Spirituality for Thinkers with H.D. Goswami

追加: 2026-05-11

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[00:52:11]cuz you beat me in the head when you came in. I guess everybody.

[00:52:26]So, I have a monitoring system. I'm actually on pro probation.

[00:52:37]>> Well, I'm just kidding. That's >> a monitoring system.

[00:52:43]Oh, >> so thank you all for coming and uh special thanks to Panchagod Pu. I thought I'd say a few words about him and uh nothing nice of course >> actually his wife Gorpurima and his son >> Krishna Ram right right Panchagod was um actually from the there there are devotees in in the Hari Krishna movement who from the beginning were outstanding sort of distinguished themselves and then >> should I leave now or listen >> I'm going to get back to you now and uh so Panchagod I uh I really got to know him in uh 1982 when I uh 8182 when I took over as GBC of Florida and he actually stayed for a while there which is uh to his credit. So punch was and in those days of course um we were really focused on distributing praapad's books that was a big thing and punch was one of the best in the country at that he's also a leader of sankan and uh actually he's always uh been I would say exceptional and now he's uh for how many years now you've been one one of the presidents in this bind is that all yeah 17 years which shows an extraordinary power of endurance and so for over 17 years he's been a leader president in Bindavvern in India and uh done many other things in New York and other places his wife Gorima there say the wife and one of his ch one of his kids is here Krishna Ram hey Krishna Ram bless so everyone can see who you are just And also Jacita played the cello.

[00:54:57]Jaita, I'm always I always say that she was on the Puerto Rico water polo team, which is uh it's about time we got a serious water polo player in the Hari Christian movement. And um and obviously she's an accomplished musician.

[00:55:19]and I think uh went was in the music department at Temple University with Jimon Jveny.

[00:55:26]Is that right?

[00:55:29]Another distinguished musical talent here. And so, um anyway, I'd like to thank everybody for coming. Uh this is a Krishna West program. Lock the doors before I say that.

[00:55:44]This is a Krishna West program. And so we really appreciate you coming and helping us to try to uh do everything we can to revitalize Praapad's western mission.

[00:55:54]And so one little warning, I'm going to give an old-fashioned Hari Krishna talk.

[00:56:00]And I uh I especially wanted to speak on the subject of um terms that are not that common in uh sort of the mainstream culture, although they should be. And that is personalism and impersonalism.

[00:56:18]And so I'll explain what that means.

[00:56:19]Praapad when praad came uh to teach Krishna consciousness and established his movement uh those terms personalism and impersonalism were absolutely at the center of his philosophical presentation.

[00:56:37]And if you study the history of world religions including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and so on, this has been probably the main um how should I put it dividing line or the the main point of discussion or debate for thousands of years in world religions, personalism versus impersonalism. So um and of course it it probably was dealt with in the most theologically sophisticated way in India with the great Vantis um Shankara and who was of course on the wrong side of history and Rammanuja and uh Madwajari and ultimately uh Lord Chaitananya Praad kind of resolved it.

[00:57:22]So I want to talk about personalism and impersonalism what it means. Um at the present time we experience ourselves as conscious persons and in simple philosophical terms it means that each of us is the irreducible center of a personal life. And by personal of course it means that um you may share for example a an apartment with someone, you may share a family with someone but one thing which ultimately is uniquely yours is your own personhood. the fact that you are an individual person and although other people can understand you ultimately as it's said in philosophy you have a privileged exclusive understanding of your own life and your own feelings and so you are the center of a of a personal life and in fact if we look at how people throughout history have evaluated other persons uh what we see is despite all kinds of impersonal philosophies, and I'll get into what that really means, um we generally tend to value people more and appreciate them more the more personal they are. If you go somewhere, it can be a restaurant, it can be a family reunion, it can be a classroom, it can be anywhere, a walk in the park. And the more people treat you personally, the more you consider them to be evolved as persons. And if people treat you impersonally, if they treat you as a thing rather than a person, you consider that person to be somehow morally deficient.

[00:59:12]In fact, I remember that um at UC Berkeley when I went there at the age of tender age of 17 um that in those days they were just starting to not exactly at that time it I mean I started college in ' 66 but uh computers were really starting to uh really take over university administration just like now it's all digital stuff and so there was a reaction by the students because in those days at the University of California uh when you register you get a computer card remember it had punched holes from mater but you get one of those you know cards with all kinds of punched holes and everything that they put into the computer and they would say in the cars do not fold bend or mutilate or no do not fold bend or spindle or mutilate something like that the card because then it wouldn't go through the computer so I remember There there was a popular saying among the students at Berkeley, do not fold, bend, spindle or mutilate me. In other words, I'm not a computer card. Even though for the university administration, I am basically that card.

