The DARK Truth About UFO Technology Finally Revealed | Joe Rogan

Added: 2026-05-29

[00:00:00]That's Ray Kurszswe, right?

[00:00:02]>> That's I You Sounds like you know more.

[00:00:04]I mean, you're the you're the uh um uh UAP uh guy here, which by the way is another fascinating domain that I'm learning more about more about.

[00:00:14]>> It's bizarre. Um that's a rabbit hole you go down like, "Oh, this isn't empty.

[00:00:19]>> This is not an empty rabbit hole.

[00:00:20]There's a lot of money behind this." And it seems like there's been a lot of black funding and >> business.

[00:00:26]>> Yeah. Business.

[00:00:27]>> A lot of business. defense contractors involved. Yeah.

[00:00:30]>> And it seems like there's some inventions that sort of emerged out of nowhere >> that supposedly are connected to back engineering programs.

[00:00:37]>> So for So I'm I'm now uh I'm now of of the belief that there exists a capability that transcends uh uh physics as we know it. let's say Einsteinian physics uh and is more aligned with uh Hawkings physics uh that um we can't we don't comprehend right now uh and it has to do with extremely high energy systems and uh I I having I mean I've had some of these guys because I'm now known worldwide as a nutcase I guess and and conspiracy theorist just I've had them on my farm, uh, you know, staying at our at our guest house and and, um, shooting the bull and me trying to understand their world and what they're seeing and what they've experienced and and observed and the information.

[00:01:40]Um, and uh, I'm I'm of there's a lot of different models for what the hell's going on here. And maybe it's all us, right? That's one model. It's all us uh, with with >> secret technology. Um that's one model for the what do they call it tic tacs and uh >> I'm I'm increasingly convinced by the logic that there is a physics beyond the physics that we know that is the physics of extremely high energy systems and in high energy systems a lot of the rules about motion and uh and uh transportation and matter uh in the ability to cross between matter states that is repeatedly observed uh and reported by responsible people uh military folks that have you know strong disincentives right >> for saying this stuff and yet still they're saying that's what I saw okay and >> transmedium devices that can fly and then go underwater as fast as they're flying >> a new energy source that far back which is like what 20 years at this point right um and has never used it to benefit our country or another country to solve the energy crisis, to make a superior craft that we've seen used.

[00:03:03]It's just it's just hard to believe that no one would use that to like fuel their economy. I mean, it'd be it'd be like a total, you know, restart of everything if you had that technology, >> right? Yeah, that's interesting, right?

[00:03:16]I mean, the craft with that that tic tac was going from sea level to 80,000 ft, which is space, and hovering at in space, going back down, hovering at sea level, and doing this for hours. We we don't have anything. The one of the scientists who was involved in one of the UAP programs for the government in my film does the math and says the energy required to do that is the electrical output of the entire United States for I think he said a week some stupid amount of energy required.

[00:03:47]>> I think it's even more than a week but yeah I remember him saying that >> it's it's it's bonkers and I don't think it's human >> trip up.

[00:03:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. And they were doing that all day.

[00:03:56]>> All day.

[00:03:57]>> Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy.

[00:03:59]>> Right. If they had that in 2004, which is the tic tac incident, you would think there would be some just insane progress.

[00:04:05]>> The stuff that Gary's gotten into that I find the most mind-blowing is he has real classified documentation of encounters that military and intelligence officials have had with UAP and biological effects it's caused. And some of them are crazy, like a Department of Defense official who had a UAP above his house and went out in his backyard and looked up at it and then the thing zapped him with the directed energy weapon.

[00:04:33]>> Yeah. It's like we have this very simple understanding of objects and of space and the ability to move around in them and this kind of spectacular technology.

[00:04:46]I think we kind of have to think about it just like all other spectacular technology. Like you if you were around in the 1400s, you couldn't possibly imagine the concept of a nuclear bomb.

[00:04:55]It would be impossible. Or nuclear energy or even a cell phone.

[00:04:59]>> Yeah. Now imagine new breakthroughs happen and now this bubble gets created and we start to figure out how to send things two places through these bubbles and then we realize that what's happening in these bubbles is not what you see on the outside that it's completely warping which is also one of the weird questions like why are UFOs so blurry? Well, that answers that question because you know how says it and how says it and I and I loved when he revealed this because like a just checks the box makes sense. People have trouble taking photos of UAP because they're literally taking a photo through a space war a space-time bubble basically the warping of spaceime. So the analogy would be like you know if you go under the ocean, you take a picture of a fish, you're going to get better visibility.

[00:05:44]You're in their domain, right? You're in their environment, right? But if you go above the ocean, right? you're now in a different environment and you try taking a photo from above the water, it's going to be all distorted and wacky looking because you're taking a photo through a barrier, another environment, right?

[00:06:02]It's the same basic logic. Like try taking a picture of koish from above the water. You can't do it, right? Uh and so >> that's just like the simplest answer.

[00:06:11]Like that's what they're doing. They are warping spaceime in a localized area.

[00:06:14]They're creating a barrier between our environment and their environment. And when you try to take a photo through it, it's not great. Also the reason why radar has trouble getting these things because the radar detector, a radar detector, the way it works is radar is emitted towards an object. It bounces back to the radar detector and that's how you track where it is, right? But the radar is just going around the bubble and it's not going back to the radar detector cuz it's just going around the bubble.

