

[00:20:43]>> Yeah. Um I wonder if they're going to get painted before they head to Nigeria.

[00:20:47]>> I I don't know. I don't know if they're going to get painted in Tucson, Morirana, or if we're going to take it somewhere else to get painted.

[00:20:54]>> This is a really interesting project actually. I'm not going to disclose any information yet as to who the who the airline is. Um there's a couple of startups out there in Nigeria right now.

[00:21:05]And this particular one, it's not so much a startup. They're operating a different fleet type right now of like smaller kind of regional jet type aircraft. Um but they are making the jump to 737s and they're working very closely with with Boeing not only in acquiring um the first set of NGS but looking forward to potentially maxes um very very aggressive but organic growth plan very promising in Nigeria and a lot of the African countries the the airline startups are often plagued with corruption people you know almost like moneyaundering scheme teams. Uh this core, this group that we're working with is is the ex complete opposite of that.

[00:21:51]Um very knowledgeable, very professional. Um huge resumes. Uh I think it's going to be successful.

[00:21:59]>> Very organized, professional group of people we're dealing with.

[00:22:02]>> Very organized, very technically savvy.

[00:22:05]Um, so anyway, what is in the works is I I am, you know, as we're taking on this contract to deliver their first three Boeing aircraft. Um, I have been talking to them and the hope is that we can share uh their journey of onboarding a new fleet type, an entirely new category of aircraft really. I mean, it's still transport category, I guess, technically, but going from like RJ's to to big Boeings and the development of an airline in, you know, a developing country in Africa. I think it's a fascinating story. I think the people that we've met along the way so far have been very interesting. Um, and I would love to cover the delivery of of of these aircraft, uh, do some interviews on the ground with personnel there. So anyway, let's let's keep our fingers crossed that that they give they grant us permission to disclose who they are and a little bit of the process of them taking their first Boeings and you know, let's let's let's show our audience what it looks like um an airline really kind of coming of age uh in 2026.

[00:23:11]>> Yeah. And not only an airline, but actually a country, you know, a developing country that, you know, everybody says, "Oh, Africa, it's some backwards third world place." But uh you know a place like Nigeria is I think it's set to be the third most second or third most populous place in the world by 2050.

[00:23:31]>> Really?

[00:23:32]>> Yeah. And so you think about what that means in terms of of of aviation market.

[00:23:40]>> Yeah.

[00:23:40]>> Um you know it it it's uh it's mindboggling that that that's the where the direction that it's going. it I think it'll be like right behind India.

[00:23:51]>> Yeah. And and if you look at India and you look at you know some of these some of these developing nations um air travel's not been accessible to to the the huge majority of the population and and these these startup lower cost structured airlines um are are are changing that right like I mean just look at Air Asia Air Asia India Air Asia and Indonesia and Malaysia and like that whole region um really opening up uh air travel to an entire population that has never flown before. So, it's that that's essentially what's happening here and uh doing so with modern equipment and safety standards that are, you know, up to up to western standards uh and a knowledgeable team that that knows how to execute. I'm really excited to be a part of it, to see it unfold, and again really really hoping to have the opportunity to uh to shine the light on their operation as as we embark on this project. Uh as far as I know, the first three aircraft are going to be kind of targeting end of summer. They have lopa, you know, ce las, like the configuration of the seats and livery and all that stuff. That's all happening in the United States. and then the airplanes will will f over there. So, >> um you know, look for that this fall. I think that could be a really interesting opportunity to do a spirit-like video.

[00:25:24]Uh but but even more um even more >> from the other direction, the building of an airline.

[00:25:30]>> Building of an airline. Exactly.

[00:25:32]>> So, looking forward to doing that. Um let's see. Uh what else is going on, man? Like, so >> I I don't know. my kids like so my son just graduated from college that happened during the spirit fiasco.

[00:25:47]>> He starts day of >> he starts with an aircraft lesser in New York City uh in two weeks. Uh my son Tyler. So that's what I really wanted to do on the pod this week. We're going to have to wait till next week because we procrastinated too long. But um I want to have my my two my two uh youngest boys on Tyler and Ryan.

[00:26:08]That will be fun. That deserves an entire episode.

[00:26:11]>> It really does. I think they should just like hang with us for the the entire the entire thing.

[00:26:16]>> Yeah.

[00:26:17]>> But uh th those my two youngest boys are are pilots, aspiring pilots. Tyler just finished his instrument commercial. He has his multi-check ride, weather permitting, on um Saturday.

[00:26:30]>> Oh, wow.

[00:26:31]>> Yeah, that's great.

[00:26:32]>> Done. He's graduated. Uh he's got his associates degree um in aviation science um 141 program. He went through the whole 141 program. So I want to kind of get his takeaway about what now he's trained part 61 for his private under Pat >> and then you know everything else has been 141. So I'd love to hear >> his side of the story with that. Um and then my son Ryan my youngest turns 17 next week on Wednesday. this this week on Wednesday and his private pilot check ride scheduled for a couple weeks later.

[00:27:08]>> All right.

[00:27:09]>> Y >> very cool.

[00:27:11]>> So, he's doing his long cross country tomorrow morning.

[00:27:14]>> Oh, man.

[00:27:15]>> In a few hours. I gonna have to wake up.

[00:27:18]>> Wow. You got some exciting stuff coming up here very quickly.

[00:27:22]>> I know, man. So, we'll have to have them on. Maybe even have Aiden on, too. It's Let's have the the kids.

[00:27:28]>> Yeah.

[00:27:28]>> The kid pilots.

[00:27:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. the next generation.

[00:27:34]>> Oh god.

