First Amendment Audit turns into Theological Discussion

追加: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]Can I can I ask you to go ahead and leave? And if you've got everything that you need, it just makes our people nervous. It just makes our people nervous.

[00:00:08]>> Yeah.

[00:00:09]>> So, if if you think you've got everything, I would ask you if you could just be done for the day.

[00:00:13]>> I can't let myself get chased off the sidewalk.

[00:00:16]>> Hey, what's going on, guys? Today, we're putting the audit in Flying Spaghetti Auditor. We're just going to be doing a little public photography here at the uh Tri City Baptist Church Ministries.

[00:00:27]We'll see if the folks here respect our right to take video and photographs in public and that's about it. If anyone wants to come up and talk to us, that's great. But we're not going to be approaching anybody. We're not bothering anybody. We're not starting any conversations. We're just going to hang out. Well, speaking of which, I can help you.

[00:00:43]>> Oh, hi. How's it going?

[00:00:44]>> Good. Can I help?

[00:00:46]>> No, we don't need any help.

[00:00:47]>> Uh, can I ask why you're here?

[00:00:49]>> Oh, yeah. We're just uh making a video >> for >> uh for YouTube.

[00:00:54]>> What's your subject matter?

[00:00:55]>> Religion.

[00:00:56]>> Okay. Well, >> yeah, >> I can talk to you about that if you'd like.

[00:00:59]>> Okay. Uh, well, we're not really conducting interviews necessarily. We're really just getting stock footage of people going in and out. So, >> is it specifically with our church or is it just religion in general?

[00:01:11]>> Uh, more like in general. I mean, it'll feature the church, but yeah, not it's not like specifically just about uh just about this one necessarily.

[00:01:19]>> Okay. Well, if you want specifics about our church, I'd be more than happy to talk to you about it. Um, sure. Some facts.

[00:01:27]>> Yeah. I mean, you guys are Baptist. Uh, anything else you can tell us about it?

[00:01:30]>> Oh, yeah. I mean, we're about the gospel. We're about Jesus. We're about helping people. We're about children and education. We're about so many different things. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, that's that's who we are.

[00:01:45]>> Okay.

[00:01:46]>> Um, we do though also um have concerns about security.

[00:01:51]>> Okay. Sure. And >> so that's why I came out just to see what was going on.

[00:01:55]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. We've got no ill intent, no ill will. We're not we're not planning on setting foot on the property at all. We're just going to stay out here on the sidewalk and Okay.

[00:02:02]>> Yeah. Just record from here.

[00:02:04]>> I actually think I've seen some of your videos before. Really? To be honest with you? Yeah. Are you you're on YouTube?

[00:02:08]>> Uhhuh.

[00:02:09]>> I'm sorry I don't know your um your name or your your your channel, but I'm almost certain I've seen you. So that's kudos to you.

[00:02:17]>> Cool. Did you like the content? Um, yeah, it seemed like it always went towards the um confrontational.

[00:02:24]>> Um, at least the ones that I've seen.

[00:02:26]>> Sure. Well, and we're not out here trying to We're not confronting anybody.

[00:02:29]We're not going to be starting any conversations. Uh, if someone wants to approach us and ask what we're doing.

[00:02:34]We're happy to have a conversation with them, but we're not going to be, you know, inciting any anything. We're not trying to get reactions. We can't control how other people react, but we're not going to try to we're not rage baiting or anything. We're not trying to make people mad or anything like that.

[00:02:47]>> Yeah. And that's that's all good. I'm I'm all for that.

[00:02:51]>> You just you understand how we have concern, you know, if we see things like this going on that we don't know about.

[00:02:58]And um so especially since we're concerned with the security of our church. I mean, sure, there's so many there's, >> as you know, >> have you guys had issues before of like breakins and stuff?

[00:03:10]>> Yes.

[00:03:11]>> Really?

[00:03:12]>> And um the just like many churches, right? you know what what we're trying to do is help people change their lives and sometimes they don't they um they have an adverse reaction to that and so we back off but then they come after us.

[00:03:29]So um we just have to be careful.

[00:03:32]>> Sure.

[00:03:32]>> And especially when you know we have all ranges of ages here. So um protecting them is is important to us.

[00:03:42]>> Yeah. So, it my concern in walking out here today is because like, okay, you know, what's going on? What's what's your intent?

[00:03:49]>> Sure.

[00:03:50]>> Um I'm I'm for free speech. I'm for letting people know what we're doing here.

[00:03:55]>> Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:03:55]>> And so, >> well, as you probably know, the same uh the same amendment that gives you the right to your uh religion gives me the right to report in public. So, >> yeah. And and there are abuses on both sides.

[00:04:06]>> Sure. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:04:06]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:07]>> Yeah. We're certainly not interested in causing any issues or, you know, even co, you know, starting any conversations.

[00:04:13]>> Yeah. I'm really glad to hear that.

[00:04:14]>> Yeah.

[00:04:15]>> So, what's your name again?

[00:04:16]>> Christian.

[00:04:17]>> Christian. Oh, that's appropriate. Yeah.

[00:04:18]>> Right.

[00:04:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. And you are >> Alyssa.

[00:04:21]>> Alissa. Good to meet you again. I I I know I've seen some of your videos now.

[00:04:26]So, um, we're all good as long as we're we got that squared away.

[00:04:31]>> Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you for coming out and talking to us and being professional and courteous.

[00:04:36]>> You would hope.

[00:04:36]>> Yeah. Right. Right.

[00:04:38]>> Yeah. You know, and uh I've seen a lot of crazy people out there and you know, the camera is like a um a crazy reaction magnet. It's like you don't have to do anything and people just come up and uh they get mad for no reason. They think they have a right to privacy on the sidewalk and they have they they'll come up and attack people who are just videoing in public. It's kind of wild.

[00:04:59]>> And I I in my mind it works in parallels a lot. I I would say the same thing about churches. You know, it's crazy if I go and I tell people, "Hey, I'm a pastor." You're you're you don't quite know what kind of response or reaction you're going to get.

[00:05:15]>> And so, um, but if if you can get past that and have a dialogue, it's usually not that bad of a thing.

[00:05:25]>> Yeah. And just like how there's a lot of, uh, there may not there's a lot of good photographers, good pastors, there's some not so good photographers and some pastors that aren't so good either. So, >> you know, it's all about accountability and just trying to, you know, be transparent about everything.

[00:05:38]>> For sure.

[00:05:39]>> Yeah.

[00:05:39]>> Well, honestly, if you wanted to know anything about our ministry, we I wouldn't mind letting you know or, you know, giving you some facts or whatever because um we we we have a pretty significant ministry. Okay.

[00:05:53]>> Um I I'm thankful to be able to be a part of it. Privileged to be a part.

[00:05:56]>> Yeah. Well, since you offered, I do have a question about uh like your your dogma here. How do you guys feel about biblical inherency? Do you think the whole Bible is inspired by God?

[00:06:04]>> That's really good. Um, yes. That's what the Bible teaches. Um, all scriptures given by inspiration of God is profitable for doctrine, for reprove, for correction, instruction, and righteousness.

[00:06:15]>> Yeah. That's uh so 1 Timothy 3:16, right?

