Implications of a Holy (Just) War

Ajouté : 2026-05-30

[00:00:03]Love the AC >> for THE LOVE OF GOD. LOVEACE.

[00:00:16]>> Hey everybody, welcome to the AC podcast. I'm your host today, Steve. I'm the Alberta director. For those of you who don't know me, I'm joined today by my two wonderful colleagues, uh, Wes Huff and Ben McDonald. How are you guys doing?

[00:00:30]Good. How you doing?

[00:00:32]>> Doing all right. Doing all right.

[00:00:33]>> How you doing?

[00:00:34]>> How you doing? Hey, Steve. How you doing?

[00:00:37]>> Hey, Ste. How you doing?

[00:00:40]>> Uh, let's see what I have to live with.

[00:00:42]>> Wes and I do this every, for some reason, you put us in the same room, even if we're virtually in the same room, and accents will come out. So, we hope not to hope not to offend the Italian population, but or anyone from Jersey with our >> bad mafia accent.

[00:00:59]>> Well, while we're massacring accents, um, why don't you set up the conversation for us?

[00:01:05]>> Sure. Speaking of massacres, actually, um, what we want to talk about today is actually of a bit of a gruesome nature.

[00:01:13]Uh so in the last number of years there have been several wars that gained a lot of attention. Now those you know we have something of a cultural attention deficit disorder it seems like because we eventually forget about a lot of these but these conflicts for people on the ground who are impacted by them.

[00:01:34]It's it's very much a current reality and it's still going on. And this question every now and then comes up for Christians especially like what do we make of violence and conflict anything from smallcale okay if someone breaks into our home like what are what should be our response as Christians to something bigger scale like fullout wars um and so we just wanted to take some time today and talk about this so Ben why Why don't I throw it your way first? Because in our conversation about conflict, war, violence, we often hear various terms like the just war theory or you know is murder versus killing and all those kinds of things. So let's start by just even talking about what just war theory is because that one almost always comes up.

[00:02:35]>> Yeah. So yeah, typically people uh attribute the just war tradition u mainly to Augustine as the father of it.

[00:02:43]I mean there were other voices but Augustine seems to have given us one of the more robust definitions. It's then later people like Aquinus then uh uh continue to expand upon it and then in the modern age you have people like Reinhold Neber who made a very big impact and more recently voices like John Howard Yoder and Stanley Howerwas have had a lot to say about this idea of just war. The tradition as a whole some people when they hear about it you'll hear these Latin terms like you said bellum which is basically how do Christians justify getting into a conflict uh how do we justify the actions that are used within the actual war itself and then there's one called uh use postbellum or use postbellow uh which is after the fact you know how do we how do we then remedy the situation then do you help these uh nations for instance reestablish their governments are you putting things in place and so it's about practical considerations for is there a way Christians are able to actually engage in conflict in any way and and I think I just begin by saying the chief interests there it's important when you go back to somebody like Augustine uh he saw the idea of just war as being um aligned with the virtue of keratas meaning it was actually because of love of neighbor that we could even begin to have this conversation. So I think that's a good starting place at least for understanding some of the some of the things that are being discussed.

[00:04:12]C >> can I just highlight though as we are moving forward in this discussion here.

[00:04:18]I think if nothing else I know there were a lot of terms in in Latin phrases and things like that thrown out there.

[00:04:24]But if nothing else I think this should give us a sense that this has been an ongoing conversation in the church for a long time going back to Augustine. But certainly like you pointed up and it goes back even farther. And so this is something this is not a recent conversation. This is not a recent discussion. We have a long tradition of these discussions. So I think that should be a and and there have been various um conclusions drawn from this. So I think we should probably acknowledge that as we move on. Wes, did you have something you wanted to add to that?

