Christina Lamb's quest for a new body to investigate crimes against journalists • FRANCE 24

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[00:00:00]I mentioned at the top of the program, it is World Press Freedom today. Perhaps not a day to celebrate because hearing from Reporters sans frontières, Reporters Without Borders, that this is the worst year in the 25-year history of World Press Freedom Index uh since the charts began. So, looking at the details, the global average score, which is given for press freedom, is at its lowest ever. For the first time, more than half of the world's countries are now classified as, quote, either difficult or very serious categories. About 1% of the world's population live in countries with uh good press freedom. Just 1%. The worst place to report in terms of trying to to carry out your job as a reporter is Eritrea. There's absolute government control.

[00:00:47]Uh the worst place to go to report, to try and survive, is Gaza. In the last year, 86 journalists were killed.

[00:00:54]Uh what to do about it? Well, let's talk to Christina Lamb, the chief foreign correspondent of The Sunday Times, renowned British war reporter, the best-selling author of 10 books, including Small Wars Permitting, The Sewing Circles of Herat, and Our Bodies, Their Battleground, War Through the Lives of Women. And Christina is calling for an independent body to investigate crimes against journalists, and joins us tonight to explain. Great to have you back with us, Christina. Good to talk to you tonight. Thank you. Let's talk about what you'd like to see in place, and why.

[00:01:24]Well, first of all, I mean, as as you mentioned, today is World Press Freedom Day, and it's a very bleak picture. Last year was the deadliest year for killings of journalists. And I think 129 journalists were killed, two-thirds in Gaza. Now, when I started out as a foreign correspondent almost 40 years ago, if anything happened to us covering conflict, it was really because of collateral damage, that we'd gone somewhere we shouldn't, that we'd done something foolish, or or bad luck.

[00:01:59]Nobody was actually targeting us. And this seems to have totally changed, that journalists are being killed when they're clearly wearing these blue jackets we wear with press in big white letters on the front to identify us.

[00:02:14]Um and far from protecting us in a number of cases, these seem to be acting almost like bull's-eyes, targets.

[00:02:23]So, while I have never thought that journalists ourselves should really be the story, I think that we're now in a situation that if we don't start calling this out and doing something, that this is just going to be the norm, and it will be seen as a way for people to operate in war, to kill those who are saying things they don't like being reported.

[00:02:47]It is It used to be a a kind of a badge of pride, didn't it? You've made clear, as you see it now, that the blue flag jacket uh isn't that we're putting on our backs covering conflicts, it's now a a target on our backs.

[00:02:59]Yeah, I don't think we should wear them anymore. I think we should probably wear camouflage because it is not an advantage to to show identify yourself as press. We can see that quite clearly in a a number of cases. So, um the other thing is, I think we need to start really seriously investigating these killings. At the moment, only, I think, two in 10 actually are investigated.

[00:03:29]Um that needs to change. It's a war crime to kill a journalist, and uh people need to start actually investigating properly and prosecuting.

[00:03:40]Interestingly, France does have the I recently met the war crimes prosecutors, and they have started I think they have eight investigations into killings of French journalists from Syria to Central African Republic. But that's very unusual. Other countries are not investigating.

[00:04:00]Tell us I mean, you must have scratched your head for a while about this, Christina. Tell us about how you how you would ideally like it to work, and what would have to basically spring into place to make that some kind of body, or some kind of way of actually investigating more specifically. Just give give us an idea of of how you envisage it.

[00:04:19]Yeah, I mean, you could either have national investigations as France are doing, but I don't see I think that's quite difficult for uh to get countries to do. And lots of political leaders have come out and spoken about their concerns over the killings of journalists. And also, you know, this is happening not in a vacuum.

[00:04:38]It's a general backdrop that you mentioned from Reporters Without Borders of declining media freedom everywhere, people shutting off internet, [laughter] uh people imprisoning journalists.

[00:04:51]There's more than 500 journalists imprisoned around the world at the moment. So, there's a lot of things underway to try and and curb people who would speak out. And so, all of these things need to be looked at. But the killings of journalists can be investigated. There could be the UN has bodies that look at the killings of children, that look at crimes against women. There could be something looking at crimes against journalists, because I do think that we have reached a point where if we do not start standing up and doing something about it, that this is going to be regarded as just a weapon that can be used in in war, and that that's not okay. It's okay to criticize journalists for doing their job. It's not okay to physically attack them, or or to kill them. And some of those people you you mentioned Gaza as being the most dangerous place to report. Um we as foreign reporters are not allowed into Gaza by Israel, so the Palestinian journalists have been having to um doing a very brave and and commendable job to report what's happening. But it's all been put on them, and they've paid very high price for it, and we should be coming out and defending them.

[00:06:12]I remember more more than a decade ago, Christina, in Afghanistan, in one of the forward operating bases near Lashkar Gah, and Caroline Wyatt, who you will know as well, and the war correspondent, having a conversation, saying, "Should we just take the press, cuz it's a little badge that sticks on front of the flag jackets? Should we just take it off?"