[01:00:24]And so um the more one is so what does it mean to evolve? What does it mean uh to advance as a person? For one thing, it involves powers of empathy that you uh not only by custom or you know what you've been taught or good manners that you treat someone as a person but you really understand there's real empathy there's real sympathy actually the word sympathy is interesting because sim s ym of course comes from Sanskrit s like sankan it means together and pathy there's an old form of uh it means mean sort of like what you feel especially if if you're suffering in some way like the passion of Christ means the suffering of Christ and so um sympathy means that you actually feel what another person is feeling interestingly we have the same word in Sanskrit actually in a few different words so for example one common word for sympathy or compassion in Sanskrit is ana tuk compass shamano like that famous Bhagwatam verse when you see very clearly that all of your troubles are actually uh Krishna's mercy on you and understanding that's Krishna's compassion so anu it it can mean to follow but it also has a sense of following the sense of like the English prefix co like a co-conspirator or a co-worker it means that you're doing something with someone else and so ana ka literally in Sanskrit means to tremble or to shake. For example, common statement in the bwatan would be that some demon was walking the earth and making the earth tremble. You know, some monster, some demon is making the earth tremble. So that's anu ka.

[01:02:24]So I I'm yes, I'm sorry. Compete. So anu ka means that when you are, how should I put it? suffering in the sense of like trembling with unhappiness or or as we say in English actually that we have an English word that gets at it when you're shaken like that really shook me up that's exactly what the Sanskrit is like and so when you're shaken when something is shaking you up someone who shares in that feeling is right there with you and uh so that sharing someone's misfortune when when they're shaken up by something you also are feeling what they're feeling That's Anu Ka and that's a Sanskrit word for mercy. A very common word for mercy.

[01:03:07]Another common Sanskrit word for mercy is anraha which is uh it's in the damodor prayers. It's a very common word. So graa in Sanskrit we also have in English by the way you'll be I mean English is full of Sanskrit if you know where to look. So graha is our English word grasp or grab or take. In fact, there's a form of graa which is grub.

[01:03:30]Not the basic food but pronounced like that. Grub with same thing grab. We So the word grab is actually almost pure Sanskrit. So graa and anu means again along. So when you take someone along with you because to be merciful I mean to say that you have mercy on someone implies that you're not suffering exactly in the same way they are and therefore you can afford to be merciful. If someone is let's say povertystricken and can't afford the basic necessities but you are also povertystricken and so in order for you to be merc merciful to the povertystricken person you can't be also just as poor as they are. So the idea of taking someone along means that you have the luxury of being merciful because your situation is good.

[01:04:25]And so that's a word for mercy that you literally take someone along with you and bring them to a better situation.

[01:04:33]So the reason I mention all these things is because we value these things. We consider them signs of good character.

[01:04:39]And when we and when you see people who can actually be public leaders who seem to really be devoid of these common human sentiments, we consider them to be degraded or or just unworthy.

[01:04:53]And so but that means we are privileging personal traits.

[01:04:58]Now we should know what's it you know before someone says something ultimately irrational such as the highest truth is impersonal. You should know what you're really giving away.

[01:05:10]You have to read what do they say before you sign the contract. You'd better read the fine print. So you need to know the fine print of saying that God is impersonal.

[01:05:21]What it means is that your personal life, your ability to love, to be loved, to be kind, to be creative, to appreciate beauty, to create beauty. All of that is just a stupid illusion.

[01:05:39]So, let's not mince words here. Let's let's get right to the point because that's why often people that say God is impersonal say it can't be described with words. That's not because language is deficient. It's because they have nothing rational to say about it.

[01:05:53]And so if you if you espouse something which ultimately makes no sense and contradicts everything we know to be true at the deepest intuitive level, then your last resort is I can't describe it in words. Because actually things that make sense can be described in words.

[01:06:14]I remember when I was uh preparing to teach uh history of Indian religion at the University of Florida and I was preparing the course and uh I read one book on the history of Indian philosophy and the author who was not a believer in any Indian philosophy it was just an academic book mentioned sort of uh with with a laugh that the people in Indian intellectual history who say it can't be described with words seem to use the most words. They seem to write more books than anybody else.

[01:06:50]So, so what's at stake? Because if the the very first statement in vdanta is jma that the absolute is that from which everything emanates and uh it's actually janma which means birth sanskrit is just everywhere in English like from jun which means to take birth or jana and we get words like generate generate and uh all the all those words uh come from the Sanskrit Jan. So um Janma Ai Janmadi in Sanskrit the word ai can means original like Govinda Madi Purusham that Govinda Krishna is the original person or the first the first person but also it's the Sanskrit word for etc. Because when you say janmai janmadi it means that a well-known set of things a well-known group of things whose first item is jma.

[01:07:58]So what is the well-known set of things whose first item is jma? Well of course it's birth maintenance and destruction.

[01:08:08]So when you say janmadi the again the well-known because everyone knows it.

[01:08:12]It's understood in philosophical Sanskrit that when you put the word ai etc everyone knows it's like saying birth etc. So everyone knows birth maintenance and destruction. So, Janmadasia another interesting Sanskrit word. Sanskrit is really uh ingenious especially philosophical Sanskrit.

[01:08:31]There's also poetic sanskrit which I found a little boring but anyway so means of this. It's the genative from this. I mean think of the first statement in the isopanad which is which means that is pa.