[00:04:58]Yeah, I think I think framing the context the reason why Augustine starts talking about just war is that you have the historical context of the third and fourth centuries where soldiers would come to Christian clergy and intellectuals seeking advice regarding their careers cuz there was this genuation within the ancient world of could you be a soldier? Could you be within like the the army and also be a Christian? And so we have these conversations. You actually have records of a Roman tribune writing to people like Augustine and asking whether it's possible to provide state security in a Christian way. And so even if we think of Augustine's seminal work city of God, he writes that just after the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths in 410. And so he doesn't write to make sense of the violence viewed but to point out that no earthly realm not even a Christian empire could be an internal eternal city. So Rome was thought of for a long time as the eternal city. And Augustine points out that the only eternal city will be in the hereafter when all things are made new. And so he writes in the context of, you know, this very complicated political system where you have a a state that is uh very heavy-handed with the what is still the Roman Empire. And then you have this situation where Rome has been attacked.

[00:06:26]And so there's uh this kind of warlike mentality. We live in an era where we just have a we've had a lot of peace for a long time. Like I even was listening to a standup comedian recently and they were talking about like how much money do we put into our defense system and he's like well you know we're not really defending all that much these days. It's kind of it feels like we're we're funding more offense. You know we haven't had a homec court game for a long time kind of thing. Um but Augustine writes this and he he's kind of I think trying to give parameters of how we understand things like self-defense or what do we do if you threaten my neighbor? Do I have the right to intervene?

[00:07:12]>> Right?

[00:07:12]>> You've not been moved by persuasion in the conversation and so what do I do?

[00:07:19]Well, Augustine says actually I must force you to stop. And that's kind of the the parameters of what are later articulated in just war theory.

[00:07:27]>> Before we move on any further, I just kind of want to want us to sketch out what have been sort of the major responses to this question of violence and Christianity. I mean we mentioned the just war theory and that's been sort of a a big part of the tradition in the you know intellectual tradition of the church and ethical tradition of the church I should mention but there are also I mean um Ben you mentioned names like John Yodar and Stanley Howeras and those names are somewhat familiar to me because a big part of my sort of Christian journey has been with a Menite Brethren denomin mination and so there has been a very kind of strong pacifistic influence.

[00:08:16]>> So I would assume that those are kind of the two major contenders. Is there anything in between or like how where where do you sit along this? Do I want to call it a spectrum because everything seems to be on a spectrum these days?

[00:08:32]But >> well, I mean, first of all, you know, before even getting into those figures and and bringing up what it is, the challenges that they raise, I think it's even worth going back and just framing in general. I mean, the whole reason why we are even asking this question is because we derive our ethic from the teaching of Jesus Christ. And it's very clear when reading the gospels that Jesus appears to be pretty antiviolence.

[00:09:01]The cross itself seems like a laying down of life. Uh not retaliating with with evil, repaying evil with evil. Um loving your enemy. Uh so the idea that we have to wrestle with this we we have to I think first look at Jesus himself and say is there something about that agopic love that he demonstrates that is politically viable for us or is it something are we and this was and here's where I'll bring in somebody like Yodar or Howerwas who were pacifistic and pushing that they were trying to say that what was happening in a lot of dialogue was that Jesus was being bracketed off as a sort of sariological figure, but he doesn't really touch our ethics and our politics. And they were trying to say that's just completely backwards. Um, we need to understand any any of this conversation, any justification we give has to begin with understanding how Jesus wants us to respond. And so uh they you know Yodar and and it's worth mentioning Yodar had a massive uh uh moral failing in his life that has really tarnished his reputation but his work the politics of Jesus still really stands as as a very influential work in terms of pacifistic dialogue um and then taken up by people like Stanley Howerwas and and here's what I would just say I'll put my kind of cards on the table well where I don't necessarily move As far as somebody like Stanley Hower was, maybe I wouldn't be a pacifist in the strict sense that he is.

[00:10:42]I really I really think what he raises is important. And basically, it's this.

[00:10:47]Here's one of his quotes is that he once said, "The reason I say I'm a pacifist is because if I didn't, I'd kill you."

