The Apostle (1997) is a Southern Gothic character study written, directed, and starring Robert Duvall, who delivers what critics consider his career-best performance. The film follows Sonny, a charismatic but flawed Pentecostal preacher who murders a man at his children's Little League game, flees to Louisiana, and builds a new congregation from scratch. Unlike typical Hollywood portrayals of Southern evangelism that reduce religious figures to frauds, the film treats Sonny's faith with earnestness and empathy, showing how religion can serve as both a vehicle for genuine community building and a psychological tool for self-reinvention. The film's nuanced portrayal of faith as a complex force that can coexist with moral failings earned Duvall an Oscar nomination but was overlooked by the Academy, which instead awarded Jack Nicholson for As Good as It Gets.
Is This Robert Duvall's Best Performance? | The Apostle | Four PlayAñadido:
The Apostle is a movie you may not have heard of, but in our Robert Duval arc here, it presents a really unique take on the American South. This is particularly fascinating because it was written by Robert Duval. It was directed by Robert Duval and it stars Robert Duval. And we're talking about Robert Duval because unfortunately he passed away recently, but is one of the great character actors in American cinema.
This is an arc that features many films that I I had not seen any of these films to be clear.
>> No, most seen. Yeah, >> these are definitely not Robert Duval's most famous films. Let's put it that way. And this one in particular though was selected because it is his entire vision and it's a film that he wanted to get made, struggled to get made, delivers a brilliant performance in. So Richard, why did you select this film?
Uh, I I wanted to bring The Apostle to the table simply because I think it is Robert Duval's best performance. And I think when you factor in the fact that he wrote and directed it as well, it really will underline to anybody that maybe didn't know about Robert Duval's talents, this this is it laid bare. I think it's a fascinating film as well because you very often, you know, in the era of the righteous gemstones, you don't really get a lot of looks at religion in the south and and and and with a pure and empathetic heart. A lot of it, I mean, listen, it's America where, you know, the the dark side of the American dream is abuse of power will get you what you want in any field.
And therefore, you know, you you will get these evangelical characters that exploit the faith of people so they can have a private jet. But that this this isn't a movie about that. This is a movie about faith and how it brings people together and how the church is more than a place to just go and express your faith or as a preacher to proitize.
It's about community. It's about bringing people together and it plays it down the middle with that. it. There's no bait and switch, you know, whatever you want to say about the character Robert Dubal plays in this. He's a [ __ ] true believer. Very flawed guy, but a true believer. And that to me is why I think it's a fascinating movie because Hollywood doesn't it doesn't let the South have anything really. And this is from a time actually when you had movies like this and Sling Blade by Billy Bob Thornton where the briefest and you probably a time to kill as well.
Um, you know, you probably had this brief window where people were looking at the South with like fresh eyes and realized that these communities weren't just hillbillies and hicks and racists that they were fully formed communities with their own identity and just honest to goodness people, you know, and it's like we've kind of gone back the other way now where every every, you know, person in the South is a racist Republican. We have to believe in that boogeyman. It's not true. I've lived in the South. I've experienced it. I've been down to places like this. I've seen the churches, you know, and um and I I I found everybody to be welcoming and wonderful and warm. If you're hungry, they feed you. Uh if you're thirsty, they give you a cup of sweet tea.
Southern hospitality is a real thing.
And so, you combine all of that together in my mind. And I think this is an important film for people to see. And I think I think I think it's what a wonderful tribute to Robert Duval. I almost wish we'd done this last cuz I'm not so sure the other films on the list might reach the heights. But >> if you if you had to watch one Robert Duval film that wasn't like a cameo or a character piece, it's absolutely this.
>> By the way, I think in both regards as well, here's one thing I wasn't used to.
My own actual like pattern recognition of Hollywood films andor like just how you expect like what sort of person would write a Hollywood film. Normally you would expect on either front either the fact it's about Christianity evangelism as well but of all of them or about the south that it would come with some like cynical like oh I'm going to like lampoo how silly they are now obviously fake it all. No if anything I agree what you said there Richard one of the most brilliant things about this film is first of all it doesn't actually have like a telegraphed plot that you can know where it's going. I think you'll actually have a very hard time guessing where this movie is going and what like by it'll take you a while to sort of figure out what the core of the movie is cuz if you watch the beginning part the first hour could be a movie you buy by by some like coastal elite person who's like an atheist or of a different religion who just thinks that this is all like for country Bobkins and they're all idiots. No, actually what's beautiful I thought about this film is simultaneously they show you through all the scenes where the guy's on his own or talking to himself. Like he he clearly believes all this [ __ ] Like it's actually treated completely straight up in a very earnest way as well. And even though I agree, Richard, it shows he is clearly a flawed person. There are times in the movie he like partially lies or does things that are like duplicitus, but it's you can tell he's doing it along those lines that have that where like essentially he thinks that's justified because it's real, if you know what I mean.
sort of like helping God get along as it were and solve little issues. And I'll give you an example actually of what I actually think shows the heart of this film is really earnest and honest which is actually the Billy Bob Font and cameo because you would if you see the first part of that it's just a traditional enemy of like a guy doesn't like this church and he has to even beats him up on the grass when he comes back later again I buy that that's like both things at the same time. Yeah, obviously it's a way to get out of the issue of him destroying the church, but I it also does seem like it's a real legitimate like he's helping this guy have like a conversion and it's showing that even what would be a traditional like cardboard villain of like here's the guy who's against you. The idea is it's showing like this way this movie actually makes me think deval at a very minimal must have like a great respect for religion if not he was like lowkey religious himself because it's showing like what the whole movie is almost about how people are flawed but the value that like religion plays in their life but not in a as you say not in just the past the collection play I want a new yacht way there's that as well but I think part of that also is because for other people it is real like this like that's why that's why that territory is available for predators to come into I actually thought that was even the best part of the movie Like at the end, by the way, I even kept thinking, why is he like delaying this getaway? Is this going to be like, you know, some [ __ ] rocky [ __ ] or like, you know, escape to victory? Are they going to like smuggle him? No, the whole point is like that's that final scene sort of explains the movie. This guy was just like that in his whole life, bro. Wherever he was, that is where he was that he was just doing his religious [ __ ] there and then he knows because he's obviously had like a a checkered past like he right time to move on to the next thing. In this case, prison. And then the best thing is I hope people didn't turn off on the credits cuz there's like it's not like they would take a long time but they immediately have a credit scene where he's preaching on the chain gang like this guy for real just believes it bro like it's actually there's something sweet about this film isn't there I kept thinking there was going to be a cynicism around any of there isn't it's actually a really just honest film it's [ __ ] dope. Yeah, agreed. Monty, are are you are you about to undercut?
>> I'll give you I'll give you one last thing as well. Here's one last morsel for you. If you are someone who's approaching this film and for whatever reason you bounce off some of the ideas and the bigger P here's what all I'll say for you. Here's how you can reset the filters. If instead of this being called the apostle and it's a film in the south of America where you might have all these preconceptions and prejudices. If instead what we did right now is we were going it's like a insert name of trendy Asian could be Korean or Japanese director and we said they've got a beautiful film about Buddhism about how some of the monks are actually like alcoholics but at the same time they really believe in it and they go into their community. You'd all you'd watch that and go oh it's incredible.
Yeah. All the laying they all so don't just because it's just some Christian stuff and the idea that like he he is clearly a flawed person by the way.
Don't just take the idea he's selfish to mean that the whole thing's like a [ __ ] straw man. I actually thought this was a very developed film. That's one thing I liked about a lot of depth to a lot of the characters. In fact, even the ones that look like they were going to be the one note characters tend to have more to them. Even the Walter Gogggins thing. I was going to say in the movie like he barely gets a chance to act, does he? He does by the end goes to all [ __ ] gam.
>> Gets a great scene.
>> I Walter Gogggins too. It's funny to see him so young.
>> That's why I didn't tell you he was in it because I wanted you to be genuinely shocked when he turned up.
>> Yeah, sure.
>> I was watching it with my wife and she's like, "Who's that?" I said, "It's really young." It's just like, "Holy shit."
>> So, and also you guys, you know, Walton Gogggins has been pretty noticeable recently. I mean, he's always been an excellent actor, right? But because of The White Lotus and Fallout, like, and he's >> think what you will about both of those shows, his performances in both of them are excellent on individual level. Like, he's the best part of Fallout, hands down. Um, and you know, if you haven't seen the scene in Fallout, what it's him and Sam Rockwell, uh, or the scene in White Lotus, I think it's him and Sam Rockwell.
>> Um, if you haven't seen that, >> all the memes came from >> with all the go watch it because both of them are phenomenal. Um, >> but anyway, uh, I think this movie is really interesting and it's I think it's very interesting to think about and discuss and it's I would say deceptively simple. There's a lot of layers to the character in this and I think that was excellent for Robert Dubal to write and think about and portray. My issues with this film come at the end where I feel like it majorly over eggs the pudding and I was just kind of laughing at it by by the end of the film. We'll get to what the end is, but I do want to talk uh briefly about >> just kind of the narrative arc here because there's going to be a lot of people who kind of need a refresher. We don't always do the summary, but in this one, I think we can do it very quickly.
And it is basically this. There's a guy, his nickname is Sunny. His real name is Ulysus F. Dwey. And the reason I bring that up is because it becomes a pseudonym later. So, it is actually important, but everybody calls him Sunny, right?
>> And he is a a charismatic preacher. He does the what you think of typically I would say as black preaching or African-American style preaching and it shows in the beginning of the film that indeed he was part of a black congregation growing up or majority black congregation in the south where he learned uh this style of preaching and it's mentioned in the film where people said oh I I heard you and I thought you were black um because of this would be much more >> uh this would be much more in keeping the gospel style churches. Um, >> not done like that scene in the Elvis movie, by the way. He's what? It's not done like that, guys. Don't worry. It It's just mentioned in passing, >> right?
>> Yeah. It it is a a very compelling and theatrical version of preaching that brings people in and and it is, I would say, a uniquely American style of, you know, I didn't come my mother, for example, is a Presbyterian minister. So I I am familiar with a much more you know stoic intellectual style of Christianity and this is this is much more about the emotion and the experience and the kind of the response in it.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's about it's vibes preaching. It's vibes preaching. Yeah.
>> I mean it's even implied that when you start saying all stuff really fast you're not it's on a stream of consciousness, isn't it? you're not totally control of what you're saying and you just say certain lines over and over again, you know, >> it's it's half a musical performance, right? Um, you know, it's it's like rap or or spoken word poetry, right? Uh, and so, you know, this is the kind of preaching that he does and he's in Texas in Fort Worth that we find out later on.
And he has a wife and his wife is cheating on him. She's having an affair with a younger minister who is a youth minister. He catches her in the act and then he uh, you know, ask kind of in a very weird scene, and there's a lot of great and weird scenes in this film, um, asks her to pray with him instead of getting mad and tries to reconcile. She refuses him. We never get the information about what was the cause of their broken relationship, but I'm sure we're going to talk about that and infer what that could have been.
