'We should masturbate more' - sex educator Olivia Teahan | Just Between Us

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]Today we're talking about your sexual script. All the stuff you learned growing up about sex, bodies, and desire and how it's still running the show. I'm joined by Olivia Teen, sex educator and psychosexual therapist in training who's here to help us unpack it all. This episode is about understanding where the awkwardness comes from and how it actually and how we can actually move past it, I suppose. Hello.

[00:00:29]>> Hello there. It's great to have you.

[00:00:32]>> I'm delighted sure.

[00:00:33]>> Psychosexual therapist in training.

[00:00:35]>> Yeah.

[00:00:35]>> How's that going?

[00:00:36]>> It's great. Sure, I'm finishing up my training now. 3 years later.

[00:00:40]>> 3 years it takes.

[00:00:41]>> Yeah, yeah, in the UK.

[00:00:42]>> Wow.

[00:00:43]>> We don't have that training here, Jen.

[00:00:45]Are you shocked?

[00:00:45]>> No.

[00:00:47]>> [laughter] >> Why did you want to do this course?

[00:00:50]>> So, I had already been working in like sexual health, community health, and I just felt like we have a gap here because none of our health care practitioners get generally get really proper training, you know? And so between like teachers being expected to support kids with learning about this stuff, doctors also not getting proper training, therapists a lot of the time not getting proper training, and so yeah, I just kind of found myself looking at how I could get a bit more stuck in and I landed on therapy and now I do a mix of the two with sex ed and with the therapy.

[00:01:25]>> Amazing.

[00:01:26]>> Yeah.

[00:01:27]>> So, when people will come to you when you're qualified and pass with flying colors, what will the problems they will be unpacking with you?

[00:01:37]>> So, because I'm nearly finished my training, I'm already working with people. Um so, sometimes they'll come to me and they'll say, "Okay, there's erectile function issues." Or they'll say, "I have no interest in sex." Or they'll say, "I'm kind of falling into the same pattern in relationships and I don't know why."

[00:01:54]Um they'll say, "I just don't really know my body very well and I don't really know where else to go to ask somebody about that.

[00:02:02]So, that's kind of where we start and then a lot of the time when people come to me with the physical stuff where they're like, "Okay, it's something to do with pain or something to do with my body not feeling ready or with erectile function." We have to get into the nuts and bolts of, "Okay, what's actually going on in your head and what are the ideas that you have about sex?" Cuz a lot of the time that's what's affecting it.

[00:02:20]>> Well, it's good to hear that men are coming to you because sometimes when we have these conversations, it's generally women's problems we're talking about and they're, you know, they're a little bit better at coming to therapy in this regard with things that are happening in their body and sexual experiences and that kind of thing. So, you're getting a lot of men in.

[00:02:40]>> Yeah.

[00:02:41]>> That's great.

[00:02:42]>> It's lovely. Fair play to them.

[00:02:44]>> And is it sometimes a case where they come to you with a problem you're like, "Well, this is a physical problem."

[00:02:50]>> So >> or do they come to you after they've determined that?

[00:02:53]>> to me after. The lads come to me wanted to be physical and sorted and give me a pill and it's gone. And then they go through that process and then afterwards when that isn't working the way they expect, then they'll come in to me and be like, "What's going on?"

[00:03:04]>> Yeah.

[00:03:05]>> Yeah.

[00:03:06]>> Okay, so let's get into it.

[00:03:08]>> Okay.

[00:03:09]>> Do you think there's embarrassment about learning about sex in Ireland? Do you think we're all still a little bit embarrassed about, you know, what we've learned and how we're learning it?

[00:03:22]>> So, I do education with kids with teens and with adults. So, I think the adults that I'm working with, they're there voluntarily and they're like, "Okay, I've tried just doing this by myself or I've tried learning it from my friends or from porn or whatever it is and it's not working. Like, I'm not having a good time as maybe I could." So, they're more curious and a bit more like, "Okay, maybe there's a bit of embarrassment, a bit of the kind of embarrassment hangover there, the Catholic guilt hangover there, but like they're ready to learn.

[00:03:54]You know, they've decided, "Okay, I'm actually allowed to figure this out."

[00:03:57]Whereas the kids a lot of time, there's a lot of Yeah, there's a lot of embarrassment, there's a lot of if they're teenagers, there's a lot of bravado.

[00:04:05]>> Okay.

[00:04:05]>> Of feeling like, "Okay, I already have to look like I do know this." Or maybe with the girls it's I want to maybe look like I don't I'm not interested in this or it there's very different dynamics play out with teenagers.

[00:04:16]>> Do you do group sessions with teenagers?

[00:04:19]>> Oh, wow. Do you have any questions that absolutely just floor you?

[00:04:23]>> Every day of my life.

[00:04:24]>> Really?

