Howard Berger, a renowned film historian and commentator with over 200 Kino Lorber releases, approaches film analysis through a unique lens that prioritizes understanding the creative process over personal criticism. He believes that effective commentary requires curiosity about what filmmakers were trying to achieve, what constraints they faced (budget, studio interference), and how the film works on multiple levels. Berger distinguishes himself from critics by focusing on understanding rather than judgment, and he values collaboration with other commentators who bring different observational perspectives to the same film. His approach emphasizes that cinema is fundamentally about storytelling and illusion, and that viewers should appreciate films as they are rather than judging them by modern standards.
Howard Berger (filmmaker, film historian, commentator) | Shelf Space with Kino Lorber | Ep. 26
Added:[music] Hello everyone. Welcome to Shelf Space with Kino Lorber, where we talk about all things physical media with Kino Lorber's head of acquisitions, Frank Tarzy. Today we're joined by a very special guest, Howard S. Ber. He's a filmmaker, film historian, and commentator who's worked on countless Kino Lorber releases. Howard and Frank will also be answering your audience questions. So, thank you to everyone who submitted a question ahead of time. If you would like to submit a question for a future episode, be sure to sign up for our newsletter to get on the email list.
And be sure to subscribe to the Kino Lorber YouTube channel. If you have any customer service questions, please submit those at the link in the video description below. Thank you for joining us today, Howard.
>> Thank you. This is great. Hey Howard, how are you?
>> Hey Frank. [laughter] >> So, we like to start every episode by asking how do you two know each other and how have you worked together? I'm sure you have a long history.
>> Well, it it all started with uh Nathaniel Thompson, man. You know, he was introduced to me, you know, Walt Olsen from Scorpion was friends with Nathaniel. So he that was the first you know and then eventually when I started in the beginning when I was at Olive we were not we were not doing too many commentary especially not historian commentaries.
>> Um and then uh when I came to Studio Classics I was in a very big rush to get films out as fast as possible. So when we released our first batch of films from MGM we barely did any extras. We just ported over the previous extras.
Um, and then uh when we did the Fox deal, I think uh I The Jury was the first film that I reached out to Nathaniel and then he had Steve Mitchell come in and then eventually it was the three guys, you know, so as I as I call you guys, the three amigos. Yeah. I still don't know who's Chvy Chase and who's Martin Short. Who's Steve Martin?
But you guys could fight on that yourself.
>> Nathaniel's Chvy Chase. Yeah. Uh, yeah.
I'm sorry.
>> So, >> I think [laughter] it's as of May, I think it's 11 years.
>> Yeah, it's been a it's been a long long time. And you guys, >> you guys have probably done more commentaries for me between the three of you because there's been solos and there's been duos and all of that >> uh than probably anybody else. I think you guys are probably number one. I think I mean, David Delville has done a lot. Lee Gam used to do a lot before he passed away unfortunately you know and u >> do you know how many approximately you've done for Kenino Lorber >> it's over a hundred I'm pretty sure >> it's over oh it's over a hundred yeah I mean I'm >> I think I'm over I think I'm a hair over 200 total like with the other >> and I think between the three of you it's probably going to be over 300 titles I would say easily >> because there's titles that I I know that that Nathaniel did only with you and then there's stuff that Steve Steve did by himself or Nathaniel and Steve to do together >> and then there's times that you you got like Troy Howorth or somebody else to join you, you know. So, >> yeah. Oh, or Steve, you know, also I mean I I've I've branched off with Steve sometimes and you know >> No, no, you and Steve have done a lot of solos together. Yeah, I know.
>> Yeah.
>> I've I've just started doing more solo stuff. I think I can't remember if the first was was Fright my first solo one I think.
>> Um >> it may have been. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And that's you know but yeah I mean when I when I saw you know thank goodness for Facebook where they remind you of stuff you know like oh little little reminders of your life. Yeah. I I and I didn't know until I heard you talk to Nathaniel. I had no idea that um I was like this this the either was I the fir recordingwise it may have been that Nathaniel and I did Trouble Man uh and and but I don't know when it was what the first one was released. It might have been the one with uh >> well that that and I the jury >> I think ei the jury might have came out after might have been released after troublem.
>> Yeah probably like a month after or even around the same time >> because those were those were the Fox titles that was all from the part part of the Fox deal. So >> I had no idea. I thought Nathaniel had been recording for Kino for a long time.
I I somehow I got that in my head. So, I had no idea. And he uh I only just found out the other day that I because Nathaniel said that [clears throat] was my fir that was my first I'm like that was your first what? I had no idea. I thought it was in the you know I know he had done a lot previously like with um >> for image things like that.
>> Studio Classics started in July of 2014.
So, and I think those were in 2015. So, >> so yeah. So, it makes sense because like I told you the first year I barely did any extras um or at least any new extras. And at Olive, I used to send Nathaniel discs for review and stuff like that, you know. He asked for Henny Cer and a couple other ones. So, >> Right.
>> Right.
>> So, was Nathaniel first? Was was there a order? It was Nathaniel and then Howard and then Steve.
>> Yeah, there I think Steve happened right around the same time. So, I think he did >> Trouble Men with with with Howard first and then I think like two weeks later he did um uh you know I the Jury with Steve and then eventually it was the three of them together.
Long Riders I think was the first one together all of us and then in close succession it was like Cannon for Cordoba and uh I I think that's you know and then after that it was just like you know all right I only had one I only had one thing with with any new people is I always I tell them I say you know you know I respect everything they say I can jump on any anything I can work off of anything but I I you know I know Steve.
I didn't meet, you know, I heard about him through Nathaniel for a while and then when I met him, I just said the only thing that I I care about is if you have anything negative to say about the movie, I'm going to leave.
>> Yeah. I I I walked because But he didn't, you know. No, I'm But I say it to everybody. It wasn't like I was singling him out, but I just >> Well, we we and and I appreciate that because we stopped working with certain people when they started doing that, you know, they're making fun of the movie and stuff like that. I remember there was a commentary that we acquired from Twilight Time >> through MGM for Remo Williams and it starts with oh the music score is like the only thing I like the only thing I like about this movie and here's the only thing I like about the movie and it was a music score in the opening. I'm like why are you doing a commentary? Who? It's like who who cares about your opinion? And to me it's all about like I always tell people you're not doing us a favor. If you're not a fan of the movie don't just turn it down. You know >> that's basic that's basically it for me.
I I don't see I never saw movies, you know, that way. I I've I always just wanted to understand what everyone involved was trying to do. And and then then you have the other layer, which is what they were up against, uh which is budget or producers or studio, any other interference. And then the last thing is like what how I read it because that's all I care about is if I understand the movie, you know, it's all since I was and I'm literally since I was 9 months old.
>> You have the you have the film school film student mentality like why is what does this mean and what does that mean?
But a lot of that I think especially with old school directors, it didn't mean anything. It was just a shot they put together.
>> It's a job. I mean, this is their job, which amazes me even more that >> sometimes it comes out with such vision to it. And so, so I just like that's that's where I'm at. You know, I try and fill in the blanks with, you know, whatever the discussion is. Uh, you know, uh, >> I don't I don't listen to commentaries as much as I used to. I'm sorry, Alicia, but uh but at uh I don't just don't have the time, but when I was listening to them more often and stuff like that, I remember the one you guys did with uh for Superdome and he kept on asking him, "What does this mean?" He was like >> It was on purpose. It was on purpose. He was such a delightful guy. I mean, I I I just saw I mean, I talked to him recent I saw him recently. Just saw him and his son recently. Um and you know, they were always hoping for you know, raise the Titanic. He's I mean he's 90 something and he's you know he's totally lucid great you know great stories a million stories but he's really unpretentious and I I loved that and but it was funny was I I met him because I think Quentyn uh had a at his theater the new Beverly he had a a Jerry Jameson triple feature and I had he had asked me to write um a a thing about it you know that the triple feature and I'm like oh I'm a big because he knew I was a big Jerry Jameson fan from Facebook he knew So I I wrote this thing. It was like a guide to Jerry Jameson. It was ball or tourist.
It's called the It was It was actually called the accidental a tourist for the new Bev website. And I just went down the the list of like it was like he kept making the same movie again and again and again. I'm like, and it comes down to accepting those scripts like and then he had a he also wrote so very easy for him to tailor anything that you know subject-wise that was that he could understand direct you know directing somebody with those themes or whatever but it's a job and you know TV movies especially what are they like what eight days [laughter] >> to interviewed >> we interviewed John Luwell Moxy and he talked about how he started, you know, in England, but when he came and started doing all these TV movies, it was just like, >> you know, it's just that's what they did when they made the films. They didn't really think too much about >> about it as much as like that thing the fans do, you know, cuz Moxy is such a great director. He so many really great TV movies.
