Jonathan Edwards: Racist Slave-Owner? Interview with JE Scholar John T. Lowe

[00:00:02]Okay, we're going to get right into the conversation and topic on Jonathan Edwards and racism today. There are some that would say that Jonathan Edwards is a racist because he held slaves. I'm talking to John T. Low today. John, what do you say when people argue that Edwards is a racist? Is that true?

[00:00:19]>> Well, it's a very complicated question, right? Um, one of the issues I have with that question is that it assumes that Edwards held at the same position his entire life, right? It automatically assumes that um that just because someone held slaves or held enslaved people, they were automatically a racist, right? There's very different uh there's very many different traditions strands of the participation of slavery ever since the beginning of time. Most most people look back to the Roman Empire all the way up through the middle ages then to the very early modern period to which Edwards uh really is active in right in the 18th in the 18th century. So is Edwards a racist? Well, most people think that well he most definitely was because he participated in slavery. That's it's a very simple question and most people want a very simple answer, right? But it's not it's not anything like anything with Edwards.

[00:01:20]It's not going to be simple. It's going to be complex.

[00:01:22]>> Yeah. It sounds like you're arguing that his position actually changed and modified over time, which is probably true for a lot of us, viewpoints that we hold at one point in our lives might actually change or grow or mature over time. Do you think that Edwards's view of race actually matured in some sense as he got more mature in Christ and even as he got older? Oh, absolutely. I think that his views on race and his particular viewpoints on slavery probably evolved just like anyone's theology. It changes over time um over the course of his life. And what might surprise people is that there is nothing in Edwards's literary corpus that uh that suggests that his defense of slavery was racially motivated. And so I think people have a really hard time saying that Edwards was a racist because he owned slavery when his defense of slavery had really had no uh racial motivation.

[00:02:22]>> Well, today we're talking with John T.

[00:02:24]Low. And John T. Low just came out with a brand new book and it is available already on Amazon.com and other places.

[00:02:31]The name of the book is Benevolence and Bondage and it's published with South Carolina University Press. And you know what we're going to do today? Thank you so much for listening in on this conversation. My name is Matthew Everhard. I'm one of the pastors here at Gospel Fellowship PCA. We're a reformed Bible believing church just north of Pittsburgh. If you're looking for a church like that, come visit us in real life. What we're going to do today on this podcast is we're actually going to give away a copy of John Low's book, Benevolence and Bondage. To qualify for the giveaway, you have to be a follower of John T. Low on Twitter or on X. And John, why don't you give a little bit of introduction about yourself and how it is that you came to study our mutual affection, our mutual study um um passion, let's say Jonathan Edwards. How did you come to study Jonathan Edwards?

[00:03:23]>> Uh I was a graduate student uh at the time and I went and took a summer seminar course up at Yale Divinity School on Jonathan Edwards and the Bible under Ken uh Dr. Ken Minka, Dr. Adrian Nele up at the Jonathan Edwards Center, the mothership, the Jonathan Edwards mothership up at Yale Divinity School.

[00:03:43]And there I became aware for the first time of Jonathan Edwards's participation in slavery. And I was a bit uh I had a mixed emotions. I felt a little bit overwhelmed. I thought, how is it that a uh the cavalier of the first great awakening uh you know this great intellectual Christian thinker, how could he participate in something that's so wicked and vile at least from today's perspectives? How could he do something like that? And so it was there in uh 2015 I really became enthralled by the topic of uh Jonathan Edwards uh in slavery. Um currently I'm a senior lecturer in the history department at the University of Louisville. Uh, and uh, my book, Benevolence and Bondage, uh, just came out with University of South Carolina Press, and I've been working on a few other things, but uh, yeah, uh, the topics of race and religion during the 18th century uh, really uh, is what I what I focus on.

[00:04:41]>> That's so great. Well, let's focus in on this giveaway here for just a second.

[00:04:44]So, in order to win the book, Benevolence and Bondage, you have to be a follower of John Low on Twitter. So, give us your handle there. And John, you want to set up any other parameters for this? We should probably say that the winner has to live within the continental United States of America so we can mail that book to you easily. But John, how are you going to pick the winner for this book? And then we're going to talk about the book and go through some of the important content therein.

