The Freddie Kissoon Show with Host - Frederick Kissoon and Co-host: Leonard Craig.

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[00:00:00]example just that they have issues with others in sometimes with large firms but the lawyer is greater than the fee you're claiming [music] >> it is the right a right the right that someone has all of our rights exist in context we have a second because of disrespecting the process Jesus this is common sense >> [music] >> any situation [music] which you seem to do you're just dealing with actual guidance issues [music] if one you can't bring and pull the leaders in the African community together you're failing and if two you can't put forward a a future of blue of African uh geing as >> [music] >> Pleasant evening to you. We're on independence. This is the sixth year of independence and that is our featured topic this evening. There are only two persons that may be the best eligible persons in Guyana and the diaspora to talk about 60 years of independence and that's because of their long experience and then they became president. So what more you want than a president of Guyana who was born before independence. He was a teenager independence and their life went on till they became president. Those two persons are Mr. David Granger because of his age and because he became the leader of one of the two big parties in Guyana PNC and then he became the president and the other one was a longer experience in politics than Mr. Great job which I think would make him the more eligible than Mr. Great job to speak on 60 years of independence. Of course there is Hamilton Wayne but he was never president of Guyana and three other presidents Sam Hines Jack and Ali Sam Hines presidency only lasted 6 months. So that leaves Balachion or Fernady but they were not born uh in 1966 or before 1966 or shortly after 1966. So that leaves David Granger and Donald Ramatar. As I said before, when you examine the two men's history, Donald Ramatar would be in front because he was in politics longer than much longer than David Rachel.

[00:03:07]there to talk about 60 years of independence is a man who came from humble beginnings in the SCP and achieve the apogee of politics of being becoming the leader of his party and then the apogee of national office the presidency of Guyana. our guest this evening to take GY in Guyana, the diaspora and the young generation of Guyana over 80 88% not born before 1966 or shortly after 1966. So without further ado, his excellency the former president of Guana Donald Ramatal will take us through 60 years of independence. Donald once again thanks for being here his excellency um let's start with what um what what was Donald Ramatar doing or what he remember on independence day and independence night >> well on independence day found me in Kakaria living in Kakaria at the time >> have to tell our guest >> carar on the west bank of the river.

[00:04:27]None of the coast don't get mixed up with the coast. It's just within the river itself between Supernam and Bartika. That's the closer to Superam and to Bika. Um I was there I I remember independent day itself. Uh my father used to be involved with timber operation. He had a timber grant that operates all operations and my brother brothers were in the timber grant and I was asked by my father to ple the boat from the river into the Arawari creek bring them out to the district on Independence Day to celebrate and any other persons were in the area that wanted to come out that how I spent in the end of 196.

[00:05:24]>> Now, now you're you're getting on in age and we're in the 70s, 4 years after independence.

[00:05:33]That's a very controversial period. What was that like? Because you need at our age, you need to tell the young people how young our operators are. You need to tell >> the first thing I believe that we should talk about independence is what was the state of the country when Ghana became.

[00:05:57]Guy is the only country in the commonwealth that got independence with the state of emergency and political prisoners that we had. Um at the time of independence we had about 16 persons in detention that had simply hall in the baseron baseroni river including TV nuns was then a a political prisoner. In fact no got very sick while in detention. He contracted asthma and he eventually had to migrate out of the country. He died in England uh two years ago. So I want people to understand what that our nation was born under a period of very undemocratic as I said the state of emergency and the independence [clears throat] that we got while it was celebrated and we think it's a great achievement because of the long struggle that we in the PPP put up the the generations of the put up to win independence.

[00:07:17]Um we must also remember that it some of the dreams that we dreamed of independence was not then available. I remember also that from the very beginning there was resistance and fight for democracy even on independence day when the first parliament was convened where they do where the instruments were handed over for independence members of parliament led by Dr. Jagan walked from Freedom House to the Parliament building to attend that that first meeting with placards around their necks, one on the back and one in the front and the chest with it with the with written on it. Free the details now and that that those are they walk right up to the parliament with that and were not allowed to go into the parliament.

