Retreat: Swami Vivekananda's "Song of the Sannyasin" (Session 3)

[00:00:28]Okay, so we're continuing with the syasin.

[00:00:34]Friday night we had the introduction and I did the first verse. Then this morning we did the next two and uh I'm going to continue. Yeah. Very clear. Now we're not going to get through the whole thing. So, but uh I don't think it's so important to push through to cover everything because each verse you could give a whole whole lecture on each individual one. Okay.

[00:01:02]So, what I've tried to do is find a little bit of logic. It wasn't just uh at random that I did the last two verses and I'm going to do these three. uh whether Swami Gi meant it to be that way or or whether it just flowed that way because he didn't write it like an essay or anything. It's poetry of course that it seems there seems to be a thread uh different different main themes or topics uh will will uh relate to certain verses. So I tried to do it with uh with these verses actually the next four uh to find some hidden logic behind all of them. But let me let me read these first then we'll go through that.

[00:01:52]Who sws must reap they say and cause must must bring the sure effect. Good good bad and none escape the law. But who so wears a form must wear the chain.

[00:02:06]Too true. But far beyond both name and form is Aman ever free. Know thou areas and bold say.

[00:02:18]They know not truth who dream such vacant dreams as father, mother, children, wife and friend. The sexless self whose father he whose child whose friend whose foe is he who is but one.

[00:02:34]The self is all in all. None else exists. And thou art that bold says om.

[00:02:43]There is but one. The free the knower self without a name without a form or stain. In him is Maya dreaming all this dream. The witness he appears as nature soul. No thou that selson bold says where seekest thou that freedom friend this world nor that can give in books and temples vain thy search. Thine only is the hand that holds the rope that drags thee on. Then cease lament. Let go thy hold. Syasenb say tutsut. Oh, so these particular few verses uh I understand to a large extent in terms of this very basic question of selfidentity we spoke about it earlier a little bit uh when when we think of ourselves what is that sense of identification that we have it it'll be different with the different people it can be in terms of religion, in terms of ethnicity, it could be in terms of just male, female, it could be in terms of all different possible things.

[00:04:02]And these are all a question of uh identifying with the apparent self or lower self or changeful self.

[00:04:13]So this is uh this is that question that seems to come up and in these verses we'll see that it's looked at from different points of view and the first I will say is from the point of view of the ja or jivman now we have these different terms in vanta what is the distinction between ja and jivvatman are more or less identical between ja and atman What is the distinction between the two?

[00:04:48]Only an apparent distinction.

[00:04:51]No real distinction because the the ja in reality is the real self. But there's a a an empirical distinction or phenomenal or apparent distinction because of this sense of identification.

[00:05:07]So let me give one simple example. In the katu panishadan we read about the chariot and the passenger inside of the chariot.

[00:05:20]Now this this a very nice illustration that the chariot itself is like this physical body. The driver charioteer is like the intellect buddy. The rains are like the mind and the horses are like the senses and the the roads and objects are like sense objects.

[00:05:42]Now we're told that the passenger inside so the passenger inside is not responsible for driving not responsible for anything but can see can look out the windows and observe everything that's that's taking place. This uh passenger inside is called the atman.

[00:06:03]Now Shankaria in his commentary he identifies the passenger inside as the jievatman.

[00:06:12]Now why why make it a distinction?

[00:06:16]Because the passenger inside feels some connection with all the with the chariot and the charioteer and everything else.

[00:06:26]He feels that he belongs that he sees the world through them. He thinks with with the help of them. So this is the ja that ja at any time can leave the chariot behind. The passenger can walk outside. When the passenger leaves the the chariot then we may say this is the real atman. He gets back into the chariot and then the ja. So there's no real distinction between the ja and or or jivotman and the atman.

[00:06:58]This is why we can call the two of them the real self and the apparent self. The appearance of something is nothing but the same thing.

[00:07:07]They're one and the same. The real self and apparent self. So this this particular verse uh refers to the individual in the context of this body mind incentives. We we we see in again chapter two of Gita that Sri Krishna refers to this the the self the individual from two points of view. One, he uses this term dehei.

[00:07:38]Dehei means the one possessing a body.

[00:07:41]And the one who possesses a body is born and dies, gives up that body and enters into another body, takes off the old clothes, puts on new clothes. So this is the the ja that seems to take rebirth. We talk about rebirth that seems to take rebirth because it'll take on a new body. When he talks about Sri Krishna talks about the atman then he'll say it was never born it never dies it never had a body it was only through some false assocation so the distinction it's it's it's not a strict distinction but it's an important distinction so we're going to talk about karma here [clears throat] and this idea of karma we have to think in terms of the ja the atman the real self There's no karma involved with it. That uh no matter what is done, there's no effect that's left on it. It's almost like a mirror that no matter how many people pass in front of it and and leave an impression, there's no mark left. As soon as they leave, it's it's gone. Mirror is awfully clear and and uh never never there's never any effect of of what it witnesses that way.

[00:08:59]So, it doesn't judge, it doesn't change, nothing like that happens.

[00:09:03]So now we're going to see that uh uh we we're going to tie this in with this idea of karma. This fourth fourth verse it wraps up the earlier three a little bit by going back to this theme of of bondage and now it's going to explain another type of bondage through karma.

[00:09:24]So uh it starts out who sws must reap. They say in cause must bring the sure effect. Good, good, bad, bad, and none escape the law. But who so wears a form must wear the chain to true. But far beyond both name and form is atman never free. So basically distinction between ja and the atman.

[00:09:49]So now we come to this idea of karma.

[00:09:53]Now this idea of karma is it a bonding type of concept or a freeing type of concept.

[00:10:06]I I'll say both.

[00:10:09]I'll say both because uh if we feel that uh whatever we've done whatever happens to us in this lifetime is the result of our own doing.

[00:10:24]I'm responsible for it. Then a certain freedom comes that I don't have to blame anybody. I don't have to question why did God make this happen happen to me? I don't have no regrets nothing and I take full responsibility and uh it gives a sense of of uh freedom to change also. So Swami G emphasizes this idea if now I'm the sum total to a certain extent of all my past experiences and my past actions and decisions and everything that that's that has created the person that I am now the character that I have the personality the nature that I have then uh what I do in the present and in the future can determine the nature that I want to have so I can recreate myself freedom freedom we have that freedom to uh become the people that we want to become.

[00:11:26]So this is this is how this doctrine of karma uh can be seen as both a type of bondage if if we like that no way to escape the law. Uh he says that that we and and how does it work? We do bad things then there'll be some effect from that. We do good things there'll be some effect. Of course everything is mixed.

[00:11:49]not so uh sharp distinction black and white good and bad like that but this idea that we're the ones who have created this karma in the past that we're the ones who can change it also and this ability to change our karma is what we call spiritual life spiritual life yes spiritual life we may say oh god realization and all of that but What it really means is that we're trying to transform ourselves.