[00:06:42]>> Yeah, >> it's a different environment, right?

[00:06:44]>> And supposedly we can do that now. Well, the interview subjects clearly imply that some of the UA not imply, they state that some of the UAP we're seeing might be our reverse engineer technology.

[00:06:57]>> Might be. And is there is there any theories about other potential methods of propulsion rather than just this bubble? Is anything done in a more traditional way? Are there like is there levels of these things like when it comes to the technological abilities?

[00:07:15]there. Everyone I interviewed that was willing to talk about the technology was convinced this is what they were doing >> that they were all doing >> and it was a unifying and it was a unifying theory. It explains everything we've ever observed like all the the the all the performance characteristics we've observed UAP displaying.

[00:07:33]>> And so the theory is that all of these advanced beings from wherever they're from, the various different species of them that all of them have this particular type of technology.

[00:07:44]Yeah.

[00:07:46]>> Huh.

[00:07:46]>> Which if it's the key to interstellar travel, then >> it kind of makes sense. But it's like, are they all figuring out this? Are they getting it from each other? Like, is this just a natural pathway to curious, intelligent, innovative creatures that they ultimately eventually stumble upon this technology?

[00:08:03]>> Well, one of the one of the things shared in shared I I found fascinating was this idea that some of the craft that we've recovered and adversarial nations have recovered weren't crash crafts and weren't crafts that they caused a crash, you know.

[00:08:18]>> Well, what's really fascinating is for people that don't know your story, you came up with a story. You talked to George Knapp and was it 89 >> 88 >> 88 89 somewhere in there.

[00:08:30]>> Yeah. So late ' 80s you've essentially told the exact same story all these years and then within the last you know 9 10 years we've started to get all these reports there was the New York Times story there was the goast video and the fleer video and all these videos that show a craft that's moving the way you described this sport model moving >> right which kind of freaked a lot of people out with the way it rotated and turned >> rotate. Yeah. Does the belly roll faces the bottom towards where it's want to go and then it it takes off and Yeah.

[00:09:11]>> It's exactly how you described all those years ago, which is really [ __ ] crazy.

[00:09:18]>> Well, that's I mean that's the way it was. But it's just it's it's crazy because you had this story way way way back then and everybody's like, "This guy's just making things up. This is all cockami bullshit." And then you see those videos from these fighter jets and you're like, "Wait a minute. This is It's moving the exact same way he described. It's doing what he described in 1989."

[00:09:44]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:47]Um >> time to take a drink. Cheers. Seriously, >> cuz it's so weird. I can't. I mean, I've had so many conversations with people and you know, one of the things that comes up is, uh, do you think Bob Bazar is telling the truth? And I say, look, I don't know. There's no way I can know, but he doesn't seem like he's lying.

[00:10:06]I've been around a lot of liars.

[00:10:07]>> Look, nobody can know unless you're there. You know, I'm the biggest skeptic of all. Although, if you look at Wikipedia, it says I'm a conspiracy >> theorist or something. It says I'm a faright podcaster.

[00:10:20]>> Yeah. All right. I mean, yeah, it's crazy. But, uh, [ __ ] That's my train of thought now.

[00:10:27]>> Well, they that that if if you like basically, are you a conspiracy theorist? No, you don't even look at this stuff.

[00:10:34]>> Well, you've had if you have a lie, you have one lie and it's amazing because you've told the same one for all these years.

[00:10:41]>> It's a pretty detailed lie.

[00:10:43]>> It's also not normal. Like normally when people lie they get bored with the same lie and then they come up with another lie and there's some other story there some you catch them eventually you catch them there's some cockamamey new thing that they come up with and it's the type of people that are that deceptive I mean it's just it doesn't make sense it doesn't fit the standard model of someone >> well there are other people involved with it I mean this is for the first time Gan Huff finally is on film you know cuz when I had the you know the test flight information. Um he was one of the not one of the he was the first person I told about that and uh you know we were all able to go out and and see it and so everybody knew that I wasn't crazy. Um it was >> and then also all the confirmation that you were being [ __ ] with that you know when you were in the gym they would show up and open up your locked car doors and open up your trunk and leave it there so you'd go out there and see it. They'd go to your house when you weren't there.

[00:11:46]>> Yeah. They were even Right. They were even following George Knapp and and uh >> I mean all of us, anybody that had anything to do with it at that time.

[00:11:54]Yeah.

[00:11:54]>> Uh they were keeping eyes on. It was uh >> not just eyes, but a lot of intimidation tactics, just letting you know, >> letting you know that they could touch you.

[00:12:03]>> Yeah. It's a I I've really worked for decades to push this out of my mind. So, it's always tough to bring it back, you know, and and talk about it. And it's yeah, although it might be funny now, it wasn't funny then at all. Um, it was a really stressful time and still is a very stressful thing for me.

[00:12:22]>> I know it's so many years ago, but do you remember the thought that came in your mind when you realized that it wasn't ours?

[00:12:34]>> Do I remember the thought?

[00:12:36]>> Do you remember the experience? Yeah, I I remember the feeling >> of recogni because initially you saw the American flag stick.

[00:12:43]>> Yeah. When I saw the American flag when I first went in it the first time I went in through the hanger door instead of around the back. Um you know slid my hand across it saw the American flag and I thought, "Oh my god." You know, this explains the UFO nuts. You know, um >> it's ours.

