BEYOND THE SURFACE - BREAKING THE SILENCE | FEAT DOCTOR JAMES GRIFFIN

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:13]Today's introduce you in just a sec.

[00:00:20]Today's episode on beyond the surface is going to highlight many concerns especially when it comes to sexual exploitation. Now doctor and I obviously had a podcast uh on um Sheek Nordin's channel from memory saves me correct regarding the uh recent financial exploitation and the financial um abuse by a organization in the UK who were using salawat and dua and visitation to the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam's as a form of monetization which was quite sick. thickening and um it just showed that people would stoop as low as possible um and they are behaving no no different to to the and the priests and the monks of the previous nations. But this episode will focus on the sexual exploitation. And I was saying to the brother just before we came on live is that once they gain financial exploitation or once they gain financial you know uh power then men naturally they'll want to you know increase their power and that usually comes by form of you know sex or you know cultism and and that's what we're going to discuss today. So before I start Sheh Dr. James Griffin uh wrote a book uh subhan Allah a very um insightful and um enlightening book called Behind the Mimba confronting sexual misconduct in Muslim institutions. So just to give a brief introduction of the book Behind the Mimba is the first book to document patterns of sexual misconduct within Muslim institutions in the United States and Canada and to name the structural conditions that allow harm to persist.

[00:02:08]Whilst obviously this is more focused in the North Americas which is across the pond in the UK there's been a case uh with a cult which doesn't belong to Islam. We have to make that clear. Ahmedi uh the piece of light and whatever else madesh you know and they were um the police raided their headquarters in crew and there were charges leveled against them of sexual uh forced marriages um I think sexual forced force like you know rape and what whatever else. So it it came at a good time because me and Dr. were talking about this uh for two three weeks. So Dr. Owen sorry to go on a length introduction.

[00:02:48]Um, so I know you wrote this book and we're going to go into the book. I'm going to obviously pick passages from there. So this particular book, what what encouraged you or what made you put pen to paper?

[00:03:02]>> As far as my educational background goes, I I work I got education in like business management, leadership, and I'm pursuing my education going for my doctorate, which I got my doctorate, alhamdulillah. And I wanted to do something that could actually benefit the UMA. And in recent years, I've been, you know, working in the space of spiritual abuse, particularly in the UMA, dealing with cult activity and the things that go on with cult groups. So, it was like perfect timing. I was, okay, how can I write about something or research something that can actually benefit our UMA? So, I focused on sexual m sexual misconduct, specifically sexual misconduct in educational spaces. And now, when we're talking about the UMA, that's kind of expansive because like when you think of education in a secular sense, you're thinking about college, you're thinking about high schools, you know, primary schools, things like that.

[00:03:56]But when we're talking about the UMA, the masid is also e educational space, right? And in recent times also online forums we have all these virtual places where we receive education. So my [clears throat] dissertation my doctoral dissertation was on educator sexual misconduct in the UMA particularly in Canada and in uh United States. So, this book comes directly from my doctoral dissertation as another way to kind of get this information out there to create awareness and to spread the knowledge about this type of misconduct that actually happens in UMA because it's not talked about. You know, the book is is is very easy to read, shorter, takes a lot of the academic language, the stuff that you know, all the different stuff that you have to put into a dissertation and gets right to the point of like, hey, this is something that happens in our um we need to talk about it more. We need to create awareness about it. We need to our leaders need to have knowledge about it. And that was my way of trying to get that word out.

[00:04:59]>> Okay. Interesting. Now, page 27, you mentioned about power and consent. So you just at the end of your your you know your brief explanation about how it works and how the exploitation takes place you mentioned power and in the first paragraph you me mentioned a central misconception surrounding sexual misconduct particularly involving adults is the assumption that consent alone determines legitimacy in Muslim context.

[00:05:22]This assumption is deeply flawed.

[00:05:23]Consent does not override Islamic standards. So could you elaborate on that? Uh what what how would you explain that because you mentioned about the secular context and stuff like that. So explain it in in a way that you know the the viewer would understand what you mean.

[00:05:38]>> Yes. So the majority of the cases there were prosecutions. Um the the majority of the cases were from uh basically a compilation of press releases, court documents of individuals accused and prosecuted for um for sexual misconduct.

[00:05:58]Um but there was also some that people nothing did happen to the individuals um where they actually weren't prosecuted.

[00:06:06]Um it was just a report by multiple individuals reporting that in misconduct happened >> and masids and Islamic centers the internet in institutional access points.

[00:06:18]So I want to touch on that. Now positions of power.

[00:06:23]Many of those who you know fill that position have a great responsibility as we know and sexualization um by using their you know scholarly credentials or their standing within community makes them more accessible to females because of them being of a high stat stature. So what what do you what in terms of the the groups because you mentioned spiritual groups or and whatnot is that where you really find the exploitation rather than from those who hold positions of power in terms of an imam of a masid because spiritual groups in now that we've got the issue in in in the UK it's it's easier is that is that a fair comment is it easier than being an imam or you know someone of a of a a high authority So the cases I all the cases I reviewed were published cases. So it wasn't like you know um I'm targeting Sufi cults or Sufi groups. Um it's just [clears throat] that those were reports that came in and based off the research and if you go into this and and one thing I want people really take away from this is that like [clears throat] I was the first to kind of write about it and put it out there.