[00:04:24]>> Yeah, like usually I'm in schools after the weekend and I'm doing therapy appointments for a day or two at the end of the week. And so, it's a good mix.

[00:04:31]And sure with the teenagers I suppose like there I'd give them all a chance to do an anonymous question so they get to write it down. The lads are all freaked about their penis, first of all.

[00:04:42]>> Are they?

[00:04:42]>> Yes. If I'm working with a fellow who's 15 or 50, they are stressed out about whether their penis is normal, whether the erectile function is normal, how long if there's penetration happening, how long it's supposed to be happening for.

[00:04:55]They're all Yeah, anyway, the people that I that I meet, there's a lot of self-consciousness around that and I definitely see it with the teenagers a lot.

[00:05:03]Otherwise, there are lads who are getting more proactive if they're um if they're in straight relationships or if they're dating opposite sex that they are interested in being like, "How am I going to actually figure out what feels good for her?"

[00:05:15]It depends on what they're being exposed to, what their friends are talking about, what has been happening at home, you know.

[00:05:21]Um >> Can you tell if a group of lads I'm just saying predominantly lads.

[00:05:26]>> Yeah.

[00:05:27]>> Um are watching porn? Can you tell if they've been watching porn from a certain age?

[00:05:32]>> I'll always go into it assuming that even if they haven't sought it out, they're kind of exposed to it somewhat because they are just in the environment they're in. Like if they have smartphones, they're going to have been exposed to it. Yeah, even if they're not looking for it for masturbation, it's something that is going to pop up in their life, you know? So, I really go into it assuming that first of all, and I go into it explaining very clearly like the difference between porn and sex, and that's what I try to leave them with is sex isn't You don't know what sex looks like because you've been watching porn for 4 years.

[00:06:08]>> And that's why you're freaked about your penis cuz you're watching porn.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah.

[00:06:12]Part of it.

[00:06:13]>> It Yeah, it's so sad, isn't it? And we you know, and we're entering this new age, and we're all a lot more open than where we were in the past. We're I think we're definitely getting there. Cuz when you think about the shame and the embarrassment and from years ago, I mean, even up to the '90s, we have a lot to unpack, don't we?

[00:06:33]>> Totally agree. And like that's something that I see with people, even if they didn't have like a strong religious practice growing up, like you know, people who might be in their 30s, maybe they skipped over some of the like kind of dogma, I suppose, around it. Um but it still affects a lot of people regardless of that. Like it it probably affected the way that your parents spoke to you about, you know, whether they mentioned what masturbation is, how they might have mentioned it, whether they spoke to you about menstruation before it happened to you or before it happened to your sister, you know? So, that stuff kind of >> sticks?

[00:07:08]>> Yeah.

[00:07:09]Yeah, for a lot of people it does. And I think like there'll be different ways that people can kind of move through that if they happen to be in a social setting where it's a very different environment, if they happen to be in other people's houses a good bit who have where where they get exposed to other ideas, you know, and where they see other people living like in their body as if it's like a good thing to understand it, as if it's a good thing to understand your body, and that being this wide notion, and if you get exposed to that when you're younger, it can break through, you know, the kind of more rigid ideas or silences that might be in your own home.

[00:07:44]>> We have a very open home.

[00:07:45]>> Okay, good for you.

[00:07:46]>> Thank you.

[00:07:47]>> Are you a naked house?

[00:07:48]>> We're kind of a nudey house, but my daughter is kind of leading that cuz now she's 11 and I see her becoming less nudey because she's getting conscious of her body, which is fine. I'm letting her lead the way.

[00:08:01]But I've been because I was never told about the birds and bees, I didn't know what was happening, you know, growing up in the '80s and um in my house, which is weird cuz I'm the youngest of six.

[00:08:12]I think my mom was just too busy.

[00:08:14]But my daughter is very open in a way.

[00:08:16]She'll ask questions, which is great. I do find that with the young fellow who's eight that we're kind of we need to we need to do a lot more in a sense.

[00:08:27]So, how do you gauge what he should know, what does he know, all that kind of stuff? I think she's just so open, she'll just ask questions and I just let her lead it. But I would like to instigate the conversation with him. He's an 8-year-old, so how where should I start there?

[00:08:45]>> Well, I mean you could choose stuff that's going to be relevant to your household. So, like you could even be talking about changes for your own body or for like if if there's, you know, menstrual products around the house, like explaining why that happens in a kind of simple form of like this is what happens when uh you know, sometimes when I'm talking to the kids, if they've done like chemicals in science, I'll talk about you have these chemicals in the body, they change what's happening in your body and that won't be happening for you for a little while, but you might see it happening in your friends maybe beforehand. It happens to people at different rates, you know, because I suppose part of it that I'm always conscious of, especially if I'm with kids who are maybe like around 11 or 12, they might be at very different stages in terms of what's happening in their own body and just what they've been exposed to in terms of information, you know, depending on whether they have access to devices as well. That will possibly change it for them. So, yeah, I would start with what's already kind of happening in the household. If you feel If you feel happy to share something that, you know, is relevant to to you guys and and tell him that like he'll go through his own changes and that's something that you can kind of talk about whenever he has questions and follow his lead then, but definitely whenever you think there are any changes happening, that's something that you can definitely get in ahead of and explain to him about masturbation and menstruation before he's told about it by somebody in school, you know.