[00:05:07]>> Yeah, sure. Uh you can follow me uh to to enter to win. You can uh you can follow me on on Twitter or x at low johnthomas. Um, I'll probably send out a tweet or I'll tweet out this video uh for the book giveaway. You have to like it, follow me, and retweet it >> and follow that sounds great. Pastor Matt Everhard.

[00:05:26]>> Yeah, of course. Well, everybody already does that. That's just >> everyone already does that. Of course, >> I will tweet and retweet and relink and all that kind of stuff, the video as well. So, you can pick the winner and then you can send it out to that particular individual. And John, while we're promoting our wares here, let me just mention too that the Jonathan Edwards study Bible is on pre-sale right now. and you can grab that on Amazon.

[00:05:47]It's a study Bible devoted to helping readers understand Edwards's interpretation of scripture. So, that's available as well. But we're here to talk about your book on race and Edwards's various views of race and slavery and so forth o over time. Let's start out, John, if you could, and just paint the big picture of where we are in Edwards's life. What does the cultural millu tell us a little bit about the sits in Liban in which Edwards lives and what are people thinking about the concepts of race and slavery at his time just generally at large before we get into Edwards himself?

[00:06:26]>> Sure. Edwards uh is born in the in the in the colonies in the American colonies. Uh he very much possesses a British colonial ethos, right? He's part of the upper echelons of the British elite. Uh as you as most people know that uh he comes from uh two great lines of ministers uh the river gods in there in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Um and uh he grew up uh his entire life uh with uh enslaved people uh in his house working for his parents, his grandparents. He eventually uh end up ended up enslaving uh a few uh a few people of African descent in his own house later after he got married. Uh but it was very common at the time. Um and that's still again that's still no excuse uh for his participation. But it was a very common thing and for most people they did not question the practice of slavery. Uh most people most scholars uh say that Edwards had you know a foot in two different worlds. He was uh schooled in in a medieval tradition, but he had a foot uh in the enlightenment period in a very modern in a very modern uh sense. And so it's only around Edwards's time where people really begin to question uh not only the uh the slave trade, but also slavery as an institution. And so there's this uh there's this idea of well, is slavery actually, you know, a good thing here in the American colonies? And is it a good thing at all? Is it is it an institution uh that we that we should participate in there in the uh in the American colonies? So, it's very up in the air around the time Edwards is an adult.

[00:08:10]There's definitely works being produced uh that really questioned the practice of slavery. Now, what kind of uh evidence do we have about Edwards's slave ownership? Are there any documentary resources that we can look to that proves that he was a slave owner? We take it for granted that he was, but is there anything interesting as it relates to Edwards's slaves that he held? Do we know anything about them, their names, their backgrounds, anything like that?

[00:08:37]>> Yes. Uh there are a few different slave receipts uh that we have. One is uh which most people know is that uh he had purchased a very young girl I think around the the age of 14. Uh her name was Venus. Um but I think Richard A.

[00:08:54]Bailey, he's another uh scholar up in New York. Uh he rightly suggests that it's probably uh Edward's probably renamed her Leah and given her a biblical name as would be fitting for a minister in New England. So they're probably it's probably the same person, Venus and and Leah. There's another for sure. Uh and the slave receipt for Titus has recently been discovered over the past uh couple of years by Ken Minkma up at Yale. Um, the shepher uh the family the Shepherd family papers uh contained a slavery for the Edwards where Edwards bought a uh an African-American uh boy somewhere around the age of two and he actually has a phenomenal uh a phenomenal life. Uh there is very little uh evidence uh that we have historical evidence we have for Titus, but we know that he was born uh into slavery, served in the Edwards Edwards household, eventually fought in the uh the American Revolutionary War, got freedom, ended up owning land in New York. Um so, uh it's a fascinating life. Not enough to write a biography, but it's just another story that um is kind of lost, uh a loss to history. So there are a few there are a few documents that um that support Edwards's um own slave ownership.

[00:10:14]>> Wow, that's really interesting. So we conjecture, we're not 100% sure, but we think that Venus, which is actually kind of a pagan name, the name of a pagan goddess was probably or at least possibly could have been renamed as Leah, which is a Christian name from the Old Testament scriptures and Genesis.

[00:10:33]That's interesting in and of itself. And then this Titus individual also seems to have lived quite the remarkable life having fought in the Revolutionary War and then later becoming a land owner.

