SIMPLY FRANK EPISODE 9 | LINDA KASONDE - TOPIC: GOVERNANCE

追加: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00][music] [music] [music] [music] [music] Good evening. This is Simply Frank and I'm Frank.

[00:00:38]Tonight we look at governance, you know, issues with the latest highlight, the revelation by outgoing [clears throat] US ambassador Michael Gonzalez about the alarming rate of corruption in government. so many other you know governance uh you know issues of concern with three months before the elections.

[00:01:04]My guest Linda Cassande executive director LCK Freedom Foundation and at the same time governance issues. My pleasure.

[00:01:17]>> Thank you Uncle Frank. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:19]>> Yeah, you look good.

[00:01:20]>> Thank you. I would have thought you'll be very straced considering so many issues you're [laughter] dealing with.

[00:01:29]>> No, not at all.

[00:01:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about um your organization first. You know, what it is >> all about and I've known you for many years. You know, you you're always on the side of the people.

[00:01:44]>> I'm not saying you're the only lawyer.

[00:01:46]You know there are others out there but you've spent a lot of time on issues related to the goodness of a human inner [clears throat] being. Where does that come from? And first the organization and what I've said.

[00:02:04]>> Thank you. So our organization is called the LCK Freedom Foundation and it's an organization to promote and protect human rights, constitutionalism and the rule of law in Zambia. But our main focus in in terms of achieving that goal is on strategic and public interest litigation [clears throat] uh to achieve those aims. And also we have got grander plans of making sure that the young lawyers who are coming up also take interest in constitutional matters and uh carry the torch forward going into the future.

[00:02:40]Um this interest in human rights and constitutional law I think has stemmed from uh my education. I I went to a secondary school in Swaziland >> uh which was it came out of the anti-aparttheide movement. So it was very much an activist school.

[00:02:58]>> Yeah.

[00:02:58]>> And I think that's really where my interest peaked.

[00:03:01]>> And then of course uh through my studies I studied uh a topic called civil liberties at university. Yeah.

[00:03:09]>> Yeah.

[00:03:10]>> Excellent. I was going to, you know, ask this question later on in the program, but since you've made reference to uh to human rights, >> there was supposed to be a massive and international conference on human rights in this kind.

[00:03:26]>> I I tell you, we were all excited.

[00:03:29]>> Mhm.

[00:03:30]>> Out of the blue, the government uh you know canceled it. What do you read into this? and we have been condemned as a country you know by um many people internationally.

[00:03:43]What do you read into this?

[00:03:45]>> Well, firstly it's really unfortunate that the conference had to be cancelled right on the eve of when it was supposed to take off. um you know people had made plans, booked hotels, uh plane tickets and even local businesses here were gearing up to serve the thousands of tourists who would have come into Lusaka.

[00:04:08]>> So [clears throat] on that front it is very unfortunate but also we look at the reasons given by the government for um allegedly suspending the conference. So of course it's now cancelled. So the reasons given were that um the the contents that would be discussed at the conference were not in alignment with our national values. Now if that's the case um that is something that should have been considered right from the outset because the program of the conference was not a secret and the government was involved in the planning process pretty much from inception which was over a year ago and in fact Zambia was chosen as a destination in 2023.

[00:04:55]>> Yeah. So um a lot of time for the government to reflect on whether this was indeed in line with our national values and principles and to just cancel it at the last minute >> just reflects very badly on our country.

[00:05:11]Um it just shows that um you know uh primarily we we're not a government of human rights and the rule of law as we professed to be.

[00:05:23]>> Yeah.

[00:05:24]>> Because human rights are universal.

[00:05:27]They're indivisible.

[00:05:28]>> Uh every human being is has the right to dignity >> and uh a respect of their rights. So for you to be selective about who deserves to be uh to have freedom of expression or freedom of assembly really does not reflect well on the government.

[00:05:45]>> Isn't uh this government not worried about uh losing international you know reputation.

[00:05:55]>> Well they should be because this has been a huge dent on the on the our [clears throat] international uh reputation because all eyes were on Zambia. people came from all over the world were supposed to come from all over the world to attend [clears throat] this conference and their experience has been negative.