[00:27:35]>> But but Tyler Tyler and Ryan are also uh putting together something pretty interesting. I've been kind of helping guide it, but they've really been driving it. Um you know, a bunch of years ago when I had the Aerostar, I used to do a lot of those Pilots and Paws dog rescue flights. And um I mean it was a blast. I mean I of course I I'm a huge dog guy. Um, I loved picking up dogs, taking them out of these kill shelters and bringing them to fosters and rescues and, you know, final homes.

[00:28:04]Um, I did a bunch of them years back and I mean it was completely voluntary like volunteer, but it was an excuse to go fly the Aerostar and it was fun. Well, my kids went along on a couple of those and now that they're pilots, you know, Tyler now with an instrument rating, Ryan will be a private pilot, Tyler's commercial pilot, they are putting together an operation this summer where they're going to do some dog rescues and maybe even fund raise for gas money.

[00:28:31]>> So, that's that's that's the whole intent of having them on, talk about their experience, but also promote their little >> venture that they're starting this summer.

[00:28:40]>> That's a that's a great venture. I I can't wait to see how that turns out.

[00:28:44]Yeah, let's go see them raise some funds for that. And >> that'd be awesome.

[00:28:49]>> Gas money.

[00:28:50]>> Yeah, >> gas money for a good cause.

[00:28:52]>> Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:54]>> All right. Well, with So, with all that said, let's uh let's go to your interview uh with Dr. Powell um next week. Sons of Nomadic.

[00:29:05]>> Sons of N. Oh, God.

[00:29:08]>> That would be like a cool like motorcycle jacket. Sons of Nomadic.

[00:29:13]Maybe that should be their logo.

[00:29:15]>> Yeah, I'm sure they would love that.

[00:29:20]>> Be hot flying around in the Cherokee in the summer in a leather jacket.

[00:29:24]>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. We should We should make them do that, though.

[00:29:30]>> We should. Let's Let's I mean, we'll buy the jackets and they'll wear them.

[00:29:36]>> Yeah, I'm sure that will work out well.

[00:29:38]>> All right. Here's the interview with Bob and Dr. Abigail Powell talking about mental health.

[00:29:44]>> And and if anybody wants to find uh Dr. Powell on on the internet, uh the best place I think is Instagram, the aviation therapist.

[00:29:54]>> The aviation therapist or the aviation the rapist. It's actually the same spelling.

[00:30:03]>> What? What have you been reading? the aviation the rapist.

[00:30:10]T h e >> I guess you just see what you want to see when you're looking at you know >> you should talk to Dr. Pal about this.

[00:30:18]>> I probably should.

[00:30:22]I might have to cut that whole part.

[00:30:24]>> You might.

[00:30:28]All right, we'll see you guys next week.

[00:30:31]Adios, everybody.

[00:30:39]Dr. Powell, it's great to have you back again.

[00:30:42]>> Yeah, thank you for having me.

[00:30:43]>> Well, I wish it wasn't under uh these terms. We were always going to have you back again to continue the conversation that we had. It was such a great episode having you on and it's just we could have spent a lot more time. So, we said, God, you know, we're definitely going to have you back and here you are. But, uh, I thought it was important to have you back at this moment. You know, um, you've probably seen all of the, uh, uh, the Spirit Airlines stuff that Nomadic's been involved in and, uh, well, just the Spirit Airlines closure in general, you know, through through all of the press.

[00:31:20]>> Yeah. Well, thank you for inviting me. I know that it's a sensitive topic for so many. Um, while you know there's so many jobs that are lost, I really hope that the you know this episode is going to give some people hope.

[00:31:36]>> Well, that's that's why we're doing it.

[00:31:38]So, there's there's a lot to pack in here just on this one subject. Um, you know, I I I'm I feel close to this subject. I've been uh in that same position of airlines closing over the years. I think I've had four or five. I mean, I had so many I can't even remember them how many I've had throughout my career of of the doors closing like this. So, uh but it yeah, it's a very emotional experience. Uh very very difficult in a lot of ways. I think people outside of aviation maybe maybe look at that that situation as us, you know, they just lost a job, just go get another job. Um, but why why do you think it's like emotionally different for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, people that are part of, you know, an airline?

[00:32:30]>> Well, even growing up in the aviation industry, I had come to realize from an early age that aviation isn't just a job because really it's a lifestyle, an identity that is consistently building and often a lifelong dream. You know, you you talk to little kids who are going to aviation camps and such and all of them are saying that they they want to become a pilot, they want to fly, they want to uh they want to be involved in something because I mean when going on their first airplane ride, many of them remember that that feeling of kind of going up in the air and that feeling sticks with them. There's something in their brain that it just clicks and says this is right for me. And so people sacrifice years, money, so many relationships, and even their own stability in so many different aspects just to get there. So when it's lost, it's not really the income that they're thinking about. It's that meaning that they have, that structure, the belonging as well, because the aviation industry, the second that you step into it, it's like a whole new world opens up. All of that is disappearing at once.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah. So, you know, with with that identity tied to your career so closely related this, you know, in aviation, you know, I know especially with pilots, um, because, you know, I know I've been there, you know, so what happens, you know, psychologically when when that ident identity disappears >> for sure. So, it's that immediate question of who am I without this and almost that feeling of something being stripped. When your identity is tied to being a pilot, flight mechanic, even someone in airport operations, losing that role can feel like losing that sense of self that you have. It can cause disorientation, that loss of purpose and maybe even shame that kind of comes with it because now you have to go and face everybody that you had proudly told and insert job title here.

[00:34:32]>> Yeah. So what you know what what emotions you know do people in that situation typic typically feel you know I mean you you got shock you know obviously fear um maybe even embarrassment I mean you know people that lose their jobs sometimes feel embarrassed >> for sure. Well, a lot of the yes, the shock, the the this can't be real. If we want to talk about a classic grief cycle because this is this is grief. Um this this can't be real moment is 100% happening. That fear and you immediately go to what happens next. Immediately that fight or flight is going to kick in and you're saying who am I without this?

