Can God Be Grieved?

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]So, I'd like to hear Mr. Asset and impassibility explain to me how the spirit can be grieved. But we're talking about God.

[00:00:20]John Piper started an interesting topic at a recent panel discussion. Bill. The panel was held at the 2026 Serious Joy Pastor's Conference in Minneapolis. It was hosted by Bethlehem College and Theological Seminary. We're going to look at some of the segments of the video and get your response. Let's go ahead and go to the first clip here.

[00:00:42]Here's what Piper asked theologian Kevin D. Young.

[00:00:46]>> Complete the sentence. quenching the Holy Spirit, grieving the Holy Spirit means, >> okay?

[00:00:51]>> And I want to know what it means for the spirit.

[00:00:55]>> Okay.

[00:00:55]>> Not for me.

[00:00:56]>> Okay.

[00:00:57]>> That's easy.

[00:00:58]>> Yeah.

[00:00:59]>> So, I'd like to hear Mr. Esi and Impassibility explain to me how the spirit can be grieved because that's and I mean, I've got it's not an easy question and I like those words. I mean, I get it. Um, we're talking about God.

[00:01:20]That's God. You're going to grieve God.

[00:01:23]What in the world does that mean?

[00:01:25]>> Well, he's referring to Paul's statements in Ephesians 4:30 and 1 Thessalonians 5:19, for example. Do not grieve or quench the spirit. But, but first, um, he goodnaturedly called the young Mr. Asay and Mr. Impassibilities.

[00:01:42]So, uh, let's take one thing at a time.

[00:01:45]uh do a little refresher here. Refresh God's attribute of assay, Bill. Then we'll get to impassibility a little later in the podcast.

[00:01:54]>> All right. God's assay comes from the Latin aay which means by uh itself and what it conotes is God's selfexistence.

[00:02:08]That is to say God does not depend upon anything else for his existence. uh he is the sole ultimate reality who depends upon nothing and all other reality depends upon God uh for its existence and is therefore contingent and I I think you can see what's coming Bill just from this uh first clip the issue may be to what extent the scriptures use anthropomorphic language uh that is giving God human characteristics that he may not actually have uh at least uh in the way a finite limited human like us would would have them. Uh that's a sneak preview though that's coming up. But before Kevin D. Young answers, I'd like to hear your thoughts on grieving and quenching God, the Holy Spirit. Bill, >> well, it seems to me that what Paul means basically is resisting the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is attempting to draw us to God, to sanctify us, to conform us to the image of Christ. And the person who resists the Holy Spirit is said to grieve or quench the spirit of God. And it seems to me that that is quite a literal notion. I I don't see any difficulty in thinking that we have the ability to resist the Holy Spirit.

[00:03:36]And you know, I think our listeners uh understand that John Piper is is being facitious a little bit here. He's he's not mocking the scriptures, but he's just trying to communicate the potential difficulty of the topic. And he continues with the question in this next clip.

[00:03:56]>> Um, you're going to quench God. You're going to stop God from doing what God wants to do.

[00:04:02]I mean, all all the language we've been using here is we're stopping him. He's got coming with fire and we're putting it out. I think what do you think you are? You can't put out the fire of God.

[00:04:13]All the purposes of God will be established.

[00:04:16]>> So that that's the question for me.

[00:04:18]Yeah.

[00:04:18]>> Much much more difficult question than what do I do to to do it, but rather >> what's it like for him?

[00:04:25]>> Well, my first impression was that uh Piper's Calvinism is showing a little bit here, Bill. And I I think that mullanism comes in strong at this point.

[00:04:33]Uh uh for example, Paul talks about uh his plans being hindered by Satan in 1 Thessalonians 2:18. And then we have the instance of the prince of Persia intercepting God's messenger in Daniel 10, which seems on the surface that God's plans uh were at least interrupted. And um I anticipate that that you would agree with Piper that ultimately God's will prevails. But is there a mullenistic way of speculating how God might deal with obstacles as they occur in the course of his will?

[00:05:11]>> I agree with you, Kevin, that Piper's difficulties here are self-generated.

[00:05:17]They are the result of his Calvinism which thinks of God's grace as irresistible and alldetermining and we do not have libertarian freedom to resist God. And the reason that I think that that is an unbiblical view is because the New Testament uh says that God wants everyone to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 says, "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." And that desire is obviously thwarted. Uh not everyone is saved and comes to the knowledge of the truth. Some people are separated from God forever. So that desire of God is obviously thwarted. On molanism, God works with the free agents decisions in order to bring about his will. But ultimately, God does not impose his will unilaterally upon human agents. He has to work with them to bring about his desires. And in some cases his absolute intentions like universal salvation are thwarted by human beings.

[00:06:39]>> Well, he is asking Kevin D. Young uh to to give an answer to this and he does answer. Let's see if you agree with what he says.

[00:06:48]>> Yeah, I have I have a good answer that John won't like >> because impassibility is really important.

[00:06:58]>> Yeah.

[00:07:00]and understanding how to >> tell them what that means in a sense.

