re: Amanda Sukenick ... The End of Sentience

本站添加: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]All right, time for another do notguard.com video presentation. So, ephilis.com and ephilism.com also uh video presentation. So, let's let's not forget uh what do I hit now? That probably.

[00:00:19]Okay, so it's me. Yes, back again. And uh holiday edition probably. Maybe that's at least that's when I'm starting to make this. um and nice crappy weather and blah blah blah. So yeah, uh it is petty of me. Um just I hate parades. I hate nonsense. So all that waste of time stuff people invest in. I just can't stand it. Anyway, um so it's another one of these um McCainbridge quarterly uh people writing papers on the subject of what to do about um torment and suffering in the world. What's the um you know cure, the better solution? What should we invest in? Cures or band-aids, all that kind of kind of kind of conversation. Um, and it really revolves around, frankly, uh, most of the conversation uh, around some sort of idiotic notion that I should make a distinction between the welfare of human beings and the welfare of dogs and cats and all the rest of the animals on earth that somehow they're suffering the dumb things, the things they can't add and subtract and all that kind of crap. Can't know the capital of Bangladesh, if there is a capital. um uh somehow uh you know like me you know I I don't know the capital uh they should be treated you know and ignored uh just left to whatever natural devices uh be you know not be not not gain any of the benefits of civilization uh that is morphine all of that kind of crap uh technology to help uh navigate their existence and make it more safe and all of that kind of crap and we should just ignore them and let them go to hell, so to speak.

[00:02:10]Too stupid. So, I don't even want to, you know, who wants to even discuss with religious cooks, right? Religious cooks who want to exterminate human beings.

[00:02:18]Gee, that sounds really stupid. So, yeah, why would I be on their side? Um, so yeah, if you're an anti-natalist and you don't care about animals, then [ __ ] you. Godamn, you're a ludoy tune. Uh, you might as well be, okay, one of those people that acts up in the world and does silly things because yes, you're too stupid. All right, for this conversation, frankly, for a conversation, frankly, um, is it's just about brains. That's all we have. They're silly little brains made by evolution. They all pop out of some sort of vagina thing. Sometimes wrapped in a shell, sometimes not. Uh, it's all gooey and mucky. Um, and um, you know, it's just designed to fall into the earth, chew stuff up, uh, you know, and it has its own egg making mechanism and so it remakes eggs again and just redo the process over and over again. It's just really stupid. Uh, yes, and it's happening to us and it's happening to the poor little critters.

[00:03:23]And so obviously I think anybody who can't figure out the poor leader little critters need to be rescued also is just too stupid for even conversation. I mean just too stupid.

[00:03:35]Uh frankly they're worse than the enemy.

[00:03:38]Okay. Yeah. Um because I think the enemy could even figure out uh what there's no God and he doesn't care about me and he also doesn't care about my dog.

[00:03:49]you know, they would find that uh really irritating, you know, to find out that the uh you know, that everything's just left in harm's way to be brutalized by some parasite, some silly disease, some silly thing. Uh yeah.

[00:04:08]So anyway, um so this is the Amanda. Um I'm not going to read the whole thing.

[00:04:13]I'm not going to read I'm just going to read the intro and the outro pretty much because we sort of heard these arguments. So this is you know big tenting antiatalism talk about what everybody all the cults think. So it's like the Christian religion you know there's 74,000 varieties. Um you know you can be uh you know it's okay to get priests to be married. It's okay for priests to be gay. It's okay. So you can just choose one. you find Protestant or Methodist or this or that and they all have different standards of what's okay to do. Um what's a real sin, you know, whether you can get divorced or whether you can't get divorced or whether you have to do this or whether you have to sit on a smoking urn and spin around three times and say, "I'm sorry, whatever your your penance is for your crimes." And so, yeah, they all have a different variety of the story of Jesus, which doesn't make any sense because the story seems pretty simple and the rules seem pretty simple and blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, um I mean, if you're a Jesus believer, you know, obviously if you try to mix the Old Testament, the Old New Testament, you're not going to go anywhere because they don't mix at all.

[00:05:24]Uh but anyway, yeah, it's just too silly talking about any of this [ __ ] because people are just nuts. Okay. Um but anyway, so anti-nealism has this kind of problem, you know, where it has all these people playing variety game uh like somehow reality is uh more than one thing. And part of this I dislike because it's almost like this physics argument of duality that somehow it's wave particle. you know, on on Tuesdays things are waving and then Thursdays everything's particling and yeah, you know, it's just, oh, [ __ ] you. Too stupid. That's the best you can do. Um, no, not good enough. Uh, like all this stuff is compatible theories or something and they're directly opposing each other. Frankly, from my perspective, you couldn't find a worse enemy, okay, than these um it's it's like the the doctors who, you know, keep try to keep people alive no matter how horribly awful dead they are or how horribly awful broken they are. You know, it's just to me that's mangula.

[00:06:26]That's not that guy's not doing you any favors. Um so, uh it's the Frankenstein story. You know, this isn't a great ambition. um uh you know just you know to to wake people up uh just to to play the addiction game over and over and over and over and over and over and over and [ __ ] that. So anyway, uh it's all here. I'll read the abstract and then I'll read the conclusion. Uh while David Bentar's uh see how many words I can trip over.