[00:06:18]>> The thing I like to make a distinction on, which is where oftentimes people make a um an error, is they say, "Well, you you believe the Bible is literal."

[00:06:28]And I would say, okay, yes. But I I like to say I take the Bible as a literary form. So if the Bible's using poetry as a genre, I read it like poetry.

[00:06:41]>> Sure.

[00:06:42]>> Um it doesn't mean that, you know, where it says that God gathers his people like a chicken having, you know, under its wings, >> that doesn't actually mean God has wings. Right.

[00:06:52]>> Exactly. Exactly. So I the difference is the Bible is a literary book.

[00:06:58]>> Sure.

[00:06:58]>> Uh so I take the genre specifically but I do take it as authoritative.

[00:07:02]>> It's it's our um source for faith and practice.

[00:07:07]>> Now uh let me ask you a really tough question since uh you know we take a book like Deuteronomy which uh has the genre of historical narrative.

[00:07:14]>> Yeah. uh when that says uh there's when there's a passage like Deuteronomy 20:16 where God commands all of his followers to uh completely destroy six neighboring tribes and leave alive nothing that breathes, you know, directly commanding the slaughter of children. How do we square that away with a God who's supposedly all good and all loving?

[00:07:32]>> That is really good. Um Deuteronomy is in the Old Testament, >> right?

[00:07:37]>> Uh so that's prior to the cross. Um, in Romans, if I can jump to there, God um characterizes himself as both being the just and the justifier.

[00:07:51]Um, you could equally say, how is it that a God sends his only son to die on a cross for the sins of other people?

[00:07:59]How is that just?

[00:08:00]>> Yeah, I don't think it is either.

[00:08:02]>> Well, I do because God is both the just one and the justifier.

[00:08:09]So he is holy and that's where I think a lot of times we have a difference between maybe other doctrines is we take the holiness of God as significant as the love of God. One does not trump the other. They work simultaneously without contradiction.

[00:08:31]And so God is the just one. He will punish sin. He says sin is wrong. Sin is not who he is. it it will have punishment but at the same time he says here's my only begotten son uh here here's my son yeah that I that I offer as a propitiation as a sacrifice >> so he shows his justice and his love simultaneously >> sure well to me it doesn't seem like justice to like stab a baby in the face until it's dead for example I mean I know that's a pretty brutal image but that's what I would consider a pretty accurate interpretation of what's going in Deuteronomy. So if these babies are presumably innocent, I mean, you talked yourself about the safety of the kids here at the church. So obviously you care about children. You care about innocent people being protected. But if God is commanding his followers to slaughter infants and children who aren't responsible for sins, I mean the uh the Canaanites, the Amalachites, these were the people as a group may have done things, you know, some people in the group did things that were bad to the Israelites, but certainly the babies and children weren't responsible, but yet they suffered the consequences anyway on behalf of God ordering it.

[00:09:43]>> Yeah.

[00:09:45]comes down to whether we make God in our image or if God has been makes up us in his image. Am I enforcing my beliefs, my understanding upon God making conform to me or am I looking at God and saying that's who you are, that's who you have declared yourself to be and I need to understand that. It's very similar to if I go to the Phoenix Art Museum and I look at a painting and I say I don't I don't like that painting. Okay, I can have that opinion, but what did the author of that painting, what did the artist of that painting, what was he doing? Am I seeking to understand that?

[00:10:22]Those two worldviews are in contradiction to each other. One has to take priority. And if I step back and say, okay, I believe the Bible and God is revealing himself to us and he's telling us who he is, I definitely walk away with saying he hates sin. He is holy. And he's demonstrated that through uh many different ways in scripture.

[00:10:45]And then if I understand that, this is where the kicker is. Whenever I diminish the holiness of God, I also diminish the love of God.

[00:10:57]Because with many people would say, you know, I I do not want to say Jesus's death and sacrifice on the cross is insignificant. very very few people would say that but in fact effectively when I say that his justice towards sin is diminished then I'm also saying that is being diminished but if I first understand and that's actually if you want to read Leviticus Leviticus teaches me that I just have to exist to be at odds with God >> well and Leviticus also teaches that it's okay to buy slaves from other nations and own them for life and pass them on to your children and treat them like money, too.

[00:11:42]>> I I think I think what they're looking at is not that it's okay, but if you have them, this is how you treat them.

[00:11:49]Going all the way back, and I'm not for slavery. Please don't edit that or say that. I'm not for I take my view of who God is and who man is from primarily from Genesis 1 1-1.

[00:12:05]And just like I don't believe in polygamy, but David had many wives. I don't believe in so many other things, but mankind has done those things. My standard is my standard is not me. My standard is who God is. And if you look at Genesis 1 specifically, it's one man, one woman forever. not forever in the sense of end to heaven but a a monogous relationship on earth. Um and that they're both man and woman are created in the image of God with given the ability to have exercise dominion and to procreate. Um and that's that's how I that's how I view mankind. And then from because Adam and Eve decided not to follow God, we have it's sin. It's sin that we're dealing with in all of its forms and it's all all of its areas.

[00:13:01]>> Well, I'm not sure what that has to do with slavery only because in Leviticus and then Exodus 21, God isn't just seeing slavery and then giving parameters around it. He's specifically saying if you need to get new slaves, you can go ahead and just buy them from these other nations. Because the slaves that you get that are Israelites, those you can only keep for six years. But then if you buy a slave from another nation, then you can keep them for life.

[00:13:25]And then even if you do have an Israelite slave, if you give them a wife, if you give him a wife, the man gets to go free. But women are slaves for life no matter what. And then if they have kids, if your slaves have kids while they're under your uh uh your your slavery, then you get to keep the kids and the wife.

[00:13:40]>> I guess what I'd ask is what is the principles behind that? What are the principles? Where were they going wrong?

[00:13:47]And how was it that Moses in writing the penetude was seeking to correct that?

[00:13:54]Also, that's not where we're living today. That's not where we are today.

[00:13:58]We're living in the New Testament where if you read Ephesians, if you read First and Second Thessalonians, if you read other passages of scripture, there's multiple ways that you prioritize humans, whether male or female. And we're so apart from that. There's so many other things today. I'm not diminishing that there. I teach and I believe that there's only one race and I I say that without apology.

[00:14:29]>> There's one human race.

[00:14:31]>> Sure.

[00:14:32]>> And we treat everybody the same.

[00:14:34]>> Well, I would definitely say that the New Testament uh promotes a misogynistic view as well where first Timothy, what is it? 2:12 says that you can uh women must be quiet in church. are not allowed to have authority over a man. Since Adam was made first, Eve is a subordinate and as a result, all women must be quiet.

[00:14:53]>> Do you think that role dictates uh >> Well, I think if your role is never being allowed to have authority over a man, I think that's setting up a a hierarchy.

[00:15:04]>> Yeah, that's that's one-sided. Um complimentarianism is not a denigration of women.

[00:15:14]Um again I going back to Genesis 1. How was it that before sin God set up the relationship that man was not mankind uh the male gender the male sex is was not um complete.

[00:15:33]So here is female your completer and they're meant to operate and relate in tandem.