[00:13:01]>> Yeah, this is ours. This is a new top secret fighter. we came up with a new propulsion system and uh you know it it explains everything because I never believed in flying saucers. I thought people were nuts. Um but when they started reviewing everything with me, they were trying I was trying to replace somebody or they were trying to use me to replace somebody as quick as possible. And um they had two directives. One was to directive one was to duplicate the technology with available material at any cost, which is exact verbatim what it was. And directive two was to be able to disable this technology at a distance at any cost. And you know, once you start thinking about that, wait, don't you guys know how the thing you built worked? And it's kind of like they left that out that this, by the way, this isn't ours. And Barry is the guy that filled me in going, "No, no, no. This is an alien craft." And we need to figure out how this works. Look at the technology here. I mean, this is decades, light years ahead of where we are. And uh I I it it was a it was a shock really to me. I remember going home that night and just laying in bed and reviewing everything that everybody said that day.

[00:14:32]And uh I really don't remember how I felt the following days, but I it was just a different it was just a different feeling >> like the world just changed.

[00:14:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> Yeah. It was >> I don't know. I really can't put it into words.

[00:14:52]>> Well, I couldn't imagine I couldn't imagine what that experience is like.

[00:14:55]And it's also very strange that they would bring you in and not specifically state to you that this is not ours. They just bring you in and just give you a directive. This is your what you are trying to accomplish.

[00:15:08]>> Well, they gave me the they gave me a bunch of briefings. Everything was moving at a very fast pace and I don't know why. Um, I think I mentioned in the movie, uh, right prior to I got there, the there were Russians involved and it, you know, from what I can ascertain, there was an exchange of information and then we discovered something something of great importance and of course kicked the Russians out and just held on to that information ourselves and uh, there was kind of a knowledge vacuum there.

[00:15:43]There was also an accident and I was told I was replacing someone uh that was injured. I believe he actually died. Um >> there's no record of who this person was or has anybody tried to figure it out.

[00:15:56]>> I don't know. I don't have any names. I just know that Barry told me, you know, I'm replacing somebody that he used to work with and he was without a lab partner for a while. So when I came in there, um >> how long is a while?

[00:16:09]>> I don't know. But I mean that brings up a good point.

[00:16:13]First of all, we're dealing with alien or another civilization technology, whether it, you know, it's from another dimension, another time, another planet.

[00:16:23]I mean, who really knows? Um, so I'll eventually get to answer the question here, but uh, wouldn't you think this place would be more like the lunar receiving lab where everything is white? You know, so you can see a speck of dust. There's everything is sterile.

[00:16:43]People are being extremely careful with what they're doing, but you're not seeing that. This is in now something akin to an aircraft hanger in the middle of the desert. There is dust on everything. People are taking everything nonchalantly. There's a there's a freaking poster about the thing, you know, they're here poster there. Um, >> and thank you Luigi for getting me poster.

[00:17:07]>> We got to figure out a place for that and put it in here somewhere.

[00:17:10]>> It's awesome. But but I mean, they went to the trouble of making a poster. They actually >> I think right here.

[00:17:15]>> That's a good place.

[00:17:16]>> Right. That's a good spot right there.

[00:17:18]Um, but the uh I mean they actually cut one of the amplifiers out of the craft.

[00:17:23]So that my point is >> this is in the film as well. You can see.

[00:17:26]>> Yeah. But my my point is it's so nonchalant at this point when they first had it. It had to be at that level and they became so used to it, so familiar with it that you know to them it just became like another you know fighter aircraft or something from another country. So it's uh it must have been there a long time is what my point is because look as soon as you have something that unique You don't let it just sit there in a hanger and be exposed to the environment and have security people walking by and people touching it. I mean, it's in an isolated, sealed, secure environment.

[00:18:15]And they were past that. So, I think it had been there for a decade or decades, a long time. And these guys were intimately familiar with it, not afraid of it, you know, and knew what was going on. So they essentially had gotten just completely acclimated to the fact that this craft exists, that it was there, and there had been relatively little progress as far as figuring it out and figuring out what it does and how to recreate it. So it just kind of sat there and so I think they were making very little progress. And I think they kept going over the same road again and again and they probably had other experts there and just didn't and I think the reason I got hired is because I was a guy out in left field that didn't necessarily follow what was going on. I mean the biggest distractors in the in in in you know to me anyway in the story um are other scientists other physicists.

[00:19:19]Well, they would have hired me because I'm the top guy in the field. Yeah, you you probably are. But I think they hired plenty of you guys and you just kept going down the same road and didn't do anything. I think they were looking for somebody that just would have some radical idea and just to push the, you know, the project forward because everything had stalled when I got there and it was I I think they were just in a desperate move to make some progress.

[00:19:44]One of the things you talked about in the first podcast that I think is really important is that the only way for science to really progress is that these various scientists have to be able to communicate and you have to be able to share ideas and you have to be able to collaborate. But that's not how this was run because it was so top secret.

[00:20:05]Everything was compartmentalized.