[00:06:59]There are some big ones in there some now and then. Uh while David Bentar's 2006 book better never to have been the harm of coming into existence remains the most influ info influential formulation of contemporary academic anti-natalism. The interesting part is is that obviously you know I came up with the um I I started talking about ephilism and you know essentially without calling it that um on YouTube without even anybody having any awareness of this book. Okay.

[00:07:33]And so the only way the book came up was derived energy um who was a nihilist which was very strange. Um, so he was one of these people that didn't care at all about animals. And so in some sense, I suppose that makes sense that they would he would have found more comfort in uh, Benitar's book. Now, from my perspective, that was the first thing I noticed like on page three or whatever it was. It was really early in the book.

[00:07:58]It was rescued the book from my perspective is that he stated um, everything I'm going to talk about, I'm just going to talk about human conditions, but everything I'm saying applies to uh, to the animal kingdom.

[00:08:09]And so I thought he really got it, you know, that animals are just [ __ ] humans. You don't leave them behind. You don't leave them in, you know, in in [ __ ] You don't leave them to keep falling into quicksand. That would be ridiculous. You don't leave the retards behind. Uh, you know, disgusting.

[00:08:28]Anyway, uh, you know, whatever's good for us is good for them. Come on. You know, it really is that complic that simple. I mean later in this. Okay. So, so she does bring up the um Marihari example of the guinea pig Mazipan or whatever the [ __ ] he was. And you know the guinea pig should have been a [ __ ] son. Okay? So if I had a [ __ ] son, I was the last man on earth. I got cancer. I'm going to die.

[00:08:56]I'm not going to sit there and do the, you know, the silly movie thing and make a robot to take care of my son. That's just too silly. We're both going to gracefully exit. I'm not going to I'm not going to die, you know, without morphine or without some kind of help.

[00:09:11]And I'm not going to let my kid do it either. You know, my [ __ ] kid, I'm not going to leave him to the his own devices. Yeah, he'll find some food, you know, in the refrigerator, but when it runs out, it runs out. You there's no way to to make it okay. So, yeah, we go out together. How could somebody come up with some r some other solution than that as the rational solution to that one particular problem? You're the last person. There is no hope for anything else. You just you don't have a there's no more rational solution. So again, Benitar loses an argument um you know and sort of disgraces his commitment uh to this subject and any you know playing it playing the game of logic here uh fairly because he's cheating. But there is no logic saying that there's something sacred in the judgment of the [ __ ] that somehow the the [ __ ] has autonomy and some right to step into quicksand. No, he doesn't.

[00:10:11]You know, animals are dumb. They do not have any um right to make decisions, okay? They fail the you have a right to make decision test. They fail a driver's test. They fail these things. They're not allowed to do it. We have to do it for them. Period. And take it [ __ ] seriously. We have to do it right for them. Oh, it's just so stupid. Well, anyway. All right. Back to this story.

[00:10:40]uh remains the most invol involutional infolutional formulation of contemporary academic anti-natalism. So again, his anti-natalism is trash because frankly he didn't he didn't he didn't um uh wasn't sincere to his commitment to treat animals just like humans to make the arguments and have them apply to animals just as they apply to human beings. and he just cheated in the sense that he said well because human beings have the right to say no uh you know or something like that uh that um animals have a right to veto um and you know it's just silly and you know again it's in the context of they have no technology, they have no civilization, they have no nothing. Um, it's just, you know, it's just idiotic, frankly, uh, to play a game, okay? That they're on their own mission. They're they're not on some mission. All right?

[00:11:39]Anyway, they're not they're not doing something smart. Well, human beings are trying to do something smart, and that's why they have authority is because they're trying to do something smart.

[00:11:52]Okay. Contemporary academic anti-natalism numerous is other um iterations both academic and non-academic. So I don't like this much but I guess that's what the academics play. So as soon as somebody has a degree like if they give me an honor honorary degree somewhere then I guess I'll go around walking around saying well uh you know you're all nonacademics you know which was sorry I'm going to just call [ __ ] Who cares? Uh, academic, not academic. Who freaking cares? Okay. I mean, uh, Michael Faraday never went to college, you know. Uh, this is sort of [ __ ] I've emerged since its, uh, publication.

[00:12:39]Uh, right. Okay. But they didn't do it um on the same path. Okay. So, it wasn't like his book drove that. I would almost argue that certain other people drove all these numerous reiterations of the subject, but whatever. Yeah, it doesn't matter. All right. These newer forms reflect differing styles, uh, motivations, and normative commitments across a range of issues. So, I'd say there's really only one big issue that's under contention. Um, you know, one big wave particle stupid fact is this stupid idea that animals are something fundamentally different from humans in terms of what consciousness does to them. Um, the feeling problem. So, I would argue that animals have exactly the same feeling problem. Um, the capacity to be uh tortured as we do.

[00:13:37]Okay. uh you know, you can put a chimpanzee on the gurnie, okay? You know, and it's just as capable of being put in mental states um that are uh torment and torturous. Undeniable fact.

[00:13:58]none more contentious than the question of the duties human anti-natalists may hold towards non-human animals uh or life more broadly. So this life more broadly I'd get rid of that question that statement alto together. We know that life more broadly is nothing. We know we call a bunch of little tiny parramiumy things, you know, single cell crap. And we call a bunch of um, you know, just plain cells, uh, living things. And they're not doing anything like what we're doing as a living thing.