>> So, anyway, uh, the the relationship goes on. She basically is him out of his own congregation, holds a secret vote where he's voted out as the minister of the church. So, not only has he lost his marriage, lost his two kids, he's lost his job, and his his kind of meaning for his life because he doesn't have much going on, as we find out, besides religion. Uh, and then he is at a baseball game, his children's baseball game, where his wife and the man she is cheating on him with are, and he gets into an argument, ends up hitting Horus, the other preacher, in the head with a baseball bat. Horus goes into a coma, later dies, and he goes on the lamb. He flees to small town Louisiana and uh basically makes himself useful in this itty bitty southern town and over time slowly builds up a congregation, finds another retired preacher and takes over an old church there, renovates it himself, becomes part of the fabric of this community, starts preaching on the radio. uh and slowly, you know, builds up a new church that he's preaching in.
The people love him. Um they enjoy the community he creates. He seems like he's making real inroads into the town. His then ex-wife hears him preaching on the radio, calls the police, says, "This is where he is." The police come at the end and uh arrest him for homicide because at this point uh the man has died in the coma. So >> uh that's where the story comes from. It is very much >> spoiler, he's on a chain gun at the He's found guilty.
>> He's on a chain chain gang still. He's falling out.
>> Yeah. Jesus did not help him beat the king. It's got to be said to be fair.
Just to make it clear, >> which would that would have sucked by the way would have destroyed the whole movie if he got away with it.
>> That's not even the premise of the film to me. Like if anything, this character if he had another scene would just explain like the Lord needed me to come here now to preach you gentlemen, you know, and I'm going to make a church inside the [ __ ] prison or something.
>> Yeah, that guy had so preach Jesus to to you.
>> Don't you find that an interesting detail too of the movie? That's another thing. Like I say, I've I've been I've been on this trip recently because I've just realized I've seen so many films over my life that involve things like religion or magic power. But then whenever you watch it, it's so obviously written by someone who doesn't believe those are real things. So they always have to put in the idea that even in secret like secretly a fraud even or the idea that they can't even conceive of the idea that it would work. Like they'll be trying to like use physical evidence to show that like the demon didn't exist. Like what what do you what what would that even be? The reason this treats it as if it's real is because this character does have the vibe of like wherever I am this I'm just supposed to be here to spread the word and sort of connect and also is it one of the coolest things this is why it's a masterclass of acting is it's the way that he's able to almost like that famous thing from the Bible about like I I am everything to all men or whatever like the idea whoever you meet you meet them where they're at. He's amazing at that this character. Like his charisma with every person he just meets is incredible. And he's got his own sort of like mythology like a lot of these people do of like I'm being sent by the Lord to you to meet you for some reason.
It's why actually I do take that thing with the Billy Bob Thornton guy at the end is like legit. Yeah. It started out on some fraught path like that sort of in a weird way the Billy Bob thought guy was also seeking out someone like him.
It's kind of true.
>> Yeah. I mean I mean look uh I I think as one of the beautiful details about about the film is I mean he quite explicitly says when he meets the um other preacher uh brother brother Blackwell um who was played by the coach in Rudy right the great John Beasley passed away a couple of years ago I think um he says like I I I don't know why I'm on the path I'm on you know Satan has pushed me, you know, Satan has come into my life many, many times, but I believe God has guided me here and guided me here to you. And because it's such a potentially like it's a very con artisty kind of thing to say, you know, the retired preacher is cynical initially. And he says to him, he says, "Listen, I'mma keep my eye on you. You keep your eye out. You can keep your eye on me. We and Jesus will keep our eye on both of us and we'll all all three of us will watch out for Satan. Right.
>> I tell you what, I'm going to keep my eye on you and the Lord will keep his eye on both of us and we all three keep our eye for the devil.
>> All right.
>> And and and so it's Yeah, it's Oh, this movie is full of great lines. And um basically what they then do is they enter into a a very it's not fraught but it's a very it's a stated I am watching you. I've we've had con it's come this way before using faith for profit for personality. And honestly you think this is where it's going. Like >> yeah it looks like they're going to have the reveal in the last arc, doesn't it?
Yeah.
>> Yeah. But but it isn't. Sunny just loves to build churches. He loves him some Jesus. He loves spreading the word of Jesus wherever he goes. He wants to create a place where people can come together and worship the Lord. And he does it. And so obviously over time, I mean, you know, by the way, he proves himself as undeniable like to to all of the congregation to this former preacher. It's just really nice that actually there isn't a rug pull.
>> Oh, no. and and and obviously when he has the go at the end I think in a way even though he is a murderer and a womanizer and an implied wife beater like it's sad but also it's like it's an essential component of the the the thought process of you know we're all sinners >> but but g Jesus will forgive you and he will put you where you need to be in a moment in time and so that post-title scene of him preaching on the chain gang that is where he's meant to be and those are the men he's meant to be preaching to and redeeming.
>> And again, there's there's no rugpull.
>> I mean, I was a bit worried when he came out in that beautiful white suit to try and get his church back and win some votes. I was like, "Oh no, Sunny's going to be, you know, he's going to be >> that detail you're saying like obviously if you're paying attention, you catch him in a lie very quickly, which is like halfway through the movie when he meets the black guy who's like the fishing guy, which first he meets in town."
Well, obviously that's where he got the info, didn't he? about the Blackwell person, right? But he did say that to the Blackwell person. He says like the Lord sent me here for a dream. Like here's what's weird about that. Even though that is clearly a lie. You see it on camera. It is like he should have just mentioned I heard it from that one.
Like that's an example of where you have to understand that like religion interacts with mythology. So a lot of what he's doing actually is like mythologizing his own life and his own path to be this like religious experience, right? It's obviously how he processes what's going on. But then also if you take it, look, obviously this is still a lie. If you take it in like an abstract sense, to him that is God sending you to that person. Like why else would I meet this random guy who's fishing on the side? Talk to him and suddenly within five minutes he's told me about a guy who seems like he needs a church and to start up. Isn't that what I'm trying to do? That's like God's cuz remember this is the reason I say auntie that I know I can tell when people don't even get the they can't even model the concept of a religious person because you know the famous story where the guy goes dies and he he was in the water and then he like goes to heaven and he goes Jesus I prayed for you why didn't you save me he was like what are you on about I sent like three coast guards and a [ __ ] boat and the premise was he wanted like Jesus himself to materialize come down and pick him up it's like no if God existed in the way that it's claimed he would send a physical thing to help you wouldn't The idea would be he'd make like the lightning hit the tree and the thing would down you grab onto it or a boat would come back. That that's almost what this movie is trying to embody. The idea that like there isn't but this way there's no scene with an actual supernatural event happening.
But if you watch the movie this is even why I' say it's a cool character study.
You completely get the vibe of why these people would get swept up in this and why it even be something you might if you were in that congregation want to be involved in it. Seems [ __ ] dope bro.
Like he is like raising the consciousness in a way. He's getting people in on a vibe like he's transporting them. It's kind of like a What's funny is I'm not even into like Christianity super bad, but I thought it was a pretty cool film actually. It captured a spirit about that that was legit in a way where I know exactly. The problem is the whole time I was waiting like where's the secret? Like it was all of course that's not my real name. This is my secret. No, even to the bit end this is real. Yeah.
>> Well, and I think to your point um you say like it's a lie. I'm not sure it is about the dream because I think what's so interesting about Sunny's character and why this movie works on so many levels is because we're never quite sure of what Sunny's experiences are.
>> Sure. Yeah, that's true.
>> And so you you know he's sleeping out there what in that tent on that guy's land. Sure, the guy told him about it, but how the [ __ ] do we know he didn't have a dream later about, you know, like >> you don't know like I I I don't know.
The thing about Sunny as a character is that you never know what is a lie. In fact, you could level the accusation that his entiretick as a min as a preacher is a lie because what this is the tension of it. We find out like you say, >> why is his wife breaking up with him?
Well, there's a really fishy scene when he she says that where he moves and she flinches and you're like, "Yep, >> well, I have to think about that."
>> There's not a lot for you to think about, Sunny.
>> Yeah.
>> Just want to get on with it. And you just, you know, keep your hands where they are. Okay.
>> Don't >> What?
This probably isn't the first time.
>> I might be off on this, but didn't he just from memory, didn't he say something like like didn't he make some like illusion to like my wandering eye or something? Didn't he make some comment like that? Like he just put it in in passing.
>> It's when he's talking to the Lord and he's like saying, you know, I might have had a wandering eye and taste for the women >> to the sequence when he recapitulates the whole mini relationship with the other woman. I took that to mean like he's also got this child with women too.
By the way, women are drawn to him as well. It's like a real thing. an unbelievably and this this this what I mean it's like you can stack up all of his sins, right? Like very clearly and it's >> that's what I'm saying. So let me let me continue like you find out later in this in his conversation with this other woman that he he is actually he says himself like I'm I have you know I'm a hot-blooded man basically and that you know I these are things that I want. The implication is that he probably beat his wife previously. The implication is he probably cheated on his wife previously.
>> By the way, if you think how he reacted to the Horus guy, you could see he's a guy who on impulse could get violent. He didn't necessarily mean to do that. Did he just he was drunk? He's like he's drunk when he rocks up and beats Horus with a baseball bat. But the fact that it was so cavalier too, like he basically sucker punches Horus with a baseball bat. He's at his children's baseball game and he he's walking away and then he just turns around. By the way, if you someone who didn't watch the movie, >> y'all go ahead and play.
>> I'M TRYING TO BREAK UP THE PARTY HERE.
EVERYBODY. Come on. Let's go. Don't give me Don't call.
>> One for the road. One for the road.
>> You're now going to be like, "Wait a minute. They like this." Yeah. I'm still in on the movie even after I'm in. Yeah.
All I'm all the way involved. talking about.
>> So my point is that already, >> you know, he clearly has some level of a history of cheating, of domestic violence, of physical violence, which plays out even later with this other congregation where he's beating up Billy Bob Thornton.
>> He does his character doesn't have a name in the movie, guys. It's just it's just it is funny cuz it's just >> I know what you mean, but I also took that to mean this guy is not just a [ __ ] random guy. He's actually beat people before. He's probably had a hard life. Yeah.
>> You know, there's there's two ways you could and probably he is the victim of abuse. Like people turn out like this because they themselves were abused most of the time, right?
>> And I think what's so interesting about his character is there's this tension.
Okay, he clearly does bad things, >> but without preaching, without this outlet, >> he would be an even worse person. Yeah, right. At least this is allowing him to potentially do some amount of good in the world. Should he still be in prison?
Abso [ __ ] >> By the way, Monty, the most underrated detail I had to learn myself from experience about religion is this detail, right? Even if you think it's all fake, the thing you can't deny is the following. It is sometimes the only thing that turns otherwise very antisocial bad people into not as bad people. Now to animal the way the way you cynically in a movie were presented as fake is they're not perfect. They lie. They do something not. No. No. The question like you said is this Monty logically here's how I would redo this movie if there was no religion in his will. He'd be a mega con man bro. He has all the skills to do it. That's why you're so worried in the film with how charming he is and how but this way even the way he's trying to like he's taken like what the teenage boy trying to get lucky after a date game to a whole new like advanced PhD class bro he's doing it as a preacher while not seeming dodgy but clearly trying like advanced one's base further as the Americans it's not it's like this guy's just got [ __ ] crazy game but I agree Monty at the end of the movie you if you made a plus minus all the bad things he did on the minor side and all the the plus is overwhelmingly way better if anything actually like a really it's like an advert for religion, bro. It's kind of cool.