[00:12:24]We're trying to make ourselves that perfect instrument so that we can have that highest type of realization.

[00:12:32]So this transformation this is an essential feature is a very wrong idea according to my understanding very wrong idea to think that everything depends on power of concentration the ability to make the mind quiet this and that and none of it is any good if the if the mind is not the the proper instrument for it if it's being pulled down by a lot of negative type of karma and and by karma era I mean these impressions these tendencies that we have.

[00:13:06]So and it goes back again to Thomas and Rajes to all of these either the mind is too restless or the mind goes to sleep.

[00:13:16]When we sit for meditation these two tendencies lia is one toic mind we see sometimes uh with ourselves with others the minute we close our eyes head goes down and we fall asleep. Other people the exact opposite. The minute they close their eyes, mind is racing. One idea after another comes and everything. So no way to control such a mind. Uh we have to cleanse that mind. Purify the mind. Why Takar always talks in terms about this?

[00:13:46]This pure mind. Yeah. And pure mind means pure heart. Pure heart. What is the distinction between pure heart and pure mind?

[00:13:56]Pure heart will will deal with these passions.

[00:14:00]this tendency toward anger and jealousy, lust and greed and pride, all of these things. And the pure mind will be a quiet mind. And and this pure mind uh is not possible without the pure heart. If we don't develop that type of love and compassion and unselfishness and and sweetness of nature, we'll never be able to control the mind. So these two things are essential and uh and we we get that optimism through this doctrine of karma. Now I'm calling it a doctrine and I'm going to make this distinction tomorrow even even more strongly that we all have a desire to know how things work. Yeah. How does how does karma really work?

[00:14:50]uh how do we explain the creation of this universe? Yeah. What is what is the real nature of Maya? And the best we can do is is talk about what is the particular theory or doctrine that we have uh according to so and so at a particular period of time that uh we shouldn't think that there's only one possible explanation for how things happen.

[00:15:17]So if we look at at Sharma Krishna whatever happens to him what is his explanation for it mother's will he won't bring in this karma idea uh to the same extent that Swami G will because this is the attitude that works better for Swami G at least at this stage of his life now if we look at Swami G's life he has some experiences in India in Kashmir the Girhani temple where afterwards everything is mother's will now he understand it and then he he joined your tur with that but it doesn't negate this idea these are all so I like to think in terms of spiritual attitudes this is a spiritual attitude that we can take that can be very very helpful that uh it's my karma what can I do we we all want to know how do we deal with negative things that happen in So this is one one very nice way of doing it. If nobody minds I'll tell another story about Swami Swahanand Gi.

[00:16:25]Yeah.

[00:16:27]I went to visit him one time and uh after I'd moved to Washington and we went for a walk together and uh at that time his he had one or two attendants that used to look after him and they were all gone. I don't one went to India, one was to transfer something and so he really had nobody to look after him. So I I said maj I feel so sad that there's there's nobody there to look after you now. Now you're old your old age you need so much help and everything and he looked at me very sweetly and he said what can I do? It's my karma.

[00:17:06]Uh and now the point is uh was it really his karma? Did he ever do anything that made him deserve to be left without an attendant at that stage of his life? No.

[00:17:19]I am absolutely convinced that uh this is this is not some scientific fact that that was the reason for it. Practical reason. We don't know why things happen.

[00:17:31]Sometimes we even think just randomly things happen. But it gave him such peace of mind to to take that attitude. this is my karma. I could just see it like that that otherwise he could say yes these rascals they don't come up with somebody to help this and that. Yeah, but he it didn't even occur to him to think that way. So this can be a very very helpful doctrine. At the same time, if we're identified with this lower self, it can be a cause of bondage. So we have both of these things. uh if if we think of ourselves as the ja and we think that whatever I do it's going to be another chain that is going to bind me in the future I won't be able to get out of it then it's a source of bondage if we understand that uh the things that are happening these are things that I just do to come to me they'll be gone I'll finish this karma and and I'm not this this lower self anyhow so we have all of these these different ways of looking at This now Swami G emphasizes this idea of this cause and effect. Actually this this theory of carism is simply cause and effect.

[00:18:47]Everything we do, everything we we see, everything we we feel, everything we experience will leave a mark on us. This is a psychological doctrine. There's a metaphysical doctrine also. This is a psychological doctrine that I think everybody can accept. It's not a question of religion or anything. It's basic psychology that we know.

[00:19:10]Even things that happened in our childhood that we have no memory of uh could have been something traumatic and could have left a mark. And now we have all all these these practices of uh of analysis psychological analysis and going back and trying to find out why we have certain phobias and many all different things to tracing it back to different experiences.

[00:19:35]There's even past life analysis trace it back to a previous lifetime. Whether we can do it or not I'm not sure but still uh this this so a simple doctrine of cause and effect. The other aspect of karma is metaphysical doctrine that if we do something in in one lifetime that almost requires uh paying off the debt that in the next lifetime some event may take place or some some aspect of her birth may take place as a direct result of that.

[00:20:15]Now, uh, we can trace this back to anything. And, uh, I've I've seen very sensible things and I've seen some very ridiculous things. Somebody's is subject to get a sore throat and someone says, "Yes, I see many lifetimes ago, you were hung by the neck. You were a pirate or something like that." All sorts of doctrines. We didn't all speculation. We don't know. But there is is this idea that we have something called the karma and that will determine certain things like the family that we're born into. So that can't be changed. So they say the karma that this is the one aspect of karma that won't be changed. Length of life. So somebody attains god realization and they live in under 100 years because of their proud of the karma. somebody else gets realization and they're gone the next day we're merged into God that that same time that it'll be explained in terms of this pra the karma so I say it's a theory we don't know how accurate is or anything but this is this is that doctrine now ashramakrishna is not terribly fond of this doctrine of praabda karma he accepts it and softens it to a tremendous degree he says that uh through our spiritual practice and through the grace of God through our prayer, through our devotion and through living a a life of unselfishness that we can tremendously reduce what would something that maybe would have happened to us. So, holy mother gives that example if we're destined to be run with a sword that perhaps that we become great devities with transformation, we'll get a pin prick.

[00:22:07]So it can be greatly reduced that way.

[00:22:10]But uh to go back to this other idea that uh there there is a sense of of peace that we can get by accepting things even if we accept things as inevitable uh without this idea of karma or we accept it as mother's will. All different ways of of practicing acceptance and surrender.