[01:08:53]This is pura or full complete and it's translated uh basically the spiritual world is complete and this world's complete porna. Uh so in Sanskrit if you just say this in philosophical jargon in Sanskrit like in Spanish there's this that and the farther thing like esto iso and eo also in Portuguese and so on. So if you just say this the the the demonstrative pronoun this means something that's right in front of you.

[01:09:32]If you say this book and people looking around and you say, "No, I meant the one two miles away." Then why did you say this book? You should have said that book over there. So this So ultimately, if you say this in the most universal sense, what is right in front of you?

[01:09:49]The material world.

[01:09:52]The material world's right in front of you.

[01:09:55]Therefore, in philosophical Sanskrit, this by itself means the material world.

[01:10:02]And therefore puradak and that what's the farther thing the spiritual world it's just like the word pararda Sanskrit is uh it's ingenious I mean it's obvious that people who did all this stuff were incredibly brilliant like for example take the word para in Sanskrit which can mean the supreme like or para or parama same thing like parama parusha the supreme person or uh parame the supreme lord or peshwara. So uh para in a literal sense means beyond.

[01:10:43]It means beyond. So um which means the other. So it's also used as an antonyym as the opposite of atma.

[01:10:53]Atma in Sanskrit means the self. But it also I mean I'm not joking. Well, I am joking, but it's actually true that if you had, let's say, a a self-service car wash and you wanted to put a Sanskrit sign up, it would be atma self-service because atma is also the reflexive pronoun. It's used exact like in English like he did it himself. It was self-created self-service.

[01:11:22]Self in English can mean um it can be a philosophical term the self.

[01:11:29]It can be this very heavy philosophical term the self. It can also just mean the reflexive pronoun like self-service or they did it themsel and same thing in Sanskrit. So atma means self and the opposite is para the other. So because parta means the other and because this means the world that's before our eyes the material world so para also means that which is beyond and so para loca can mean the world beyond.

[01:12:03]Anyway, um so getting to this point of impersonalism, um if you deny yourself, if you deny yourself, Praad gave the example, if you have an infection in your hand and it really hurts, one solution, although it's ghastly, is to cut your hand off. So, if you go to the doctor and the doctor says, "Not a big deal. Just put this anti antibiotic uh cream on your hand." No, I think I'd rather just cut it off because that way there's no danger of getting another infection.

[01:12:40]I mean, that person probably would be uh placed in some kind of psychiatric ward.

[01:12:46]I mean, it's insane. So if you think about your personal life, the fact that you get to be a unique individual, those are godlike powers, free will. I mean, just think of free will. That is a godlike power. There's no physical thing that has free will.

[01:13:05]Stones and and and plastic, they don't have consciousness. They don't have the fact that you can choose. You can choose to love. You can choose not to love. You can choose to do this or do that. Free will is your most godlike quality, which 99 thousands of 9% of the universe doesn't possess that.

[01:13:33]So, um, do you really want to give that up?

[01:13:37]It's funny because if you say to people, hey, how would you like to be locked up in in solitary confinement? How would you like to be locked up in jail?

[01:13:46]It does because why? What's the problem with being locked up in jail? The problem is that you can't move. You can't express yourself. You can't do what you want. Your free will is extremely curtailed.

[01:14:02]So why would you want to destroy your power, your godly power of freedom by espousing some foolish thing that no, I'm just going to merge into a corporate radiance.

[01:14:16]I mean in ordinary psychology it's called uh what do they call that? Uh codependence.

[01:14:23]Some kind of cosmic code. Do you really want to give up this power of freedom?

[01:14:30]this power of individual consciousness that you are a unique soul, that you can love other souls, that they can love you, that you can create beauty, that you can do amazing. You want to give all that up for what?

[01:14:42]And really spend eternity just radiating.

[01:14:47]It's insane. So, not only is it an extremely it's an extremely unattractive uh travel destination, but if you but anyone that accepts that cannot explain the world.

[01:15:03]You can't the reason Shankara said that the world doesn't really exist as we see it is because he could not explain it with that impersonalism because the very first verse of Adanta and of the Bhagatam which Shankara accepts and all the impersonalists accept is Janadasa the source of everything.

[01:15:28]what everything because if there's only an impersonal consciousness, how could there be creation?

[01:15:37]Because everyone agrees personal or impersonal that God is not some physical thing like a bicycle tire.

[01:15:45]And so if God or the absolute truth Brahman is person is impersonal, there could never be material creation because how could the absolute create without wanting to? Did it was it just sort of like some uncontrolled I don't know divine burp or something? It's like when you burp I didn't want to burp, you know, it just So how can you explain that there even is a a material universe?

[01:16:16]And if you say, "Well, it's just an illusion." Well, since you're God, not part of God, you are God, why are you an illusion? Who needs a stupid God?

[01:16:27]Because if there's nothing but Brahman, wouldn't it be kind of stupid to think that no, there's a whole universe. In fact, the universe is much more interesting to me than Brahman. That's why practically every guru in the in the 60s they came to America and had a big following and taught that there's nothing but Brahman. They all ended up in bed with a female Brahman.

[01:16:54]You know that brahmacher and and the one who didn't was praut.

[01:17:00]So so so how do you explain that there even is a physical universe? Because an impersonal Brahman would not create.