[00:06:13]>> So obviously uh and and you know people the sorts of people who were supposed to come were not only human rights activists there were IT experts uh government officials from all over the world um you know uh you know people who are interested in cyber security. So, it was a wide cross-section of people who were supposed to come and this is one of the largest human rights and tech >> uh conferences in the world, if not the largest.

[00:06:42]>> Mhm. You've just made reference to uh to cyber laws.

[00:06:47]>> Aren't these laws infringing on the liberties of people? And why again I ask this government you know went took this path >> when prior to the elections that's one law >> that they wanted to repeal or remove.

[00:07:09]What has changed?

[00:07:11]>> Indeed. And and if you recall um about maybe one and a half maybe two years ago um the government made a very big pronouncement that it was scrapping the defamation laws, the criminal defamation laws >> which have been used by successive governments to you know harass and intimidate dissident in our country >> uh or opposition leaders as well. and they made a big deal about saying that this is to promote democracy and human rights in the country. But really what has happened is those defamation laws have been replaced by these cyber laws.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah. which um if you recall also the cyber the initial cyber security and cyber crimes act was passed in 2021 >> and when this government came into office in uh 2021 they told us that they would repeal and replace that law with a more uh human rights and democracy friendly law. Mhm. [clears throat] >> But in fact, what has happened is that those new laws, the Cyber Security Act and the Cyber Crimes Act, which are two separate acts now, are equally as oppressive as the previous law >> and are now being used. I mean, recently we've seen uh opposition leader Kas de Muenda being uh um arrested under that [clears throat] law. So we are just seeing the same patterns repeat themselves and it's unfortunate because we need to move away from weaponizing the law against citizens. We should be uh promoting and respecting freedom of freedom of expression in this country because what tends to happen when people are silenced or there's a chill a chilling effect on >> whether people feel free to express themselves you'll find that the government doesn't know what the individual citizens are thinking >> and therefore surprises can happen.

[00:09:11]>> Absolutely.

[00:09:12]>> Yes.

[00:09:12]>> As a writer you know you know to that this government and I've been around for a long time. I've served all you in a governments. I know it did happen in in PF >> to some extent >> but it's [clears throat] more issues of cases of concern. Now almost everything this government touches >> is contentious.

[00:09:39]talk about uh the amendment of the you know of the constitution you know uh bill you know 7 which is now you know act 13 of 2025 very contacious >> now as if that's not uh enough we've got 74 bills >> taken [clears throat] you know to parliament just a few months and they have to be dealt with in 10 days. Mhm.

[00:10:07]>> My question is why is this government so much involved in contentious issues and as a side issue to that they seem to do this with impunity and when these issues you know go to court you know they usually win. I I [clears throat] know there's some clever you know lawyers but really you have to be a genius to win all the uh you know all the cases. Please comment on that and why you have taken it upon yourself to file against you know these bills and you also filed against the constitutional amendments. M so citizens of this country are not only endowed with rights such as the right to freedom of expression, the right to freedom of assembly uh and and other rights that are contained in in our bill of rights. We also under our constitution have duties >> and one of those duties is to uphold and defend the constitution. And so when citizens see these things happening, it is incumbent upon them to do something about it. And that's what we're doing at the LCK Freedom Foundation.

[00:11:29]>> Now it's not about fighting government.

[00:11:31]It's ensuring that government if you like sticks to its lane because you know a government is supposed to act within a certain legal and constitutional framework >> and when it starts veering away from from that >> uh it is our obligation to make sure they move back >> into where they're supposed to be which is uh respecting the rule of law and the constitution. So that's really the role of citizens and hopefully governments don't feel attacked because you know that that's that's that's what the role of a citizen is to make sure that they that we're all governed under one legal framework and that nobody's above the law.

[00:12:15]>> Yeah. Tell me there's no doubt that certain things are being abrogated. The constitution is being abrogated >> by the executive. Mhm.

[00:12:26]>> Are you are we seeing a situation where the executive is much more powerful than the other arms of governance? And if this is true, what are the repercations when the other arms of in governance are weakened?