[00:10:43]That's great. That's really interesting.

[00:10:45]>> Yeah. Uh phenomenal stuff. And I'm sure there's u archives and archives of of things in New England that have yet to be uh transcribed, even discovered. And so I'm sure that one day we'll find more information um more information about Titus.

[00:11:02]>> Yeah. So, what do we know about Edwards's treatment of these slaves? Do we know if he was vicious to them, if he was cruel to them? Do we know anything about the way that he spoke to them or what kinds of tasks he would have given them around the house and the farm? In other words, you could at least theoretically conceive of a benevolent slave owner versus a cruel slave owner who was a wicked taskmaster. Do we have anything of the sense of Edwards's character as it relates to his slaves?

[00:11:31]>> No. Uh there isn't uh there isn't any type of uh any type of historical document or anything that that Edwards wrote that uh outlines what he uh required of his slaves. More than likely um it would have been his wife Sarah that would have appointed tasks for the uh for the slaves in the house. He um as u as you probably already know probably uh the listeners, he did not uh really have too much oversight into uh the things around the house, the farm. He was mostly consumed with study. So more than likely it would have been Sarah, his wife, that would have appointed duties for them. There's also nothing uh there's nothing that points to Edwards Edwards's mistreatment of his slaves. Uh nothing. And it's uh there's been several scholars who have pointed uh to uh to different pieces of Edwards's work um that and they suggest that Edwards it in their minds it's obvious that Edwards uh mistreated beat uh beat his slaves but there's really nothing um over the past uh 14 years that I've I've I've spent on this topic there's really nothing that suggests that and it's it's wild to me uh that uh there are some scholars that would suggest or even claim or assert that Edwards beat his slaves when there's really no historical evidence uh to support that that theory.

[00:12:56]But >> basically, they're just kind of arguing that this was done and since Edward lived in that time, then he probably did that same thing. But if there's no proof that that is the case, then it might also equally be the case that Edwards is kind and benevolent to the people of his household.

[00:13:13]>> Oh, absolutely. um if there was a document that that was that would be discovered that suggested that where Edwards explicitly said, "Well, I you know, I had to ask, you know, Leah or Titus for forgiveness today because I I hit them or whatever." Okay, then we have to accept that. But there's absolutely nothing out there. There's one spot in uh Edward's blank bible where he gives a commentary his commentary on Job and uh he talks about the master slave relationship and it it's very evident that he's quite uncomfortable with the topic but uh just because someone's uncomfortable with the topic doesn't necessarily mean they're mistreating their enslaved people. So to make some type of leap from someone being uncomfortable with a topic to beating their slaves, uh that's a large leap. And there are scholars like Anthony Bradley, other people like Kyle Howard who've asserted on social media say they're mo Edwards most definitely be a slaves. That simply is not true.

[00:14:11]That's misinformation and that's not doing not only um uh Edwards fairly, but it's doing church church history, you know, unjustly to suggest something that just isn't supported in the documents.

[00:14:23]>> Yeah. That basically reasons that the person is guilty until proven innocent, I suppose. Now, what do we know about Edwards's theology of slavery? Did he write any major treatises on this topic or where can we find some of his theological views as they're written out for us to to read and to study today? Is there anything?

[00:14:43]>> Sure. Yeah. He uh does not he does not write specifically about the topic of slavery except in one draft letter that we have. It's a draft letter on slavery and he gives his uh defense of of slavery. Interestingly enough, he's defending another minister in the area in New England, uh, an Armenian of all of all ministers, uh, Benjamin Doolittle, I believe, >> and, uh, he gets criticized for owning a slave. And Edwards actually defends him, an Armenian minister, and he basically lays out a brief defense as to why the the institution of slavery is okay.

[00:15:22]Uh some of Edward's views can be I guess uh can be confusing at times because he definitely in this defense denounces the slave trade. So uh he says that you know going to another going to another nation the African nations and in his words disfranchising or manstealing taking someone robbing them of their liberty and capturing them simply for the purpose of being slaves is unbiblical.

[00:15:48]He's very much against that. But he's very much for the institution of slavery as a practice. He's one of the things that an example he gives uh he says uh you know is food or drink uh a sin >> and it no it's not. But he said the abuses of food and drink lead to gluttony can lead to sin. So uh food and drink in and of in and of themselves are not a sin.