[00:14:31]We're made out of those bricks. Those bricks aren't conscious. Those bricks aren't, you know, the real deal. life.

[00:14:39]If you're going to use this word, it should be reserved to the city thing, the thing made out of bricks, not the thing, you know, the thing made. And we know that the only brick that matters is the neuron. That's the brick that makes brains. Okay? There's no other brick that makes a brain. So, you know, this is all about neurocapable life. Um, neuron capable or however we'll put that uh neuronal life. Yeah, neuronal life.

[00:15:07]Um, and it doesn't have anything to do with some notion of um, you know, the fact that chemistry can get funky. Uh, yeah, chemicals can get funky. They can look like they're fuzzy or they're happy or they're something, but they're not.

[00:15:27]Okay? So, it's just that yes, they can arrange in complexity, but it isn't this complexity. It isn't what we're doing which is having this conscious problem.

[00:15:40]All right. This debate has produced a significant uh diver division within anti-natalism.

[00:15:48]Uh all right. I I I guess the argument is is what how did this division get revealed like this you know this principle? But clearly it got revealed because there's people who just hate humans. You know, they think humans ruined Earth, you know, like somehow Earth was this great place to go until the humans showed up and ruined everything. So, you have a planet of, you know, just absolute horror. I mean, things eating each other every [ __ ] day, you know, in horrible ways. Uh, and diseases and all kinds of [ __ ] still going on.

[00:16:21]Volcanoes blowing up, all kinds of [ __ ] happening, things being burned up by lava, whatever. suffocated, you know, all kinds of horrible things happening every [ __ ] day. Okay. And they think humans showed up and ruined it. You know, you're like, "Fuck you."

[00:16:41]What the hell? And you know that if any other animal had gotten intelligence first, let's just say Trannosauruses even, you know, they would have so much better. They would have so much more of an excuse to go, "Oh, well, I can't help being a malicious, horrible animal because I have these big giant teeth and have little tiny arms and so I have to be a [ __ ] menace." No, they would be just like us, trapped in this circumstance where they have to say, "All right, we have to be ethical."

[00:17:07]Okay? Even though I am built to be a carnivore, I'm going to have to do this more gracefully and nicely because it's disgusting to cause pain and suffering to other things for your own benefit.

[00:17:18]So, yes, we can't do that. I mean, they'd have to do the same [ __ ] and they'd just be as selfish and just be as, you know, conniving and scheming.

[00:17:27]They wouldn't do it any better than we did it. Okay, so the little bit of crap human beings indulged in. Look, the fact that it's taken them this long, okay, they still and they still haven't gotten out of it, right? I mean, God was supposed to be killed 200 years ago and he still isn't dead. All right. So, they haven't still killed little talking fish stories, okay, that they have to live by. So, we know that humans have dismally failed. Um, you know, but we know why they fail. They fail because they are individual selfish little [ __ ] Um, and they end up saying, "What's in it for me?" way too often.

[00:18:08]And it's never in it for them um to account for the fact that they have a terrible blood footprint. You know, there's no point looking back and say, "Oh, yeah, gee, I'm really expensive."

[00:18:20]No, they don't want to hear that. Yeah, that truth. All right. Well, anyway, but yes, it's just silly to say, "Okay, human beings ruined it and now let's put the planet back to the fun way it used to be, you know, where, you know, lifespans for what anything that's even semihuman would have a much lower lifespan and a much lower quality of life.

[00:18:44]All right. Anthromorphic, I hate this jargon, but anyway, forums endorse the voluntary extinction. So, what the [ __ ] This whole idea you're going to convince everybody um you know, it's just pretty stupid. I mean, obviously, it's happening now. So the fact is if um current intelligence trends continue that is people maintain some capacity to resist religion and nonsense in civilized countries anyway.

[00:19:15]Um, yeah, they are voluntarily choosing extinction because they really don't find it all that appealing to be subjecting some child to a whole bunch of trauma uh just to figure out how to be a dysfunctional video game player in the end. um you know and that it's you know there's just way too many you know the game of life uh you know especially as the game of culture even it provides about three seats in the winner circle and about three billion seats in the loser circle and so why would you be throwing that dart right if if the if the bullseye is that tiny you know and the oh mediocrity thing is gigantic why would you throw the dart you know oh I'm going to give this dart something and you know what you're going to give it.

[00:20:03]You're no you're you're not going to be able to throw it precisely enough to create the perfect life. I mean even people who are created to have this perfect life like a Tiger Woods [ __ ] it up. You know, he had every reason, okay, in the sense that they physically made him, okay, they performanced him into somebody who could be exceptional. And they even gave him all that psychological crap is don't [ __ ] it up.

[00:20:34]Don't [ __ ] it up. Here's all the things.

[00:20:35]These are all the traps. So, all the traps were spelled out for him and he still [ __ ] it up.

