Part 1 | Known By Everyone. Understood By No One

[00:00:12]Karis >> Yes.

[00:00:13]>> Is it Karis or Karis?

[00:00:15]>> Uh today you can do Karis.

[00:00:16]>> Karis >> So the tea, you know how you can say give me a glass of water.

[00:00:19]>> Yeah.

[00:00:20]>> Yes.

[00:00:20]>> So this Karis.

[00:00:22]>> Yes.

[00:00:22]>> [laughter] >> I've been thinking about something.

[00:00:25]>> Yes.

[00:00:27]>> As men >> Mhm.

[00:00:28]>> we spend our entire lives being taught how to win.

[00:00:31]>> How to win?

[00:00:32]>> How to win.

[00:00:32]>> Okay.

[00:00:34]>> Nobody nobody teaches us how to hurt.

[00:00:36]>> Mhm.

[00:00:38]>> Nobody teaches us how to grieve.

[00:00:39]>> Mhm.

[00:00:40]>> Nobody teaches us how to be afraid.

[00:00:43]>> Mhm.

[00:00:44]>> And nobody teaches us what to do when the man everyone depends upon >> Mhm.

[00:00:50]>> becomes the man who is falling apart.

[00:00:51]>> Mhm.

[00:00:53]>> And yet when I look around I see successful men everywhere.

[00:01:01]I see CEOs, I see pastors, I see fathers like you, I see providers.

[00:01:08]But I also see something.

[00:01:10]>> Mhm.

[00:01:11]>> Exhaustion.

[00:01:12]>> Mhm.

[00:01:14]>> I see loneliness.

[00:01:15]>> Mhm.

[00:01:17]>> Yeah.

[00:01:18]I see marriages >> Mhm.

[00:01:20]>> living with strangers.

[00:01:21]>> Mhm.

[00:01:23]>> I see children >> Mhm.

[00:01:26]>> who know what their fathers achieved >> Mhm.

[00:01:29]>> but don't know who their fathers really are.

[00:01:33]>> Mhm.

[00:01:35]>> And I wonder have we confused emotional concealment >> Mhm.

[00:01:41]>> with strength?

[00:01:43]>> Mhm.

[00:01:44]>> Have we mistaken silence for maturity?

[00:01:48]>> Mhm.

[00:01:50]>> Have we built an entire generation of men who know how to perform >> Mhm.

[00:01:57]>> but don't know how to be known.

[00:01:59]>> Mhm.

[00:02:01]>> carries >> [laughter] >> Do you recognize this mask? And if you do, when did it did it first appear to you?

[00:02:11]>> And you've you've started us on gear six.

[00:02:14]>> [laughter] >> So, I think these are This represents the vast majority of men.

[00:02:21]>> Mhm.

[00:02:21]>> Unfortunately, and you've broken it down really well.

[00:02:24]I think society or culture has taught us to Most men are not comfortable with who they really are.

[00:02:34]Okay? So, so we try to do things so that those things can be our representation.

[00:02:40]>> Mhm.

[00:02:41]>> And you've talked about people who are very successful out there, but really when you come down to the personal level, >> Mhm.

[00:02:47]>> they are breaking apart.

[00:02:48]>> Mhm.

[00:02:48]>> I mean, if you just go out here just here down the road, meet a random man and you ask him, "Who are you?"

[00:02:53]>> Mhm.

[00:02:54]>> I guarantee you 90% of what they'll tell you is what they do.

[00:02:57]>> Mhm.

[00:02:58]>> They'll tell you, "I'm a I'm a I'm a banker. I'm a CEO."

[00:03:01]>> They'll tell you their profession, not who they really are.

[00:03:03]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:03:04]>> And really, they don't know who they really are.

[00:03:05]>> Mhm.

[00:03:06]>> I mean, if you think about the story of the fall, >> Mhm.

[00:03:08]>> um Adam eats the fruit, and the first thing that happens, he becomes ashamed of himself.

[00:03:14]>> Mhm.

[00:03:15]>> So, what does he do? He covers up.

[00:03:16]>> Mhm.

[00:03:17]>> And I think that has trickled down till today. We cover up who we really are cuz we don't like ourselves.

[00:03:23]>> Do we even really know who we are?

[00:03:25]>> I don't think we do.

[00:03:26]>> Mhm.

[00:03:26]>> I don't think we do.

[00:03:27]>> even know we are covering up?

[00:03:30]>> I don't think we do, actually. That's a really good question.

[00:03:32]>> Yeah.

[00:03:33]>> Yeah, I was I posted something on social media recently. It was a conversation about whether >> uh >> how important is money in marriage.

[00:03:41]>> Mhm.

[00:03:42]>> And someone came and commented and said, "A man A man A man is identified A A man is as good as the money he has."

[00:03:50]>> Mhm.

[00:03:51]>> "If you remove money from the picture, it's like that man is naked.

[00:03:54]>> He's no longer a man.

[00:03:55]>> He's no longer a man.

[00:03:56]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:57]>> So, we use things we own and things that we do to define who we really are, rather than finding our identity.

[00:04:03]And for me, coming from uh the Christian narrative, I believe that the real identity of who we are is in Christ. We find our identities in Christ.

[00:04:12]So, it's not about performing. You don't need to perform. You are You are a man because you are a man and you are made in the image of God. That's what makes you a man. The provision doesn't make you a man. It's good to provide, but that's not what qualifies you to be a man.

[00:04:26]You are a man whether you provide it or provide or not.

[00:04:29]>> You know, you are a man whether you're rich or not.

[00:04:31]>> What is it to be a man?

[00:04:35]>> For me, I usually say the the truest measure of masculinity is in your capacity to love.

[00:04:42]Love your family, love your marriage, love the people God has given you influence over. And this basically comes from the greatest man who I know we both >> share the same sentiments, who is Christ.

[00:04:52]>> When you look at the example of Christ, what is it you remember Christ for mostly?

[00:04:57]It's not in how rich he was or how much inheritance he left. And those things are important, but the legacy he left behind was love and how much he loved the church.

[00:05:06]So, if we look at that expression, that is where we ought to draw our real identity.

[00:05:13]So, a real man, if he has to be measured, if we have to measure, is in his capacity to love. And love is not feeling have It's not having warm, fuzzy feelings. You know, love is being patient, being kind, you know, being sacrificial, offering leadership in a way that is appropriate. So, it's not about how you feel.

[00:05:31]It's a doing word. It's how you express it.

[00:05:34]So, that's how I would put it.

[00:05:36]It's easier said than done, but it is it is possible.

[00:05:39]>> I'm just As you're talking, I'm just a lot of thoughts are coming to my mind and I'm the most profound thing that Jesus did was to lay down his life.

[00:05:51]>> Exactly.

[00:05:52]>> For others.

[00:05:52]>> Yeah.

[00:05:53]>> For the sake of love.

[00:05:55]>> Mhm.

[00:05:56]>> Is that what a man is all about?

[00:05:59]>> I think when >> you can lay down and then not money.

[00:06:05]>> Yes.

[00:06:05]>> You know, you can lay down money, but you don't lay down the man.

[00:06:08]>> Yes.

[00:06:09]>> Eh >> Yes.

[00:06:10]>> Is it that a man can lay down his life >> Yes.

[00:06:15]>> for the sake of his family, his others?

[00:06:18]>> Mhm.

[00:06:19]I think I think that's the best definition.

[00:06:22]And it's it's just to take it deeper.

[00:06:24]It's not it's not the fact that you've laid out your life. It's in what is the motivation behind it.

[00:06:29]>> Correct.

[00:06:30]>> Paul says, "If I offer my body to be burnt >> Mhm.

[00:06:34]>> If you ask me, that's the most the most ultimate level of sacrifice that I can offer my body to be burnt for the sake of another.

[00:06:40]>> But love is not the motivation, then it's for nothing."

[00:06:43]>> Mhm. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's not for sure.