[00:15:42]But one of the one of the lies I believe is is promoted is that role determines worth and that's not true.

[00:15:52]Male and female have worth and God and God gave different roles to work in tandem.

[00:16:00]And that's that's that's a subtle difference, but that's a significant difference. I suppose I just don't see why a woman's role can't be in a position of authority over a man because I've met plenty of women who are great leaders and >> outspoken and well spoken and plenty of men who uh >> are less authoritarian than them. I mean all sorts of people come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

[00:16:22]>> The if my understanding is correct, we have to qualify. I I've had several women that have been my direct supervisors and one of the greatest people I've ever worked for was a woman.

[00:16:34]Um, I I honor I I seek to honor and I seek to um follow women in many areas of my life. One of the roles that a man has no specific role that God gave him is a spiritual leader, but that's not complete without a female. It's why I believe one of the reasons why a pastor should should be the husband of one wife because that team if you will that husband wife team is a better team than just a single pastor without them. So where I guess I see a lot of positive affirmations of women in leadership and in the role that God gave them um others would see a negative. Well, and I think that men and women can make great teams.

[00:17:25]And I think that men and men can make great teams and women and women can make great teams. And how do you feel about same-sex marriage, for example, since Leviticus, which you brought up, says that two men that have relations with each other deserve to be executed?

[00:17:38]>> Yeah, I I think I you probably know my answer. Um my answer there is I go back to Genesis 1. Um one man, one woman. Um that's what God intended. That's what he Some would say, well, it's because it's for procreation. Um, not necessarily.

[00:17:56]Isn't it interesting? Isn't it interesting that if you continue to read in Genesis when sin enters, the things that God gave man and woman are not taken away, but they're made more difficult. I find that to be interesting.

[00:18:13]>> Yeah. Like God made childbirth a a painful punishment. Yeah. For example, >> and work it. I we still have to maintain this landscaping but this landscaping is fighting against us. Yeah. Right. So I still have the responsibility but now with sin it's much harder.

[00:18:30]>> And so I I I I like to direct people's attention to the real enemy and the real enemy is sin. And God is God is the one that is in his overarching um redemptive history is fighting that to as our champion. He is he's saying it's a it is it is an issue. The problem of evil is real. Um I I visit people that are dying a lot and um the problem of evil is real.

[00:19:01]Um but he says there is a justifier.

[00:19:05]That's why I love preaching and teaching about Jesus.

[00:19:08]>> Sure. Well, in my understanding of sin is that sin is just whatever God doesn't like. It's just a subjective opinion.

[00:19:14]And some days he doesn't like people eating shrimp, but then he becomes okay with it. And some days he says you should stone homosexuals to death, but then he's still not okay with it. But maybe now we don't need to stone them to death. So what he considers right and wrong changes over time. And then what he thinks is a worthy punishment of certain sins changes over time. I >> I think that's a misunderstanding.

[00:19:35]God God does not change his view on sin.

[00:19:38]He makes ways beyond it. Even in the Old Testament, I mean, all of Leviticus and Deuteronomy is about the sacrificial system that looked forward to Jesus. Now, after Jesus, we're living in light of that.

[00:19:53]And it it accentuates what Jesus is.

[00:19:56]See, God as justifier does not change. I I think you're you're spot on with that.

[00:20:02]God as sorry, God as the just one does not change.

[00:20:06]>> He is holy.

[00:20:07]>> Yeah, that's like divine command theory where whatever God says is good is good by default. But >> because of who he is, right? He's God.

[00:20:15]He's God. Is he God or not? Am I making God in my image or am I >> in his image? Who's who's what horse is leading the car?

[00:20:23]>> And I suppose it depends on our definition of good because if my definition of good is just whatever God likes, then it's kind of a total like of course good is going to be what God likes. But if my definition of good has more to do with the well-being of people, the preservation of health, happiness, and well-being, and then immoral actions are ones which cause unnecessary harm and suffering, then from that criteria, we could say that a lot of God's behavior in the Bible that he claims is good is actually horrible.

[00:20:48]And a lot of his behavior is, you know, extremely detrimental to people's well-being. He kills babies. He orchestrates the the rape of women. And Christian, the question I think that you should ask yourself is who therefore is God? Because if if you're saying, God, you don't measure up to my standard.

[00:21:08]So therefore, I'm going to take my standard over yours. I I think you can do that. You have the ability to do that. But what if I do something different and she does something different? Then who's God? We we we uh go into a the most polytheistic world religion of all that where everybody is their own authority.

[00:21:28]>> Yeah.

[00:21:28]>> And there can't by definition there can be only one God and and that's the question. Who is he >> here is what he has said and it comes down to where are you going to build your house? Are you going to build your house on you the foundation that you decide or are you going to build the foundation on what he has said? And and everybody builds. Every man builds. So you have that ability. But but it concerns me that that logic is self-defeating because now I have to decide am I going to go with Christian's God? Am I going to adopt Christian's God? Am I going to form my own God? Or am I going to follow this God? And and and that's and that is the question. That is the question.

[00:22:13]>> Sure. Well, and I agree that that can be a problem and an issue like who do we whose morality do we follow? Who's who's got the right idea of right and wrong?

[00:22:21]But I don't think imposing a religious view solves that in any way because all we're doing is introducing a god who no one can demonstrate and claiming that his opinion is the right one. But I see no reason to think his opinion is any more valuable than me. And it contradicts all of my goals because he's at odds with everyone's wellbeing. And that's your that's your your your choice. I I can't arm wrestle anybody into the kingdom of God. I can't. And in fact, that's counterintuitive. What I can do is I I go back again. I'm a Jesus guy. I go back to Jesus. Jesus, if you read through the book of Matthew, which I think you have, what you'll see is Jesus telling us stuff. He'll say, "Hey, this is what's true. This is what's true. This is what's true." Sermon on the Mount, you know, all his other sermons. But then in between those, he does miracles. Why do you think he does both? Because I I think one of the reasons is because he's saying, "I'm going to tell you something that you can't prove, that you can't see. I'm going to tell you about something that's outside of the natural world.

[00:23:22]But now I'm going to show you something in the natural world that you can see, that you can understand here. This man, you know, blind to seeing. This man stretched forth his hand. This woman healed. I'm going this person come from the dead. I myself come from the dead.

[00:23:39]I'm going to show you physical things that you can that build credibility if you will because as Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But Jesus doesn't arm wrestle anybody into the kingdom. And again, that's that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying to say, okay, here's here's what God has said. We're going to try to execute it.

[00:24:00]We're going to try to explain it to the best of our ability as what it says and then and then let people decide on their own. Ask questions, have good dialogue like this.

[00:24:13]>> Sure.

[00:24:14]>> And um and then go from there.

[00:24:16]>> Well, and I think the miracles of Jesus could have been great evidence for the people living alongside him in the first century. But now we have no good reason to believe any of these miracles actually happened or any of the things he said are actually accurate because all we have is claims written by people who didn't even know him. As I'm sure you know, all the gospels were written anonymously. You know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John's authors weren't actually Mark, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We have no reason to assign those names to those books >> with that. So the >> and Luke in particular takes extra great concerns both in Luke and Acts to both identify himself and to give us historical facts that we could go back and check and beyond any document that we have. Uh the Bible continues to be at the top of the list of accuracy and uh veracity. So I I I I think I don't think that's as strong as an argument as as you may think that is. Well, it is true that the author of Luke and Acts is likely the same person, but that doesn't mean that his name was Luke because the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were only first attributed to those gospels by Irenaeus a 100 years after the last gospel John was even written.