[00:20:07]like the metallurgists weren't talking to the propulsions people who weren't talking to if there were biologics experts like everybody >> super frustrating super frustrating because I I think I I don't remember exactly where that started again it's 40 years ago but I think it started with uh with the seats and uh no it it started with the actual skin of the craft because everything looked like it was made from the same material and I wanted some information um about you the skin the superructure of the craft and they said no that's that's restricted what's you know we we need a reason for you to I I just want to see if everything is exactly the same material and what I call the seats in the craft I still don't know if they're the seats but they might be I think it'd be hilarious if they were actually something else um but I wanted some information on those and that was restricted information too. There were other groups working on that. So they compartmentalized stuff so much. There was no exchange of information between any groups. I mean you could submit a written response that your supervisor in my case Dennis would have to carry over and they would have to approve and you know you'd get a two or three line response from you know the other group.

[00:21:29]But it's it's just that's not how science works. science works on the free exchange of information and it they they were just killing themselves with security and uh it was it was really frustrating. It was terribly frustrating.

[00:21:45]>> So was this a function of security people people that are concentrating on top security that don't truly understand how collaborative science works?

[00:21:53]>> Yeah, that's it right there. You can stop right there. They had no idea how that works >> because it stands to reason that whatever that thing was made out of probably in some way interacts with the propulsion system and whatever controls that are in it that this material has to be particularly unique.

[00:22:17]>> Exactly. That's exactly my point. And I suspected the material was an electric.

[00:22:23]You know what an electric is?

[00:22:24]>> No.

[00:22:25]>> Okay. You know, like a magnet, a permanent magnet is like, you know, it's a magnet. It's forever.

[00:22:32]It's a magnet. It has a magnetic field.

[00:22:35]>> An electric is a material that has a permanent static field to it, a static electric field to it. And I strongly suspected that's that the craft was made out of an electric. And I was not because again that's the material science guys. I was not allowed to connect that to but that's a that's so important to connect it to the propulsion system and how the propulsion system uh interacts with the amplifier or the emitters and I just I I wasn't allowed you know the information I needed. So it was uh >> I don't know it it it was self-defeating. However, there's just been recently a bunch of new data that came up about things that happened a decade or two ago or in yeah inside the last decade that really changed that picture and that was it was things like the Merlin Burough scans that that correlated other scans and also reported on yeah there seems to be a metallic object down there and this isn't you know this isn't sort of crazy emerging science. This is a a legitimate company that is using technology that's been well established in defense and in in the UK defense. It came out of the the UK military as a technology that's been more or less proven. So, and the guy that that Tim Acres, rest in peace, unfortunately, he's since passed, but he uh you know what he said about this object, like he's he is a credible guy to to say this. He he doesn't draw conclusions about what it might be, but it's definitely it's not wood. It's not stone. It's metal. It's not unlike other metal that he's seen. Although they couldn't classify what exact type of metal it is, but he said, "Yeah, there is a in this central atrium cuz the labyrinth has multiple levels and it's it's almost like you're imagine yourself standing in a shopping mall and and you have that central atrium where you can see all these levels and it's like this big central chamber that connects to these multiple levels. It's open. It's at least 40 m long. And it's really tall. And in the center of it is what's more than 40 cuz it contains this single sort of 40 piece 40 m long object that's sitting in there.

[00:24:40]>> And that's where you get into the alien camp.

[00:24:42]>> Well, that 40 40 m tic tac shaped metallic object.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah. What is that thing?

[00:24:47]>> Well, >> and what kind of metal?

[00:24:49]>> We don't know.

[00:24:50]>> Imagine if it's titanium.

[00:24:52]>> Could be. He said it didn't match any signature that he'd seen before.

[00:24:56]>> That's crazy in and of itself. It's one of the things I'll remember always about when you were sitting here talking to Bob Lazar and he said that some of those craft came from archaeological digs. I mean, this is part of his story. There's long been rumors of that type of stuff in, >> you know, in uh under the ground in Egypt. I don't I'm not saying that's what it is, but this is what Yeah, this is what Tim said about it.

[00:25:17]>> Be amazing.

[00:25:18]>> It would be if there's a UFO down there.

[00:25:20]All layers converge at a central corridor avenue like the atrium of shopping mall where you can see all floors from one vantage point. My personal interpretation is that this entire hall was constructed to house a centrally positioned freestanding object about 40 m long. The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant diplotica skeleton in the hinty Hall of London's Is that Did I say that right?

[00:25:48]>> Yeah, Hints, I think. hints hall of London's natural history musician uh museum. It could be anything. Its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring. And what is a shen ring?

[00:26:03]>> It's like the cartou. You know that the thing around a cart?

[00:26:06]>> Oh wow. Big object alone raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there? A more speculative theory is that it's some kind of portal. Oh boy.

[00:26:14]Now we're going we're going full tinfoil. either interdimensional or interstellar, a Stargate. Its material signature is like unlike anything I've seen in my entire career, but it's there undeniably there. I'll let the future find out what Dippy is. Tim Acres. Well, that's He went full art bell right there.

[00:26:35]>> He did.

[00:26:35]>> Interdimensional or interstell Stargate.

[00:26:38]>> Let's go back to those uh hieroglyphs, Jamie. Um the the lizard guy, the frog guy or whatever that reptilian thing is.

[00:26:46]>> Mhm. That freaks me out.