[00:08:15]So they had to take it off at the door of the parliament before they end their national assembly.

[00:08:21]So that is how our nation was born and that I I want to make that point to emphasize how far we have come since then uh because of of when we were born.

[00:08:34]You talk about the you talk about the question of u the 1970s. If you read that history and it was a very very difficult period actually from 1968 the first elections were held in independent Guyana and the people's national congress that was in charge at the time of the independence and they got the majority in the national assembly by a lot of people crossing the floor either by bribery or by coercion.

[00:09:10]uh in including former minister of the United Force when they got they were a quotation that that is what gave them the majority that they needed. a man by the name of Muhammad Kasim who was minister of hydraulics >> minister of works of hydraulics at the time and DAR wanted him sacked because the Gar said that he couldn't account for $5 million that was a lot of money at that time in our in today's money it would be quite a lot of money >> and then uh then prime minister Mr. the border bar up and said I authorized it and without giving any explanation what the money was spent for and Cassim crossed the floor to give the PNC the majority and the well and John who were then the first minister of affairs uh had all the power that they had and that elections together with some operatives from the United States that were here at the time the CIA actually the rigging the force election in Guyana in 1968.

[00:10:18]So the government started to become more and more unpopular. They started with a with an economic program, a a kind of a pro- capitalist, pro private sector um business program for Guyana. and they were becoming so unpopular because things were getting bad in the country that in 1970 they changed their slogan and started to begin to speak about cooperative socialism. I believe that they took that line because the opposition to them was fundamentally from a more left socialist party perspective and they wanted to try to take away that that um mantle from the PPP by trying to see if they could embrace the PPP's uh politics. Of course, they failed miserably because things began to get worse and worse and they uh came up they began to rule they run the country by slogans.

[00:11:19]be close and house the country, small man will be a rail man and a lot of slogans. But things began to get worse and worse. So much so that in in 1968 when the when the elections were rigged, the main the main form that was used was sping the voters's list with with uh fictitious names and also with uh dead people's names on it. Um, and they still had to do some breaking into the ballot box because in the 1968 elections in the Pomeroon area when the box were open, turned out the votes were thrown onto the table to be counted. 25 um ws of ballot paper wrapped in rubber bands fell out on the table to be [laughter] counted. And uh so that shows you that the elections were were and then they introduced at that time overseas voting and there's a film um by the Granada television that is called the making of the prime minister that exposed the whole fraudulent thing about the 1968 elections. And then by 1973 the situation began even worse because the methods that they used in 1968 were not enough for them to uh win the elections and they had to resort to use the army to seize the ballot boxes and to give themselves the two majority in 1973 to change the constitution and all of that. So things started to get very very tough as they became more and more unpopular. They became more and more undemocratic. Not only were they rigging elections as a manifestation of their undemocratic nature but they also was controlling everything. They aborian captain elections, trade union elections, everything they wanted to control because they felt afraid and not being able to afford democracy in the society at that time. So it was a very and by 19 by the end of the 1970s 1978 when the elections were supposed to be held the PNC postpone the elections on the grounds that they want to write a new constitution and set up uh to write a new constitution what they were calling the socialist constitution this time and elections were postponed until 1980 and again in 1980. the the rigging was massive in order to keep the PNC in government with the same type of method used about seizing the ballot boxes and changing.

[00:14:12]>> So that's the immediate post 1966 period. So independence then >> didn't start well.

[00:14:20]>> No, actually we we we as I said we started with the state of emergency. We started with political prisoners and then we had repression at every stage. I mean you you had um uh workers workers were uh being put down um worker strikes were being put down in many many ways and that was particularly in the sugar industry but it also began to occur in the boxite industry as well. uh when the PNC nationalized the boxite industry, I I think in a way they were forced to nationalize the boxite industry because the company refused to have any participation any government participation within the industry and if if the BNC had backed down at that time they would have lost a lot of faith. So they they were forced to take over the industry and when they took over the industry they found that they give themselves a lot of power because they were now controlling employment and what they did in and caused the industry to actually be undone was to have a big overemployment.