[00:25:25]>> Even how they've they're in scripture themselves, >> they're not well the characters are in the book, but there's never a part in the book of of Matthew, for example, that says, "My name's Matthew. I'm writing this gospel." In fact, in the book of Matthew, the character Matthew interacts with uh Jesus and and meets him, but it's all spoken about in the third person as if it was written by a different guy. And if I'm not mistaken, the meeting of Matthew and Jesus was actually copied from the Gospel of John.

[00:25:55]I might be getting that backwards, but >> yeah, I think one of the things there is Mark is um usually assigned to Peter's account. So, that may be what you're thinking. Um, but Mark wrote it based off of Peter's account. Um, but the gospels themselves, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, John being a bios, not specifically a gospel, um, is a little bit different. But, um, where it where it comes down to is where, again, I'm going to go to Matthew 7, but, you know, what is it that you're willing to bet your eternal soul on? Where is it that you're willing to build your house?

[00:26:37]Because all men build and uh Jesus makes it clear that it's it's really one of two choices which is kind of which is kind of amazing.

[00:26:47]>> Sure.

[00:26:47]>> In our world today.

[00:26:48]>> Well, I think another great question to consider is what are you willing to bet your real life on? Because this is the one and only life that we know for sure everyone agrees this life is real. And if I waste my whole life following a God who's not real, I mean, even if the teachings are useful and and have utility, if the supernatural claims aren't real, then I don't find value in following it because I care about the truth, whether it's helpful or not. And I do think that religion is incredibly unhelpful. I think that religion is I I mean, with all due respect, I think it's a toxic cult on humanity. And I think that it gives a lot of hope and comfort to people, but in the same way that, you know, it's like a comforting lie. You know, you're telling someone they're going to get a billion dollars when they turn 18, but there's no actual money there. Just like you're promising people they're going to live forever, they're going to see their deceased loved ones again. But all of that, all the promises are empty because they're they're built on sand. There's no evidence behind any of them.

[00:27:44]>> I guess I would pivot then, Christian, with you. And I would say for sure that the research, even if you go to the Pew Research Center, they've done studies on that where and there's books written on that. Um, the seven great questions that the Christian church has to answer is a really good, if I'm getting that title right, it's been a couple years since I've read it, but it's a really really good book. Pierce is another author that's addressed that. Um but along those lines, the idea that religion is all negative is a really hard one to prove. Um secondly though, >> well to be clear, I don't think religion is necessarily all negative. I just think it's a net negative. So I think the bads, the cons outweigh the good.

[00:28:31]>> I I still think that you would the burden of proof would be on you for that.

[00:28:34]>> Sure. Yeah. And I'm happy to take it.

[00:28:36]>> Yeah. with.

[00:28:38]But at the end of the day, where it comes down to is what God is doing in your life specifically. And that's what I would appeal to. I think you're a very intelligent man. You're very articulate. You're you're studying and that's not flattering. I mean, you demonstrate that. Um, but I would say in addition to that, um, what I tell people a lot is to read the book of John and to let the Holy Spirit, which I do believe is active today, um, do a work in your heart that I can't do or that anybody else can't do, that only he can do. And like Lee Stroel when he went down that path um, at a personal level, the case for Christ, I don't know if >> Yeah. Um, he that would be like an example of what I'm talking about.

[00:29:29]He said I was like, "Okay, I'm an open-minded guy. I'm an open-minded person. I like dialogue. Lord, I'm going to start one with you, God. If you're there, I'm going to start one with you.

[00:29:39]I'm going to let you talk to me. I'm going to interview you and I'm going to read your your word and I put it on you.

[00:29:49]Open up my heart. um help me to see Jesus as the Messiah.

[00:29:54]And um if it's true, it's true. If it's not, then as Paul says, we're all both miserable.

[00:29:59]>> I think that you kind of hit the nail on the head where the responsibility should be on God. If he wants a relationship with all of us, then he's the one who should come out and introduce himself.

[00:30:08]>> Jesus.

[00:30:09]>> Well, I wasn't there for that, unfortunately. So, I'm, you know, I'm only 30 years old, but I was a Christian for 20 the first 20 years of my life.

[00:30:16]And so I I prayed, I believed in God, I accepted Jesus into my heart. But the reason I left the religion was because I came to realize I never had any good reason to believe it was true in the first place. So I went on a mission to find good evidence if it was out there.

[00:30:30]I did lots of research. I did way more research into it in my deconstruction and and afterwards than I ever did when I was actually in the religion. And the more I thought about it, the more I researched, the more I listened to people discuss it, the more I realized I didn't think anyone had a good reason to believe any of this stuff was true, particularly the existence of God himself.

[00:30:48]>> Yeah, I I would just disagree with you there. Um I I know it myself. I've seen it myself.

[00:30:57]Um I'm and again the prepoundonderance of the evidence is is pretty significant but all of that I don't think is as strong as your direct experience with God and um Jesus is alive and well today and I think that he could make a difference in your life truly not just because I want you to join our church or you know become a Christian again or or get back into wherever. I I I feel I this may sound come across as pedantic um or demeaning, but I don't mean it that way.

[00:31:31]I just I I would I'd like something better for you. I'd like a little bit more assurance because I do believe that we're created in the image of God with a purpose to know and love him. Going all the way back to the Westminster confession, what's our purpose in life?

[00:31:46]To know God and enjoy him forever.

[00:31:49]I I believe that's >> Sure. Well, and similarly, and you know, without trying to cast shade on anyone, I I wish something better for everyone at the church here, you know, and I I have nothing against community and fellowship and people who want to get together and have fun and be friends.

[00:32:01]I'm all for community and helping each other and, you know, doing volunteer work or whatever else cuz I'm sure you guys do a lot of great stuff. But my only issue is telling people claims which we can't back up with sufficient evidence. telling people that they're going to live forever, telling people they're going to see their loved ones again after they die, telling people that there's some god out there who's watching over them, cuz I don't think we have good reason to believe any of these claims are actually true. And I think that telling people those things, particularly with the issue of like dealing with deceased loved ones, can cause uh a more harm than good because it deprivives people of the ability to deal with death in a healthy and responsible way.

[00:32:41]>> Yeah. I I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. Um I'm in addition what I do here, I'm a hospice chap. So I I sit and talk with people.

[00:32:53]That's my part-time job. And so I I see the evidence of sin in the sense of death. You know, I don't believe cancer was a part of God's plan um as a result of sin. So, I I see us all dealing with the difficulty of this world that we're living in. Um, but I don't make that mutually exclusive from knowing Jesus as my savior. It it is it is the problem of evil. I'm sure you've read a lot about evil.