[00:06:45]>> Yes.

[00:06:45]>> Yes.

[00:06:46]>> So, what is it that is motivating you to do that? So, laying down your life, but why? Is it because you want to have a reputation in the eyes of people?

[00:06:54]>> Mhm.

[00:06:54]>> Or is because of the love you have for the person you are doing it for?

[00:06:57]>> Mhm.

[00:06:58]>> So, yeah. Sacrifice.

[00:07:00]>> Mhm.

[00:07:01]Mhm.

[00:07:01]>> But I'm interested in your personal journey.

[00:07:03]>> Yeah.

[00:07:03]>> Because I want to believe there has been a journey to the person that you are today. So, take me back, you know. Uh not the Curtis the husband, not the Curtis the leader, not the Curtis the public figure >> Mhm.

[00:07:17]>> that you are.

[00:07:18]>> Yeah.

[00:07:18]>> But Curtis the boy.

[00:07:20]>> Mhm.

[00:07:20]>> You know, when did you first learn that being a man meant hiding what you felt?

[00:07:29]>> Wow.

[00:07:29]>> Yeah.

[00:07:31]>> [laughter] >> So, >> Because you all have >> Yes. We all have >> this root somewhere.

[00:07:34]>> Yes. We all have somewhere. I mean, I have memories of when I was younger.

[00:07:39]I remember there was this time I was in pre-unit and there was this boy I can't remember how he looks like, but I remember the impact he had, you know, in our interactions at the time.

[00:07:51]So, he'd come to school and, you know, we'd have our little breaks, you know, and he always had the best stuff, you know, he had the sausages and the nyama bites and everything.

[00:08:02]And I didn't have much, you >> There was nyama bite in your time?

[00:08:05]>> [laughter] >> But, at that time it was for people who are, you know, >> Yeah.

[00:08:10]>> So, I remember this day he came with the usual and, you know, everybody's around him, he's asking, "Hey, give me, give me, nipatie." And he would share with everyone except me.

[00:08:21]So, I thought, "Oh, I'll show you how we do this thing."

[00:08:25]So, break time came, he left his bag, went to play, and I decided this is the time I'll show him a lesson.

[00:08:32]So, I ransacked his lunchbox, you know, and just fagia'd everything and closed it back and put it back nicely.

[00:08:40]So, of course, that wasn't a good thing to to do, but I've often thought about that scenario and I've asked myself, "What pushed me to do that?"

[00:08:50]You know, and and I'm realizing there were feelings of I I was not worth it because I didn't have what he had.

[00:08:57]You know, and I think you tend to grow up with those things. And when you're kids, that thing expresses itself in different ways. And even when you grow up, you have situations whereby you are put in a in an experience whereby you feel like because you don't have a certain thing, then you're not good enough. There's a time we met as an alumni group from for for my high school.

[00:09:19]So, different people from different year groups came and they were all sharing what we've become, you know, after high school.

[00:09:25]And someone would say, "Oh, I'm I'm doing this engineering, I'm a lawyer, I'm a doctor." Everyone was saying all those things.

[00:09:33]So, here I am, me I decided to to an artist.

[00:09:36]>> Yes.

[00:09:36]>> So, [laughter] >> I'm hearing engineering, doctors, and I was like I can't just say I'm an artist.

[00:09:43]I told them me I'm I'm an aesthetic engineer.

[00:09:47]>> [laughter] >> I had to sound as serious.

[00:09:50]>> something.

[00:09:51]>> I engineered something.

[00:09:52]>> [laughter] >> So, but later on I confronted why I had to say that and it's basically the feeling of because you are not what society or what people think you should be to be someone. You kind of fabricate or create this persona.

[00:10:06]So, that you cover up who you really are and express this version that you think people need to know.

[00:10:11]So, these experiences like those that you know you begin to ask yourself certain questions and ask you begin to realize why why do I do these things?

[00:10:19]Another example I had is when we were newly married.

[00:10:23]You know, and uh 1 year into our marriage I lost my job.

[00:10:27]I've shared this in multiple forums.

[00:10:29]>> that's a vulnerable moment.

[00:10:31]>> I lost my job.

[00:10:33]And I was like uh we still have a few savings. My wife is working. We'll be fine before I get the next job.

[00:10:39]2 months later she lost her job.

[00:10:41]>> [laughter] >> So, now here we are newlyweds cuz at 1 year you're still a newlywed.

[00:10:47]We are newlyweds. You know, our finances our savings are now you know, they're crashing out.

[00:10:54]And you've been told by society that a woman need to provide.

[00:10:57]You know, so provision becomes part of your identity.

[00:11:01]And it became so bad I started having panic attacks in the middle of the night. At the thought of what am I going to provide tomorrow?

[00:11:10]>> Panic attacks. A lot of men have these panic attacks.

[00:11:13]>> And it's always around provision.

[00:11:15]>> It's around provision.

[00:11:16]>> around provision.

[00:11:17]I'll just wake up in the middle of the night panicking.

[00:11:20]>> Yeah.

[00:11:21]>> Sweating. Sweating cuz I don't know what what I'm going to do.

[00:11:24]>> Yeah.

[00:11:24]>> And for me I would I never got diagnosed. I never went to to see a therapist, but I suspect I had a bit of depression there.

[00:11:31]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. yes.

[00:11:32]>> Cuz I would sit down and I would start imagining myself. What would happen if I just jumped off you know, the balcony you know >> Yeah, you finish this story.

[00:11:42]>> this story cuz cuz for most people we look at ending yourself as a way of escape.

[00:11:48]You know, how can I just escape the pressure of this?

[00:11:51]So, it's those experiences that made me to start confront who am I really?

[00:11:57]Is this money what makes me who I am?

[00:11:59]And that's when God also started showing me that as a man what God has really called me to do or to be especially in the context of marriage is to lead.

[00:12:07]Not really to provide.

[00:12:09]Provision is good and it's important for men to provide, but God has not called me to provide. He has called me to lead, to love.

[00:12:16]Now, obviously if you love you'll provide. You know, there's a saying that usually goes it's it's impo- it's impossible to love and not provide.

[00:12:25]But you can provide >> and not love. That's a good one.

[00:12:28]>> And so God was showing me that what I really want in the background of everything is you having the ability and the capacity to love. And then the provision will come. And that's when I discovered that the biggest thing for me to provide in my family is not even money.

[00:12:43]Cuz you know, most men have been taught Man up and you provide. If you don't provide money you are useless.

[00:12:48]But what I bring to the table is yes, yes, that table conversation.

[00:12:53]But as man as much as money is important there are more important things that you get to provide as a man.

[00:12:59]And that the most important thing for me to provide is me being present.

[00:13:04]Just being present.

[00:13:05]And many men don't know how to be present.

[00:13:08]I know of men who are restless. They cannot spend the entire Saturday at home.

[00:13:13]Because they just feel >> children.

[00:13:14]>> Yeah, they're like, what am I doing? I need to be >> Yes, yes.

[00:13:17]>> out there doing something.

[00:13:19]Yet your presence is what they need the most before even the provision comes.

[00:13:23]So, for me it's it's experiences like those that I get to learn one or two things, and then it builds up on more.

[00:13:28]>> Yeah. And and and you know, I think today we are really tackling an an important thing for men. And there are a lot of men who going to be listening to this. And the issue at heart here is that we really don't express ourselves emotionally.

[00:13:41]>> Yes.

[00:13:41]>> And I want to pick this moment.

[00:13:44]You've just lost your job. Tell me, how did you show up at work at home?

[00:13:49]What sort of conversation were you having with your wife?

[00:13:53]>> So, for me, I would say I'm lucky or I'm blessed to have the wife that I have.

[00:13:57]Because she never put any pressure on me.

[00:13:59]In fact, most pressure that men have is from themselves.

[00:14:02]>> Correct. Especially that. So, how did you show up?