[00:15:34]all their supporters. They were trying to give jobs to who were trying to satisfy some of the uh their supporters needs and so forth, giving them jobs that created a terrible amount of inefficiency in the system and the collapse of the of the box side.

[00:15:52]But the but for the PNC itself I think it gave them the feeling of real power and that is why they move to again to take over the shoe industry. Um I don't think it was a philosophical ideological decision on their part to to do that because they never tried to dem democratize the management of anything of the industry. I think they took it over as a form of control in the give them a greater control among the masses at the time controlling employment.

[00:16:30]So we were born our independence was born um in a very difficult circumstances unlike any other in the probably with the exception of uh now known as Zimbabwe. But um there was no other country in the Commonwealth that I can think about and that was born in such uh economic and polit and not more the political situation that was uh so undemocratic and and and got worse as time.

[00:17:06]>> So one can say the independence didn't all go well.

[00:17:13]Guyana's political economy.

[00:17:16]>> I would not blame independence for that.

[00:17:19]I I think that uh despite the fact that the PPP felt robbed and remember the slogan of the PPP at that time was cheated and not defeated. That was the slogan that the PPP had which I think captured uh the what was happening at the time of the in the elections when we said we were cheated and not defeated and um but independence was a big step forward in the life of this country. At least we got rid of one form of oppression on us, the colonial oppression, and we now had to deal with the local oppression even though they were ali foreign uh interest and so forth. But one major obstacle was removed in the struggle for a better governance for a better life in our country. So from that point of view I wouldn't say that independence uh you know it was uh what the term we used just now but to say it was a great step forward even though the PPP was not in government at the time and independence came the [laughter] PPP still I think uh rightfully feel that independence came about as a result of their struggle fundamentally Although many of the dreams that we had were supported by the way we got >> but um don't you think that that kind of post independence behavior autocracy repression oppression rigging of elections denying of people right to vote don't you think it would have caused people supporters to say this is what independence So I I I I think it had a lot to do with leadership. I think the leadership that Dr. Jagen and and the people provided for the masses because Dr. Jagen never while he appreciated his own charisma and he appreciated the love that people had for him. He never depended on those things. He never saw those things as lasting and he always wanted to have conscious uh people to to understand uh what this what was in at stake what was the nature of the struggle and therefore he spent a lot of time in educating first of all membership of the the masses of the people the party school send people away to study political science and so forth party activists and also So at the same time used to be holding regular public meetings in the villages all over the country and took a lot of time to explain some of the most complex local and and international issues so that the ordinary man could understand. I think he believed very fervently that a conscious member of the party or a conscious support of the party um was very important in order for us to win back government and to fight against some of the methods that the PNC was using particularly racism and to maintain their support. thought that education was the main uh the the the the word antidote to to prevent those thing that to stop it and to uh be able to turn it around when the time come. Do you think our independence do you think our independence motions or independence integrity would have been preserved for week for us to reach 60 years if as some people claim the PPP should have tried to overthrow it? one of Jaggerite and I say Jaggerite because it comes from Dragonite uh uh outlook but I think Jagen himself said it you were playing with civil you were playing with civil war the PPP are trying to you were playing with a waste war >> uh Dr. Jagger didn't want to Dr. Dragon never saw power as an end in itself.