[00:16:12]>> And the same he says the same is with slavery.

[00:16:15]>> Slavery in itself is not a sin. And so therefore, but it can be abused to where it is sin. So therefore, it's not a sin to practice slavery. And so he has this very puritanical idea of slavery. It's not racially motivated. It's simply an institution handed down by God in a fallen world that people can participate in if used permissibly. I mean, if if it's per it's permissible if used properly.

[00:16:42]>> So that's Edwards's in it. Would you say that Edwards has sort of a hierarchical view of society that differs from today's strict egalitarianism? Right. So today we typically think of absolutely everybody is equal in absolutely every way. And so we flatten all hierarchies down to a flat line so that students are of the same rank and value as teachers, of the same rank and value as the principal, as parents, as administrators and so forth. In other words, we flatten every hierarchy. Whereas Edward saw the whole of society as subject to God's sovereign decree. And there were people of various hierarchies, including kings and magistrates and princes and ministers and peasants and so forth. And part of the reason why Edwards defends slavery theologically, not that we're necessarily doing that today, John, you and I, but Edwards saw God's sovereignty in all of the various hierarchies of the world, including the preeminence of the minister, who he thought to be one of the most important persons in any society, city, or or village. Do you think his hierarchical structure of God's sovereignty is part of the reason why he might have been looser on this topic than you and I might be comfortable with?

[00:18:01]>> Sure. Absolutely. Uh Edward's definitely um believed in the sovereignty of God in all things even in one station in life.

[00:18:09]Right. So if this if what it doesn't matter if someone's a king uh you know someone's who someone who is an artistician someone who is a prince a governor all the way down to someone who's a peasant or a slave your station in life this is Edward's thinking your station in life is divinely appointed by God and so for you to alleviate yourself from that position is in rebellion to God and so Edward's thinking that uh someone who is uh a slave trying to attempting to to become free was rebelling against God's divine order so to speak the hierarchy the way God has designed it.

[00:18:50]>> What do we know about the local church the Northampton church and its relation to blacks andor slaves? Were there any slaves that were actually brought into membership of the church? Were they treated as secondclass citizens? Were they allowed to participate in baptism in the Lord's supper, for instance? Has your research led you into any understanding of how the church would have received blacks?

[00:19:17]>> Sure. Yeah. Uh in Northampton, uh during the periods of the great awake, first great awakening in 1730s, 1740s, uh Native Americans, uh Africans, uh slaves, uh they were welcomed into church membership once they had converted to Christianity. But unfortunately uh they were still uh treated as secondclass citizens. Many of them or if not all of them were not allowed to uh vote um in church matters.

[00:19:45]Uh they were they were were to uh they were told to sit towards the back or in the very top in the balcony of churches.

[00:19:52]Um they were not segregated at the time as we think about segregated churches today here in the United States. uh they still were not able to um participate in some church uh church events but they're welcomed in membership. So there's that idea um of equality being pushed even before uh you know the American Revolution in the 1770s. Uh the church is already having to deal with ideas of well what is equality? Is it only spiritual? Is it all is it civil as well? What is it? And so Edwards really has to deal with that u whenever he goes to Stockbridge uh Massachusetts eventually in uh 1750.

[00:20:32]>> I'm talking today with John T. Low. He's the author of a new book, Benevolence and Bondage, just recently published by South Carolina University Press. We've already mentioned the giveaway, but we're going to continue our discussion here as we move into John, if you're willing to talk about Edwards's views as it relates to Native Americans, we would call them today. They probably would have called them Indians or even savages or something like that in Jonathan Edwards's day. What do we know about Edwards as it relates to the native peoples of the land or Indians? John?

[00:21:05]>> Uh whenever Edwards was a young boy, uh several of his family members were captured during the Indian raid uh in Deerfield, Massachusetts, and where many women, men, women, and children were uh were murdered uh by Native Americans during this time. And so he would have grown up with this idea of Indians being uh very savage to the British to the British mind. You know, not uh he says that, you know, they only act upon their wills. Uh very negative things. He would say the devil sucks their blood eventually. Um so he has a very negative outlook on uh Native Americans when he was younger. It's not until, this is what we go back, we're going back to the beginning of the episode when we talk about how someone's views evolve and change over time. So, it's not um it's not until he goes to the frontier in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, where uh his ideas of race, specifically on Native Americans, begin uh to change. Uh it's he actually has a great time there. He went from Northampton where uh he's in the elite, the white colonial elite and he whites are the majority majority and then he goes to Stockbridge where him and his family are whites but they're they're minority and they're surrounded by hundreds of uh Mohawks and Moheakans.