[00:10:08]>> That's a fear, and then there's also a fear of I have a fear of telling him too much too young.

[00:10:14]>> Mhm.

[00:10:15]>> You know what I mean? So, I'm just trying to find the balance, but that's That's very good starting in the home and what's around the home, what's he's exposed to and all that kind of stuff.

[00:10:23]And obviously his sister is getting is changing as well cuz she's a, you know, preteen and, you know, going through that phase, that awkward phase as well.

[00:10:31]So, I can bring that into it as well.

[00:10:33]So, this is great. I Oh my, you know, >> [laughter] >> family advice here. I don't have to pay for therapy. This is amazing.

[00:10:40]Let's talk about influence. How much influence does porn and peers have on expectations? [snorts] >> Yeah, I'm glad you included peers in that because like I think sometimes when people are getting very scared about porn impact, I still kind of have to come back to the fact that like, "Okay, well, I'm also working with men who didn't have smartphones until they were way past puberty."

[00:11:03]>> Sure.

[00:11:03]>> You know, like I'm working with a pretty broad age range. So, like I still see the impacts of them thinking sex is vaginal penetration and that's all it is. And if I ever have a fantasy that strays outside that or if, God forbid, I have a fantasy that doesn't involve a woman, if there's anything that seems like, you know, a kink or out of the ordinary for me or something that the lads wouldn't be joking about or boasting about in the pub, then what does this say about me?

[00:11:33]You know, and it really really limits people. And so, I think that can be exacerbated by certain types of porn, definitely. Um but those ideas were there ages ago because a lot of people who didn't have any of the same porn access or who were maybe just getting it much slower in magazines, like they were also growing up with the idea that like anything to do with sexual exploration and not being the like heterosexual and family unit focus, that that was something that was, you know, this kind of danger or said something moral about who you are.

[00:12:10]So, that influences how people have sex, you know, and they just might have never gotten to really reflect on what are the ways that I'm kind of like restricting myself, you know, or stopping myself from even being curious about what else my sex my sex life could look like.

[00:12:26]Do you Do you know?

[00:12:27]>> I do know.

[00:12:28]>> [laughter] >> So, what questions should people ask themselves if they're in that rush?

[00:12:34]>> Okay.

[00:12:35]So, I suppose sometimes if somebody is coming to me, they might feel like, yeah, they're in the rush. And then when we get into it, that those are the kind of ideas I'll start with. I'll I'll be asking like, you know, back to do you remember your first experience touching yourself? Do you remember whether that felt like something fun or were you rushing it? Or you know, were you like bracing yourself in case somebody was going to walk in the door?

[00:12:59]And what were the ideas that you had about dating when you were a teenager?

[00:13:03]Did you feel like, you know, it was an option for you? Did you feel really isolated? And then just literally mapping out for them like a little I kind of like to make a little timeline for myself of that person of how their beliefs are in sex formed.

[00:13:17]For some people, they'll have had like their own awakening or evolution with sex that they've come to just from, I don't know, being in a new friend group or being around ideas that are totally different and that sets them on their way. But, for other people, if they haven't gotten a chance to kind of like reflect a little bit on where do my ideas of sex come from, they could be holding on to stuff about like from when they were like really young about what their body is and what they're allowed to experience and they should and shouldn't do.

[00:13:42]>> Yeah.

[00:13:45]Why is penetration still seen as the main event though with a lot of lads? I mean, we we're moving slowly into a new sexual world, I suppose, in this country especially. Um but, why is that still seen as the main event?

[00:14:01]>> Okay. So, if we separate out like a reproductive focus being how people learned about sex, right? And if somebody's asking, "How are babies made?" they might only hear about sex in that context for a little while, and then they might just associate from before they've even gone through puberty, they might think, "Okay, sex is for babies and babies are for sex." But, if we separate that out, if that's not what is going on for somebody, they might just have pressures around what it is to be a man in sex. You know, that could be something that's a really big focus for them.

[00:14:31]>> Yeah.

[00:14:32]>> The jokes that are made about masturbation from when they're younger, so many lads are not told, and so many girls are not told.

[00:14:41]Self-touch happens because you're maybe having that those hormonal changes and you're having that drive there, but also because it's the skin. Like, your genitals and the organs underneath them are sensitive, and for some people it will feel really good to touch them.