[00:21:58]He always saw power as a means to another end to build a different type of society. Build a society of justice and and and so forth. So he that is why he was he patiently worked among the masses. Patiently worked among the masses bring them to their understanding what was taking place and to get them conscious of the need to struggle um against what the PNC what the PNC was doing. um he would not have started not that [laughter] not that he was against not that he was a pacifist and he was against any any kind of struggle and so forth but he didn't he didn't want to do anything that could further uh inflame some of the problems that arose during the struggle of independence mainly the racial question that he wanted to he recognized that it could have taken a long time. But there was no shortcut to the whole issue of trying to lift the consciousness of the guy against um what was happening to make them see that race was being used to of associate the the real problems within the society to cover that those problems and the need therefore to to a lot of political education work to be done. In fact, one of the splits that took place in the BP uh immediately after the party came out of government or shortly after the party came out of 1958 when uh Ben departed from the um he left the PP for ideological political ideological reasons and his argument at the time in the was that that we should not in 1964-65 that we should continue we should try to fight the PNC since the PNC had now gotten into government should not allow them to consolidate themselves and to carry [clears throat] the fight to them that they were vulnerable and um we could probably win that fight but Dr. Dragon um argument against that was that the struggle for independence had degenerated large way and ended up in racial clashes and more of that will make it even more difficult in the future. they will bring the races together to which was necessary in order to fight for um the real freedom the second independence I would say that that that came in in 1992 that he thought it would be much more different and I think that he's right when you look back at the history because uh you remember in the n by 1973 the PNC had to bring the elections I told you worse than they did in 1968 to use the army to take the ballot box which reflected the growing dissatisfaction within the society as a whole and that was that [snorts] created the the ideal type of conditions when Rodney appeared on the scene in 1974 and one of the reason that Walter Rodney became so popular in 1974 because he was saying some of the same things that Dr. Jagen was saying, but his strength was that the very fact that he was African gyates, the PNC couldn't use the race card against him. But the it was very clear by 1973 that a situation had arisen in Guyana where there was um people were beginning beginning to come together more and more to pose the PNC regime of what was happening. And then later on in the 80s we saw developing in 1978 actually we saw the CBC the committee for the defense of democracy during the time of the referendum that called a that called a boycott of the referendum when only 10% of the people out to vote which shows a massive growing unity among the population and then later on you had dissatisfaction developing within the workingclass movement and you had forming the four union movement then the six union movement then you had unity at the religious level with the two uh bishops bishop George and bishop Benedict sink and other religious organization coming together so I think although it was a long way 28 years wait I still think that um Dr. jag but visionary and recognized that trying to force changes when conditions were not there would have been very dangerous for the whole of our society and finally I think we mustered enough enough um unity to to um to make the change that we made in 199 that independence was finally achieved.

[00:27:24]There is Guyana uh that doesn't have a colonial office running here, but um look what it turned out.

[00:27:36]>> Well, I think there was um I I think I >> where was the exuberance? Um 66 is independence. 68 PPP brutalized. I was a polling agent for the PPP in the 68th election at St. Thomas Mall Primary School in Dwood Street. And what I saw was you fight me if you open your mouth.

[00:27:59]People want to beat you in the school.

[00:28:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's 2 years after independence.

[00:28:05]>> Yeah. All of that showed that that time was an important factor in allowing people to learn from their own experiences.

[00:28:17]that that um many many people were fighting against their own interest in supporting the pain. any working people were going against their own interest because of the racial propaganda that that uh existed at the time and the fear that the PNG was able to generate among Afro gy working people to make them uh fear that if um the government they will take revenge of what the PNC will them and all of that. So time was a a very very important factor. And then we as I said we saw from 1964 to 1973 the PPP was fighting almost alone. There was no other force aligning with the people. But from 1973 after the regular election different forces began to arise and the people was working with them. uh like fellow travelers, we were working together and breaking out sometimes with disagreements and so forth. But it was um was a a important period for to give people to learn by their own experiences that the PNC but not necessarily having their interest at heart and they were only they eventually ended up running the country for a a elite all elite that um was in charge of the society at that point of time. I also think in order not to oversimplify things too because um you know um Borham was a very complex figure um he started out being on the left said that he was even a member of the communist party when he was a youngster in England. In fact he was recommended to Dr. Jagen by one Billy Stratton who was heading the uh CLC um as a good man to work with Dr. Jagen together then he swung and he was working with the British here in Guyana um and he was the one of the main person that instigated together with party instigated racism within the society and so forth. But I also thought that I also think that coming to the end of his career, the last five years of his life, I think that he was probably reflecting deeply on his own past and I believe that he was trying to uh this is a subjective factor and only my opinion um but I think that he was trying to live down the his pass that he had um by dividing the national movement and several things that he did.