[00:35:15]And then very likely anger and frustration can follow. Maybe it's anger at um the company and the way that things were handled. Maybe it's anger at yourself for choosing this different role. But for many, that embarrassment and that shame often comes with it, even though it's completely outside of their control. So, in order to minimize this distress, because I'm sure so many people are sitting there maybe watching this going, "Yes, I'm feeling this, but what am I supposed to do about it?" Um, I also I I just want to mention that the aviation culture, it really pushes you to just kind of get through it. And so it's going to reward that resilience with it. So even though it rewards composure and problem solving under pressure, you're trained to override that emotion and to continuously compartmentalize. So that can translate into minimizing distress instead of processing it. So I I really encourage people to take that time to take that moment and say, "Okay, right now I feel like I'm in panic mode." Why? Because I have no idea what I am supposed to do next. Maybe I didn't have a backup plan.

[00:36:30]Maybe I I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment having to come home to a family. And so knowing that it's not just me that's impacted, there's a lot of extra pressure that is weighing weighing on me. So, I would encourage those people, take a moment, allow themselves to process instead of minimizing it. That distress you need to get through instead of compartmentalizing or it's all going to blow up in unhealthy ways, >> right? I mean, it's it's like losing a family member. It's like a death in a family when this happens and you go through this this mourning period. And you know, you not only are dealing with that mourning part of it, um, but but all of these other things that you just mentioned, you know, are are on top of that. You know, part of part of what we wanted to do in in this Spirit situation was, you know, give as many of those Spirit employees, the pilots in particular, um, you know, some, you know, a a way to have some amount of closure to like not just wake up and, you know, have the carpet pulled out from under you and say, you know, you're you no longer have a job or, you know, it's just all gone, but but a way to have, you know, to create some kind of fun finality in flying that last flight of that of that airplane to, you know, to to where they took it, which, you know, most people called it the graveyard. So, there was a lot of >> I did see that. I did see that. I was going, "Oh, wow. That that's either really morbid or, you know, I kind of respect it. Okay, give yourself that closure." And yeah, I'm sure so many people did have that closure and it almost kind of gave them a moment to feel a little bit of uh peace with it.

[00:38:22]For sure. Absolutely. And I definitely commend y'all for for stepping right into action because a lot of us when when faced with uncertainty, mind you, uncertainty is probably one of the hardest things for our brain to tolerate, especially because as pilots, you're used to feeling like you're in control or at least that illusion of control. You're used to planning. You're used to predictability. That's what you need and that's what you thrive on. So, when that's gone, that anxiety spikes.

[00:38:49]And then there's usually no timeline or clear timeline or outcome when it comes to this. So, y'all took what was in your control and said, "Okay, well, how can we maximize this? What resources do we have to at least give these employees a moment uh for themselves?" And also, it it gives them a great story. Sure. Yeah.

[00:39:12]It absolutely it is a a good, you know, way to, you know, talk about the end of of that period of your life that, you know, I was able to, you know, go fly these these last flights and kind of put the put that put spirit to bed, you know, of sorts. Um you know you you do talk about the anger part of it and you know um you know in in just a week's time we had a lot of a lot of time with with these spirit pilots and they were just a a great group of pilots. You know, you you talk about having a tribe and they were just just great people and they just had this great thing and you you could see what that loss was to them. But at the same time, I mean, I I was I was happy to be able to be a part of it in some way to to to help them through it and hopefully help them in the future for that matter. We made some, you know, really, really good friends in that short amount of time.

[00:40:14]But and I'm still in contact with them.

[00:40:16]But but is what I am seeing now is, you know, after a few weeks is this like kind of anger thing kind of coming to the surface.

[00:40:26]>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you're suddenly out of the job, you suddenly have a lot more time to think about things. And a lot of the time as pilots, especially because y'all enjoy the strategizing, you you may enjoy your mind kind of running at a million miles per hour. So now that you have nothing to think about when it comes to um flying, you're then going to okay, one, what's the next step? And two, what did I do wrong? And how could I have fixed this? with that anger. It's it's mainly I think rooted in that uncertainty.

[00:41:02]And so you're kind of maybe projecting onto um onto the airline because really it's like what can they do about it? But you need somewhere to put that anger. So we're going to throw it. We're going to throw it at the airline. We're going to throw it at maybe the media for the way that they um that they put it out there before before telling the employees.

[00:41:25]you're going to throw it at um sometimes projecting to your family and stuff. And so the families are going to feel the brunt of that as well. And so I think a lot of it is just a lot of that uncertainty, that loss of control. What we can do with that though is just notice it first. When we're calling something out, saying, "Okay, I'm really angry because I feel like I can't control this situation, a situation that I once felt very safe in." We almost kind of lose the power with that. When you say that you're angry about something, then we kind of notice that those words aren't nearly as scary. When you say, "Okay, well, I don't know where to turn next." The next solution to that answer is, "All right, we'll find a path." You don't know where to turn? All right, well, let's start looking.

[00:42:18]>> Right. So, you know, you you mentioned the families, the spouses, children, you know, what what ripple effects does all this have on on on these people's family?

[00:42:30]>> Yeah. Well, first off, I definitely want to give so much credit to the families.

[00:42:34]I mean, growing up in one, I didn't really understand how much of the brunt of it that my mom took to uh support my dad through his career. um and how many things that my dad had missed and um wishing that he had been there. So the families are definitely taking so much sacrifice um and so they're feeling this very deeply. The spouse is often absorbed that emotional and that financial stress as well. So what once felt very stable um is often now there's that questioning for them too. It's okay. Well, what steps can I take as a spouse to help um support support my my pilot now? And then the kids can often pick up on that tension. So, I mean, kids, they're very observant. Even just small small movements within the house, if somebody's not speaking like they typically would, kids often notice it.