[00:14:06]>> I It was >> [laughter] >> There are things you don't even know how to talk about, and I don't think women know how to handle.

[00:14:17]Even if you start explaining, they won't They may not really understand because they don't understand that kind of pressure.

[00:14:22]So, when you start telling them, "Hey, I'm feeling like I'm panicking or I'm stressed."

[00:14:27]They don't really understand because it's It's not a way >> How did you break the news to her?

[00:14:32]>> So, I just told her, I was like, "Ah, so uh you know, job imesha." And she was like, "Ah, don't worry, you know." So, when his ended, now that's when he started being, you know.

[00:14:42]But she was also >> ended after his ended after what? Two weeks? Two months? Two months?

[00:14:47]>> Two months.

[00:14:48]>> So, here when she's going to work, you're left at home.

[00:14:50]>> I'm left at home. I'm still positive.

[00:14:53]>> You're positive.

[00:14:53]>> You know, two months is a small You know, so I'm sending my CVs.

[00:14:57]>> Yes.

[00:14:58]>> I'm writing business I'm hopeful.

[00:14:59]>> You're You're in honeymoon phase.

[00:15:00]>> I mean, this is Katty. Who can say no to [laughter] to my CV, you know?

[00:15:04]So, you're applying for different things, and then after the third month, that's when you realize, "Eh, kwani >> I'm not that special. [laughter] >> What's going on?" You know?

[00:15:12]It's It's not that I was just home chilling.

[00:15:14]>> Yes.

[00:15:15]>> You're actually trying stuff. And you know, and I think this is what men need to talk about. Sometimes we assume that men who don't have means is because they are lazy or uneducated. There are men who are really working hard but life is life. Sometimes things just don't work out.

[00:15:31]So I think it's that that moment when I now started realizing okay, things are things are thick. Yeah.

[00:15:39]But I love the fact that I could have this conversation with her.

[00:15:41]>> Yeah, and especially that cuz you know two things for me as a man how do I how do I break bad news to my wife without hiding my emotions?

[00:15:58]My true feelings.

[00:16:01]Number two, the struggles the emotional struggles, turmoil, you know that comes after that.

[00:16:11]How do you remain transparent?

[00:16:15]Because you can be there, you are watching, you are laughing and but internally it's turmoil. You get it?

[00:16:22]I'm I'm just curious to know how how did you deal with with the emotional part of it and how transparent were you with her?

[00:16:33]And what worked and what didn't work and what did you learn, you know? Yeah. Cuz there are so many men they actually don't even know what is a starting point.

[00:16:44]With your wife. Their wives actually discover by accident that they actually lost their jobs. Yes.

[00:16:49]>> There's actually a story of a a guy who cuz he married this the woman he married was the kind of woman who believes she cannot be in a marriage >> with a jobless man.

[00:17:01]>> So the guy has lost his job and for an entire month he would leave the house in the morning >> [laughter] >> go gallivant, visit his friends, come back in the evening as though he's from work.

[00:17:11]>> Wearing the mask.

[00:17:11]>> Wearing the mask because he couldn't bear the fact that this woman is going to know I don't have a job. So it's a big deal for a lot of men.

[00:17:19]So for me I would say how I processed processed is processed it was I had a group of men that I was working with and I think that's very important because you know as the scripture says as iron sharpens iron so does a man sharpen another man. I think there's that place where you need men like you to walk the journey with you.

[00:17:38]Men like you who are not going to it's it's important to talk to your wife and you know disclose and be transparent but sometimes you need you know that group of men who are able to hold your hand and just help you process the emotions that you're dealing with.

[00:17:52]As for my wife I mean it was just I think from the way I was brought up sharing difficult things was not really hard for me.

[00:18:04]Yeah and I think it was it was made even easier by the kind of woman that I that she is.

[00:18:10]There was never any judgement. She never looked at me differently.

[00:18:14]Unfortunately this is not the reality for a lot of men out there.

[00:18:18]But I would say if if you are not comfortable to share bad news with your spouse there's a problem in that relationship.

[00:18:27]There's a problem.

[00:18:29]Because marriage has up and down ups and downs. I'm sure that's something you can also just chip in on.

[00:18:34]And you need to be able to feel comfortable to give the bad news just as you would feel when you're giving the good news.

[00:18:41]So >> It's interesting you know there's something I'm very passionate about.

[00:18:47]And I start I practice it practice it at home.

[00:18:52]Um And it's I'm always saying this in front of my children in front of my wife.

[00:19:02]Our home is the safest place that one can ever be and our home is the only place we'll never be judged by performance.

[00:19:13]It's It's something that I have deeply ingrained in them.

[00:19:19]Uh so that when our children go out and they fail, but they feel that they are loved and accepted at home.

[00:19:28]And same to my wife, but also same to me.

[00:19:34]Because >> [cough and clears throat] >> when we make our homes to be a place where we are judged by what we bring on the table, by the grades our children score, then we make it a a competitive and no longer safe space.

[00:19:53]No longer safe. And so you you find two people who are competing rather than Yes. Working working working together.

[00:20:01]And that's why I'm I'm actually a very big proponent against this word that I I hear a lot now in marriages, my partner.

[00:20:12]It is It is not biblical.

[00:20:16]It is not biblical to call your spouse a partner. The moment you, you know, remember life and death is in the words of the is in the power of the tongue.

[00:20:28]The moment you see each other as partners, partners are contractual.

[00:20:33]And contract is performance-based.

[00:20:36]The moment you see yourself as a partner, what happens when the mission fails?

[00:20:43]>> That's That's That's a very interesting perspective because because now I like that. Because when you talk about partnership, now we bring the the conversation of what are you bringing to the table? Correct.

[00:20:58]And sometimes [clears throat] you're in a season where you cannot bring something to the table. Not that you don't want to. It's just the season, you know?

[00:21:04]>> I even call it differently. It's not a season when you cannot bring something you in a season where you someone else needs to cover up for you.

[00:21:12]>> Yes.

[00:21:13]>> [laughter] >> You cover for each other.

[00:21:15]It is the the the the the benefit of marriage is a place you get cover.

[00:21:23]>> Yes.

[00:21:24]>> You can I can cover for you and you can cover for me. You get it?

[00:21:29]So so the moment we bring this language of partnership we lose the essence of marriage which is biblically companionship.

[00:21:40]>> Yes.

[00:21:40]>> Yes. What is companionship?

[00:21:43]>> Think about what's your best your best buddy.

[00:21:46]>> Your best that season of loneliness that season of adversity you did not go to the performance based friends.

[00:21:55]>> Yes.

[00:21:56]>> You went to your friends the people you say these these are my people.

[00:22:02]>> [laughter] >> So if your spouse is not at that level of companionship >> is a problem.

[00:22:11]>> Your your marriage cannot so and I've brought this because [clears throat] I get a lot of questions messages from men who say Piers I lost my job and then I lost my wife.

[00:22:27]And >> As a result of the >> As a result of the first loss yes yes of the first loss. So the wife loss comes after the loss of job.

[00:22:35]And then and they always frame it in a way these women.

[00:22:42]>> [laughter] >> But then when I think deeply about it I realize is this mask we have been wearing that sets us up for this because we are so performance based. We are so we validate ourselves by the then by the time you lose your job >> Yeah.

[00:23:05]>> When you arrive home, you do not feel qualified to be a husband and qualified to be a father.

[00:23:11]>> So, you've disqualified yourself first.

[00:23:14]>> yourself first. Yes. Now, you cannot perform because you're emotionally withdrawn and you are a failure internally. So, the failure manifests physically and from there it's only a natural consequence that uh >> wife >> Yeah.

[00:23:31]>> children they abandon.

[00:23:33]>> Yeah.

[00:23:34]>> But, we men, as priests, >> Mhm.

[00:23:38]>> we have we have It is our responsibility to create an atmosphere of safety and peace in our home.