>> Uh but uh but you know, the funny the thing is that for him it was just a job.
It was like a I'm hired to make movies.
>> I'm hired to direct an episode of KJack.
You know, it's not like >> I know it's you know, but you know, you grow up with it. You're you're literally growing up with it. I'm like again like I I was watching this crap from the my play pen in the basement of our building in Queens. You know, my my mom just like would just, you know, plop me down. They had a little TV set in this grungy, gross, dark basement. I remember that. I don't even think I was a year old. But she said hooked. couldn't get I would only you know then I would start to try and talk non-stop. So the only way to shut me up was to turn the TV on. I'd be suddenly unplugged in you know shut me up.
>> Where in where in Queens were you were you from?
>> Uh off Kissa Boulevard. That's >> Oh my god. I I >> That's basically Yeah, that's it. Cleing there I think. Do you remember a gust?
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. That was the I know I know cuz I was in my I was in my little bassinet and they my sister >> we say cina but you say cassenna you know whatever. So >> well we moved like >> I wasn't we weren't even I was alive like not even a year and they moved to Long Island so I have the Long Island thing.
>> Yeah. And it's it's funny that Steve was also from that area too. Steve Mitchell.
>> So you know >> Oh interesting. I was actually listening to an interview with uh I think you did an interview with Disconnected about your childhood and how much your parents were part of why you love films and [laughter] it was actually very touching. I was almost in tears when you told you you're telling that story about your dad taking you to to I forget which horror movie >> Twitch of the Death Nerve [laughter] Twitch of the Mar Bay of Blood and uh and the Creeping Flesh.
>> That's amazing that they were just like so supportive. They were so open-minded.
>> My dad was sugar. I I love I love I the you know it's I can't even believe it's 10 years that he's gone or 11 years that he's gone. That is like you know between him and my mom and I didn't you know how stupid I was. I just never realized that I was more fortunate in terms of who I got as parents than most people. So I do believe me I uh say I I my heart goes out to you truly. You can have some of mine but they're gone now. all that, you know, I can only share stories. I can't share them anymore. But, uh, >> well, I I I love my parents. You know, my dad passed away in 200, you know, Christmas of 2023.
>> Uh, and my mom is, thank God she's still around. So, so, no, they we I also had great parents and my mom my dad was a big movie fan. So, >> Oh, wow.
>> Do you guys remember any movies that they introduced you to that really became defining movies of your life?
Well, I remember my first the first movie they took me to. I remember perfectly. It was years after I had originally had come out, but it was the Love Bug and I was like four years old and that's one of my earliest >> Yeah, we had a big Love Bug. Yeah, we had an opening day love bug >> and it the line it was the first time I knew about a line to get into a movie on a hot hot summer day. It was like opening day and we were there and it was bro I remember it was broiling unless that was a you know little later but uh yeah uh yeah that was that was a wonderful but my mom didn't care my mom didn't care my mom was the one you my dad was working 200 hours a week you know my mom was the one um who would mainly you know get me you know during the week like every other day we had nothing was rural it was nothing There was nothing there but trees. There was nothing. Fields and trees and and we had one really cool uh movie theater and a mall that was going up with another cool eventually a cool movie theater. But this one movie theater was so perfect.
My mom had been a school teacher. So she had a completely open mind, you know, totally open. She was like whatever, you know, whatever they want. But she, my sister, my oldest sister was Krelll. I mean she was brilliant. She is still brilliant. And um her bookshelf had all these movie tie-ins, but they were like literature, but movie tie-in books for She didn't buy it for that.
She bought it for the the book. And there was John Bar's End of the Road.
Now, I had to have been four and a half years old when this thing came out, but it was because my sister had the book and I wanted to show my sister how world worldly I was. But it was directed by someone who eventually would become my mentor in in college, Aramakian.
And he was a brilliant editor, and he had um he had this was he chose this to be his first directorial feature. and Gordon Willis. I believe it was his first movie as cinematographer.
Um, and just a brilliant movie, but it was based on a book by John Bart. And my mom took me, she was all all it was rated X, you know, 1969X, which isn't porn, but it was pretty rough. I mean, pretty rough. Rougher than most R, you know, than R-rated movies. It's not just, you know, someone saying [ __ ] and then getting the the R rating. this was, you know, and um I remember the poor guy was empty theater in the afternoon at this neighborhood theater in the summer and the guy looked he was like sweating like [sighs] I was tiny. I was always tiny. She and she's like he's like I I can't I can't if someone you know finds you in the theater I will be fired. You know it's they they tell you they schooled us. So my mom tells him, of course, showing me off. She goes, "Look, he asked to see this." So if he's old enough to ask to see this, doesn't that make him old enough to see it? And the guy looked like he was ready to just collapse. Like he just, you know, don't make me think.
He let us in. He goes, "All right, just don't try don't tell anybody." Okay.
Say, but you know, it was great because like no concessions was fresh. No, there was nobody else to fight over concessions. I was getting hot popcorn and and it went it went over, you know, she just said, "Look, I'm here. I'll take them out if there's something that I you know, of course, I wonder why she didn't take me out [laughter] because there's a lot in that movie that I was just like, "Holy cow." Uh, but it's I had to have been like four and a half almost five. I'm pretty sure it was like four and a half. I'm late December, you know, so I was, you know, I'm always like the youngest of, you know, when I was in school, she put me in school like a year earlier. So, everyone I, you know, that I grew up with is always like a year older than me. It was only embarrassing. I hid it like I didn't tell anybody because I I felt inferior, you know, little kid. But, uh, but that's but, you know, that was my mom.
So my mom, my grandmother who lived lived with us, you know, she was like first generation European, uh, you know, and so she had, you know, nothing was taboo. I mean, there was nothing and it was all discussed. I had tons of nightmares though from like horror movies. Night of the Living Dead profoundly destroyed me. And of course, I had to go see it when I was probably about same age, like around four and a half. was playing at a matinea and I had asked I really I would wake them up at like 3:00 in the morning crying sometimes. I was just too because I was also an idiot so I also had no one's going to argue that uh I would have the horror magazine so I would cut them up and I had like 400 pictures of like Night of the Living Dead on my wall and I didn't even know what living was yet let alone living dead. So that was like holy cow. And I don't know I but but I guess the whole process had was trying to get me used to the difference between fantasy and reality when I realized what I was doing because I obsessed on film. So New York, you know, the arts and leisure section of the New York Times had full posters.
They were printing black and white but but full posters.
>> And then eventually my sister, my middle sister um was pretty hip. like she throughout my life she was really, you know, she was really pretty cool. She's like four years older than me, but she she's really sweet. She subscribed me to Variety.
I didn't know. I didn't ask her, but she knew that might be interesting to my brother, which came with full color ads and posters and slicks and oh my god, I still have them. I collected, you know, I ended up collecting that stuff. But she was like, so my whole family was like rotating whoever's old enough to get into whatever movie. I mean like we saw the de Russell's the devils completely cut. I mean I didn't know you know the boyfriend you know his movies.
So I got I got raised they really you know my dad you know they didn't he didn't know movies just he liked certain things you know but he wanted to be with the kids. He he just you know wasn't around. he was working, you know, so he just wanted, you know, family time. But my mom was smart. My mom was movie smart. Like she was raised, you know, so she just didn't think I'd be interested in just movies in general. But um I had, you know, like everybody, you know, you probably talk to most everybody just was raised on like probably horror movies when they were a little kid because it that's what was that's what was the the fly paper for for most of us.
>> Yeah. You know, the the crazy thing is that my my parents were very old-fashioned, so violence, no problem.
I could see heads being chopped off and legs being cut off, but as soon as there's a nipple on the screen, oh my [laughter] god, >> you should have called me and my mom.
>> So, I couldn't I couldn't see anything that was [laughter] that had if if HBO said nudity or brief nudity, it was like they had to watch it first to to tell me look away during that scene or whatever.
>> That's hard. And then I'm watching like uh uh what was that movie? Survive where people plane crash >> people eating people and all that.
>> Perfect example of me waking up cannibalism and all that. It was like yeah that's that's okay. Watch that at 3:00 in the morning. But >> but I never got scared. That's another thing. I would watch horror films and get scared for the next for if I watched in an apartment by myself.
>> I have to go throw away the trash or something. [laughter] I was probably a little scared. But I it would not stay with me. My younger brother was the one that would get scared and then he would like crawl into bed with me cuz he just was uh he just couldn't do >> I don't blame him.
