Henry Nowak Murder: Scrap Police Diversity Guidance? | Matt Allwright

Hinzugefügt: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]Speaking in the House of Commons in the past hour, the prime minister said the police have serious questions to answer over their treatment of 18-year-old Henry Novak, including how accusations of racism informed police thinking. The National Police Chief's Council is looking into anti-racism guidelines amid claims that Henry was failed by two-tier policing. Henry told police, "I can't ble breathe." And I've been stabbed, but was ignored by officers as his killer, Vicram Digua, convinced them he was the victim of racist abuse. The police's anti-racism document called the police race action plan aims to help police build better relationships with black communities, but has been criticized for its focus on racial equality, which includes ensures equality of outcome rather than treating everyone the same or being colorblind. Policing Minister Sarah Jones told BBC Breakfast, "It's right that the document is being reviewed. We don't think that language is is is right. Um it is right to say and it is important to say that there is historical um and a long history of racism in [music] policing that uh we need to acknowledge uh and we need to make sure um isn't there. And of course in all of the training that is done with police officers um it's a it's a it's an aspect that they are trained on. this document uh feels like it's it's it's not right and I think it's right that the MPCC are reviewing it.

[00:01:41]>> Shadow Justice Secretary Nick Timothy says Henry Novak's death shows that our law enforcement and criminal justice system are being corrupted by political correctness and left-wing ideology. So should the police scrap its diversity guidance? Is it right that certain communities are protected? I want to hear from you. 0207862.

[00:02:07]Let's have a look at some of the key wording in the police race action plan.

[00:02:12]There's a bit of it, but I think it's worth going through in a degree of detail. Here we go.

[00:02:18]Producing equality of policing outcomes for people from different ethnic groups by responding to individuals and communities according to their specific needs, circumstances, and experiences with understanding that these will be racialized and with the aim of reducing harm. It does not mean treating everyone the same or being colorblind.

[00:02:44]That's open brackets, racial equality, closed brackets. Then we'll come to another bit.

[00:02:51]Our commitment to anti-racism means uh taking a stand against racism in all its forms, proactively identifying, understanding, and tackling racial inequalities in policing. Um Shnon, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:03:11]It feels like we need somebody with hands-on experience of not just policing but also managing police officers who may be young, inexperienced and trying to interpret that into the way that they react to people in difficult complex situations which is exactly what they faced when they were faced with uh Vikram Digua and Henry Novak. What does that mean to the average serving police officer? I think there's a lot of words there um that some people may not be able to interpret or understand properly, but basically it means that when you're out pleasing the different communities, you need to respond to them according to the needs of the circumstances that you're presented with. So, if you're going out into a community and you're dealing with, for example, the black community who have disproportionately been targeted uh within policing and by other communities, um you need to be mindful of how you are addressing their concerns. That doesn't mean to say that you give them preferential treatment.

[00:04:10]You are mindful of the way that you deal with them. Many officers, for example, in my experience, even as a serving police officer out on the front line, I was 26 years operational, even as a detective, would go out and deal with many sections of the communities. And they would say, "Oh, this section of the community, they're aggressive or they're rude and therefore it's for me to speak to them that way." It's just about treating people with dignity and respect and making sure that you get the right outcome based on the situation, not based on the color of their skin or based on the fact that they're in this situation using the race card.

[00:04:45]>> Okay. using the race card. That's the way that you interpreted what you saw there with Vicram Digua that he he used the race card and that ran the risk of influencing the decisions that those officers made from the footage which you've seen. We haven't got the all the context surrounding it yet. But is that the way you interpreted what you saw in that footage?

[00:05:05]>> No, actually um what I would say is this. The officers responded to the call, the 999 call, a racially aggravated assault, and they turned up at that situation.

[00:05:16]It went horribly wrong. In my experience, what I would say is the basic principles of policing were not complied with. So you're talking about separating both parties, talking about actually just because somebody has said that they are the victim doesn't necessarily mean that they are the victim. It's about investigating, speaking to both parties, separating them if you can. In this instance, you couldn't. There was a young man lying, bleeding out on the floor that they weren't aware of at the time, but just taking it on face value the two words that were said by his brother and by him that said, "We were racially attacked."