[00:23:50]Regardless of who we marry.

[00:23:52]That woman who is saying uh >> These women >> The >> [laughter] >> that, you know, her husband is not a husband You have to confront that before these things happen. You have to be the priest and lead her to the truth, illumination that because even she if she sees her man only as a provider, then she cannot experience the deepest intimacy with her man.

[00:24:22]>> Yes.

[00:24:22]>> He will just be a an ATM machine.

[00:24:25]>> [snorts] >> I've actually heard of instances, same thing, whereby a man has been providing the entire time. And then, somehow probably he's gotten to retirement age.

[00:24:35]And he goes home and he has the children cannot connect to him.

[00:24:39]>> Mhm.

[00:24:39]>> There's no because they've never known him in any other way.

[00:24:42]>> It's the only identity he has.

[00:24:44]>> Yes. So, now that he's not providing, they he feels like a bother. Like, why is this guy here? You know?

[00:24:50]So, it's actually it goes deeper. It goes deeper.

[00:24:53]>> That's true.

[00:24:55]>> And >> [clears throat] >> I'm just thinking about growing up because how we show up in marriage also is influenced by how we grew up. What emotions were acceptable at at at home for you?

[00:25:06]>> Uh >> Or not acceptable?

[00:25:10]>> You know, my wife always complains that she's she's not seen me crying as often.

[00:25:15]>> [laughter] >> And it's not intentional, eh? It's not that I decide I'm not going to cry.

[00:25:21]>> Yeah. Crying was forbidden.

[00:25:23]>> [laughter] >> And it wasn't even in the home. It was in the estates I grew up I grew up in, you know, the friends we had in school.

[00:25:32]Like you could not just cry over your over your you'd be called a crybaby. So, you learned very early to just deal with your, you know, internally.

[00:25:41]And I think it works against us.

[00:25:44]Because they say women get over issues very quickly cuz they cry a lot. You know, it's an outlet.

[00:25:50]So, for us we hold things because if you cry, you know, uh Andrew Kibe will come and tell you things that >> [laughter] >> And you don't want to be told those things. So, you cannot, you know, So, >> You have to You have to keep the mask.

[00:26:05]>> You have to keep the [laughter] mask, you know, for the sake of your public public image.

[00:26:10]But I think it's important for men to find outlets. You know, we are not necessarily saying you have to cry every time, but you have to find a way of, you know, just uh processing your emotions in a healthy way. Even if it risks you appearing like you're weak.

[00:26:26]And who cares if you are weak or you appear like you are weak? You know, at the end of the day it What really matters is is it healthy for you to go through that? If it's making you a better person for your family.

[00:26:38]So, yeah.

[00:26:40]>> Do you think most men are protecting their reputation?

[00:26:44]>> Yes. Cuz we've been told that >> Or or they're protecting themselves from rejection?

[00:26:50]Which one is which?

[00:26:51]>> I think it's connected >> Yeah.

[00:26:52]>> Because if you are rejected, that's a dent on your reputation.

[00:26:55]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:26:56]>> And I like how you said the performance thing. If you If you look at how men approach women, you know, you've seen a girl you're interested, you want to get into a relationship, and you approach her.

[00:27:04]>> Mhm.

[00:27:06]>> The first thing we do is we want to approach them not for who we really are, but we approach them with our externalities. I need to dress well.

[00:27:13]>> Mhm.

[00:27:14]>> I need to look like I have money.

[00:27:15]>> Mhm.

[00:27:16]>> I need to have all these external things because this is what will make them accept me.

[00:27:20]>> Mhm.

[00:27:21]>> So, we are already protecting ourselves because we don't feel comfortable if they knew who we really are.

[00:27:26]>> Mhm.

[00:27:26]>> So, we have to cover up and approach them with whatever, you know, we are covering up. So, I think it starts from there.

[00:27:34]And the whole thing of not being vulnerable and not showing who you really are, it's really your reputation. You don't people to say, "Hey, we are like a tall guy."

[00:27:43]You know, so it's your your name.

[00:27:45]Whatever that means, you know.

[00:27:48]So, I think there's there's there's that the reputation and um There's There's something you mentioned, the rejection.

[00:27:56]>> Yes.

[00:27:56]>> And they are all connected.

[00:27:58]>> They are all connected. I'm just thinking um as I finish this this first one. From uh uh starting with the end in mind.

[00:28:07]>> Mhm.

[00:28:10]>> A man who has lived all his life protecting themsel- their reputation or protecting themselves from rejection.

[00:28:17]>> Mhm.

[00:28:18]>> And therefore, they they they deep down inside themselves, they they feel lonely >> Mhm.

[00:28:25]>> and unknown to the very people who are supposed to know them, their wives and their children.

[00:28:32]What would be the thoughts of such a man on his deathbed?

[00:28:35]>> Wow.

[00:28:39]You know, it's it's very interesting because >> that you lived a life >> Yeah.

[00:28:45]>> that you were never yourself authentic self.

[00:28:50]>> I think it's a regret.

[00:28:51]>> Yeah.

[00:28:52]>> It's a regret. And in fact, I would say it's a life that was never fully lived.

[00:28:55]>> Mhm.

[00:28:56]>> I usually tell whenever we are doing these speaking engagements, I usually tell people, when you meet someone >> Mhm.

[00:29:03]>> and you have a past that is not really the best. Which one is better? For you to disclose your past >> Mhm.

[00:29:10]>> and this person rejects you >> Mhm.

[00:29:12]>> for who you really are or where you've come from >> Mhm.

[00:29:15]>> or cover the past and present an idea of yourself that is not necessarily true >> Mhm.

[00:29:21]>> and they accept you >> Mhm.

[00:29:22]>> for the idea.

[00:29:23]>> Mhm.

[00:29:24]>> Which one is best? Do you want someone to accept you for a fake >> Mhm.

[00:29:28]>> persona or reject you for who you really are?

[00:29:30]>> Mhm.

[00:29:31]>> You know, if they accept you for this fake persona, you'll always have that guilty conscience of feeling, "What >> Mhm.

[00:29:37]>> if they find out one day?"

[00:29:38]>> Mhm.

[00:29:39]>> So, you are not even really enjoying yourself in that marriage cuz you're always hiding.

[00:29:43]>> Mhm.

[00:29:43]>> You know, but if you're rejected for the truth >> Mhm.

[00:29:46]>> in as much as the rejection in a market you are confident to know, you know, "This is who I really am. I'm not hiding >> Mhm.

[00:29:53]>> from anyone."

[00:29:54]>> Mhm.

[00:29:54]>> And when I talk about the deathbed, it's interesting that whenever we are doing funerals and people come and give testimonies about the person who has just departed.

[00:30:04]You'll notice that they are always sharing things that are personal.

[00:30:08]Someone can be really rich, but I've never heard in a funeral people going and saying, "Wow, this guy had five apartments, you know?

[00:30:15]>> Mhm.

[00:30:16]>> He was he was he had he had like three Range Rovers." Like, those are not the things people talk about. They always talk about how he loved the family or how he took care of of of certain people. So, it always goes down to not the performance and what you have acquired >> Mhm.

[00:30:32]>> but who you really are and the impact you've had at for people at personal level.

[00:30:36]>> Mhm.

[00:30:37]>> So, I would say the the the the the confidence or the satisfaction of knowing you lived an authentic life should be bigger >> Yeah.

[00:30:45]>> than the fear >> Yeah.

[00:30:47]>> of what if people reject you.

[00:30:48]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:49]And I think it's also the foundation of Christianity.

[00:30:52]>> Mhm.

[00:30:52]>> That Christ loved us while we were still sinners.

[00:30:55]>> Yeah.

[00:30:56]>> I don't think >> We didn't earn it.

[00:30:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's anything as profound in life like to know that I am loved and accepted for who I truly I am.

[00:31:10]>> Yeah.

[00:31:10]>> My flaws, my weaknesses, you know.