[00:31:23]>> Well, [clears throat] he's dead >> and um and he al he was also trying to live down those things. Um because when you look at when he in 1985 for the first time in his since the split of the PPP in 1955 January of 1985 it was the PNC his leadership that initiated the talks with the people to have a joint government. And if you examine the situation at that time, you will see that his options were extremely limited. And I therefore think that they wouldn't had he lived past August and he unfortunately passed that I believe that the possibility of um uh unity emerging would have been possible because I think he didn't have when I examined the time when I check on the time of 1985 and what options he had after broke relationship with the or bank and IMF and so forth. The options were very very limited and it therefore it appealed to try to create uh talks with the PPP find a political solution after making these calls from the time they split accord now the first time he made it. I think that um probably there was a level of genuiness there that probably could have um made the the development of this country different had he fortunately passed and then abandoned that road completely to go back to the prompting position that they had taken at the time.

[00:33:14]Well, that I'm wondering if you should put that in writing because that has never been inuniated before by any major nonpc politician or even any major nonPPP intellectual or politician. I think what you have just Adam waited May is a first. I haven't read and believe me because of my work I have to keep people seeking to everything that is written um that Mr. Burnham was redeeming himself. That that is a first. That is an iconoclastic revisionist piece of political history.

[00:33:58]And I'm glad you mention it because I'd like to hear your thoughts on one dimension of that particular political nuance that began at the beginning of 1985.

[00:34:14]There is one account. Now there is your account but stop uh >> my views >> my opinion >> well that's your right it's your opinion but there's one account that documents what was going on between the two parties at that time and that's Han Min who was secretary to the talks from the PNC side people have had their secretary which he has a book which I absolutely show you up and in that book he said Mrs. dragon stayed away. She didn't want anything to do. Is it possible that she felt that Bono was trying to get out of a quagmire which was like sinking in with in sand and she had that reservation?

[00:35:08]>> I I don't think >> would you mention that in >> I don't I don't think uh I'm not sure how come some of those conf but I don't think he was involved in all of the talks. I think there's one man that you were you were no I wasn't but I know there's one person that I know um deeply involved Mr. Rohi >> Rohi was involved too but there's uh Ferose Muhammad was >> he passed away and the other person was alive is Robert Corby who who um I think Fero and Robert were >> were mandated by the two parties to have a lot of contacts with each other but the two of them had a lot of um important information that was never never really uh >> so Majid didn't have access to that because he didn't >> right um Majid probably came at a much later stage um in in in the came at a much much later stage in in those kind of developments. Um and I don't think Mrs. Jag did any I know that I know that at one time um she walked out of a meeting largely because I understand that um that there was some language that was used that was not very um >> pleasant >> pleasant language and she walked into that meeting it wasn't walked out because of political reason she would that she basically >> a meeting concerning the dialogue >> a very close meeting at the >> concerning the dialogue yeah the house of the prime minister in Belfield that um >> it got to be the house of the president because he was president then yes his house that uh that took place but um >> but he was he was the man cing himself >> anyway I want to go into the thing but I I I I heard that secondhand I didn't I wasn't there but uh I heard that she didn't leave because she disagreed with any political >> didn't I I don't think MJ was there that meeting he probably wore that they probably tried to you know Janet Jagen was one of the person who would bring for everything um that one Cherry I think Cherry had such a prestige within the society was so loved um he went across the board and even when Afro wasn't going wasn't voting for I still think they had that love and respect for him because of it own history that he had and they knew him not it wasn't someone that they knew. So Sher was hardly personally criticized if you look at the time they was always blaming someone else the channel Jagan or somebody else always being blamed and so forth. uh largely because I think there was a feeling in the opposition strategies don't attack Jagan directly because >> he's too much of a love to figure out too much right people people might yeah >> so um so I I don't think Janet was will oppose any of the direction many people try to say that but that is that is Well, Harid brought that out in his book. I don't think so.