[00:06:26]And the conversation, Caroline said, "Well, actually, ultimately, because of that risk." And that was back then. If we are marked out and come under attack, perhaps it's just as much chance cuz we're on deployment, we're attached to British and and ISAF forces then. But that was back then. Those conversations were being had, and I'm I'm you know, this is slowly the pressure's got worse and worse. You reported from Sudan recently. I know you I noted your report there, you talked about it that it felt like humanity had died. I mean, did you have Were you thinking then, "Do I wear this?"

[00:06:56]Was that going through your head all the time?

[00:06:59]I did start to think. I mean, I report a lot from Ukraine. We've seen journalists being targeted there by drones. Um and another thing that's changed is, you know, when I started out, and famously when you sort of read books about wars in the past, there was always a sort of famous hotel in major wars, you know, whether it was um the Europa in Belfast, the Commodore in Beirut, or the Hotel Florida in Madrid during the the Spanish Civil War, where journalists um got together and stayed in the same place, and sort of watched I mean, there was always competition, but but kind of had each other's backs, too. Um um and that camaraderie was very important. That's all gone really now, because um hotels are being targeted, as well. We've seen several in Ukraine, journalists' hotels being bombed. So, now, on my most recent trip, I was in Kharkiv, we deliberately stayed somewhere where we knew journalists didn't stay. And that's very sad that we're now in that situation.

[00:08:06]And I guess what you also, given your your um experience, and the respect people have for you, when you travel to places, it comes with a kudos, as well, of what you carry you know, carry with you. I remember a trip to Guantanamo Bay with you many years ago. And you know, it people gave you access and give us access because of the work you've done previously. And there must be young aspiring Christina Lambs nowadays, that when you give talks in festivals that see you and say, "How do we go through that?" And given what you've just told me about wanting to become a war reporter and do these things, what do you say?

[00:08:43]I mean, it's a very different world, and some things are much better than when I started. So, when I started, there was no internet or mobile phones, and so communications were very different [clears throat] difficult. Um but I didn't feel that anybody was specifically trying to kill me. I was covering conflict, so of course the nature of it, you're going into places where people are shooting at each other.

[00:09:05]You you you know, something might happen to you. You take that risk. But that's quite different to somebody specifically targeting you because of um uh what you know, the fact that you're a journalist. And I think that's very difficult now to know what to do. I was talking to a Ukrainian editor a few days ago who had two young female journalists going into Kherson. And he said he didn't know really what to advise them, whether they should wear the the press jacket or not.

[00:09:36]Um >> [laughter] >> and that's a horrible situation to be in.

[00:09:42]Are there any areas right now, Christina, that you would think twice more than you ever had before, in terms of that thought process of of where you would go, and where you would not contemplate?

[00:09:54]Well, I mean, apart from the fact that things have changed in terms of the targeting of journalists and the personal nature of war has changed a lot. So, the use of drones and FPV drones and um in the war in Ukraine has made things very difficult. You'll see almost no frontline reporting now from Ukraine because it is too dangerous to to go anywhere near the frontline. It's all being done from, you know, quite a way back. And I have to say uh when you are anywhere near the frontline, you drive under these nets, which is to stop the drones coming through. And it's very disconcerting driving along and having all this sort of like fishing net over the top in case of of drones. Um in some places, those have got holes in where drones have come. But that doesn't make you feel very very safe. So, um this is a lot of, you know, things are changing a lot. There There's a new kind of danger that I think we don't any of us, not just journalists, but the soldiers fighting the war. I was talking to people about how difficult it is to collect the the bodies of people injured on the battlefield or killed because it is so risky to go into those areas and people getting stuck for for a long time um in frontline positions because it's too dangerous to to move out. So, there are a lot of challenges that that we didn't have before, but some things we did have have gone. So, And I should say a final thought, Christina, because it's always good to get your thoughts on a place we rarely hear from. It's right at the bottom of the index, as you saw, um Eritrea. One of the few reporters you have reported from Eritrea. Just give us an idea of the repression, the difficulty of of reporting there.

[00:11:47]Yeah, I mean, I I have to say I haven't been there for a very long time because I think it's extremely difficult to get in there now. Um but yes, it's interesting to see it cuz it it we don't see it in the news and it um interesting to see it right at the bottom like that. And you know, it obviously is an extremely difficult place for people to operate in. And another place I would just like to mention because it's very much a place that I've reported on a lot and care a lot about and I feel has dropped right out of the news is Afghanistan, which um as you know, uh girls can't go to school, women can't work, and it's extremely difficult for journalists to operate. And there are some brave women journalists who are still trying to report from that extremely difficult conditions.

[00:12:40]No, it is. And it is a fantastic book.

[00:12:43]You Many of your books are, particularly the Sewing Circles of Herat, I recommend it. Christina, always a pleasure to talk to you. Really good to hear your thoughts and analysis. Uh Christina Lamb, thank you.

[00:12:53]Chief Foreign Correspondent for the Sunday Times. Thank you. Speak to you soon. The renowned British war reporter and best-selling author as well.