[00:22:34]It's very very helpful in in in spiritual life and life in general that uh yeah it wasn't meant to be. What can I do now? There are certain times when [snorts] we can fight against this that it wasn't meant to be. I'll show them it's okay that I can do it. So there are times we're tested in life. We it doesn't mean we just give in to everything. We we want a job that's very important to us. We go the first day they say no you no need to come back and we go back day after day and finally they say okay you put in an application but we won't accept it and every year another application and finally say okay now we see you're really serious you come they do this very often in in the Buddhist tradition in monasteries any young man goes to join to become a monk first thing they'll do they'll slam the door in his face and he can say ah it wasn't wasn't wasn't meant to be wasn't God's will or he can say no that I I I'll keep going back until they let me in then one day they open the door please come so we don't know about these things this is my whole point how karma works and everything and when we fight against it and when we learn to accept things acceptance and surrender ultimately are are gifts of God this is the type of grace that we get when we can just accept things as they are and and not always fight against them and this acceptance brings great peace of mind.

[00:24:10]One last swami swan story that he used to tell this often that there was a man who was suffering from a very painful type of ailment and he went from doctor to doctor can you cure me of this I'm suffering very much from this and they all said no we don't know what to do how to fix it or anything so he goes one day to a fortune teller and she looks into her her magic bowl whatever it Yeah. What do they call it? Magic ball. Crystal ball.

[00:24:44]And she says, "I see you'll suffer from this for another 10 years." And the man says, "Yes, and after that after that you'll get used to it."

[00:24:55]So this is that surrender. And the man was happy because we we can reach that point that yes, it's my karma. So we can we can do that. So this is a very uh positive element to this. We won't blame anybody else. Yeah. So Swami G has that other poem, no one but me to blame. He says so and we don't get angry at God.

[00:25:20]This is this is one thing that I've seen. We have many very wonderful uh wonderful devities who really feel that whatever happens takqua's grace and I've seen so many times that they'll say oh maharaj I was about to have an accident and suddenly the other car swerved takquar saved me no anything wrong with this I always say okay but what do you say when the other person doesn't swerve have an accident. Tucker didn't save me. He didn't care. He was busy with something else. So we have to be cautious about these things. That's all. So uh is someities will say it was also will that I had this accident. It could have been the worst. It could have been this. These are all spiritual attitudes. Now this uh will of God and karma, how do these two work together?

[00:26:22]Swami G is saying everything is karma.

[00:26:24]Takqu is saying everything is mother's will. Do they contradict each other?

[00:26:32]>> Huh?

[00:26:35]>> Yeah. Do they contradict each other on one level? Yes. I mean they're different. Yeah. If it's mother's will, then she can will something that's not based on karma. She can just be fickle if she wants. As a bad person, I'll make this person good. Good. Yeah. But uh there's a way to understand this where they they have a big overlap area.

[00:27:01]One way of course is just their attitudes, spiritual attitudes.

[00:27:06]Like I say, did Swami Swan did he himself believe it was his karma? I don't think so really. But somehow he he had faith in that whole idea and it was helpful. Somebody says that uh whatever happens to me is mother's will and it's the best thing for me. Now I like that attitude. I try to follow that. If you ask me, do you really believe it? Uh then I'm stuck.

[00:27:35]Yeah. Do I really think that mother is has nothing else to do but but but watch every action that I do that she's going to spend so much time on on do I make a left turn or a right-hand turn? No. But it's as I say it's a spiritual attitude that appeals to me and on some level yes I believe it of course on some level.

[00:27:58]Now uh Shrami Krishna he's always talking about mother's will that whatever happens is mother's will and with himself that uh I don't do any I am simply the instrument whatever I do whatever I say mother speaks to them he talks now can we say that everything is mother's will yes but can we say everything I do is mother's will no see These are the subtle distinctions in here. Whatever happens the will of God.

[00:28:32]Okay. But for me to say that I only act as mother makes me act.

[00:28:39]That is pure hypocrisy. We do all sorts of nonsense and we'll we'll say mother's will. So there was one conversation that uh somebody says that to Krishna that everything is your is according to your will mother. Uh so Tak says, "Oh, is that so?" And then he says a very interesting thing that if you eat chilies, won't your tongue burn?

[00:29:08]Now it seems to be a perfect nonsequ how does that follow from this talk about this will of God? So what he's saying is that uh yes will of god works through this this law of karma also that uh uh what we say is the will of god very often is that what we've done we have to experience the results of that so we can see how they don't really contradict each other yeah could be very strong one time he said to somebody that uh you people You're like dogs and jackals running around the backside of other dogs and jackals and you're saying whatever I do is mother's will. How dare you say that?

[00:29:56]So this this uh everything is mother's will or I only act as mother makes me act. This is for somebody whose ego is completely eaced is a very high state. So even this idea I I I'm an instrument in the hands of God. See one is that mother works through me that I I nobody sees the real agent and everything or I'm the agent but I do as she makes me do even this is is is uh really something for a very highly highly evolved soul to be able to say that.

[00:30:36]So this this karma idea it leads to some feeling of of strength of self-control that we we're in charge that and we take responsibility.

[00:30:48]We take responsibility for all of our actions. This is this is where this karma theory uh meets this doctrine of of self of of self-will or free will that karma will give an inclination to the mind automatically to react in a certain way and this this higher aspect of the mind they say that bigamay kosha this this buddhi what we call intelligence has the power to veto the mind.

[00:31:19]So sometimes they say free will means the power to say no that everything is telling me yes don't share take that last piece of cake enjoy it and then the heart mind will say no this is not the right thing to do we share it with somebody else so we have that that tendency towards selfishness perhaps and uh we take charge and then we start to see that sharing is caring we tell the kids sharing is caring And we get more joy out of sharing. And this is how gradually we we transform ourselves.

[00:31:56]So these are very positive lifegiving ideas. Even though when we identify ourselves and we feel we're like a machine, we're trapped in this round of karma, then there's a type of bondage there.

[00:32:11]So ultimately uh these are spiritual attitudes.

[00:32:16]There's a theory of karma.

[00:32:19]uh to a certain extent we can say law of karma but do we know exactly how it works? No. Swami Gi says that this is a working hypothesis. He uses that term working hypothesis that someday we may have a clearer and better understanding of how this whole process works with rebirth and re and this passing of karma and everything. Now, how does this work? How does this karma travel with us? If we want to talk about we we've we're reborn, who is the eye that is doing the action? Who is this eye who is is to whom this karma is clinging? And how does it go from one lifetime to another lifetime?

[00:33:11]So we we have these different doctrines something called the punch kosha doctrine when we read the gospel we understand this in terms of the peeling the onion this is how takar explains this this uh this particular doctrine that uh we want to know the real nature of the self of the eye and it's hidden it's hidden inside of this multi-layered person that we are multi-layered So the outermost layer is this physical body and within that we have all of the senses the pranas all of that within that we have the mind within that we have the intellect bigameosha within the subconscious mind and it's concentric circles so if we accept the the outer one we get all of them if we peel off the the the body one we peel off that all of the others remain. So if we we go to sleep at night basically we're peeling off the uh we have we have no awareness of the physical body we have a dream we're living in the all of the other koshas physical body is is dead to us it's functioning of course but it's dead to us so we can peel them all off one by one but the curious thing is that who is doing all of this analysis and peeling is the big kosha it's one of the so the very very uh complex type of of doctrine. But where does this karma reside and how does it go from one lifetime to another lifetime? So the the doctrine we have we five koshas and also three bodies. The shar we tula is this physical body sukma what we call subtle body and ka which we call the causal body. So these three things this physical body can be removed without affecting anything else.