[01:17:12]Creation is something you do intentionally.

[01:17:15]It's something you do personally. And why is the world so personal? If you look at the universe anywhere, talk about the Rocky Mountains. You can talk about sand crystals.

[01:17:28]Do they call sand? No. Sand what? Grain.

[01:17:32]Sorry. Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed.

[01:17:35]Okay.

[01:17:37]sand grains.

[01:17:39]Uh what's crystal brahmacher? The >> salt crystals or I I know if you look at magnified pictures of grains of sand, they're like gems. They're all these different colors. They're like these incredible jewels.

[01:17:55]If you look at pictures of insects, it is I mean now we know where George Lucas got his ideas for the famous bar scene in the first Star Wars.

[01:18:07]If you look at insects, it's incredible.

[01:18:09]It's science fiction.

[01:18:12]If you look through the web telescope, which uh you know we do here on Thursdays if you're interested, if you look through that web telescope, it's um the galaxies are beautiful. Everywhere you look in the beauty in the universe, you find beauty. How does that happen?

[01:18:30]If there's an impersonal absolute which would never create a universe because it has no motives. In other words, you can't smuggle in all kinds of personal features like artistic, like intentional, like creative. If you're going to go with an impersonal absolute, don't cheat.

[01:18:51]You know, don't bring in philosophical contraband.

[01:18:55]face the actual consequences of espousing that highly irrational idea. And you can see why they end up saying, "Well, you can't explain it in words." Of course, you can't explain a square circle in words either.

[01:19:12]Some things you can't explain, not because they're beyond words, they're beneath words.

[01:19:19]So the the idea of an ultimate impersonal deity is beneath words. It's not beyond words.

[01:19:28]So, uh, and of course, and then how do you explain your concern with other living beings who act technically don't exist?

[01:19:39]How do you explain if you if you sign up for this impersonal truth?

[01:19:46]And why do you care about other people?

[01:19:49]Because you're caring about things that don't exist.

[01:19:53]And if you say, well, that that so-called person is also part of the impersonal absolute. Well, what happened?

[01:20:01]Who faked out God? Did God fake himself out?

[01:20:07]How can you be God, the one impersonal God, and yet you do stupid things or you imagine things or you're hallucinating as if you were an AI program?

[01:20:21]How can you hallucinate if you're the absolute and there's nothing to hallucinate about? Because if Shankr was right and there's nothing but this impersonal radiance eulgence, how could how could that one indivisible god get broken up into little stupid pieces that hallucinate and make all kinds of wrong moves and get themselves in some crazy body that has diseases.

[01:20:52]And I mean, we know how much suffering there is in this world.

[01:20:57]So what happened?

[01:21:00]And that there's only one entity which is God. So it's it's terrible philosophy.

[01:21:08]It's absolutely horrific philosophy. And if I had a philosophy like that, I would probably try to fake people out myself by saying I can't describe it in words.

[01:21:22]So uh so back at the Iscon Ranch um so then if you accept the obvious point that the universe is intensely personal that the more look at evolution you know we however you think it got there if you look at evolution the higher a being has evolved the more personal it is.

[01:21:47]I mean, have you ever met a really personal, compassionate bacteria?

[01:21:55]In fact, the way we evaluate how evolved either a human being is or how evolved some other creature is is how personal it is. To what extent they can make conscious decisions. It's like those bumper stickers that say, uh, my border collie is smarter than your honor student.

[01:22:16]You've seen those Ebie.

[01:22:21]That was really funny. And so in our real life, when we're not pretending to be philosophical and doing a very bad job at it, in our real life, more personal is better, is greater, is closer to God.

[01:22:43]And uh the more evolved a creature is or a person is, the more personal they are, the more empathy, the more compassion, the the greater ability to understand another person, to form profound friendships, to love, to actually love and not fake yourself out, not not, you know, tell yourself you're loving when actually you're just being selfish.

[01:23:07]And so, um, there you have it. personalism. And my final point here is that um as I said at the beginning, if you look at world religions, they all have this battle because there were always some smart Alex in every religion that thought that no, it's going to go with the impersonal the impersonal God. And so that's and so ultimately to make a long history short in every case in every civilization whether it's Japan, China, Europe, uh you name it, Africa, in any civilization, what ultimately wins is personalism.

[01:23:55]Why? Because it's real. Because it makes sense.

[01:24:02]And uh even Buddhism which is falsely thought to be the one hand clapping void or something although technically a void can't clap with it isn't it? But anyway, if you look at Buddhism, uh the Buddhism that became a world religion is not the slick impersonal Buddhism marketed to, you know, western educated people that had bad experiences, I don't know, in a Catholic high school. And and and and so they they want a religion that uh you know, where where you can claim you're spiritual but without all the trouble of you know, a god.

[01:24:44]That's not the Buddhism that became a world religion. The Buddhism that became world world religion is called Mahayana.

[01:24:52]And for example, if you look at the most popular form of Buddhism in Japan, which was pure land Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra, it has been compared by scholars to the Protestant re reformation that there's only one divine being that can save you. You can't save yourself.