[00:31:13]>> I didn't have to change fast.

[00:31:14]>> I didn't as in >> Yeah.

[00:31:16]>> These guys, despite knowing everything about me, they still love me. I think that is a life well lived.

[00:31:24]>> Yeah.

[00:31:24]>> And for us men, that's the risk.

[00:31:28]>> Mhm.

[00:31:29]>> That when we put on the mask Yeah.

[00:31:33]>> Mhm.

[00:31:33]>> for the wrong reasons.

[00:31:35]That we might actually live a life that we were we were completely unknown.

[00:31:40]>> Mhm.

[00:31:41]>> And we were hiding and we were fake.

[00:31:43]>> Imagine.

[00:31:44]>> [laughter] >> For the entire life.

[00:31:46]>> An entire life.

[00:31:47]But let's get to the cost of looking strong.

[00:31:51]You know.

[00:31:52]There must be truly a cost of looking of looking strong, yeah?

[00:31:56]Um and and and and and and I'm saying this because I believe every mask has a price.

[00:32:02]You know. And that guy who comes and uh presents a different picture of who they are.

[00:32:11]Uh you know, not and concealing their past. I don't know whether that is the way I should put it.

[00:32:20]And lives this life with this person.

[00:32:24]Uh even if it's 10, 20 years, but knowing Uh there must be a price.

[00:32:33]You know.

[00:32:34]I believe you there's a level of intimacy you can't get to if you're hiding stuff.

[00:32:39]>> I agree. That's a good one.

[00:32:40]>> You can't get to. So, >> And and and you know, men don't talk about intimacy. By the way, what is intimacy? You know, for for us it can be confused.

[00:32:49]>> [laughter] >> What is intimacy?

[00:32:50]>> say intimacy is to put it in the most simplest way, intimacy is oneness.

[00:32:56]>> Oneness.

[00:32:57]>> Not closeness.

[00:32:58]>> Yes.

[00:32:58]>> Oneness.

[00:32:59]>> Oneness.

[00:32:59]>> Just being one with this person, knowing you have the same mind, the same heart, the same intent the same vision, the same purpose.

[00:33:07]And intimacy is is is acquired over time. It's it's something you build.

[00:33:12]You know, it's you cannot fake it.

[00:33:14]You know, you cannot perform it. It's it's either there or it's not there.

[00:33:19]And the best form of intimacy is found when you guys are completely open and sincere with one another. Nobody is trying to cover up.

[00:33:27]And here's the thing, usually my wife and I usually say that you are you have a spouse here who is cheating.

[00:33:36]And the other one may not know that this one is cheating. No, no, he I'm I'm one of the most I'm the most honest spouse.

[00:33:44]But the marriage knows. You know, marriage is an institution, it's a divine institution. So, your spouse might not know what you're doing, but the marriage as a living organism will know.

[00:33:54]And because of that, there are things that are not going to work right because you the one who is you know what you're doing, there are things that are hindered from you. You cannot express certain things because the nature of marriage is prohibiting you from going to an extra extent. So, you can perform all you want, but eventually we're going to see certain cracks, you know?

[00:34:14]So, we cannot avoid, you know, intimacy in the truest sense of the word.

[00:34:22]>> Have you ever pretended in one way or the other? And did it cost you something.

[00:34:34]>> Yes. Yes, I mean so There was a time Um I was dealing with my own things, you know.

[00:34:45]Your own frustrations as a man there are things you're trying out it's not working.

[00:34:50]And unfortunately usually bears the brunt of that, you know, the person closest to you who is your spouse.

[00:34:56]So you're here you're lashing out, you're talking badly, you're being called and but you're not telling them what the issue really is.

[00:35:05]So What happens is that it begins to interfere even with the communication that you're having.

[00:35:10]>> This was between you and your wife?

[00:35:11]>> Yes, me and my wife.

[00:35:12]>> So there was a misunderstanding somewhere.

[00:35:16]>> There's a misunderstanding it's one of those things where you think ah she will not understand even if I explain it to her. So you want to deal with it yourself.

[00:35:23]>> Internally.

[00:35:23]>> Internally.

[00:35:24]>> Internally.

[00:35:25]>> But as you're trying to deal with it it's messing up in so many other areas, you know, so At the end of the day it's interfering and perhaps maybe she had the solution for your problem.

[00:35:35]But because you have this pride that me man me me man me I have to sort out my stuff by myself, you know. So I mean I think the the price for for that acting tough and you know covering up Number one it messes up with communication and it messes up with you just being one with this person. Because I've also noticed that oneness >> I want to I want to just understand without getting into the details you may or may not want to reveal but There is a misunderstanding.

[00:36:06]Were you emotionally hurt?

[00:36:08]Okay or you know and uh Were you experiencing a challenge to be emotionally vulnerable to express your emotions and frustrations concerning this matter?

[00:36:21]And you are now you are pretending to be okay but you're not okay. Is that the >> So yeah >> Or was that the issue?

[00:36:27]>> No, I can actually just share a quote.

[00:36:28]>> Yes, yes, yes.

[00:36:30]Cuz I I just want everyone to benefit.

[00:36:33]Yes, yes, yes.

[00:36:34]>> So, it's one of those things where you want to make a decision, but you are afraid your wife will say no. Because in marriage we we believe in consulting. I mean, you guys are >> Yes, yes, yes. You are one.

[00:36:44]>> So, you want to make a decision, but the last time you brought up this conversation, she was not so much for it.

[00:36:50]>> She was not sold for it.

[00:36:51]>> But you you are you are personally you know you are convinced. You want to do this thing. So, you go and do it and it backfires. And you can't come back and say, you know, that thing you said you shouldn't >> So, you went and did it.

[00:37:02]>> Yeah, you went and do it.

[00:37:03]>> By your own by your own accord.

[00:37:05]>> Cuz I'm the leader.

[00:37:06]>> You are the leader.

[00:37:08]You will report later.

[00:37:09]>> We'll report later. You know.

[00:37:10]>> [laughter] >> So, you go make a decision and in fact it was financial, you know.

[00:37:15]And I was like, ah, this thing it's going to bring back money and then I'll prove to her that I knew what I was doing.

[00:37:21]>> Yes.

[00:37:21]>> And then it goes and flops.

[00:37:22]>> Yep.

[00:37:23]>> And now you're back and in a coma and you also can't go and tell her, you know, I did that thing you were not >> [laughter] >> So, it's here you >> So, shame.

[00:37:34]>> Yes, there's a shame of Aliniambia, but you know, and >> And then there's there's a pride also.

[00:37:40]>> There's there's a pride. I can't show her that that I'm affected, you know.

[00:37:45]So, it's all these things just working and playing together, but eventually you just have to know that this person is on your side.

[00:37:52]>> Yes, yes.

[00:37:53]>> in as much as it wasn't the right thing to >> Yes, yes, yes.

[00:37:55]>> At the end of the day they are on your side.

[00:37:57]>> Yeah.

[00:37:58]So, and that's a good one because a lot of men >> Yeah.

[00:38:02]>> we find ourselves there.

[00:38:05]Where we make a decision >> Yeah.

[00:38:07]>> without consulting, but we know we should have consulted. And by the way, it is almost guaranteed when uh when when when the woman says this is not a good I have a feeling this is not okay.

[00:38:22]Somehow it never works, eh?

[00:38:24]>> [laughter] >> It never works. I think Proverbs 18:22 is is real, you know. He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains you get out of >> Yeah.

[00:38:32]>> the realm of error.

[00:38:35]>> That's true.

[00:38:35]>> So so I'm I'm I'm interested to know is how did how did your relationship suffer?

[00:38:43]Because of it. And how did you Did you come clean?

[00:38:46]>> Yeah.

[00:38:47]>> And how did you deal with it? Cuz there are many people who are there.

[00:38:50]>> Yeah.