[00:22:26]Uh and it's there he actually uh writes to his father. He says, "Actually, you know, this is probably the best time we've had in um in in many years being out here." and he begins to refer to his Indian congregation as my people. He would say that over and over again when he would write to the Boston benefactors. He he would write whenever he would say it whenever he wrote to his father, "Hey, these are my people."

[00:22:48]>> And he would actually become their political and social advocate for a number of years while he was there to defend them from people trying to uh embezzle money from his actually his own extended family.

[00:23:01]>> Yeah. Yeah, Edwards is not the first person to work on this particular mission in Stockbridge. And my understanding is that there's kind of a distinct change in tone from the previous um person who was in charge of the Stockbridge mission to when Edwards comes in. What's your sense of Edwards's care for and even love for the people there? He you mentioned that he calls them my people. I think I recall you writing in another place as I've read some of your materials, John, that he also calls them his brothers. Is that going too far?

[00:23:33]>> No, that uh that's not He actually ends up uh you know baptizing several uh Native Americans, welcoming welcoming them into full membership. He does at least one marriage uh for uh for one couple. And uh yeah, his children end up speaking uh speaking better Native American languages than they do English.

[00:23:54]His son Jonathan Edwards Jr. would write later in his diary saying, "I never spoke English outside the home." And more often than not, you know, my my thoughts ran in Indian is what he said.

[00:24:04]And so, uh, him allowing, uh, him allowing his his children to, uh, to play and to make friends with Native Americans and even h actually ended up housing, um, a few of the Native American children inside of his home, opening up his home to, uh, someone who is quote unquote uh, savage. Um, just it it's uh, it's an indicator of how he felt about him if he you open up your home to someone. Uh so it's his views on Native Americans definitely changed uh once he came to Stockbridge to you know they're no longer you know you know the devil's children they're my people.

[00:24:42]>> That's so interesting because you might compare that by way of contrast to a person like Martin Luther whose views you might also say evolved over time but maybe more negatively. We think of Luther as being increasingly vitriolic and spiteful as he gets older. Of course, Luther has all kinds of pain.

[00:25:01]He's got all kinds of physical ailments and, you know, bodily discomfort and so forth. And we're definitely not our best selves as we get older and we're in more physical pain. But Luther seems to spit more vitriolic language at various peoples, including the Jews and so forth as he gets older. Whereas, it sounds to me like you're saying, if I'm understanding you right, that Edwards's viewpoint is actually softening as he's getting more mature in Christ. He's being sanctified day by day. He's learning to work with and bes and beside the native peoples and he's actually coming to find a place where he loves them in his heart. I don't want to put w words in your mouth, but we we both know that one of Edwards's desires as well as that of Solomon's daughter, his grandfather, was to see the Native Americans reached with the gospel and ultimately have their lives and hearts and even their culture transformed for the sake of Christian virtue and and Christian values. John, as you've studied this whole viewpoint of Edwards on race, would you say that the trajectory in Edwards is towards maturity and a greater love and benevolence or would you say something else?

[00:26:09]>> No, 100%. I think he uh I think him growing as a Christian even whenever he's 57 uh 58 years old uh is that you know m he he was humble enough to know uh when he was wrong about something and I think that his maturity w gave way and erased much of his ethnosentrism I guess you would say towards Native Americans because one of the things he could have done when he was in Stockbridge is give the same give the same sermon in English, expect the Native Americans to pick up on the vocabulary, the phrasiology, etc. But instead, he wrote sermons directly for the American Indians. And he wanted to he wanted to cater his sermons to their thinking. So he wanted to reach them not just, you know, he didn't want to he didn't expect them just to be or to become quote unquote white, but he wanted to reach them on their on their uh cultural level. So, I think that he most definitely grew as a Christian and his heart had had softened toward uh the negative ideas that he had towards Native Americans.