[00:43:33]So, there can be a shift in roles and then that identity within the household as well. maybe a spouse goes back to work. Um that can add a whole other layer. Now, um now that we're recording this, summer's out for the majority of the country. And so now kids are around a lot more. And so pilots, flight attendants, just all those aviation professionals now that they're home a lot more, they are going to have a lot more pressure on them to be in that good mood. Um, and so what I would really encourage, um, there's studies that that show that gratitude, especially in times of uncertainty, when you're over here going, "Okay, well, what do I have to be grateful for? I just lost my job." But finding those small things to be grateful for because now with this loss of a job, yes, it does bring a lot of really negative feelings, but it also brings a moment of repair for the family. Now that summer's here, maybe that is a time to sit outside with your kids and to really watch them and see how they've grown. Not think about, oh, the time that I've lost with them, but I have this time now. If if we're spending all of our time focusing on what's next, then we're going to be missing out on what is right in front of us. And so being grateful for even just that small window that that has opened up, I would really encourage that. And I know that it's hard at this time.

[00:45:00]>> Yeah. But >> yeah, easier said than done, right?

[00:45:03]>> So much easier said than done. But even just like 5 minutes without the phone because I know that, you know, we're being blasted with this news of, okay, well, what's next for spirit? Look at all of these people um trying to save them. It's no stop just for five minutes.

[00:45:20]>> Yeah.

[00:45:20]>> But look at what look at what's around you. look at your community that you have and just allow your mind to be grateful for that.

[00:45:29]>> Yeah, that's that's great advice. And, you know, looking back on my own past, um you know, in those situations, I was full of anxiety, stress, and I couldn't enjoy, you know, the moment of having some time off. And and looking back, I realized everything was going to be okay. Everything turned out fine. And I had those moments then that that I wasted in in in stress that I could have just en enjoyed like a summer. Um yeah, it you know the the financial hardship and stress is is something that is definitely overwhelming in those situations though. So >> yeah, >> I I know what you're saying and I hope people actually listen and and uh put that to good use. But yeah, it's but I also understand how difficult it is, >> right? And fortunately, gratitude is free. You don't need to go and take a trip to find something that you're grateful for. You could honestly just be grateful for the clothes that you have on your back. You can be grateful for another day and another chance >> to find a new experience.

[00:46:45]>> Yeah. You know, a a story I I'll relate really quick was um Eastern Airlines. I was was 24 years old working for Eastern Airlines and they closed the doors. So, in that in uh in about a 3-month period of time, um my my father passed away, I got divorced, and now I lost like this dream job. And and I remember sitting in in my house that the furniture was now all gone. I'm in this empty house and I'm I'm I'm sitting there on the floor just like going my my my life is over.

[00:47:28]I've lost everything that I care about and there's there's no hope for the future.

[00:47:36]And I remember just sitting there sobbing and the my doorbell rang and I answered the door and it was a mailman and he's looking at me and he goes, "Is everything okay? Can you know can I help in any way?" I said, "No, you know, it it it it's fine, you know." And he says, "Well, you got to sign for this letter."

[00:47:59]So, he had a registered letter. I sign it and I open it up and it's a check for two cents.

[00:48:08]It's a check. It's my pension from Eastern Airlines.

[00:48:11]>> What a slap in the face. Oh my gosh.

[00:48:16]>> But the moment was was just so crazy to me that somebody had probably spent three or four dollars on a registered letter to send me a $2 a twocent check.

[00:48:27]The absurdity of that just it it it created this clarity that suddenly I realized that this is all so absurd and the reality of it is I I am completely free in life of I don't have to my identity is no longer attached to being this airline pilot that's that died my whatever psychological things a son has with his father in in terms of you know that I'm sure we could go into this and I don't want to turn it into my therapy session but but that was all gone. I'm this single guy and I I'm able to go do anything in the world that I now please. It was like this freeing moment and that was easy to do as a 24 year old person without a family and all of these financial stresses. I had nothing in life and didn't need anything at that point. But I I guess the the point of all of that is is there there there was this like defining moment because of of this, you know, airline failure and these these other things of my life that that turned into just a great pathway for me in life. And you know, I I I tell everybody that that you know, these failures happen, but the end result is always better than than what you had previously.

[00:50:04]It typically is because a lot of what you can do is take the lessons that you've learned throughout your time. So, a lot of times people see the uniform as that identity and so it's not that you've lost flying, it's not that you've lost aviation, but instead maybe we we take away parts of that of that uniform.

[00:50:24]Uh maybe we, you know, keep keep a sticker that kind of shows who we are.

[00:50:30]If you want to put a sticker on your water bottle, laptop case, something like something that helps you identify like this is what I've been through.

[00:50:36]There's so many people that will look at that and say, "Oh my gosh, I know what that means." And so, yes, it can feel really ridiculous when I say, "Oh, a sticker." People are like, "Okay, cool.

[00:50:47]Whatever." But it's it's the it's not the uniform. It's not the title. It's not the seat that you sit in.

[00:50:56]It's a symbolic of worth that competence that you have and that identity that you're carrying. Losing that often can feel like losing value as a person. It's like if I'm not if I'm not doing this, then what value do do I have? Even though that's not really true. What you're grieving is not just a job. It's that version of your life, your future trajectory that you thought that you had or that you thought that you were in.

[00:51:19]even sometimes that childhood dream that you thought that you had, but in reality it's actually another opportunity.

[00:51:27]And so, yes, again, easier said than done. I am not speaking as somebody who had just lost my my career trajectory, but I I want to definitely instill some hope that you can carry on those life lessons. You can work on different things that you want to improve on. And now now that you are in the job market if maybe there was something that you wanted to improve upon then or do differently then you can look at the different careers that you have. A lot of people when starting their pilot career will think okay the airlines basically it it's like airlines or cargo right or unless you want to do military but there's so many different ways that you can make an impact using your certificates using your experience so many different things that you can find purpose in. You could be saving lives as a pilot and really it's it's up to you.