[00:07:43]I'm not the first to research this and put it out. I'm the one that put a book out and I did a doctorate on it, right?

[00:07:48]But other people have been talking about it like you said mentioned Danish has been talking about this sort of thing.

[00:07:54]The big one of the big findings that I have and this is kind of like the overall finding of the research is that sexual misconduct in Muslim spaces is very similar to sexual misconduct in non-Muslim spaces. Right? So, it's it's like we don't have to recreate the real or the wheel as far as um learning about it, studying it, figure out how to combat it. It's pretty much the same with our own, you know, our own context as far as being Muslim and certain things, it shows up in different ways.

[00:08:24]But when you're talking about Sufi groups, one thing that always happens when you're talking about sexual misconduct is there's grooming, right?

[00:08:32]And m majority of the cases, there's a period of grooming. And what grooming is for those that don't know, it's to break it down very simply, it's a the methods that are used by an offender to break down the barriers of a potential victim, right? You want to break down those barriers, those defensive barriers. Now not, you know, I don't want to offend the Sufis or the people that are in taras or when you join a tar and you're talking about you're giving bayat to somebody and you know if go to the cult side of it of like this person is my only path to God and they know everything and everything they say is right. You're already breaking down all those barriers, right? You're putting your yourself in a place of vulnerability and offenders target vulnerabilities. Whether it be someone who's new to the faith like a revert, whether it's someone who is looking for some kind of guidance via a Sufi shake or even a Salafi shake. But once you open that vulnerability up to them and you give them that power, that power gives them the ability to take advantage of that. And if you have a bad actor in that position of power, this is where the misconduct happens. Whether it's financial misconduct, sexual misconduct, you know, any type of misconduct, abuse, when you have that vulnerability, you give that person that power, then they can take advantage of it.

[00:09:58]>> Clericism, okay, the belief that religious leaders are morally superior.

[00:10:04]And again, I I don't want to bring up my sort of methodology, but I don't like subscribe to any or even the the concept of beta to a she. So that's something I've always been um I've been raised upon that, you know, you could learn from from an alim. I don't need to now say, you know, that's it. Now you're my door to, you know, righteousness and you're my door to success in the hereafter. But what I don't understand and and doctor, educate me on this because it just seems awfully wrong and and and it just makes me feel uneasy.

[00:10:39]We know Islam has strict punishments for zena. We know this. Like we know if you're unmarried, you get lashed and if you're married under, you know, a a orafa or any Islamic state that implements the shar then if you the it's the the conditions are fulfilled, then you know it's thrown into death. We know this, but because we live in the West, it's I know it sounds bad, but please understand the context cuz I'm not trying to say it's easier or it's less in in uh in sin, but because they believe they can get away with it, then it just shows that they're really taking the the the book of Allah and the sunnah of the prophetam and placing it behind their back. Is that an extreme way of looking at it? It's really it's really not an extreme way to look at it. Um and that's the that's one of the issues that we have to face living in the west is how to navigate you know being Muslim following the Quran and Sunna to the best of our ability when we're also living in a secular society with secular laws and secular standards. Right?

[00:11:48]There's no there's no one body kind of governing what are the right and wrong of Islam. Right? uh in in the West to to the to the average non-Muslim um a Sunni Muslim is no different from a Shiite Muslim is no different from a Nation of Islam quote unquote Muslim like it's no difference to them. So it it doesn't make any difference. So when when you're in the West and you are a leader and and how I've seen it in my in my research is that they know they know like you said you know these things are clearly haram, right? sexual any type of sexual uh relation contact or anything outside of marriage is haram is against the law, right? Islamic law. However, when they get into these spaces, and again, I don't want to make it seem like it's only because like we when we think about these like the offenders, I want to say, or the accused offenders, we think of these evil people that they're just like such these bad people, but it's not always like that, right? Sometimes these are well-intentioned imams that find themselves in bad situations and they make the wrong decisions, right? Um, but what happens is when they get into these spaces where they're trying to justify what they're doing and they're dealing with someone that has less knowledge than them and they find these small different ways to kind of twist the narrative of what Islam is supposed to be and they'll show up in like promises of marriage, you know, some way to justify, okay, we're going to get married eventually and then there's a relationship and maybe they intended on getting married who Allan knows best the problem is that it's wrong and law know it's wrong right so it shows up in that way where these things that we know to be true in Islam and they find very small ways to manipulate it and twist it so that a person can accept it okay now when I looked at the escalation when it comes to the offenders are tested so this is very important I really resonate with this where you said that and this is why I'm very firm on um segregation between men and women especially in these times of hypersexualization it's I believe it's a must like there's look like you said you might start off with noble intentions you might have with like sisters on one side and you know the zena you know it happens you know this is this is just human nature especially for males and one you know takes you take a liking to one of The offenses you mentioned happens on premises within the institution and sometimes off premises. Right. So when they do take it a step further, they test the boundaries as you mentioned. So increased physical proxim proximity, sexualized language or humor, private messaging, emotional reli reliance, and selective affectional withdrawal. Now this is where the problem is, isn't it?