[00:14:55]That is not a gender-specific thing. So, I suppose there is the idea then that sex is something your man does, and she is done to. And, you know, that element can be there, and it never has to be spelled out as plainly as that for that idea to be soaked in. And I see that with women as well, you know, and they're like, "I'm really informed. I'm a big feminist. Why why I having this block with saying to my partner like I actually don't feel like doing that right now.

[00:15:25]You know?

[00:15:26]>> Yeah.

[00:15:26]>> And I think it's just it's it's it's like an autopilot.

[00:15:30]And so it does help people sometimes to have a think back to okay, where did I figure out what sex is and why did I think about foreplay as this kind of optional thing.

[00:15:41]And there's a great um there's a great researcher uh Dr. Laurie, I think, and she wrote uh Get Cliterate.

[00:15:50]But her take on it from the research that she did is we wouldn't even have the word foreplay if we had learned about sexual pleasure from a female anatomy lens.

[00:16:02]Because we would just be thinking of all the other kind of touch on the body as this is sex. Also, if we were learning about sex from a like not a heterosexual perspective.

[00:16:13]>> Sure.

[00:16:13]>> We wouldn't be having this intense focus on penis and vaginal penetration and thinking, "Yeah, that's it. You're done now. Job done."

[00:16:20]It's it's just one part like of a of the picture and people people are definitely generally, I think, um their sexual experiences are kind of reduced by by seeing it as the only part.

[00:16:31]>> How important is masturbation?

[00:16:34]>> Guys, come on. Like let's let's start treating our self-touch, our self-pleasure, or our masturbation practice as it's like you connecting with your body. It's you connecting with your body.

[00:16:46]>> I just jump in? Is that Irish people's biggest [clears throat] problem or >> We don't touch ourselves. We don't touch ourselves enough.

[00:16:54]>> Enough.

[00:16:55]>> Okay, what was the first thing that you touched this morning?

[00:16:58]>> Um my phone.

[00:17:00]>> Yeah. [laughter] You and how many other people?

[00:17:02]>> Probably.

[00:17:03]>> Okay. So, if like we can start small.

[00:17:05]This does not have to be that you are like at yourself >> on the bus.

[00:17:11]>> At yourself.

[00:17:12]>> [laughter] >> And you know the word masturbation means like to defile yourself.

[00:17:16]>> Oh.

[00:17:17]>> The root of that word. And so, like I sometimes believe >> You say self-touch quite a bit, actually.

[00:17:22]>> bit because I also prefer, especially with women, because for a lot of women, like with female anatomy with the vulva, like you kind of a lot of the time you can really benefit from slowing down a lot and giving yourself a lot more time for self-touch as well as for with somebody else. So, that's kind of why I call it self-touch as well, cuz I'm >> So, it doesn't have to be just the genital focus.

[00:17:40]>> Yeah, okay.

[00:17:41]>> the whole shebang, you know, the whole the whole bod. Focus on the parts that are not very triggering, that you don't have insecurities about necessarily.

[00:17:48]Start there. You can start with lotion after the shower, you know, and you're just going slow, slow, slow. So, I do think it's really, really beneficial for people because you're then taking, if we're talking about with women especially, if you're someone who feels like, uh, like I'm kind of just taking a box and I would sex, or you're with someone for a while and you haven't really kind of reflected on whether what you're doing still suits you. Like if you're just a bit like, oh, Jesus. You kind of need some >> little practice where >> your brain is getting that reminder that like, oh, yeah, my body and my pleasure are like for me, too, and they're actually my responsibility.

[00:18:23]>> Yeah.

[00:18:23]>> You know, I'm not just waiting for someone to bring me the fireworks. Like I can create this for myself. I think that's powerful stuff.

[00:18:32]>> and so important that we all take that on board.

[00:18:34]>> It's good for your health.

[00:18:36]>> Our mental health, our emotional health, all of that. But I much prefer self-touch.

[00:18:43]>> Okay, let's go with that.

[00:18:44]>> You're right, there's a lot of triggering spots for women. A lot of women, you know, don't like their stomach or they don't like their legs.

[00:18:50]So, you know, can you teach that? Like is that something we can teach ourselves to do by starting off slow and and doing it in small doses?

[00:19:00]>> With uh, the body insecurities. Oh, yeah, with self-touch. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and that's something, like there's there's a way of doing it in therapy practices as well, where, you know, I give someone their homework, we come back, we talk about, okay, what were the bits that physically felt fun, like or that felt nice or new or just surprised you.