[00:20:42]I mean, amazing, stupid. But that's humans. So, why would anybody throw the dart? Why would you bother throwing the goddamn dart? All right. Anyway, anthroomorphic farms endorse the voluntary extinction of humanity while allowing other life to continue. Uh, well, we know that it's allowing all other shitty, horrible. Yeah, just terrible. leave all the living things to be in exactly the same horrific primitive circumstance of dying of plagues and all kinds of, you know, chimpanzees get polio. You know, they fall out of the tree and die. You know, terrible stuff happens to these animals.

[00:21:22]All of these animals do a lot of dying.

[00:21:24]And yes, we don't see it because they eat each other's dead bodies, but it happens.

[00:21:30]I mean, the birds in this tree in the front yard, I mean, they've already had two nest versions of kids. It only takes two weeks for these little birds. It's amazing how fast it happens. And they're all dying somewhere obviously, but they aren't taking over the, you know, they're not covering the planet. So, obviously, this huge amount of reproduction isn't working. But I don't see the little dead birds all over the road. So, where are they all?

[00:21:57]They're in something's stomach apparently. Anyway, Senioentric forms recommend that eventual extinction of all h sentient life, right? So, you know, and you know, extinction, you know, whatever whatever the word is, they just saying the the project should be discontinued. Okay, the this this uh um this didn't work. Okay, this wasn't a great plan of nature's um you know this carnage war. Um you know, it just doesn't go anywhere. You know, it doesn't really build anything. It just keeps rechanging the definition of success. Uh you know, uh each year it'll be a different um spear that wins. You know, you're just changing one little factor and uh then wiping everything out to start over essentially. And oh, here's the new thing that's going to be the new the new it, you know, the new Vogue. Anyway, just terrible. Anyway, well, humans could voluntarily choose to cease reproduction. So, so we know that they are. So that's the interesting part is we know that if this was left to its own devices, human beings, you know, who are educated find their their phone more interesting, okay, than the idea of having kids, okay, or their entertainment devices more interesting or their, you know, drugs even or something else. They're finding something in the silly world more interesting than any compulsion to be a nurse to a child.

[00:23:37]uh you know to um be a servant to raising something um and being responsible and making sure you don't do anything perverted and weird and all that kind of crap. Don't say fart and don't say [ __ ] or don't say any bad words in front of the little poor kid and do do the you know they don't want to play all that. They don't want to play mommy and daddy. Okay, it's a shitty game. Okay. Um duh. All right. Uh, so yeah, brains really aren't going to find it fascinating. Okay, it takes a pretty dim person to say, "Yes, I I want to knit all day or, you know, do some kind of boring silly [ __ ] you know, like talk baby talk to a baby." Ew. I mean, who could do that for 10 minutes, you know, without getting nauseous?

[00:24:28]So, uh, yeah, it's it's people aren't voluntarily signing up. Let's just say that. And the only ones still doing it are the accident makers and the religious cooks. And that's it. You know, the people trying to take over the world racially or something. You know, the the ethnics, the people who live for their ethnicity.

[00:24:48]You know, their ethnicity is everything.

[00:24:51]And uh you know, they're they have to increase the number of their tribes across the world. Uh puke on them.

[00:25:01]Anyway, while humans could voluntarily choose to cease reproducing, yes, so they are doing that. That's a good sign.

[00:25:07]Very good sign. Sentiocentric anti-natalist implies sometimes explicitly requires active human intervention to end the reproduction of other sentient beings potentially involved in coercion or violence. Yes.

[00:25:20]So the idea is is we call animals right now because they get out of hand population. So, we we attempt to gracefully exit uh animals when uh they're overpop populated or some other problem. Pick the ones that are the least, you know, capable of living well, the limping ones and this and that and do reasonable calls, blah blah blah. It has to be done ugly as [ __ ] I would vote against it when I was a kid because it was just too ugly. Um but yeah, you know, you grow up and you find out, [ __ ] you. It's got to be done. Uh so it's just like recognizing uh you know there's all kinds of populations that you got to find a method but you can't spend a billion dollars on it. You can't spend a trillion dollars on it. You know you can't have some solution that's just impractical and impossible to implement.

[00:26:12]You have to have something that will actually work. So I've talked about all kinds of devices. You know I was talking about deers because deer population was out of control. And the fact is guillotines are, you know, you can't they're ugly, but you can't rationally argue that it isn't a really good way to die because as soon as your blood pressure stops, which it will immediately do, your brain don't work anymore. It will not be conscious, okay?

[00:26:39]It it turns off. Blood pressure is essential. So without it, you're done.

[00:26:46]Um and um just a fact. uh you're done feeling anything, you're done being you.

[00:26:52]Uh so yeah, you could just make devices that, you know, get it done quickly. You know, deer eat corn, put the head in box, box cuts head off the end of the deer. Okay. Um no, but I'm just saying there's all kinds, you know, but it's all ugly. There's no way to make it lovely and pretty and oh, isn't it, you know, uh but this is the same thing. You can't make chemotherapy pretty easier, right? I mean, you're going to save some kid and inject it through a bunch of chemicals. Kid's going to vomit all over the place. All kinds of, you know, crying and whining. Going to be terribly ugly. So, can can I outlaw that because it's too ugly? I frankly would, but you know, I don't get to make those decisions, right? I think it's preposterous to, you know, impose that kid crap on a kid. So, you should at least give the kid the vote ultimately.