[00:14:50]Because they've already transgressed brands of Sharia straight away. You see because they've already gone close proximity. We know that you know the prophet wasallam said that do not be in along with women or what the prophet said that the third one that the the third one is. So they've already now been religious figures or you know saints not saints sorry uh the the one who's close to God and the one that's religious or you know mutadin or whatever you want to call it.

[00:15:23]um shouldn't like this is where the abuse is in it because they know what they're doing. Like if you really follow the Sharia of Allah, you wouldn't put your stuff in. I know you what you're saying they start off with noble intentions. But I look at it from a kind of malicious way like or I look at it in their eyes, not me. I look at it in in in in the form of this is malicious because they're using their power in order to create all of these, you know, tests and see how close because if the sister was following, you know, uh or guarding her chastity or guarding her honor, she would pretty much put a stop to it straight away. But they know who to target. You see what I mean? They know who to pray on. And now when you look at the harm now the victims cuz obviously you go into it in much detail about the age, the gender and the background. Now doc I I'm of you know Pakistani descent right so obviously the abuse uh and and it does take place and it's shameful and the the west or the kufur capitalizing and go look at this you know imams and you know and we should be held to a higher standard even with the so-called you know what they find amongst the um the the white uh pedophilia gangs and now you find Asian grooming gangs you see so there there's always like you say uh gend gender and background. Now the question I ask you because this was in North America that's why I sort of separated myself. So because I'm from the UK predominantly the daspora are of South Asian background in the US and in the in Canada when you carried out after reviewing those reports uh what was the gender of the perpetrators and the background?

[00:17:05]>> All the genders all the the genders of all the the offenders were male in the in this research study. However, very rarely, I would say it's a small number, there are some female offenders that that do engage this. However, they because like if we we're talking like let's keep it real, like most men aren't going to go report that they've been a victim of sexual misconduct by a woman, right? There's all these dynamics that that play into that, but they they do happen. However, they go unreported like most cases of sexual misconduct.

[00:17:40]Um, but again, but majority, like 90% of all cases is going to be a male offender.

[00:17:48]>> So, we got we got we got the gender out the way. So, that's that's number one.

[00:17:51]The background is what I'm interested in because North America is very diverse when it comes to the Muslim population.

[00:17:58]So, I don't know when it comes to your um you're from New York. I'm speaking about the states because it's massive.

[00:18:06]So background are they of a certain ethnic group or it's varied mixed >> from from what I've seen there was no there was no like statistic leaning one way or another for any type of ethnic racial or you know nationality type background what generally what what it what showed is that for instance in United States we have all types of masids you you go to one masid and it's going to be a predominantly Somali masid go to another masid it's going to be p uh you know predominantly maybe African-Americans or then you know Pakistani or like that's that's how it is here. Then you'll have mixed masids.

[00:18:42]So it seemed to the pattern generally was like whatever your masid predominantly was that's the type of nationality, race, ethnicity the offender was.

[00:18:53]>> Okay. So so I know and again you could correct me with uh my sort of understanding of the demographic. So I know in New York there's a big Bengali population right of of Muslims that live in New York. And I know in Philadelphia because you went into um the pattern of vulnerability which I'm going to get to now that new Muslims predominantly in Philadelphia uh they're going to be uh African-American reverts right in in that part of of the US. So where you got belonging to a Sufi group and I know I must say this because we we we have to be blunt right belonging to a Sufi group as of Pakistani South Asian background.

[00:19:31]Do you find predominantly those abusing from of South Asian background?

[00:19:36]>> So for yeah for the reverts it was all spectrums and you can kind of see the similarities between someone joining a Sufi group and a revert Muslim right because like when you join a Sufi group if you're coming in fresh like you're looking for something you're you're you're you're like you're learning from the people inside the group and this is like the people you're taking knowledge from. Same thing with a reaver, right?