[00:33:26]>> And it is, as John Frame says, it's one of the greatest difficulties that we have to deal with in this life. I think it it extends even beyond where you'll hear the uh the excuse a lot of apologists will give for the problem of evil is that God isn't inflicting suffering and evil. He's just allowing us free will and then we decide to commit sin and that results in consequences. But there's a lot of areas where I think we can draw a direct connection between the consequences which I think are really just inflicted by God on purpose. Cancer aside, you might take something like parasites.

[00:34:04]These are living organisms that God created on purpose in order to infect humans. He even if that wasn't his intention, he knew that it would happen.

[00:34:12]Millions of people would end up getting sick and dying because they get parasites that he created ecoli and all these bacteria that he specifically designed through his intelligence seemingly just as a punishment for something our ancestors did. I wasn't the one who ate the uh the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. that was Adam and Eve. And even so, I don't think God could even be justified in blaming them because they didn't know what good and right were, what good and evil were at the time that they ate the fruit. So even though he told them not to, they didn't understand that disobedience was a sin.

[00:34:45]>> He told them that though. He said, "In the day that you eat of this, you're going to die. You're going to experience a consequence."

[00:34:49]>> Well, that was a lie because they didn't die that day.

[00:34:52]>> Correct. The death sin and death enter into the world. They weren't death was not a part of the equation before that. So I I'm not assuming instant I'm not attaching instantaneousness to that death. I'm not qualifying death in that way. But death we've been talking about that death has been in the world since then and continues to be in the world since that time. And there's and again Paul and Romans, right? Death passed upon all for all have sinned.

[00:35:24]Um, we're still dealing with that.

[00:35:27]Again, God is coming forward and saying, "Yes, both of these things are true simultaneously and without conflict. He is the just one. He is the just one.

[00:35:40]That that is the way that he is. That's who he says he is.

[00:35:44]He will punish sin or he will deal with sin. But at the same time, simultaneously without conflict or contradiction. He says, "I am the justifier. I will send my one and only begotten son to be the perpetuation of to be the propitiation."

[00:36:02]Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. Again, that's why I'm a Jesus guy.

[00:36:09]>> Sure. Well, I think it's kind of uh if we're getting into the whole sacrifice of Jesus, I think that the whole charade was unnecessary because surely God could have just forgiven all of us. I mean, I can if if if Alyssa here punches me in the face, I can forgive her and I don't I don't need to demand that she slaughters a dog or her uh or her son in order or my son in order for her to be forgiven. I can just say, "I forgive you and that's the end of it."

[00:36:38]>> It would be more like Alyssa punching you and I saying, "Liss, I forgive you."

[00:36:42]>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:36:44]>> Yeah. But God demonstrated his love towards us and that while we were yet sinners, in this case Alyssa, Christ died for us. That that's how he demonstrated his love. He's like, I I don't want you to experience this punishment. So the only way the way that this will happen is if I take it myself. And that that you know, vicariousness, right? How could Jesus be the vicarious atonement for our sin? And again, if I'm God, maybe I choose something different. If I'm God, maybe I write the rules differently.

[00:37:18]>> Sure.

[00:37:18]>> Um, but I'm not God. I'm contingent. I'm I'm not I am a contingent being.

[00:37:25]>> Um, >> but since God is making the rules, surely he could have just set up a system in a way where >> the wages of sin wasn't death. He's the one who decided that in the first place and then he used himself, his son who is himself as a scapegoat >> and from my perspective to make us feel guilty and so that he could make us feel sorry for him. Say look at me. I killed myself for you. Now you need to feel bad about what you've done.

[00:37:49]>> That's that's not how it's positioned in the Bible. That's grace. I mean grace doesn't say that. So, I mean, I I think again we we I'm not trying to make it simplistic, but I do think that we come back down to who is the one that's making the rules. If I right here and now, pun intended, if I became a Christian, if I became a Christian and adopted your views on everything, then I would be making a very distinct and deliberate faith-based choice.

[00:38:21]Um, if I decide I'm not going to do that, I'm going to become a a Jeffonian, whatever. Um, then I'm making a very distinct faith-based choice. But if I take the position of I'm not God. I'm contingent. I'm not necessary. He is He's necessary. And I am going to learn as a great artist, as a great art, uh, what he has said and what he has done.

[00:38:48]And I'm going to orient myself to him.

[00:38:50]I'm going to have the fear of God because he's God. Then that's that's the better way.

[00:38:57]>> And I I certainly think I think it is true that it's our choice whether or not we follow God and adopt his teachings as as our own. But I don't think it's a choice as to whether we're convinced he exists because I think being convinced of claims is is there's it's not a choice at all. I mean, we just become convinced of claims based on evidence we're exposed to and are, you know, being openminded. Do you think that God exists?

[00:39:19]>> No.

[00:39:21]>> Even in an Austinian or um idea of God that there or a um >> Thomas Aquinus atomism idea of God?

[00:39:30]>> Nope. Yeah. I don't I don't think that there was any sort of intelligent design behind I see no reason to think there's any intelligent design behind the universe or nature.

[00:39:38]>> It's turtles all the way down then.

[00:39:40]>> Well, not necessarily. So, just because there isn't a god doesn't mean that there's necessarily an infinite regression. There could be some sort of start to the universe or it could be a universe that's eternal. And personally, I think the most likely explanation is that our local presentation of the universe could be traced back 13.8 billion years. But before that, I have no idea if the universe began at that point or if it extends infinitely in the past. But >> but yeah, again, infinite regress, right? Sure. Turtles all the way down.

[00:40:09]>> What happens after that last term?

[00:40:11]>> There has to be something. And all that I'm saying from an Augustinian or from a a Tomism belief that whatever that is that's God. So to be atheistic to say there is no God that I think William Lane Craig said a reasonable man a reasonable man will believe in the existence of God because it's unreasonable to believe that there's nothing after that last turtle or that it's another turtle. Um >> well I think God himself could serve as an infinite regression of turtles because if God is infinite and he extends infinitely into the past then you still believe in an infinite regression. You've just shifted it from the universe to God himself.

[00:40:57]>> I believe that there is a being outside of the natural world that is supernatural and as that being I have qualifiers.

[00:41:08]If there is that being then he has to have certain things. He has to exist necessarily. He has to exist infinitely.

[00:41:17]He has to exist omnipotently. Omni present. I mean all these things. And >> well I'm not sure how you gather all those qualities. I mean perhaps uh exist infinitely or outside of time and space but I don't see why we'd have to say he's all powerful just because he doesn't exist in our reality.

[00:41:33]>> Okay. Okay. I mean I I think as a necessary being he he has to be independent of everything in our natural world and those characteristics are characteristics that would be consistent with that type of being. And so I on a philosophical level I just do the shorthand and say well whoever that being is whatever the being that is that's God. And then you extended a lot further than that because you attach a certain name Yahweh and Jesus and a bunch of characteristics and claims about God and his >> which is interesting because that's what when Jesus was alive neither you and I were there but when he made that claim himself people are like okay I'm picking up these rocks because that's crazy talk you know but that's he said okay I'll prove it I'll prove it in a way that you see and understand I'll prove it daily or weekly with miracles and I'll prove it ultimately with my own resurrection and then for us someday he'll come again. Um so >> and that is assuming that the claims within the gospels are actually true >> and that's and again we go back to we go back to what am I willing to believe where what am I willing to stake my I like your point my daily life and my eternal life upon and I make the faith-based choice that I'm going to believe Jesus. I'm a Jesus guy and I'm going to acknowledge that if I don't am not a Jesus guy then I'm someplace else and I have to have I have to execute the same criteria on those views as I'm going to here and um and that is a faith choice.