[00:12:45]So under our constitutional order, under our democracy, there's a concept called the separation of powers, which basically says that the executive, the legislature, which is parliament, and the judiciary are three separate but equal arms of government who hold each other to account. And that system fails where that accountability is [clears throat] not happening. Um so for example where the executive does not obey court orders of uh the judiciary.

[00:13:19]Yeah.

[00:13:20]>> Or even the legislature does not obey orders of the judiciary >> and so um the system has come under a bit of strain.

[00:13:30]>> Yeah. Um but this is probably with have has been with successive governments >> because um ultimately the executive appoints uh the people that occupy the judiciary and also the head of uh the national assembly.

[00:13:46]>> So um ideally each arm of government should be independent and stand strong >> uh even at with the face of of of pressure. Um unfortunately sometimes we don't see that.

[00:14:02]>> Yeah.

[00:14:03]>> Um for example with uh bill 7 we saw the the speaker of the national assembly clearly say that they would not obey >> Yeah.

[00:14:15]>> the Muna Zulu judgment.

[00:14:17]>> Yeah.

[00:14:17]>> Which in other countries would be a constitutional crisis.

[00:14:20]>> Absolutely. because you know that that clearly distorts or disturbs that three but equal um uh platform on [clears throat] which the executive, the legislature and the judiciary stand. M >> so [clears throat] uh again it comes back to the citizen um and their role to make sure that when these things happen they make sure that whoever has you know strayed from their path >> should be put back uh in their rightful place.

[00:14:54]>> I'll be coming back you know to the role of the citizens but I want to talk about the powers you know that are inherent in the uh president or the presidency.

[00:15:04]There's no doubt that the powers are immense. At the same time, I don't see any president >> who would like the powers to be reduced.

[00:15:17]>> How then do you address that?

[00:15:21]>> Um I think they tried to address it with the 20 26 2016 sorry amendments. Of course, the executive still has a lot of power.

[00:15:30]>> Yeah.

[00:15:31]>> Um particularly through appointments.

[00:15:34]Um but we now have in our constitution I think it's articles 90 and 91 of the constitution which do constrain the powers of the executive. Basically they say that the executive can only perform uh or exercise power that is in the best interests of the citizens of this nation.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah.

[00:15:57]>> And unfortunately that's not challenged enough. often there the again we talk about um an arm of government straying from where it's supposed to be. Yes, we need we need to hold our government to account when it is not acting in the best interests of of the citizens of this country and every action every measure taken by the executive has to be measured against our constitutional national values and principles. So for example in the Mona Zulu uh case for example um one of the the the values and principles that wasn't followed was particip democratic participation and also um um you know following following um an inclusive procedure >> um in terms of allowing citizens to express themselves elves over a reasonable period of time and in a in a in an amount of depth that is meaningful. Um and those national values and principles were not adhered to uh uh in the in the initial bill 7 tableabling. And of course we've seen it's now act number 13 and of course now we're in court um basically stating that the the constitutional amendment that is act number 13 of 2025 was an unconstitutional constitutional amendment. Mhm.

[00:17:30][clears throat] Tommy, parliament is very key, you know, uh, in governance. What is your take on the performance you know of this particular you know parliament in line with how they've acted you know especially on bill you know 7 as I speak there's an issue of defections and I think the constitution is very clear you know when you defect you know declare the seat vacant >> to our surprise this speaker says I'm still thinking about it.

[00:18:09][clears throat] >> What kind of an indictment, you know, is this miscus on there?

[00:18:13]>> Well, it is a very damning indictment on that institution, the legislature.

[00:18:18]>> Yeah.

[00:18:19]>> Um, we only recall uh on the passing of bill 7, now act number 13 of 2025, we saw the speaker dancing.

[00:18:28]>> Yeah.

[00:18:29]>> In celebration. [clears throat] >> Yeah. um which you know calls into question the independence of that arm of government.

[00:18:37]>> So these are all issues that um we as citizens need to take strong interest in and ensure that the right things are being done and that justice is done and appears to be done. Mhm. Let me ask you about the contents of the electoral you know you know act you know which has now given room to more members of parliament because of the del limitation 70 of them we're talking about a blotted in in you know parliament.