[00:27:44]I mean, even though, you know, we don't like children having to make um critical decisions, this is one where you got to let the kids say, "Yeah, okay, I want to drag this out." Or, "Okay, let's just concede. I'm busted and it's fucked."

[00:27:59]Uh, but anyway, but it's just ugly. I'm just saying you can't deny it's ugly, okay? And it's supposed to be for some good. And it's ugly.

[00:28:13]All right. This paper builds upon Patricia McCormick. So I never I don't think I've ever found anything she wrote interesting or I don't think I you know anyway the title of her book is [ __ ] So we'll even get to that. I think that's in here. Um Patricia McCormack's critique of Benitarian anti-natalism. So as written there's nothing wrong with Benitar's book, right? Okay. The asymmetry is a is is a a kind of an intelligently, you know, complicated argument in a way.

[00:28:44]I mean, it's not as simple as saying, well, most goods are the removal of bads. So, I could just make that argument that most goods are the removal of bad. So, you can understand there's an asymmetry because there's a bunch of goods that aren't really good. Okay?

[00:28:59]They're fake goods because they're just removals of bad. And there aren't any bads that are just the absence of a good. No, they're real bads. Okay. All right. So, anyway, McCormack critique of Benurian antiatalism and ephilism in her two 2020 book, the So, this is just such a weird title, the ahuman manifesto, activism for the end of the aisine.

[00:29:27]So, that's I don't even know what that is actually. So, um I mean I don't know what decade of [ __ ] you know you know dinosaurs is that the I don't know what that is.

[00:29:39]Anyway, so um is that what we're in now with the anthroposine?

[00:29:47]I don't give a damn. Right. It's like what? Jurassic Park. Like go ahead make that movie. Aroposine Park. Yeah. No. Not interesting. H well anyway just a horrible title right okay by widening the scope of inquiry to include multiple anti-natalist traditions so I don't know with all that those traditions obviously we know the traditions died out the cults died then they had to rebuild them and blah blah blah blah blah so we know the the intellectual territory has always been ruined because a lot of it has been just superstition right people did things because they were superstitious so there's lots of dopey reasons they were part of a club. Um, so you could argue that these these people who want to just wipe out humans because they hate humans. Um, yeah. Yeah, that's just some primitive [ __ ] kind of voodoo. All right. The analysis maps how and why some formulations of anti-natalism come to endorse forceful and promotalist positions aimed at achieving the extinction of certain even all species.

[00:30:55]So all of this is not really academically relevant at this point. So this is the part that's just so bizarre is that none of this is something that is being suggested tomorrow. Okay? And so none of it has any you know urgency. So it doesn't need to pollute the conversation very much but just to be as a statement. Okay. So I'm just saying that people who are agreeable that okay whether we sterilize all the animals I mean that's just such a you know it seems kind of like oh we're never going to be able to figure out how to do that but who knows maybe we are you know there's nothing there's nothing preventing it just because all cells do have a common ancestor and so they technically could be there could be a virus that you know affects all cells so maybe there's a way to affect all sperm in the universe or something you know um you know so that might be a workable solution because you could argue that all sperm cells are um you know on multi-ellular organisms in the first place and second are produced by and um they're usually brain enabled so that would work out well anyway who knows but I'm just saying it really the only reason I ever brought up the red button was to just point out how commitment there you just don't have a choice. I mean, just think how horrible it would be for it to be your fault. You had the chance to save trillions of victims from being tortured and you didn't do it.

[00:32:35]You failed. You had the chance and you failed and they all got tortured horribly.

[00:32:42]Oh god. Um, I'm just saying that is something you really can't allow yourself to be the [ __ ] who gets that award. You know, the [ __ ] it up so royally award, you know, trillions of tortured or wasted torture. Trillions of wasted or torture organisms tortured. I mean, that's just way too much, right? All right. Anyway, so we'll get to the conclusion now. Well, let's see how we're doing on time. Maybe it's time for Oh, yeah. It is a half hour already. All right. So, I'll take a break and uh be back to complete this video.

[00:33:33]All right. Back um and such. So conclusion the convergence of these divergent anti-natalist positions um all right so they're all all the positions want to mitigate against unnecessarily unnecessary torture except I guess the vehement loonies who who just want to kill humans I guess I don't know too stupid underscores the profound complexity of the moral dilemmas so there's really I don't think it's all that complex, right? To just argue that, oh, well, somehow we can't know that, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:34:11]And we can't know and now we can know a lot about how the universe is functioning, how ev how humans evolved on Earth, and you know, what the real game is. It's just, you know, little fish getting eaten by big fish and bigger fish eating the bigger fish and and it's just crap all the way down. All right. Dilemas confronting the future of anti-natalism. So, who cares? The future of anti-natalism isn't the issue. The future of sentient organisms on planet Earth is what's at stake. And they either will be rescued, okay, by humanity or humanity will [ __ ] it up.

[00:34:54]Uh whether the most vulnerable among us should be left to exist or prevent or prevented. Let's see. whether the most vulnerable among us. So again, this is kind of weird. I don't know what that is is. Okay, so we know the most vulnerable around, you know, among us are these poor animals trapped in systems they can't get out of. Um, you know, the the the the mole rat, you know, has 25 children, you know, and they're all living underground eating grl and, you know, it's just they're the in the best of times, their life is the worst of times.