[00:43:12]>> Sure. Well, and I I think that faith is really dangerous because it could be used to justify belief in literally anything because there's no there's no claims that we could that we couldn't accept based on faith.

[00:43:21]>> Everybody has faith in >> Well, I try not to have faith in anything. No, you do. You You have I mean, I'm not trying >> I might, but I try not to.

[00:43:28]>> I'm I'm I'm not trying to be Well, I I think that you put If I can say this.

[00:43:32]>> Yeah, please go ahead. You're not going to offend me.

[00:43:35]>> I think you put your faith in your reasoning power in your experience and in your studies. I I think that's the rock that you're standing on. That's the rock that you're building your life on, which I that's admirable. If I could counter that, I think that while I do trust those things, I wouldn't consider it faith because they've demonstrated their repeated reliability because I've tested my critical thinking and my experience and my sensory data and they continue to prove reliable and continue to demonstrate that they're accurate.

[00:44:02]>> It's a very small spot though. I mean, again, if I became a Christian, I I would need I would need to adopt your position and believe that with my whole heart. It seems it seems unusual because I'm a different person. But when we do it for ourselves, um, >> but just to be clear, you would need to adopt what with your whole heart.

[00:44:25]>> Your position, >> which is >> which is I I would need to extract I'd need to have I'd need to take the camera and ask you all these questions, right?

[00:44:32]>> Well, I'm happy to share. So my my perspective at least on the God question is that I don't assert to know that God doesn't exist with any degree of certainty. My position as an atheist and an agnostic atheist is that I'm not convinced any gods exist, but I don't claim to know that for sure. And I I think I I like to think that I exhibit a lot of humility when it comes to the origin of the universe, for example, because I don't claim to know how the universe started or what was before the big bang or if that concept even makes sense. I haven't the slightest clue. I don't think any of us can be confident in what happened that that long ago. So, I think that just saying I don't know is the best answer.

[00:45:09]>> Yeah. And What I hear when you say that is, you know, our church on our website, we have a doctrinal statement. I'm getting pieces of your own personal doctrinal statement. You're sharing with me what you would have on your website as this is if the Christian church was a Christian church. Um, here's the doctrines that we subscribe to. And what that what I interpret that as this is Christian's statement of faith. This is where he is rolling his dice on both his daily life and his eternal life. And I say, "Okay, you can do that. That's God.

[00:45:43]God has given us the ability to do that.

[00:45:45]And I'm not going to twist your arm and and coersse you into mine. But I'm just saying that's that's what I'm calling faith."

[00:45:51]>> Well, I guess from my perspective, the the disconnect might be I don't think I need faith to not accept any position.

[00:45:58]>> But that is a faith-based statement.

[00:46:00]You're saying you're saying here's here's my body of belief. And that's if if if you look at if you look if you go back to Matthew 7, Jesus does say every man builds. That's at the end of his sermon on the mount. The wise man builds his house on rock. The foolish man builds his house on the sand. Both men build.

[00:46:20]Both men build. All men build. We all have our doctrinal statement that we stand on. Now, I've studied theology.

[00:46:28]I've studied the Bible. And I would say I'm not 100%. I I know that there are things that I need to study more and understand more and improve upon.

[00:46:37]>> Oh, me too. You I guarantee you're more well versed than I am.

[00:46:40]>> Well, it's just where I'm studying. I wouldn't know how to do a YouTube channel.

[00:46:46]>> I'd be sitting I'm still learning that too.

[00:46:48]>> I'd be sitting all myself here.

[00:46:50]>> But um it's that that's no big deal. But all that I'm getting at is all men build. And um an agnostic atheist position is a faith-based position. Just like someone who says I only believe the scientific method or I only believe what my senses can discern that that's a faith-based statement.

[00:47:11]>> I don't think so. Because if I'm the the agnostic atheist position isn't one that's making any sort of positive assertions. So all I'm doing is rejecting the claim that a god exists.

[00:47:22]And I'm not making the claim no gods exist. And so I don't need to have faith because faith is the justification we give for believing in things without evidence in spite of evidence. The the hope for things unseen as Paul describes it. So I don't need to have a justification if I'm not making a positive claim.

[00:47:37]>> It it's a position though and the position is an articulation of your faith. So I I like getting people about Bigfoot. You know, Bigfoot Bigfoot is the, you know, the hide-and-seek champion of the world. Sure.

[00:47:52]>> I would say Jesus is the hideand-seek champion of the world.

[00:47:55]>> I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I also think as somebody come, you know, uh, Bigfoot is naturally fuzzy.

[00:48:03]That's why all the pictures are bad.

[00:48:05]>> Exactly.

[00:48:06]>> I like that, too. But if I say I don't believe in a Bigfoot, I don't believe that there's one out there, that is as much of a position statement as the guy says there is one.

[00:48:16]>> I disagree.

[00:48:17]>> Okay.

[00:48:17]>> If if you were to say, I know for sure there is no Bigfoot, I think that would be a claim that carries with it the same burden of proof and the same perhaps amount of faith as >> but as agnostic you say I don't know, >> right?

[00:48:32]>> I don't know.

[00:48:32]>> I don't know there's a God. But that that is the same type of a statement in my opinion. That's the same type of >> I guess I just have to disagree with the definition of faith in that case.

[00:48:41]>> Okay. You're you're you're building your life. You're building things on that belief. And that's the qualifier for me.

[00:48:49]Where is it that I'm what is my worldview? How do I see this? What what brings you out today to do this? It's a worldview. It's it's a it's a right that needs to be made wrong or it's education that needs to happen. All good.

[00:49:03]But it motivates you. It pushes you to that. And so, um, Oh, Christian, I need to get back.

[00:49:11]>> Yeah. Well, it was, uh, Pastor Jeff. Is that right? That's me.

[00:49:14]>> Hey, thank you so much for your time and I appreciate the conversation.

[00:49:16]>> Yeah. And, um, on camera, off camera. It makes me a little nervous being on camera. Um, >> you've got you've got cameras in there, right? All the sermons are online.

[00:49:25]>> We do, but we don't. Yeah, we do. But it's the editing and the and the um manipulation of things.

[00:49:32]>> I'll make you a promise. I'm not going to do any editing, which uh is an attempt to mischaracterize anything that you've said.

[00:49:38]>> Well, even being on camera makes me nervous. I'm not a senior pastor.

[00:49:44]>> Have you guys ever thought about hosting uh debates? Is that something you guys have ever done before?

[00:49:49]>> We actually are pretty active on ASU's campus. Really? Okay. On a weekly basis now that um our college is over. um they they graduated. Um it's gonna it'll pick back up in the fall, but we are consistently weekly on ASU's campus for that very reason. Um it's a lot of one-on-one.