[00:35:21]See with an onion you can peel off the outer hard outer crusty layer and it won't affect anything else. Some of the others may be a little bit uh very hard to peel. You start to peel one and a part of the other one comes off. Yeah.

[00:35:35]But this one's easy to to come off. So this one comes off easily and then it's this subtle body and causal body because uh we can't peel off any of the innermost ones. We have to do it outside to inside. So the the mind will be uh the repository of all these past experiences in the form of memory and in the form of unconscious we can say unconscious memory. It's a it's almost a contradiction in terms but uh leaving an unconscious mark so that uh when we when we take a new body if this is the way the process works we take a new body we don't necessarily have the memory of anything from the past lifetime in fact very few of us have any memory of a past lifetime uh because it's now more than this causal body so that's carrying all of these old experiences And it manifests in the new individual not in terms of some uh conscious memory but in terms of impressions and in terms of personality traits and uh in terms of even talents that we have, skills that we have and whatever spiritual progress we've made that also whatever inclinations spiritual inclinations these uh all come along with that.

[00:37:11]So this this karma when we when we perform action over and over again uh it leaves its result on all three different bodies. This is also a a curious factor.

[00:37:25]Uh if we if we look at uh the basketball player now basketball players some of them they'll practice free throw shooting. They'll do it over and over and over again. The effects of that will also be in this physical body that of this muscles have a learning tendency that they'll be able to do it almost blindfold and they do it over and over again. So this is one way this that it will that type of karma will be even in this physical body but ultimately it's in the mind. So then everything else uh in terms of memory all the experience that will be in in this uh this subtle body and then as I say there will be experiences that we forget we don't even remember in childhood this happened or that happened that's in this causal body so this the subtle body and causal body they'll come and uh these will will be the things that will manifest as these sums goddess and is it important to trace them back to know why we have these different attitudes and uh sometimes it's helpful if we have some some really traumatic experiences that we've buried within that I I won't say that it's not uh can not possibly a good thing this psychoanalysis and everything but for the most part it better just to accept yes I know I have this tendency I get angry easily do I need to know exactly why what I did in a previous lifetime no I can I can deal with these things now the negative side of this is that we become identified too much with this karmic person that I feel that's who I am I am a bundle of my qualities and characteristics and everything so that we want to be able to uh identify with that witnessing consciousness that is there throughout the whole process that's observing the workings of the mind and the body and the senses and everything else uh throughout the whole the whole lifetime.

[00:39:38]So this is what it means to dwell within this realm of karma with within this realm of maya within this realm of leela this relative aspect identifying ourselves with everything that is is secondary and superficial.

[00:39:54]I won't say that it's not a part of who we are. It's it's a very important part of who we are. We don't want to deny our our past and and our value system and everything but we don't want to limit ourselves to that and what's limiting is this this total sense of identification that yes this is who I am we ask people who are you and we see with the type of answer that they give uh for for many people uh it'll be in terms of their race their religion some their their career whatever they've done this all different types of things. Somebody say yes. Who are you?

[00:40:34]I'm a scientist. Who are you? Uh I am by the grace of God I'm Muslim. Swami G had an experience. He asked a one elderly woman in India once and she says by the grace of God I'm Muslim. He was so happy to hear that. [laughter] Anyhow but no matter how wonderful we are and how much we identify suppose I say yes who am I? I'm a satu. I'm a monk of the Ramach Krishna order.

[00:41:01]Equally false identification.

[00:41:04]I'm nothing but the real self. I'm nothing but the witness. But it's a positive thing. So the again different levels of of all of this.

[00:41:14]So this is how Swami Gi ends this fourth of earth fourth verse that far beyond this karmic body this this identification with his lower self is the atman ever free. No thou art that bold says om.

[00:41:32]Now we get to this next verse. We're going to see we're starting out with this ja idea. Now we'll get a little bit more of this atman idea. They know not truth who dream such vacant vacant dreams as father, mother, children, wife and friend. The sexless self whose father he whose child whose friend whose foe whose foe is he who is but one. The self is all in all. None else exists.

[00:42:00]And thou art that bold says.

[00:42:07]So now we're trying to go beyond this sense of identification with the lower self. Swami G mentions two aspects of this false identification that are critical and essential to every individual's understanding of who they are. So one of these is uh relationships.

[00:42:33]We think of ourselves and I'm the father mother of so and so child of so and so these types of relationship. This is the first thing that he talks about and the other is gender identity. Now this of course is is a a very big issue nowadays. Uh we didn't have these these discussions many years ago but still uh the point of all of this is is not do I identify with the biological body. Uh do I feel a man trapped in a woman's body woman trapped in a man all of these things. And nowadays we understand that these these things are legitimate. We we can can be respectful but they're all false identification.

[00:43:16]All of them. It doesn't matter. We're not being disrespectful to anybody. I feel I have a male body. I'm a man.

[00:43:23]False identification. If we if we limit it to somebody who says, "Oh, you think you're transgender that this is all that you can you can get analysis and get over all of that?" Yeah. that we're not talking about that at all. We can accept that. Yes, maybe maybe somehow there are female sums that give us some idea of being a woman and born in a male body.

[00:43:44]Yes. But there there are all false identification from the point of view that I am the real self. I am the witness. So Swami is emphasizing this that not only with the the atman Brahman also we we may think of God in terms of mother divine mother. We may think of God in terms of Shiva father.

[00:44:09]Does the Brahman have have any indications of gender?

[00:44:15]That these are these are the attitudes, spiritual attitude and and a lot of it is also highly prejuditial views of what we take to be female and masculine qualities.

[00:44:32]So it's a cult it's to a large extent a cultural thing that uh we feel that women will always be soft and sweet and nice and compassionate and loving. Men will always be strict and demanding and uh certain cultures for men to cry is a horrible thing. Uh for women to be aggressive a horrible thing. These are cultural almost superstitions prejudices.

[00:44:56]Nowadays, we know uh when I was growing up, uh boys went to shop and girls went to home economics. We had somebody home.

[00:45:04]Uh they I don't know if they still have it. They learned to bake cakes and boys are learning how to use a lathe and machinery and everything. Yeah. And uh girls were simply told that uh science and mathematics are not for girls. You don't have you don't have the mind for for that. Don't feel bad about it. This is biology. This is just the way it is.

[00:45:28]And now we know how ridiculous this is.

[00:45:32]So uh a lot of these things when we talk about gender and everything uh are in terms of qualities and not in terms of biological things. So uh we talk about left brain, right brain and all of that.