[00:19:17]There's no pressure around you having to be like, I had the greatest orgasm of my life or I had any orgasm. You don't need to start with that. We're taking away all of the goals and we're just saying, you go in now and you just look for something that just feels nice and that's where we start. And you let us know about, like in the therapy room I'll be asking the person, okay, which were the parts that you just thought, oh god, I don't want to go near there. And that's fine. We go slowly. We're not looking for you to have to be obsessed with the like and really, really love the body part that you felt insecure about for 15 years, but maybe we can get a bit closer to being like, oh, this is also just a body part. Maybe I can get a bit closer to accepting that it's there and what its function is and that when those really kind of more critical thoughts come up, I might be able to question them a little bit. I don't have to suddenly want to wear my crop top, but I can just question where the thought came from.

[00:20:07]>> And if somebody comes to you and says, I'm just I'm done with sex. I'm I don't feel sexual.

[00:20:13]>> Uh-huh.

[00:20:14]>> I don't want to do it. I've no desire anymore.

[00:20:18]>> Mhm.

[00:20:20]>> I mean, would you leave them be and let them have a sexless life and they can they be quite happy and fulfilled or is it something that everybody should be working on and everybody needs to be doing?

[00:20:34]>> Okay. So, we'll split that up into a couple of bits. First of all, if somebody's coming to me and they're saying, I've never had any sexual interest or arousal. I've never wanted any part of it and I haven't had any like enjoyment and no interest at all ever.

[00:20:49]>> Okay.

[00:20:49]>> And I've had no like traumatic experiences where that has been what diverted me from it. We'll explore the possibility of being asexual. Small percentage of the population, but we'll have a look at that.

[00:21:00]>> Okay.

[00:21:00]>> Other than that though, if somebody's telling me that they have had an interest in sex in the past, if they have enjoyed masturbation in the past, if they have felt physically like there's some kind of an interest there, I'd be wanting to explore like what has happened along the way because it could be like physical hormonal stuff that's going to change things for everybody.

[00:21:19]And we should also be expecting change to happen.

[00:21:22]Like I think when we're thinking about what do we learn when we're small, a lot of it is like that's something that people do when they're older.

[00:21:30]And then that's it then. And so maybe sometimes you might have an idea that okay, I'll just magically know what to do as soon as I have an interest in sex and then that should just be the way it goes then forever. But like if you're going with that idea, you're going to first of all have all this pressure on yourself to just know what to do. You're probably not going to be encouraged to explore your own body with self-touch.

[00:21:53]And then like you're never going to want the the touch that doesn't feel good. Like if you've been going along with touch that just doesn't feel great, of course your body is is naturally not going to get excited about >> Who should be telling people to like is it parents? Is it schools? Is it >> That's the million dollar question really.

[00:22:11]>> Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> In my ideal world, everyone would get to learn about this stuff with a safe adult at home so they can get it consistently.

[00:22:17]>> Okay.

[00:22:18]>> Because otherwise you're depending on all of the tricky stuff around budgets and training and resources. And so you know, I would I would love if people got to actually just hear it from a safe adult and where could happen consistently. But that's just not realistic. Unfortunately, that's not um the capacity that people have at home when they're parenting. That's not the you know, a lot of people when we're wondering about okay, are we over the embarrassment?

[00:22:42]Maybe we kind of know when it's talked about more that like oh yeah, we're allowed to understand and enjoy our bodies. But it does take a bit of skill.

[00:22:50]It takes your own like are you having your own self-touch practice? Or if you're not, do you feel comfortable with why you're not?

[00:22:58]Do you ever mention to your partner or your friends or whoever you know, you might be on to about what's going on in your body. And like, if you don't do those things, it's going to be hard to talk to your kid. There's definitely a way to get more confident doing it, but you have to have a bit of like emotional awareness around, "Okay, what's going to happen to my face when I say the thing or when they ask the thing that I I've never discussed with anyone before." You know, when they're asking me about I don't know, something they've seen in porn or when they're asking me about why this happens with the ejaculate. If If you've like never said those words to your friend before, even having a laugh, of course it's going to be hard.

[00:23:32]>> So, we're screwed, basically.

[00:23:33]>> No, we're not. We're not going to be in the dark.

[00:23:35]>> [laughter] >> We're not screwed. There's There's sex educators popping up everywhere.

[00:23:40]>> said sex ed You need to start a YouTube channel. Okay. You know, that's what you need to do. And you save us all from these embarrassing conversations. But there is always time, and I think it is important to talk about this.

[00:23:51]Um you know, and not just if you have kids, but there's always room to upskill, isn't there?

[00:23:57]>> Yes, absolutely.

[00:23:58]>> And get better.

[00:23:59]>> Yeah, and like if this is a an area like in terms of parenting where you feel like, "Oh, I don't even know where to start with this." You're going to learn something from it. Like, I promise you you're going to learn something from even just looking for resources for the young person in your house. Like, they if you can treat it as like, "We're always supposed to be learning about our body." I I know this probably sounds a bit easy, but like I literally talk about sex ed as, "This is our lifelong learning."