>> Yeah.
>> So, so like I think that this portray, you know, there there is the there's the thing that you could say about this film and there are multiple interpretations and is he doing this as a mask for his bad behavior? Or is this actually his salvation for a life that would be totally thrown away, that would be horrifically violent, where he would be an animal basically uh without this other outlet. And I think that's the that's the issue with his character is that he's he's so obsessed with this religion. He's so obsessed with doing these things because you can see he's trying to prevent himself from sliding into the darkness and it's literally the only thing. So he has to focus on it 100% of the time. He has to like keep his mind locked on the preaching and locked on Jesus because if he doesn't do that, he's just going to fall right back into whatever horrible habits came out of his past. And I think that's a fascinating way to pre present this character.
>> The opening scene sets the tone perfectly for me for who Sunny actually is before you even get into the nuts and bolts of the things he's done. And that is there's been like So, first of all, you get this like, you know, it's just a kid in a church listening to, you know, classic uh Pentecostal gospel style preaching um from an elderly black preacher. And then it cuts to and by the way just cuts because it's doval and he's just like I'll just make a borderline experimental movie for the first 30 minutes.
>> And also there's no explanation that that's him as a child. You just have to like put it together after put it together. Exactly. Um and in many such cases actually and and anyway they it cuts to a horrific fender bender. Like there's been this horrific fender bender. There's a sports car wrapped around a tree. The police are on scene and there's some grizzled old southern police captains going, "I always hate it when the dogs live because you can never tell what car they came from and all this shit." And uh anyway, Sunny and his elderly mother are driving down the road and he immediately stops, gets out, gets his Bible, walks over to one of the car racks, puts his head through the window, and says, "You are you all right in there, son? You all right in there, son? Just uh just nod if you can. If you can nod, you know, just blink. But if you can't do that either, just just know I'm here with you. Know Jesus is in this car with you. And it's it's a guy who he's bolt upright with his eyes open. He looked it's implied he could be paralyzed by the by the car accident. And next to him is his girlfriend or wife or whoever it might be. And she's unconscious and bleeding from her head.
>> And Sunny reaches across and like >> this is like an insane moment of tenderness, right? given how given how inappropriate this situation is. He puts his wife's hand on his hand.
>> And then he says like, "Listen, listen, >> right, the angels are around us now.
Like, you're either going to go home or you're going to live your life out with Christ for the rest of your life. Do you accept Christ into your life?" And I think a lot of people are going to take this scene and go, "Wow, it's so despicable he would recruit somebody while they're vulnerable that but but he's not doing it for recruitment. And how do we know that? He walks away.
Police officer comes up to him and goes, "Do you think you achieved something today?" And he goes, "Well, just let me tell you, I'd rather die young and go straight to heaven with Jesus than live a hundred years and go to hell." And the cop's like, "Is that right?" He goes, "Yeah, it is." And then he gets in the car and him and his mother as they drive away from the wreckage, they're singing and praying for that boy's life and and and you know, to be to be saved. And when I see you, I will rise up today.
>> So, okay, what do we know about >> he doesn't gain anything out of it, by the way. We never find out what happens.
>> Isn't that even I'm I'm going to guess if you guys had a similar reaction to me. Every time he keeps reaching in, I think, is he reaching in for someone's wallet and part the I kept thinking, is that what they're going to do right now?
cuz I I agree it's a weird scene, right?
But also there's a detail you forgot to mention, Richard. When he drives away by the power of movie magic, her hand moves. That's actually beautiful.
Unironically, I thought that was kind of cool.
>> A key component. Actually, you're right to include that. Kind of cool, wasn't it?
>> Yeah. And what we learn, >> surely that gives you a clue already.
This isn't going to be like some super cynical movie. Why put that scene in otherwise, you know?
>> Yes. What what what's how we know he's genuine is and what all the things we learn about him is we well, first of all, we know his faith is absolutely genuine. We also know he does genuinely care about people and believes that, you know, all people can redeem and be saved by Christ. We also know that he will be inappropriate and over the top in his faith and in his love and in his desire to share the message. And so cuz cuz it is a it is a weird thing to do and and we all feel that. We all feel that in the moment. But it does come from a good place and a pure place. And so therefore, you have to balance it out.
And this is ultimately uh where where you're going to get into with this character, the complexity of a character. Uh a heavy drinking southern guy who you find out at the end is descended from a line of like hustlers and card sharks, but because of his introduction as a child to this church, he felt, you know, he felt Christ's power. And then, you know, there's just one little scene as well that's just fades in and fades out. It's about 15 seconds long. It's him age 12. He picks up a photo, 15-second flashback. It's him preaching to adults age 12.
>> He's been doing this his entire life.
>> It's all he really knows how to do and he certainly is a better preacher than he is a man. But that's also a key thing to the story. So it's funny.
>> By the way, I've got I've got a reference for you. I think Mitchell might know this one. I don't know if you've ever seen this movie, Monty.
There was a movie from 1992 starring Steve Martin. It's called Leap of Faith.
Oh yeah. And basically, if you've ever seen this movie, that's what made me think this movie was just going to be similar. It's a plot where basically there's a guy who's a fake faith healer and he's in like a small town where no one knows him and he like you know wins over the people and then the idea is he gets exposed like pretty this movie even has a cool line in it where even though he is totally fake in this one like it's it's not legit what he's doing. First of all in this movie they have a slight sweet moment where like at the end somehow he sort of maybe did do a miracle because he finally sort of believed and then also he has a cool line in it where when they expose his past as a con man this is genius. He just goes, "Well, who's going to know sin but a sinner?" And then he spins it as like, "Well, of course I'd have to be the one who believed in redemptive power because I was indeed, as you say, a liar and a god man. It's But what's funny is that movie is just about what you think this movie is going to be like, oh, there's a big rug pull cover." You're going to find out even he doesn't really believe it. Like there's not even that component. And at the end, you presume it's going to be something like either he makes off with all their money or he does have this church or something.
That's what's funny about the movie is like it first of all, it actually doesn't have anything. This movie has almost no pace to it. It's just scenes of people slowly walk around talking.
There's barely any action. There's only a couple of scenes where he like beats someone up or something. That's even very mild. Couple of seconds. And the movie doesn't have anything sort of driving its plot really. It's just what this guy is doing in his daily life.
It's it's actually like an artifact of it's just such an unusual film to me.
It is it is really southern gothic in terms of literature and like that's it is very similar to like a William Faulner novel in that these are kind of abstract character-driven pieces and for those people who don't know about southern gothic fiction uh we will go back to my hated genre of Gothic fiction which I didn't think I would be talking how much I hate it on this show constantly but so gothic fiction is a Europe an genre um that basically focused a lot on the supernatural, right? And it was, oh, here's a haunted castle or a weird crypt and you know, here's the corruption of the Catholic church and all this like lascivious stuff is going to happen or weird violence. And you know, obviously this bled into Victorian literature, but Victorian literature, things like Dracula are like way better than Gothic fiction. Gothic fiction is pretty much garbage. Uh but you know this this transformed in America into southern Gothic because a real key theme of Gothic literature is that the past is like manifesting in the present in very weird ways like >> the this this castle's ruin is causing ghosts to hurt us, right? And southern Gothic kind of took some of these ideas and it said, "Okay, well, the the the breaking of the South, the Civil War and Southern Reconstruction have caused these massive scars in the southern in the southern psyche basically." And so you have these class divides and you have these racial issues and you have this perpetuation of violence, right?
And this is a lot of where people like Faulner's work reside in is that there is still this like there's this there's this dark undercurrent and it can take Southern Gothic is still being made.
Sinners is a [ __ ] Southern Gothic movie. It's about supernatural vampires based off of racism. Like it is a southern gothic movie. Uh it just this is not supernatural but it is about racism. It is about class divides. It is about random violence still hurting the community. And where is the darkness within Sunny coming from? But the the horror element is Sunny, right? And so this really does fit that that southern gothic theme. And then, you know, later on a lot of this turned into like Western Gothic, which would be like Cormick McCarthy, right? So Gothic literature did make good stuff in the end. And I do quite like Southern Gothic. Another movie might be like Big Fish. Um, if you've seen that one, I I think we probably >> This is I I was going to make this point later on, but this is the this is good if we're talking about the southern gothic stuff, you know? I mean, first of all, we have to do Angel Heart at some point, right? That's one of the all-time great southern gothic films. Uh, but I mean, this the apostle is three years before Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? Oh, Brother, where art thou? Probably can't go on to be a hit without, you know, priming the pump of, like I said, we had a run of like really good southern gothic kind of movies.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's an interesting one because it's like have something gothic but it is an Odyssey remake. Yes. You know what I mean?
>> So it's it's an interesting crossroads.
>> It's essentially it's essentially literature. Yeah. Yeah. It's a veneer of a genre laid over a narrative of a different >> It's a banger movie.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> So and also just to your point Monty I went through a period of time where I was utterly convinced for years and I probably said this to Duncan when we were younger men uh that The Sound and the Fury by William Falton was the greatest novel ever written. Now I no long I I I would say my taste has changed somewhat but I still think >> a great book.
>> I still think >> I like As I Lay Dying More, but you know they're both great.
>> Yeah, great stuff.
>> By the way, another thing you sort of referenced earlier too is when they have all the there's one thing actually about the south that people don't appreciate is they have a thing like a lot of cultures where they have a connection to their past through those like strange little sayings and you know so the wisdom and things but if you ever listen to those like they have them in England as well etc. that they sound like just silly things that people say, "Oh, platitudes." But often like there is like some wisdom hidden in there. Again, by the way, if I just switched this to here's what a Zen monk told me in Japan, you'd all be fascinated. Oh, incredible like Reddit faces. Wow, it's to consider. But you just because so many movies have told you these are stupid poor people or whatever, you just ignore it and think it's just trite or stupid.
But I actually I think there's like a because to me that's also what this movie is about. Like I agree with Richard. This is like about the concept of like southern hospitality and the idea that like if you are like good fork then people will provide you probably in a very Christian manner like they sort of they do sort of live out their ideals in that sense. Why it's not cynical.
It's why it's kind of an interesting fact. LIKE I SAY, I'VE ALMOST never seen a real Hollywood film that treated this as like a serious subject with no like sort of caprice hidden in there or no booby trap of some kind.
>> Yeah, like I say, I'm not even joking.
Look, I do appreciate this character was a flawed character and he had troubles in his life. And like Brit Spear, I don't know if I'd want to be around him necessarily depending which character I was playing within this arc, but and like I say, I actually was just in the whole movie. It didn't put me off even when he did potentially kill someone or he was lying or what. There's something about the character was really compelling.
>> It it is. But and it also, you know, it it generates the question. I I think the question that was very interesting to me about this is okay, he gets caught eventually, right? Mhm.
>> But let's take this character and let's transport him to another point in history, right? This guy never gets caught.
>> In medieval times, this guy mercs that dude.
>> Oh, he could be some Machaveli attack guy. YEAH, OF COURSE.