>> Yeah. So, but I never really got scared.
I it would I wouldn't carry it on, you know, but I was more of a action fan, you know, westerns and war films and, you know, cop movies and stuff like that. So, I would never would be interested in watching the devils or something like that. So, >> Oh, it but back when I was a kid, that's that was a cornucopia. I mean like the action films because not only were there hundreds and hundreds of releases in theaters because they were like you know right I mean you have the the first release and then you have like the second tier release and then then you have the double feature repackagings and then the triple feature repackaging and it was just hard to believe in such a small rural area as the theaters grew up we had a we had probably about a good eight or nine theaters initially by like 1970 2. It blossomed after that. So we had a lot, you know, they kept paving streets, you roads, more roads.
>> Flushing had the classic theaters, you know, they had the Archo Keith that had opened in the 20s, right?
>> That was three screens originally one screen. Archo Prospect was a couple of blocks from that. That was three screens. And that usually So every Saturday I would just pay for one movie and see all three. I would just sneak into the other ones. And then we had the quartet which was four screens. So Flushing was great. And then eventually when I started going to my Man Manhattan that was insane and at 10 block radius we had like 50 theaters, you know. So >> amazing. I don't know what I would have done, you know. I barely knew what to do, you know, in Long Island, you know, I couldn't go anywhere. I was at, you know, >> I was at the behest of of someone with a car, you know, that's all I couldn't couldn't do it alone. But they I was dropped off a lot alone. as soon as I hit like maybe six years old. I mean it was that it was that uh just and don't forget like mainly it was we didn't have triple triplexes at all. We we it was it was literally back in the day where it sounds like you know horsedrawn carriage. It was it was literally like one theater, one movie, maybe a double feature. Uh then you once the college started we had a big college Stony Brook University build up next you know near our home and that started they opened a mall they opened theaters a lot of theaters small they paved more roads more highways so we we had access you know it was before it was just rolling fields and you knew where you could go and then they opened it up for us so now all these little towns started showing great things and I learned uh do you um Sioet do you know Sioset I mean that's really that's like near like you know uh >> no really west towards the city at this point and that was where we had on one side of the street it was like a 45minute drive it felt like it was a big event going you'd have the Sioset theater which was a 70 millimeter screen which showed things I remember seeing funny girl when it first came out mass I mean like for a little pee-wee that screen was huge and across Ross the street was even better. It was the one the 160 I think it was called. It was a curved so the 150. It was like it was a curved screen and that's where they showed um uh epics like uh they would they would re-release like uh how the west was one in cinama all the cinama movies. This is cinorama. We got to see all that stuff projected on like the largest screen imaginable. Uh but we also saw and this is you know this is where we were the only ones on on this massive line with children. We saw straw dogs uh Clockwork Orange when it was X again.
My poor dad had no clue. He didn't know about ratings and he was but I think his innocence like sold it you know they wanted to keep the line moving. So we were so tiny but they always use the the handout you know. Oh I'll I'll take them out. I'll take them out if nothing. But uh that was a really cool theater and that that's later where I saw um film that we did me and Nathaniel did for you uh Luna Berluchi's Luna because I was one side of the street in the 70 millimeter we were so me and my dad we were sold out of Apocalypse Now on first run so we were there it was 45minute ride so what's across the street oh Luna my dad [laughter] when when the plot of Luna started to unfold my dad was like Oh, I think that's incest. You know, it's [laughter] like what's >> Well, I I I would be honest. I don't think that's a movie that kids should watch, but you know, whatever. You know, you turn >> my kids will watch anything. I'm totally I I can't give them anything but the life I had. So, I was like, >> "No, I I I couldn't I couldn't let a little kid watch Luna or or or the Devils or something like that. I just I just don't think that their minds are, you know, but you know, like I said, it depends on the person, you know.
>> I think I was um 8 years old when I watched Naturalborn Killers or maybe some like eight between eight and 10. I was very young when I watched that. Um and Dave, uh David Lynch's Twin Peaks Firew walks with me. I was also like eight years old.
>> Well, it's just a lot of explaining, you know, we're we're that means you're you're you know, making your parents work. That's okay. Okay. I mean that, you know, I think that's fine. It's >> like they they let me watch them.
>> Did you enjoy them? Do you remember enjoying them?
>> I did. Yeah. Well, Twin Peaks Fire Walks with me kind of freaked me out a little bit, but I remember really liking Naturalborn Killers. I don't know what that says about me as a kid, but um but just wanted to go back to the commentary stuff. Um so it sounds like you grew up on film and you were it was kind of shaping, you know, you it put you on this path that led you to being a film historian and expert and commentator.
Can you tell us a little bit about your process when you approach, you know, a film to when you what what kind of research goes into that? Can you walk us through that?
>> Yeah, I mean uh it's interesting. I never asked Nathaniel or anyone. I never asked anybody what they did. It's interesting. Uh well, I watched the movie like if I haven't seen it already. I usually the movies that usually were were picked uh I I I've encountered at some point in my you know in my life ahead of time but it usually it it becomes the thing with I look at who directed it first I look at who wrote it second and then who shot it and who edited it and those are like you know the the big things the names I want to see the names if I if I'm not familiar with the whole thing I want to I want to again learn about who's doing it before I I you know I don't I don't think of opinion involves I could I could personally, you know, have a list of issues why I would have done it differently or something, but who cares?
>> I mean, like I commentator's not a critic. There's [laughter] there's some overlap between film commentator and film critic. But I feel like you have to just be a lot more curious about the film and not >> I would never be a critic. I would never be a critic.
>> It's it's a different a totally different role. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I don't I don't believe I don't believe in in crit criticism. It's like if I don't like it, then I I'll wait until I like it, you know, or then I'm qualified to make a judgment. I But why would I judge, you know? It's it makes no sense. I'm I'm depriving myself at that point, let alone the people I have to talk to. But I I I like watching I I I don't even I don't say I don't even know what it is, but I really just like um watching a film uh seeing on how many levels I can notice them working at. Like we did a Nathaniel and I thank goodness you gave it to us. Uh it was Day of the Lo a Day of the Day of the Dolphin by Mike Nichols.
It it was another one of those summer things. My dad took me and my sister and you know I I cried my eyes out that the you know just hearing and and it it's what it was the this scientist who's who's found a way to communicate with um with dolphins uh in in a manner that um gives potential for opportunity of of you know uh of understanding other species and you know and at the time it was you know uh it was Vietnam was still going on and there was a lot of paranoia uh still you know that that was those were big big movies were coming out now that were totally you know anti-government and anti you know kind of prophetic in a way or just it was always there uh and and they uncover that there's possibly a um uh a group that wants to access these intelligent dolphins, these communicative dolphins and use them to for assassination purposes. So where they can go where no one is even looking at what. So it was a French novel uh by Robert Merurl and originally I believe it was a project that Roman Palansky was going to do before um I mean once his his wife was murdered uh a lot of a lot of his had a ripple effect of what he was doing after that. Um, so there's sequences in the movie where I mean, you know, Buck Henry, I mean, if you if you know Buck Henry, he was a comedian, director, co- co-creator with Mel Brooks of, uh, the TV show Get Smart, a satist, uh, very funny guy. Um, brilliant guy and a really nice guy, too. I met him on Facebook and then we became friends because when you're when you find out you live near them, you push yourself in their world. Uh, but he was he was such a cool guy. He was the one who was doing the the voice of the the really cute little voice of the dolphins. I'm here believing for 40 years they actually got the dolphin to do it. You know, I don't why would I want to know anything else? But I I'd be cry and and Nathaniel's like, "You got to brace yourself because I know you're going to cry during the you're going to cry in the commentary." And I'm like, "I don't know. We're doing commentary." I cry. I had to tell I cried during the warned the audience. Go. Okay. I [ __ ] up. I'm crying. All right, hell with all of you. I'm like, what am I going to do?
Like, you can't run away when you're when you're stuck. But it was such a cool movie. And while I'm watching it, um, I never noticed it when I saw it like in the theater or I saw it even on on, you know, whatever laser disc whenever VHS, never noticed. But I started looking, you know, because Mike Nichols, he was very stylish in his first decade of movies. And that stopped. I mean, you know, it just he just changed his whole thing. He had, I think, uh, [snorts] manic depression and the medications that he was taking. It actually, I think, changed his style uh, starting in the mid70s after a movie, a really funny movie called The Fortune, which was um, sort of a disaster, you know, for them. Even though it was a good movie, it was not, it was chopped up and it was whatever, but it's still impressed.