[00:19:13]What is your take again you know especially on the cost and also [clears throat] do these 70 add quality to the performance of the house why do I say this I've followed proceedings in parliament there are some members of parliament who have not spoken a single word >> some of them for 10 years >> now you're giving parliament an extra 70 an extra cost.

[00:19:43]>> What is going on? Isn't there somebody out there who is conscious about the performance, conscious about the cost?

[00:19:54]>> Well, I mean there are several things um uh coming out of this delimitation exercise.

[00:20:02]>> We know for example that the whole process was sharded in secrecy. It was not transparent. It wasn't open. And when you look in fact um at how these 70 constituencies have been distributed, it actually waters down the voice of um constituencies that contain more uh more populous populations, constituencies with more people. For example, uh Lusaka province should >> because it's more populated should have if you like a more weighted um vote than a than a constituency that has fewer people because you know that's how the distribution has worked. If you actually analyze how the constituencies have been distributed, the effect is to dilute the voices of uh certain constituencies that are more populated and to to give more weight to the vote of smaller uh uh uh less populated uh um um provinces for example. And so the whole exercise of act number 13, the the constitutional amendment act number 13 of 2025 was exactly to do that to skew >> Yeah.

[00:21:27]um the provisions of the constitution to make it easier for the incumbent government, the government that's here today, >> um to have um an inbuilt majority, a super majority in parliament, >> which would make it easy for them to pass laws that they want to pass >> and and make any amendments to the constitution.

[00:21:51]>> Yeah. Tell me are you seeing obviously there are you know people you know on the side of the government of the day who are very happy about you know what is you know going on irrespective of the repercations even on them. Are you seeing now a distinctive divide, you know, of the country on political lines?

[00:22:24]Well, I think one of the downsides of the provision >> of the 50 + one threshold in the constitution for a presidential candidate to win an election >> is essentially it meant um that presidential candidates garner support >> um from areas where they feel more affiliated.

[00:22:52]Okay. So essentially it has split the country down the middle >> according to uh if you like tribal affiliation. So in that respect it was a that was a small downside.

[00:23:06]>> Yeah.

[00:23:07]>> Um so definitely we've seen more polarized politics. Uh we saw it with the patriotic front government. uh we saw you know denunciation of certain tribal groupings and unfortunately that trend is continuing.

[00:23:23]>> Mhm.

[00:23:24]>> Um we're seeing statements uh urging particular tribal groups to um uh support the incumbents.

[00:23:34]>> Um which is very unfortunate because we're all Zambians.

[00:23:37]>> Yeah.

[00:23:38]>> Uh and we all have a say in how our country should be run. No one Zambian should feel inferior in our own country >> and we really need to take back our country. You know, we've recently celebrated KK day >> and I I said that one of KK's greatest legacies >> was to unify this country and it was done by taking very deliberate measures.

[00:24:05]when he made appointments, he made sure he tribal balanced across the various regions in this country.

[00:24:12]>> When civil servants were posted, >> if if you were member, you were taken to northwestern province or or or any you know any other tribe was was moved around. And this was all in a bid to foster national unity so that we all consider ourselves as one. And in fact, Zambia is one of the few countries on the continent that I that I know of where there's a lot of inter tribal marriages which is not common in a lot of other African countries >> and we need to safeguard that those cultural values and norms that we have as a nation. [snorts] >> Let me jump the gun. You know this question should have been uh you know towards the uh you know the end post elections post you know you know August you know what do you read into the future irrespective which government you know we going to you know to end up because there are a number of divisive you know issues at play you know right now.

[00:25:16]>> Could you repeat the question please?

[00:25:18]What kind of future do you see post elections >> irrespective of the kind of government we are going to end up? There's no doubt following my earlier inequation that the country is divided >> on political lines >> even on tribal lines. We we have to be realistic.

[00:25:43]We should not put our head in the sand.

[00:25:47]This is a reality facing us.

[00:25:50]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Um one of the trends we noticed in the previous elections certainly anecdotally um was that so many youth came out um to vote >> because they believed that they had a future uh and that their voice mattered and that change was coming.