>> IT'S NOT EVEN a Machavelian. It's just that he merks that dude, goes a 100 miles to a different town, and then nobody ever arrests.
>> Oh, before someone could hear you on the radio and catch you, see what you mean?
>> And this guy goes on to become a hero in this new town. And his entire, you know, he would never be caught. He would never be caught because it's so it was back in the day significantly easier to get away with this [ __ ] >> Yeah. But isn't it is doesn't this movie imply though Monty there is a serendipity that you you know like actually it essentially he was whether whether he genuinely believed it or not and I believe he does. I believe textually I believe the character believes in like Jesus sent him to the small community to rekindle you know the the retired pastor's love of faith to build a church succeeded an appropriate moment to leave sort of got them up and running to take to take a racist character like Billy Bob Thornton and cleanse the hate from his heart so he can sit in a church with black people in it and praise the Lord and he's done everything and also >> you could even argue he inadvertently helped the that woman reconcile in a way he never could in his relation. Could I imply he actually did do the Lord's work?
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and then and then obviously finds a a a young man who is initially cynical about the church, just a humble mechanic, but who then accepts Christ as his savior, and then goes on to he gives him his Bible at the end, his most [ __ ] treasured possession.
He gives young Walton Gogggins his Bible and says like, "I'm going to jail, but you know, you're going to heaven." You know, like it's [ __ ] great. So like it was like one last mission. You can look at it like, you know, almost Blues Brothers. We're gonna say he was on a mission from God. This was his one last mission. And then Jesus says, "Right now, it's time for you to pay the price.
It's time. You have to pay your earthly price for your sins before you can be forgiven and pass into heaven there. You know, there could be no redemption without that." And so, obviously, he goes to jail, realizes that, and singing his heart out on a chain gang.
>> Who is our heavenly father's son >> Jesus? And who was sent on earth to save her here?
>> Jesus.
>> Yeah. Though I walk through the valley, who's my Lord and Savior?
>> Jesus.
>> It's [ __ ] great. I love this movie.
I'm I'm a cynical piece of [ __ ] I love this film.
>> Yeah. And I I think, you know, to the point about it being a non-traditional movie, it is significantly more like a novel than anything else. You know, it gives you the pieces.
>> The dreaded term is the character study.
It is character study. It's not some wanky like run for Broadway. There is you know like a novel there is a significant amount of information that is hidden from the viewer just like it's hidden from the reader and you must interpret what is giving you given you because if you literally if you just take this movie at face value you would never understand why Sunny's wife would get divorce him. You would never really you know his his psychology is opaque >> in this. We never really know what he's thinking. And that's why he's such a fascinating character because he appears to be a man of true belief, but he's also the same man who when his church gets interrupted, we'll just go fist fight somebody outside in his psycho manner. Well, just get on out of here.
>> Get on out of here right now.
>> I'll leave when I choose to, Mr. Eel.
That's what I'll do.
>> Come on around on the other side, buddy.
Come on. Stay right there. Come on, buddy. See what you're made of. You want the Lord to watch me kick your ass? I >> I don't need the Lord. Is that what you want? I don't need the Lord. Come on.
Come on.
or when he's at his own children's baseball game.
>> Totally justified by the way turn around and hit someone in the head with a baseball bat and like justified the >> it is the what >> I said that's less justified. I won't lie that second one bad. Yeah, agree.
>> Agree. I mean, even if we can all understand his anger about that situation, clearly that like I mean, I hate to say this, but even if you're going to kill that guy at your children's baseball, like sure, >> he has no problem with the crime, just the venue.
>> I'll put it to you. You might have killed a man, but your children's birthday.
>> Yeah, I might be a simple country lawyer. It seems to me to murder a man.
Why not do it in his bed when he with your wife?
>> I mean, exactly. Because he already caught them together. It wasn't, you know, it's weird that the crime of passion didn't happen then. And like I said, >> but there is a there is a thematic link.
He did throw a baseball through their window, though. And then later at a baseball game, he hits him with a bat.
So, he's just using all the equipment of baseball to express his frustration.
>> He was obviously a disappointed Kevin Carnafer.
>> Exactly.
Uh I I think if you you know when you look at these these scenes when he commits this horrible act of violence in front of his own children like I said you can assume pretty safely that he was somehow abused as a child either sexually probably not sec probably violently you know by his own father would be my guess watching this and the way he behaves and the his darkness and the way he can't control himself. Um but you know by displaying this own violence again in front of his children he is in a way like perpetuating the darkness within himself. And I think that's what's so interesting about this film is that you get the sense that he is trying to perpetuate the good parts of himself the lights within himself through religion and through building communities. But he is simultaneously accidentally perpetuating the darkness at times right by inflicting this upon other people and his own kids.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, look, I I think what you what you have to also understand is that this like I I think he sees himself as almost like, how do I phrase it like the like he himself is proof of the Lord's providence, you know, like like >> he he knows he's a piece of [ __ ] >> Well, he definitely sees himself as a sinner. Absolutely. To me, that's why he's I agree with Monty. That's why he's so hardcore into the religion that it's like the way to ward off the evil.
>> Yeah. And like when he says like and and again it comes up time and time again he's not afraid of saying it you know even though there is an inherent there is there are a number of moments of dishonesty. Lying of course is a sin. Um you know but like when when the time to be honest about his past is there from for the benefit of the church or the benefit of bringing someone into the church like with Billy Bob Thornton.
Remember the last thing he says before they get up and accept him into the church is he goes, "I was a worse sinner than you in my time." You know, and think about it. This is Billy Bob Thornton. This is a racist guy who came down to [ __ ] attack a church. Got his ass kicked. Came back with a bulldozer and three of his red. He's going to destroy your [ __ ] >> He didn't even do it at night. He didn't even bulldo in the middle of the day children there, right? Like that's insane, right?
>> And that's insane. And Robert Dal's like, "I was a worse sinner than you." I was like really [ __ ] you didn't kill that dude. So you know um so >> by the way one thing also about this movie we haven't even talked about this part is the traditional type of role that Robert Dval masters normally is the stoic like you know like deep character but like just a little bit he is so over the top in this but he pulls it off.
He's like he he captures that passion and the idea the guy's always on some it's it's there something quite unique about the performance. It's why the idea that like this is like his passion project he always wanted to do is so interesting. I didn't look into the background as usual, but it made me wonder do you find anything out about that [ __ ] >> Oh yeah. I mean, well, first of all, you know, Robert Duval, I mean, I said this on um one of the episodes where we set up we were going to do a Robert Duval arc and we were like laughing about, you know, how to [ __ ] lose all your subscribers and get no views, etc. Um, you know, >> I do think this arc is going to get [ __ ] all views. No, it's good. It's sweet.
Not the draw is it at all.
>> Yeah, exactly. doing it for doing it for an actor that gave me you know so many great memories and such a great experience and um you know legends don't get replaced >> and all I'm going to say is this Lord if you're out there and you want to work your methods just make this have 20k views and I'll know you must be real because how could the Apostle ever get 20 if that happens then I'll have to just I'll have to >> you have no idea you have no idea actually how funny that is within the context of what I'll talk about in a moment but anyway the um so it was right Robert Duval is not like um a regular Hollywood person. He is a unabashed Republican, but he was but he was such a nice guy. You know, Hollywood would just sort of they allowed him a habit.
>> He's the talking Republican, right?
Charlton H.
>> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Like these types of characters.
>> John Wayne is a few obviously. Yeah.
Sure. you know, it's like, okay, he's he's Republican, but also as well, I mean, like in terms of um his early life, he was raised in um what is called um Christian Science >> and and Yeah. Exactly. Now, for those >> that was one that had like a faith healing component, right? Something like that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that he was raised in the Christian Science uh church. Um and even though he wasn't like a devout attendee or whatever growing up, that's the background of his family. And so I I I I think um I I think basically like he also had a big schism with his family as well. He was estranged from his family because they wanted him go into uh military service um which which he and he didn't want to do that and then he did he ended up wanting to act but then he went into the army and served in the Korean War. I think he did like one year. Um so anyway bas and then he came back and and it was all about the acting. So I think basically there are like these little elements that are like represented in here. I think he wanted to present a sympathetic view of the church and how churches bring communities together even if you don't necessarily believe in the style of preaching. I also think as well when we talk about the term charismatic I think people don't realize like it's essentially a branch of Christianity. It is called the charis charismatic Christianity movement and it is it it is embedded in Pentecostalism because it is about having a preacher that ultimately um you know can speak to a crowd but it's all about the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost and baptism and being reborn and >> can I explain that real quick to people that understand?
>> Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So the Pentecost is a holiday where the apostles had the Holy Ghost descend and infuse them and that's what caused them to become apostles and start to evangelize, right? And in Pentecostalism in America, how this manifests is this is the people you see speaking in tongues when they're like possessed by the Holy Spirit. And it is this, you know, animated reference in this movie hilariously by that radio. He goes, "Now listen now, you can say whatever you want from God, but no speaking in tongues on these airwaves, sir."
>> Brilliant.
>> I did laugh at that mo.
>> So good.
>> Only only in Louisiana would you have to would you have that? That's like your problem on the radio. It's like no more.
That's the small print for your for your advertising.
>> Too many tongues on these too many people talking in tongues on these airways. Can't have that anymore.
>> It's so good.
>> One other thing, no fancy stuff. We don't allow speaking on tongues. Only the king's English here. No speaking on tongues over these airways.
>> And also when he actually does that second act when he be goes to the small town, he actually self baptizes himself and then like christes himself like the apostle or whatever. That's even >> I was I was going to ask you about that because I always think that's a funny scene because it shows two things as well. The hubris to baptize yourself is kind of outrageous. Yeah.
>> Uh but >> Napoleonic in a way.
>> Yeah. But also the [ __ ] >> ah he recogniz it's it's also symbolic that he does recognize it's a fresh start. This is what I mean. What's great about >> this is the No, no, no. This is the brilliance of this character, though, is that he his psychology is so nuanced and layered. And this is where it's it's very much like a Faulner novel, right?
Or one of the great like pieces of art of of Southern Gothic is that when when he baptizes himself, his conscious level knows, I need an alter ego to escape the police.
>> Sure.
>> True.
>> It almost is like a corporate identity.
So he's like, "Oh shit." But how is he justifying this to himself? I committed a sin. I am rebaptized. I myself he understands how to participate in like his own self-fulfilling prophecy.
>> He is he is cleansing himself of the sin being reborn as a different person who is apparently somehow even more uh dedicated to God than he alistic just my initials. You know, if you if you want a deep cover identity, what's that number?
None your business. Don't worry about that.
>> Yeah. But it's like, you know, I'm I'm Apostle EF now. I'm no longer Sunny, right? And you don't really know why he's doing this, but you can see that his his own psychology is just a war with itself because it's like, ah, [ __ ] I need to escape. Must justify reason that I am still a good person or I am a I'm a good person now. Um, and it is a mark of how everyone's psychology works, right? in his own story, just like in all our stories, we're the main character, and we have to justify being the main character through these narratives. And you you literally watch him, his his psychology cannot comprehend why he murdered that guy. So now this is how it's manifesting so that he could continue on with his life. It's wild to watch.
