Debate on the Origin of Religion - Jay Dyer

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:02]Hello. Hello Jay, how are you doing?

[00:00:04]Yeah, what's up? How you doing? Am I audible? Yes, sir.

[00:00:09]Okay. Okay. So, I I don't want to assume you hold any belief. So, um are you a Christian? It's better I find it's better to ask questions rather than to assume views or positions.

[00:00:20]Yeah, Orthodox Christianity.

[00:00:23]Okay. Okay. So, um So, is this alternatively at the same time going out to some radio station?

[00:00:29]Not that I mind being heard. I just out of curiosity.

[00:00:32]Yeah, we're on uh WWKQ105 out of Nashville. No, I'm joking.

[00:00:38]There's no radio. It's on my YouTube channel. So, it's not on It's not on radio. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

[00:00:42]All right. So, I have some um questions. So, is this um the Is the reason you do this um and I do some mild activism on my page as well. Not that I'm plugging myself or getting people to follow me. But, is Is your main thing here that you want to bring people to Christ or Christianity or get them to change their mind?

[00:01:06]We do a lot of things over here. We do movie analysis. We do geopolitical analysis. Uh not really activism, more of a intellectual educational approach to questions.

[00:01:17]Uh and then part of what we do is uh debates and apologetics to defend Orthodox Christianity. So, yes, that's part of what we do.

[00:01:24]Sure. Sure. And um I think So, with me, I think it's good to um change minds cuz I I think, you know, every now and then if you change your mind, then you remember that you have one. But, um So, I think you would agree with me that Yeah, I've changed my mind many times. Sure.

[00:01:42]Yeah. So, in the spirit of it's good to change your mind, what would possibly make you change your mind that Christianity is the true religion?

[00:01:51]I know I'm putting you on the spot a bit, but No, I don't care. You can say whatever you want. It's open forum.

[00:01:55]Anybody can make any challenges or questions. change your opinion that Christianity is the truth.

[00:02:02]Um, I think if there was another worldview that was better at giving an account for the fundamental aspects of reality, ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, uh, or if there was some sort of, you know, massive internal contradiction within Christianity that was demonstrable, that might make me question it or rethink it, but um, you know, I've not heard those things yet.

[00:02:28]Sure. Um, um, I mean, my position is just to be open. I'm an agnostic atheist, so my own take is that, um, it's, um, I mean, sometimes people think agnostic and atheist are the answer to the same question, whereas we're agnostic cuz not gnostic by definition is to do with knowledge, so we're agnostic. We don't know if there's a god or not. So, theism and atheism, those are positions on whether you believe it's true. Have you ever If you've heard this point? So, I won't be repeating myself if you've if you've heard it before, so.

[00:02:58]Yeah, I understand the difference between the terms, so.

[00:03:02]I thought you were going to say something. I said yes, I understand the difference between the term atheist and agnostic, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I would say for me, I am about 0.0001% convinced that there is a supernatural deity, um, presently existing. So, So, what I find interesting is just from looking at religions and god is that, um, so, not every religion has a god. I think about 2/3 of religion have a god, and about 1/3 of religions are atheistic, i.e., Jainism or Buddhism.

[00:03:36]Um, but what I find interesting is that every religion has an afterlife. So, for me, the question isn't that should be asked is not whether a god exists. I think the question is of psychology, so I I what religion does, I mean, you may disagree with this opinion, I think the idea that you have an afterlife is the greatest marketing gimmick ever made. So, this um and you can come back on this with your own thoughts. It's the idea that oh, you're so special. You're so super silly, yes. You're so amazing. You know, after you died, that's not the end.

[00:04:11]There's a continuation. There's a There's a um cinematic universe where you're involved, where you know, films are made for 80 years or uh for infinity. So, I think it appeals to our human ego where we want to think, "Oh, I can't just [snorts] die and become mega buffet. You know, I'm going to be I'm going to you know, I have to get this sort of VIP ticket to this eternal theme park of paradise and it's going to be wonderful and I'm going to see my grandparents in young age." And you know, it's it's like a utopia. So, I I think that is That's very appealing like So, yeah. Can I make a Can I make a statement?