[00:26:13]um to better their futures because so many youth are unemployed whether they have degrees or not. Um so so many people are even undermployed where they have a job but it's not making ends meet. And I've I noticed in the the the recent stats for um uh we've recently had ECZ announce >> uh the number of registered voters.

[00:26:43]>> Um it would be interesting to compare because I noticed I think it was 46% >> of the registered voters are youth which to me seemed a bit low given the the huge numbers of youth we have in this country.

[00:26:55]>> So it would be interesting to find out whether that is a uh an indication that the youth somehow don't feel that their voice matters because maybe are they staying away.

[00:27:08]These are all things we need to really delve into. Um and if that's the case, it's very unfortunate because the youth are the future of tomorrow.

[00:27:18]>> Mhm. Mhm. Tell me, since we're talking about the the elections, you know, the the party in power, according to the opposition, has done everything to make the playground uneven.

[00:27:33]>> Mhm.

[00:27:33]>> The party in in power, let's face it, is already campaigning, you know, through, you know, the the president. The official campaign starts on the on the 21st and uh it may not be easy according to what the opposition is is saying. The media is very important. I see the president uh making a statement you know that ZNBC should avail itself to everybody. I hope that uh you know you know it works like I'm saying according to the the opposition are saying the ground is uh is uneven even seems to be uh you know you know compromised how do you come up with a free and fair elections in this kind of scenario >> um it's very difficult uh I have to be honest but I think we also have to lay some blame at the door of the opposition.

[00:28:34]>> They've been extremely disorganized and they're not doing themselves any favors.

[00:28:40]Not that I'm supporting one party over the other, but in a democracy, we need to see uh checks and balances.

[00:28:48]>> And if we have a weak opposition, >> it mean those are the people who are supposed to be holding a ruling party to account in parliament.

[00:28:58]>> Absolutely.

[00:28:58]um in between elections. Of course, the citizen also has a duty, but again, within the National Assembly, the opposition's role is to check what [snorts] is happening uh under the ruling party, and we're not seeing that because they're fighting for power, >> which is just not in the interest of the Zambian people. But likewise, the incumbent ruling party should also consider that democracy doesn't work where um you have all the cards.

[00:29:30]>> Yeah.

[00:29:30]>> Because um it goes back to that story of the the the the naked emperor.

[00:29:36]>> Yeah.

[00:29:36]>> Who's walking around without any clothes because um you're so powerful nobody feels that they can they can uh tell you that you're not wearing any clothes.

[00:29:45]>> Yeah. You know, and that's a very dangerous situation for any government to find themselves in because there should be a close connection between those who are ruling us and those who are being ruled. And in fact, it's not even ruling. We're being governed, not ruled. When you say you're ruling somebody, it's a it's like an authoritarian government where you're being told what to do. And if we're not careful, we will we will move from being a democracy where we are governed to being an autocracy where we are being ruled because the incumbent is so doineering and so dominant.

[00:30:22]>> Yeah.

[00:30:24]>> The key question, the people, the citizens who elect these leaders, the semi leaders who abuse them. How can the [clears throat] citizen be served well in a situation like this?

[00:30:43]>> So one of my um one of the things I find very unfortunate in our country is uh a hangover which I think came from the the the unique government [clears throat] which is the saying that bulma bulma.

[00:31:00]>> Yeah. um where you you put uh um you put those who who govern us on such a high pedestal that nobody should challenge them.

[00:31:13]>> Even if it's not in the citizens interests because that's the government they they're acting on our behalf. No.

[00:31:20]>> Yeah.

[00:31:21]>> Under our constitution, it's the people who have the power. [clears throat] And if our government is not performing, is not uh adhering to our national laws and our constitution, [clears throat] then we need to say something about it. Uh then they're not all powerful. We are the ones who have constituent power.

[00:31:40]That is the the the root of where any power in any country comes from. It comes from the people.

[00:31:46]>> And so we must never forget. And we've exercised that power on several occasions um in our country. not just at the ballot box, although we've done so very successfully uh particularly since 1991, but also in between elections. We only have to recall um the Oasis forum and its role in ensuring that a third term was not uh affected by the Chuba government. Uh we we saw how uh the people defeated Bill 10. Um, you know, we we've had various successes as as a civil society, as citizens over the years, which should always remind us that the power comes from us. It's not resonant with uh the government.