[00:38:51]So yeah it it bothered me for a while and here's the funny thing.

[00:38:55]>> How long?

[00:38:56]>> Sometimes a couple of days.

[00:38:58]>> A couple of days.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah we we try not to stretch things for too long.

[00:39:01]>> Tossing and turning.

[00:39:04]>> So it's it's it's interesting because when you're going through that guilt of hiding there's there's you see and I like that you quoted Proverbs.

[00:39:17]When God says if you find a wife who who he that finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor. Favor manifests in many ways, you know. And sometimes the solution to that problem is in your wife.

[00:39:28]And it's not even that she's going to give you a piece of advice and then you know ah now it's it's just how she carries you and and even the >> her blessings >> her blessings and and you knowing that hey despite me making a silly decision I'm I'm accepted here.

[00:39:43]So it bothered me for a while.

[00:39:45]Uh you know the guilt of I was told I didn't listen. Now I have to come and confirm that indeed she was right and how I can do you know the whole the whole thing we're talking about pride and all that.

[00:39:58]So after a couple of days I just went and confessed and I said you know that thing that we talked about even do me under and it wasn't really good.

[00:40:10]And she was like ah you too.

[00:40:12]Like to her it wasn't a big deal.

[00:40:14]She was like okay you should have listened but you know it wasn't really that much of a big deal. And you begin to realize that a lot of pressure we put is, you know, guilt puts pressure on yourself.

[00:40:24]>> Yes.

[00:40:25]>> even the other person pointing the finger at you.

[00:40:27]>> Yeah.

[00:40:27]>> You know, it begins to eat you up internally. So, I think if you've made a mistake, just own up.

[00:40:33]>> Mhm.

[00:40:33]>> I mean, that's another uh >> lesson >> lesson and true expression of masculinity. Do you have the capacity to actually take responsibility when you make a mistake?

[00:40:41]>> Mhm.

[00:40:42]>> Because being a man is not about being perfect. It's about recognizing that I made a mistake here and I need to take responsibility for it.

[00:40:49]So, yeah, there's no work around.

[00:40:52]You just have to, you know, yeah.

[00:40:55]>> And and and and it brings uh into perspective the the reason we find ourselves in this fix is is also because we we avoid conversations that should actually happen.

[00:41:08]>> Yes.

[00:41:09]Yes.

[00:41:09]>> And I think that's where also intimacy is affected because uh we are not walking as one.

[00:41:16]Uh the Bible says that unless two people agree, they cannot walk together. So, we in that situation, there were some critical conversations that did not happen for a couple of days. It's one of the costs, yes.

[00:41:30]>> Uh I realized a lot of us, there are conversations we ought to have even before starting the union.

[00:41:35]>> Yes.

[00:41:35]>> But we just assume.

[00:41:36]>> Yes.

[00:41:37]>> You know, things like responsibilities in the house. We just assume she's a woman, she's going to be cooking. She's going to take up the kitchen.

[00:41:44]You know, she assumes you are a man, you're just going to be providing.

[00:41:47]Because that's what we've seen in the past. But as obvious as this some of these things may appear, the conversation is really important.

[00:41:54]Because there are seasons that will come and you as a man, you are not able to provide or she's not able to take care of the house domestic matters as you thought she would.

[00:42:03]And since the conversation didn't happen, it becomes an issue.

[00:42:07]Start saying, "What kind of a woman are you? What kind of a man are you?"

[00:42:10]But if the conversations were had, you become more graceful about it.

[00:42:14]There's There's a story of um my wife was sharing with some ladies about um this woman who unfortunately had um a bad experience. She was She was uh sexually violated when she was younger.

[00:42:28]But she's never told her husband.

[00:42:30]Even when they were dating, she never brought it up.

[00:42:33]So one day her husband is, you know, they're they're about to start that that good journey.

[00:42:39]And she he's trying to handle in a certain way, and she just reacts.

[00:42:45]She reacts. She throws a tantrum. It became an entire thing.

[00:42:49]And the guy is wondering, "Where is all this coming from?" You know? So it's later on after some therapy, that's when she said, "You know, I went through this experience when I was younger, and I've never really dealt with that thing."

[00:43:01]And you see, if that conversation was hard, even the husband would have been more gracious in how she he's handling it.

[00:43:08]You know, he would have been able [snorts] to know how to tackle a few things here and there. So conversations are really important, especially those that are uncomfortable, those ones that we tend to avoid.

[00:43:18]Yeah. If you feel there's something we shouldn't we don't want to talk about, that is the one you need to talk about, cuz that's the one that will bring issues later.

[00:43:25]>> So one of the cost is intimacy because of conversations that are not had. Then Then there's also the the energy it takes to maintain that image, "I'm okay." But internally, you're not you're not okay.

[00:43:38]Uh how was it for you for those few days?

[00:43:42]>> It It's It's really silly. You know, right now I'm thinking about it in hindsight, [laughter] and it's it's it's immature because even things you used to enjoy together, now you can't enjoy because in a coma, you know?

[00:43:56]You know, you you go to bed, and you don't even want to your bodies to touch.

[00:44:00]>> [laughter] >> Because you don't Yeah, you know, there's something eating you. So it it really costs a lot.

[00:44:08]>> Yeah.

[00:44:09]>> Yeah. Did anyone else notice that you were struggling?

[00:44:14]>> Uh not [clears throat] really, because I think because I didn't allow it to stretch for so long. Yeah, so >> Okay. [clears throat] Okay. Okay. And and you know, this is a very interesting conversation because you know, I think we have to agree as men, we are good at performing.

[00:44:29]>> Yes.

[00:44:32]>> And on the other side, there's the vulnerability part of it, which makes us to be [clears throat] authentic self.

[00:44:39]Uh how do you rate yourself? Uh Are you good at performing? Are you good How good are you at putting on that mask and performing and I'm the man?

[00:44:50]>> Well, I think I'm I'm pretty good at it.

[00:44:53]And like you said, >> [cough and clears throat] >> it's I think because of how men are raised.

[00:44:57]You learn very early to perform.

[00:44:58]>> Yeah. Even unknowingly.

[00:45:00]>> Yes, even unknowingly. And even it starts even with school. We go to school so that you perform.

[00:45:06]You know, so I learned it really early, but what is happening of late in the past few years that I'm beginning to be conscious of it. And I think when you are conscious, now you can, you know, you can grab it and say, "No, I'm not going to do it." Yeah. So, I would say there are moments I find myself drifting towards performance and I have to bring myself back and say, "No, I'm actually going to be vulnerable because I know this person is on my corner. We are on the same team."

[00:45:30]And and things like that. So, I would say it's it's it's a battle.

[00:45:34]Sometimes you feel one side growing stronger than the other, but when you are conscious of it, you are able to catch it before it becomes, you know, a whole other thing.

[00:45:44]I'm thinking in the context of successful people.

[00:45:48]Um because you know, success comes with a whole facade around it, you know.

[00:45:54]Uh do you think many successful men are exhausted?

[00:46:00]And not because leadership itself is hard, but because the image maintenance.

[00:46:09]I'm the chairman, I'm the CEO, I'm the I'm the pastor.

[00:46:14]The archbishop, [clears throat] I'm the I am not supposed to be having these problems. Yeah, but they are struggling in their marriage, they're struggling in their finances, they're struggling, but they have they've put this perfect image.

[00:46:29]>> Our question is really deep because you've just asked it and I've realized true exhaustion is not physical.

[00:46:36]So, what is happening here?

[00:46:37]>> Yes, yes, the energy to maintain that image.

[00:46:40]>> Yes. Yeah. Cuz physical exhaustion, you just go to bed and in the morning you wake up and you're fine. The body has reset.

[00:46:47]But there's an exhaustion that you can never seem to get rid of. Every day you go for therapy, you go for vacation, you go for whatever, you are just fatigued.

[00:46:56]And I think it's it's it's by design. We are not meant to carry the weight of, you know, having to put a face in front of so many people.