[00:20:00]They're coming in fresh, new to Islam, you know, very um I would say naive because like when you first become Muslim, like you you have this idea like everything's perfect. You know, all these Muslims are Islam is perfect, so all the Muslims are perfect and everything is right. Right. And interesting enough, we had, you know, we had the same situation or similar situations in the states where again I would I would say on the Salafi side of things where these reverts Muslims are being taken advantage of and you know like you said like you know the the quick marriages that pretty much okay technically it might be halal but are you like this is not proper where you're just marrying people and then divorcing them very quickly and and passing these women on along and then they learn to despise Muslim men in Islam period and they leave the religion you know so the the revert the revert community and it works kind of two ways and I don't want to take the responsibility off to our Muslim leaders that should know better they have the knowledge right but like you said you the reverts are coming from like maybe a dating background right and they're also coming from a background where there's no separation of genders So, and if you look at it from like, okay, the the the new imam that doesn't have really he come maybe he came from overseas where there was strict gender separation, never really had to deal with a a a woman walking into his office while he's alone and then shutting the door behind him and wanting to have a private conversation, right? This is first time he ever like these these are these dynamics. And then on the re on the revert sister side, maybe she doesn't know that like, oh, you're not allowed to date, you're not allowed to touch, you're not allowed to have private conversations. And you put that in there and then that's where you have these secret marriages. You have these secret polygyny and polygamy relationships going on. So, our revert sisters are especially vulnerable to if you have a bad actor um taking advantage of them, if they're in authority position.

[00:22:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What background they were? Okay. Okay. Now, this is another one that I think we can sort of correlate uh have have a parallel agreement new Muslims. So, with new Muslims, you know, may Allah, you know, keep them firm on the dean. They rely on born Muslims a lot, which is natural, right? It's like when you start a new job. When you start a new job, you're new. You're going to rely on those who are more experienced, right? So you know it just it's just sort of that that you know body bouncing off you know someone who's more experienced. So someone who's born Muslim would naturally again it doesn't there's exceptions but naturally will be more uh understanding of the religion has more you know context to what's allowed and what's not allowed but new Muslims now because we had a case I wouldn't say case there was more Chinese whispers but it was like it was known among some saly circles right without putting the blame on which Salify group it is you know what I'm talking about but there was some whispers amongst the selfie circles that they were marrying revert sisters and these revert sisters because they potentially came from a dating background. They thought it's the same you know you marry it doesn't work out bye-bye move on to the next one a week later and not move on but meaning look for a potential spouse but they don't know obviously of the ida period so there was Chinese whispers that there were brothers from a sophie background who were just marrying saying to saying you know what I've got another brother if you're interested in and there's no and this cycle was just happening so in in the states in the north America what was the uh the the vulnerable ility of of new Muslims. Was it Sufi groups again or was it across all spectrums?

[00:23:58]>> So for yeah for the reverts it was all spectrums and you can kind of see the similarities between someone joining a Sufi group and a revert Muslim, right?

[00:24:09]Because like when you join a Sufi group, if you're coming in fresh, like you're looking for something, you're you're you're you're like you're learning from the people inside the group and this is like the people you're taking knowledge from. Same thing with the reaver, right?

[00:24:21]They're coming in fresh, new to Islam, you know, very um I would say naive because like when you first become Muslim, like you you have this idea like everything's perfect, you know, all these Muslims are Islam is perfect, so all the Muslims are perfect and everything is right. Right. And interesting enough, we had, you know, we have the same situation or similar situations in the states where again I would I would say on the Salafi side of things where these reverts Muslims are being taken advantage of and you know like you said like you know the the quick marriages that pretty much okay technically it might be halal but are you like this is not proper where you're just marrying people and then divorcing them very quickly and and passing these women on along and then they learn to despise Muslim men in Islam period and they leave the religion, you know. So the the revert the revert community and it works kind of two ways and I don't want to take the responsibility off the our Muslim leaders that should know better. They have the knowledge, right?

[00:25:24]But like you said, you the reverts are coming from like maybe a dating background, right?

[00:25:30]And they're also coming from a background where there's no separation of genders.

[00:25:36]So, and if you look at it from like, okay, the the the new imam that doesn't have really he come maybe he came from overseas where there was strict gender separation. Never really had to deal with a a a woman walking into his office while he's alone and then shutting the door behind him and wanting to have a private conversation. Right. this is first time he ever like these these are these dynamics and then on the re on the revert sister side maybe she doesn't know that like oh you're not allowed to date you're not allowed to touch you're not allowed to have private conversations and you put that in there and then that's where you have these secret marriages you have these secret polygyny and polygamy relationships going on so our revert sisters are especially vulnerable to if you have a bad actor um taking advantage of them if they're in authority position.

[00:26:29]>> I'm going to the offender profile. Now, this is something that caught my eye when I was reading and the profile um the profiles you mentioned and number one the prominent scholar. Okay. So, in the US you had that case of that that despicable disgraced individual that forgot his name. Wasim Sharif was his name and uh you know Quran teacher you see. So they've got they got their uh titles and their spiritual you know position that they hold. I think there's a hadith that mentioned that was mentioned the prophet said that uh if the most within my will be the ones who are the reciters and imi placed this in his. So you mentioned the prominent scholar role founder director and principal of a private Islamic boarding institute served simultaneously as the imam primary religious instructor. So was 70 years old. Like who?

[00:27:28]>> Yep. 70 70 years old. And and the problem with and this is what you find a lot and and especially my research showed this is where you you can have a situation where there's an offender who commits an offense against a young girl.