[00:50:07]>> Yeah.

[00:50:07]>> Because that's where I I think it's a little bit more effective.

[00:50:10]>> Sure. Yeah. And I do lots of debates. If you've seen my channel, you've probably seen some of the discussions I have with people online. So, it's it's always fun and interesting to get in and talk to somebody in person, too.

[00:50:19]>> Just be careful, dude. Be >> safe. Yeah. There's some crazies out here. Yeah.

[00:50:23]>> Some of them carry cameras.

[00:50:25]>> Yeah.

[00:50:26]That's right.

[00:50:26]>> Thank you, Chris.

[00:50:27]>> Again, thank you, Jeff. Have a great day.

[00:50:29]>> You, too.

[00:50:31]>> Yeah, he was nice. Well spoken.

[00:50:33]>> Thought so.

[00:50:33]>> Very veryful. Yes.

[00:50:35]>> Yeah. What do you think about uh walking over there and standing in front of the window?

[00:50:38]>> Yeah.

[00:50:38]>> Yeah, we can do that.

[00:50:39]>> Let's do it.

[00:50:42]>> You think that's where their service is?

[00:50:44]>> Uh, no. I think the main that's like their main lobby. And you know what's really funny is they probably really uncomfortable with us filming toward their windows, but the real irony is we can't see a damn thing. I mean, there's no visibility inside of that window whatsoever. It's a >> it's like a complete glare.

[00:50:59]>> I mean, in any window, honestly.

[00:51:01]>> I can see that they have lights on towards the top. Like the ceiling has lights. You see that? But beyond that, there's no visibility at all. I can't see a darn thing.

[00:51:11]>> A darn thing.

[00:51:12]>> Hey, you know, at the top, you can see the right below Tri City Baptist Church.

[00:51:16]It looks like they had words, the same exact words written with bigger letters and then they switched signs.

[00:51:23]Yeah. Really faintly. You can see a bigger text Tri City Baptist Church right below it, which is pretty interesting.

[00:52:00]Oh, hey.

[00:52:02]>> Can I ask you to to go on if you got everything?

[00:52:07]>> Can you I'm sorry.

[00:52:08]>> Can I Can I ask you to go ahead and leave if you've got everything that you need? The reason why I ask is it just makes our people nervous being filmed and they don't know why.

[00:52:19]>> Okay.

[00:52:20]>> Um >> Well, did you tell them there's we're nice guys? There's nothing to worry about.

[00:52:23]>> I I actually did cuz >> like I how we started, we do have security and so we noticed that you guys were >> and um but with with the given climate around churches today um it just makes our people harmless.

[00:52:41]>> Yeah. So, if if you think you've got everything, I would ask you if you could just be done for the day.

[00:52:46]>> Well, you know, I I get people Well, >> I want to be reasonable with you, but at the same time, I can't let myself get chased off the sidewalk. And part of what we're doing out here is just proving the point that this is public and we have every right to film, just like you guys have the right to congregate and and worship in your own religion the way you want to. So, >> and I'm not I'm not debating that. And I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm just telling you it it Our congregation is a little sensitive about it. So, I'm just asking.

[00:53:16]>> Sure. Well, >> if you would mind wrapping up or wrapping up soon, it would it would it make our people feel a little bit more at ease.

[00:53:24]>> Well, we won't be out here all day. I can promise you that.

[00:53:27]>> Okay, here's more stuff. Um, and it's what this is our program from today.

[00:53:34]>> Okay. Um, I also put in there um a series that we're doing on Sunday nights that actually go over a lot of um what you and I talked about.

[00:53:46]>> Okay.

[00:53:46]>> By our senior pastor.

[00:53:48]>> Sure.

[00:53:48]>> And we post all of our sermons on our website. So again, facts or data if you want them, we we put it out there. And I even put my personal card, Christian, >> because I would I think I think it's better um or I don't know, better. It's it's another tool >> if we interact one-on-one. So that's that's for you to have to get in contact with me if ever you wanted to.

[00:54:13]>> Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:14]>> Um I appreciate that.

[00:54:15]>> What's the name of your uh content page?

[00:54:18]I don't I think you're on TikTok, but you're also on YouTube.

[00:54:21]>> That's Yeah, I'm on all the platforms, but I just don't get out while I'm working. So, while I'm out here, I just can't I can't disclose that.

[00:54:27]>> How would I find you?

[00:54:28]>> Uh, in a couple of days, if you search for your church on YouTube, you might be able to find the video cuz I'll I'll have like the name of the church uh in the description of where I am, but like I said, I'm not trying to paint the church in any um you know, I'm not my intention isn't to paint it in a negative way from the outset. All I'm doing here is documenting what's going on. So, you know, I think you've presented yourself in a professional and courteous way, and I think you've done your your whole church here a really great service by being their ambassador.

[00:54:55]And um yeah, we're not we're not looking to paint anyone in any sort of way that they don't paint themselves.

[00:55:00]>> Yeah. And that's like I said, I I'm not afraid of content. I'm afraid of editing.

[00:55:07]>> Sure. Um, so yeah, and that's why I'm I'm trying to give you if you want to up upload or post our website where people can go and watch our sermons or even the series that we're doing on world views.

[00:55:21]Um, I'm good with that.

[00:55:23]>> Yeah.

[00:55:24]>> All right. All right. Well, thanks, Chris.

[00:55:25]>> Cool. Yeah.

[00:55:26]>> So, there's no I'll look for you, but any clue or any kind of way that can help me with that search or finding you?

[00:55:34]Uh, I think you'll probably have a a pretty relatively easy time finding it.

[00:55:38]>> Okay. I've I've looked for Christian and pink sunglasses. You haven't found me yet, so I'll keep on looking.

[00:55:45]>> Right on. Thank you. Appreciate you, Pastor Jeff.

[00:55:47]>> Yeah. Thanks. And seriously, Christian, that's me to you. Um, I'd love to talk with you oneon-one anytime.

[00:55:55]>> Sure. So, up to you, man.

[00:55:57]>> Appreciate the offer.

[00:55:58]>> Again, stay safe.

[00:55:59]>> Yeah, we'll do. Thank you.

[00:56:02]I don't know how much of that you you heard, but >> Oh, yeah. He was basically saying like he was asking >> if we Yeah, he was saying people are uncomfortable and he was wondering if we would move on, if we've got everything we've needed, but uh you know, we part of I told him part of what we're doing out of here is just demonstrating that we can't be chased off a sidewalk and we have every right to stand out here just like you guys have the right to practice your religion. So, >> you know, that's the way it goes, you know. And he was polite. He didn't do anything anything uh unprofessional. I think he >> a pamphlet.

[00:56:32]>> Yeah, he did. Yeah. He said his personal card was in here and Oh, he asked if where he could find my channel, but I told him I don't give it out while I'm working.

[00:56:39]>> Are you going to send it to him?

[00:56:41]>> No. I mean, he's welcome to look for it on his own, but uh yeah, I'm not uh I'm not interested in necessarily just just giving my information away to everyone who asks. when it comes down to it, I'm happy to have the conversation with him, but we don't owe him an explanation for anything. So, >> you know, I I'm happy to offer uh as much detail as I can and indulge him and listen to anything he has to say, but um I'm not going to take >> uh you know, he wasn't demanding that we leave. He wasn't saying, "Get out of here. I'll call the cops on you." He was just asking.