[00:45:46]Actually uh the the ideal personality is a blend of what we call male and female qualities.

[00:45:54]So we look at the life of Shami Krishna.

[00:45:57]Uh he was a type of individual that uh had almost zero identification with himself in terms of physical body and in terms of gender. And he practiced different spiritual practices that required thinking of oneself as a woman.

[00:46:17]And in in this in the tradition especially vaynav tradition with his madhur bhava and also vatya bhava that one wants to look upon god as a as a child that one generally will identify not with the father but with the mother.

[00:46:34]So men can practice this and this this motherhaba looking upon oneself identifying with Radha and we're looking upon Krishna as the beloved uh is generally done by men.

[00:46:50]I mean women can do it but we see that the paradigm very often uh Chaitanya Deva and Shamak Krishna that men will also do this. So this line starts to vanish and we understand that uh identification male female that uh if we're thinking in terms of qualities and everything that uh uh had nothing to do with the physical body so Krishna used to talk about some of his disciples say uh Swami G was Swami G and he would talk about uh what was his name abhavanat And he would say the Bahamanat has all these female represent female aspect of God. But he he marries and has children and everything. Had nothing to do with with any modern day ideas of of of gender. It has to do with uh more devotional and softnatured and everything. And again these are kind of cultural types of of things. So this uh this idea uh very strong sense of identification with ourselves in terms of male or female uh this is one source of bondage the other is the relationships now nobody wants to say that no I have no connection with my mother with my father with my children anything like that but uh we don't want to be defined in those types of terms that very strong type of identification is very restricting and very limited type of thing.

[00:48:27]So this idea that we uh we we won't define ourselves uh just in terms of of this part of the accident of birth because we don't choose our parents. Of course some will say maybe on the transitional but generally we don't choose them but even our friends and everything. Uh now these are all important things that uh we we want to have good connection good associations uh but we don't want to limit ourselves and restrict ourselves and we want to expand our vision so that uh we see all of these relationships in divine terms that we see the selfresiding in in all this is what we'll find also uh in this in this poem that uh even these relationships uh can be expanded and that same love that we feel for our near and dear ones we can feel for everyone. So this idea, how do we transcend this idea? I am the son of so and so that we have this uh to ma to to we have this idea to all of these ideas that h how do we how do we look upon how do we explain this? What do we mean when I say thou alone art my mother, thou alone art my father?

[00:49:54]Now, two ways of doing this.

[00:49:57]Most people will take this in in the sense that we're referring to God alone is my real mother and God alone is my real father. Right? The standard way of understanding it. But we can also say that God alone is manifest as my earthly mother, my earthly father. I look upon so look upon God as mother, God is the father. So we we also have this way of uh of understanding that to see that that same relationship that same motherhood same divinity there was an incident in the life of Shamaki Krishna uh holy mother was putting some oil on his feet massaging his feet and she she looked at Shami Krishna and she for somehow she asked him how do you look upon me So he thought for a moment and then he said the mother who is living in the nabat that meant his earthly mother biological mother she was living at that time the mother who's living there in the kali temple that means divine mother mother Kali and the one who is now massaging my feet I see they're all one and the same so the one way to get out of the restrictive nature of uh these human relationships is to see them in terms of of these divine types of of relationships.

[00:51:32]So now we get to the next few lines in verse six. There is but one the free the knower self without a name without a form or stain. In him is Maya dreaming all this dream the witness he appears as nature soul. So now we've gone from uh identifying ourselves with the karmic individual the ja to thinking of ourselves in terms of the higher self the atman the witness and now this witness is really nothing but that infinite absolute reality that we call Brahman. So we see a little bit of this transition that's coming here. This final identification uh of the self with Brahman. Now we have different ways again now this this uh idea that there's only one way of understanding this relationship between Otman and Brahman and everything that there multiple ways and uh we have beautiful illustrations and examples that again seem to contradict each other. If we look at it as some type of scientific explanation, if we look at it as the different models and different attitudes, then we can see that they're all very helpful. So we have this idea of what's called prativ reflection, doctrine of reflection.

[00:52:54]Tak mentions this all of the time. This body is like a container. It's filled with water. This water is the mind and this sun is the real source of consciousness the Brahman and that sun will we'll see a reflection of that sun inside the the water and this is the atman this is the self and what we do is we see the reflection without knowing the real sun and we identify it with the water and we come up with all sorts of of theories of how the water can somehow through evolution and DNA turn itself self into the reflected sun not knowing that there's a real sun. So this is one way of explaining that uh this Brahman is the source for this individual consciousness of all of us.

[00:53:43]The other way of saying is that I am that sun. I'm not simply this reflected sun. I am that that sun. So we have this other way of looking at it that uh this wave on the surface of the ocean is really not distinguishable from the ocean itself. When that subsides then I know that I am that ocean. So this this absolute oneness uh which appears to be separate because of again this identification with the with the lower self. Then Swami Gi talks about this idea of of the dream and this this way of understanding metaphysical idea of creation in terms of the dreaming phenomenon. The process of dreaming is very helpful. Again, it's not the final answer and we may not like it at all. It may appeal to us. It doesn't matter. But it's one very nice way of understanding it.

[00:54:45]If we if we analyze the phenomenon of dreaming. Okay. Now we have to start with someone who is sleeping. There has to be a a sleeper for there to be a dream.

[00:54:59]Okay. So we're sleeping and we we can say that now we can identify ourselves as a sleeper. We're the sleeper. Now what happens when uh when a dream comes?

[00:55:15]First of all, we don't we don't choose to do it. We're sleeping.

[00:55:21]We're sleeping. It simply emerges. How does it emerge? We don't know. We don't know how it emerges. Some force deep cosmic mind psychology. We don't know.

[00:55:33]But somehow it it emerges. Now the sleeper is no longer simply a sleeper.

[00:55:39]The sleeper is a dreamer but still a sleeper. He can't be a dreamer unless he's also sleeping. Now what does that mean? That means that Brahman now has become Ishwara but is still Brahman. And they're not two different people. They're not two different. So this is near Brahman Saguna Brahman or one and the same.

[00:56:00]Takquist tells this over and over again.

[00:56:03]And the shi the power that causes the dream to emerge belongs to the dreamer.

[00:56:09]It can't belong to any or to the sleeper who becomes a dreamer. Can't belong to anybody else. Now what does the dream do? It creates a whole universe.

[00:56:20]Now this universe, what is the substance of the universe? It's the consciousness or the cosmic mind. It has no independent physical. We can't explain objects in the dream in terms of evolution in terms of uh uh the different elements and all of that. Now what about the actor in the dream?

[00:56:39]Who is the actor in the dream?

[00:56:44]The actor in the dream is the dreamer and the sleeper. All three are one.

[00:56:50]And when we wake up, we we say I fell asleep. I had a dream. And that dream I did this and I did that same eye.