[01:25:10]That's why Buddhism in they have deities. They have altars with little personal deities. They have bodhicattas, compassionate beings that come back.

[01:25:19]They give up their own liberation to come back to this world and save others well non-souls. And um there's paradise, there's heaven, there deities, salvation, karma.

[01:25:35]Does that sound impersonal to you?

[01:25:39]Because if you're not a person, who gets the karma? Why should you suffer for what you didn't do because you don't exist?

[01:25:48]So why should you be punished by karma when you're not a person anyway and you didn't do anything before because you were never a person.

[01:25:59]And what's interesting is if you study the history of Buddhism, there was always they were always into karma. In fact, the some of the most popular stories in Buddhism were called the Jatika stories, which are stories about the Buddhis, you know, he was a pious person and he did this good deed and he did that good deed and finally, you know, he won the grand prize and got to be a Buddha.

[01:26:24]Well, how could you have karma if you don't exist? And finally, just one last word of Buddhism is that there's a when uh Buddha first started and he was in the deer park in in this in Bihar and it was like the grand opening, the grand opening of Buddhism where they're, you know, giving out balloons to the kids and everything and free food. It's a grand opening in the deer park. And so the second lecture, the second sermon, they call it of the Buddha number two.

[01:26:54]And for thousands of years it's been called the sermon on the non-existence of the self anatma. The only problem is he never said that. Buddha never said there's no soul. He never said that. He used what is called in uh medieval theology uh uh Christian theology the via negativa the negative way where you take away everything that is not the soul and what's left is the soul it's just like when you purify water got to be careful brahmach is your mr wizard when you purify water you basically take out everything that's not water because if you have something which in its pure form is valuable then you take out everything that is not that thing whether it's gold or whether it's water whatever and so in the same way the very fact that the so-called sermon on the non-existence of the soul never says there's no soul and in fact just uses a a process which was already in the upupanads it's not that Buddha invented it was already there in the upanads where you take away everything which is not the soul and what's left is a pure soul.

[01:28:15]A philosophical technique also used in in uh in medieval Catholicism.

[01:28:23]So uh if you look at all the personalisms around the world I think without question on objective grounds uh the personalism found in Krishna conscious in the bhagad gita bhagatam is by far the most theologically philosophically sophisticated advanced just just on sheer philosophical grounds and and just to end here I will appeal to one of the great uh Christian philosophers in history, Anselm.

[01:28:58]You've all heard of St. Anselm, Italian, but made his career in England. And he's famous for what is called the onlogical proof for God's existence.

[01:29:09]He tried to he tried by pure logic to show that there must be a God. And so his argument was that God is that being than whom no greater being can be imagined. In other words, if if there is someone and you your mind cannot conceive of something greater, that must be God. And of course, the underlying assumption here is that God is the greatest.

[01:29:34]And so if you say God doesn't exist, I can imagine a greater God, namely the one that does exist. If this sounds like a philosophical trick to you, you've kind of understood it.

[01:29:48]The problem is although it really sounds like a philosophical trick, atheist philosophers been trying for a thousand years to destroy it and it still kind of keeps like that clown that keeps bouncing back up.

[01:30:02]But if you what's interesting about this ontological proof of God's existence is that Ruposami gave the same argument.

[01:30:11]And so in the baktier samindu the nectar of devotion rubosami is talking about and he's only talking about within his culture. He's not talking about uh other parts of the world. And so he says that the um some people say Shiva's god some the ult you know the highest god some people say it's uh maybe the goddess some people say even naran. And so he uses basically the same argument that if God is infinitely great, the greatest conception is closest to the truth.

[01:30:44]That's a logical argument. And therefore he says that uh Krishna our guy that Krishna has greater qualities than any other divine manifestation. And of course in basically in Indian tradition and certainly with Rupos Swami they're not fanatics. They're not. It's not tribal monotheism. It's philosophical monotheism. There's a big difference.

[01:31:10]It's not tribal monotheism. And therefore, of course, he accepts Shiva.

[01:31:14]Of course, he accepts the goddess. Of course, he accept Narion. But he's saying because Krishna has by far the greatest number of glorious qualities, therefore Krishna uh is it. I mean, Krishna is the highest understanding of God. And what's interesting is so all Anelm is going for is belief that God exists.

[01:31:39]What he didn't see in his rear view mirror is the Hari Krishna movement where we say that okay thanks anelm for showing that God exists but since there are different conceptions of God which is the highest conception he's going to lose on that one. I mean if Narion lose is my God what to speak of Yahweh. So who anyway won't go into that whole problem. So uh among and then of among monotheisms if you look philosophically not with faith not theologically simply philosophically you'll see the conception of Krishna is the greatest and in every uh to use modern language free market philosophical contest in other words everywhere in the world where people were actually given a choice to choose how they wanted to worship God without being burned alive or decapitated or something else that could as they say you know ruin your whole day. What we find is that Krishna emerges because it's just the richest most opulent most complete most beautiful idea of God and that's of course uh argued in the the definition of Bavon the one who has infinite opulences and so on.

[01:33:05]So, I'll stop there before any of you panic that I'm not going to stop.