>> Yeah. I mean I also just want to talk about uh the as I said the dialogue in this movie it bristles with authenticity uh with all the folkisms and homalies and and the way people do talk in the south but it's also just really clever dialogue a lot of the time um my >> witty in it.
>> Yeah. My favorite line in the whole movie is when uh the preacher is asking him about his work ethic and he says what is it? He goes, "Well, I I I quit I quit school because I didn't like recess."
>> You move faster than any man I ever seen.
>> Well, when I was young, I I tell everybody I quit school cuz I didn't like recess.
Yeah.
>> Ah, it's like >> straight fire, is it? That's a great joke. That's a really good joke. I had delivered in such like a dead pan way, isn't it? Like >> Yeah. And by the way, obviously he is as good as his word. He's got two jobs to pay for the paint for the church and you know there's just lo there's loads of little humble you know he's coming from this big church and he goes to this new place and he is a he takes a job as a mechanic and as >> you at a shop as well he's literally just making ice cream cones for kids at an ice cream stand. Right. Yeah, even when he's preaching, the [ __ ] he says is is sometimes hilarious. Like um there's a bit where he's like, "Do you want to be on the devil's hit list? Then you got to be on Jesus's mailing list." I love that. I love that line.
>> Just back flips over the devil or whatever it is. There's so many good lines in this one.
>> When he's on the radio station and he's talking about Moses and the Ten Commandments and he's going, "There was only 10 commandments. There were not 11 commandments. There were not 12 commandments. Thou cannot shout the 11th commandment for it does not exist." It's like [ __ ] He's just straight fire.
like and and >> you want to be on THE DEVIL'S HIT LIST.
>> DO YOU WANT TO BE ON THE DEVIL'S HIT LIST?
>> THEN YOU BETTER GET ON JESUS MAILING LIST.
>> YOU BETTER get on Jesus made it list.
>> Put all the elements of the devil behind you. Work on it.
>> Obviously as well like Duval goes through. He's essentially three characters in one hit. like he is the troubled piece of [ __ ] sinner, the contemplative, the quiet guy who's like always thinking about how we can get to the next stage and get the church up and running and all of this stuff. And then the [ __ ] fire the fiery energetic preacher. I mean, this must have been an unbelievably demanding role for Duval, especially in an environment where you're not getting notes from a director. He's also 66 or something when he does this movie. By the way, mate, he's not a young guy either, >> which you wouldn't believe. I mean, he might look he might look that age, but in terms of the energy.
>> Yeah. It's crazy, is it? What a great performance.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then, you know, while we're just talking about performances and cast, what a [ __ ] cast in this film. Another reason I didn't want to [ __ ] >> tell you know you must appled in some favors like m the movie opens you're like is that fair and forcing then later on just unannounc >> just just an unannounced Billy Bob Thornton he's just in the movie too this already night fucking7 m famous person like this guy he was pulling in all his rolodex was good >> also as well the the outrage to get to kiss prime Miranda Richardson how you know also kind of how dare you sir how dare you Mr. do uh young woman.
>> Yeah, but that's why when she comes in reconciled, he's like, "I'm out."
>> He doesn't come out in that moment. I love it. He's literally talking about God gives me all the energy I need. I can work another job. And then he just took looks around. Miranda Richardson's reconciling with her husband and he just goes, "I quit, sir. I will never serve another meal out that window." And he just walks out and it's like it's the it's the [ __ ] dichotomy. This guy is this [ __ ] contradiction. this hypocritical man who is like probably the best preacher I've ever seen.
>> Yeah, it's great. Um, so here you go. I can tell you the story about how it made its money >> and because you are like saying it is proof in a god that a movie for 5 million that was obscure and it came out in 97 and got really overlooked by the academy which we'll also talk about in a moment. Um, and it went on to make over $21 million in box office. Well, here's what's interesting guys. Have a guess how much it made on its opening weekend.
>> Are we going to go some small? Is it going to be something like 100,000 or something and then it goes crazy after that? Are we doing something like that?
>> Got got 100 Monty.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, I think that's probably fair. I think probably this was a word of mouth thing that spread in the south and it was just a very niche locally located phenomenon.
>> $4,000.
>> Oo. But that's got to be one of the craziest. Remember, normally your opening weekend has to be insane, doesn't it? If you could go for 40k to get 20 mil total, give me the story.
>> And and what and what is crazy is uh churches and Bible groups and online, uh cuz obviously it's 97, so we've got very like early internet, I think, word of mouth. And basically, this was upheld because the Christian community believed like, holy holy [ __ ] this is like a completely fair and reasonable representation of of our faith. All of the church groups started going to this movie and they started recommending it and it was kind of like, you know, like a Passion of Christ thing where >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
>> where where basically it was like it made it >> the whole trip of the >> go it made its money because of the congregations essentially. It's like such a crazy story because to get up to 21 million worldwide box office on that basis after starting with a $40,000 weekend, you don't know how right you are. It really does show the power of >> IT HAS NO SPECIAL EFFECTS. THERE'S NO GIANT SEQUENCE. There's no like even the actors I assume were probably made to Robert Deval. I know it's nuts in it. By the way, though, what's funny is in a in a in a in a perfect note of like resonance that almost itself is the ideology of the movie, which is you might think, yeah, but that's just because a BUNCH OF CHRISTIANS GOT YEAH, BUT IT'S STILL A MIRACLE, ISN'T IT? HOW THE [ __ ] DID A tiny movie that has no real like like it doesn't have a satisfying plot? It just has an interesting like character study of a character that normally people wouldn't let cube up to watch. The idea a $5 million movie that can make 20 million is crazy. That is nuts.
>> Yeah. Abs.
>> It's very impressive.
>> And and so we move on to the 1998 Oscars, right? How could anyone but Robert Duval win?
>> Like how? Like think of the films, right, that that were nominated. Now look, LA Confidential was nominated for best picture. We covered that.
>> Titanic was there. The full monty goodwill.
>> Holy [ __ ] The full Monty was on there.
Yeah. What's wrong? He wasn't even nominated. I'll remind people to the full Monty's on there.
>> Well, it's going to upset you because it's going to upset you because he was nominated for the for the um Oscar and he ran up against a very mediocre >> as as best acting performance, I'm assuming.
>> Yes. Yeah. Best actor in the leading role. and uh he ran up against a very I mean no disrespect to a great actor but it was a very mediocre performance Dustin Hoffman in Wag the Dog if you remember that film.
>> Okay.
>> Uh Peter Fondonder um obviously getting to you know Last of Summer wine. He had he was in a movie called Uli's Gold where he played Ulyses Jackson.
>> Um then you had uh uh Matt Damon and Goodwill Hunting obviously which >> all right >> you might like the film but the performance is just Matt Damon, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. This This seems like a pretty weak field compared to some of the other.
>> And then the winner was Jack Nicholson.
And you go, "Well, Jack Nicholson straight fire movie though."
>> Yeah. As good as it gets. That [ __ ] romance movie.
>> Oh, THAT WAS WHEN HE FELT DAIRO ALREADY.
THAT WAS WHEN HE'D ALREADY GONE DIRO.
WHY DID THEY GO Dero again? Because they didn't give it to him.
>> They didn't give it to him.
>> Jack on my list of people that when I go back in time and I have to murder them and save their thumb, he can go on the list as well. He's right with Bobby. I go Bobby Diro first a couple years earlier for Jack. I get them all, mate.
I get them all by the end.
>> Yeah, mate. And and obviously Robert Dwell had to sit.
>> Oh, by the way, I I just have to mention this while I remember it now. I think it was from our movie channel or something.
I can't remember. Or maybe it was just someone else, but someone put on my Discord in the meme channel, like a screenshot of a comment, and apparently it was like a real comment. It wasn't even a troll. It was someone who watched like Casino or something, and they were like, "Oh my god, I can't believe how good Robert Dero was. I've only seen him in stuff like Meet the Fuckers." And I'm like, "God, I'm tired.
He was really good when he was younger.
Like, oh, what are you doing? Cuz there will be a whole generation when he saw all the [ __ ] he did for like 2002.
>> That's horrible. Horrifying to think about.
>> That's so gross. That's so gross. That would be like someone watching Godfather Part Two GOING, "IS THAT THE GUY FROM ROCKY and Bullwinkle?"
>> I This is actually mind-blowing to me because >> Jack Nicholson had already won two Academy Awards before this.
>> Why were they giving it to him again?
>> That movie is nothing. Why are we giving it for that? what are we doing right now?
>> So, I mean, and and you know, The Apostle, it wasn't nominated for uh best picture. I It wasn't nominated for um best uh screenplay.
>> Uh >> I think screenplay is even the better shot, mate. It's like a very interestingly written film as well.
>> It was It was unbelievably overlooked by the Oscars. And this reason why I wanted to bring it up mid as [ __ ] if we're being honest. Like there's nothing special about the direction here. I I like I'll say there's nothing special about the dire.
I can get on board with that as an opinion, but I will say the way the film is assembled is interesting. I I will certainly say that it's unique.
>> I agree.
>> It doesn't feel, you know, it doesn't feel like a trai like we've all seen what happens when Kevin Cena directs a film. You know what I mean? And it's just so generic and like it just hits all the peaks. This is way more meditative and slow and you know like it's like a novel, you know, which I can also understand I can understand why people bounce off this movie too because people bounce off Cormick m you know the films that Cormick McCarthy wrote because they're novels and I think that's been one of the funniest things about me reading criticism of things like the counselor which is people are like it's like reading a Cormick McCarthy novel. I'm like yeah that's what I wanted. It's literally just what I wanted.
>> Yeah that's what I paid my money for.
>> Yeah exactly. But I but you know, you just have to deal with characters doing insane monologues that are weird in film and also aren't realistic to how people talk in real life because that's just how he writes. Um, >> but I mean for for it for for Duval to miss the Oscar here is is I I don't know. I mean, it it's like I've always talked a lot about like Pulp Fiction being snubbed and you know, obviously Duncan and I have talked about Heat and all of this stuff. I feel at least those movies got recognized. This movie didn't. This movie just like in a >> slap on film read of it in in a in an unbel like I I know I'm talking about Titanic like massive box office smash and and Goodwill Hunting like in the you know the resurrection of like the concept of the indie auto right like these are important I like confidential you know we we've covered these films and constantly referenced them but I still think that's an unbelievably weak field like for an Oscar year uh if if those are the best examples of a year of film I don't know how the apostle can get left out and and you know that's another reason why much like you know other movies I've added to you know to this when we do the arcs like this is a movie people have to see I will also add if you are someone who practices faith any faith by the way I think the narrative of this movie is very reaffirming and will also reaffirm you in that belief in that faith w without sort of you know mocking you.
You don't need to be a Christian to appreciate this. No, >> you know this this is about how you know faith can override certain things. And I I I do I do wonder if the academy were a little bit snooty about it on that basis.
>> Well, it makes me think I would actually love to see someone from each different tradition do a film like this. Like I'll give you an example. Even though it wouldn't normally be my sort of like millure I'd be interested in. Imagine if someone made a movie where it was in like contemporary times with a Muslim guy, but who actually is like some inspired by faith and he's doing like all acts. That would be a fascinating different view on their culture that I would never have experienced ever because whenever I experience it, they're just a terrorist or it's just a lie. And it's like again, no one ever treats it as serious.