[00:38:41]>> Um the um former minister of labor on this program as part of the discussing the 60th anniversary when asked about the two things that he felt was a a damage to our independence dream was the scrapping of the railway and the rigging of national elections. You were very much a young political activist in charge with the ontology of PPP. What are your two or if there are more than two for for Joseph Hamilton it's scraping of the whale we thought that was a disaster. I think the basis of all of that was um was the lack of democracy within country was the suppression of the people's will and even when the PNC probably did things with good intentions uh it didn't work the way they had it it it they had hoped it would have worked largely because [laughter] I think they didn't have the support of the people who weren't carrying the people to and and maybe the style of government style of governance on the reflection of it that we're in.

[00:40:02]But let's take for instance when they introduce free education.

[00:40:08]No one in in the right sense will say that one did that with u any malice or any intention. He had obviously had good intention and he had to do >> Yeah. because I couldn't go to high school. You have to pay for high school >> because uh some school have to be paid for >> most but >> most of the high schools. But having said that, I will say that it turned out to be a disaster in a sense because um I the country was not ready for it yet, but um maybe we didn't had the resources for that completely as yet and you remember B who was a former minister of education in 1974 I think she said the vast majority of children were could not read and write properly. And that was um and and um so free education which would in my view was done with good intentions.

[00:41:13]Maybe trying to rectify a a historical wrong that existed within [laughter] the society did not bring the kind of thoughts that we we wanted. we felt we went right down to the bottom of the lottery passes at at uh CXV examinations and and many other areas um we went down so I would say I would I wouldn't go to two I would tell you the the fundamental basis of it was the lack of democracy has that that had an impact on everything else it's 60 years that's a long time. Uh I read that I read one one source that says it's 90% of the country that is under 60 that 10% is over 60. So >> So we we in the 10% category.

[00:42:14]>> Yeah. Yes. So we we have so much institutional memory that you need look at the young operators. We need to tell them about where we came from. But what about where we are at the moment?

[00:42:33]You satisfy that 60 years after 60 years, you satisfy as former leader of the PPP, a former successful trade unionist, and most of all, a former president.

[00:42:49]>> I think there there's a lot to be proud of.

[00:42:53]um that that has been accomplished over the years. Um and particularly over this well over the since 1992 I think our country was growing regular slowly uh not necessarily slowly but at a fairly good clip and even even in uh when I was in when I was president for three and a half years um in very very difficult circumstances with that opposition I was fighting against everything. we still grew at at an average of 5%. which was at that time extremely good and I think now what the government is doing as far as infrastructure is concerned is something that we badly needed all the time in order to ensure that our economy and our country continue forward both now and when oil would have been finished that the infrastructure that is being created now will help to sustain uh a good economic growth to give our people future generation a good living.

[00:44:00]So I agreed I think a lot of that has been achieved but there's something there the old saying the more things change the more they >> that's an old friend saying >> but it can be true in Gana after >> it is true to some extent because you know in 1966 when we became independent we hardly had any control of our economy and if you look now at the structure of our economy is fundamentally in the hands of foreigners the the [snorts] oil companies, the mining companies um and so forth are there. I think we have to examine how do we how do we um fight to get a bigger share of the pie so that we can do more.

[00:44:48]I think a lot has been done put out about that. No argument, no debate about that. But much much more could be done.

[00:44:57]um if we get um a bigger stake in our uh economy and and a greater controlled economy that we have.