[00:26:47]>> Oh yeah. It's the stuff of nightmares at times. It's It's kind of weird >> because that's You know, one of the things that the weirdest when when they the weirdest stories when they start talking about aliens is the the different types that visit, >> right?

[00:27:03]>> And that one of them is a reptilian species that are the the most creepy to deal with, >> which makes sense.

[00:27:09]>> I heard the same thing. It would be Yeah. I mean that reptilian reptiles on Earth >> like chickens are [ __ ] you know, >> right? They are. and so are Komodo dragons and the idea that somehow or another they could eventually reach incredible levels of technological sophistication and intelligence. We kind of rule that out, but look, there's there's clearly primates that are way dumber than us, right?

[00:27:29]>> Oh, for sure. So, why do we assume that it's only primates that reach an incredible high level of sophistication when we know that crows, which are really [ __ ] close to dinosaurs, >> crows, >> super smart, like like smarter than most kids.

[00:27:45]>> Yeah. Problem solving smart. Yeah.

[00:27:47]>> Yeah. It's I you can't Yeah. I don't think you can you can't put a a a restrictor on what evolution might produce.

[00:27:54]>> Not at all. any of these things, >> especially when intelligence is being exhibited by >> things that are really close evolutionarily to reptiles.

[00:28:01]>> Yes. Yeah. And that would just be Yeah.

[00:28:03]You get to that like just lack of empathy, just that reptilian brain. It's just aggression and like everything that's not us is the enemy kind of.

[00:28:09]>> That's the mind [ __ ] is smart dinosaurs.

[00:28:11]>> Oh yeah.

[00:28:12]>> I mean that was in Jurassic Park, right?

[00:28:14]The raptors. They were smart. Yeah. They were smart >> which you know makes sense.

[00:28:19]>> Yeah. It's that whole pack. Yeah. The instinct. The idea that there's that we were visited by intelligent reptiles is [ __ ] bananas.

[00:28:27]>> Yeah, I put look with the aliens, I don't often address it. I I I but I put it firmly in the realm of of like possible like it's just I don't I think when you you look at the vastness of space and the length of time the fact that we've you know we're just we're just this crazy you could there could have massive civilizations galactically could have risen and fallen a million years ago and we just weren't part of it and that's a literally a blink of the eye in these in those sort of time frames. We just it's it's not surprising this the firmy paradox right like how come we haven't got like firm proof or anything even though people will say we have but it's like yes there's it's it's the length of time like we can rise and fall that span of a million years is just nothing on those time scales and you know you can civil whole species can rise to massive prominence and then just be nothing but dust at the end of that period of time >> and you got to try and do that across what 14 billion years and even that's in question now because the James web telescope seeing stuff that's supposedly way older than that now.

[00:29:26]>> Right.

[00:29:27]>> So, what year was your incident? And you you have a very very famous incident that's corroborated by actual evidence, which is one of the rare ones. What year was it and where did it take place?

[00:29:39]>> So, it was 2004, November 14th of the It's really, if you draw San Diego to Insinata, Mexico, we're about 60 mi off the coast in between the two. We're doing workups. So when we get ready to deploy, this was for the 2005 deployment that we were going at sea for November and December of 2004. So we had been out I had just taken over the squadron mid-occtober. So I'd been the CO for a month. So we go out uh and we're putting the battle group pieces together. So it's not just the airwing, but we're you know we're on the carrier, we've got the cruiser, we've got all the support ships out there, and we're going to integrate all the defenses and train as one unit.

[00:30:18]So the exercise that we're going to do is an air defense exercise where there's good guys, bad guys. They're all from internal from the airwing. So the bad guys today are going to be the Marines, VMFA232, the Red Devils. So they're going to launch and they're going to go about 100 miles south of the ship and we're the good guys and it's we call it 2v2. So it's two of us against two of them. And we're going to work with the USS Princeton, which is going to be the controller. And they're going to control the blue forces. And then the red guys are going to give us a presentation that, you know, they're going to try and intercept so we can stop them from getting up towards a carrier. So that's kind of the training set that we're all good. So the Marines take off first and they start heading to the south. Now, we have no idea that for two weeks, this the two weeks we've been at sea, they've been tracking these things coming out of the sky. And when I talked to the Princeton controller, he's like up to about a dozen of them. They would come down from above 80,000 ft. They'd drop down to about 20,000 ft. They'd hang out, and then they'd go straight back up after about 3 or four hours. Now, when you say they've been tracking them, who specifically?

[00:31:15]>> This is the USS the Princeton was tracking them. They saw them on the Nimmits radar and the E2 could see them.

[00:31:20]Um, so because they're out there, you know, that radar is on all the time. And the spy one system on an Eegis cruiser is, you know, the state is probably one of the most sophisticated systems in the world.

[00:31:30]>> So, typically when something like this happens and there is some unexplained phenomenon, what do they do? uh in this case that you know to if it was if we were in a threat environment they would tell us but we're off the coast of San Diego it's it doesn't come to the airwing so we have no idea that these things are out there at all >> so they observed these things and they never bothered telling any of you guys >> that's correct >> so they just knew that these things had been visiting this area >> but they just allowed this training exercise to take place anyway >> yeah talking to them the previous for the two weeks they would show up but it was when we weren't flying so the typical carrier schedule is you know for us it was about noon to midnight. It's a 12-h hour day. There's reasons for that.