[00:57:00]So if this is the way it works for an individual this is one explanation. So Swami G says in Maya dreaming all this dream. So we don't like to attribute all of this to the sleeper.

[00:57:14]It has to be the shaki aspect that causes the sleeper to become the dreamer. So this is why tak says that uh what I call divine mother is nothing but vermin. Yeah, Swami G used to argue with Ramaki Krishna. Who is this Kali you keep talking about? Then he used to say I hate this mother colleague of yours.

[00:57:34]He had a very limited view at that time.

[00:57:36]Later of course he becomes a great worshipper mother and Takra would say and don't you know this is nothing that same Brahman what you call Brahman awaki but this aspect of shi is there. So without this aspect of aspect of shaky we can't explain how the sleeper becomes a dreamer and how this this dream world comes into existence.

[00:58:00]Now the dream analogy is not perfect.

[00:58:02]The dream in a dream everything is private. We assume that everyone else experiences this world also. You're all conscious beings. You're watching me.

[00:58:10]I'm watching you. In a dream we don't know. Nobody else is really they're they're just figments of my imagination.

[00:58:17]So it's not not a perfect type of analogy but it's a very helpful way of understanding how this infinite absolute reality which we call the Brahman how it needs this this shi this type of power and that that power will enable it to to dream.

[00:58:36]So the dreamer is un the sleeper is unaffected by all of this.

[00:58:40]So the near ga brahman aspect the unaffected uh well again I have to talk about swami swani he always gave the example of the mother and the woman so there's a woman and she gives birth to a child and now she becomes a mother but does she cease to be a woman that aspect is always there that's the permanent aspect so the taguna near aspect is permanent the ishwa aspect is only there when the creation is there the mother is there only the birth of the child is the cause of the mother is the cause of the child but without the child she's a she's a woman but she's not a mother maybe potentially so this is how astramrishna explains very beautifully uh there's harmony because there are all quarrels among the different philosophical schools near ga brahman alone is the ultimate reality no saguna brahman this is the main difference between these schools of ant that the the dualists they want to say you want to talk about God without these goonas you're missing the the beauty and personality of God the others will say you're you're falsely superimposing all these things it's all your imagination so they have quarrels Christian say you're both right this is this is just different ways of looking at the same phenomenon so this is that uh very helpful I I think uh illustration of the dream. Now one thing very important to note sometimes we have these ideas we hear in in vanta that this world is nothing but my own projection.

[01:00:24]Yeah. Now if we look at this dream analogy is the actor in the dream responsible for the projection of the dream? No.

[01:00:33]He is also a product of the of that projection. it has to go back to the sub Brahman idea. So this it's called subjective idealism. There are a lot of flaws in that idea and uh a little bit self-defeating. Then we have to ask does anybody else really exist? It's uh for me not a very helpful type of doctrine but we we hear about it sometimes that uh everything that I experience I'm experiencing my own mind. it doesn't require any external object there but uh how do I have a mind without a a body and everything and I'm part of the whole dream experience. So anyhow so this is that just that one that one point to make that uh we don't have to boot from all of this that this world is unreal in in any metaphysical sense as Ramachi Krishna he'll always substitute unreal with transitory uh when we read the gospel very very often we'll see illusory and if we go to the original Bengali it's anity transitory I don't know why the to to me it would have been nice if they'd given it more literal thing but takra used to say I don't like to look upon this world as unreal I don't like to look upon it as a dream even though this dream analogy is very helpful but not literally like a dream in my own dream. I'm the only real conscious element of it and everything else is unre tak is unreal because it it's it's transitory and fleeting. A very helpful way of of looking at all of this. So then last verse where seekest thou of for now that that freedom friend nor that can give in books and temples vain thy searchs. Thine only is the hand that holds the rope that drags thee on.

[01:02:29]Then cease lament let go thy handas bold say touch. So another great theme of swami gi don't go running around looking for god in temples and scriptures and and philosophies and all of that. go within.

[01:02:44]go within and we'll find that treasure house is is is hidden within the heart that uh it's there present before us and it's up to us to do it and all we have to do is let go that he says don't curse the darkness remove your hand the light is there you yourself are covering it so again this this idea of responsibility taking responsibility for everything and don't blame this Maya and this ignorance and everything that all we have to do is ourselves to take responsibility and do whatever we can to remove this this veil of maya and this false identification and this ident with this very very fragile and easily bruised ego that we have and take our stand upon the self the unmoving unchanging ing aspect of ourel which is one with that divine consciousness dwelling within as the the witness, the observer, the unchanging real self. And to identify with the real self means not to have these ups and downs. The real self doesn't judge anybody. So that means we have to not we have to stop judging people and ourselves. We have to identify with that. We have to try to be like that.

[01:04:10]We have the analogy of the two birds.

[01:04:13]The lower bird doesn't have to always just go off and merge in the upper bird.

[01:04:17]The lower bird looks at upper bird and says how happy that bird is just majestically observing everything. Let me be like that. We can also try to to do that. Okay. Now I was requested to just very quickly look at the last verse even though we're skipping a lot of other verses that the very last verse was thus day by day till karma's power spent release a soul forever. No more is birth, nor I, nor thou, nor God, nor man. The eye has all become the all is I and bliss. No thou that bold say.

[01:04:58]So this this karma in the sense of ignorance, in the sense of false identification, in this the sense of all the attachments that we have that we have to work all of that out. We have to work all of that out until we can stand on the self till we know our real nature. When we merge in that then we go beyond even the personal god everything else. When we enter when takur enters into that near vikob samati state then there's no knowing no saying no nothing no way to explain it. The taqu says that uh words cannot express it.

[01:05:41]We can we can explain what happens in that state and yet it's not a blank empty state because coming down from that one is in in a state of ecstatic bliss and all of the old karmas are burned up. We talked about this last night. Karmas are burned up. The knots of the heart are untied. All the doubts are gone and one lives in a perfect state of freedom. So that state of nicoti is the closest we can come to understanding of what it means to merge in Brahman.

[01:06:11]Now again there are different schools of thought in the west in India also that there is something called living in the company of God in the presence of God all of that the Gianis will say no we go back into the ocean oneness now who knows maybe they're both right we don't know what happens okay so now we have some time for question answer okay >> yes Is that equal to moa?

[01:06:50]>> Should be our ticket to moka. See moia really means uh not being born again.

[01:06:58]Literally it means that that ultimate type of freedom. uh we have these two terms uh gibban mti and vidti so the mti and moka they mean the same thing type of freedom so if we attain to the state of it's understood that vidti that means once we give up the body that there's no more rebirth but jti that means that uh we live in this world as a free soul we've already attained reached the goal But we still have some karma left. So we live in the world that way. If one attains this near samati state and can come back from that not everyone can come to because in general this near samadi is is our exit is our way out. We won't get that till our karma is spent. But those special souls who can come back from that then they live in the world as a free soul.