[00:35:32]uh just horrible existence. Anyway, vulnerable among us should be left to exist or prevented from coming into existence at all is not merely a question of moral preference.

[00:35:44]So again moral preference this isn't you know this acknowledgement you either acknowledge the problem or you ignore the problem. So that's all there is here. So the problem is that the nature of sentience is that it creates a an inevitability that you will too easily squander torture and you won't be able to maximize its utility or um its capacity to create whatever we think uh fun and pleasure is and whether we think fun and pleasure is worth torture in the first place. So that's the only moral preference here is recognizing that pleasures are trivial. Okay. By comparison to tortures. The negative weight of a torture cannot be undone by the frivolous weight of a oh happy pretty pretty, you know. No, no, no, no, no. Not even close.

[00:36:40]Uh, I mean, if you could take every one of some kind of pleasure I could argue I could derive in my life to take away the pain that one cancer victim experiences, I'd have to say do it. Okay? Because yes, it is trivial by comparison.

[00:36:59]Uh, so much as one of the competing ethical imperatives. uh so much as one of the competing ethical imperatives.

[00:37:11]So the only ethical imperative is the fact that torture is an unacceptable price to pay. So that's what I would argue is the real statement to be made.

[00:37:20]Torture is an unacceptable price to pay.

[00:37:23]There's nothing we can do with our sentience that could ever be worth imposing torture. Uh we can't cure any problem in the universe. We're not going to go rescue the woman tied on the train tracks in some other universe. Uh there's nothing for us to cure uh to fix except the problem our own existence creates. Let me say that again. There's no problem for us to fix than the problems our own existence creates.

[00:37:53]Each position from Benitarium Centioentrism.

[00:37:57]Okay. Oh, just so he's he's obviously whatever that means. Centioentrism.

[00:38:03]Why do you have to use a word like that?

[00:38:05]So, Benitar doesn't think animals um can be uh managed by humans that animals have enough intelligence to do it on their own. They have to make their own choices somehow. Somehow they have to build their own civilization and figure out how to do it. They have to make their own morphine. We can't give them any. They have to make it. Oh, too stupid, right? Yes. That's too [ __ ] stupid. All right. To ephilism. Uh, ah humanism. So that I guess is the these are the vixenets vinats visats.

[00:38:44]Uh, you know the silly I hate human culture. Human culture is bigoted and mean. Oh, it's just such, you know. Oh, [ __ ] you. Yes, humans suck. There's no doubt about it. But any animal that ever acquired our position, our power position would have sucked because they all would have been blighted by the same circumstance we're blighted by, which is we're selfish [ __ ] All right. Well, reveals different ways in which ethical reasoning can come into tension with itself.

[00:39:24]So I don't really see any a problem there. I'm sorry. No, particularly when it strikes involve life, uh stakes involve life, procreation, suffering, and extinction. So we know that if you just keep the eye on the ball, the suffering part, it's easy. And if you just don't worry about this extinction word and just say, "Okay, we're going to let this take care of itself in the sense that if we're going to fix the suffering thing, we're going to do the extinction thing by accident.

[00:39:53]So, it's fine. Don't worry about it."

[00:39:56]Um, you know, we know that obviously procreation is a sentence. That's like grabbing somebody out of nowhere and shoving them into somewhere. And so, um, that's an aggression. Okay? That's an imposition. So procreation and imposition are the same kind of word.

[00:40:15]And what we're really saying is we're going to free people from the imposition. We're going to free uh sentient uh beings from this imposition.

[00:40:26]All right. To refrain from acting in the face of foreseeable harm may be to advocate the responsibility that underpins ethical commitment to refrain from acting. Yes. So yes, to to um run away from the weight of the responsibility, huge weight, no doubt about it, but you can't run from it. The decision needs to be made. You don't you don't you don't walk out of the room and say, "I'm not going to pull the plug. I can't pull the plug. Uh I won't even talk about pulling the plug." No, you have to talk about at least pulling the plug. No, there's no point where there's no conversation to have. There's a point where you have to say, "Okay, I have to let the person go. I have to let my, you know, there's a point where you have to make the decision for your dog, uh, that it's time to go. You know, life has just gotten a little bit too gnarly and it's too much of a risk that things are going to go really bad and I'm not going to get him to the vet soon enough and he's going to be tormented.

[00:41:25]So, you got to prevent that. You got to you got to come and save the day. Yeah.

[00:41:31]You can't run away.

[00:41:33]All right.

[00:41:34]um leaving potential suffering unmitigated and allowing the consequences of inaction to perpetuate injustice. Yet so so the very argument is is it is an injustice. It is a crime.

[00:41:46]You're guilty. Okay? So if you drop the ball in this game, you're guilty. It's just the fact. All right?

[00:41:54]There's no difference between doing it maliciously and not doing it maliciously. I mean the outcome will be the outcome. The fact is this is a Yoda circumstance. There is no [ __ ] try.

[00:42:05]There's do or do not do. You either win or you fail dismally. That's it. That's the pressure you're under.

[00:42:16]So just recognize it and you know make arguments that have something to do with reality not you know facious nonsense about how you know the the sea slugs have a a a mind of their own you can't act for them or in their benefit anyway yet active prevention carries its own equally weighty risk obviously the the there's the same risk It's always just the definition of failure. And will you be a failure? Deliberate intervention, even when intended to reduce suffering, may inflict new harms.

