Bob vs Visitor - Not Understanding Faith, Christianity or Free Will - Speakers Corner

[00:00:13][singing] [music] [singing] Bob.

[00:00:26]>> I'm Jim.

[00:00:27]>> It's not my real name. It's just a pseudonym I use.

[00:00:29]>> Okay. I'm >> So, >> do you mind if I talk to the crowd when I talk?

[00:00:34]>> Oh, Bob. No, not at all.

[00:00:36]>> Right. It would it would be helpful if you try try and talk to the furthest person that you can see and that helps.

[00:00:41]>> I'm not a speaker. I'm not done this before. talk about. What I do know is that 72% of all people who worship, whether it be in a synagogue as a Jew, whether it be as a Christian in a chapel or being a Hindu in a temple, whether it be a seek in their building, 72% of all people follow the religion of the state they were born in. So when we talk about free will, where's the free will when statistically most people are following everything? And when you said about religion in this country, >> can I address that point first?

[00:01:21]>> Yeah.

[00:01:21]>> Right. But so this is where I said you weren't listening because I accept the argument, ladies and gentlemen, that people do follow the religion of the state that they're born into. The state of the United Kingdom follows the religion of self. And lo and behold, most people in this country are adherence to the religion of self, ladies and gentlemen. And so he's absolutely right to make that observation >> where let me let me let me finish before you reply. The point where we part company is his understanding of free will.

[00:01:57]It seems to me that he's assuming a lockian understanding of free will. This idea that free will is connected to choice. I don't believe that that's what free will is or what free will is connected to. I don't believe that you are free because you have choices. I believe that you are free because you know the truth. And if you don't know the truth, doesn't matter how many choices you have, you're not free. And so for me, free will is about expose freedom rather is about exposing people to the truth regardless of what the religion of their state is. Over to you.

[00:02:42]>> Okay. Firstly, I don't even think there is such a thing as free will. One, we're born with a body and a brain that acts in certain ways. And then we have the environment that leads us to do certain things. And that environment would lead us to do becoming a sequel. we're born in the Punjab. If we're born in Israel, becoming a becoming a Jew and so on. So there's to say there's free will in itself. It's been debated many times free will and it's been accepted by people from most walks of life that there's very little free will. Even to the extent if you say to someone in the UK, what do you have for breakfast?

[00:03:20]They're unlikely to say they had a Korean breakfast. I do mean because they've had years of having a syrup at breakfast and it goes on to the same sort of culture in into their faith system or non-faith system.

[00:03:33]>> Do you want me to reply to that bit or the there is no religion of self?

[00:03:37]>> No, there's no religion of self.

[00:03:38]>> Which one? I'll reply to both if I it's all right. Okay. Right. So, let me reply to both. So, ladies and gentlemen, let's be clear. There is Let's be Let's be clear, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, he's he's got the right to film. Everybody's got the right to film. Yeah. All right, bro. Relax. Relax. No one's trying to shoe you off. So, ladies and gentlemen, let's and also just remember she is a lady. So, let let's just be let's just be clear. Let's just be clear. Ladies and gentlemen, the religion of self is when you organize your state, your society, your culture, your ethics, your spiritual practices around your own ego and around the validation of your own ego. That's what I mean by the religion of self and it is an observable fact that that is what our society is doing and it we're even building laws around it. So it's an observable fact that there is a religion of self right? It's also studied it's also studied in academia and I'm telling you as a religious studies student it is studied academically. That's where the term comes from religion of self. It is a fact. It's there. It's studied sociologically.

[00:04:50]Now to the question of free will. I agree we need to think more carefully about what free will is because I agree with you free will is not just about choices and how you make choices is not just like oh I woke up this morning and I decided to do X cuz I think we've seen I think we've seen ladies and gentlemen I think we've seen through the study of psychology that your there is a a a choice making machine in the brain that is much deeper than your conscious mind.

[00:05:26]And that decision making part of the brain follows a story that you are more or less aware of. The more you are aware of it, the more ability you have to control the choices you make. Which is why freedom is connected to truth and not to choice. Because your choices are not made by your conscious will. And that's been demonstrated in psychological experiments that monitor the brain and the decision making capacity of your will. But and that's why lots of religions talk about meditation and knowing yourself because in that self-nowledge you create you gain greater control over the narrative that makes the decisions for you and the narrative that you have is what decides whether you're free. So I agree with you. I dismiss lock and freedom, but I don't believe in determinism, which is where it sounds like you are.