[00:27:45]And one thing that people really need to know about this this uh this uh situation or this this topic is that the majority of people just don't report.

[00:27:55]Right? So just a statistic out there.

[00:27:57]There's we because there's problems with reporting and data collection and there's no central body there. There's no we only can estimate how much this actually occurs. And the best estimations we have is that one in one in 10 student or congregant will experience some form of sexual misconduct in their life. But we do know that [clears throat] maybe only 20% of people that actually experience sexual misconduct actually report it to somebody.

[00:28:29]So what happens is and you this showed up in my study is that people experienced sexual misconduct when they were like young, you know, adolescent, teenager, young adult, but then they didn't report it to maybe 10, 15, 20 years later.

[00:28:47]And in the meantime, you know, like you have this 70 year old individual who, you know, may have done this, you [clears throat] know, 20, 30 years ago, never got reported, never got caught, and he's going to keep on doing it because now he's got a pattern of like I can get away with this, you know. So, it's it just shows that like, you know, the Islam is perfect. Muslims aren't.

[00:29:10]And a lot of times us Muslims we we you know we think because we're Muslim we take that perfection of Islam and it's just it's it's cast ac across our umahma right and we think that you know that we're not going to experience the same type of um I guess you could say troubles that non-Muslim communities face right we look at sexual abuse and or misconduct and we're like oh that's a Catholic church thing that that doesn't affect us right yeah like No, it it affects we have it too and we have to deal with it. And the answer we the the fortunate thing is that we have the answer. If we just practice Islam properly with all this rules and regulations, it's going to protect us from a lot of this stuff.

[00:29:53]>> I agree. And I think that the the case that I was aware of I think in the States, I forgot the uh the brother's name. He mentioned about I think it's in Dallas. You're probably aware of it. and the the the kid had like bruises on his cheek or I can't remember whether it was this cheek or the other cheek, but they just covered it up and they allowed for him to to to fly out of the US and they try to put it to certain cultural uh practices within a certain community which was absolutely preposterous and this is this is the issue because it's this concept and I don't know about obviously you coming from re background but there's there's emphasis on shame and there's emphasis on this will bring shame on the community not knowing that what we're what we're covering up is so anti-Islam that if they were living under a Sharia a compliant country there would be no escape and if anything the book will be thrown whether you know again whether it be under the hadud depending on the witnesses or it be punishments there will be a punishment regardless whether it be to apply either had in it according to the Quranic injunction or the the the prophetic injunction or it be according to the kadi. So the next question is obviously before going to offender two um apart from the shame element what else is there that that makes certain people within the community refrain from reporting this isn't there something else like what is it apart from so-called shame? So there you there's a lot of there's a several things that as far as our community is concerned overall that that kind of prevents us from reporting the thing you mentioned about shame that's a big one right and it has to do with our you know in general the Muslim um no matter what background you come from has a collectivist conservative culture right so and with a collectivist culture What what one of the things that comes with being a collectivist culture is that we look out for the group over the individual.

[00:32:09]So when something like this pops up, the first thing that we as a whole as a community think of is like, well, what's going to happen to the image of Islam, right? Especially living in the west when we deal with Islamophobia. We're like, okay, we don't want this to be in the paper. They're gonna think all Muslims are pedophiles. they're going to and we start thinking about that instead of thinking about like well what about the victim what does Islam say so that idea of like shame the collectivist of like and another thing that keeps us from reporting is our our our misunderstanding of the concept in Islam where we keep sins private right because you'll see this come up all the time and I'm pretty sure you've you've with the work that you do you've heard it all the time like don't expose the brother's fault. It's Stockfield law. You can't do that. You have to keep it give him 70 excuses and go to him privately and all these different things, right? [snorts] And so people, we have this general idea of like we just supposed to keep every sin silent, not knowing that no sins that actually affect the rights of other people, transgress other people, you don't keep those private, right? You you have to expose those to protect our society, you know?

[00:33:24]And another another thing that kind of prevents what >> just to add just before cutting you off is that the imin is and in the concept of backbiting because this is like you before you continue sorry to cut you off is that they always say this is this is you're doing you're doing backbiting and they caught the verse are you happy and content to eat the flesh of your dead brother and we say hold on you don't understand about and about mats and about facad and about things that are done that causes you know so much corruption that until this person is brought to Islam's a you boast about that oh Islam is just and he has a compromising you know system but then when it comes to certain people you know or certain people from your community that you know then all of a sudden you know and 70 excuses not understanding that's not even a prophetic narration it's not even a Quranic verse it's two statements from uh and you use this as if sin needs to be not brushed under the carpet where victims are neglected. So yeah, sorry. Actually, I just want to get that out there because that's a very good point that you raised.

[00:34:29]>> Oh, that's that's that's perfect. That's perfect. We definitely need and that's what we need to do. You know, the our leaders have to kind of teach the correct understanding of these concepts even if it goes against yourself, right?