>> I feel like about Kingdom of Heaven, mate. I mean, if I know we another movie we constantly reference, but like when I was at school used to do >> Yeah, I know. when I when I was at school like we learned about the Crusades and Saladin and let me and and the Sariss and let me just say it it my child when I was learning about this in school wasn't a lot of textual analysis of Saladin or who he wasn't really you know there was no like Saladin apologists in class you know what I'm saying was just like yeah we we we [ __ ] you know we went to [ __ ] this guy up he was a bad man and you know things happened >> that was it >> yeah yeah and that that was pretty much what you learn in school there's no nuance or recontextualization or even studying sources from outside of whatever's on the syllabus. You know, obviously school's changed a lot since I was a kid, but I mean I remember like every time so also as well every time you see like this movie come up um it's like people say this is like the historic representation of Salomon. He wasn't like some despicable evil person.
And he was quite a benevolent conqueror, you know, like and obviously wanted compromise where possible and he's revered, you know, as like this great historical figure and and you know, the more you read about and you understand it, right? And and you know, one of the funny thing is when you when you scrolling at night and eventually the Kingdom of Heaven shorts come up and he's like, I will get you my best physicians, everyone's like, yeah, praise be to God, you know, like [ __ ] Saladine the great man, blah blah blah.
They're all there in the comments, you know, culturally he's an icon and it's Yeah. And it's super interesting because often you you know you wouldn't have that frame of reference if it wasn't for like the you know global connectivity of the internet. I find that really interesting. Um, and so again, back, you know, linking all of that back to the movie, I think if you don't know anything about Pentecostalism, you don't know anything about evangelical churches, you don't really understand beyond the, again, I'll use that word that sneering smug, look at these idiots uh, in a church like hyping themselves up and all of this stuff. You don't know anything about that because you've only really been shown the extreme comedic examples like this. Watch this film and it will un it will underscore the importance of faith for social cohesion and for little communities.
>> It's also for this version of faith in with this particular human being and many human beings are similar to this one where there is I think one of the issues is is that there is a lionization of intellectual religion. you know, the deep study of texts, knowing Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic and being able to have, you know, intellectually spar or grapple with these big ideas from a logical perspective and uh or a theological perspective, right? And that's not really what this is. Like you say, it's vibes preaching. There's not really scripture in this, right? It's him making up stories that connect with people to the present and there's not a lot of intellectual depth. It's and the de you know he he's witty >> and he says oh and we're going to keep the devil at bay but that is almost like a magic spell he is invoking upon himself to keep his darkness at bay. The religion is actually incidental I think to the story and to a lot of southern preaching if I'm going to be honest like Christianity is a vehicle but it's not it could be it could be many other religions let's put it that way that's not what this way isn't the movie also like I would say this movie I know what you mean Monty because I would say this movie isn't necessarily telling you about the efficacy specifically of Christianity it's more telling you about the function that religion plays in people's lives I know what you mean Monty yeah >> yes and And what it is is a personal inc it's an personal incantation to keep his own darkness away.
>> Right? And it's for other people it's a tool to create this community and this space where they can open up to profound feelings of awe or connectedness. It's a universal theme and it's the it's the base layer of religion. But often times I think people think about religion as the intellectual study on top of that, right? Not. And this is really taking religion down to its roots. And you know, and I think other Christians, especially Christian elites, right?
People who are from Catholicism, right, with its very serious schooling or, you know, certain Lutheranism, right? Um that are much more, I would say, you know, intellectual takes on Christianity.
There's and because these people tend to be the ones who control culture, right?
They are traditionally more educated.
They're the ones who are in charge of the media companies that publish the or the texts or make the movies, right?
There isn't there it does tend to be ignored. And I think, you know, to Richard's story about how this was popular and how it actually made money, it makes a lot of sense. But there's there's always this incentive to [ __ ] on this because, you know, if we're being real, it's not really Christian. It's kind of just the fundamental, you know, the the magic stuff at the bottom of every religion.
>> Um, and people just have are so divorced from that. there's so many layers between them and that in certain Christian branches that they never really go back down to that or they think that that experience is somehow base and invalid.
>> There's actually there's actually a really good scene in True Detective that um it's hard to believe >> also Southern Gothic by the way great example Southern >> in the first season of True Detective where it's like they literally go to one of the tent revivals. We see a tent revival in this uh if you don't know what a tent revival is is pretty much what it sounds like. It's like they throw up a tent in, you know, a field and it's and they invite they put flyers up in neighboring communities and they invite people to come and, you know, and and there'll be some sermonizing and and and what have you and then the tent gets taken down, everyone goes their separate ways and round and round and round the preacher will move, you know, and so in True Detective, you have uh you have Russ who is a pessimist atheist, like absolutely cannot believe in God or Jesus or anything like that. Uh particularly because he lost his daughter in a horrible accident. So he has no faith. He doesn't even have faith in humanity, let alone a higher power.
>> And then you've obviously got Marty Hart, played by Woody Harlson, who is, you know, he cheats on his wife. He's a heavy drinker. Um but he still kind of wants to believe in something beyond all of this to give his life some cohesion and meaning. And they go to this tent revival and they're talking about it.
And you know, some of the lines in this is just great. But ultimately, it is essentially the dialogue people will have engaging with this film that, oh, it's good. It's good that these people have something to believe in. And you know, Russ Cole says the only um Oh. Oh, no. Well, my and my heart says uh you know, if we didn't have religion, the world would be a freak show of murder and debortery. And he and Russ call says if the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then brother that person is a piece of [ __ ] and I want as many of them out in the open as possible. And so they have this wonderful back and forth and ultimately I feel that's like a dialogue a lot of people will have about this type of preaching and this type of faith that it it on the outside it looks weird but on the you know but does it serve something positive? Probably in the grand scheme of things. Um, a lot of people like to believe they're beyond this, you know, and like like Monty says, not a lot of intellectualism. This is about a feeling, you know, a belief.
Uh, it's the purest distillation of the Christian faith in a lot of ways. Um, so I I I think if any, again, if anyone's interested in all these companion pieces, there's many of them. I also have never really found that like I've always found that to be sort of a straw man argument because first of all the implication is like you on some level almost know it's fake and it's only like the notion that you're going to gain something like what's weird about that is that in itself is an inherently materialistic way of looking at the world because you're acting like as long as I get something in the end that's why I'm going to be good no in the meantime you are going to be good like that has its own efficacy it own value like and also the reason it's a bit of a straw band to me is because when people say that they're implying that they're a good person based on no ide first of all every person has an ideology whether it's Marxism whatever you're all going towards some utopia or something we're all that's how all the reward mechanisms in the human brain work and then also if that were true then people could do all these wonderful things I just said but wouldn't need any of the religion but that just hasn't proven to be the case when we've moved into a secularist atheist world people actually go way more like to eras when we didn't have religion where people would just rob you and do things and they'd be like well there is no in fact it's the other way around there is no punishment so why not do it like the actual same argument but just spun the other way. Because one thing I think is funny about this is I could even use an example of an ideology. I don't like Marxism and say I might think Marxism is wrong or evil or anti-human. But here's the thing. I could see examples in communities where some person who was caught up in that maybe naively if I'm being generous to them. They might do things like help the poor, etc. That has its own actual real world community value. That in that moment it's not really about whether the ideology is efficacious. about the fact that it is good to have things like that happen in real life to help people and that's a posit I'll give you an example of why since we referenced the kingdom of heaven one of the reasons why if you ever see medieval portrayals of Christianity it's so intense and overroought it's like flagagillation it's because think about it in those eras you didn't live in some safe bubble where like the police help you don't ever have to have violence you had to engage in violence all the time and you might have killed a person to do it a long haul the the world is so rough it's an appropriate ramping up of this like redemptive force. Whereas, yes, in certain cases, if someone lives in New York in the modern day, maybe they live in a community where they never had to engage with this. So, to them, these are just silly ideas. I think the thing about this movie is it's more about the idea that like whether you believe it is real or not, as in like the ideology, the actual effect on people's lives is inarguably real. I mean, that's why the interesting thing about this movie is to show that like at least in this film, we don't really see like there's no cynicism in the characters is the key thing. You can think it's somehow exploitative or they're exaggerating things, but it does seem like they are earnest. Like in fact, that's the thing about the movie. They didn't really put anyone in who was sort of a COD man, did they? They were all on some level. In fact, the funny thing is even the Billy Bob thought one, like I say, at the end, he actually is earnestly seeking for something. There's a reason why he sort of like hates this church and why he's so specifically against black people.
So, he is he's yearning for some sort of connection or some sort of transformative element in his life.
>> Yeah. Well, he he he is like a symbol of the south though, Billy Bob. He's an unnamed character. He is the he is the standin for the south at large, right?
And we talked about how southern Gothic is based off of the themes of damage from the past echoing into the present.
And that's exactly what he is. In fact, you know, you even argue as well, Monty, isn't the number one thing that's actually been transformative to racism in the south actually Christianity.
That's the one thing that seems to unite the people. Actually, it is famous. You have a lot of churches where people who otherwise divided could go to the same church even that's a real thing. Yeah.
>> You know the racism in the south is illogical, right? And yet he it is an echo of the damage of the past. He is carrying the wounds of the past and he himself is wounded and wants to escape.
He is the he is the fisher king to put this in the >> they can say something's off with him from the second he arrives. There's just something a bit off with this guy, isn't there? like he he is hurt you know the the history has hurt him he didn't do anything right he just carries the burden of this ideology which was born out of this pain of this conflict that was the civil war and you know frankly the horrors of slavery because the people of the south you can say what you want but they were inflicting psychological damage on themselves through the act of slavery you can't just sit there and abuse and enslave other human beings without that doing something to you because again you have to justify it in some way and you say oh these people are inhuman so it's they're just they're animals they're beasts of burden so we can do this to them right and so he is a he is the the legacy of that and yet he himself wants to escape that pain which is what the scene at the end is right and the concept that this kind of preaching and this kind of community building can in fact it gives you hope that the south can be saved >> if you reach out the lord will accept you here today.
>> If you reach out, he'll accept you here and forever more.
He will love you forever, even as we in this church love you now.
>> Yeah. I mean, it it kind of goes un unsaid, but um this also isn't a cynical view of the South. I mean, in both churches, they are racially integrated.
Um and remember, this is this is at a time when we're we're coming out of the civil rights movement. if we're indeed not still in it. And every there is no racial animist. The one the one character we see with having racial animist >> clearly came because he wanted to be welcoming in the church.
>> But he but >> by the way they even explain also that like normally these black people want like a black preacher but they're going to accept you. There's even that like element built into it. Yeah.
>> Absolutely. I mean, again, he explicitly says it, you know, like we talked about at the start, he says, you know, the white people, they think you're black, but the black people know you you're not, but they do sure love the way you preach.