[00:27:19]>> May that be true for all of us. I wanted to finish up with just a couple more questions here, John, before we wind down for the day. But Edwards's own son and some of his students later take his viewpoint and carry it even a little bit further. What what can we say about sort of the seed ideas that are present in Edwards's thought and how that was carried out into the early abolitionist movement by some of his followers?

[00:27:48]Anything interesting there?

[00:27:50]>> Yeah. Um, so for uh so for Jonathan Edwards in in his commentary, well actually it's not his commentary in charity and its fruits uh he hones in on the word love agape right and he thinks you know it's probably better served or rendered here as charity because love is not simply an affection but it is a it's an actionable affection, right?

[00:28:14]>> So it it it's it's charity. Well, uh, Hopkins takes this this idea of benevolence this or love and he says, well, in order to maximize >> in order to maximize uh benevolence or love to God, I must be disinterested in myself to the maximum. So I can whenever I act, whenever I show love, I cannot have nothing can be in it for me. It has to be in it for someone else. and and for love to be maximized, it has to be for people who need it most. And who needs it most in the 18th century?

[00:28:49]Enslaved Africans. And so Edwards Jr., Joseph Bellamy, Samuel Hopkins, the majority of the new divinity uh men, they take Edwards's uh doctrines of benevolence and they say, well, if we need to act upon this, if we're going to be true ch truly charitable Christians, then we need to alleviate those most oppressed in our societies, our society.

[00:29:10]we need to emancipate uh all the enslaved people in not only in New England but in the in the nation. And so they take this theology of love and fuel it for their abolitionism.

[00:29:21]John, what can we say about those who would reject Edwards entirely because of some of the things that we've talked about today. Same thing too with guys like George Whitfield and so forth who also worked with uh and over slaves at periods in his life. Should we reject these men's theology entirely because they differ from a modern mindset on this or should we embrace their theology wholesale? What what do you say about those who would say we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak?

[00:29:52]>> I think there's a danger uh on both sides of the spectrum. Uh if you completely embrace someone's idea, then you're kind of uh following someone else, not Christ blindly, and you also embrace their faults.

[00:30:06]um which always uh eventually leads to sin. Uh if you end up throwing out Edwards, Edwards completely because of his participation in slavery or you disagree with something else in his theology, uh then uh you are throwing the baby out a little throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Um you're losing uh you're losing a a deep well of uh theological uh theological input um and encouragement really. Um, and I think it's a very pr I think it would be a very prideful thing to say, well, we need to throw someone out simply because of uh of one sin. Um, because then you would be saying, well, we couldn't follow anyone and you couldn't even follow yourself because you yourself are sinful. So, you know, that leads uh to nowhere. So, I think there are dangers on both sides. Um but I think the happy medium or the solution would be take what is profitable from Edwards and do not embrace what is uh what's un unbiblical I guess you would say or something that you disagree with.

[00:31:11]>> Yeah that's fantastic advice and thankfully with Jonathan Edwards there is a ton of things that are profitable for us. Well we've had a great conversation with John T. Lo today again he's the author of Benevolence and Bondage a new book. John, you don't happen to have a copy of that sitting right next to you that you could hold that up for us, do you? Of course you do. There it is right there. So, you're going to want to go over to amazon.com and grab this book. To make it easy for you, I'm going to post a link right in the description of this video. So, you can just toggle right down and click on that link and buy it on Amazon. Also want to mention one more time while we're hawking our wares that the Jonathan Edwards study Bible is on pre-sale. You can also grab that. There will be a link below. John Low, thank you so much for talking with us today.

[00:31:55]Before I let you go, one more question for you. What are you going to work on next now that your book is out? You got any major projects coming?

[00:32:03]>> Uh, nothing major that I can talk about.

[00:32:05]Uh, I have few I do have a few articles uh that have just been published for the America's uh 250th, but I am working uh on some stuff concerning the Great Awakening Edwards. Uh so stay tuned. Uh hopefully it'll be good.

[00:32:20]Thank you so much, John. You've been a great friend and encourager over the years. If you're interested in the works of John Low, please do follow him on X or Twitter. And again, watch out for that book giveaway. You're going to have to follow John on Twitter and then retweet or comment, I suppose, on the link to this video. Thank you so much for checking in everybody. Very glad to have you today and we will talk to you all later.

[00:32:46]>> Thanks, Matt.