[01:33:14]So, any any questions on these points?

[01:33:20]Yes, Gonyy, welcome.

[01:33:39]describing um and personal thought and describing all manifestations all of us living as a way for God to the earth. Whatever God as a way for God to experience itself through all these different >> Sure. It sounds just sort of like a poor man's Hegel, you know, the philosopher Hegel because Hegel was the one that said that uh that God is basically God is the force of history realizing himself through our evolution.

[01:34:30]And I would say you've got a pretty miserable god if he gets a thrill out of, you know, inhabiting our consciousness.

[01:34:40]I mean my God poor or poor God is that's the best God you can think of. The point is that God is has infinitely greater things to do. I mean as if as if you are so amazing that God is learning by inhabiting you know your or my pathetic consciousness.

[01:35:03]I mean talk about theological narcissism.

[01:35:08]It's just absurd.

[01:35:10]I mean that it's interesting people are so envious in Kalyuga the only way they can accept God is if they subordinate him to themsel like you know it's pretty boring up there in heaven God wanted to have a thrill so he kind of like he's some really conservative like you turns out I mean there have been so many cases like this very conservative preacher actually at night puts on all kinds of weird clothes and goes to the seediest parts of town to enjoy God is I mean it's it's it just sounds so ridiculous. It's so narcissistic that God is getting a thrill by inhabiting my miserable consciousness.

[01:35:50]So >> good question.

[01:36:03]Actually I pay her to ask these questions.

[01:36:07]Yes. When L when Lord Caitana came the consciousness he wanted to experience was not Joe the plumber. You know the consciousness Lord Chaitana wanted to experience was Radha who is the supreme infinite infinitely beautiful compassionate female soul.

[01:36:28]Now there you've got something worth inhabiting.

[01:36:33]So to say yeah so it's because Krishna there is a supreme male you could say principle or a supreme female so it's just like anyone who's not a chauvinist or a uh I don't know what the opposite of chauvinist is knows that a complete life there's there's a perfect balance in the universe between the male and the female and people think no it's all with the men, they're pathetic and people think, "No, it's, you know, male energy is toxic by definition." You know, even if it's a nice guy, he's still male and he's still toxic. So, um, so that's all nonsense. There's a perfect balance in the universe. The male and the female principle actually form complete human life.

[01:37:25]And so that balance, that complimentarity, the unique qualities that the male and the female bring to the world ultimately are just reflections of a supreme male and a supreme female. And that's why there is male and female. It's not just some aberration of blind evolution. It's a conscious creation. You know, we are created in God's image. And even gender- wise even male and female are in God's image.

[01:37:56]So to say that Krishna wants to experience the consciousness of a supreme infinite infinitely beautiful female is is hardly to say well if he's going to if he wants to experience Rada's consciousness why not Joe the plumber or why not actually I feel like I'm being unkind to plumbers. I'm sure there are many excellent souls who are plumbers some of them actually in the Hari Krishna movement. So to all the plumbers of the world nothing that didn't mean anything. So yeah and if you look at does that mean that God God's big thrill is to come and inhabit the consciousness of these sleazy politicians we have?

[01:38:40]Not only that it would be unnecessary because Krishna says in Bhagita uh It's I'm in the heart of every soul. Krishna already is experiencing that to say that God whatever we experience God experiences. Of course he's omnisient. So if you say God is omnisient of course he experiences everything we do. But to say that that's how he gets his kicks is perverse.

[01:39:10]It's it's like it it's just like sheer insane narcissism that even God can learn from me.

[01:39:20]Seriously. Yeah. You can learn how stupid someone can be. So, yeah. So, it's um bad idea and other reasons.

[01:39:35]>> Yes. Brahma pu.

[01:39:36]>> Yeah. You said at one point 99.99% people don't have don't exercise.

[01:39:50]>> Oh no no what I said was >> but actually okay what I said was uh that 99.9 etc percent aren't souls it's just dead matter. Oh, I if you look at the earth and say, you know, how much of course, you know, how much of of the total weight of the earth is living things and how much is non-living things. Of course, we're trying to, you know, restore a balance by destroying all the living things.

[01:40:17]But if you just if you just look at the universe, it's, you know, the overwhelming majority of things is just dead matter.

[01:40:26]And even if but but actually you you gave me an idea or as they say in Jane Austin's time but you have put me in mind that um that actually even if you look like take all the living things on earth how many have sufficient consciousness to have free will and again it's a tiny I don't know what the numbers are probably used to be much greater number of non-human things but again we're you know trying to annihilate non-living non-human So >> human up.

[01:41:01]>> Yeah. By joining a political particular political party or um you know doing different things. Yes.

[01:41:11]Because if for example to give a sort of an extreme example someone becomes a drug addict. I mean there's there are 12step programs for all kinds of things isn't it?

[01:41:21]And there there's a long list of 12step programs because when someone becomes an addict, they basically have it's like if someone let's say commit wants to commit suicide, they jump off a building and that's it. You can't change your mind on the way down.

[01:41:43]Can't change your mind. And so there are certain acts you can choose with free will, but there are acts which destroy the very free will that enabled that act.