[00:05:51]And they took it on face value that that was the case. Now, it may be unconsciously because they had already had the 999 call that they they just had that tunnel vision >> that they've taken the call. And it's interesting you use the word unconscious because when we were talking about Steven Lawrence, unconscious bias became part of that institutional racism that was and that's what people are now saying. There's an overcompensation now, an overcorrection if you like and unc unconscious bias is playing a part in the decisions that the police are making in those moments. What would you say to that?

[00:06:25]>> Well, I'd say that there is unconscious bias going on within policing. But if you're a police officer that's professional and you're dealing with a situation, you'll go in with impartiality. You would put aside the race, the the background, the history of maybe you might have had history with that individual. You deal with those circumstances. This is saying don't put that to one side. It's saying there is context that that actually there are different circumstances which apply to people from different backgrounds. Be >> be mindful. You are not going to go into a section of the community. Let's be realistic and let's be honest about what we see within policing. You're talking about institutional racism that exists or has been labeled within the Metropolitan Police. You talk about other police forces where they have admitted that they are institutionally racist. That doesn't mean that every single officer is racist. It means the systems and the processes that those of police forces use have disadvantaged certain sections of the communities.

[00:07:19]Black people are nine times more likely to be subjected to stop and search.

[00:07:24]Black people are four times more likely to die in custody or um after being restrained. Handcuffing of black people.

[00:07:31]That doesn't mean to say that every time you go to a situation you handcuff a black person, not the white person and vice versa. You've got to treat each situation on its merits. And I think police officers struggle with that. I think they also struggle with the fact that they're scared to actually deal with a situation in case they are labeled racist.

[00:07:50]>> Brian, okay, Brian, you're saying here we we have to respect what Shabin is saying. She's speaking from the heart and from experience as well.

[00:07:57]>> Would you would you rather we went back to the 1980s, the 1970s and and the stereotype of the way that the police would behave towards ethnic minorities in those times? Of course, I don't want to go back to 1970s and and 80s. There were dreadful abuses in the police force. But let's let's be remember 99% of police officers are decent, hardworking members of society who are feel calling to the police force. And let's I I do have some sympathy for the poor officers caught up in this incident. They're being vilified on social media and by some politicians.

[00:08:33]and it's uh and they've got to live with this for the rest of their lives. So, we expect police officers to rush into situations where the rest of us are turning around and running the other way and and we should just bear that in mind behind all these comments about uh police and race issues.

[00:08:51]>> Okay, Neelatha, do you think that guidance stands up to scrutiny now in the light of of what we've seen of what we've heard about Henry Novak's death?

[00:08:59]You talked about the specialized needs to fit a circumstance and the experiences of the community. You spoke about uh an an outcome of equality and you mentioned again in there the importance of uh police being able to discern and judge in a quick fire rapid way.

[00:09:16]>> I cannot believe we're still living in a world where we talk about 99% of police officers being good honorable people and the one bad apple. If I may, if I may listen to you really carefully. Let's let Nella >> There's a difference between bad policing and bad policy. Okay, this is not bad policy. It was bad policing. You can say all you like about 99% of police officers having the good intentions, but in this case, we all watch the same video. We can all see him saying, according to his father, I cannot breathe. He said nine times. He said that he was stabbed four times. Do you know what the police one off of of the officer said? I don't think so. So, there's a difference between bad policing and a bad policy. And this is a bad policy. very conscious that we can see what we can see in the footage, but we can't see inside those officers heads. We don't know what informed those decisions yet. That's what the independent um commission will find out.

[00:10:07]I I want to take a call before we go to the break. Stuart's in Bournemouth.

[00:10:11]Stuart, do you think this guidance needs banning scrapping or another close look?

[00:10:16]What do you think?

[00:10:17]>> It needs to be scrapped, Matt. Um we're in a situation where I think uh Shabban Mammud called the wording of the policy >> that we've seen clumsy. It's just flat out wrong. I watched the police commissioner or the police minister on the TV this morning and she said without fear or favor everybody is equal under the law. If you read that policy, that is not the case. And they are trained and taught the police officers. And I think the police officers went into this situation using their training. I I I I think they were they were awful in what they did. And the video is utterly shocking, but I'm not surprised by it because they're taught that if there's an accusation of racism, everything. And Henry Novak was in a situation where there was an accusation of racism. The police were called and he was effectively in a hostile environment. They didn't believe a word he said. You could you can hear the fact that they didn't believe a word he said.