Day of the Dolphin I started noticing is once I started, you know, hearing these terrible reviews of it suddenly and I'm like, who doesn't like Day of the Dolphin? Are they insane? What? It's a classic fil.
I started noticing that, you know, Mike Nichols shot really really wide screen like he shot, you know, I mean, I think it was Panavision, but it was like a a really full, you know, wide use of the frame that, you know, really would destroy it once it goes to TV, you know, that's not what the plan was back then, you know, but it was uh I started noticing that he was doing things that I saw anyway that he was doing things that basically said that he was aware that this is a movie and everything that was that we were applying to the story and the characters also worked as the characters represented him, his crew and working with producers. The villains were the studio system. And I I watched when I suddenly saw it. I'm like cuz now you know I do a commentary I'm looking right. So so that's when I I went off and I just sat through it every 10 minutes making my notes showing the frame trying to figure out the the way the frame reflects and that's just what I do now with with everything. I mean I I go I you know and and then there's the cross referential what could have inspired them or what was likeminded. Uh the we mentioned it before the first one I did with with Steve and Nathaniel together I think pretty sure it was the Long Riders by Walter Hill and that was another I had just watched Ned Kelly by Tony Richardson uh Vanessa Redgrave's ex-husband you know uh and I'm like that was with MC Jaggers a 1970 sort of Australian western you know uh And I'm like, God, did Walter Hill just like just watch that movie looped forever? So I started seeing not just, you know, connectivity between the two films, just the way they look, but also their presentation of themes like, you know, um, myth, you know, mythologizing h, you know, people, you know, what's the difference between the myth and a and a person and what are the what are the Gosh darn if if that's not what both movies were like just about. So I really, you know, that's what I that's what I enjoy. That's why I like, you know, when you have Nathaniel who comes from another total, you know, a million angles and Steve who, you know, he has his totally separate way, but you're not you're not burdened to like carry a whole load. You are constantly discussing with other people who are not there [snorts] to opinionate against you. They're there to add to the kitty.
And when to me when you have three people coming at it from three different observational directions to I that to me is just you know fascinating.
Oh yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I mean, honestly, we don't even I don't think any of us even think that way. I mean, it's like either either, you know, I think we just enjoy being, you know, we enjoy doing it, you know. Um it's it's it's um I mean life's tough enough as it is, but this is you know we're very fortunate uh you know uh that that we have the frequency of of being able to do these because um I think that's you know we wouldn't who has time to get to three people get together unless you know we have to do this we make it a thing you know and we have a couple coming up but I can't I don't I don't discuss it until I see a you know the the press release on it, but we have a couple coming up where it's just going to be us in a room for, you know, 12 hours coming up, you know, in another week or so. So, I'm like, we it's like we use that as almost like, you know, what do they say in the choir boys?
Choir practice, you know. It's like you it's almost a release, you know, till you look forward to this. This is our this is our our night out, you know. I don't I I don't go anywhere. I have I'm slave to my desk at this point, you know, thank goodness. I just, you know, hope it gets hope it gets more. Um, I still hope that Kino goes back to doing uh more video essays as well. That was that was the one he gave. Frank gave me great the the best two chances to do something was plain it was plain misty for me uh was um it certainly got the some of the best reviews of anything I'd ever been involved with. I mean, and plus the rest of the rest of the disc was superlative as well. I mean, you know, the extras, it's always good when the other extras have electricity of their own, you know, and you have Tim Lucas on commentary and you had uh a lot of really cool uh it was it was just a great a great you know I think Lauren Boero I think had also had a documentary by him for the really wonderful collection of stuff but I was again sick. I ended up also in I was in the hospital in the land right right trying to get it done and I was editing in ICU.
[laughter] I was I was cutting and and I was had this whole like 20 minute sequence about uh Hitchcock and Frank's like no you got to cut that out. We don't have the rights we don't [laughter] the rights for the for the Hitchcock. I'm like what? So, I had to I had to go back in ICU and the doctors were like, "You you really should, you know, grab some sleep." And I go, "No, no, no, no, no." I'm [laughter] like, "I can't. No, please. No." Like, you know, don't don't be mommy, you know, don't mommy me. I got to I got to But I I I had to figure out just not just to get how to convey the the same like sort of mindbending thing I was going through.
why, you know, discovering all this stuff and and that I work with a friend of mine uh Kevin Maher who is again like known him for >> is that who you do destruct destructible man with. So I wanted to ask you two more things before we move to audience questions. Uh one was about that blog and the other was about your own films.
you're also a filmmaker and I I wanted to, you know, just ask what kinds of stories you're drawn to and what what's your experience been like as [clears throat] a as a filmmaker on top of a commentator and do you learn anything from doing commentaries that you can apply to film making?
>> I hope so. I mean, some cool [ __ ] [laughter] finding out some nifty stuff I'm able to translate it into my own stuff. Uh um I don't know if I could say um yeah, we me and Kevin and some friends of some friends of my collaborator Matthew How another person we all kind of went to film school with you know back in the day when you know I think there was just VHS still I you know but it was you know I'm I'm not so fond of showing up early to a at, you know, I'll be honest, I'm not not so in love with production or whatever, but at the end of a production, if you've gotten everything you wanted and you had really good people, which was my that's been my experience so far, thank goodness, um, then it's it's great. But yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, you want to make the movie as fun as possible, as as smart.
you you want to, you know, you want to have a little origami, you know, to it where you can flip it and extend it and, you know, you don't want to just do a one note thing. So I I just like things that are just ridiculously obscenely complex, you know, and at the same time you can give a elevator pitch, like a one-s sentence elevator pitch and then Yeah, that that I like that if you I mean Frank probably knows he's probably, you know, constantly secondguing what I might not argue doing as a commentary is I like the ones that just have so many different layers of meat on the bone that people don't notice it unless you mention it and I like that. I like, you know, I've always enjoyed >> Well, you also I I think I think you look for them, too. So, that's another thing is that I think it's it's it's the way you watch >> Birds of Prey. You gave that to somebody else. Birds of Prey.
>> You watch the film and you're looking for things. So, so yeah, I mean, listen, I appreciate that. But then there's >> uh I personally, you know, um yeah, when I notice something that's obvious, that's obvious. But when it's not something that's obvious and you know this this was the issue I had a lot of times from film school and I would get on into arguments from the professors and stuff like that because this is their idea of what the scene was about and this is their idea of what this I'm like no that's [ __ ] that's your perception of that scene and I completely see it differently and when I hear filmmakers kind of defend that I appreciate that because >> uh you know a lot of times they ask David Lynch like what did you mean by this what did you see you know and >> yeah that's appreciate that. Exactly.
>> His whole thing was for everybody to get something else out of it. It's what the person watching it is what's important.
It's not what I was trying to do.
>> And the same thing with like, you know, I've heard Tarantino kind of mentioned that also. Uh so I I personally I watch from like when it's a without a doubt, you know, a [snorts] scene is completely dedicated to another movie, that's noticeable. Yeah, that that's that's one thing. But there's a lot of other times where I think if you went in there and looked for things, you would always find things, you know. So, um, so I think I think you enjoyed really when you're watching films, you enjoy doing that while I'm kind of like trying to relax and just enjoy the film.
>> I'm almost never there for the movie.
First off, I'm never I'm almost never for >> that's it's it's really true. I don't I don't >> that's why I cannot deal with I cannot deal with a lot of foreign films and a lot of pretentious stuff anymore. I'm getting too old for that stuff. So So the a lot of the things that I had patience watching when I was in my 20s and 30s.
>> I I can't I can't do that no more. I'm just like I'm like you know you're you're a pretentious prick. Go. You made this film for yourself. You have no respect for the audience. You know so I'm I'm I'm not going to watch your films no more. And there's a lot of major direct foreign film foreign directors that I just cannot stand because they continue to do that, you know. And uh >> Yeah.
>> Oh, I was going to say the ones that are alive, I think, are the ones that I I would I think I agree with you on is the ones that are gone. They wrote lang to me. They wrote language. So I'm like I can argue.
>> Film film for me is like and when it comes to it is really like escapism.
It's something to get my mind off all the garbage that's going on in in the world and my life and stuff like that.
So yeah, there are times you watch a film that has, you know, historical and stuff like that, those films are different than what but when you're watching something like, you know, whatever where Eagles There or something like that, you're not thinking about, oh, wait, that makes sense and this doesn't make sense. No, whatever.
>> That director posed to my mom by the way.