[01:07:57]So they've attained both uh Jan Mti and but MTI will come afterwards. Now in the case of the direct disciples and and takur they don't get off the hook because they have to come back again.

[01:08:13]They have a special job to do. But for ordin ordinarily we can say so it's not it's not identical with his ultimate liberation but uh it'll have the transforming power to release us from any type of false identification. If we can come back from that then we're absolutely convinced I have an existence that has nothing to do with this body and mind ab this conviction is 100%. The sunsh is is completely is completely caught gone. Yeah. So uh can we attain to that state of of jti without near?

[01:08:55]Yeah.

[01:08:58]First of all again is a type of speculation but yes we feel one has a any type vision of god any type of that type of experience that uh this can also liberate someone actually according to the upanishads this samati is not even spoken of that this realization is a breakthrough it's not this the samati belongs to this raja yoga doctrine and and where the mind is perfectly still and calm. No vitis and the uh adidic and vantic view is that the mind is fully awake and we have a breakthrough. Uh you've been saying toi say ah yes I am that and now I know I am that ocean of consciousness. So that's absolute liberation freedom without this type of samati.

[01:09:54]So we don't know through the path of devotion takar says one also has the highest realization we have some realization yes divine mother is the ultimate reality I am her child that also can give liberation but again our our ability to understand these things is extremely limited and and we'll get more of this with this idea of maya but this is this is the conclusion that I've drawn I was a philosopher. I studied philosophy as an undergraduate in graduate school. I studied philosopher so many years. And the lesson that I learned from it is that we understand very little about anything.

[01:10:39]And these are all interesting doctrines and helpful. They're not not that they're not helpful, but this is not an exact science and uh very beautiful wonderful ways of looking at this world and trying to understand things. But uh there there's not one that can claim to being ultimate absolute truth.

[01:10:59]Science, mathematics, abstract mathematics, we can we can come pretty close to it. Science a little bit.

[01:11:05]Philosophy. No.

[01:11:10]Uh yes. So lot so there are a lot of questions. Yeah. In front also.

[01:11:14]>> Yeah.

[01:11:16]Yeah. Um so [clears throat] you know this is also our bad bad good good known escape the law >> but uh if you see current and um a lot of times in my life or a lot of times in other people life a lot of people escape the law and uh is there still you can say oh you need patience maybe wait like Gandhi used to say you know nonviolence you have to wait to win. Uh you cannot just win right away. But this philosophy, would you little bit elaborate how things work? If you see, you know, people smarter than you or me or other people, they're ahead of you and win the um those known as kept the law and uh people those you are in corruption, those you are in bribing or a lot of other things. and um they're escaping the law. So how this works in real life actually?

[01:12:20]>> Yes, this is this is a great mystery in life. How sometimes we see the best people we know they suffer from things that we why should a good person have to suffer from this. We we the doctrine of karma can answer everything but we don't have to accept it. They can all always say that yes this suffering is necessary. They had a little bit of karma left. This is their final lifetime. We can we can rationalize everything with the doctrine of karma.

[01:12:50]Otherwise, we can say yes, this world doesn't seem very fair. That we see some people they do everything unethically and they seem to get away with anything.

[01:12:59]Yeah. Yesterday, I was telling somebody that uh there are people they smoke two packs of cigarettes a day and live to be 100 and other they get lung cancer without ever smoking a cigarette in their whole lifetime. Now the the doctrine of karma they can say you don't know past lifetimes and this and that or we can also say that uh I accept this doctrine of karma in terms of the psychological aspect that this is this is what I do that uh everything that we do will leave a mark and we'll do some type of impression and these people who seem to be enjoying the world how happy are they really that also we don't know and one thing I'm convinced of that uh nobody who leads a selfish type of life can really be happy and those who are unselfish people they may not have very much that they can have some level of happiness but to go back to the other point uh do I really believe that everything that happens uh as you say that some people they get every break is because of their past karma my answer to that is I don't know when it comes to this psychological doctrine do I really believe that we ourselves form our own personality and that we forge our our own future in terms of the type of person that we want to be that I fully accept that aspect of of karma the other aspect this praabda and and uh that we don't know and everybody gets what they deserve things it looks looks like people are getting off the hook and getting wonderful things we don't know inner turmoil turmoil and uh are they really happy and we don't know it's very hard to say. So yes, we can definitely question we can question that aspect of the law of of karma. Uh or we can really say that yes, these very good people that uh every last ounce of attachment that they have to the world is is going to leave them through whatever suffering they have to do, whatever bad things they go through that they're going to develop some type of tika, some type of forbearance and everything. This will be an ultimate gift. They'll look back and say this was mother's grace. Swami G has a nice poem called angels unawares that somebody saying how uh how I lived this wonderful life and all joy enjoyment everything possible and everything and then some fall came and this and that and now I bless I bless that fall that I had. I I bless that uh uh superstition that I used to all these different things uh because that takes us higher.

[01:15:37]So our way of judging things also it's very restricted and very limited.

[01:15:43]There's that story how Krishna goes to one house and somebody is wants to get all wonderful gifts and and blesses that person then he goes to the house that uh I was in Kia anyhow some poor woman and she has nothing but one cow and he says let this cow die. So nar said how what I don't get it why you help somebody one who's so attached and the other one he says this was her last attachment to the world who now the cow is gone she'll have that ultimate realization. So how it works also we don't know what's good and what's bad.

[01:16:21]Yeah good will lead to good but c can we judge what's good and what's bad that's also very difficult to say.

[01:16:32]Swami G you spoke about being a witness this morning. So how do we practice that? Is that you do you you do it deliberately so that it becomes natural over time or how do we live through situations looking at it as a witness instead of reacting?

[01:16:53]>> Yeah. Now one one thing uh we have to understand is that this is not the type of spiritual practice that uh will suit everyone.

[01:17:05]This is really for the for for the Ghanianis those following this ghana yoga that they want to constantly uh feel that they're the observer of everything. Now when I'm talking to you part of my mind if you want to look at it that way is is aware that I'm doing it is observing. Now if this observer uh is perfectly free that witness it's perfectly free uh it's not attached to anything uh it doesn't judge anything I gave the example of the mirror earlier then uh and and it's in a state of joy the type of freedom that comes from not being bound by anything then we mimic that taco talks of this adopa that we we try to uh to feel that this is our real nature. So very practically in a very practical practice that uh I will not judge anyone else. I will observe.

[01:18:12]Now now does this mean that I won't see that this person has some very uh negative attitudes this and that? No.

[01:18:20]The mind can can also be very astute. I can very clearly see that this person behaves according to this very Thomasic attitude. Yeah. But I myself as the witness, I won't judge. This is just the way that it is. Whether his mother's will, whether it's the old son's, whatever it is, I'm not going to judge.