>> And it's like, again, this is what I mean about like if you're not if you've lived in the South and you you've seen it, you know, look, yes, we America still got problems, of course, like we are we are a blip away from a horrifying moment in history, right? like we, you know, we we're we're humans. We move at a snail's pace when it comes to progress on these particular issues. But like I I saw with my own eyes when I was in the south, you know, genuine, you know, community and, you know, like say this this racial integration where this that the the animist isn't there. It's like this is my community, you know, and these are my neighbors and this is my church and you know to present that image I think is very counter to what a lot of people would want you to think America is and what it can be and like especially in the south and so the Billy Bob Thornton character is a very important bit and look I know there's some people who are going to say oh man it's so cheesy it's so cheesy and it's so like cringe or whatever but within the context of the movie I think it's a powerful scene. I don't I don't give a [ __ ] That that is about that is what the Christian faith can be when it's stripped from all of the [ __ ] You've come here to do me harm. I forgive you, you know, and you are welcome, you know? Like that's [ __ ] beautiful, man. That's like that's like just humanitarianism. I've got nothing to do with labels or anything.
>> Behind me behind >> victory. The reason is >> let's praise him today.
>> By the way, I also love that is this is another way the movie is earnest though.
It isn't on the one hand actually being like they're all pieces of [ __ ] but they are simultaneously doing mildly exploitative things like during this amazing redemptive scene. There is that guy on the radio like I'm just going to see if I can get I think I think I see a T for >> I actually think that is that meta commentary about how the media interfaces with religion cuz also it it's true like we all love that redemptive story, right? Well, how could we share that? How how would people know about it if you weren't there to see it?
And obviously this is what the media does. the media exploits these moments that are um that that that are uh earnest and that are organic and they add that level of artifice.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, >> I mean the same guy remember on the radio earlier when he's like going through the whole rules of what you can't do like you said. Then at the end he sort of we got to get some like uh you know some fundraising going some bad like that like again it's always baked in there. But what I love about it is it's not that they're all total frauds.
It's that like why not do both? Why don't we do some religious [ __ ] and then also make some money too. It's like it's it's actually quite an honest sort of like that is everyday way of thinking in it.
>> Yeah, that's what I mean. It doesn't it doesn't flinch away from some of the spikier aspects to just the reality of running a church.
>> Exactly. They didn't pretend like they're all just got totally altruistic and they take nobody for themselves. No, they they show I nearly forgot I'm wrong that quitting school because I didn't like recess is not the best line in the movie. The best line in the movie is when he goes to try and win his church back in that suit and they go, "Well, when it comes to voting, they'll all see that you put that $50 bill in the collection plate." And he goes, "It was a $100 bill, man." That's the best line.
That is the best line because it shows the [ __ ] you know, just the inherent pettiness that he can't quite escape.
>> What happened, son?
>> I'm no longer your local bastard what it is.
>> You should have showed him with that $50 bill. Praise God. I sure like that.
Here's 100.
>> By the way, even that scene also shows kind of what the movie is about cuz think about the premise if people forget the story order. He's already secretly on some like hostile takeover in Wall Street being voted out of his church.
I know the church that he started has been given to his like strange wife and this douchebag. Even the worst he has to be like a youth pastor. I want a baseball bat this [ __ ] in Minecraft. Obviously, even I hate this guy. so smug and young and you know and he's even doing that thing I hate as well. This is where for once I can align with potential drunk like [ __ ] doing fathers where it's like that whole thing like is everything okay here like who the [ __ ] are you pal I'm the father even I'm feeling that righteous indignation I have kids so anyway but it's the whole scene where when he goes back in right logically they should just be like you're voted out get out but because he comes right in the moment when they're getting all the like fervor going and they're getting that singing he just vibe checks them all bro he vi he literally dances his way in gets on stage does some like godfather the two like Fredo like [ __ ] on the guy he's about to wreck later. The [ __ ] youth pastor does the whole thing with the money and actually as you see he chooses not to take advantage cuz he has to skip to town but actually like he basically could already have started another bloody church there. This guy has mad charisma.
>> Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.
And look, just to start winding down, >> he just mocks the shell of the mold and his wife's even playing the organ or whatever.
>> Yeah, exactly, dude.
>> And as you say, that's the moment where you know the heart of this movie because as soon as he when he's ever dressed up to the nines, you could easily go into the fullies a con man there. Of course, he even looks like it when he's got the [ __ ] white suits. Marvelous, isn't it? You're just ready for some crazy [ __ ] to come out of his mouth. Of course.
>> So, yeah. For me, probably the best Dosstoyvki movie that has nothing to do with Dosstoyvki call.
>> That's a good one.
>> Yeah, it it's definitely got that crime and punishment vibe and um and and just the meditative nature of it is really amazing. Now, it's the segment where we have to do the Roger Eert review.
>> Okay. Right. So, >> which side did he come down on? I think it's implied he's a Robert Deval fan, though, isn't he? By the way, I have learned about Roger Eert. He's also mad, but if he just likes an act, imaginingly their films are all good. I know it's way that works in it, Roger.
>> Yeah. Here, here, here we go. Uh, >> David literally hates apparently.
>> Four stars. Four stars.
>> Okay, that's maximum rate.
>> Yeah. Four out of four for him. Uh, and he says, uh, I I'll just read you the uh, summary at the end. Many of the scenes develop naturally instead of along the lines of obligatory cliches. A confrontation with his wife, for example, doesn't end as we think it might. A face down with a redneck racist played by Billy Bob Horton develops along completely unexpected lines. But the Apostle EF is not easy to read.
Duval's screenplay does what great screenwriting is supposed to do and surprises us with additional observations and re revelations in every scene. Perhaps it's not unexpected that Duval had to write, direct, and star in this film and then round up all of the financing himself. There aren't that many people in the film industry gifted enough to make such a film, and few are still with the courage to deal honestly with a subject, both spiritual and complex. Simple-minded spirituality is no problem. Consider the market for angels right now. I don't know what that's a reference to at the time he's writing this.
>> There were a lot of Angels movies in the '9s.
>> Oh, Nick Cage and all that [ __ ] Yeah, good call. It >> even got to like Angels in the Outfield.
It got so ridiculous for a while. There were tons of these [ __ ] garbage movies in the '90s. The Apostle is a lesson in how movies can escape convention and penetrate the hearts of rare characters.
>> This might be his best review yet, guys.
>> That's a that's a bang on.
>> Yeah. Worrying worrying times in which we live that it takes the greatness of Robert Duval to even almost like the preacher to stop.
>> He didn't even say anything weird. He was actually right for the right reasons.
>> Yes. Duval just put his hand on his shoulder and said, "I was a worse rider than you in my time, Mr. E. My taste was worse than yours when I was a young man.
I'm Roger E. But Sarah, I'm embarrassed.
I'm embarrassed. Don't be embarrassed.
The Holy Ghost is with us, Roger. Write an earnest review.
>> Are you ready to accept Blue Velvet in your heart? Whatever it was.
>> Are you ready David Lynch in your heart?
>> It's just a David Lynch angle that lives red in my head. The idea like he could only Wasn't it only like Moholland Drive he liked or something? Something magical like that, wasn't it? Like what are you talking about, bro? Yeah, >> it was like basically hated on Lynch until Moholland drive which is like >> all of just the as we talked about in the Lynch allynchon but um but anyway there you go. I do want to >> I do want to complain about the end a little bit. I will start by saying something I really liked about the end which is that in the final scene in the church is that one thing it's a really subtle detail but I think is again adds so much interesting psychology to Sunny's character is that while he's preaching he has his hand up and he's still wearing his wedding ring >> after all this [ __ ] >> he is still by the end of this movie he's slept with another woman uh he has murdered somebody his marriage is over and yet he is still in his mind in his marriage, >> right? Nobody in town knows he's married, right? He he just came he blew in from out of town. Nobody even knows his real name. He's just the Apostle EF.
Uh and I think that says a lot about who this man is.
>> He told his real name to Miranda Richardson just before she reconciled with her husband.
>> Said to call Miss Sunny.
>> Um >> and she said, "You come in and sleep with me on the third date."
>> That's what she said. That was that was clearly like a very deliberate choice by Duval. Yes. Um and it's it's like this this film is full of really interesting details like that because he would have written that way and when he dressed himself as a director in his costume that day, he would have done that very >> I think it's entirely conceivable he just doesn't believe in the concept of divorce and possibly and and probably has an idea about marriage that even if I go, you know, slinging dick all around town, like it doesn't matter. like we're still married. Like you've got to >> maybe maybe he doesn't maybe he thinks that this is another ward against his own darkness and that you know by wearing the ring he is less likely to do the things that he does.
>> I mean it's another element of temptation, isn't it? Which he obviously acknowledges is something he's susceptible to. Yep.
>> So I I found it very interesting because in my mind it says that he uses his the concept of his marriage just like he uses the concept of his faith which is as these magical tools to keep him from doing horrible things uh potentially or to keep him on the right track right to keep his mind in the right place. It's a physical reminder that when you look at your hand you remember it every time and that other people also know it, right?
It's a symbol I am taken.
>> You you know this is not I shouldn't be doing these things. you should not be doing these things with with me. Um, he doesn't take it off to seduce this other woman. Right? So anyway, I found that very interesting. Now, for all the layers and nuance of this movie, the ending is really Hollywood hokey. And I'm not talking about the chain gang scene. I did enjoy that. But the concept >> You mean the idea they don't arrest him and they let him keep doing like the whole Exact thing. Okay.
>> Yeah. My god. And Robert Duval, you could just see that.
>> And he keeps extending it over. You keep thinking it's going to end every last like 20 minutes, man.
>> I know. It's true. It does last a long time.
>> And and you can see he's like, I'm going to win me an Oscar right now. Here we go. Here's the epic scene.
>> Like every person in the church on >> the whole the Gogggins guy on his way out the door has like a conversion in Christ. All right. He's pretty over the top. I know what you mean. And you nailed it by saying that. That was the scene like, "Right, listen. Now is when I really go full both barrels time to get that [ __ ] best acting performance." You I know what you mean.
Like get everyone get out the way. Give me the ball. I need the last shot.
Michael, >> dude, I could I could also just imagine him directly like, "All right, Walton, now cry."
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> Cry for me, Walton. Give me something to work with here, Walton.
>> I mean, Walton [ __ ] gives him someone to work with. I mean, like, >> I know that guy's talent. Richard, >> you don't you don't have to write this film in this way. It's so cheesy. It's like, you hit you hit the right word. It's hy.
It's hokey. You hit the right word. You hit the right word the first time. It isn't cheesy. Cheesy implies predictability to it all. I don't think that's there. I I I think it's hy. I think it has to be. I think if you want to bring the movie together, there's got to be, you know, there's you can't just have him arrested in the night in the church not know where he's going. You also can't have him not speak to the congregation directly. You also can't have him not demonstrate how [ __ ] sad he is to be leaving these people behind this new community. You have to show these things. And yes, >> Richard, even do that in five minutes.
>> You know, do that in five minutes.
>> Even the setup though, it's literally you, she's his wife, his ex-wife is in Texas and the radio crackles and it's suddenly his voice from this tiny radio station.
>> Serendipity. It God's done this. God's done that. It's it's he's got to get to the place he's meant to be. That's the whole thing. The place he's meant to be is in [ __ ] prison talking to those people on the chain gang helping.
>> I just think he can find better ways to end this.