[00:10:55]And he, you know, he he had some of these great little sayings, right? But but the thing is is I think what he's getting us to is saying if if we aren't wrestling with the question of peacemaking and the cost that that will uh be to us >> um we are prone to violence and no one needs to tell us that violence is going to be where we end up very quickly. And so if you start the conversation with well I have this tradition I have just war tradition behind me and therefore I'm allowed to go to war. you better be thinking very carefully about what it is that you're saying because we are prone to violence and that's something embedded into our human nature and so those are a number of questions to bring up but I think I think that's bit of setting the stage there >> that that's very interesting I mean I I love the way you kind of put it >> that in a sense really highlights the evil right I mean the the reason we're having this conversation in the first place is because there is evil in the world and the question is how do we respond to this evil? Do do if there's evil being done to my neighbor like you mentioned earlier Wes is it our responsibility then to intervene >> uh to protect our neighbor who can't protect himself or herself and so on. So there is evil that we need must contend with. But at the same time, what Ben you're drawing out is when we're thinking about just war and whatnot, we're almost always thinking about the evil out there, but what about the evil in here that almost wants to be giddy about the fact that we get to go to war and slay our enemies, right? Uh there is some of that kind of sitting there. Um >> I think there's a complexity with when we look at Jesus. Um because Jesus kind of subverts expectations.

[00:12:50]It's interesting, isn't it, that much of the cultural expectation in Jesus's day was that the Messiah would be a ruler who would come and overthrow Roman occupation. And yet, what do we see happen? He he gets murdered by them. And yet Jesus's ministry talked about being poor in spirit and mourning and says that it's the meek who are blessed and the peacemakers who will be called children of God. And yet simultaneously you go to a place like John chapter 10 where Jesus goes to Jerusalem for the feast of dedication which is what we now call Hanukkah which is the celebration of a military victory of the Mac Makabian revolt over the Seucid emperor Antiochus IVth Epiphanies. So Jesus is routinely doing things like talking to Roman centurions and just like John the Baptist previously didn't even hint that their occupation was problematic. So I think you know we're dealing with these complexities of yes of course Jesus is a peacemaker. I mean he literally comes to be served. The Lord of the universe steps off his throne in eternity and comes to be served. Like there's a there's a profound peacemaking humility to that. But Luke 14 Jesus talks to uh he uses actually war preparation as an analogy for counting the cost of following him. Not to mention that just before his arrest in Luke 22, he tells his disciples to buy a sword. Not not necessarily to defend him, but seemingly to defend themselves. So, this I think fits with, you know, what we see Paul later in Romans 12 and 13 talking about where he talks about the states that Christians cannot and should not further their own cause or cause of kingdom by force. But, you know, I think there's a complexity here. Could you derive a pacifist Jesus?

[00:14:41]I think you could. But then you also have to deal with some of these other things where Jesus he he's not he's not indifferent to these things. And if he wanted to, he could have condemned every Roman centurion, every soldier that came along his way and said, you know, you are an immoral person involved in immoral institution. Stop it.

[00:14:59]>> He doesn't do that.

[00:15:00]>> Yeah. So here's a question for you guys then. war.

[00:15:07]Is it a concession uh on the part of God that he allows these things? Uh and kind of related to that, what do we make of say the conquest of the promised land where Joshua leads the Israelite army to drive out and and slaughter the Canaanites and so on. I I understand that is an act of judgment. Does that sort of thing still carry on to this day? So, what do you guys make of those questions? I I know this might sound almost like a setup for you guys, but I'm genuinely curious what you guys think. I think um I I think when it comes to scripture, that's again where Christians are are forced to say you you have to read all of that in the light of Christ, in the in the light of the revelation of the cross and resurrection of Jesus. And that does change things. Uh, however, um, here's where I, you know, I just paid some, uh, respect, I think, to Stanley Howerwas there a moment ago. Here's where I would go in the direction of the other figure of the 20th century, Reinhold Neber, who was not a pacifist, who who I think was probably right to say, when it comes to the idea of a just war, you're really only ever going to get a nearly just war. um the the sort of idea of this is a completely just thing. I'm not sure that that exists. And and when you ask about concessions, I think you asked if there were concessions on behalf of God.

[00:16:38]Now, that's a that's a bit of a different question in the sense of is it a concession that sin is even exists in the world. Um, but the question of when, you know, when we go to war, if we decide to act on behalf of somebody else for an altruistic end, are we making a concession? And I would have to say yes.

[00:16:56]I think you always always are in that position. Never was kind of looking at it in the sense of it's the lesser of two evils, but to take another life is still uh at the end of the day um not not the ideal. It's not what the kingdom of God will will hold. And what Neber ultimately wanted was, and this is not satisfactory for everybody, but he wanted to make sad soldiers. He wanted to make uh the the soldier not relish in what it was that they were doing. And I do think at at the very least the challenge for Christians is to say we should be taking no pleasure in this.