[00:06:35]Lots of lots of points to pick up there.

[00:06:38]Um, free will and faith.

[00:06:45]So, you've used the word fact quite a few times when you've talked about Christianity, your your personal beliefs. How much is a personal belief in a faith and how much of what you believe in is empirical fact?

[00:06:57]>> Right.

[00:06:58]>> If I want it, if I drop that to the ground, >> yeah, >> I can prove empirically that gravity takes that to the ground. You prove to me when because you talk about facts and Jesus and all the rest of it. Where are the facts that back up your argument?

[00:07:14]Empirical facts or is it like some friends of mine would say, it's faith.

[00:07:20]You can't prove it. It's a faith.

[00:07:23]>> Right. So, ladies and gentlemen, the layman's understanding of science I'm going to let slide. I'm not going to pick I'm not going to split hairs over his misdescription of gravity. Um, but ladies and gentlemen, but ladies and gentlemen, let's be clear. There is a a common misunderstanding of what faith is amongst people who are not Christians or who have not really studied faith. Faith is not believing in things that have no facts. The the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is a matter of faith for the Christian, but it is also an empirically established historical fact that is indisputable by every historian that ever studies it.

[00:08:13]Ladies and gentlemen, now ladies and gentlemen, faith when properly understood is not about believing in things when there are no facts to back them up. Faith understood by the Christian is trusting is trusting in the one that you know.

[00:08:35]It's trust. It's a relationship of trust. That's what faith actually is.

[00:08:41]And everybody practices faith. Even this gentleman will practice faith. He will have faith in the people that he loves.

[00:08:50]He will have faith that the cars will observe the red light when he's crossing the road. He will have faith that there is not a bomb on the bus when he climbs on the bus. And he will have faith that when he switches on his cooker, there will not be a gas explosion.

[00:09:08]People work by trust all the time.

[00:09:11]Christians expand their act of trust to include the supernatural being that they encounter which is the Holy Spirit's inspiration of the Lord Jesus Christ and the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ that we encounter both non-impirically and empirically within the life of the church ladies and gentlemen. But let's be clear, faith is not believing in things without facts. That is the ignoramus's definition of faith. It is not a Christian definition of faith.

[00:09:52]>> It's a pure choice. You'll choose to believe it. There's no empirical fact.

[00:09:56]And when you mention the crucifixion, the first written book of the Bible accepted by um uh theologians and non- theologians is Mark. And in Mark which was wrote 80 years accepted by all all walks of life was wrote 80 years after the so-called cru crucifixion it's not mentioned once you tell me in the you tell me in the book of Mark where it's mentioned about crucifixion >> can I repeat just finish so the further we go on if the fake fight took place here >> the people who seen it immediately say something they tell someone else they tell someone else and they'll tell someone else >> and then as the years go on that that that story becomes something completely different and you've got to be careful.

[00:10:40]>> The webinar will approach the >> Sorry, no, I'm talking to him. Please don't be rude.

[00:10:45]>> When you talk about empirical facts and faith, this is the difference.

[00:10:51]Lots of Christians who I know who would broadly put themselves on on the left would say that it's faith. They can't prove it. They can't empirically, scientifically prove it. they choose to believe it and all the experiences people might have what you call anecdotal.

[00:11:09]>> Can I can I reply?

[00:11:10]>> You can reply.

[00:11:10]>> Right. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to demonstrate you to you something that is too common in this world, which is people who read a little and think they know a lot. Let me correct everything that he just said step by step. Firstly, the oldest book of the Bible is the book of Job, not the book of Mark. And the oldest book of the New Testament is not the Gospel of Mark. It is either the epistle to the Galatians or it is one the first letter to the Thessalonians.

[00:11:47]And that is the academic opinion. What he confused in his ignorance, don't interrupt. Just cuz you're ignorant, don't interrupt.

[00:11:57]Right.

[00:11:58]>> No, don't interrupt. You're interrupting and you'll complain when I start doing to you. This is your first warning.