>> My god. I'm like, [laughter] I don't Well, what happened? Well, you wouldn't have been here, so what do you care about? Like >> he was an actor director. He was an actor and he had like the most I think the the thickest Bronx accent uh imaginable, you know. But uh >> uh yeah, she said he he he directed some good movies. Uh you know, Kelly's Heroes is really good, too. And some other ones, too. So, >> yeah. XYZ um Night uh what's the one uh shoot scary movie with Elizabeth Taylor.
Nightw Watch that's he never saw. a high high road to China. I think that was like he came back for that or something.
>> Yeah, I saw that. It was it was fun. It was okay. It was It was trying to be It was trying to be It was like >> Tom Cull regretted turning down Raiders of the [laughter] Lost Stark. So So he tried to make a version of that. But >> but it wasn't even anything close to >> I love that film is different things for each of you. Frank, for you it's escapism. Howard, for you it's almost like an excavation site. We love to just Yeah, >> it's something it's like a a mystery to solve.
>> It's become more and more escapism for me now, Alicia. It wasn't always that. I think now I just don't have patience. I don't have patience for pretentious stuff and u hidden messages and all that crap. I'm just like, "Okay, whatever."
Yeah, good for you. I'm bored. I'm going to change the channel. So, [laughter] uh >> it's fair, man. It's your life, you know? You got you only get one shot. So that's I I hear you.
>> Um well, before we move to audience questions, I do want to ask about Deconstructible Man. Is that That's what it's called. Ra, is it still going on?
Is it still happen?
>> Oh. Oh, yeah. In fact, poor Frank. I I don't know who's listening to the commentaries when I hand them in. The last couple that I did were both destructal man uh deconstructions within the the thing. uh The Man upstairs, the Don Chaffy movie uh with Richard Attenboroough and um uh The Island, Michael's Michael Richie's The Island. Um what Destructible Man is is Kevin and I, we used to watch movies and just superficially we just laugh our heads off at every time we would see a dummy death, which was like when you replace an actor with a special effects dummy and a a violent scene. It doesn't have to be death, but it it most of a most often is. Um, and and we would we would just compile them and just go, "Oh my god, we've watched like had like a registry of films with like dummy deaths in it, which were just hilarious because sometimes you would notice very obviously like a person turning into a sack of laundry with no joints and, you know, falling through then just out a building or whatever." Yeah.
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. They get creamed in a million different ways. Thank thankfully. But um then suddenly one day because Kevin would would come over, you know, he also he does like museum installations and stuff. So uh he would just when you know if he had like a month free, he literally would come to my place, stay with me for like a month and we would just watch movies until we passed out, wake up, get food, watch more movies until we passed out. And this is like for like a month if we had the chance. any any time we would do this. So we had a pretty thick registry of this effect for a while. We started noticing like the fact that well okay it's an abstraction. People are being you have to believe this. They want you to not notice that this effect is happening.
They want you to see a character dying.
The only purpose of a movie is so you do like Premier magazine really kind of ruined this whole thing. You're supposed to go to a movie. You're supposed to experience the movie like it's real and you're supposed to react to it like it's real and fall into however successfully uh for you the communicate the skills of the director and crew managed to pull off this delusional environment. This this thing that's not absolutely not real at all in in any shape or form. It's not real. It takes months to do and takes seconds to watch. Makes no sense that it's playing out like that. To me, it's like a gift.
But you start to realize what a dummy death is. And that is, you know, it's an illusion, which is what cinema is. It's a deception, which is what cinema is.
It's a um a transformation because whether you like it or not, if you see your character, not the actor, the character transform into something inadeimate in your visual plane, it's not you're suddenly then like wait this is a movie. Oh, there's a reality issue here. So then you start looking see so all these things you know there's a transformation again whether you like it or not. That's the nature of the medium is something's happening and you're seeing it or you're not noticing it.
You're just noticing the character dying or getting badly hurt because some people don't notice it. So, we started from there and then we started realizing that there's like all of a sudden you're going to start to see in every single one of these movies, every single one, even if it's just one dummy death for half a second, you're going to see um mirrors, photographs, sculptures, paintings, drawings, shadows, and it just goes on and on and on. No matter what, it doesn't have to be like a expressionist film or a big director. It is tapped into the crew's subconscious of I think not consciously but they in the the amiic group that is forming this reality. They think that they uh in the back of their head that they everything has to work and to do that suddenly it untaps this font of um of of like likeminded expression. It's storytelling. It's just how you safely save an actor's life when you're making the movie. But really what's happening is you start to watch it and you start seeing all these like a shell game. So, like the production designers and the director and the they're all doing this shell game of distractions of abstractions of people throughout the movie non-stop. And I'm I'm guaranteeing you will start to watch a movie and you'll start to see this and you'll go, "Okay, when's the dummy death coming?" And mo more often than not, you will get you will get one. The one time, and again I thank Frank for giving us this one, was Mirage, Edward Dmitri, who totally has put dummy deaths in his movies from day one. And Mirage had no dummy death, but it was the already in his language, his style. So maybe the producers uh or the studio said, "No graphic violence on this one. just make this a Hitchcockian, a clean Hitchcockian thrill, you know, oldfashioned thriller.
He had Peter Stone writing the script who did Charade.
So, it was but it's it's all there. All the visual clues and all the uh thematic clues. And this is the other half is the themes.
You're going to have themes about identity because look at what you're expecting an audience to do. It's a character who's losing his humanity and then so identity transformation big especially if a character has an arc big even in a character arc something amazingly cruel and and and changes his whole he's a different person or the group of people change by the end you'll start seeing all these themes and visual clues. So that's what we started to see and you know we have a registry that's in the thousands. So you know my god but it's it's there. Then I found out I just did a little just to tie it up. I did a little you know because we want to make a either a show out of this or we want to do we have I had a blog but we we got entrenched in tons of work so we we couldn't really keep up the blog. we're probably going, we did it this way, extended it with these projects. But I found out that the uh historically, as far as I could find, the first edit in a motion picture was a decapitation and it was it was a dummy death. And the movie was 56 seconds long, and it was like in the late 1800s. And so it's in the genetics, the DNA of of film making. And that's why by the time you're getting uh Demetri's Mirage, it's he doesn't even have to do that effect anymore. It's in the personal storytelling. It's in the way he's already adopted his themes and his things. And um a lot of there's so many directors that that >> Yeah. But Howard, I mean, there's time sometimes it's just because it's the cheapest way to do something, you know.
It's not.
>> Absolutely. It is. I don't believe it's a conscious when I watch a movie. When I watch a movie like that and I see something that's obviously when Adventures of Captain Marvel picks up a guy and throws him off a cliff, >> you know that's the dummy that got just thrown off the cliff. But watch >> for me. I I [laughter] could watch it and I could just I could just move on to the next thing just like >> that's why it's design it's designed like that. It is is it is unconscious application of skill.
>> Yeah. So for me it's like it's never been an issue of like oh like even on a newer film sometimes there certain things that is going to be done to a body that cannot be they cannot use a human being to do it. Uh you know I know you uh you asked me about dragged ac across concrete like his films have them >> right.
>> Uh but the but that's because when you're stomping on a guy's head and and pummeling it you cannot have a real person there. So >> it's a practical effect. There's no I do not believe there is one second of a conscious decision out of a pretention >> to do this. It's there and that's what makes it a phenomenon and that's I think you're not going to find many other um types of medium that that can allow this. It is simply just storytelling.
It's a way that people knew how to make you but but you start to think for a second, right? It's like, "Oh, I have to believe this movie is real because otherwise I'm not going to enjoy the movie." But then you go, you know, just like you notice one thing which is a doorway to like psychological hell for like anyone who's even remotely what is it called? Uh um attention deficit. You know, they're going to find the one thing and they're like, "Oh my god, it's weird. It's >> it took it took a long time for them to actually have stuntmen jump off buildings, you know, and then and and you know, Sharky's Machine was one of the first ones that I could remember where you could see that's a real person jumping off like a maniac jumping off a building. And then there's, you know, films uh I'm forgetting that film with Lud Diamond Phillips where the devil takes over the body of >> Oh, yeah. Uh the First Power. Yeah, the first power has that great scene where he just walks off the building and the stunt man that did that. We interviewed that the lead the lead villain >> and he told a story about how >> when he was standing down there waiting for the guy to do to the scene because he just walks off the building and lands on the ground uh and uh he said it was a girl standing with like a tarp and I was like what are you doing here? She was like, "Oh, I'm his girlfriend." And he said, "Just in case it doesn't go right, >> to cover up my body." And that is insane when you think about that. Now everything is now green screen and CGI.
>> Yeah.
>> But you still have people like Tom Cruz is crazy enough to do crazy stunts, you know, and and it's always >> Yeah. And Jackie Chan did all his own stunts for a long long time.