[00:17:32]And yet >> it might still at some point be called for.

[00:17:36]>> Yeah. Isn't that Isn't that part of sort of the parameters that Augustine set out was that when a soldier goes to war, you almost have to do it in in mourning cuz you are about to take life and and I think even Martin Luther picked up on that later uh in his criticism of different kind of wars that were going on in the area. Is that is that right?

[00:17:59]>> Yeah. I think you know if you look at Augustine, what he says is clear, just wars are never holy wars, right? Right?

[00:18:05]So there's like a division between there and they're certainly not happy even in victory. He says he said he talks about war which should only be done in the defense of innocent people and the idea of trying to wipe a people off the face of the earth for some private interest is evil. uh that the victors celebration should be done and he has this quote if I'm remembering it correctly where he talks about that victory should be done only with tears and remorse and specifically that just war should only be done when it estab establishes mutual peace between both parties so waged only in self-defense or to retain stolen property and you know we look at that it's interesting that later in the middle ages it seems that the only thing that people remember of Augustine's just war theory is that he says war is okay and they kind of run with that. Um but you know talking about soldiers only fight with proportional force that prisoners of war are to be treated with dignity and he even says that the losing party should walk away without a sense of resentment or loss.

[00:19:11]>> I don't know if that's possible but that is what August says. I I I would say that too, just to jump on that and to say if you really look at the just war tradition and sort of the boxes that need to be ticked in order for something to constitute a just war, I don't know that you can say it's ever fully been done. Um, you know, one one of the other one of the other stipulations is you need to viably see an end in sight. Um, you know, you actually have to think that this is going to work in quelling the violence uh from turning into something cyclical. And so I I this is where I go back to I I believe in nearly just wars. I don't know that I could say that there's ever such a thing as a holy just war. And I do and this is also where I want to respect this is part of where I think Romans 13 does apply. It's really important that we read Romans 12 with Romans 13 that says do good to enemies, right? And and to uh and to love one another. And that means Romans 13 isn't just a blank check for us. Uh at the same time, >> we have to recognize how difficult of a job it is to govern nations and the difference between that and maybe you and I as individual Christians on a daily basis and the use of force in a more uh restrictive sense. So I would just say it is that complex. Well, and in talking about Paul and kind of the the justosition between what we see Paul writing in in Romans and maybe someone like Jesus in our geopolitical context, we tend not unrealistically, might I add, to worry about too much oversight or too many mandates, too big a government. But in the ancient world, the real danger was not enough law. It was political stability that was held on to by a thread throughout much of antiquity. And anarchy was far more present in the reality of their daily lives than it was for us who are privileged to have things like constitutions and charters to protect us. But law and order in the ancient world, it was a complicated subject. And so, you know, we see the balancing act played out between Jesus who's largely addressing Judeans and Jews and Gentiles in his immediate context where what we find in the letters of Paul and I think Peter as well are words that are given to dispersed believers involved in the Jesus revolution living outside of the areas where Jesus actually ministered.

[00:21:36]>> Yeah, that that's fascinating. Now, I I know we're talking a lot about, you know, wars like on the governmental scale or nation to nation fighting, that sort of a thing. Let's also boil it down because I think there are certain um principles that carry all the way through this profile, if you will. Let's bring it down to a bit more of a personal level. Now, I myself am a very leaky pacifist, if you will.

[00:22:04]I like Ben, I want to lean towards the more of the pacifistic side of things.

[00:22:09]But at the same time, as a father, I find it very difficult to think, you know, hey, I if there is threat coming to my family, my wife and my children, what is my response going to be? And I I don't know about you guys, I heard that this is more of a guy thing than for girls, but my wife actually uh confirmed this for me that when we go on a walk, I'm constantly on the watch out for some kind of threat that might pop out of the bushes somewhere, right? And if there is a guy walking by, I am thinking of all kinds of million scenarios of how this guy might attack and how I might defend my family almost to an obsessive level.

[00:22:54]And I asked my wife, "Do you do that?"

[00:22:56]She's like, "No, what what are you on?