[00:34:42]You could have like there's certain we can look at the the the YouTube influencers, the the quoteunquote, we call them YouTube shakes, dies, whatever you want to call them, they have a large following on social media and it could be argued like some of these people have their own cult followings, right? And the way that whenever there is a controversy or an issue or a disagreement even, right? Um it could be even a friendly disagreement. the way that some of these followers turn up in the comments or making their own videos or whatever to defend some of these individuals is clearly that they're in this cultlike following. But even when you're in those situations, I believe that our leaders need to actually like, well, no, this person can criticize me.

[00:35:23]This person has a right to speak out and and not just ride that wave that's going to kind of sweep possible transgressions and oppressions under the rug, keeping our women silent. And that's that's generally the theme of the main thing that keeps our our our UMA our community silent on these types of issue is that we have a culture of silence where it's like you just just don't talk about it.

[00:35:48]Talk about it privately. Don't bring it up. Don't expose this. Don't and especially in the west when we're dealing like I said islamophobia, right? Um legal and and a lot of times I'll mention this real quick. A lot of times our communities don't know the actual laws of the land where like they don't know that for instance in a school we have what we call in America called mandated reporting where is if you're an educator and you hear about allegations of sexual misconduct or abuse or anything you are mandated to report it to the authorities.

[00:36:25]Many of our teachers and stuff don't even know that. They like think, "Oh, we got to deal with it internally. I'm going to go to instead of going to the police, I'm going to go to the the imam of the local masid and tell him and then my job's done." No. Like you could be legally liable and be sued. And we I found this in my studies. Sued for multi-million dollar lawsuits where you can destroy like that could destroy your whole Islamic institution. Your school's going to shut down. Your mas is going to shut down. Right? So people have to take this type of stuff seriously. protect just to protect a vol a oppressive corrupt person an oppressive person but just touching on before we go into offender too because I just want to break it down. Um the the concept of hiding it, not exposing it, the the concept of exposing a sin, right, when it affects the community is a must. When this person's sexually, you know, abusing their power, abusing their authority, then this person is not about hiding the sin. This is a great this is a this is a major sin. So if this person got a private, you know, room full of adolescent children and he's teaching them Quran and he's been found and there allegations and the reason why I mentioned allegations because mentioned and this is authentic narrated. He said that whoever has has accusations presented against him of any accusation then don't blame anyone that people had this assumption of you and then he mentioned that said that we we we when something becomes so overpowering think good of your brother think good of him meaning he's saying if you if something comes in front of you that is someh man some accusations and don't blame anyone but yourself but we see that we should look at our brother's situation with good and look what says yo they'll twist whatever they do you we know what they're like said until something comes to you that overpowers you now it's overpowered you you think good but now it's overpowered you this report's coming that report's coming this you know uh accusation's coming now I'm sorry We need to we need to address this now.

[00:38:47]Very important. Very important. So and we and this is why like even the the concept of the 70 excuses, right? And I would have said this to one of the brothers that if someone come to me which and and you need to give him 70 excuses. Just think about this for a second. If someone come to me and I could smell alcohol from his breath, right? In this time and this day and age, I will be honest with you. I'm not going to give him 70 excuses. I'm not going to give him 70 excuses. I'm the opposite. I'm going say, "Hold on.

[00:39:20]You've got alcohol smelling from your breath." So, you need to understand that if anyone comes to you with this, most of them are committing these sort of actions. They're the ones that are doing this themselves and they're the ones trying to cover the next person because they're the one engrossed in it. You see? So, offender number two. So, I'll I'll sort of pace through this as much as I can because we're coming near to the end. the famous reciter. Did we get the name of this famous reciter who's leading Tawi and youth programs and counseling services? Like what what was the situation with that?

[00:39:50]>> So I don't I don't know if you've heard of him. So I didn't put it in my in my study or my book just for you know whatever legal reasons or whatever because this is one of those individuals that never got brought to justice for the accusations that came in. Um however I mean I'm not afraid to say his name.

[00:40:07]the the brother's name. Oh gosh, what is his name? Now I'm forgetting his name.

[00:40:12]He's from the US. Um Oh god.

[00:40:19]>> I know. I know. I know. Fate. Fate.

[00:40:21]>> Yes. Yes. There you go. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:40:25]>> There were but but there were videos where he was like with the sister, you know, he was alone with them and stuff. so much evidence, so many so many complaints from multiple multiple uh accusations from different people, different states that came in. And that's one thing that we kind of have to for our um to understand is just because someone doesn't necessarily go to jail doesn't mean that they didn't do anything wrong, right? Um because for instance there's there's there's our standard as Muslims of what we would say sexual misconduct is right and for us as Muslims sexual misconduct is any type of sexual or physical interaction between a non-MA man and a woman outside of marriage that should not be happening right so now when you have a case for in I'll give a hypothetical you have a famous recer who I'm not I'll give the exact exact accusation you have a Uh, one of the exact uh, accusations you have a famous reciter who goes on a date with a teenage revert Muslim, takes her in a parking lot and starts fondling her. That's the accusation, right?