[00:32:34]>> Let's revisit u the constitutional process. Attorney General Cavesha was sitted right there when I interviewed him and uh he said this government if it's returned is going to revisit the constitution yet again.

[00:32:55]>> What are your fears?

[00:32:59]Firstly, um when the government told us that they wanted to embark on uh the constitutional reform process that they just underwent with act number 13 of 2025.

[00:33:16]We told them that the timing was not good because we're just about to go into elections and that when you um you hold a reform process that is so close to the election, it stands to be tainted uh by politics because inevitably the incumbent will try and use the process to favor them in an election year.

[00:33:45]And that is what we've seen with um with with what has happened.

[00:33:51]>> Um it's it's really unfortunate.

[00:33:58]>> Yeah. Um, we need to safeguard um our our roles as citizens and not be passive in these constitutional amendment processes >> because we can't assume goodwill on behalf of um those who are driving the process.

[00:34:26]uh particularly if the process is is executive led by um uh the executive arm of the government >> because any constitutional reform process is meant to be peopledriven.

[00:34:42]>> We are the ones who tell the government what we want to see in our constitution >> because that is how we choose how we are governed as a people.

[00:34:54]Now we've when the government told us that they were going to do another constitutional reform process, >> it two things come to mind or a few things come to mind.

[00:35:08]>> Firstly, we've just been through a costly constitutional reform process. We had a technical committee.

[00:35:13]>> Yeah.

[00:35:14]>> Uh that was in place for about two weeks. that was an expensive exercise and um uh has hasn't really delivered on on on what the people want.

[00:35:29]>> So that exercise has not given us any confidence that this new process should the government be reelected is going to be in favor of the people.

[00:35:40]>> Yeah. because the government has shown us that they're misusing the process to give themselves an advantage. And so um there is some fear on my part >> that the same thing is going to happen with this new process.

[00:35:59]>> Um because you know there's no it doesn't appear that there's a genuine >> concern for what the people wanted to see in the constitution.

[00:36:09]>> Yeah.

[00:36:10]Tell me there are fears you know that if the constitution is changed one of the issues you know the government would like to deal with is the term of service you know in terms of how many years a president serves it's a fiveyear term now if you win two terms there are people are saying they could scrub that, you know, and you serve indefinitely until you, you know, you're removed. The other side of the coin is that the length of the term may be extended.

[00:36:55]Are there fears? Do you do you think about that, you know, that it could happen? Is is there chances a realistic uh opportunity for that to happen?

[00:37:08][clears throat] One thing about >> what would be the implications?

[00:37:12]>> Sure. Um one thing about politicians is that they will take a chance so long as nobody pushes back.

[00:37:23]>> And in this 5 years that has passed, we've seen a couple of things. So for example in uh the last constitutional amendment um we now see that is it mayors uh uh have an unlimited term >> um which was not previously the case >> and sometimes you begin to wonder whether this is an action to test the waters >> we saw for example with President Churua >> when he was campaigning for third time >> he never said it himself >> but He sent his ministers out there to test the waters to to see, excuse me, >> what people's reactions were >> to the thought of having a third term.

[00:38:11]>> And so people pushed back. That was that's that's where I'm coming with uh the history.

[00:38:16]>> The Oasis Forum banded together with civil society, with the law association, with the women's movement, with the trade unions, and they all said no. they pushed back.

[00:38:28]>> Now the other signal we've seen with regards to this term limit issue is we've seen um uh ruling party affiliates >> come in the media and test the idea as to whether or not term limits are a good idea.

[00:38:48]>> So these are all worrying signals that Zambians should pay attention to.

[00:38:54]um it may not have happened in this process but it is a real possibility if for example as I mentioned we already seeing that under the the current constitutional amendment the the the incumbent will have an inbuilt majority in parliament so these are all real possibilities if citizens don't push back >> tell me you made reference you know to uh the performance the vigorous response from NOS's.