[00:24:26]You know, and I really I want to always be learning about how our bodies change, and you know, so that we get to actually enjoy sexual aspects of our relationships. If that's something that's of interest to you, or if it's your own self-taught, your connection with your body, that you get to enjoy that for as long as possible, like, you know?

[00:24:44]>> Are we all performing a version of sex we think we should be having? The majority of us.

[00:24:50]>> I hate to It's It's sad, but I think >> That's so sad.

[00:24:53]>> It's It is. And it's it's interesting that like once you start unpacking like what your ideas about sex were when you were younger, you might it might kind of unravel. You know, like the same way you might be using the same like makeup technique from when you were like 20 when you're 30. I definitely do. But like you also might be like using the same thing for I don't know, like doing oral sex or using hands or how you how you initiate sex or how you kiss someone from when you were like you know, 15 or 16 and your friend you were asking your friends like, "Oh, how do we do this?"

[00:25:29]You might have just gotten into a habit and like that does become performative very easily because you're not in the moment if you're just going on the autopilot of this is what I this is how I know how to do it and so that's it.

[00:25:42]And so this is where I'm like, "Okay, lifelong learning, guys." Where with our lifelong learning, we're going to just check in with ourselves of does this feel good? Does it feel good for me?

[00:25:52]Does it feel good for my partner? Is there pleasure here? And let that be our focus rather than did they orgasm and do I need to orgasm now and how long have we been doing this for and all of the noise >> Yeah.

[00:26:03]>> that happens in our head. Does it feel good?

[00:26:06]>> But that's why those conversations that you're having in schools and with teenagers and parents should be having with their kids, they're actually so important. They're more important than ever because it will determine their sexual experiences when they're older as well.

[00:26:22]>> Yeah, yeah. You're setting them up like >> Yeah.

[00:26:25]>> be have the confidence that like I'm allowed to understand my body.

[00:26:31]I can understand a partner's body and like that those are good things. Like that it is a good thing for me to be learning about that. That I'm not expected to magically know what to do with self-touch or with partner touch.

[00:26:44]You're being encouraged by your safe adult at home that like this is your body. You get to decide what happens to it. That's something that's important apart from all of the safety stuff that comes with that of someone feeling like, "Oh, yeah, this is my body. You know, I get to make the decisions about it."

[00:27:00]It sets them up for much more like fun sexual experiences with their when they're getting used to the awkwardness of it and the messiness of it because they're not expecting it to look like the performers that they've seen who are have had loads of surgical modifications and are pretending to be attracted to each other, you know, they're performing attraction.

[00:27:20]>> Yeah.

[00:27:20]>> So.

[00:27:21]>> I think the pleasure part is the you know, that's that's the most difficult >> Yeah.

[00:27:25]>> part.

[00:27:26]>> To talk about?

[00:27:26]>> To even say.

[00:27:28]>> Okay. Even as an like even me saying it, it's like >> Okay.

[00:27:31]>> It can be a quite a um I don't know. I think it just the the years of shame and the years of what from years before.

[00:27:41]>> Okay.

[00:27:41]>> Um it's easier to talk about the physicality of it and reproduction and all of that. But sitting down, having a conversation with a partner or whatever and talking about, you know, what turns you on and all that kind of stuff is is trickier.

[00:27:57]>> It yeah, it definitely is harder for people to do. I see that. Like I was working in the kind of more public health settings for a while and I saw that a lot.

[00:28:06]We're all skirting around why people want to have sex. Like yes, a big part of it for people might be feeling connected to someone, but the point generally is that we're having a good time, you know, and so whatever words you need to use if if pleasure feels like too um too intense for somebody to say and if you're trying to talk about it with a partner or whatever, just yeah, go back to okay, what would actually make me feel good? What what are the Can you say that to a to a partner or whether you're educating a young person or whatever it is? Um find the words you can go with. Sorry.

[00:28:38]>> Find the words. That's good good advice.

[00:28:40]But what are the tips to communicate with a partner or if you're talking about pleasure to a young person in your house, what is there techniques you can use to help you get through that conversation?

[00:28:53]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:54]Um, so I suppose your first thing needs to be stop expecting yourself to be a professional like uh talking about it.

[00:29:04]You need to be able to be open and be able to kind of be aware of your own emotions while you're talking about it.

[00:29:10]>> Sure.

[00:29:11]>> With a partner, for example, but like if you're expecting yourself to magically know all of these things, like please please ask yourself why you're expecting that. And for a lot of people I think it's well, me and my friends never said when we weren't actually really enjoying sex with our partner or we never said when, you know, I was having like pain or when I had an STI.