[00:11:25]Sorry mate, I don't think you have been stabbed. What is that? I mean that's appalling.

[00:11:30]>> Shn I wanted to give you the chance to answer what Stuart in Bournemouth was talking about there. He's talking about outright scrapping of this of this guidance. How do you feel about that? Do you feel it serves its purpose or do we need to go into the detail, the words like we did of exactly what it's saying and how that might be interpreted by a serving officer?

[00:11:49]>> Diversity training in any environment whether it be poling, whether it be the public sector, whichever is really important. And I'll tell you why. When you are dealing with different sections of the community, whether it be the Hindu, the Sikh, the Muslim, the LGBT, women in general, vulnerable communities, the Romany community, it's good to have a level of understanding.

[00:12:11]So, be culturally competent in the understanding of some of those communities.

[00:12:16]Those race action plans are key to policing. If you look at what's happened in the last few years, child Q. Yeah, let's not forget child Q who was strip searched. Let's not forget Nina Smallman and Bieber Henry and how they were treated when they went missing, completely dismissed and ignored. Um David Carrick who went on to abuse hundreds and hundreds of women. Okay, that is >> five gay men murdered in barking. The five gay men murdered in barking that the police made murder. But equally, people will weigh against that the the number of times that Valdo Calakane managed to make it through the the net that because there were targets set for the the outcomes of people in his situation. The same thing with the Southport killer with the same thing with the Southport killer. But that the reality is people are going to say why were these people given at the car the pass to go through the system easily rather than actually seeing for the danger that they were. That is down to leadership and that is down to implementing systems and processes at work. Clearly they didn't in those situations. I think you just mentioned Steven Paul where so many young vulnerable men were murdered and so many points that were missed over that. That is the importance of understanding the difference in the various communities that policing has to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

[00:13:39]>> Understood. Uh let's take another call.

[00:13:41]Ann is in Nottinghamshire. And do you think it's time for another look at this guidance or to scrap it all together?

[00:13:47]What do you think?

[00:13:48]>> I think it's time to I I think what's going on is that someone who's well-meaning wrote the guidance in some sense to as as a clumsy way to show the difference in background. I worked in South which is an Asian area and um black and Asian people um not in that area but black and Asian people um I had one experience of the their um suffering harassment ch children on the bus were shouted at uh because of their clothing and the fact that they were Asian and white people do not have that experience I'm afraid they don't suffer from that harassment and I think the problem here is that the spotlight is being put on the um the religion of the person or the background when it was the police that were in the wrong. I think the policing in this country is appalling. I quite a lot of the conablularies are failing or close to failing and somebody I know in the military police said to me that um policing civil policing in this country is is beyond rubbish.

[00:15:01]>> Okay. And why why do you think that is from from what you understand of policing right now? Why do you think it's not doing the job that we all need it to do? because there's not any way of as a teacher I had off said in this country we don't have any u kind of assessment of police officers on the whole and in fact it would be better I've I've asked for policing to be done in the civil police by um the military police then that would sort out uh that would sort out the men from the boys I'm afraid >> okay we're talking about >> you've got far too many constabularies 42 in England. Uh I think it is and and >> what we're talking about here is guidance which covers >> well produced by the national police which is you know it's written by a committee. The problem with this policy it's written by a committee of senior police officers. A number of these senior police officers come from constabularies like Shropshshire or Cleveland.

[00:16:00]>> It's not actually just written by a number of police officers. Actually what you have is a number of focus groups and you have >> oh that's well that's even worse.

[00:16:06]different backgrounds and communities who have a good understanding of what's going on in their communities and they'll come back and they'll sit around the table and they'll start to develop this uh this program. Now, the MPCC, whoever is the author of it, they may need to be I'm all for having a review of it and having a look at it and maybe rewarding some of it to make sure that it's better understanding. I think it needs to be simplified a lot more for officers to be able to understand it.

[00:16:31]>> It's really interesting. Thank you.