[00:52:20]>> Exactly. And >> yeah, >> that's exactly what happened to me. I mean, it was like I I was able it gave me the freedom to not be attached to this like identity of what I always thought I was going to be. Um, and and truthfully looking back, I wasn't happy in that doing what I was doing. It was just, you know, that's that's what I always wanted to be. So, you know, I should be happy doing this. But the truth be known, I was not happy being an airline pilot. And uh it it set me free in so many different ways to to where I I was I could eventually become who who I was supposed to be. Well, I was thinking that, you know, um before before we even just started recording, like the opportunities that these people have now, even just scrolling through my my aviation therapist Instagram, it I constantly seeing even now, weeks after this has been um announced, people going, "Hey, Spirit Spirit employees, um we're doing a free resume building class." Hey Spirit employees, uh just an FYI, we have 500 spots open for you. We are now prioritizing your resume.

[00:53:43]>> So, not only is this a chance for you to have a new experience, but this is a chance for you to possibly move up. This is a chance for you to feel like you're in power.

[00:53:55]So, take it. Take that opportunity. Not asking for help is just your pride getting in the way because the aviation community wants to help. I've not seen one account that has not has not wanted to do something.

[00:54:10]>> Yeah. Absolutely. And so this this is a tremendous opportunity for for the younger pilots. I my perspective on this and my where my empathy really lies are the guys who are my age.

[00:54:24]>> Oh >> yeah.

[00:54:25]>> I'm almost 60. If I was in that position, 60 years old, and I just spent the last 20 some odd years at Spirit Airlines, it's and and the the thought of starting over at an airline, going to the bottom of the seniority list, the the lower pay, all of these things, um would be very depressing to me if I was in that position. And I would probably be looking elsewhere, but also thinking, well, what what else else elsewhere is there? I only know how to fly airplanes.

[00:55:00]What what what am I going to do at this age?

[00:55:05]And it, you know, from from that perspective, I I I don't think they're having the same positive outlook on new opportunities that that a younger pilot would.

[00:55:17]>> No, of course not. I mean that you're set in your ways. You enjoyed that. That that was comfort to you. But the older pilots especially, maybe the pilots that were going, hm, maybe I can retire at 62. Maybe I can retire um early.

[00:55:35]Typically, especially when you reach that big six number in front, you're already thinking about that. What do I want to do in my retirement?

[00:55:43]So, I'm not saying start retirement early, but know that there's so many other paths that you can take that don't that doesn't have a 65 year cut off.

[00:55:56]>> Exactly.

[00:55:57]>> So, >> exactly. There's the part the part 135, you know, you can you can go and you know, as long as your medical is >> is good, you know. I mean, yeah, there's lots of there is lots of opportunities regardless of what age you are. But I think it's important not to, you know, for people that age not to think of themselves as as as an airline pilot. I have to be this this person I was for the last, you know, 20, 30 years. Well, also when when you retire, you need to have purpose outside of your job. That's with any career, especially aviation, when there's so much purpose tied into it. There's so much identity tied into it. So, I would encourage you to start building those hobbies, building the things that you enjoy. Is there something that you find purpose in?

[00:56:45]There's so many people that have so many lessons that they've learned throughout their time in the aviation industry. Is this a time for mentorship? Is this a time to take that power back? I mean, for you, you you decided to start building uh something like Kittyhawk and you really wanted to bring in that that community. This is something that you can you can definitely um that so many pilots can take advantage of. Um that that sense of community, that sense of finding something because you know what?

[00:57:20]Some people do want those 60-year-old pilots. Some people want to say, "Hey, you have been around. You know how the aviation industry is changing. Help mentor these people." So instead of going back down in the seniority list, maybe you're not flying as many hours, but you are able to support that next generation.

[00:57:43]>> Yeah, that's a great way to give back.

[00:57:44]That's that's great advice there. And uh yeah, there's so many just great experienced pilots out there that that were at Spirit that yeah, I hope I hope that they are able to give back that that experience and and mentor some people. Um for the for the the people who don't accept it well, what what are some bad ways do do you think that pilots deal with deal with things? Yeah. So like the negative coping mechanisms.

[00:58:22]So usually I mean we've got whole programs for this but typically a lot of people will turn to alcohol. Um that usually it is it's kind of a step-by-step process.

[00:58:37]So it first starts out as avoidance. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to I don't want to even mention this because it makes me feel uncomfortable. It gives me negative emotions. So, of course, I don't want I don't even want to process this. Then there comes the isolation because why?

[00:58:54]You're getting random texts from people going, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry this happened." And you're like, "No, I'm a strong person. I don't want your pity. I don't want to, you know, start dwelling on this." So, then there comes to, okay, well, what can I cope with now? and it's substance use and then overidentifying with those worst case scenarios.

[00:59:15]Then I want to say while we are kind of in a substance loop, alcohol is a depressant and so it's going to keep our mind in a depressive state.

[00:59:29]Not only that, but it's going to impair our recovery as we sleep. And um very typically um certain types of alcohol, it can contain um ingredients that increase anxiety. So we're just going to be kind of st staying in a loop um along with not allowing ourselves to be productive, get our um I would say get our head on straight. So process exactly what happened. Um and then we're just going to start scrolling our phone while drinking because we are isolated. We need to feel like we are around people and so sitting on our phone is going to give us that pseudo feeling. Um and then we're going to start comparing oursel to others. And with that comparison starts the cognitive distortion. So the messed up thinking where we're going, I should be doing better. Those shoulds I think every single person has a cognitive distortion of the I should be doing this. Then you add on with the predictive thinking. Um, so, um, for a lot of people, especially the pilots with tens of thousands of hours, they're going, um, no one's going to want me.