>> I know what Richard means though cuz I also did take it the same way. I actually did take it the way I think the character himself would, which is actually his mission there is over. He got it all up and running. The whole church going he even literally helped re like [ __ ] pave over racial divide in the community and also saved like a good man. the first man he met when he came to town. This mechanic guy like it actually is sort of time for Poochie to go back to his home planet. It just is >> correct. Yes. But it just it's just like so funny because it just keeps dragging on and on.
>> It does last. I will say that cop and then you >> just look at the cop and he knows what's happening and then there are more cop cars and they're getting out with all their guns and you hold the police.
>> It is like the Blues Brothers.
>> He could be armed and dangerous. I'm like come on stop. I do love how many cop cars there are outside eventually.
>> He could be armed and dangerous, but let him finish the speech, please.
>> Come on. We don't need to hear the cop radio. Give me a [ __ ] break. Like, it is >> I mean, he could he could be armed and dangerous. He could be.
>> Yeah. But Richard, here's the point is that this actually takes away from the rest of the movie because the rest of it is so subtle and then they're just like it turns into this weird [ __ ] police situation that feels like ripped out of a crappy Hollywood movie.
>> I mean, I would I would rather they shaved off if again, if I was fixing the movie, and by the way, this is like an eight out of 10 movie for me, right? If I was fixing this movie, what I would do is I would definitely shave down the end. Um, and so and I I would rather have him, you know, tried and going to prison and just I'd rather have a bit more than a postredit scene of him on the chain guy.
>> Yes.
>> That also felt bad cuz it was like a throwaway to the credit.
>> It's like they ran out of time, >> but I think it's really important.
>> Yeah, exactly. I I think that scene is arguably the most important scene in the last third of the movie, right? So, it's like it definitely should be given more prominence. So, I agree with you there.
the end, the end has problems. But I also think, and this is always important when we talk about movies, does the does all of what is built up to the end, whether the end is overly long or overly saccharine or silly or whatever it bombastic, whatever it might be, is it earned? Is it earned? That's the question you have to ask yourself. And it is. It's an earned ending. I definitely want to see him go. I don't care if it's 20 minutes long. I don't give a [ __ ] I I want to listen to this [ __ ] give his one last sermon to this church that I have watched him build I have watched him build a bus. I watched him paint this [ __ ] church the walls. I watched him worked in a diner to earn the money to buy the paint. Yeah, he gets it. He gets to do it. So that that's how I always feel about the movie. And also as well, listen, it's 20 minutes of Dval going [ __ ] nuts as an actor. Yes, please.
Like so. Um yeah, I don't have the same feelings about the ending as you. Like I would change little bits. I would script doctor it a little bit, chop it down here, add this bit here, make the uh you know uh uh epilog you know a bit bit more focused on but I mean like these are minor criticisms to me in my opinion.
>> Did you actually overall like this movie Monty?
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean obviously I think this is really nuanced and like I said it's very it reminds me a lot of Faulner in very good ways and I think the character is really interesting. Is this movie worth seeing? Absolutely. Duval's performance is amazing. I think the psychology of this character the fact that Duval also wrote it means that he can play this role with unusual nuance and I think it takes a very talented person to write a character this strongly literary and fascinating while also being able to play it. Not too many people can do both of those things, right? But if you ca if you can do both of those things, you have better insight into the character than an actor who couldn't do that, >> right? And when I saw like the just IMDb blur what the movie is before we watched I remember thinking like I wonder if this is going to be like look I could I I went in thinking I'm assuming since Robert Deval directed his performance is going to be good. But is this going to be an interesting movie? Like the premise didn't look that interesting to me. Like again I thought I'd seen this a million times. was what a guy was like some religious figure goes to a small community and like but that I get that feels like a hackne cliche plot but the way it played out was so different to me especially like I said the pacing and stuff was really unique and I and I made me realize how many movies because I always tell people I'm really good at guessing what's going to happen but it's just because I'm really good at part recognition I've just seen a million movies and TV shows so I know what a a good writer or a bad writer might do next so once I identify what sort of story is I can usually tell I couldn't tell with this like it every scene sometimes would play out and I'd be like wonder what the function of that was actually is this lean into where I was and I was often kind of thrown off and so what I would say is I actually think this is the sort of movie despite the fact all the comments suggest otherwise this is the sort of movie that I think we made this series for the whole point of foreplay to me isn't really that these are the four most famous movies in a genre that you've definitely seen so you don't have to watch them just listen to us talk about them I get that you want to hear us talk about old movies you've already seen because that's like a cool angle in the same way as we jokingly want to know what Robert Roger Eert thinks about every film even once when he was dead already but at the same time like I also want it to be just like I was for this. You get introduced to a movie you probably never would have watched otherwise but actually it's like secretly fire or it's got some element that's really compelling but but with the bazillion movies out there would you ever get to this on your own? Maybe not.
So I think it's kind of cool that people got introduced especially I think it's also so far the best example of Robert Dval not just in one scene getting to act. He gets the whole movie to [ __ ] showcase his skills on this one. One of the things you people need to be cognizant of when we're doing this arc and why we want to showcase Robert Duval's talent is as crazy as this sounds, he only won one Oscar despite being nominated seven times. Right.
Right. And remember, he's nominated for things we've covered like The Godfather and and all of that and Apocalypse Now, which I think we'll we'll probably do at some point. Um, but he won with his first nomination and that was in 83.
So all of the fantastic late 80s and 90s and early 2000s output this guy did that he was getting nominated for. He never won. He didn't win for this. He didn't win for the great Santini. He didn't win for a civil action. Got nominated for all these [ __ ] performances.
And it's like how can a guy this good be like almost like the the the the naily man of Hollywood, you know? That that is a question people need to explore because I saw a lot of people paying lip service to Robert Duval when he passed.
Uh, but not many people actually, I think, have have seen his real movies.
His real movie isn't The Godfather. His real movie isn't Apocalypse. Now, those are memorable standout roles where he adds texture and and and and quotables.
This is a real Robert Duval movie.
>> This and and this movie without his performance is [ __ ] >> I mean, this is this isn't even a movie without his performance. I mean, he's inextricably, >> isn't he in like every Satan, too? He's just he just dominates this film.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's he's inextricably young to it. Would it would it be would it be [ __ ] like Robert Duval like halfway through got cold feet and thought I can't produce, write and direct and act and this is an intense part. I don't know who you would put into a role like this. I don't know who could genuinely do the ups and the downs to this degree.
Who would have been a contemporary of Robert Duval in 1996 when this was being filmed? I don't know who it would be.
suggestions in the chat perhaps, but this just feels like, you know, that that the way he does the the mania that comes from genuinely believing in the Lord and the hype preaching to to quiet conversations with God in a bedroom to whispering to his ex-wife trying, you know, it's a masterclass in range. And uh, you know, yeah, absolutely should have had this is the potentially the biggest Oscar robbery of all time. That also reminds me another thing we didn't mention was it has those almost like Terrence Malikesque moments where there'll just be someone he'll be looking contemplative like by the way a beautiful scene in the south like a beautiful orange okra sunset coming down like the atmosphere is cool and it'll have you know someone speaking lightly over the top like his wife saying something and something from the Bible or something like but there is like a malic thing of it like it has a reflective component. It's kind of it's quite artistic actually considering the material is very much about just poor people and what their lives are like.
It's also got like an artistry to it as a film I think as well.
>> I mean, put it put it this way. If you imagine it like something um like Right. Okay. So, let's take Deval out and let's just have it be a story about a community that a preacher comes to and you film it like like Nashville or something like that. I don't think it would be a [ __ ] movie. I just think it wouldn't be a great movie.
And I think it is I think it touches upon greatness simply because of Robert Dubal. I think he elevates it.
Absolutely. But uh you know I think but I think it's a profoundly interesting and powerful movie particularly if you you know aren't used to it. Like there'll be there'll be an entire generation of people who listen to this podcast who have never seen like an earnest exploration of what Pentecostal religion can look like, how important it could be to communities, you know, all all the stuff that gets served up about the South these days is if you're religious, you're a fraud. if you're white, you're racist, you know, and it's it's if you're a Republican, you're evil. And it's like, guys, it's way more [ __ ] There's so much more texture to like >> especially cuz like like we're talking about with this movie, the other thing that people do when they do a reductive reading like that is they imply you yourself believe you're secretly evil, but you get away with it because you're Republican. That as a Christian, you know, it's all fake. No, no. At least give the person the [ __ ] theory of mind that they actually believe. At least you can have your own interpretation. You could think it's wrong, whatever, misguided, but at least give them like the [ __ ] at least allow them to you actually believe they could be honest in saying they believe it.
>> Yeah. And >> that's quite that's quite a bold move.
>> Yeah. And and that's what I mean. And it's like you this is what I always say.
You don't need to ever like you don't need to lay on thick. People are inherently flawed. All you ever have to do if you want to get this is the this is the irony of like creating nuance.
All you have to do is just think about you know yourself or a friend. You know, you think about the goods. You think about the bad. We've all done bad things. We've all done good things.
We've been on the right side of arguments, the wrong side of arguments.
We believed in some [ __ ] because we've been deceived. We believed in some [ __ ] because we weren't [ __ ] deceived. We just believed in some [ __ ] because we were ignorant. We've also believed in something and been proven, you know, absolutely correct. We were right the whole time when everyone was telling us we were wrong. We've all had these common experiences. The problem is Hollywood has no faith in the audience. And so there is no there is no nuance in storytelling anymore. They just need to give you caricatures.
Here's a caricature. this guy there's there isn't any characters in this movie everyone's complicated every even like his ex-wife for for instance you know she herself is engaging in infidelity no doubt after he's done it many many times but also you know she subtly implies abuse but I also don't think right up until the point he domes her new bow I don't think she has any real malice towards him I don't think that >> way I don't know about you but even even when he did that call where he didn't say anything and she guesses it's possibly him there was even almost like a concern in that like I didn't take that as terrified. It was almost like she almost wanted him to just say like, "Oh, like, can I come back?" or something weird like that.
>> Yeah. There was this weird pregnant pause in the scene. Yeah.
>> Um, so it's like, you know, that's just I I hate it. I I hate that there's this >> It's just refreshing that it's like an earnest movie in it. It genuinely is.
>> I I hate that there's an entire section of American people that are unfairly maligned and unfairly represented, unfairly represented because of how movies are made. And I wish more people could explore the modern south with like a fresh set of eyes, >> you know, like that's just how I feel about it. I, you know, I might have lived in Atlanta, which is a very um, you know, obviously it's it's overwhelmingly blue in in the city, >> but you don't have to go too far to find the exact type of places and exact type of communities. And, you know, I've been, like say I've been, you know, [ __ ] Alabama, Mississippi, Tallaladega, you know, been all all of these types of places. And I'm sad I don't live there. for me like living in Atlanta that was the best time of my life. That was the that was it felt like home real quick. I loved all of those people. Um so yeah, you know, I I I I hope people can just embrace this movie, see it as earnest. Don't worry, there is no rug pull coming. You know, Southerners are indeed people too. Who who knew Hollywood, right? Um and uh and it's just a a fantastic exploration of the parameters of faith and how even uh the greatest sinner can can be redeemed by something beyond themselves, you know.
>> All right. Well, that'll do it for the apostle. We will see you guys next week for a civil action and then open range after that. See you then.
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