[00:42:54]Well, yeah, that's the risk, but it's so [ __ ] slight and so [ __ ] dimminimous that how the [ __ ] could you do it worse than nature? So, this whole idea that somehow you could try to save animals and make the world worse than it is is silly. Okay, that's just too [ __ ] silly. How the [ __ ] can you make this world that exists any worse? I mean, it's just too silly, right? Is there any I can't even think of anything, right?

[00:43:22]The world that exists created all by itself the black plague. Can I do worse than that? No, I don't think so.

[00:43:31]God, I was just too stupid and morally strain from those who undertake them. Um anyway, challenging the very uh ideals of harm reduction and uh that motivate anti-natalism in the first place. So there's no real challenge that you're going to do it worse than nature. That somehow you could come up with a plan that's worse than nature's plan. There really isn't any way you could do that.

[00:43:59]All right. In navigating this tension, anti-alists confront a paradox at the heart of their philosophy. So I don't see it. I don't see. So I'm not an anti-natalist anyway. I'm an ethist. So [ __ ] that [ __ ] But anyway, there's no paradox here. All right. The desires to minimize harm collides with the unavoidable ethical consequences of action. So we know that there are lots of avoidable uh ethical consequences.

[00:44:23]You can do things carefully or you can do things poorly. So yeah, you can think about it for a decade or two or you could not. Uh you know, this isn't there's no there's no obligation to [ __ ] it up. All right. choices that may prevent future suffering simultaneously impose burden. So again, you're saying so, but you don't have any evidence of so. So there's some sort of burden, you know, but there isn't uh that perhaps even inflict harm on existing beings that somehow, you know, you're going to burn down the the house because um you know, you're going to try to put safety covers on the outlets.

[00:45:00]Okay, there's what what one in a trillion risk? What's what's the real risk? You know, too silly. I mean, we can do this proylactic thing, okay, without um breaking the man's penis. We really can. Anyway, in this sense, the ethical landscape of anti-natalism is not defined solely by avoidance of harm, but by the careful calibration of competing duties. So, no, this just one duty. Do it right.

[00:45:32]If you're going to do something, do it right. You know, that kind of thing, right? Isn't there some sort of old statement to, you know, but yes, you know, measure twice, cut once. You know, come on, do it right. Uh duties to prevent suffering, duties to uh respect existing life. So, how are you not respecting the existing life when you're trying to rescue it from being tortured? So, again, what a pile of mush. the duties to act. I mean, you know, say why just say respect existing uh dimminimous brain function. No, I don't have to uh respect dimminimous brain function.

[00:46:10]I don't have to respect non in you know dumb animals. Let's just put it that way. Let's just put it plainly. I don't have to respect the intelligence of dumb animals. Okay. The duty to act with moral integrity in the face of uncertainty. So where's the uncertainty?

[00:46:26]That's the key word, right? That there's this claim here that this is somehow a difficult question. Understanding our evolution, our creation, the fact that it is a bug planet, the fact that we're just being manipulated by this reward and punishment system that's really just made out of punishment and the taking away of punishment is just [ __ ] plain evil. And that is not uncertain. That is as pretty direct and in your face a fact as facts come.

[00:46:53]It's real hard truth. That's what we are. It's a bug [ __ ] planet. We're still basically a GI track and you know, reproductive organs. It's still just all we're here for, okay? In the natural sense, is to just keep laying [ __ ] eggs on the dead.

[00:47:16]Kill and lay an egg on it.

[00:47:20]Ultimately the future of anti-alism may demand a nuanced embrace of ethical humanity humility. So whatever that is.

[00:47:28]So this is a nothing sentence.

[00:47:30]Ultimately the future of anti-natalism may demand an unneued embrace of ethical humility.

[00:47:37]What would ethical humility be?

[00:47:41]Oh, let's just I don't know. Oh, let's just have tea and crumpets because this is all too It's all too sad and horrible.

[00:47:51]What the [ __ ] is that [ __ ] Anyway, anyway, we can't do anything. We have little tiny brains and we can't understand and we can't do anything because we we're too stupid.

[00:48:04]It's pathetic. The responsibility it entails is vast. So, this is no what the stakes are vast.

[00:48:13]Zillions of tortured animals is at stake.

[00:48:17]Zillions of hours of absolute torment is at stake.

[00:48:25]All right. And the moral terrain is treacherously complex. So again, this complexity word, what is complex about it?

[00:48:35]Nature sucks. Okay, you read this this this carnage game, this gladiator war, and that's all it is. Is idiotic. Let's make 4 billion trillion losers for everybody who gets five minutes to sit in the sun and have their crumpet. Oh, this is just so ridiculous. Anyway, recognizing the limitations of any single approach, whether that be passive restraint or proactive intervention, recognizing the limitations. So, there really isn't a limitation. You either do or you do not do. This isn't all that complicated. May be the only reliable guide through the philosophical domain in which uh every path carries profound consequences. So, this is just crap that look, there's really good theory, there's really shitty theory, there's really good logic, there's really shitty logic. This is not about all of these things being equal. All of these people opining do not have the same credibility. They're not making the same logic. They're not obeying logic.