[00:29:33]If, you know, maybe you just haven't gotten used to the idea that oh yeah, I'm I'm supposed to be learning about this stuff and nobody taught me. And get angry about that. If there's emotions that come up for you when you realize, oh actually we were never taught about the clitoris even though it's like the main pleasure point for women. Like we were never taught to learn about this stuff in a way that focused on us feeling good. So give yourself a bit of grace first of all with all of the that embarrassment that might be coming up and just be okay with that for yourself. Like get to that point first I suppose because if you're talking to a partner or if you're talking to a young person, like your feelings are going to be part of that conversation, you know. So for sorry, for example, with a young person, not that you have to bring your feelings there, but they're going to be happening for you. Like I said, when that when your young person like suggests something or asks something that you're not really comfortable talking about. So you're going to have to find your tools I suppose for chilling you out in that moment. For some people it will be focusing on their breath. That's something that's relatively subtle you can do.

[00:30:32]Uh other These are also things that we use in sex. Like going back to your breath is something that can really steady you and can also make stuff feel a lot better.

[00:30:39]>> Okay.

[00:30:40]>> Get you out of your head. But that's also when you're having conversations about sex, you're trying to get out of that like noise in your head and just focus on okay, we're just we're literally just talking about learning about our bodies.

[00:30:51]>> And speaking about that noise in your head, can mindset affect physical responses like erectile dysfunction, pain, low desire, that kind of thing?

[00:31:00]>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, the kind of basics of what's happening in the body with arousal, right?

[00:31:08]We have >> Blood rushing down to the genitals.

[00:31:12]>> So, there's blood flow going and then generally if you think about the that fight or flight response that humans are going to go into. So, we have the fight and the flight and the freeze and the fawn. So, if people want to look those up, we can.

[00:31:24]Um but each person will probably go into one more than the other. And when you go into that mode, basically whether it's because you are suddenly feeling very insecure about the erection or you're feeling insecure about how your breasts look or you're wondering are we actually really on the same page or how do I ask them if they want to Whatever it is. If you do start getting quite stressed and the noise is going in the brain and if you go into that fight or flight mode, your brain thinks that you're about to be eaten by tiger.

[00:31:50]>> Lovely.

[00:31:51]>> Because it thinks that you are back in the caves millions of years ago. Our brain hasn't caught on to the fact that we don't have a predator coming to eat us. So, you're in the sexual situation, the arousal process maybe has started, blood is rushing down to the genitals, but when you start getting really stressed out, your brain is going to say now's not the time for sex. Tiger coming to kill me.

[00:32:10]Send all that blood away into the muscles that help me run away.

[00:32:14]>> Okay.

[00:32:14]>> Into the arms and the legs. So, the penis or the clitoris, all that arousal is going to go.

[00:32:19]>> Not going to work.

[00:32:20]>> Yeah, the blood is going to go away.

[00:32:21]>> So, you're saying like 90% of sex is in our heads?

[00:32:24]>> [laughter] >> Well, >> like being mentally like being present, being in the moment. I think that's the biggest fight we all have, you know, is staying in that moment and you know, not thinking about other things or the shopping list or whatever.

[00:32:38]>> Exactly. The shopping list or where do I have to drive the kids later now or does he is he expecting now for me to do this next or is that's what we usually do.

[00:32:48]When you start going into those checklists, that's what I think of them as. The checklists are you kind of coming out of your body and you're back in your head and it's okay for those to come in but we have to let them float out again. So I I'm never saying to somebody when they're talking about that cuz it's really common.

[00:33:05]Um it can also be like you just being like, "Oh god, what does this part of my body look like?" That's common for men as well.

[00:33:10]>> Is that a big part of it, the body image stuff?

[00:33:12]>> Yeah, and that goes for lads as well.

[00:33:14]>> Really?

[00:33:15]>> Yeah, it does like because if if if you're in that kind of mode where that's where your head goes to immediately, like I I'm never kind of trying to pressure someone to be like, "Okay, we have to suddenly like get over the the shopping list or uh stop thinking about your body." But it's kind of like a mindfulness approach I suppose where you notice the thought.

[00:33:38]Maybe you take a pause with your partner. Maybe you say to your partner like, "Hang on a sec." You let the thought drift away again. You're not forcing your body to just push through that moment either. You know, you're not forcing yourself to just be like, "No, I have I have to get in this zone now."

[00:33:53]And that's really helpful thinking about like erections as well. We can let it go, lads. It'll come back again once we chill out. We can let it go. We can look at the the flaccid penis.

[00:34:02]>> So give yourself time.

[00:34:04]>> Yeah.

[00:34:05]>> To have these little breaks.

[00:34:07]Oh my god, I've heard slow down so many times on >> [laughter] >> this podcast.

[00:34:10]>> Slow down.

[00:34:12]>> On this series, I swear to god that's all you guys. You're all just saying, "Slow down, for god's sake."

[00:34:19]>> Everyone just taking >> Take time because it I think that's a big problem. We're all just rushing.