[00:32:10]It can go a lot longer. They can, but for training, we just do the 12-hour day thing. And it's cyclops, so you got guys taking off and landing periodically. So, we were on one of the first goes, you know, it's, you know, noon, 1:00 somewhere around there, and we take off.

[00:32:23]The Marines take off first. And my buddy Cheeks, who's the CO of the Marine Squadron, was one, he was leading the Red Air. They had when he launched off the carrier first, they called him up and said, "Hey, what have you got on board?" Well, the the small the original legacy F-18s don't have as much gas as the Super Hornets. Super Hornets's about 30% bigger. So, they start talking to him about fuel and based on how long we're going to be airborne and everything else, they go, "Hey, why don't you just go ahead and proceed to your your cap point?" And because we had just taken off and that's when the controller had come up and said, "Hey, I forget our call. It's probably like dealer is usually what we went." So, it'll be like dealer 11. Uh this is uh Prince and Control. What do you got? You know, say your load out. And I kind of chuckled. He said, I said, "Well, I got a CATM 9, which is a it's a basically just a blue metal tube with a seeker head for an A9 IR missile. It's a training. It doesn't come off the airplane. You can beat it with a sledgehammer. That's the only way you're going to get it off or you got to unlock the lugs with a key." So, I'm like kind of chuckling. He goes, "Well, hey, we're going to cancel the training." So, we're like, "Okay." He says, "We got real world vector and they're going to send us out to the west." So, picture if it's uh you know, if you got a clock, the Nimtts is in the middle. Uh we're a little bit south of that about 40 miles south and then the Marines are about 100 miles south of the ship about 60 miles between the two of us. So as this is all happening my wingman is joining up right and these are F18s. So there's two people in each jet. So it's me and my Wizo which is a weapon systems operator and I've got the other pilot and the weapon systems operator in the other jet. So they tell us all this, hey we're in a real world vector and they send us out 270 about 60 miles away from where we're going. So now we're going out even further out to sea. We have no idea what we're intercepting. And this is when the the controller starts talking to us. He says, "Hey sir, we've seen these objects. They've been for two weeks.

[00:34:07]They've been coming down." And he's giving us the whole story. He says, "We need you to go investigate. We want to know what these are, >> but they're asking you to investigate in a jet that's unarmed."

[00:34:15]>> That's correct.

[00:34:16]>> Okay.

[00:34:16]>> Yeah. We have no And there's reasons for that that we don't fly. We typically don't fly with live ordinance unless we're actually going into like a combat zone or we're on a training range and we're going to shoot something. And the reason is you can go through history of the Navy or Air Force. If you put live missiles on airplanes and then you start doing training where you're squeezing the trigger, someone always messes the switchology up and someone gets shot down. It's happened multiple times. So, we don't do it. You know, there's times that we do, but it's rare. So, we start flying out to the west. Now, I want you to think because the other pilot has a you know, when you talk to it's it's out there. It was a female. When you talk to her, it's uh here's the kind of goes through the mindset of Hey, we're off the coast of Mexico. Real world vector.

[00:34:59]We have no idea what we're going to look at. Probably drug runner because you get the drug runners coming up the coast.

[00:35:04]So, we're like, okay.

[00:35:06]>> So, we drive out and the they're calling down ranges. So, they're telling us, hey, it's 270 at 30 miles at 20,000 ft and it's, you know, and then you just count down the ranges and we're talking back and forth the whole time. So, they get to a point where they say, "Hey, merge plot." Which means radars have resolution cells, you know, range and azmouth of what the radar can actually see. Once you're inside that box, you can't tell the difference between me and the object I'm going at. We're just become one big blob.

[00:35:35]>> So they call merge plot. And so the other jet is on my left hand side. Um, and we're going to I'm going to go to a clock code to make it simple. So the object we're going to end up looking for is in right in the middle of the clock and we are at the six o'clock position.

[00:35:49]and my wingman is off to my left side.

[00:35:51]So, it's she's further down with her wizo. So, as we're looking around, we we look to the right and there's a it was yesterday was a perfect example out here. The water is perfectly calm, no white caps. I mean, it's literally a perfect San Diego, California day. And we see white water, something like if you see a seamount, you know, rock underwater when you're standing on the shore and the waves are breaking over it and you're like, "What is that?" It's usually because there's a rock under the water. So, it looks like that, but it's about the size of a 737. It actually kind of has a shape of like a cross and it's pointing to the east. So, you've got the long part going east west and you got a couple things going north and south. So, as we're looking at it, because that kind of draws our eyes, we're like, "Oh, that's kind of odd." We look down and the the Wizo in the other airplane comes up and says, "Hey, Skipper, do you?" And that's about what he gets out of his mouth. And I'm kind of looking at the same thing. I go, "Dude, do you see that? What is that thing?" And what we see is this white tic-tac- looking object just above the surface of the water pointing north south and it's going north south east west. It's just radically moving forward, back, left, right at will. And it's moving around the disturbance the the white water that we see.

[00:36:59]>> How big is this thing?

[00:37:00]>> So over time it's about 40 ft long. And the way I estimate that is I mean I got a lot of time fighting other airplanes.

[00:37:06]So it's about about the size of a Hornet fuselage. So that's why I say 40 feet.