[00:49:36]Frankly, some of them sound just like religious cooks. Humans be bad. We need to save Gaia. Gaia is crying.

[00:49:46]Yeah, that's those people are lunatics.

[00:49:48]Okay. I don't have They're not part of this rational conversation.

[00:49:52]They're part of an irrational conversation.

[00:49:56]Uh, let's see. The instensibly safer course of non-intervention may itself constitute humanity's greatest ethical failure. So why don't you say it more plainly? Okay, the stakes are huge. And if you choose to do nothing, okay, then you will in fact be just as bad as the mass murderer causing the problem because you didn't stop him. You had the chance to stop the mass murder and you didn't. Uh yet active prevention risks its own indelible harms, right? So look, anytime, you know, there's somebody in a car and it's on fire. You have to make a decision. [ __ ] is it worth it? What if I get all burned up? Oh, damn. God damn it. Yeah. You know, and what if I save him and he's already half dead and so he would have been better off if I just let him get burned to death because [ __ ] he's already halfway burned. Uh yeah, life is hard. Oh, it's tough. Yeah, you have to make tough decisions. That's a fact. It sucks. So even this part of it, it sucks so hard. I mean, it sucks that little kids have cancer. It sucks that all this [ __ ] happens. And it sucks that even when we want to do the right thing, we have to sit there and do all this angsting about [ __ ] Is something going to get in my way? Is something going to [ __ ] it up? You know, is the recipe going to go all bad? It sucks that that's the truth, but that's the truth.

[00:51:19]All right. The very agents most committed to harm reduction. Okay, let's see. Yet active prevention risks its own indelible harms uh straining the hands of anti-natalists.

[00:51:33]So again, um I I just don't I don't see it. Okay?

[00:51:40]Because you're still going to realize there's only one best choice and you're going to choose it. And all you're all that can be said is you're just going to be honest in doing it. You're not going to say, "What's in it for me?" Um, you're gonna say, "What's the right thing to do?" And you're gonna do your best to come up with that right answer.

[00:52:02]I I don't see that as being anything but honorable.

[00:52:08]And I just don't think other people are doing that. I don't think people are being honorable when they say they can make a distinction between a chimpanzee and a human being's torture. I don't think they're being honorable. I think they're being bigots.

[00:52:21]The very agents most committed to harm reduction red blood read with blood when there should be ones most free of it.

[00:52:30]The very agents committed to harm reduction red with blood. So again I don't even understand that. Um uh so that's again arguing that they're going to fail somehow and that's the red with blood or um is the argument they didn't do anything and that's the failure. I'm just saying there's just Okay, I'm laughing. Okay, the subject is so not a joke. It's insane how not a joke the subject is. I mean, what is at stake is insanely valuable.

[00:53:07]Torture, torture is at stake. How much torture there will be in the future is at stake. All right? And so all we can do, we have to do something. You can't just walk away and say it's not my business. That's not rational. So you have to deal with the fact that and the torture has nothing to do with whether humans are interfering or not, whether humans exist or not. That has nothing to do with the torture. So just as as long as the concession is made by these morons that even if I took human beings off planet Earth altogether that the first human genetic code never even existed.

[00:53:48]This problem would still be there. This torture blob that's got to go would still be there. So we aren't the problem. And the fact is we are the [ __ ] solution. We can save the day.

[00:54:04]We can erase the torture in the future.

[00:54:09]We can cleanse it of torture.

[00:54:15]So, yeah, this isn't that complicated.

[00:54:19]All right. Anyway, yeah. All right. So, I think that's enough. Um, not quite an hour. Yeah. Okay. See, but that would just be me being, you know, fuckarded and being driven by some sort of standard or tradition or something.

[00:54:40]And that's what ruins humans is bad habits. You know, they get bad habits and they can't get out of their habit.

[00:54:45]they're stuck in their addiction and they could spend, you know, decades and decades and decades, you know, wasting money buying cigarettes or doing something else stupid and um yeah, dumb. Uh so anyway, so I won't be controlled by it, I'll say.

[00:55:07]Yeah, but I'll try to talk for five more minutes. Yeah, but that's us, right? We are we are superstitious. We are um mimickers, you know. Um we're always trying to get the thing to line up right, the text to look right, the thing to look right, you know, it's always this little subtle [ __ ] that um this conformity thing uh driving us in so many ways. Uh the pedal can't be bent the wrong way on that rose. This can't be, you know, it's uh you know, we we really are fuckarded. uh and we can't be controlled by that. So uh when something looks bad, it might not be bad. And that's the key thing to understand.

[00:55:50]Extinction sounds bad, but it's not.

[00:55:55]The organisms on this planet that have gone extinct have had a huge favor done upon them. Okay, the dodo, okay, is doing much better uh not being here, frankly, because all it did was live in filth. And that's just the truth.

[00:56:13]Uh but anyway, uh and die for no good reason. Uh you know, so it somebody could lay eggs on its corpse pretty much. So we could all be fertilizer for the next generation. It's just insidiously parasitic and disgusting.

[00:56:30]Uh and nothing should be subjected to it.

[00:56:35]and especially over and over and over again.

[00:56:40]Ew. All right. Anyway, so till the next time and such and so forth and whatnot.

[00:56:48]That's enough.