[00:22:59]Why are you thinking this way?"

[00:23:01]>> But I do that almost instinctively.

[00:23:04]I want to protect my family. And now this has always been the toughest part when I was sort of more in the Menanite brethren kind of tradition where there's very kind of strong current of pacifism in cases where my family's under threat.

[00:23:22]Am I justified in using violence? And that's the kind of the threat that has always kind of put me just on this side of pacifism or nonviolent resistance.

[00:23:35]Um, so any thoughts there, guys?

[00:23:39]>> Yeah, definitely a few. And as somebody who has a has a daughter, um, yeah, I'm going to use force if somebody comes at my daughter. I I think I think you just have to put that flatly on the table whether that's right or wrong. I mean, this this is my this is my instinct.

[00:23:54]However, this is where I think it's important to recognize the fact that peacemaking is a skill that needs to be developed.

[00:24:00]>> Uh, this isn't something that we prepare for this. we actually make a plan.

[00:24:06]That's part of what being a disciple and following Jesus is, is cultivating in ourselves and in our communities um the the act of peacemaking. Uh and that actually requires something of us preemptively and so that we're not just always reacting in a moment. But to your point, Steve, I think that's exactly right. I mean, uh men are are in general, I think it's within our nature to be protectors. Uh, I'm no Jason Bourne, but I'm definitely walking down the street taking note. You know, I'm not like, man, six o'clock with a, you know, I'm aware of those surroundings.

[00:24:40]and you're you're identifying to see if something was threatening, you'd move away from that situation or you'd and and the truth is is I do believe we are justified that if push came to shove and there was some kind of uh legitimate violence being uh ensued against my family that I would reasonably take I would I I would use force to prevent it.

[00:25:04]Um, and this is where, you know, there's that old that old proverb of like better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. I think that's I think that's wise. You know, I don't think that that's um outside of the scope of what it means to be meek as a Christian and to understand that there are things that you can cultivate and do to protect yourself uh that are that are reasonable. But I always go back to this idea of peacemaking is something that comes beforehand. uh it's something that we have to work toward, strive toward.

[00:25:35]It's part of disciplehip. And if we're not doing that, then we're going to end up in situations where our proclivity for violence is is exacerbated and and it takes over very quickly. Um and so we want to make sure we're in situations where we don't just we're not naturally just moving toward that as though of course that's the answer. I want to follow the pacifist almost all the way down. I want to avoid violence at every cost. Uh where I stop short is in saying that in every circumstance I would never use force. I cannot I cannot make that confession.

[00:26:10]>> Yeah. I I think that's reasonable. Like I said, like you have this uh back and forth between Jesus saying those who live by the sword die by the sword. And I think the reason why he tells his disciples to go buy a sword right before the Garden of Gethsemane account is because I think it's for their self-defense. I think Jesus realizes, you know, they need to be able to preserve their life in a context where it might go south. At the exact same time, I'm I'm reminded of American historian Howard Zinn, who says there is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. You know that that that we need to be very very careful when we talk about these things.

[00:26:47]And we see throughout scripture, Ephesians 6, 2 Corinthians 10, the topic of waging war with preaching words and persuasion rather than weapons. And I think we should aim to persuade people if we can. But the reality of broken humanity is that not all people can be persuaded. And so theory and philosophizing about what should happen in an ideal world often get muddy when, you know, the rubber hits the road and someone's jumping out of the bush with us walking down, you know, a path. And so at that point, I think that there's an aspect of self-defense is is perfectly reasonable. Now, how does that interact with turning the other cheek?

[00:27:31]Well, I think it's on it's relatable, but it's kind of a different subject because Jesus is the one who ultimately turned the other cheek to our violence.

[00:27:40]And so, the second person of the Trinity, like I said, entering into humanity, stepping out of eternity and into our depravity, he presents his face and we struck him. But immediately after his resurrection, he appears to his disciples, one of whom has abandoned him days before, right? one who who denied him and Jesus shows up and what's his first word? Peace. And so he effectively turns his face towards in the offer of reconciliation. And and that's how any conflict is truly ended. Personal conflict between friends, spouses, family members, or ones that involve soldiers and armies. But >> on like a case by case basis, I think if someone is threatening my family and and me, there's going to be an aspect of I'm going to do everything I can to not, you know, have that lead to a conclusion that is not good, but I'm also not going to, you know, roll over.