[00:37:10]And this thing's just going left. So the first thing you see when you look down you go and this is with our eyes it's not sensors right so we're looking down at this thing and first thing you think is helicopter right there they they helicopters typically stay below 200 feet when we're out there and they're just driving around we're pretty far away from the ship for a helicopter for one of ours. So what is it? So the first thing you look for is rotor wash. You know if you've watched any TV show that starts kicking the water up and you can see that it's really easy to see from the air. So we're like no rotor wash.

[00:37:37]Matter of fact don't see any rotors.

[00:37:39]Don't see any tail rotor. I don't see any, you know, the main rotors. They're like, that's kind of weird. So, as we're driving around, we're looking at this thing. We get to about the 9:00 position.

[00:37:48]>> How far away are you from this thing?

[00:37:50]>> I'm at 20,000 ft and it's right down on the surface, right off our right side.

[00:37:53]So, I'm probably maybe a couple miles lateral and 20,000 ft. And we're just watching it move around. And >> so, it's very small in your eyes.

[00:38:02]>> Um, not overly small. I mean, an airplane down that low, it's 40 feet, you can see pretty well with it was pretty clear.

[00:38:09]>> So, I'm like, okay. So I said, "I'm going to go check it out. That's what we're trained to do." The other pilot says, "Hey, I'm going to stay up here."

[00:38:15]And I'm like, "That's perfect." So now we we'll get some separation. We'll get it from different views. And the other airplane will kind of have a god's eye view of everything that's going on as I go down and check this thing out. So I start driving around and it's still doing its forward, back, left, right.

[00:38:27]It's still pointing north, south. We get to about the 12:00 position. I'm just in a nice easy descent. A reason, you know, because I've been asc aggressive. You can, but when you're out over water, the water looks the same at 20,000 feet as it does at 2,000 feet. You don't, you know, so you can easily put yourself in a non-reoverable position if you're not paying attention and you go into the water. So, I got this nice easy descent.

[00:38:49]I get to about 12:00 and as I'm coming down, you know, I I could guess probably about, you know, 18,000 ft now, a couple thousand feet below the other airplane.

[00:38:57]The tic tac just kind of rapidly goes boop and turns. So, now it's kind of pointing east west and now it mirrors us. So, it's above the surface. We're up high. We're coming down. It starts coming up.

[00:39:09]Like, well, this is getting interesting.

[00:39:11]So, we kind of drive all the way around a circle. I'm descending. It's coming up. And I get over to about the 8:00 position of the on the clock. And it's over at about the 2:00 position. Well, the quickest way, as we know, as kids to get someone, you know, you can keep going around the circle, nothing's going to happen. You cut across the circle.

[00:39:26]So, I'm about I don't know, probably 2 to 3,000 feet above it. And I just kind of drop my nose aggressively and I cut across the circle and it's coming this way because I'm trying to fly to where it's going to be because I want to join on it. I want to see how close I can get to it.

[00:39:39]>> Right.

[00:39:40]>> And as I'm pulling up, it's kind of starting to cross my nose and it starts to accelerate and within about less than a second as I start to pull nose onto it and it crosses right in front of me, it just goes poof and it's gone.

[00:39:53]So I call the other airplane. I said, "Hey, do you guys you guys see that thing?" And they're like, "Sir, it's gone. We don't we don't see it at all.

[00:40:01]So I'm like, "Okay, that's kind of weird." So we we don't see it. We're looking. At the same time, I say, "Hey, let's turn around and let's go back to see what was in the water." You know, there's was there something there. So we turn around. We're right there. We haven't gone anywhere. It's gone.

[00:40:15]Water's perfectly There's no white water, nothing. It's just blue. We're like, "Okay." So we turn back around.

[00:40:21]Now we're heading back out towards the east. And I tell the controller, I said, "Well, I said, uh, you know, I first said, I'm kind of weirded out." And I told my my backseater that and we start heading back and the the controller on the Princeton comes up, says, "Sir, you're not going to believe this, but that thing is back at your cap point." That was our original point where we were going to hold 40 mi south of the ship.

[00:40:41]So, this thing has went from wherever we were at to, you know, about 60 miles in, you know, maybe 30, 40 seconds. It's already over there. And it just, and they didn't track it. it just appeared.

[00:40:54]He just it shows back up on their radar and they go, "It's here." So, we're like, "Okay." So, we fly back. We don't see it. We don't see it on our radar. We don't see it on any of our sensors. We do like two runs and we come back to the ship and land. So, as we're in our it's we call it the PR shop. We're taking off our flight gear. One of my crews is getting ready to go out and I think they were going to be on a tanker mission, but they had a a targeting pod on board.

[00:41:19]So, they launch off and we're telling him about this before and I and uh the backseater uh Chad says he's really deter he's going to find this thing. So, he tells the pilot, "Hey, we're going to find this thing." So, they're just out driving around and in the backseat of a Super Hornet uh there's no stick, but there's sidestep controllers and they're to control the sensors because that's what the weapon systems guys do. And they can change displays really fast by just hitting a button. It'll flip from the radar to the targeting pod. And the way the system actually works is when you see something on the radar and you designate it as your primary target, all the other sensors will look at that point. So it's everything is kind of synced together. So he picks up a hit on his radar and he goes to lock it up because I've watched all the tapes. He goes to lock it up and immediately the radar can tell it gets signals back that it's being jammed. So and technically jamming is an active war. It starts jamming the radar. Goes into a jam extrapolate. A bunch of stuff happens on the scope. Well, he's smart enough to castle to his targeting pod and he takes a passive track and that's the video that you see of the tic tac where it's just sitting in the middle of the screen real quiet. Um, so he does that and he and he goes through, if you watch the video, if we had it, I'd go through it with you, but they go through all the different modes. So, he goes, it's an IR and an EO. Eio is TV. It's black and white TV camera.