>> Crazy. Uh so I I think it was a most of the time when dummies were used is mainly because you know there was no willing to do that.
>> There's no Yeah. There's a no and that's why you know I love to corner certain directors and just ask about how they tell like you like you ask like how what do you apply what where did you come from? What did you see? How did you do this? you know, uh, and I I don't ever let them know that I read their films because of a certain way of of reading them. Um, why would I? I mean, it's they're not thinking like that.
They're thinking, I have to get this film done. I have so much such and so many days. I have such and such. It's a job. And it's only a job. uh and some really care more and and and and I think thank them everything for the position to be able to have this as their job, you know. Uh I don't think there's any conscious it can't be it's in the medium. It's in the it's in the the the what happens when you use a certain alphabet. That's just it. And you know, you can only you can only spell certain words could could be could look infinite, but it's going to be in it's a certain language, certain alphabet, and that then this what you get. Um so I I that's why I just love it. It it opens it opens up most most films for me and most directors um because then you see what happens when they um like I said with like Mirage, they're they're not allowed to to play their their game the way they they know how to play it. Um you know, we we just did one film. It's not been announced, I don't think, so I can't say it, but um uh Nathaniel and I just did. And there's dummy deaths from like minute one. And yet every single theme in the movie applies, you know, it's just always the same thing. I mean, even if you even if you took that one uh the first one, like I said, the 53 second one, you're going to start to see this exact same thematic and the exact same thing. There's all sorts of brick also when you have things that are just you know uh what is it called happen stance like on your production like if if you're like in this one the very first movie um you it's like I say it's transformation you're w if you notice if you notice it's a dummy and then it goes back to a human being or something after like a fall or something >> then you notice it.
>> Yeah. And then and that 56 movie was pro was was without a doubt very effective when it came out. When people saw that originally they probably screamed like hell and say what the hell we just watched. So it was really effective at that time and I think when we watch old special effects you know you watch uh a Ray Harryhausen thing now it's ridiculous. You know it's got it's a lot of fun to watch them but you have to like >> you know whenever people say oh this is really bad special effects. I'm like, "No, you got to just let that go." And you still got to watch the films and and and uh and and just just buy into it. If you don't buy into that, if you don't buy into >> the that that it's like a fantasy and it was done with miniatures and stuff like that, then you just you shouldn't watch the film because you would you you're going to just going to sit there and laugh at at everything that you see there.
>> Yeah. So just like people I I hate the fact when I go to film forum a lot of these pretentious people that show up there they laugh at the dialogue because it's 194 >> stopped a long time ago >> and and I I can't watch movies like that if you're going to Yeah. Okay. The dialogue is aged. They spoke a different way. People don't speak like that anymore. But that doesn't mean that you got to sit there and laugh at it.
>> All right. Well, I think we need to move on to audience questions. Um >> Sure. Sorry to cut the the but I love that that whole thing. Um and you know long live practical effects and long lives don't stunt.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Um >> but yes, let's move on to audience questions. Uh the first question is from Alex Leyon and it's for both of you.
What is a film that brings your spirits back up no matter how hard life is at the current moment? A film that brings light back into your life. If you if I haven't seen it, I'd love to. I can use some light right now. Oh well. What are your wrecks?
Frank, >> go ahead. No, you go ahead.
>> Um, there's there's a few, but the one that has survived two, there's two and it's childhood related totally. I mean, look, was uh it's a mad mad mad mad world and the 1967 Casino Royale.
every second of those movies >> just inflate my heart with with such neverending joy. In fact, I know if I like usually before a flight, I know when when Kevin Moore and I we we went we were asked to go show our film in in Rome in Italy. So, we we we went for the festival. We never been to Italy. So we before a flight I figure if anything's going to happen I want to get Casino Royale in one more time before [laughter] before I don't make it back home. So we actually but we agreed like immediately I blow up the RA laser disc for Casino Royale. We watch Casino Royale. There's just something about it.
I don't know. It must trigger a million thoughts in my head from when I saw it originally at the age of like you know three or four years old. Both of them.
And I both saw I saw them both in the theater at some point. Um and and both were you know uh but those are and of course you know the Mad Man Band world nobody dies in it I don't think but >> there's there's people transforming into dummies flying at climax is like 10 people in der dummy form flying off their to their intended you know their deaths but love >> yeah Michael Schlesinger that was Michael Schlesinger's favorite movie of all time who passed unfortunately a good friend of mine he passed away >> one it's a mad mad world was his favorite movie and I think one 123 was his second favorite movie of all time >> uh for me I I don't know if I have a film but it is the films like >> films like we eagles there I think I watch every one year or two years I don't watch anything that often anymore but I would say if a movie that I want to just smile and have a good time is the Pink Panther Strikes Again >> I think it's the it's the most insane of the of the the series >> it's Herbert Law is at his best. I think he's I think uh Peter Cers is incredible in that. I think that movie is like start to finish, you know, the whole opening scene at the insane asylum and everything else. It's just it's just an incredible movie. Uh I think that uh you know uh yeah, I it's a Mad Mad World is like a really it's a it's a really good Casino Royale is it's such a crazy movie. is so badly so bad at the same time as being kind of fun and colorful and all these different directors. It's such a mess. But but I [laughter] could >> but I could understand it's a mad mad world. That's a good one. So >> yeah.
>> Well, man world is great cuz because he was you think who's doing it? Stanley Kramer said he just got off of what?
Judgment at Nerburgg about the Holocaust trials and Inherit the Wind and all these heavy social I mean this was a heavy social movie too. I mean that they didn't escape the you know satire but he did that. I mean and you know my sister the oldest one she saw it she's like why why are you watching it's the most depressing movie I've ever seen in my life. like everyone's a loser and nothing happy happens. It's just absolute ghoulish misery. And I'm like I think that's why it's funny, you know? I couldn't explain it any other way. But she was like like, "Oh, that's depressing." You know, >> I don't I don't I don't I don't see it as depressing because it's a kid. If you if you're rooting for the for the for the characters, yeah, they don't get anything in the end. But >> but they all they're still they're all still alive, you know, and uh >> but I thought it was cool.
>> And they all have a great laugh in the end when when she falls down.
>> Exactly. It's the shifting of point of view of what is funny. I mean, that's brilliant. Brilliant.
>> It's brilliant. It is.
>> Oh, >> yeah. I love >> Yeah. Well, Amaly Alicia, I agree with you so much about that film because that's that's like the first September 11 hit me so hard uh that it was like it was such a horrible thing to go through through and then I remember when I saw that film and it just I don't know it made me like think positive things about life again. It was like the first movie that makes me do that. So yeah, I think it's like a beautiful film. It's like such a positive movie. Um, and uh, you know, yeah, it's Yeah, it's like the music is incredible and the performances are amazing. So, yeah. So, go ahead with the next question, Alicia.
[snorts] >> Uh, we've released everything we could.
There's uh uh some titles with Fox that are right now under lock uh uh you know with with Disney and then there's a couple of movies with Sony and we have a hard time agreeing with them on mastering and who's going to pay for the mastering and all this other stuff and so there's not much left. Um but uh so unfortunately I don't know I don't see anything coming anytime it's soon. Uh, I think the one title that's available to us is Southwest Passage, but I don't know if we want to take a chance on that. The numbers for the last few releases have not been great. Um, so yeah, so I don't unfortunately I don't think we're going to be releasing any anything anytime soon.
>> Oh, money from home, but that's >> Oh, money for money for home is he knows about money from home when he's asking.
So money from home is coming and hyperspace is coming and the rec construction of the bubble the the >> Oh, I didn't know that.
>> Yeah, that's that's coming. You know, that's the what do you call it? The >> good >> the longer cut is coming out. So, um >> Oh, wow.
>> Yeah, it's not it's just it's just what do you call it that uh that has the opening overure and all that stuff added. So, >> cool.
Unless he's thinking of the makeup guy.
[laughter] He's a great guy, too.
[snorts] Uh yeah. Yeah, there's a couple there's a couple on universal um that we're going to we're looking at either remastering. We're going to take a look at the masters, the current masters, see if we're happy with it or not, but most likely we're going to do new transfers of those. Um I'm looking into more and more of those with uh you know hopefully with Paramount and MGM and everybody else. So, um the new MGM deal, which is right now moving at a very slow pace, uh we're going to end up signing the renewals first and then eventually we're going to hopefully get the deal done that they there's some really fun kind of cool little collections that I've come out I've curated where I'm, you know, I'm trying to put together uh, you know, find ways to release smaller films that would have a hard time standing on their own, but would have um that would do much better as a as a part of a collection, you know. So, >> yeah, just for a second it to cut out.