[00:04:50]So, let me just say one last thing then Thomas. Thank you for the time. So, I think that's very appealing cuz the idea that you just die and then you get eaten by worms, it's it's sort of minimizing yourself as you are. But, yeah, you So, I'll come to the question now. So, would you If you was being I mean, I don't see no reason why I shouldn't be honest. You seem like a sincere person. So, would you say that that appeal of yes, Jay will have an afterlife if I believe. Do you think that is some level of your reason for belief?

[00:05:24]So, what you did and I don't object to you asking those kinds of questions, but Sure. what you said was really just a psychological report and an emotional appeal, neither of which constitute an argument or have anything to do with whether religion and the afterlife are true or not.

[00:05:40]Okay.

[00:05:41]Well, I I don't I don't I don't I'm I'm no reason to think it's true because I have seen >> Okay, but wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. But, I grant I understand. So, you're I understand that you question theology, religion, the afterlife.

[00:05:52]That's fine. But, the argumentation that you gave was a psychological report of where you think the the desire for that to be the case comes from, from human desire and ego, and what we call an emotional appeal that people believe this because they want to and they're But, none of that is an argument.

[00:06:15]No, this I'm saying it's a reasoning.

[00:06:17]I'm not saying I'm not saying why you should believe or not, but what I want to know is that appeal like the idea that So, let's put it this way. My response to you is that I believe that God's existence is objectively provable and that there's a logical philosophical argumentation that can demonstrate that.

[00:06:35]So, what all of what you said is neat, but doesn't have anything to do with whether or not God exists or whether or not there's an afterlife. You just gave, again, an emotional appeal, which is a fallacy.

[00:06:48]No, I'm saying the appeal of emotion is to the theist, not to me, because he appeals to that person.

[00:06:56]No, it doesn't. That's a Do you understand what a fallacy is? It's a An emotional appeal is a fallacy. I don't know what a fallacy but I think the fallacy is for the theist because it's not a fallacy for a theist because it's not an argument against the position.

[00:07:09]It's just a You're reporting about how you think the beliefs arises, but that has nothing to do with whether it's true or false.

[00:07:17]Okay, but what what I'm saying I mean I I would talk about I've seen people die and they pretty much stayed dead. So, there's no reason to I'm not seeing I mean you believe in Christianity so So, what we only believe the things that we've So, we No, I don't believe it purely on faith.

[00:07:37]So, you only believe the things that are what, locally, visibly, phenomenally present to you at the at this moment?

[00:07:45]Well, when it when it comes to objective claims such as good, um then all all and often I've I mean, it doesn't make sense if you look at it from a scientific point of view because anyone who's anyone who's going into a neurology clinic can see that a brain that is slightly damaged, we lose all our primary senses, our memories are affected. So, the idea that if you've got a body rotting in the ground for thousands of years, and then it's going to resurrect and it that person is going to come back in their in their original form with the same personality, that just there is no sort of rational basis for thinking that.

[00:08:21]Well, I but I mean, what you consider rational and what you consider possible is already based on your presuppositions and your worldview. And so, if you're committed to a naturalistic worldview, then I need to know how you can make knowledge claims at all given your naturalism.

[00:08:38]Okay, well, we make knowledge claims through I mean, there's um um empirical claims, there's there's there's ways to there's ways to test like um I mean, if someone is pregnant, you can do a pregnancy test and it's pretty much yes or no. And then you can also do sort of like ultrasound or whatever and you can see the embryo. So, do you So, you're you're saying as an empiricist, so you think that basically all human knowledge comes from sense data?

[00:09:04]When it comes to objective claims, yeah.

[00:09:06]Mhm.

[00:09:07]How do you know How do you know the How do you know the claim all knowledge comes through sense data is true from sense data?

[00:09:16]Because it's it's not circular reasoning. So, for example, if someone writes in a book that evolution is true, um the um uh that would not mean evolution is true. You can um or for example, if someone says coronavirus is real, it won't be true because it's written in a book by epidemiologist, it will be true because you can go and to uh Yeah, but I'm asking question.

[00:09:39]You don't understand You're not You don't understand the question I'm asking. It's No, no, no. You made a universal You made a universal claim. All knowledge is from sense data, and I'm saying that it's fundamentally contradictory, and I can show you that because you can't show that proposition to be true from sense data. There's no sense data that tells you that all knowledge comes from sense data, and that's your governing presupposition.

[00:10:06]But then I I I would not regard faith as knowledge. Did you not hear what That has nothing to do with the claim I just criticized your belief, your claim. How is that criticism not devastating to your epistemology?