[00:28:41]>> I I I appreciate that. I've always the way I've always put it is I'm going to do everything in my power to not use lethal force, >> but if the situation calls for it and I see no other recourse, then I might have to resort to it. But at the same time, I think from our discussion, especially with just war and our attitude towards um hurting others and killing them, I think it's clear that it's not just the result, but how we obtain said result, I think is really important >> in this discussion. Now, when it comes to the question of peacemaking, I I love the the fact that you use that word peacemaking, Ben, because uh again, when I was sort of more active in the Midnight Brethren circles, there was a great deal that was made of the difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking.

[00:29:37]And I think there's a clear difference in the fact that, you know, peacekeeping is just kind of maintaining the the status quo in some ways, whereas peacemaking is a very active thing. And um in the pacifist circles a lot is said about pacifism is not passivism right being pacifist doesn't mean being passive. You are actually supposed to resist. We just resist in a nonviolent way. Which is why a lot of pacifists favor terms like nonviolent resistance.

[00:30:10]It is still a resistance but it's nonviolent. And what we tend to have is this failure of of imagination in the sense that we somehow uh tend to see some resolution to you know a situation that seems to call for violence.

[00:30:29]We don't know how to get there except in very kind of set >> courses of actions. You know those kinds of things. And I just want to give a nod to my pacifist brothers and sisters that like I see you and I and I am very much kind of on that road where I I the reason I fail to go all the way is there it seems to me that there are going to be situations probably where I have to use force because I don't see any other recourse and that that could be my failure in you know it could be my failure of imagination but at the same time I'm very cognizant of the fact that God has given us this frightening ability >> to willfully do evil and set our mind on it and nothing can persuade us otherwise. And so in those kinds of situations, I see us, you know, I see myself if I have to resort to even lethal force, I might have to do it.

[00:31:25]>> Yeah. I mean, I think I think we need to take radically seriously the very fact that our faith is also predicated on the overcoming of death and that giving your life is is just part of what it means to be a Christian. When we say we believe in Christ, um that actually means we believe we should take up our cross. And not many of us are confronted with that on a regular basis uh in the in the very literal sense of having to give our lives. But I do think that that is what the Christian life is preparing us for.

[00:31:58]And I think that that has to really be taken into account rather than just moving immediately. And I think it's dangerous when we move immediately to more utilitarian frameworks of understanding our ethical well this could help the situation this could right that we are in a sense we're we're more the ethical term deonttological more rulebased in the sense of like well no I'm actually more so trying to follow uh a mandate that is given to me by Jesus regardless of the outcome and and that might cost me my life and that might mean forgiving my enemies and that's just easier said than done. And I would and I would say, you know, this is where it might be conflating a little bit the personal challenge of that with what does it mean then to work that out with governments and political authorities. But I will say that's precisely why I don't love just war theory. Because what ends up happening is I find that because we have this tradition of just war theory, it essentially just becomes a rubber stamp on a decision already made to then justify actions of nations. And this is where as a Christian I think we need to voice and emphasize peacemaking is the goal. Harmony with others is the goal.

[00:33:12]Unity, giving our lives, not taking it.

[00:33:15]And if we don't hold that standard, it goes back to that Howerwis quote. If I don't hold myself to that standard, it's going to be very easy for me to resort to violence very quickly.

[00:33:24]>> You know what? At some point, someone has to renounce payback >> and instead take the blow while offering peace. We we don't like that. It doesn't feel good. But in the one who himself said he came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life to be ransom for many. It's the way of peace in the pattern of the one who made the ultimate peace for us, right? through the cross.

[00:33:48]And alternatively, it it's the alternative rather is just the endless bloody tit for tat. It's empty, vengeful hell. And the only way out of that hell is a cross.

[00:34:00]And as it is an earthly conflict, so it is with God. God made the ultimate sacrifice by turning the other cheek and appearing to those who abandoned and denied and scorned him. And then as I said before, you know, greeting Peter with peace be with you. And I think in an ideal world, there are no swords, no guns, no tanks, no drones, no missiles.