[01:00:41]Like, no one's going to want me. I'm in my 50s. I'm in my 60s. Okay. Well, you're making that choice for them.

[01:00:47]>> Right?

[01:00:47]>> You are taking away their ability to say yes or no.

[01:00:51]>> It's only you that have said that to yourself.

[01:00:54]>> Nobody else has told you that.

[01:00:56]>> You are already rejecting yourself by your predictive thinking. But then you're saying, "I should have I should have gone with this airline instead.

[01:01:04]They're doing so much better." Well, that wasn't the opportunity that was presented to you at that moment.

[01:01:10]>> Yeah, I hear that a lot. The uh the regret of like I made a bad decision by going here when I should have gone x, y, or z. And uh that that is literally the the crapshoot of aviation careers right there. And it's been that way. I don't think I've heard one pilot that has not given me a sh I should have done this differently in my career. Whether it's a check ride failure, whether it is a uh a different route for time building, we're all going to pay our dues at some point in whatever career it is. It is really just a matter of when are we going to do it?

[01:01:51]>> Yeah. And and from the pilot perspective, it doesn't matter what happened in the past. What happens right now are the decisions that you make going forward, you know, and that's that's how you're, you know, taught to fly. If if they if the airplane ends up having an engine failure, it is what it is. And now you just deal with it and and plan for the for for a future better outcome.

[01:02:19]>> For sure. And I mean in that moment yes you have to compartmentalize what you are going through where maybe at first your brain goes oh shoot there's an engine failure and then the brain that you have been trained on where it's like wait we thrive on this wait I I know how to do this because this situation has been thrown on me. you know, when you're doing uh when you're doing your training, your consistent check rides, especially when in the airlines, they're going to make sure that they throw the worst of the worst at you. And so, you're like, "Wait a minute. I've dealt with worse in the sim. So, I know how to do this now, and I'm going to click it on. I'm going to turn on my logical side of my thinking uh in my brain, and I'm going to I'm going to hone in everything that I know." When it comes to this uncertainty, a lot of the time we need to stabilize before we strategize because immediately in the scenario that you threw out, you can easily strategize because you stabilized immediately like that. That's easy radical acceptance. Okay, this is the situation that I've been thrown.

[01:03:26]Awesome. Let's let's get it done. When it comes to this uncertainty, it's oh wait, I didn't have a checklist for this. Hold on a minute. We need to stabilize ourel. Especially within that first 30 days emotionally and mentally after we have lost this position in the airline. We need to focus on sleep. We need to focus on routine. We need to focus on connection especially with other humans. And we need to process what just happened before making any major life decisions. Or else we are going to end up making a very impulsive decision that's not going to support our family and the values that we have.

[01:04:02]Instead we're going to be making it in fight or flight. Yeah, that's a very good point. And the the the checklist part is is the one thing that was missing from what I said in terms of relating that to to a real life situation, you know, of losing your job and being in this position. It's in in in our airplane training, we we have very defined procedures and checklists to follow that that get us to that safe place >> when there's when there's adversity or whatever. But in in our lives, we we don't have that.

[01:04:44]>> We have we have that that failure that happens to us personally. And there's there's there's no guideline there. And I, you know, I think that's what what people are missing. But I also think that's where the the importance of community comes in because, you know, there's there's people like me. I've been through it. I I I I I know the playbook to this and and I'm happy to try to help, you know, people follow that same playbook >> and and get to the other side, but but you can't do that if if you go into this isolation mode, >> right? And I mean, connecting with our community, it's critical. Isolation amplifies distress, even though it feels comforting in in the moment. I think that last time we had chatted, I talked about the anxiety avoidance combination.

[01:05:36]The more we avoid, it may feel okay in that moment, but in reality, it's actually going to build our anxiety.

[01:05:43]Isolation is going to build that distress. Why? Because a week's going to go on and you're going to say, "Nope, I'm just going to ignore this problem."

[01:05:51]Just like avoiding. And then you come back into reality and you're going, "Wait a minute. All of my colleagues have taken advantage of this and I avoided the opportunity to have a resume builder. Uh you can process while still moving on to the next step. Those two things can be um can be there at once.

[01:06:12]Duality can exist. It actually exists in the majority of our life. So we can still grieve the person that we are while being excited about what's yet to come. So definitely no isolation because somebody knows somebody else. Somebody's second cousin at this major airline knows the chief pilot for XYZ. You know what? You're going to be best friends with them. Awesome. But connection normalizes that distress. Staying in touch with others in aviation makes somebody feel less alone and it makes you feel more grounded because they are going through the exact same thing or they know somebody who is and they can connect you with them.

[01:06:52]>> Right. And that's, you know, I I know I've talked to you about, you know, having having some uh resources on Kittyhawk for for just the things that we're talking about. And uh you know I I I wish I was further along with that right now, but it it just uh you know, all all of this conversation just uh is really motivating me to to to get that out there for for people to to to use those resources and and to to develop, you know, that community to have something there if they don't have it elsewhere.

[01:07:27]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's growing.

[01:07:30]It's not growing at the rate that you wanted to, but I'm on it now. And so I'm over here seeing that seeing that it's growing. I'm seeing that, you know, there are um there are jobs here and there that are posted. Who knows, maybe somebody's going to find it and maybe somebody's going to say, "Oh, maybe it's not that job, but it's a job like that that I want." And so it's going to be a path to lead them to that right position. And so, yeah, it's really great. I think that, you know, we want to be everything for everyone, but in reality, we can't. And so we're going to have to band together with our connections. So I'm sure if somebody who has flown with you is saying, "Hey, I need a change in lifestyle. I need a change in work life balance." Something like that. Then you're going to say, "Let me think about who I know." Or someone who says, "Hey, um, I'm interested in starting a company."

[01:08:20]You're going to be like, "Awesome. Let me support you in whatever way."