[01:41:57]Like for example, committing a crime which will cause you to be incarcerated.

[01:42:01]Or and some people they just get so crazy they kill somebody in broad daylight. You know, they know they're going to be caught. They know but it's just it's such an extreme level of ignorance that they just do it anyway.

[01:42:16]And so if you look at the modes of ignorance then passion then goodness the famous goonas of the Bhagwat Gita then the the higher you go in consciousness the more free will you have because in Krishna's terms you are jet mana you've conquered your mind and and so really to be a free person your buddhi your intelligence your rational intelligence has to control your mind the mind is I feel like that.

[01:42:45]I don't feel like that. I know it's not good, but I just I just have to do it.

[01:42:49]Th those em irrational emotions are the uncontrolled mind. Irrational emotions that lead you to self-destructive acts.

[01:43:00]And when your rational intelligence controls the mind, then we can talk about a good life or even a spiritual life.

[01:43:11]So um yeah, so the more your rational intelligence controls, the more free will you have because even though as souls we have free will, you can do things that destroy your free will.

[01:43:27]And you can do things that increase and purify your free will. And then you get to the point of complete freedom which is pure Krishna consciousness in which you rationally choose what is absolutely in your self-interest because if we take as a universal principle that whenever people do anything they choose it because they think that's the best thing for me even in a very tragic mistaken act let's say like suicide even in that tragic act of suicide somehow a person has been driven to such a state of desperation that they think this is the best I can do for myself because it may not bring me positive happiness but it'll eliminate you know unbearable physical or emotional pain and so people it's like it's like a in philosophy it's sort of a given principle that people choose to do things because they believe that it's in their self-interest and So if you're in the mode of passion, you know, and the symptom would be you sort of put chili on everything, even your ice cream.

[01:44:40]I actually once did a program in at at a at a uh very famous Midwestern university and it was a program with graduate students that came from I think from South India. I mean, they were very nice. They're wonderful people, but they were really into their chili. And so, when they served me a plate after the program, like the dinner plate, I couldn't eat anything because everything had chili on it. So, they said, "Well, what can we do? What can we do?" I said, "Well, just bring me a little fruit bowl." So, they brought me a fruit bowl with chili on the fruit.

[01:45:13]True story.

[01:45:16]We I we should have like a column, you know, true stories from Isconis.

[01:45:21]Anyway, if the reader digest was still around, maybe we could get one of the reader digest.

[01:45:30]So, buddhi I mean Krishna calls the practice of Krishna consciousness buddhi yoga. It is the pra is the spiritual practice of rational intelligence because a rational intelligence can be defined as pursuing your ultimate self-interest and your ultimate self-interest is Krishna which is what Prolad says which literally means that people don't understand that the actual way to pursue your self-interest is Vishnu is Goda means self-interest I mean it literally means self-interest and gi means the going the way the way to your actual self-interest is Vishnu so therefore since everyone that has at least a modicum of free will is trying to pursue what they think is good for them and since the more your consciousness is covered the less you can actually understand your self-interest uh the more your consciousness is clear and transparent, the more you see that giving yourself to Krishna is not just joining a sectarian religion. God forbid.

[01:46:52]What would my mother say if she knew I joined another sectarian religion and not the one my parents gave me? So, you know, I wouldn't do that to them. So therefore, it's not a question of joining a religion. When I entered this extraordinary movement, um I wasn't interested in another religion. Last thing in the world I wanted was another religion. I wanted a science of God and I found one. So um if the more you purify your mind, the more you're actually capable of being perfectly rational and objectively calculating your self-interest, the more you surrender to Krishna. That's our claim.

[01:47:39]It's the rational pursuit of self-interest, not a sectarian religion.

[01:47:48]So maybe we'll stop there. There's one question on the >> Okay, >> I don't know, >> but we'll we will open up other time for uh a little more time for generous donations of the speaker. Yes, >> I can read it.

[01:48:00]>> Yeah, please read it.

[01:48:02]>> Along the lines of personalism and it being Mother's Day.

[01:48:06]>> Oh my god, it's Mother's Day. My apology to all the ladies that I uh didn't give a talk on Mother's Day. I owe you.

[01:48:14]>> So, could you share some stories about your mother? I love hearing stories of how wonderful your parents were and how they helped you grow in your spiritual life.

[01:48:26]>> Yes.

[01:48:31]Um I did have wonderful parents. I mean you know um they did you know they came from a different generation. They went through the depression and World War II and they were immigrants. I mean children of immigrants.

[01:48:47]So they uh they did not make the Hari Krishna curve. However, they're wonderful parents. I mean I I can't imagine receiving more love than I did. And um you know love is like money. The more you get the more you have to give.

[01:49:05]And so that's why good parents they you know give their children lots of love.

[01:49:09]It doesn't mean letting them the little monsters do whatever they want. You know, it means I mean real love means that you give them a safe place where they could exercise their free will without killing themselves. And so um yeah, but I had wonderful parents, very very loving and uh absolutely dedicated to the well-being of their children.