[00:12:05]Secondly, ladies and gentlemen, he has confused the fact that amongst the gospels, academics say that the Gospel of Mark is the first. So there's the correction in to the initial statement.

[00:12:21]But now let me correct the other thing that he said because the other thing that he said was the Gospel of Mark records nowhere that Jesus was crucified. Put your hand up if you heard him say that. Gospel of Mark doesn't record the crucifixion of Jesus. I'm going to quote to you the Gospel of Mark.

[00:12:40]>> Everybody listen up.

[00:12:42]>> Then they brought him to the place of Goltha which is translated place of skull. They tried to give him wine mixed with myrr, but he did not take it. AND THEY CRUCIFIED HIM.

[00:12:58]>> So he just said the Gospel of Mark does not record the crucifixion of Mark and literally just quoted Mark and he's still saying [laughter] he's still saying that the Gospel of Mark doesn't record the crucifixion. Let me just say, let me just say, ladies and gentlemen, we've got a cultural problem in our country. It is the problem of entitled opinion. Just because you think something doesn't mean you know something. And I encourage you to have more humility than you are about to witness in this gentleman here. Go on.

[00:13:41]>> So my question, no. Are you talking to me or to her?

[00:13:45]>> Right. Ladies and gentlemen, since he has stopped. No, you're not. No, you're not, C. No. Right. So, let me ask a question to this man.

[00:13:55]>> I HAVE JUST quoted to you that if you want to have a convers heckling like a child. Stop heckling. Stop heckling like a child or I will just ignore you for the rest of the day. Now ladies and gentlemen, now ladies AND GENTLEMEN, HERE'S MY QUESTION.

[00:14:15]>> DO YOU ACCEPT that you were wrong in saying that Mark does not record the crucifixion when it is right there in front of you?

[00:14:24]>> Are you wrong?

[00:14:25]>> Yeah, I do accept.

[00:14:26]>> Good. Okay. Well done.

[00:14:27][applause and cheering] >> No. No. Right, ladies and gentlemen. No.

[00:14:35]Let's be clear. You're either talking to me or you're talking to her to talk to carry on.

[00:14:41]>> Right. So now now now it's over to you to reply. But if you start talking to her, I'm just going back to my conversation with the crowd.

[00:14:48]>> Okay, I will reply.

[00:14:49]>> Right. Go on. Reply.

[00:14:51]>> How long have you been coming to this place?

[00:14:56]>> Uh 10 years. 10 years.

[00:14:58]>> Some humility, right? 10 years.

[00:15:00]>> 10 years. Yeah. And has your um Christianity changed over those 10 years?

[00:15:08]>> No, my Christianity has remained the same.

[00:15:09]>> Exactly the same.

[00:15:10]>> Yeah.

[00:15:11]>> Why we let me let me let me just come to the point. You you've you've made arguments about the Christian faith >> when you don't understand even how Christians understand faith.

[00:15:24]>> Right. So I'd encourage your interpretation.

[00:15:27]>> No, that is every Christian's interpretation.

[00:15:29]>> Other Christians would agree with me.

[00:15:31]No, they wouldn't.

[00:15:31]>> They do.

[00:15:32]>> They're either going to they're going to be ignorant then because the biblical >> that's their opinion.

[00:15:37]>> Look, Christianity, let me show you.

[00:15:38]>> Can I reply? Let me go. Christianity, like a lot of things, is a broad church, right? People in America shoot people outside abortion clinics and call themselves Christians. Other Christians feed the poor on the streets. There's a whole broad church just like there is in every sort of philosophy or religion.

[00:15:58]So, you're coming from this very sort of um to me it's a it's almost like a right-wing position of this is fact and you're all going to hell.

[00:16:10]>> Right.

[00:16:10]>> I'll tell you my opinion on hell. My opinion on here hell is this right?

[00:16:16]If heaven's full of Christians, I'm glad I'm going to hell in the main.

[00:16:23]That saying, I know loads of good Christians, but you you seem to have this level of um arrogance that's that borders on fascism to me. That's what it seems like.