[00:45:09]So in this in this holistic pattern of positive independence things could would you like to I know you have done it in a general way in a holistic way just now you could quickly identify two three four five six I would I prefer [laughter] keeping it at the holistic at the holistic position. I would say I would just make those general general statements. I I think a lot of admirable things are being done now the social sector in health in education in many other areas. But some of the things that we doing fantastic um and and in some areas we catching up very rapidly with the developed countries some of the services that but I lied. I still believe fields of economics need to to find ways of being where we will have stronger control and greater share particularly in our natural process. These are basic assets. These are not things that >> you may get criticized >> after this program is aired for that strong analogy in in the uses of the use of the French term.

[00:46:48]>> The more things change, the more they remain the same. It's a bit it's a bit pointed >> in some ways. In some ways it is true that as far as if you compare the control that we had of our economy in 1966 and now I think actually say that although of course the French term applies there it applies more things change but um but don't you think that people may say that's Guyana changing and That's um opening up to the world and investment coming in and that's the reality 60 years after independence.

[00:47:34]people would probably say that but I I I am not speaking uh I'm speaking my opinion but I think that even though we can we can uh show a lot of what we have done we can show so much that we have achieved uh since independence and particularly since um I still think that much more could be achieved uh with with what I've just said >> and you you you you feel that is a little blunt on 60 years of >> I'm not saying I'm not I'm not calling it a blunt and but I'm call saying it is something that has to be considered has to be taken into account um and has to be worked on. Um is it not being government and not having all the information that in government should have um is it impossible at this time to do that? If it is impossible this time to do that, what is the thinking for our thinking about what meth method and so forth we can use start to uh pull back some things in our direction.

[00:48:59]But you would like to see that. Let's put it this way. At 60 years of independence, former President Donald Ramatar feels that one of the one of the regretful moments in the life of Guyana is that we don't have sufficient control over our resources in the context of what we had before.

[00:49:26]um even forgetting what we had before.

[00:49:30]Um because I mean I said some people could come and tell me that okay you had control of the oxide industries and so that's a different issue that's a different question but I suspect that there are all kinds of models that exist various parts of the world what China is doing what Vietnam is doing and many of these places that are moving and very rapidly how they're doing, what they're doing. Is it um taxation policies? Is it is it different form of ownership? Are we trying to think about other kinds of ownership that that we can probably um are we thinking about uh new form of of public ownership different?

[00:50:24][clears throat] I think those what I'm speaking about is is is um >> you mentioned taxation and the operating signal um where our time is going so I want to get this in because you mentioned taxation Mr. Favan who I think still remains a personal friend for end of words. Um he is against most most unqualifyingly he said he's against the abolition of property tax because he said it has come at the wrong time. This has come at a time where you really need it now because the society has generated a humongous amount of rich people and that property taxes retained allows the state to have money. So he's saying it's ironic that Nicholas Cal the budget director in 1962 brought it in and now in 2025 it's been abolished. at a time when it should be retained because look how much wealth is there.

[00:51:28]>> But you [laughter] I agree with that completely. Uh unreservedly I agree with that because people who are putting up the kind of property that we see obviously are people who could afford >> pay property tax >> to pay property tax.

[00:51:45]>> But what could it be? But because these are the same people who would benefit from all of the services, the new roads, the new highway, the the the the new governance is issue with all the all that is being laid out for services. So I think that they should pay but but make a bigger contribution and I I think they should feel good about it particularly local business. Um, foreigners will always try to hide it not not to do it, put a lot of pressure to get them to do it. But local business people should feel good about paying their fair share of taxes to make a contribution to the kind of >> that the operator signal that we about a minute.

[00:52:31]>> That's a good point to end.

[00:52:33]>> Um, thanks for being with us. You have a blank check on this program to appeal to Adam Buni in Ellen Gate on the ideological perspective of Donald. Just pick up the phone and call. Thanks for being with us.

[00:52:55]Great talk with you.

[00:52:57]I just interviewed former president of Ghana Mr. Donald Ramata on 60 years of independence. This program was brought to you inside the Chedd Dragon Research Library or Institute which is housed in the iconic building named Redhouse which was the home of Premature Jag. Thanks for being with us. As I normally say, catch you later. Bye-bye.