[01:49:31]And I think that was a uh invaluable whatever I've been able to do. I mean setting the example basically every social club they belong to was for charity. It was for helping people in need. I don't think they belong to anything that didn't have as a goal to help other people. And uh and they set a they not only my parents, my aunts and uncles, they all set this wonderful example that when you marry someone then that's you know that's it.

[01:50:01]And uh just of dedication. So but I just think of like and the misery I put them through. I was actually I my mother despite all of her incredible skills and she was u the one thing she never accomplished was getting me to clean my room.

[01:50:21]Ramacher, do you have similar stories?

[01:50:26]So, um just since it's Mother's Day to show you how, um her generation, she grew up in poverty really, you know, the uh her father died when she was very young. I mean, she hardly knew her father. And uh she lived with her two sisters and and their mother on a ranch in Riverside, California, which is about an hour and 20 minutes uh due east of Los Angeles, which was just a little Air Force town back then, March Air Force Base. And she uh won the Jitterbug contest in high school. you know, the jitterbug, extremely athletic form of dancing. But, um, so she she just went to high school because there was only enough money for one sister to go to the go to college. And so, uh, her older sister got to go to college and married the doctor.

[01:51:20]And so um and yet even though she just had a high school education and was a stay-at-home mother and I remember I have this memory every day coming home from school and every day just being met with this ause of love.

[01:51:42]I mean, just being met with real love just every day just coming home from school and uh I remember I I liked crunchy apples, which I still do. Remember that.

[01:51:55]You'll be tested on that. What is a charity's favorite fruit? Anyway, so I remember I can still see in my mind just coming home even from high school and and my mother running up to me and saying, you know, I I I bought these apples just for you. I know you like them, you know, and almost like force-feeding me.

[01:52:12]And so uh and just to show how intelligent she was um at a certain point in life she wanted to get a get a little job because I mean later they became actually very affluent and that that's another story how that was related to Krishna but in any case you know she wanted to bring in a little extra income for the family so she only had a high school education so the job she got was in the typing pool at UCLA medical center which is one of the great medical schools in the country and she wasn't even like a full-time just like in a pool of typist like they needed something typed and so with a high school education so within a few years she was actually managing the pediatric ward of of one of the most important hospitals in the country and when she retired they not only had to hire about four or five people to replace her and I didn't even know this she never told me but when when she was elderly We had to move her into assisted living and we I was just sort of going through all her things and papers and everything. And I found that when she retired from UCLA, she got a letter, this letter of high praise from the dean of the medical school, the chancellor of UCLA, the president of the entire UC University of California system, which is UCLA, Berkeley, and all the other campuses.

[01:53:39]and the governor, she got all these letters of gratitude and and and they they started this new award which was some kind of brewin award where they gave an award every year to the most valuable employee in this entire university with tens of thousands employees and she won the prize for the entire university and that was with a high school education.

[01:54:06]So I think one big advantage that was to me is that I grew up thinking as I still do that women should be very intelligent.

[01:54:18]So intelligent women never kind of you're threatening my masculinity. You know sounds actually comical but actually I grew up thinking that a woman should be very intelligent. That's that's what a normal woman should be.

[01:54:34]And so um yeah, so I'm eternally grateful and maybe on Father's Day I'll you know give a nod to my father but um yeah and they were very um it was a different generation for example after my father passed away and uh I remember my mother told me one time that you know year a few years after my father passed away she was at some kind of event sort of a social event and there was some guy and these were all sort of wellto-do people, you know, some man sort of sat next to her and he was kind of wanted to, you know, maybe we can go out or something. And uh I mean, she told me she was laughing.

[01:55:12]She thought it was like the most ridiculous thing in the world that she would want to go out with another man after her husband passed away. She thought it was just a ludicrous.

[01:55:23]She laughed about it.

[01:55:26]And so that was the what's that Tom Brokaw's book, The Greatest Generation.

[01:55:32]You know, they went through the depression. They went through World War II and they really really understood life as meant for service.

[01:55:41]It wasn't like life is meant to enjoy this and that I have a right to enjoy this. It was like that's what that's what a meaningful human life is serving.

[01:55:53]So uh mother's day.

[01:55:56]So I'm uh I'm very very grateful that Krishna gave me parents like this.

[01:56:02]And my father was no less you know on the other side of the equation.

[01:56:07]And one of them made one last thing. It was this old-fashioned culture which uh elaborate studies by Harvard have shown is actually the best thing to keep a marriage together.

[01:56:17]And that is the man and the woman, the husband and wife both had their domain.

[01:56:22]In other words, it wasn't that the, you know, that the the man kind of is in charge of everything. When if when my father would come home from work and I had some complaint about something, you know, just a kid that happened, he would always say, "Talk to your mother." He was like, "I'm too young to die." You know, he knew that if he dared to get involved in those domestic affairs, like, "Talk to your mother."

[01:56:47]And uh and also I was not when I talked to my father I was not allowed to say she like if I was angry. Yeah. She and my father would get furious.

[01:56:58]Who are you? And so I had to say my mother. It was considered to be like just an intolerable offense to say she when I was in a bad mood. You know I had to say my mother.

[01:57:12]So all glories to uh all glories to real culture.

[01:57:24]So stop there.