[00:47:05]And that's what makes us exhausted. Um I would really like to to know your perspective of that question, especially how you framed it in the context of people who are successful, you know. Uh in the different people you've in the different people you've dealt with and even in your own life, how does that look like?

[00:47:27]Because there's also the pressure of you have to look strong for your team.

[00:47:31]You know, you can't be breaking down in front of your team cuz you know, we've been told your team is dependent on the strength you show.

[00:47:38]So, you feel like I cannot lower this standard.

[00:47:41]So, how has it looked like for for you?

[00:47:45]>> I I think there are different contexts around it. Um There is a family context, there's a business context.

[00:47:54]Um And when this image is tested, is actually when you are going through adversity.

[00:48:00]>> Mhm.

[00:48:01]>> Uh and when people say that leadership is lonely >> Mhm.

[00:48:05]>> I don't think they even say it especially during normal times. They say it in the context of facing >> Mhm.

[00:48:12]>> obstacles and and challenges.

[00:48:15]And uh everybody around you is looking up to you.

[00:48:20]>> Mhm.

[00:48:21]>> But uh you you you also are a human being who needs who needs a I remember something very interesting happening when I was grieving my late wife.

[00:48:32]>> Mhm.

[00:48:34]>> I noticed that how I was mourning I or rather everybody was reflecting how I was mourning.

[00:48:44]>> Mhm.

[00:48:47]>> I was supposed to mourn privately, quietly uh my own.

[00:48:52]>> Mhm.

[00:48:53]>> But then I realized, oh my God, I'm the orchestra of this thing.

[00:48:58]>> So it's like they were mimicking how you >> mimicking me. Everybody is reflecting my energy.

[00:49:03]>> Oh.

[00:49:04]>> You get? And that's that weight of responsibility >> Yeah.

[00:49:09]>> uh is very high. First of all, as a father >> Yeah.

[00:49:12]>> as a husband who has lost a spouse and now also as a business leader >> Mhm.

[00:49:20]>> everybody was mimicking me, you know?

[00:49:24]And and >> Mhm.

[00:49:25]>> And and I I will never forget the weight of that responsibility because then I had to to make a decision, where do I take this mourning?

[00:49:32]>> Yeah.

[00:49:34]>> Where do I take this grieving?

[00:49:35]>> Yeah.

[00:49:36]>> How do I channel it?

[00:49:37]>> Yeah.

[00:49:39]>> And uh with my children I decided to be vulnerable with them.

[00:49:46]>> Mhm.

[00:49:47]>> And I I can't remember hiding anything from them. From breaking the news to them I remember me with my three sons. The girls were One was just a newly born, the other one was barely knew herself. So, the people had to really break the news to uh the boys who were 6 years and above.

[00:50:10]And they they cried and I remember even myself crying and we were crying together.

[00:50:17]>> Wow.

[00:50:18]>> You know.

[00:50:21]Then I also made a decision.

[00:50:25]They were They were all in their bedrooms. I brought them into my bedroom. Now I was alone in this big bedroom. So, we used to sleep like four of us on you know in on one bed and then my eldest boy would sleep on a mattress.

[00:50:39]But we had to be in one room. It was a moment of gathering.

[00:50:44]And you know what? We did this for 6 months.

[00:50:47]For 6 good months.

[00:50:50]I It's not like a decision that I made you to be 6 months, but I wanted us to mourn together. I wanted us to grieve together and it it played a very huge role in our healing as a family and our grieving as a family because there were many nights I would be we would be going to bed and I would find like my firstborn son crying.

[00:51:12]>> Wow.

[00:51:13]>> If she was in he was in his bedroom, I would not have noticed.

[00:51:18]And I'd be there for him. Now, this is not a time to be strong is about to be emotionally available to them.

[00:51:25]There are many nights I was sleeping and I would just see a shadow walking in darkness and my secondborn son would just come to my side of the bed and hug me and tell me, "Dad, I love you." And that was his way of supporting me. So, they were also my support system.

[00:51:44]If I you know, I with the cuz the the the the the dilemma in many people's lips were was how will this man survive with five kids?

[00:51:55]>> Yeah.

[00:51:56]And they are all young.

[00:51:57]>> And they are all young. All of them were were below 10 years.

[00:52:01]The reality in inside that morning was having a big family is actually what helped me.

[00:52:10]Because we shared.

[00:52:13]We shared. We were together. We this this big nasty thing that had happened to us it was across now we were sharing. We were carrying it together.

[00:52:24]>> it was distributed >> was distributed. And I was imagine if it was just me and maybe one child we would have been looking at each other like what just happened to us? It would have would have been depressed. But there was no time to be depressed because there was so much >> [snorts] >> uh going on including raising up a new a new a new born. So So So that was >> Do you feel like it also made you closer?

[00:52:50]>> Very close.

[00:52:51]In fact, you move from being a dad to to a special dad.

[00:52:55]>> Wow.

[00:52:56]>> To a special dad.

[00:52:58]It's something that binds you together for for a long time.

[00:53:01]Forever.

[00:53:02]Forever.

[00:53:03]Uh in the business and office setup uh I remember coming back and you were actually about to to do our first shoot.

[00:53:14]And I got a brief of what we were supposed to shoot. It was we were supposed to shoot as if nothing happened.

[00:53:23]And I remember telling the team, you know I feel something is terribly wrong if we do this they like nothing happened.

[00:53:31]And uh that's how we made a decision.

[00:53:33]You know what?

[00:53:35]Let's let's talk about grieving.

[00:53:38]And that's the day I spoke about >> [snorts] >> uh what happens when the breadwinner >> Mhm. goes? Uh, what what would happen if a spouse remarries? You know, what what happens when they are they are lessons about money, uh, family and finances that I would never have learned in any other season other than that season. Yeah.

[00:54:01]>> Going through it, not in a classroom.

[00:54:04]>> And, uh, uh, that's also the time I did CTA.

[00:54:10]And I spoke about my life and the life that I had lived with my late wife very extensively.

[00:54:16]And I remember this a customer who was had been looking for me from diaspora.

[00:54:21]They were really wanted to speak to me because they wanted to make some important decisions financially.

[00:54:28]After they watched, they sent me a message and they said, "Pius, I no longer need to meet you.

[00:54:33]All my questions were answered."

[00:54:35]>> Wow.

[00:54:35]>> It had nothing to do with business per se. It had everything to do with me as >> another person >> as a person. What am What do I believe in? What are my value system? Yes.

[00:54:48]And like, "Wow."

[00:54:50]So, a very, um, seizing a vulnerable moment and being authentic uh, did not make me a a lesser person.

[00:55:02]Did not make me a lesser man. Did not make me a weaker man. It actually brought uh, uh, it showed me as a as a strong man. And to my family, too.

[00:55:14]>> Would you say those difficult moments it's like they've been engineered by God perhaps as a way of >> shaping us.

[00:55:24]>> Shaping you and developing you.

[00:55:26]>> Yes.

[00:55:26]>> And making you to be the person you actually supposed to be.

[00:55:29]>> Without a doubt.

[00:55:29]>> Because you can imagine how many lives you've touched because of going through that.

[00:55:33]>> Without a doubt.

[00:55:35]Um, our stories never be written and can never be life transforming for others if you remove the adversities and the the lows in our lives.

[00:55:49]So when we when we go through those moments and we keep it to ourselves and we hide it within ourselves, we actually steal from a generation >> Yes.

[00:56:05]>> the impact that you would have had by telling our own stories.

[00:56:11]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:12]Yeah.

[00:56:13]Have there been seasons where your achievements were growing while your soul was shrinking?

[00:56:23]>> Yes.

[00:56:25]It started it it lasted really shortly though.

[00:56:28]Yes. So, you know, I mentioned that I'm an artist.

[00:56:31]So, at that time I was really, you know, I was fired up about opening up this art gallery.