[00:39:25]Where are these NOS's today? Where is laws, you know, uh, you know, today to speak, you know, for the for the people?

[00:39:35]Where are these organizations that are supposed to be representing the voices of the people?

[00:39:45]I would like to believe um, according to our history as a nation, >> Yeah.

[00:39:52]certainly post 1991 that um when the chips are down um when it's time to rise to the occasion >> um civil society does rise to the occasion.

[00:40:09]>> Yeah. And so I can only hope that um particularly in these 100 days or so that we have left to the >> uh the August 2026 elections >> that civil society uh will band together to ensure that we have free and fair elections and that the rule of law, human rights and democracy in our country is respected and upheld.

[00:40:35]>> I just made reference to uh to law. This reminds me uh LZ has indicated that he would like uh the uh the law on rep you know to be uh you know repealed. Now there's no bell according to the new law. Your thoughts on that?

[00:40:54]>> Unfortunately I can't comment because we're in court of >> Oh you in court over you know over that.

[00:41:00]Let's talk about the contious issue which I should have started with but you know I love the way the uh the discussion has has developed Michael Gonzalez >> you know outgoing US uh you know you know ambassador you know uh made some scathing revelation you know about the extent of corruption in uh in government and he's condemned obviously he's been condemned obviously you know by uh you know the government your thoughts on M >> well firstly let me just say I'm not a diplomat so I can't comment on uh the etiquette >> around >> I [laughter] am >> indeed >> yes the etiquette is questionable >> but let's talk about the message you know instead of condemning the >> message the message >> um this is not the first time that Ambassador Gonzalez has been outspoken about corruption >> uh particularly in the health sector Yeah.

[00:41:59]>> Um and uh if I'm not mistaken in his previous remarks um he's mentioned that he has tried several avenues >> to try and have his voice heard and to receive responses from the government, positive responses uh as to how they're planning to tackle this corruption.

[00:42:21]>> Um if you like the the positive side of his remarks is now these issues have come to light. Yeah, >> we're talking $4 billion, >> which is more than this $1 million billion that the US is offering us >> for health aid in exchange for our minerals.

[00:42:40]>> So, is it making sense? Is it making sense that we are receiving aid >> Yeah.

[00:42:47]>> when we are throwing away money that could save lives?

[00:42:52]>> To me, it doesn't make sense. It means that we can afford >> our own healthare. Meanwhile, we're borrowing from people who are stealing from.

[00:43:02]>> So things things are not adding up.

[00:43:05]>> Mhm.

[00:43:06]>> Um and I think it's incumbent on the government. Of course, they had to respond. Uh I'm not sure about the the the forcefulness of the response but um hopefully behind closed doors they are quietly reflecting on what has been said >> because um >> I always say that corruption should really be a treasonable offense >> because you're literally >> stealing food or medicine >> from somebody's mouth. People die.

[00:43:41]>> People die.

[00:43:42]>> Yeah.

[00:43:43]>> And so, um, we really should, um, think about how we use our resources for the benefit benefit of the widest possible number of citizens in our country. And really uh again this this whole uh debate about aid has come up again uh whether whether we should now be moving more towards investment than than aid. This is perhaps one clearer example where um perhaps we are not deserving if we're not using the money properly.

[00:44:21]>> Tell me obviously there's no political will.

[00:44:25]There hasn't been political will in moles all the governments except perhaps you know during you know you know manawasa. Why is political will not there? We we talking about billions billions you know of dollars at a time when people are suffering >> when cost of living is very very high.

[00:44:48]>> Indeed. Indeed.

[00:44:49]>> Why is there no political will?

[00:44:52]Do you know the one thing that politicians fear more than anything >> is the electorate?

[00:45:00]>> Yeah.

[00:45:00]>> And if the electorate is silent >> they'll they'll proceed whatever it is they want to do.

[00:45:07]>> Yeah.

[00:45:08]>> That is why you always have to remind citizens of their power. They have the power and they are the ones through expressing themselves um and and and and you know expressing a displeasure with things that are not in the interests of of of Zambians.

[00:45:32]>> Yeah.

[00:45:32]>> That is how politicians respond.