[00:16:32]Let's take another call. Thanks for your call, Anne. Uh Ivon is in Ren for a shirt. Uh Ivon, do we need to look at this guidance again?

[00:16:39]>> Yes. Um as a Scottish person, I would say yes. Um because and it's not just the fact even being Scottish, you can still have racism happen to you. I know we get called jocks and also with the ceremonial knife situation. as a Scottish person. Um, fellas wearing coils, they used to wear they used to wear a dagger and their sock. That no longer happens because nobody should be carrying a knife.

[00:17:11]>> Okay.

[00:17:11]>> Really, >> Ivonne, we're looking at the guidance.

[00:17:14]We are actually talking about the ceremonial blades, the ski and do as you as you describe it there. The ski and do >> will be part of that that talk as well in a minute. But I want to focus on this guidance and and where you think it's failing. Does it need to be scrapped entirely? Is is the idea of looking at people according to their backgrounds and taking account of that in policing the way that Shabnam's describing is that not common sense?

[00:17:41]It's common sense, but I think you need to look at it from a multicultural perspective so that they get it across the board so that it's not just it's not it's not it's not going to a two-tier system where you're automatically you're going one direction. You need you need the balance.

[00:18:04]>> Could you think that's what I think? I think >> is it asking too much of a serving police officer? maybe someone that's quite inexperienced to to to understand the nuances of every different culture that they come across.

[00:18:15]>> Goodness gracious.

[00:18:17]>> Yes.

[00:18:18]>> I don't think anybody could possibly do that. But if somebody is saying, "I have been stabbed," I think they should at least take a minute to actually check and not just dismiss it straight away because he could possibly have been taken to hospital and he could still be alive just now.

[00:18:39]>> He just took one minute. The the reality is Ivon sadly that we think that that wouldn't have been the case that um uh Henry Novak that the first blow unfortunately um was lethal for him.

[00:18:52]Before we get to that, Nigel Farage has been on his feet in the House of Commons asking the prime minister about socalled two-tier policing. He was shouted down by MPs around the chamber for not condemning the violent protests in Southampton last night. Have a look at this.

[00:19:09]The instructions that are given to police officers from police bosses are clear and written down in ink. It says you must treat different ethnic groups in different ways that apart from the apart from the the upset and the anger at the circumstances of his death, the anger that you saw >> spilling out in Southampton last night.

[00:19:38]it.

[00:19:44]>> And which is in danger, >> condemn the violence, >> which is in danger of getting considerably worse.

[00:19:50]>> If the public lose trust, >> it condemn it.

[00:19:54]>> If the public lose trust in being treated fairly by the police, >> the prime minister says he's shocked by Nigel Farage's question. I'm going to come to you, Brian. What do you make of Nigel Farajger's role in the last 24 hours? What he said and what he's done?

[00:20:10]>> He's poured petrol on a burning fire. Uh the man is a disgrace and uh he should that that demonstration, that riot if you like, last night in Southampton was caused by far right uh Tommy Robinson was there, Lawrence Fox was there, others of the far right. uh and and why you wouldn't condemn that demonstration that needed the deployment of riot police. I don't know. That's not the way to pursue any cause in this country. It it's just not the way to to make your feelings uh known. And Farage and Yousef, they have just behaved disgracefully and not in the way that Henry Novak's parents want politicians to behave at all. He made it very clear Mark Novak that he didn't want this to correct division in the country. You feel that that's what >> Farad prospers by division. His whole party's whole campaign his whole election strategy is to promote division in the United Kingdom. The other political parties on the whole, you know, we're not into promoting division.

[00:21:16]>> Nellifer, what would you have hoped from for from the leader of a a political party at that moment?

[00:21:22]>> From Mr. Farish, I expect nothing less.

[00:21:24]Um, he called for pure cold rage.

[00:21:28]He called for pure cold rage. That's what he wants us to feel. He called he said that there's enough of anti-white prejudice and that white lives matter as much as black lives. This isn't a dog whistle. This isn't this isn't an attempt at trying to hide what he feels in the sentiment that he shows. Mr. Farage is trying to create a race riot.

[00:21:49]Mr. Farage is keen to create such division that people either arm themselves or go out on mass and and and cause havoc. We saw what this does in older >> Germany of the late 1920s.