[00:56:37]So it's something I'd wanted to do for a really long time.

[00:56:42]So, my wife had this it's the period when my wife So, you know, I I mentioned about how I lost my job, my wife lost her job. So, she got her job another job before I got mine.

[00:56:54]So, during that time I said, "Let me pursue this art thing, you know, it's something I've been wanting to do for a long time." So, I opened a gallery exhibition.

[00:57:02]And that second job my wife got, she also had to quit it in probably almost close to a year.

[00:57:09]>> Yeah, she she was going through some health issues and she just couldn't handle the stress of the job.

[00:57:14]>> your bouncing back was the gallery.

[00:57:16]>> So, my bouncing back was the gallery.

[00:57:18]Actually, what happened is that at that time we've just we had just suffered a miscarriage. The third one actually.

[00:57:25]And you know, yeah, and you know, men grieve differently. So, my way of grieving is let me do something that I really love.

[00:57:31]>> Yes.

[00:57:32]>> And it works.

[00:57:32]>> Yes.

[00:57:33]>> So, when she resigned from that job because we suspected that the pressure she was getting from that job also also contributing to to those miscarriages we are having.

[00:57:43]So, she got some benefits from you know, you resign and you're given the benefits of how many months you've worked there.

[00:57:51]So, I take the benefits and I say, "Trust me."

[00:57:54]>> [laughter] >> Let me put this thing in this gallery and we are going to build something, you know.

[00:58:01]And it picked up for the first two, three months and then dipped.

[00:58:06]>> Yes.

[00:58:07]>> So, that time it was picking up. You see me, I'm trying to cover up the grieving.

[00:58:10]>> Mhm.

[00:58:11]>> I'm not really tackling the grieving.

[00:58:12]So, let me shift my focus to something that is working.

[00:58:16]So, I'm not dealing with the grieving, but I'm trying to do something to mask this pain that I'm feeling here.

[00:58:22]And then it collapses. So, I was still forced to go back and deal with that thing. But now here we have two losses.

[00:58:29]We have the loss that I was trying to cover up.

[00:58:31]And this new one that I was using as a cover up.

[00:58:34]So, it it it was a period when you know, you know deep inside there's something that you need to deal with, but you're covering up. You know, you're struggling. And yet you have this semblance of success for the moment that it lasted.

[00:58:47]But I would say life really flows from within.

[00:58:52]It doesn't matter how good you appear out here. If inside you are not really okay, eventually it seeps over to to what you're actually doing.

[00:59:00]So, we eventually just had to or rather personally something that I just had to deal with and you know, just look for an avenue to >> to grieve.

[00:59:08]>> Yeah, to grieve.

[00:59:09]>> To grieve.

[00:59:10]>> Yeah.

[00:59:10]>> So, what happened to the gallery?

[00:59:12]>> Uh it closed.

[00:59:14]>> [laughter] >> Shut down. I got into rent arrears and you know, things like that.

[00:59:18]>> I was like, >> [sighs and gasps] >> But it's [clears throat] also funny because God is good cuz I'd gotten a dream about that thing. Don't go. Mhm.

[00:59:27]But I was just like, "Ah, no, these are just my insecurities. Let me go."

[00:59:30]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:59:31]>> So, I'm also dealing with the fact that God warned me. And so, yeah. So, yeah, you know, the guilt of that is also eating you up.

[00:59:37]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:59:39]>> So, eventually it closed. Um it's a dream that is still there. It will happen one day.

[00:59:44]But it's it's it's just the way we I was trying to approach it at that time wasn't really the >> Yes. It wasn't the right time.

[00:59:51]>> the right time.

[00:59:51]>> the right time. What lessons did you learn from that?

[00:59:54]>> Uh deal with one thing at a time.

[00:59:58]>> Mhm.

[00:59:59]>> Yeah. I think sometimes when you have And we talk about men having the ability to compartmentalize things, whereby if one area And they say men have boxes. I don't know if you heard that before.

[01:00:10]>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[01:00:11]>> We have the business business box. We have the family box. We have the investment box. You are able to Mhm. Think about each thing.

[01:00:19]>> box at a time.

[01:00:19]>> One box at a at a time. Women, everything is connected.

[01:00:22]>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[01:00:23]>> The business and what is happening at home and all these things she's dealing, they're all connected. So, with them it's very hard for them to not deal with an issue when there's an issue.

[01:00:33]For us, you can be excelling at one thing and be completely terrible >> in the other thing.

[01:00:37]>> other thing. So, the lesson I learned is just try to be wholesome. Don't think that because you are doing so good in one thing this issue here is irrelevant.

[01:00:47]>> Irrelevant.

[01:00:48]>> You still have to pay the attention that it deserves.

[01:00:51]So, handle one thing at a time.

[01:00:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:54]And and and you know, you are grieving the loss of a child.

[01:00:59]And that was another emotional moment which you would you try to You try to >> escape.

[01:01:06]>> [laughter] >> I can't deal with this situation.

[01:01:08]>> another thing that women have to have to deal with. Yes. Especially, you know, the the society doesn't even give us the space.

[01:01:18]>> Yeah.

[01:01:19]>> Because when a woman miscarriages, even though she is your wife, I don't even think we are seen as >> Yeah.

[01:01:27]>> candidates of grieving.

[01:01:28]>> Yeah.

[01:01:30]>> I think the assumption is you are not carrying it.

[01:01:32]>> You are not part of this thing.

[01:01:34]>> Yeah, so what are you talking about that you are feeling pain?

[01:01:36]>> Yeah.

[01:01:37]>> But we we do grieve.

[01:01:38]>> We do.

[01:01:39]>> grieve.

[01:01:39]>> We do.

[01:01:39]>> Cuz you know this is something you wanted.

[01:01:42]>> Yeah.

[01:01:42]>> You are invested in it.

[01:01:43]>> Yeah.

[01:01:44]>> So there's a grieving. We may not be as expressive emotionally, but we are also just dealing with it equally. Yeah.

[01:01:51]>> Well, I have a theory.

[01:01:54]I think most men are not afraid of failure.

[01:01:59]I think they are afraid of being known.

[01:02:02]They are afraid of being exposed.

[01:02:07]What do you think?

[01:02:08]>> Expound it a little bit.

[01:02:12]>> I think we fear failure than >> We fear being known more.

[01:02:18]>> Then we fear being known more than actually failing.

[01:02:22]Who we truly >> Yeah, like our fears, our insecurities, our stumbling.

[01:02:32]>> Wow.

[01:02:33]>> What do you think?

[01:02:35]>> There could be something there because And I think first of all it stems from the fact of You think there's something about you that is not good. People know this thing about me.

[01:02:48]So it starts with self.

[01:02:50]Cuz you yourself there's that thing about you don't want. So you think other people will also have a problem the way you have a problem with >> And and maybe also to add even the failure we see it as part of exposing our inadequacies.

[01:03:07]So we fear our real fear isn't really the fear of failure. It's the fear of us being known, our inadequacies. Yes.

[01:03:16]>> Yeah.

[01:03:16]>> Yeah.

[01:03:17]>> I think that that that one is definitely there. It's definitely there, especially for people who've gone through a lot of rejection.

[01:03:24]You know, uh could have been you applied for a job, it didn't go through, or you approached someone for relationship, it didn't go through.

[01:03:32]And men, we don't deal with these things. They kind of just pile up.

[01:03:35]You know, after a couple of failed relationships or marriages, it kind of becomes part of your CV in life.

[01:03:42]You know, so I can't show people this CV. They're going to, you know, [snorts] it's going to confirm to them that I'm actually >> stay inside. Yes, yes.

[01:03:51]Yeah.

[01:03:52]>> And you know, if you think about it, what really will happen? Nothing will happen if people know your So it's really an illusion we've put for ourselves that if people know it's going to be a problem.

[01:04:01]>> expectation pegged on us.