[00:45:36]>> Yeah. So we need to take our duty as citizens extremely carefully.

[00:45:42]>> Mhm.

[00:45:43]>> I didn't mention you know that there's so many contentious issues you know related to this uh you know government.

[00:45:51]You did make reference to the health you know ed what are your concerns about this I know you've made reference you know to that.

[00:45:59]Why is there no transparency in such a huge you know issue that is going to impact 22 million people?

[00:46:12]>> Well, I mean I'm constrained to discuss that matter because >> again it's in court.

[00:46:15]>> It's in court.

[00:46:16]>> Yeah. Um but what I would say is that um we we need to hold our governments to a higher standard.

[00:46:30]>> Um democracy necessarily means allowing the participation >> of um citizens in decisions that are made on behalf of citizens. And so um you can't be closed and not transparent about something that has wide ranging implications for ordinary citizens.

[00:46:57]>> I give you two minutes or so to uh just speak to the nation. you know what is your message in terms of governance where we are today and how worried you know are you that especially economically and socially that if we're not careful we're seeing the emergence of two distinctive you know classes they have and they have nots why am I saying this I've seen amazing wealth >> on people in this country >> and I've traveled a lot and I don't want to be misunderstood there are some hardworking people here >> with and the money you know rightly and I've also seen poverty >> you know out there are we looking at a situation if we're not careful if we're not morally concerned that we could be seeing a distinctive of very wealthy people and very poor people among the 22 million. Take that on board in your final message to the people.

[00:48:14]>> Well, I must say that that is already happening in our country.

[00:48:18]>> Zambia is actually one of the most unequal [clears throat] >> uh countries in terms of wealth distribution uh in the world. That means and that means that we have a wide gap between those who are very wealthy >> and the majority the overwhelming majority who live in poverty >> and there's there's there's very little in between. Um and that's why we cannot afford corruption >> because every resource that we have needs to be applied to bring all citizens out of poverty >> and into a situation where they're living in dignity.

[00:49:04]>> Mhm.

[00:49:05]>> And so I just want to remind uh the citizens out there that this is our country. We all belong here. No one citizen is better than the other one.

[00:49:20]And we all deserve a future in which we live in prosperity and dignity as a people. We really need >> to take to ensure that whoever is leading us um bears that responsibility in a manner that shows that they care for the Zambian people.

[00:49:45]>> Message for the election.

[00:49:49]I think I would just say to every citizen that first and foremost people died in this country um to get independence and to get the right to vote.

[00:50:01]>> And so it is incumbent on every citizen to exercise that right in view of our heritage and our history and and and and what that significance means that we can actually freely vote. Mhm.

[00:50:16]>> And we've seen over successive governments that our vote does matter and that we can um decide our fate depending on how we vote. And so I might I just urge every citizen >> to to exercise that right >> um and do so wisely. I know your relationship with uh with God. What have you been telling discussing with God you know this period and if we leave this studio which we're going to do and outside you meet you meet up with Jesus what kind of discussion would you what issues would you raise with him?

[00:51:04][snorts] Um, I think the season I'm in at the moment >> is me saying to God, "Here I am. Send me."

[00:51:18]>> Yeah.

[00:51:18]>> Um because I feel quite strongly about um where we're at as a nation at the moment.

[00:51:33]Um, I think there are some troubling trends that we're seeing in our country >> and um, you know, I'm just urging everyone who feels that way, who who loves our country to really make sure that we have um, what we deserve as a people.

[00:51:58]Miss Cassand, thank you, you know, for coming on on uh my show and uh thank you for being the voice of good governance and the voice for the people. Thank you.

[00:52:09]>> Thank you.

[00:52:09]>> Thank you very much.

[00:52:11]>> This has been simply Frank my guest Linda Cassande who is executive director of LCK freedom you know movement. I thank her you know for uh being our guest uh you know today on uh you know simply you know Frank like I keep on saying you know this is our country you know God planted us uh you know here the best that we can do is do your very best and God will do the rest on behalf of my guest I'm Frank on Simply Frank good night to you Heat. Hey, Heat.

[00:52:50][music] [music] [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat.

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