[01:08:25]>> Right. No. Absolutely. And you know when when we when we do talk about the the people who aren't able to handle these situations well that that do end up in in the in these isolated times maybe turn to alcohol where it's they're having these negative thoughts when when we do talk about we always talk about you you need to talk to somebody. Mhm.

[01:08:56]>> So, we've talked about this before. We talked about this on the last episode.

[01:09:00]When when pilots start thinking about that I should be talking to somebody, I need to talk to somebody, they immediately think about their medical and is this going to affect my medical and my ability to fly.

[01:09:17]situations like this, >> you know, if if somebody is is having a difficult time and and they come and and talk to to somebody like you, what position does that put them in with the FAA?

[01:09:32]>> First off, I do want to bring up that this is a real and valid concern for so many people. Not because not because therapy is going to take away their medical. That is not true at all.

[01:09:45]therapy alone will not take away your medical.

[01:09:49]That was only since June of 2024.

[01:09:53]So, it's only been 2 years. When somebody just straight up announces, "Congrats, guys. Y'all can get help. Go on ahead. As long as you have these certain diagnoses, you're fine." That's going to take decades to get around to everyone. And still, the stigma will be there until all of the people holding that stigma are gone. And so 100% I understand being nervous and being scared. Really, it's the diagnosis that matters. When you have lost your job and when you are trying to process something in regards to that, especially when it is so sudden, you should not have a diagnosis.

[01:10:30]This, if anything, would be called something like an adjustment disorder.

[01:10:36]And so an adjustment disorder, it is on the disposition table that all AMDs use.

[01:10:41]I have it on my website as a resource.

[01:10:44]So it is very easily accessible. If anyone goes to my website, they can find it where it says adjustment disorder.

[01:10:50]You can fasttrack it. The FAA does not need your notes. The FAA doesn't need anything when it comes to a diagnosis.

[01:10:57]For me, as as somebody who owns a practice specifically for aviation professionals, I wouldn't see that as long as it's not impairing your functioning in too many different aspects. So, personal, professional, um academic, if you want to go back to school, things like that, um social, then I'm I really don't see a need for you to have a diagnosis for that because you don't need that label on you.

[01:11:25]>> Yeah. So, yeah. when you're when you're when you're you're talking about these things, therapy and like what what what is the difference between just normal grief >> and and a situation where you should be seeking professional help? How you know, how do you kind of like define that line?

[01:11:45]>> Yeah. I mean, anyone can seek therapy.

[01:11:47]The number one thing that I hear from a lot of pilots is, "I'm just so happy that I have somebody to talk this through." Even at the intake, they're going, "Wo, I feel so much better." And it's not because I'm waving a magic wand by any means, but it's somebody that says, "Hey, you're safe over here. You can say whatever you need to say and get out your frustrations about the FAA."

[01:12:05]You can get out your frustrations about the job. It's not that you're going to leave the job. It's just that you're really upset about it and you're still safe to say that. Um, so the major difference is first off that grief. You want to make sure that you're kind of going through those motions. Yes, I can get stuck in the I can't believe that this is happening. and I'm really angry at this. But until it's impacting our functioning, I would say leaning on your support system, as long as they are still there and open and ready to have you, then that could be sufficient enough. Every single person is different. If they start thinking, I have no one to talk to, reach out absolutely 100% just to say, I need some direction in getting through this. I need somebody to help me find a solution or I feel like I'm having 15 million thoughts going through my brain. No, this isn't an anxiety disorder, but I I feel very uncertain and I need some comfort here. I'm not going to tell you these magic words, but I am going to say here's what we can do. Here's the solution that we can find. So making sure that it's not impacting our functionality when we notice that we are not having strong coping mechanisms such as um turning to the bottle, making sure that you know we are staying in bed longer than we should be. Yes, it's really great to prioritize sleep, but how much is too much sleep? When we're noticing that, you know, we're being snappier with our family and friends.

[01:13:33]Listen when your spouse is over here telling you, "Ooh, you're different. I don't I don't appreciate this." When you see more conflict, that's maybe when we should talk to somebody. And you have an hour a week, an hour every other week, even sometimes once a month where you're able to get all of these thoughts out and come to somebody who's able to organize them for you. Now, if you are going to reach out to somebody, I highly recommend that you reach out to somebody who is knowledgeable on the aviation lifestyle because I don't want you wasting your time, you know, uh, like having to explain something to them. So, if somebody knows the aviation lifestyle, that's really great. One little caveat is that if somebody uses insurance, they need to be very, very particular about those sorts of diagnoses because insurance is what requires a diagnosis. It's not the FAA that requires a diagnosis. Insurance is the big one. I'm a completely private pay practice because I don't believe that anyone needs to know your business.

[01:14:34]Insurance has every right to steal those those files. And I don't feel like, you know, anyone should know what's going on in your life. If you're able to function at work, >> great.

[01:14:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Those conversations should be private. And you know, that's that's a whole other subject.

[01:14:52]>> Absolutely.

[01:14:54]you know, you you you mentioned like warning signs. What you know, what are what are some of the warning signs? And you know, if you're a spouse or, you know, a child of of somebody that's in that situation, what you know, what when you know, what kind of things, you know, should you be looking for and and uh be willing to speak up when you see them, >> right? So, typically when we're talking about warning signs, somebody's going to be like, "Okay, well, it has to be the person saying that they don't have any motivation to live." No one's going to be completely outright like that immediately. It's going to be the pervasive negative thinking. So, we've kind of already talked about u on last episode how pilots are kind of prone to that because there there has been so much criticism throughout their training. So when we see it amplified in some way of like nothing's going right right now, that all or nothing thinking of man, I can't do anything right, that's starting some automatic beliefs about oursel. So when we're starting to like outwardly speak those automatic negative thoughts, those ants, and we're not able to swish them and tell them to, you know, go away that those that they don't have any weight. That's when as a spouse I would say, hey, I've I've noticed a little different when somebody is getting a little snappier for a prolonged period of time. We all have our days, sometimes weeks of frustration, but if somebody is getting um a little more irritable, snapping um if somebody is not being as productive as they typically would. Now, when you lose your job, a lot of the time you lose a lot of that structure that's there. But if they are um like if we talk about miss showers, if we talk about the thought of or them saying like what's the point um we're we're starting to see some hopelessness and that's when it's kind of past the time where it's hey like I think that maybe you should talk to someone. It's you you really need to talk to somebody right now because this needs to stop before it gets any worse. When we talk about anxiety, a lot of people can be high functioning. And so they're almost um I'm not going to say manic because typically with mania, we will see um somebody not sleeping ever um for just days at a time or just running on 2 or 3 hours of sleep um in a manic episode.