[00:34:24]But sorrowfully, and this might be the push back on on uh where I would be in terms of what you said, Ben, is sorrowfully we don't live in an ideal world. And we live in a world that can be cold and brutal and dark and violent.

[00:34:37]And so I would say in light of a dejected reality without proper just war all we're left with is just war.

[00:34:46]>> Yeah. No, I I agree with you and I would and I would say you know that was that was Neber Rhynold Neber just for those who don't know again a preacher and a theologian of the 20th century had a monumental shift in his own understanding moving from pacifism to Christian realism is what he called it for precisely that reason is look we live in the reality is we live in a fallen world and as a result certain actions uh tragically need to be you know certain certain uh decisions tragically need to be made that that protect the innocent and and that's sometimes what it looks like. Um but this again is is where I just think the emphasis and the importance I mean it's one of the reasons why I'm a theologian and not a politician. One because being a politician is way too hard. Um and I and I respect good politicians and man do we need them. But it's because I believe that the work of the church is ultimately where the work is done to change the hearts and minds of people so that we have to make less of those concessions because war is a reality.

[00:35:54]And that's why and that's why I don't just bracket it off. I don't want to be an idealist and I don't want to sound like if I do believe that the a purely pacifist position can have catastrophic uh consequences for many. Um but but so does war. And so this don't don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to take some like fence sitting position here, but it is a very very complex situation that we need to be guided in the Holy Spirit toward and and so our emphasis needs to be I think toward that that sense of peace and giving our lives.

[00:36:27]>> Yeah. And I want to pick up on that that word right peace shalom. It's not just a the absence of conflict, right? And I remember giving this one illustration when I was doing this sort of children's katakesis at our local church. See where I come from. I come from South Korea.

[00:36:46]And so I grew up always keeping my eyes on, okay, what is North Korea doing? And we have the most heavily fortified border between the two countries, which really is meant to be one people. South Korea and North Korea, we've been technically at war since well, the Korean War started some 76 years ago. Uh we never signed a peace treaty. We just signed a ceasefire. So we've technically been at war the whole time. Now conflict does happen, although it's rare. So it it's not like a there is this sort of daily tension, but it's it's not like we're worried about this outbreak of of war like tomorrow. We don't generally worry about that. But here's the thing, right? There is no active war going on right now. But would you say that there is peace in that peninsula? Probably not. Because you know, it's just there is just war waiting for an opportunity to take place, right? You know, they're talking to each other like if you fire even a single bullet this way, we're going to come charging in and always kind of having that kind of tension. But what would peace in the Korean peninsula? What would that look like?

[00:38:02]Well, to me it would look like reconciliation where the border, the heavily fortified border is removed. I'm not talking about, you know, political absorption ideologically one way or the other. But what I am saying is between these two that a very symbolic and very real kind of act of peacemaking would be to remove that border and and have that reconciliation. Right? It's not just the lack of war but it is that active presence of reconciled right relationship between the people and I think when I think about peace again it it's very that's why we're talking about peace making right rather than peacekeeping because it is something that we need to work towards because it's more than just lack of conflict and violence um it is the picture that be almost this apocalyptic picture that we see of, you know, no more weapons, no more tanks, no more drones and missiles and and so on.

[00:39:05]>> It it makes me think of, you know, Augustine self-described was notoriously bad at the biblical languages, Greek and Hebrew. He didn't really know them and is very candid about that. And what his context for peace would have been like, would he have understood shalom? I don't know. He doesn't talk about it directly.

[00:39:24]He he does talk about the fact that he rejects Roman imperialism and you do have a category within Roman imperialism of the Pax Romana, >> right? The Roman peace and Augustine rejected outright the Roman imperial reasons for war which included things like expansion and protecting honor and even the simple idea that Roman subjugation due to its being bigger and better was a justification was the thrust behind the pax romana the Roman peace. It had to do with Rome thinking of itself as bigger and better and that giving it grounds to kill when they thought necessary. And Augustine rejects that. And I wonder if that's more analogous to what you you see in somewhere like like a a dictatorial state like North Korea, right? Is is there's this kind of it's it's peace, but it's almost like a neutrality. like it's it's it's it's balancing on a razor's edge where a a a wind could blow one way or the other and and there's a a tenuousness of that and that's kind of what Augustine is living in. And so yes, he's giving these parameters that are ideal, but he's also he's not naive about how, you know, everything can go off the rails.