He cut out.
>> Yeah. I'm sorry. I think my headphone fell off. But >> you're back.
>> Yeah. So, yeah. So, so, so I'm I'm trying to I'm figuring out ways of like releasing some smaller titles and you know just similar to what we've done with the Brit films and uh malfence you know which we did with the films of Eve's bos you know and uh uh it's it's like those films on their own we cannot release but I think if we put them in a collection I think we have a better chance of uh them working for us. So >> you've been doing great with the French directors like Gil Gil Granier and I mean I couldn't even be you know I couldn't thank you more for a lot of these. I this is I mean so many people don't know you know I mean they don't know this era of of French directors and they're mindboggling. I mean we're used to we're you everyone thinks they've seen seen it all already and it's and there's it's just an untapped source at this point.
>> Yeah. Most people most people have only seen the the the art house French films and >> and the only I guess kind of crime director that was well known was John Poll, >> right?
>> The rest of these guys, you know, I mean, Jacqu D, you know, and >> uh you know, these these guys are these guys are incredible, you know, they made some great great movies. So So I'm very happy to be releasing those. I wish there was um you know it it only works when the studio is willing to work with us where they take willing to take a little bit less per film because they're going to be part of a box set.
>> Uh we're not going to, you know, so so so that's that's one thing we're going to try to do more of. including comedies.
Ah, I don't think of it in terms of that. Uh, it's interesting you ask. I honestly have decided a long time ago that what I'm watching is u is the world that I'm watching. So if you're someone who talks like this, uh that's the character.
Uh so you know at some level at some point usually on rewatches I'll have to start looking at it on a a superficial level you know more superficial level of of like what what is actually happening is that these are actors who've been asked to do uh but that means I have to come in with a series of expectations for what they have what I want them to give me and and I I stopped I stopped doing that a long time ago, you know, we're talking like probably by the 70s I had to make decisions and I was like I just don't after a while it was just second nature. So it's honestly I don't expect anything from anybody and uh so every ex watching everything on on that level that you're asking you know that kind of like what do I look for? I don't I'm not looking for anything. I'm I'm really just waiting to be to be shown where where I'm at. And that's the whole point like and and again I have to say I think because I was put in this position um and again Frank I thank you I mean there's nothing the two word I don't know other words that I can say this for but honestly it's you know very thankful for the for this uh opportunity.
I'm working a lot of times with other people and I'm not going to interrupt them to tell them what they're thinking is wrong. They're just telling me what they're thinking. So I'm trying to appreciate it not just from what I experience, but I'm also I'm also learning, right? I'm trying to listen and learn at the same time. So I'm not my brain's not constantly contradicting other other things. Critics I never had sorry critics. I know you're probably very good people. a lot I know a lot of great critics but I don't I unless you're a filmmaker who personally um needs to absorb your idea of perfection you know that's really going to be tough but that's how a lot of directors work they they they watch and in their mind they know I can do this better I mean according to their own thoughts I don't I don't think like that I I really trying my very best.
>> I I don't think Howard I don't think they think they could do better. I think they're very Their whole job is to criticize things.
>> Oh, I know people who say [laughter] they're full of [ __ ] They're full they're full of [ __ ] That's the same as they are.
>> Uh, you know, they say most people that teach can't do. Most people that criticize can't do either. So, that's that's New York so much. You know, I >> you could have made great movies. You would have gone and made it. I I personally think I would have I could have been a really good director, but but until I do make something, I'm full of [ __ ] So So that's the way that's the way I I look at it. Uh I I think that performances is all in the eye of the beholder. I'm very My favorite actor of all time is Gene Hackman because he was so natural. He was so if he played a killer or if he played like your father, he was naturally great. It never looked like he was giving a performance.
Then there's also great performances of theatrical, you know, a lot of British performers. You know, you watch something like Sandus the Lambs, that might be a little hammy to some people, but I love Anthony Hopkins's performance that and also Judy Foster's is very or dramatic pauses and all of that stuff that that people have issues with, but I think they're great performances. Now my preference is always like the more natural the more just subtle the early Pacino early Pacino like when he did the Godfather and he's talking to his father he's talking to Fredo and stuff like that.
>> Yeah.
>> Or when you watch him talk his Afternoon Serpico he was such an the later Poccino was very dramatic and ooah and all of that. So [laughter] it's but they're both really fun to watch you know they're different. You know, you mentioned that that there was a pi this a recent Pacino that you had given us which I >> honestly >> Ellen Barkin in Sea of Love. I just thought took me I mean literally just I didn't you know I I was so used to seeing um uh different types of performances of characters like that and I see she just rewrote that whole she created a a I think a thoroughly unique character where it actually worked more towards the mystery of what you know they wanted from the audience like to not just not be prepared for any angle at >> Yeah. Well, she's she single-handedly I think >> she was great in that film and I think she was great in the Big E. She was great in the Big Easy >> Big Easy Another one. It's another >> she's she's like she's really really underrated as an actress. I think she's really great. So >> yeah, she's she was but that that's like an example of something which just took me by surprise because again I'm I'm not expecting anything. I don't even I don't even know where the story >> you're not looking for it even. So, yeah.
>> No, but that, you know, but I would I would that I would point at there there's some people out there who really >> it's like >> transcend >> good acting you don't notice. Bad acting you notice. And it's like [laughter] >> But bad acting could be fun too. Bad acting could be a lot of fun if you watch a >> It really depends on the genre too cuz like with a comedy sometimes you want that really over-the-top >> Exactly. or or camp which is again some directors.
>> Yeah. But that's different. That's actually intentional.
>> Hard for dead.
>> They're intentionally doing that. The comedians are intentionally trying to be over the top.
>> I'm talking about bad acting and a bad Sometimes bad movies are a lot of fun to watch. They're just like, >> "Yeah, >> I never saw it yet. I have I'm still waiting."
>> Like Steel Just Steel Justice when you have when Michael Kov is the best actor you have in a movie.
>> Justice. Yeah, that's a good one.
>> I mean, the car the supporting characters in that movie are >> I'm not talking about the I'm not talking about Ronnie Cox and the other people. I'm talking about the really really smaller roles. None of those people could act. I don't I think they run out of money so they couldn't hire professional actors anymore because the Asian guy, his buddy, the young girl, all of them, they cannot act. And they it's really really funny, you know. And that movie is insane, you know. That movie has in the middle of it has a music video by Animotion in it, you know. So, uh, so [laughter] >> when I get back east, we're gonna have fun. I like I like I like what I like what you how you spend your time.
[laughter] >> I'm jealous. I need to come up to New York. Um this next question is for Frank. Um this is kind of a good example of a higher level question about just how the industry works. Um and you know what is possible in terms of releasing things on physical. But Peter Young is asking, "I do not stream. I would like to have timely DVD access to currently streaming TV series. Is this possible?
Many of the current hit series do not seem to be available for DVD purchase.
>> Well, a lot of those are not they're intentionally not available. The the you know like Netflix would never uh license their really great TV shows. I don't think they will because their whole thing is that they it's only they want to make sure only you could only watch it on Netflix or when they uh uh uh license it to HBO Max or somebody like that's where only place you're going to watch it. That's their whole thing is that they don't want it to be they don't want physical media and then I know that a lot of other the only reason you have like some shows like Jack Reacher and other ones come out and you know and of course I'm not sure if the Marvel comic ones have come out is because there is like a huge demand for those where they're going to make a lot of money. uh when a film when a show is streaming uh um constantly and it's available everywhere else, they're not going to come out on disc because that the sales are not going to be first of all that great because it's being it's available everywhere. And >> second, uh the the the studio that owns them usually don't want to license them.
You know, I I would have I would love to release a lot more TV shows, but TV shows take a lot of work. You know, if you to put out something with like let's say seven seasons, 22 episodes, each season is like 11 movies that you have to remaster and then commentaries and all those other thing. They take so much work to uh that's why everything that I've released so far has been very short and small. So, but yeah, that's that's the main reason is that they don't, you know, Amazon Prime is not going to be licensing a lot of their TV shows. I mean, Netflix has David Fincher movies that haven't been released, you know, on Corn Brothers Corn Brothers. They have Adam one Academy Award. Where is that one?
Like, no.
>> Adam Sandler movies and everything. The only ones that they've licensed is the ones the Criterion, >> the art house ones, the ones that won Oscars and stuff. So, >> um, well, we have time for maybe two or three more questions. Um, this next question is for Howard. Uh, Bill asks, "How did you get started doing commentaries? Was it a specific disc you were watching that made you go, I can do that."