[01:17:12]But when somebody is overfunctioning, saying, "Wait, I need to prove my worth now that I don't have a job. I need to prove that I'm worthwhile in this household that I am pulling my weight.

[01:17:23]And it's no, you don't you don't need proof that you're a valuable member of this household.

[01:17:29]But a lot of the time it'll be them trying to um have a spotless house, especially when there are multiple kids involved. Like good luck.

[01:17:39]And then when that house is when that house is uh not clean, then it's almost like a big blow up. Um they might start trying to micromanage and to control different things that may be out of their control. So when it does come to children, when it does come to, you know, random schedule changes, we might see a little more irritability with that. Um but that's definitely a time where you say, "Hey, I think that we need to talk to somebody. They think that we need to set aside just one hour for you um to take care of yourself so you are able to get through this and process it.

[01:18:14]>> Right. So you know with for the people that are going through this right now what what tools out there >> can they utilize to like help you know rebuild their identity?

[01:18:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. So first off I would say definitely stay connected to others in aviation. Um that could mean talking to people about what they're planning on doing um after they've also lost their job. So stay connected with those um maybe people that you have flown with that you feel like you really connected with. Create structure within your day as well. So that means that we are not laying in bed all day. We need to get up. We need to find a time um to exercise. Please, please, please get some movement in. when we are getting our movement in that is when we are already taking uh care of our mind and our body. Um so create that structure, create something to look forward to every day. It doesn't have to be a vacation. It doesn't have to be um you know a big outing. It can just be like spending 20 minutes with your significant other and sitting down and talking with them. Um and allow yourself to feel that loss without bypassing it.

[01:19:28]A lot of the time, again, we've talked about that avoidance creating more distress. We need to actually be upset over this. It's okay to be upset. We don't want to push this down because when we do, it's going to come out in other ways. Um, focus on what is in your control. As pilots, we love to be in our in control. So, focus on what you do have. Um, and lastly, I always really want to focus on gratitude again. So, when we start with gratitude, it's going to be like, okay, I'm thankful for my parents. I'm thankful for my kids. I'm thankful for my spouse. Okay, those are the big things. I'm thankful I have a roof over my head. Awesome car drive.

[01:20:05]Then we're going to get much smaller after you're like, okay, I've been through this repetition, but laying your head on the pillow and saying, "What am I truly grateful for?" You're going to start noticing that throughout the day, you're going to say, "Oh, I can add that to my gratitude list." like it could be really stupid. Um like at Costco there's always a line for gas and I was like oh my gosh I'm so thankful that there was not a line for me to get gas today. So that is like what went right today? I was able to get in and get out at Costco. What went right? I'm so thankful that my kids were in a good mood today uh because we were able to have true presence there. It's it's the little things and those little things are going to make more positive neurological connections and then your life satisfaction is going to increase as well when really nothing has changed but you're going to feel much more hopeful >> right I mean that's just great advice for everyday living for for you everybody across all spectrums right I mean that's just great advice I love it >> so yeah >> yeah I I really appreciate you coming on here and uh you know providing you know the advice that you do, the insights and and especially the tools out there for people that you know are struggling out there and I know there's a lot of people that are and uh you know in in closing if uh a spirit pilot or flight attendant called you what you know what there some advice that that you would provide to them in that that first call?

[01:21:42]>> Yeah, absolutely. The main thing, and I feel like I might be a broken record, was it's okay that you need to be in it for a moment, but we need to make sure that we are regulated before we make major life decisions. I mean, I I have had many people who may be in similar positions. I won't say whether it is spirit, whether it's another company, but somebody that's woken up and suddenly they've lost their job. But I want to tell them that that that loss is worth grieving. It's not something silly. I constantly hear people in the aviation community, not just pilots, but crew and then uh airport operators and ATC as well, that will minimize a lot of what they're going through, especially I hear, well, at least I have a job. No, that doesn't mean that that you still aren't frustrated. It's okay to be frustrated. It's okay to be grateful. It's okay to be really upset that something was just thrown at you when you thought that you were finally getting it right. But what just happened, that loss, it doesn't define your future or your value within this world. You are still so much more. And so you're still the same skilled, capable person that you were 24 hours ago. You've just lost the environment that that you were able to express it.

[01:23:00]And now you have the opportunity to make an impact in a new environment.

[01:23:06]Yeah, fantastic advice and I'm I'm I'm glad that's been reiterated throughout this and I I I truly hope that it it gets through to you know the people that are struggling and um you know they they do seek help if they need it um through you or you know whatever other means that that that is and uh so I appreciate you being here. Um we'll we'll keep doing this. I mean, I could sit here and talk for hours with you >> um about all of these things and there's there's just so much to pack in every time.

[01:23:44]>> So, we'll we'll leave this part of it with this episode and uh and uh go on to the next one.

[01:23:54]>> Amazing. Yep.

[01:23:57]>> So, thank you so much for being here again and we'll see you next time. Of >> course. Yeah. Thanks for having me.