[00:41:43]Then she never reports to the cops. He doesn't go to jail. Does that mean like, oh, he's innocent. He didn't go to jail.

[00:41:50]No, he committed zena. He took advantage of a revert Muslim. there's he still should be like held accountable to the level that we can hold somebody accountable as a UMA right but he still gets invited to guest lecture and >> I'll give you one point that needs um highlighting or even written in gold that you've got rules or we got standards within the Sharia where we talk we talk about evidence that there's evidence that in Islam we call circumstantial evidence which is called and we have circumstantial evidence. So you know when they you hear this phrase you've got no concrete evidence. No in the we don't need to have concrete evidence.

[00:42:35]The only the concrete evidence we need is if we apply the if we apply the penal code we need concrete evidence then but if there's circumstantial evidence meaning if we have that then the can still punish you. So for example, if someone committed a crime, then the you could have a concept where someone committed a crime and there's no evidence to apply the had, but you can have you could have imprisonment forever even though it's not written in the Quran. Very important. I wanted to highlight that because circumstantial evidence is ignored. And I've got I've done a video on this. So what I could do is I could share it. So I'll give you one example that um what's it called? Uh where's that narration gone? Um it's here somewhere. Yeah. So it's a very famous one where there was a woman that said that some man raped her. I've done a video on it. All the evidence are here but I just don't want to go through it. And she said look the the stain there's a stain on me like of money of of of semen. So then you being the the the most wise judge he said okay let let me see what's going on. So he did something and he found out there was egg yolk. You know it was egg rather than money. You see? So this is and this is circumstantial evidence.

[00:43:53]Another one would be the famous one of the battle of bad. So two orphans came to the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam during the no came to um no it wasn't the prophetam it was one of the companions but one of the companions. I forgot the name. This is Bkari and they asked who's Abu Jahad? Who was Abu Jah?

[00:44:08]Cuz they were from the Ansar. They were orphans from the Ansar. They know who he was. And the the man I forgot his name now said or nephews what you want to do with him?

[00:44:17]He goes, "We've heard that he insulted the prophetam." They go, "Point to him.

[00:44:21]Who is he?" So they point. So the companion of the pointed towards Abu Jahalam.

[00:44:27]And then before he as soon as I pointed, they rushed towards him and they struck him. So they came to the prophetam and both of them started arguing said, "I'm the one that killed him." And the other ones said, "I was the one that killed him." And the prophet said, "Show me your swords and I will see who had blood stains on them." And they both had blood stains on them. The prophet says both of you have a share in his killing. The proam didn't see him. The proam wasn't witness to it. But you circumstantial evidence. Just because we didn't see you on CCTV in 4K, just because you know there were prosecuted doesn't mean you didn't do it. You see what I mean? And these are the loopholes. And these are the loopholes and technicalities they use.

[00:45:04]>> Exactly. Yeah.

[00:45:06]and and and important because one of the big things you hear when you're when you're like reading going into these cases and seeing how people respond online and comments, one of the the the most I guess you could say that the highest level comment or response you hear from people is where are your four witnesses and like well I mean that's for like you said like it makes perfect sense but that's for the hood like to get the four witnesses and yeah the HUD right >> to apply the HUD So I'll give you another example. It would be just to show them that circumstantial evidence matters. So I me and you walk past a house and as we're walking past the house and this is written in the books of as well. Um as we're walking past the house we see a man running out the house with a knife covered in blood. So we've seen someone run out the house with a knife covered in blood but we didn't see him do the killing. So we thought me and you thought yo James let's go in because something doesn't seem right here. We go upstairs and we see someone dead.

[00:46:04]You know what I mean? And blood splattered all over the floor. So we've now circumstantial evidence will show us. Hold on. We seen a guy run out the house. He's got a knife on him covered in blood. It could only be this Hayawan that did it. You see what I mean? So this is where even with Zena now, for example, you need four witness to apply the had. But if me and you walk past and we see someone in a car and we've seen, you know, him come out and a sister come out and they're putting on their underd drawers and whatnot. You know what I'm saying? And then we go to the car, we see smelling of alcohol and we see condoms. You see now now and we see semen traces in that car and they come out the car. Now circumstantials will show us that there's something that happened there. But I didn't see me and you and two other witnesses didn't see.

[00:46:49]So we can't apply the had. You see what I mean? So that that's it in a nutshell.

[00:46:53]So circumstantial evidence is something that we need to highlight. I've done a video on it. I'll sh I'll share it to you. It' be very good for you to watch it as well so that we can spread this sort of you know because technicalities with these muj and these and these they'll always use circumstantial technicalities to get themselves out of these out of these predicaments because they they play with the text. And these why I call them they're no different to these rabbis and priests that Allah mentioned in the Quran that they taken them. I'm not saying they take them as lords and ra as as worship, but what they did was that they twist the dean.

[00:47:26]They twist the religion and then they they use it for their own benefit. So just bringing it to a close, I know there's a lot of offenders on here.