[00:57:13]>> Uh and he's just, you know, cuz people are probably talking to him about it.

[00:57:17]So, >> you know, he he's just doing his thing.

[00:57:19]And you know, I just told him as respectfully as I could that we're not going to be chased off the sidewalk. So, >> did you >> Oh, yeah.

[00:57:27]>> Here's another car here.

[00:57:28]>> Maybe this guy's uncomfortable. Who knows?

[00:57:37]And really, I don't get it. Why do people get uncomfortable around cameras?

[00:57:41]>> I think it's a shock value, though.

[00:57:43]Like, they're not used to it.

[00:57:44]>> I'm just a guy holding a phone. Like, everyone's got a a phone in their pocket. Everyone's got a camera in their pocket. What's >> the intention, though? They don't know what you're going to do with that. I >> What's the difference?

[00:57:54]>> So, they don't know you, right? Or they don't You don't know them.

[00:57:58]>> I don't know them. They don't know me.

[00:58:00]Yeah. It's my first time ever being here.

[00:58:02]>> Yeah. We're not out looking to And I told him we're I'm not looking to point to paint anyone in a negative light. I don't want to make the church look bad.

[00:58:09]I'm just here documenting. So, uh I just, you know, if someone wants to make themselves look bad, that's totally on them. But I can't make you look good. I can't make you look bad. I'm not interested in doing any sort of dishonest editing. I'm not going to take things he said out of context and rearrange them. You told him that.

[00:58:25]>> Yeah. I'm just going to put the whole thing out there from start our conversation from start to finish, you know, uninterrupted. I'm not going to uh, you know, splice it up. I want people to get the full context because I want people to see how Pastor Jeff from Tri City Baptist Church Ministries handles people on the public sidewalk. And I told him I thought he was a great ambassador for his church.

[00:58:46]which I thought he did a really great job >> uh interacting with us and I thought he was polite and courteous and professional and that's all we can ask for. So >> this is a cool car.

[00:58:55]>> That's a cool car.

[00:58:55]>> Yeah.

[00:58:58]>> Yeah. Sick ride.

[00:59:03]>> Wow.

[00:59:06]>> Skirt.

[00:59:11]>> Hey praying for you guys.

[00:59:12]>> Hey thanks.

[00:59:14]>> Thanks for doing what you do Christian.

[00:59:16]Oh yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Have a great day.

[00:59:20]>> We're probably what everyone is talking about in there the whole time. You know, it' be really funny if we went back and watched the service to see if they mentioned us while they were up there.

[00:59:30]>> That was a great interaction. Praying for you. I could have I could have said something snarky like, "I'm I'm thinking for you.

[00:59:38]Take your prayers and shove them up your ass."

[00:59:43]>> Just kidding. I wouldn't say that to somebody.

[00:59:47]>> And you know, when someone says they're praying for you, usually they're not actually praying. Well, yes.

[00:59:52]>> But most often than not, they're not actually praying for you. They're just saying that in order to uh sometimes it's meant to be condescending and sometimes it is actually meant to be nice.

[01:00:00]>> Sure.

[01:00:01]>> So, you know, he seen they they had smiles on their face and for all we know, they they support the First Amendment. So, they're uh they they could very well be uh happy we're out here.

[01:00:16]Sir, let me be recording.

[01:00:17]>> I'm sorry.

[01:00:18]>> What are you recording?

[01:00:19]>> What are we recording? Yeah.

[01:00:20]>> Uh, just the church.

[01:00:23]What's >> the purpose behind it?

[01:00:24]>> The purpose?

[01:00:25]>> Yeah.

[01:00:26]>> Well, we're just making a YouTube video.

[01:00:28]>> Okay.

[01:00:30]>> Yeah.

[01:00:31]>> Yeah, that's it.

[01:00:35]Thanks for asking. Have a great day.

[01:00:47]Hey, what's that old saying where it's like the church this here's the church, here's the steeple, open it up and see all the people.

[01:00:54]>> What about it?

[01:00:55]>> Well, if someone ever says like, "What are you guys recording out here?" We could be like, "There's a lot of people in that car." We could be like, "Oh, we're just uh we're recording the church, the steeple, the people, >> you know. Cars coming in and out.

[01:01:10]People's license plates and faces.

[01:01:15]>> Don't fill my license.

[01:01:16]>> We're just getting license plates. And >> oh, this guy.

[01:01:20]Oh, he's turning around so he can go out the other end the other exit.

[01:01:26]>> It's funny.

[01:01:36]You got to put the key in the door, I think, to turn it off.

[01:01:49]>> You are so funny.

[01:01:59]>> Yeah, there's a line over there.

[01:02:01]>> Oh, really?

[01:02:02]>> Yeah. Dang, they probably are all going over there to avoid us.

[01:02:07]>> What do you think? You want to go back over that way?

[01:02:09]>> Yeah, >> let's do it.

[01:02:14]>> Look at this guy. He's packing up.

[01:02:18]>> We're not >> Jeez, we're monsters.

[01:02:23]>> Yeah, it's like we're not going to We're just standing here. You know, people are weird.

[01:02:31]See, this guy's nice. He's waving at us.

[01:02:33]Nice guy. That's how everyone should be.

[01:02:35]>> We're not out here trying to scare anyone. Look at this guy.

[01:02:38]>> He's like, "Oh, I'm going to go out this way so I don't get filmed." Yeah, like I mentioned before, even though it says uh times for time for tots preschool. This is uh connected to a church. And there doesn't appear to be any preschool or after school events going on since today's Sunday. I haven't seen a single kid. It's not why we're out here. We're just trying to film a church and make a video about religion and more specifically religious people and how they uh respond to being on camera, which is not scary. How do you think things went today?

[01:03:09]>> I think things went well. I love the conversations you were able to have, interactions, and I hope next time we can have more.

[01:03:16]>> Yeah, it'll be fun.

[01:03:17]>> Yeah, me too. I think this was uh I think it was a good time.

[01:03:19]>> Yeah.

[01:03:20]>> You know, so yeah, that's pretty much it.

[01:03:22]>> I think today went pretty well. I would say uh try try Baptist Church. Tri-State Baptist Church. I'd say they were a pass. I think they did pretty well today. So, uh, yeah, no one gave us a hard time for being out there. Uh, Pastor Jeff had a a really long conversation in which he indulged uh, lots of questions and a theological little bit a little bit of back and forth theological debate, which I think is cool. So, yeah, we uh, we'll probably wrap this one up here for today. And, uh, you know, it's not over until the fat lady sings because I I think I see someone approaching us. So, maybe we'll stick around for that and see what happens.

[01:04:10]H weird.

[01:04:14]>> Yeah.

[01:04:15]>> What do you think he was saying?

[01:04:17]>> Oh, they're still they're still out here.

[01:04:20]>> Why won't they leave yet? You know what it would have been? It's the irony is we were literally about to leave when he came out here. Yeah. Yeah, I think we uh I think we accomplished everything we need to out here.