[00:07:05]>> God is never rendered passive and in particular that God as God does not suffer and that God does not experience emotion as we experience emotion. So we know that the we we do not want to reduce the Bible and be afraid of the Bible's effective language relative to God. It's all over the place. And so we have to understand how how do we interpret that language that and I'll get to Bible because I know John wants Bible.

[00:07:39]Westminster confession does have a helpful phrase that that God does not consist of parts or passions. The the language of he doesn't have parts is the attribute of his simplicity. God is not a composition of many parts. that is he he is not you you get justice and mercy and love and you get all of these attributes and you duct tape them together and and there's God because then it would be you take one of those and you no longer have God. God is everything that he has. Every attribute he has he has to the fullest.

[00:08:13]>> Well, we we better stop right there and discuss divine simplicity before we get to what is meant by passions. uh Bill and impassibility. Your view on divine simplicity is prominent in your writings and in these podcasts.

[00:08:27]>> Well, I'm afraid that Kevin D. Young gives a very poor explanation of this alleged attribute. You see, everybody agrees that God is not a composition made up of parts. Um, moreover, everybody agrees that God has his attributes to the maximal degree possible. So, that's not sufficient uh for a robust doctrine of divine simplicity. Um, moreover, it's uncontroversial that God cannot lose any of his essential attributes. So really what D Young has said fails to express what the doctrine of divine simplicity states in its strongest form. Now I think he comes closer when he says that God is his properties. But notice that the real issue then here is not composition but whether there is complexity in God.

[00:09:33]Whether God is a complex being who is not only for example omnipotent but also omniscient and uh morally perfect and eternal and omnipresent and so forth which seem to be clearly distinct uh uh and different properties that's not composition that's complexity. You know, when we first hear that God has no passions, uh, our reaction might be, "Well, of course he does." But we need to explore that. Here's what D. Young says it means.

[00:10:06]>> You cannot rank the attributes of some being essential, some being relative. It doesn't have parts and it doesn't have passions. Not passion in a passion for the supremacy of God. We use that word in a different way. In a 17th century long tradition in western theology and philosophy understands passions to be that which is passive.

[00:10:29]Passions come over you. Affections are different. There's a reason that Jonathan Edwards famous book is religious. Affections not even religious emotions. Some would argue the word emotion as an English word didn't exist until later at the 18th or the beginning of the 19th century because an affection is a motion of the will. So it's it's different than Edward saying you must have these emotions related but different. So God's does not have passions meaning things do not just happen to God. So all of that has some theological balance.

[00:11:03]>> Yeah. So so passions and affections they'll sort that out for us. Let's hear your thoughts. To say that God has passions simply means that God can be affected by us and the things that we do. Um to say that he has passions is not to say that he's passive uh in the sense of being inactive, but it just means that he is um able to be affected by what we do.

[00:11:35]And the classic doctrine of divine simplicity and impassibility denies that God uh has passions in that sense. He is utterly unaffected by anything that we do. Um which is I think a deeply unbiblical idea. The classic doctrine of divine simplicity and passibility in order to defend uh God's not having passions has to state that God does not stand in any real relations with anything else. He does not really love us or know us or will uh certain things rather the only relation that is real is on the other side. We are loved.

[00:12:26]We are known. We are willed. But on God's side, he does not love us. He does not know us. He does not will us because God is utterly unrelated to things outside himself, lest you introduce passions into God. Now, D. Young's definition of affections is, I think, very strange. He says it's just a motion of the will. Well, that makes God like a machine, I think, and not like a person who is genuinely moved by compassion or or anger or joy.

[00:13:06]>> Yeah. And let's continue that and and get into anthropomorphisms some more in this next clip. Here again is Kevin D. Young. The answer which I I think and John maybe finds slightly unsatisfying is that I think there are just as there are anthropomorphisms in scripture which we understand instinctively. God's right arm, God's fiery eyes, burnished bronze. We understand these depictions of God and his majesty. We don't think he actually has hair white as wool. Nothing wrong with that. And eyes of fire. We understand these are anthropomorphisms.

[00:13:47]They are describing God in ways that humans can understand with human bodies.

[00:13:51]So anthropopathisms are describing God with human emotions in ways that we can understand a condescension and accommodation of his language analogous language.

[00:14:07]>> Big topic here, Bill. To what extent does God have these humanlike characteristics? And to what extent is it mere analogy? It seems to me that like you said earlier, God could have some kind of emotional component. We see in the Bible his anger, his patience, his love, his zealousness uh and so on. He desires to gather Jerusalem's uh Jerusalem in his wings.

[00:14:34]But but if you would go ahead and comment on that clip.

[00:14:37]>> Yeah, I agree with you, Kevin. I see no reason at all to think that every ascription of emotions to God is a case of anthropathisms.

[00:14:50]Why would Young adopt a view like that?

[00:14:54]It's certainly not a biblical view. D.

[00:14:57]Young's God is a cold, unfeilling, unmoved being that is not at all like the God of the Bible.