[01:18:43]And if if the if this witness is not affected by anything then I won't be affected by things.

[01:18:50]So I'll have to practice that. If the witness is not attached to anything then I even as the mind will try to be unattached to everything. So this is actually part of this vipasana uh meditation and and practice is like that they take it to a great extreme. Now I'm drinking water. I I'm observing myself with the cup. I'm observing myself bringing to my mouth. I'm watching myself. Yeah. It could be them too much.

[01:19:17]Yeah. Uh but for a certain type of practice, they can they can do that.

[01:19:22]Now, for the vast majority of devotees, uh their sense of eye will not be restricted even to this witness. They'll form a relationship with God. So uh this was actually what taper recommended because this lower sense of eye is is endemic. It was very hard to get rid of it. So he says then form a relationship.

[01:19:46]So if I can't think of myself as the witness, I can at least think of myself as a servant of God.

[01:19:53]That means my relationship is with God and cutting this very intimate close relationship I have with external things or that I feel myself to be a child child of God. So my my sense of of relationship with the divine mother is on a spiritual level. Now does it mean I don't have love for my biological mother? No, it doesn't mean that. But that biological mother is connected emotionally but also physically. The physical body comes from her physical body. If I want to think of myself as spirit then I can think of myself a child of the divine mother.

[01:20:35]So the different spiritual attitudes that we take when we sit for meditation.

[01:20:40]Uh there may be sometimes that the mind will will fall into that mood. Now I'm simply observing the mind. Swami G says in the beginning it's good to do that.

[01:20:51]Am I reciting repeating this mantra? No, I'm listening to it. I'm just observing it. Mind itself is doing everything. The observer other times we may may not be in that mood. Let me forget everything.

[01:21:04]Let me only merge the mind in and let let me feel that nothing exists but divine mother within. Taqua dwelling within my heart. I won't have any conception of myself either as as as a child of God witness anything let them I be filled with the divine so these are different attitudes different techniques different approaches you can say so uh I won't say for the guani to remain established in the mood of the witness this is this is the ideal and the goal for the devity we can have different moods at different times sometimes it's easier and Better to feel this relationship with God. So Takra says this stick of ego is there. It's not impossible to get rid of it. It's making the relationship possible because you're on one side and God is on the other side. Utilize that. Utilize that so that that ego itself will eventually vanish.

[01:22:05]Another way of of of achieving that same goal.

[01:22:13]>> [snorts] >> Swami, you mentioned that um hold lightly to your attachments or uh positions and that will work very well for me. And if I hold lightly to my attachments, identification, relationships and everything, um my um suffering will definitely reduce and eventually vanish when I practice more and more.

[01:22:45]>> Um do I still have to pursue enlightenment? Is that the enlightenment?

[01:22:52]Yeah, this is an interesting question that suppose we become perfectly unselfish. Suppose we are perfectly unattached that uh uh we we only live for helping other people that we develop the highest type of compassion and we we see sometimes we see people they don't seem to have any spiritual inclinations but they're they have the highest type of uh humanitarianism if we want to put it that way. They're really humanists that uh helping others becomes kind of their spiritual practice.

[01:23:32]Can they attain to some sense of of illumination? Swami G says in one place yes he says that and he he talks about Buddha and didn't believe in God or soul or anything like that but achieved the highest through his compassion and everything. In general though uh these things are making us the perfect instrument and that uh in in general for most people yes there should be some spiritual practice some spiritual ideal something that we're we're striving for but uh these people who develop this this tremendous goodness and satwic nature and detachment and everything uh can they have this ultimate realization at least the time of death or or not have to go through this suffering again?

[01:24:16]Yeah. Well, quite possible. Uh again, I want to keep stressing that uh these there are no simple answers to these questions that we really don't know. But at the very least that this is this is the greatest aid to having that type of realization. And I may say that those people who develop that type of attitude, they attain to a certain type of freedom in this lifetime because freedom from attachment is also a type of freedom. And freedom from attachment means freedom from worry and anxiety and attaining to the state of Shaagati, the state of taking shelter and refuge and and perfect acceptance. This also takes the whole bundle of of uh of uh worry and anxiety and frustration, everything off of our shoulders. We can experience tremendous freedom. Those who really uh and I've seen people like that. I've seen people that I won't say are God realized souls. They're good people and they're very sincere people.

[01:25:24]I remember one person telling me with tremendous sincerity that I know that whatever happens to me is for my good that mother is doing that for my good.

[01:25:35]Now I is it a god realized person I no other indications but is it someone perfectly free from anxiety and wority?

[01:25:44]Yes. Yes. So that level of freedom is there uh when we can develop that type of of uh conviction and and live it and actually live according to that conviction.

[01:26:04][snorts] >> Maharaj the comment that just now we made you made reminds me of ishwar chandra vidya saga.

[01:26:13]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[01:26:16]>> And the way I at least understood was that Takur was still saying that he was so close to spiritual enlightenment but uh has not reached that that stage.

[01:26:27]>> Yeah, there's a very good example that uh this vidyasara he was he was known to be the most philanthropical and charitable person during his day. He was famous for that that so many people came to him uh widows poor widows would come uh students who couldn't afford to buy their books all whatever it was that he would help everybody so takur met him and they had different conversations and he could see that uh this was a very good person but yet uh he hadn't realized the goal that li lay within his heart that's the way Takra put uh uh be so busy with uh with helping other people that his mind is going to uh was with was going outward not necessarily seeing God in everybody but very good person. So Takqua said the work that he does is perfectly satwick.

[01:27:26]But yet if he knew that the treasure that lay within then he would withdraw a little bit and go deep within and and experience the joy the treasure that that's within himself. So in that particular case uh being a good person now he may have had his attachments and also he may have enjoyed the fact that he was praised by everybody that also we don't know. Yeah, but at least in that case just being a perfectly uh compassionate person helping everybody else uh didn't equate to being a realized soul in that case at least This is nothing to do with the talk Swami G. Oh, that's fine. But what is your inspiration to become a monk? What what was your story? And >> you know I uh well you can say by chance or by fade or by mother's will. uh I I was in India and uh when I was rather young man 23 I went to India and uh I was looking for a book to buy and I happened to see the teachings of Swami Vananda and it was very inexpensive and I didn't have much money in those days so I bought that book and uh I read that book of course before that I was I told you I was in philosophy and I was doing some types of meditation I had already read Gita and was practicing according to that.

[01:29:11]But after reading Swami G then that's what that did it. Swami G grabbed a hold of me. Yeah. Moner Manush I had found the man of my heart. Yeah. So and then from there I went to to Kolkata and I went to Mematis and everything and one thing led to another after that. Yeah.

[01:29:43]Then we we stop now. Okay. Okay.

[01:29:48]Shanty.

[01:30:00]So I planned this very poorly. Somehow I don't know why I thought we would could get through the whole thing, but we only did uh probably less than half or about half of it.