[00:40:38]>> That's very true. And I I love that example, too, of rejecting the pox romana because it's predicated on something violent as well. Christ does the same thing. Jesus says, "I have come not to bring peace, but a sword." Now, some people can use that as justification for that means Christians should be violent. I don't think that's true. I think what I think what Jesus is saying there essentially is because he was unwilling to play into cyclical violence in the way that Rome had established and you know, name who you like there. that because he was unwilling to do that he recognized this is going to bring conflict like conflict will happen as a result of this revelation and bring it on because it's true good and beautiful and this is what needs to stand and sometime I think that's a real challenge for Christians is that you that's part of the non-passivity of being a pacifist so to speak right is that if you are after peace but you realize that also means not compromising with violent systems um then you things are going to get worse before they get better and that you need to be willing to sort of take that on and that means fighting a different fight of you know I think you look at the example of North Korea and you go like you guys might have peace but I think it's you know peace in quotations but I think it's important for Christians to point it out and say it's also despotic and cruel and absolutely against the kingdom of God and if that invites conflict from you well it still needs to be said. Um, so I think there's a challenge Christians, this is where Christians do need to push and use, you know, certainly a rhetorical force there, uh, and and be willing to take some sacrifice for what might come about. I think that's what Jesus was pointing to. And there's no shortage of people who write about sort of the tragic consequences of what happened as a result of the gospel itself spreading.

[00:42:30]I mean, it cost people were being fed to the lions in in uh, gladiator circles, right? But uh, But that was worth it for the truth of Christianity to to spread because ultimately that's what will bring real peace. Um so yeah um I I think this is a good place to to land or do you have something else that you wanted to add on to that Wes before I wrap up? Yeah. I mean, I think of the first 300 years after the inception of Christianity, you had a very strong concept that you could do good without the use of power. And that was a completely novel idea in the ancient world and particularly in Greece and Rome. And the early Christians were very clear that they needed no legislation or military power. They thought they'd already won because Christ had died and been raised and sat at the right hand of God. And so, they didn't need earthly power. Their rallying cry was persuade, pray, serve, and suffer. And that would be enough to change the world. And so I don't think that that, you know, you've heard me say I'm actually an advocate for just worthy. I think that that there's a goodness to that. But you look at the early church and you look at how Jesus is the one who ultimately turned the other cheek to our violence and just the the the profoundness of that and how the Jesus revolution, how Christianity ultimately changed the dynamic of how people understood things like war and peace and um value of human life in a world that you know, you look at or pre and even to some degree post-Christian.

[00:44:08]It's messy. There there were completely different ideals. You know what what hasn't been a tradition is realism in the Arisatilian view like the the just causes for war in pre and non-Christian history have been eye opening. And the reason we find such practices abhorrent has to do a lot with the Jesus revolution. The reason why we can have this conversation and talk about why there are parameters for war is because we are so saturated in the waters that we swim in from the Christian worldview that we view something like how do you treat a prisoner of war as a valid conversation because in a pre-Christian con context in a an ancient neareastern context that is a slave that is someone who has no human value. Now they have been conquered. And so you you treat them how you you ought to treat them as your enemy. And then for Jesus to say, "Love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you." These things are this is why I keep using the term Jesus revolution because it really is a revolution. It uproots these preconceived ideas. And now we just assume them. We just assume that having a conversation about what we should do within the parameters of a war, why why does the United Nations put forth these rules for combat? Well, it's because we're living on third base and uh because we didn't just wake up on third base. You know, the the last 2,000 years have gotten us from hitting the ball and moving from one base to the other. And we can assume these things, but we assume them only because we're standing on the work of generations past that are saturated within the Christian worldview.

[00:46:02]>> All right, let's wrap up there, viewers and listeners. Thank you so much for joining us for this week's edition of the AC podcast. The AC podcast is a ministry of Apologetics Canada. Thank you again for joining us. We'll come back next week with more to think about.

[00:46:18]Until then, you know the drill. Love God, love people. Bye for now.