[00:15:08]>> We're going to continue with D. Young's answer and again I want to get your evaluation on what he says. Bill, here's the next clip.

[00:15:15]>> So I would say grieving the Holy Spirit obviously biblical language. I used it yesterday. We should not be afraid to use it. But we should help our people lest we think that we are ultimately forcing we are preventing God from doing what God and his decree has not decreed to do. You know, I I want to briefly stop there, Bill, because I think he's hinting at something that that you addressed on a podcast not long ago, and it involves the pressure or possible uh guilt of, for example, our missing an opportunity to win a particular person to Christ and that person never gets saved as a result. And I'd like to revisit that briefly because uh D.

[00:15:59]Young, I think, was saying that we need to to help people through this notion of preventing God from accomplishing his plans. And again, this is just kind of an an aside, I think, that he drops in on his way to answering the whole question.

[00:16:15]>> Well, I think that what he's talking about, Kevin, frankly, is the Calvinistic doctrine that everything is unilaterally predestined by God. and that therefore we cannot prevent God's will from being done. Uh God uh unilaterally determines everything that happens. And I think that this kind of unilateral uh divine causal determinism is really destructive of uh human freedom and significance.

[00:16:54]>> Let's continue with D. Young's thoughts.

[00:16:56]He goes to 1st Samuel 15.

[00:16:58]>> But the quenching and the grieving is a human way inspired by the spirit to describe just like you say, well, what what's what's a rationale for for thinking this way. 1st Samuel 15 is a great text because in there that Saul should not be made king. And it says that the Lord repented.

[00:17:19]>> He repented of making him king. But it says at the end of that, God is not a man that he should repent or change his mind. And you can't go to the Hebrew and and find your deliverance and say it's a different Hebrew word or same word. Same word. So we we have to say that there's some way in which God repents namely from our vantage point as we see time unfold. He did something. Now he is undoing that thing. And 1st Samuel 15 tells us we must absolutely say there's a way that God cannot repent. And so in the same way I would say we speak of him grieving and let's safeguard that he does not grieve as we grieve does not experience emotion as we experience emotion. These are anthropopathisms.

[00:18:08]>> Okay. Well he he completes his answer by admonishing us to strike a balance with what 1st Samuel 15 teaches. God repents for making Saul the king, but God's regret or re repentance may differ from the way we humans experience that. How how in the world do we work that out?

[00:18:28]>> Well, I discuss these passages in my book, The Only Wise God. Um, and what I show is that when scripture speaks of God's repenting, what it means is that God was pained by what had happened. And that is incompatible with divine impassibility. It means that God is affected by what we do. And these passages, I think, are proof positive of that. But I agree that God does not repent in the sense that he failed to foresee the future and so had regretted what he had done. He knew the future but nevertheless he is pained by human sin and disobedience.

[00:19:16]>> Two more clips to look at and these are from Pastor Piper and here's the first one. I think the most important thing about impassibility is you do never want to say that God is taken over by anything. That's the value of that doctrine in my in my mind. And I think that first Samuel 15 text is exactly the right place to go and that we can put the word grief in there as well as repent. God is grieved. He is not grieved as a man. God is not a man that he should be grieved as Piper is grieved. That's exactly the right thing to say. Then I think it it is helpful to try to say how he is grieved.

[00:19:58]And I don't find it helpful to stop with an anthropomorphisms to just put that name on it and then not leave it corresponding to some reality that you it's totally ineffable. I said that's not helpful. If I'm hearing him right, Bill, he's he's not convinced the description like God's grieving are totally anthropomorphic, uh, but that they in fact may have some kind of reference in God's character that we need to contemplate. Yes, that does seem to be what he's saying, Kevin. But notice then what a weak understanding of impassibility he has. for him it just means that God is not overtaken by anything. But that's perfectly consistent with God's having emotions um loving us being hurt by our sin and intrigence being wrathful when people are victimized. So Piper is expounding a doctrine of uh impassibility which is so weak that it's perfectly consistent with God's having emotions and being grieved.

[00:21:09]>> Here's the final clip. John Piper concludes.

[00:21:13]>> God um disapproves of what Saul has become. He does not like it. He's not obedient. He knew that was going to happen. So to say that he regrets making Saul king does not mean it snuck up on me and I didn't know it was going to happen and I'm looking back with remorse as though I didn't know it was going to happen. So if if you can now say the disapproval was there already and it was so God disapproves of what he's planning. If you can handle that theologically, I think you can talk about some element of of regret or grief in God that doesn't have any of the defects of human grief.

[00:21:58]>> Well, Piper calls for theology that allows for God to disapprove of what he's planning. So, my mind is swirling with Calvinism, Mullenism, and Armenianism. Bill, uh, what's our theology to be that he's calling for?

[00:22:12]Well, I think what Piper says here is very close to what I said a moment ago that uh God has a will that takes into account what human beings will do even if he disapproves of what they'll do.

[00:22:27]The problem is that's not compatible with Calvinism. That's molanism or Armenianism.