I had started not with commentaries but being a talking head for Arrow. Uh friend of mine uh would come to America to interview directors whatnot for certain, you know, they they'd give him a blanket slate of certain projects and he would go, you know, New York, LA, and he would always grab me and I would do some commentary stuff. not comment um you know um in these little short thing just talking heads and >> for for featurettes and stuff like that.
>> Features exactly and then I got a call from Nathaniel [laughter] that was like I'm I'm trying to think if I did I had done a couple for Arrow. I had done uh Life Force with um Douglas Smith who was the guy who in Star Wars created the TIE fighters and and the you know was that Arrow was >> um no that was that was Arrow but that's for 14 years ago and then >> and then they ported it over again just recently I think to a new release and then Shout I think might have also ported over and then imprint ported it over. So, but that's like, you know, one of like, you know, how they are now they're stacked. You have like four different audio commentaries going on a thing. Uh, so, uh, I may have done that.
I may have done another one, whatever.
But I was mainly a talking head and then Nathaniel asked me for um to do uh, Trouble Man. And then it just started like, you know, every couple of weeks there'd be two or maybe three titles and we we would just get together and watch stuff anyway.
>> Yeah. So, >> and we've given we've given people their first >> first job so many times. I mean, Lee Gamin always credited us for us and and other people too, you know. So, >> yeah, Lee didn't do enough. You know, I I even internationally, I mean, it's you start to realize like, is there any more, you know, is there any more?
>> You know what's what was the best thing about Lee was that I would offer him a movie. He's like, I've never seen it. I was like, do you want to watch it? He was like, yeah, let me watch it. He watches it and like two hours later he's like, "Oh, I love to do this."
>> Yeah.
>> Like he loved everything. He saw something really good in every film that he watched >> and he even if he wasn't there's like a in his a lot of stuff was off script and he would just talk and just talk about the stuff and research and he was really good at what he did. So unfortunately >> there's a guy that I see has been doing stuff for you lately and he he had a he had a good podcast. I I was only just introduced to it maybe about a year or so ago. Uh Heath Holland. Uh and I think he does some similar vibe of like >> wow like he's going to tackle this one like he >> you don't even hear this mentioned in a bar, you know, like but he's going to go and so that I I I I enjoy the perspective, you know, and the and the I guess the bravery of of just trying to make >> the only reason the only reason I'm doing the only reason I'm doing this show is because of Heath. because Heath was the first person to kind of like get me out of like my shell and say, "Hey, can you come on my show?"
>> So, I did I did Yeah. Serial at Midnight. I did like two three episodes with him and then >> people at Kino was like, "Hey, maybe you should do your own thing." And I was like, "I don't know."
>> Cuz I'm I'm always been about behind being behind the camera. I don't want to be in front of the screen.
>> And now I'm like kind of >> now 25 episodes later. I mean, you're a natural clearly.
>> I've been enjoying every second of it.
And Alicia is great. So, so I'm not I may [ __ ] [ __ ] mode too soon.
>> Well, I'm kind of thinking about doing something on my own too, but that's a whole different thing. But >> where I would I would just talk about other stuff and not just keynote related, you know, no politics, but you know, >> but >> Well, let's end on a u a quick and easy one that I think probably a lot of people are wondering. Justin asks, Frank, is Death Wish 2 coming to 4K? Uh, no. I had said we may do we we will do it. Uh, the studio wanted to hold on to it, so they're probably going to put it out themselves. Um, we have Death Wish One from uh, well, you know, Venegger Syndrome already put it out on 4K, so technically it's already been released. Um, we were going to re-release it so we would have one, two, and three in in the market, but uh, I the studio wanted to hold on to it.
So, I think they're going to put out two. I may release four on 4K, but only in SDR, but I'm not really sure if I'm going to do that or not, but I may do it. And >> nice dummy deaths in that one.
>> Yes, you're going to love it. [laughter] So, and then there's also uh there's also I mean I guess I I always kind of like uh confirm a title. This is very minor. It's like we have N, you know, the Eddie Murphy Nutty Professor.
We just added uh the sequel, The Clumps.
[laughter] So, Denny Professor 2 is also gonna come out on 4K. So, they're both gonna come out on for Hercules.
Hercules. Yeah. [laughter] I think I think I think Eddie I think Eddie Murphy should have at least been nominated for an Oscar for that movie, for the first one. You know, the the scene when he talks to his mom is heartbreaking >> and he talks to his mom about being fat and overweight and all that stuff and it's like he's playing his mom and it's him, but you don't even you like get lost in the scene because it's like such a beautiful scene of uh son talking to to his mom and and you completely forget that this Eddie Murphy playing both roles and I think he he was great in that movie. Um, but you know, unfortunat unfortunately comedies a lot of time don't get nominated. So, >> well, I think that's a good note to end on. Um, thank you so much, Howard, for being >> Thank you guys.
>> Let me ask Howard one last thing.
Howard, have Howard, have you ever acted?
>> Acted?
Have I?
>> Not in any major way. I probably wouldn't be able >> Nothing Nothing on stage or anything like that. You probably wouldn't be able to remember one line, let I can't remember an hour ago, let alone one line.
>> Well, I I I I I did some acting in and and and high school and drama. I did some I did some acting in high school on stage.
>> And that's when I realized how much harder it was to do comedy than drama.
Drama is easy. You just do the role, you see. Comedy is all about hitting the notes. It's like playing music and and if you miss one note, the scene is not funny anymore.
>> Yeah. I the the the the the film that I had done that people see is we're preparing it for hopefully a Blu-ray release. Keep your ears open. Um it's called Original Sins and um it it it was a comedy and I had never attempted anything like that. I I thought it was the most difficult thing to do is um to hope that an actor can feel I mean because it's hard because you're you like you were me Frank was mentioning before it's like there is a tonality to comedy where if the actor doesn't you know the director may want it broad and comic and comic bookish you know but then also there's ways that it's only you're only going to get the laugh if People don't expect it if it looks like awkward in some way. You don't expect uh you're wondering are they trying to be funny? Are they not?
So there's a certain deadpan thing that that is it's very difficult and I it's hard how do you ask an actor to do and I was very very fortunate with with the performances in this little movie and um they we we were asked to come to Rome Italy to to screen it and then they had me back the next year. I remember Jean Roland got sick but they asked me to come back. It was the first it was the first feature in 15 years of the festival that sold out because of the the controversy whatever about the comedy. But it turned out that they I was surrounded by someone when I came back the next year. It was terrifying to me because I thought they were going to, you know, kill me, stone me or something. A group of people surrounded me and they go, "Are you Howard?" Like they remembered my name and I'm like, "Oh no." Because I was a juror. I was asked to come back. John Ran got sick and I they asked me to take his place as a juror. So I'm there, but I'm surrounded by these people and I'm like, "Oh my god, they're gonna this is they waited a year. Now they're going to throw stones at me." You know, cuz they that you if you've ever been there, boy, you've sit in a movie and their crowds rip the theater down. They like throw things. They scream at the screen like they get they get interactive. So I was terrified. And this I guess they had elected one woman to come up to me who could speak English properly and not you know and she she said are you I said yeah I am. Oh no just who set you up to this like we really liked your movie.
Are you showing it this year? No I'm a juror. I said but thank you so much. If if one performer got any aspect of that wrong, it would just have fallen flat, you know, completely flat. So, I really admire, >> you know, because it has to be multiple visions working together.
>> Ain't going to work. It's just not going to work.
>> I totally I totally relate. I'm an actor and a filmmaker. So, >> all right. You guys are so much braver than me. I don't know if I would ever >> actors that could do both really great like Brian Cranston who people forget that he before Breaking Bad he was in Malcolm you know he's Malcolm's dad >> and he's so you know then you look at Jeff Daniels you know Jeff Daniels in Dumb and Dumber like keeps up with with Jim Carrey >> how does he do it I don't know but he somehow like holds his own with Jim Carrey and that's and he's a great dramatic actor so um so I always have ton ton of respect for comedians you actor, comedy actors because I think it's so much harder. Uh, you know, >> but anyway, I think we're running over time. So, >> yeah, we're we're definitely over.
Thank you everybody for watching. Thank you for those who submitted your questions. Thank you Howard for joining us today and chatting with us about physical media and films and dummies and so much more. And thank you Frank as always for everything you do to keep physical media alive. You can find some of the titles we discussed today along with thousands of others at kenolber.com. That link is in the description below. While you're there, sign up for our newsletter if you haven't already and be sure to follow us on social and check back next month for another episode. So, thank you everybody.
>> [music]
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