[00:47:33][laughter] I don't want to go through all of them, but bringing it to to a close, I know you got your conclusion here and you mentioned about hope and reform. Uh so the path forward so what would you advise me and the viewers that are going to be watching this about bringing this um you know shameful uh conduct of individuals not fearing the you know uh community because in this particular dean of ours we have to maintain justice and if those who are wearing the cloak of scholarship are not brought forward and and sometimes expose James doc is is the way forward because we we don't live in an Islamic country that we could enforce the Islamic rulings. So what's the path forward for us in the west?

[00:48:20]>> I believe the the path forward definitely starts with you know sharing this type of information, sharing this video, spreading knowledge, talking knowledge, talking about it, spreading awareness awareness about the topic and not just this topic because this this is just one form of leadership misconduct.

[00:48:40]We could put it under that that whole category of leadership misconduct because you like we mentioned we have there's financial misconduct there's just abuse of authority there's you know twisting all types of different ways leaders in our uma especially in the west can abuse their their leadership roles and the leaders doesn't just include masid leaders school leaders it includes our online personalities it includes our people that are running charity organizations it includes everybody that's running our Islamic um right that we look for for guidance and direction and our services and all these different things. So step one spread the knowledge right create awareness talk go to your masids and say hey you know I I know we have we have Islamic seminars and programs and you know we we'll talk about da we'll talk about Islamic history and all these I call them feel-good seminars you know what let's have one on financial transparency let's have one on sexual misconduct and and bring these types of speakers and talk about these things right um the Step two would be to try to be a voice for somebody, right?

[00:49:54]Because we don't have in the west and that's a big problem why this happens.

[00:49:58]We don't have a central like authority on anything. Every every mid could pretty much just do what they want when they want and have no accountability to anybody besides the actual secular government, right? Which we have to create some kind of form of accountability which brother just mentioned. It is the expose right now, right? It's the voice of the people.

[00:50:19]When you have no way to kind of hold somebody accountable is you have to kind of hold them accountable through the public eye. And that means exposing people to the public so that they know like you know what I'm not going to it could be as little as I'm not going to follow that person anymore. I'm not going to go to that person's lecture. It could be going to your imam and say, "Hey, don't invite this person here because I know that they've been accused of XYZ."

[00:50:47]Right. Right. Just support the people that are doing this work. Um myself, I'm on Return to Fitra on YouTube. That's Return to number two, Fitra. Fi T R Ah.

[00:50:59]You can go to our channel. We cover certain things. You should be already following Brother and his content.

[00:51:04]And there's other people out here doing similar work. Um it's again, it's part it's part of Da. It's a part of protecting our UMA, right? But I I like to say it's the dirty work because people don't want to hear mostly don't want to hear about this stuff. They don't want to hear about their favorite shake is doing stuff in in improperly, right? Um but you could support, like, follow, share the videos, and and I guess that would be it, you know. Um again, my my book is uh on Amazon if you want to get that. It's it's behind the minbar. You can just search that on Amazon and find that. But I'm not trying to sell my book. I'm trying to spread awareness, >> right? Like >> no, no, we should support. We should support Dr. I be honest. I've got I've got the book. May Allah reward you. And now I've read it and I'm and if you share me the link, I think it's vitally imperative that a lot of effort, a lot of research has gone into this. And I and like you said, it's not the feelood videos or the feelood stories that many of your popular she would tell you about how, you know, was a businesswoman and how independent she was and how, if you know what I mean, the feminist sort of rhetoric. We need to hear about the home truth because, no offense, these sisters might be their potential victims, you know. So yeah, we we need to be strong, forceful, resilient and look, I've been speaking about the charity sector for two years and I can see, you know, to Allah that there's now a conversation being had, you know, not to tell I'm going to change a billion dollar sector, but at least people now are more aware.

[00:52:29]They've got education. They understand that there's there is sinister people or groups or companies out there that use Gaza, use Nuban and use, you know, all these different countries for their own financial interest. So yeah, we have to think about moving forward. You know, I'll put the the book in the uh in the description and in the comments section or just I'll pin it. Uh support obviously Dr. James Griffin obviously subscribe to his channel. I know these these type of discussions feel like okay look you know we're we're struggling in the west Islamophobia is on the ro how are we going to improve our situation here? We got to improve our situation by cleaning the in-house exposing those who are using the dean as a vehicle in order to maximize revenue and get people get positions of power.

[00:53:15]So we are on the right track.

[00:53:17]Alhamdulillah I think we're it's more spoken than it was ever before. Uh and inshall there there will be those who are going to be called out uh consistently. don't think you're going to get away with your uh corruption and your misconduct whether it be financial or sexual that the um is alive and we will continue whether it's a small group of us you will hear from us we want you to feel constriction of the heart so thank you for attending and inshallah uh we'll obviously communicate and I'm sure this won't be the last uh collaboration that we have mean for having me I really appreciate It alum.