[00:34:24]We're all so busy in our lives and that's what's happening in the bedroom as well. We're just rushing to get things done. Sex included. And >> say to yourself, "I don't have time to touch myself. If you're waking up in the morning and you're taking the phone out, I promise you, touch your neck. Touch your own skin before you touch that phone, please.

[00:34:41]>> So, that's where we start.

[00:34:43]>> Start small, guys. We don't need to change our entire lives. We don't need to become like yogis and be really zen all the time to have that relaxation.

[00:34:52]Small little things to bring in our pleasure.

[00:34:55]>> Have you ever had anything come into the therapy room that's really taken you back or shocked you?

[00:35:03]>> No.

[00:35:04]>> Is it a lot of the same stuff?

[00:35:06]>> It's a lot of somebody might come in and be like, I've never said this to anyone before.

[00:35:11]Right? But, it's a lot of people just carrying shame in something because they other people have judged them or they're assuming that other people would judge them.

[00:35:22]And so, I guess that's kind of the theme that comes in a lot of someone being like, this is my big bad secret and it's why I'm not having sex I want or it's why my partner's unsatisfied. But, there's probably something much more kind of tangible going on a lot of the time.

[00:35:40]Much more, you know, manageable that we can actually start working on when the person might think like, I'm going to like send them out the door or something, you know, but that's not what happens.

[00:35:48]>> Communication is so important. We talk about this quite a lot. I suppose if anybody's coming to you or going to a therapist, that's a really good first step.

[00:35:57]>> Mhm.

[00:35:57]>> But, why do we find it so difficult to speak to the people that we love about these things and have you any tips on how to do that?

[00:36:06]>> So, as I mentioned earlier, I think that first part of not expecting yourself to feel totally relaxed. We we don't have to feel like really chill and confident about what's going on with our body or what's going on with our relationship to be able to have the conversation. Like, I really emphasize this also with young people cuz they're "It's too awkward. I can't say anything. It's too awkward. I can't say it to somebody if I like them." Or I can't when we're talking about consent, they're like, "It's too awkward."

[00:36:34]Awkwardness has to be part of your fantastic sex life, your ideal sex life.

[00:36:42]Those awkward moments, they're when you are pushing yourself.

[00:36:45]>> Yeah.

[00:36:46]>> They're when you are pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone and being like, "I'm mortified now, because we've been doing this thing for this long and I haven't said it to them, but it feels weird or it's starting to not feel, you know?" And so, that I would say welcome that awkwardness. If those nerves are coming up, that's not a bad sign. That's certainly not It's not an excuse for us to not have the conversation, either, you know?

[00:37:06]So, that's kind of where I would start, because I think if people are expecting themselves to be really confident and experts, confident experts for just because they happen to be in a relationship, >> Mhm.

[00:37:16]>> you're putting way too much pressure on yourself. Whatever you can do to take that pressure off is going to help. And as I mentioned earlier, for some people it might be when they're in the conversation, maybe you have to focus on your breath for a bit. Maybe you have to say to your partner, "Can we actually just take two secs? I'm having I'm having a bit of a moment. I'm feeling a bit awkward even saying this."

[00:37:32]Tell the person in front of you that you feel awkward.

[00:37:34]A lot of the time >> Welcome the awkwardness.

[00:37:36]>> Yes, please.

[00:37:37]>> That's such good advice, because we try and shy away from it and try and master it, when really we should just be like, "This is really awkward, but we have to have this conversation."

[00:37:46]>> Yeah, and sure bless us, we're expecting ourselves to just waltz into a conversation or sexual dynamic that we've just not been given the support with before. Or why would you expect yourself to have any other skill that you've never been taught?

[00:38:00]>> Very true. So, last question. Can people genuinely change their experience of sex?

[00:38:05]>> Yes.

[00:38:06]>> My god.

[00:38:07]>> [laughter] >> Yes. So, like the way that I work in terms of the therapy side of things, it's what we call the bio-psycho-social.

[00:38:14]So, it's biological, what's in your body, psychological, what's in your head, and social, what are the cultural ideas that have been going on for you.

[00:38:20]So, the path to changing your experience of sex is going to be quite different depending on which parts of those are affecting you, you know?

[00:38:28]Like maybe for a lot of women they might have gotten loads of information about how people will view them like how society might view them in terms of sex but maybe they just haven't gotten any insights on like okay what's actually going on with my vulva and what's the sensitive parts for me and what do I actually enjoy, you know?

[00:38:48]Whereas for lads maybe they've gotten all this information on oh yeah this is exactly what the penis looks like and I know exactly how everything functions but maybe they haven't really gotten a chance to take in like oh maybe I'm putting a lot of pressure on what sex looks like and maybe that's actually holding me back, you know? Then that's a generalization but >> But we can all change our experience.

[00:39:08]>> We can have a good time. Praise the Lord. Olivia thank you so much for being with us today.