[00:10:20]Well, then I'm not here to talk about my epistemology because I'm in this universe of me and my things, yeah.

[00:10:26]You're making knowledge claims that are the basis for why God doesn't exist, and I want to know how you have a justification for knowledge claims at all, and you just gave me a big contradiction. So, I'm not getting how you have knowledge at all.

[00:10:40]I don't understand which way way way you saw the contradiction. All knowledge comes from sense data, you said. That proposition itself, which is a Okay, all objective claims come from sense data. That proposition itself is not a truth that you can find in sense data. You think it's an objectively true statement, don't you?

[00:11:00]Yep. Is it found in Is that true?

[00:11:02]Are you listening to me? You people never listen, they just blow past. Is the proposition itself in sense data?

[00:11:10]Sorry?

[00:11:12]The proposition itself, all objective knowledge comes Can you not answer the question? Can't understand. It's a very simple argument. Do you know David Hume is? It's a critique of David Hume.

[00:11:24]Okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm not familiar with David Hume. You said all objective knowledge comes from sense data. Do you want me to ask you for the fifth time?

[00:11:32]All objective knowledge comes from sense data. Where in sense data is that proposition itself?

[00:11:40]Well, you can see you can there's a way to you can test it. So, for example, I had COVID and then I did >> The proposition itself. I'm not asking about You're not answering the question.

[00:11:51]It's not verified by me testing it. So, you can do it. You can test me for COVID and How do you test that proposition?

[00:11:58]I'm not talking about COVID, dude. What are you talking about? COVID. The proposition itself.

[00:12:03]>> an example. I'm giving an example.

[00:12:04]That's not this proposition. I don't think you understand what we're I do understand. You don't understand. The proposition itself, all knowledge that's objective comes from sense data. That proposition, do you understand that's a sentence claim a proposition Do you know what a proposition is?

[00:12:18]Yeah. That proposition, not COVID, that proposition.

[00:12:23]Where in sense data is that proposition?

[00:12:27]Stop interrupting me until you answer the question. I'm going to boot you.

[00:12:30]You're not going to answer the question.

[00:12:31]How many times must I ask people these questions? You know I'm unable to understand. So, you're putting on me.

[00:12:37]You're deflecting. I'm not deflecting because it's a battle of worldviews and who can give an account for epistemology. That's my argument. My argument for theism is the one that gives an account for epistemology. You made a really big claim. All knowledge that's objective comes from sense data.

[00:12:53]All you got to do is tell me where in sense data that proposition is known and it can't be known because it's a universal claim. You don't have universal sense data. You can't explain it if you're unable to understand. You can't explain anything. You're not answering anything. This is always what you people do. It's a very simple Is it just ignorance of philosophy? I'm not trying to be mean to you. It's just like, do you not understand the question that I'm asking you? Can you repeat Tell you what, can you repeat to me Can you repeat to me disagree. We have to agree to disagree because you think I don't understand the question Well, can you Can you Can you clear that up for me and repeat?

[00:13:28]If you're not going to answer the question then I'm going to boot you because you're not It's Look, all you have to do is just repeat what our You don't have an answer.

[00:13:39]I'm not Bro, I'm not worried about looking stupid, dude.

[00:13:42]You made a claim. I'm just asking you to explain that claim giving your system.

[00:13:45]Do you not understand that?

[00:13:53]So, you just said that you don't know about David Hume, but you think that this is my problem of comprehension.

[00:14:01]I know, exactly. So, it's not a problem of comprehension.

[00:14:08]On my end. Classical quotes.

[00:14:13]It never fails when we have this question come up, no matter how many times you ask a very simple question about a universal epistemic claim.

[00:14:23]They will not answer. They blow past it.

[00:14:26]If you're want If you want me to believe your empiricism and your skepticism, fine.

[00:14:32]You have a progenitor who is better and more eloquent at you in this position. His name's David Hume.

[00:14:39]You should go read him.

[00:14:40]So, I know David Hume's argument and you're just repeating it and you don't even understand that you made a universal claim.

[00:14:47]And all I'm asking for is if all knowledge comes from sense data or all objective knowledge comes from sense data, then in your system, that proposition itself has to also come from sense data because that's a knowledge claim. This is a very simple argument.

[00:15:03]And to tell me I don't comprehend your answer, you didn't give an answer.

[00:15:06]And you didn't understand what I'm asking.