[00:16:34]>> Right. As I said, >> whereas they would >> Can I reply? Can I reply? As I said, there is a danger in our culture of people who read a little and think they know a lot. Having certainty in your belief is not fascism. Ladies and gentlemen, communists are not fascists, but they absolutely certain of their beliefs. Progressives are not fascists, but they absolutely are certain of what they believe. ladies and gentlemen. And throwing out the stick, oh, you're like a fascist is a bit like someone playing the race card in a debate when race was never brought up, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:17:16]It's a way of trying to malign and to label your opponents. And it is a it is a typical scummy tactic of the left, ladies and gentlemen. And and the point is, ladies and gentlemen, I challenge his ignorance and the certainty of his ignorance. And what he's doing is because I'm challenging the certainty of his ignorance, he's throwing out words like right-wing and fascist in the hope that this mudslinging will somehow carry argument. It's embarrassing and it is childish and it is the rhetorical tool of fools. Ladies and gentlemen, what I encourage you to have, what I encourage you to have is just a sense of the fact that you don't know as much as you think you do. You might know you might know some Christians, but Christianity is and I'm going that's this is your second warning about interruptions. If you just interrupt me like you are doing, I will interrupt you. I will interrupt you whenever I want. and then you will complain when I do.

[00:18:25]>> Right now, ladies and gentlemen, >> let's be clear. Just because you know some are Christians and just because those Christians have told you something doesn't mean that what they told you is accurate.

[00:18:38]I was speaking to someone in the Anglican church today who thinks you can be a Freemason and a Christian. I was speaking to an Anglican a couple of weeks ago who was saying, ladies and gentlemen, that they didn't believe in Paul's teachings.

[00:18:57]>> Just because someone says they're a Christian doesn't mean they know anything about Christianity. Because ignorance is not something that's unique to unbelievers. You can have ignorant Christians as well.

[00:19:11]>> Christianity is not a democracy. It's not about well you've got your opinion right I will now interrupt you whenever I want. It is not ladies and gentlemen.

[00:19:20]It is not ladies and gentlemen about you've got your opinion and I've got my opinion. It works from authority and you weigh your opinion against the authority and your opinion either can stand or not when weighted against the authority. And the Bible does describe what faith is.

[00:19:43]And it is not what you or your imaginary Christian friends have said that it is.

[00:19:50]Over to you.

[00:19:51]>> You prove my point.

[00:19:54]>> One sec. Prove your point. It's a broad church.

[00:19:57]>> No, I didn't say that.

[00:19:59]>> I did not say, "OH, WAIT. LOOK, IS HE COMPLAINING?" Immediately he complains about me interrupting, but I warned him twice about interrupting me when I was speaking.

[00:20:12]>> I'm sorry, but you lost the right to do that when you interrupted me three times.

[00:20:17]>> Go on.

[00:20:18]>> I had about I had about 10 seconds there. It's probably time to shake hand and say goodbye.

[00:20:22]>> Yeah. Take care. Bye-bye.

[00:20:28]>> No, thank you.

[00:20:30]>> Right, let me just describe. Go on, sir.

[00:20:33]>> I just want to listen to you.

[00:20:36]>> Okay, fair enough.

[00:20:37]>> You want to have a conversation?

[00:20:38]>> Okay, no worries. No worries.

[00:20:40]>> Why didn't you Why didn't you respond with the easiest question? Are these PE people at Speaker's Corner, these witnesses years down the line? Are they willing to be boiled in oil and to be tortured and die for claiming that they heard something? You should have said that.

[00:20:56]>> Right, ladies and gentlemen. Right, ladies and gentlemen, we need to cultivate a culture of martyrdom within the church. If your church, if your church is not cultivating a spirit of martyrdom within you, then your church is letting you down. If your church is not inspiring you to be willing to die for the faith, your church is letting you down. If your church is not calling you to fight for the Christian faith in every legal way that you can, your church is letting you down. This kind of spirituality that's gooey goopy and all lovey lovey and hippie and liberist and soy milk Christianity. That is not the kind of Christianity that will grow or survive in this country. In fact, all the evidence shows that it is dying.

[00:21:52]What we need are serious churches that recruit serious Christians. CHRISTIANS WILLING TO DIE FOR their faith and willing to fight for their faith legally in every way that they can. That's the kind of church that will grow. AND IF YOUR CHURCH IS NOT cultivating that kind of Christianity, your church is part of the problem.

[00:22:16]I [singing] don't Yeah.

[00:22:32]Heat.

[00:22:37][singing] >> [music] [singing]