[00:42:35]>> We do we can get the video, right?

[00:42:37]Online.

[00:42:38]>> Mhm.

[00:42:38]>> Yeah, let's let's get the video, Jamie.

[00:42:40]Where would you uh can't show it to anybody? We can't we can't show it on YouTube, but you can see it and people will be able to go to it. You know what we'll do? Go to the video and we'll tell people when we're starting and we'll tell people what the title of the video that you get to is and they can sync it up themselves if they're watching it.

[00:42:59]>> It's publicly owned. Sorry. It's it's publicly owned. It's, you know, American government released it. So, it is actually something in the public domain.

[00:43:06]>> So, you think we could play it on YouTube and not get pulled?

[00:43:08]>> Yeah, >> 100%. You think so, Jamie? It's a government. those things. I would say yes, we should be able to, but sometimes those things get messy. So, I just >> Let's take a chance. Let's take a chance with this one.

[00:43:19]>> I know if you go if if you find a New York Times article, there's a link to it.

[00:43:22]>> It's a Pentagon release.

[00:43:23]>> YouTube is crazy with copyright stuff and we we've always been like two steps away from getting pulled off of YouTube completely. It's a real disaster. It's I I understand from their perspective there's a lot of legal issues they have to deal with, but >> I have it on a private server. Or I could maybe send J.

[00:43:41]>> The issue I believe though is the actual copyright of the video itself.

[00:43:44]>> Oh, it's just it's a Pentagon >> Pentagon released public domain.

[00:43:47]>> And the Pentagon's going to come after us.

[00:43:49]>> I don't think so, but I don't think so either.

[00:43:52]>> Did you find it?

[00:43:53]>> I just I want to find a good version of the video that doesn't have somebody else. Yeah, I've got a unwatermarked version. Let me just look it up and send it.

[00:44:00]>> Jeremy will give it to us.

[00:44:02]>> I have to figure out how to send it to you right here. Give me a second. And >> do you have uh AirDrop or could you airdrop it? Yeah, but I got it on a p I got it on a page, a private page I can send Jamie.

[00:44:12]>> Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Do you have Jamie's uh info?

[00:44:15]>> Uh, no.

[00:44:17]>> Okay, I'll figure it out.

[00:44:18]>> You can send it to me and I'll send it to him. Okay, >> that's pretty easy.

[00:44:22]>> Um, sorry to disrupt the momentum.

[00:44:25]>> No.

[00:44:25]>> Um, but uh I think this it's probably important to be able to have this uh the the video itself so you could just talk about it.

[00:44:35]And um we're about to uh yank it up here. Okay. Jamie wrote it down for you.

[00:44:41]>> Thanks. Give me a second to get it out.

[00:44:42]>> Okay. And for people who don't know, Jeremy uh also produced uh Bob Lazar, Area 51, and Flying Saucers. And he was in here when we had Bob Lazar in talk about Bob's experience. And Jesus, if that wasn't a gamecher for me and for a lot of other people. This is a subject that it's so easy to mock. You know, this is why I think it's so important that we talk to people like you because like I said, just your average everyday UFO crackpot, they believe everything and anything. Have you did you had you ever had any UFO experiences before this?

[00:45:21]>> No. The irony and I I tell this story.

[00:45:23]My mother-in-law, she'll be listening. She she literally every time I would go home, she would ask me, "Hey, do you see a UFO? Do you see a UFO?" And I'd be like, "No." And when I first started dating my wife, she was a big like National Inquirer. She had all the the the you know, supermarket tabloids and I would always just feed her crap for it. So this happens and you know and um I never say a word. So my friends all knew it was a great story over beers because they go, "Hey, what's the coolest thing you ever saw?" I go, "I chased a UFO." And they go, "Get out of here." I go, "No, seriously." And I tell them the story and they're like, "Dude." I go, "Yeah."

[00:45:54]So, I go home and and uh I had got asked by Lou Alzando to do the New York Times article, which as like anything else, I always say no. Like, it took a bunch of times to get me on your show. Jeremy kept asking, asking, asking and it was >> Thank you, Jeremy.

[00:46:08]>> It was You got to thank my contractor's wife, Angel, who we were at a party drinking and she goes, "You got to do Rogan." I go, "What?" She goes, "It's the biggest podcast on the planet." She goes, "You got to do it." And I go, "All right, I'm going to do it just for you.

[00:46:18]I'm going to do this show." So, >> shout out to Angel.

[00:46:20]>> Yeah. From New Hampshire. So, um, so my mother-in-law, we're sitting there and and I know the New York Times article is going to come out and and so I'm was at Thanksgiving in 20 when the article come out 17. So, it was Thanksgiving in 2017 and everyone had kind of left the house.

[00:46:36]So, it's just my wife and my in-laws, a couple of us sitting in the kitchen and I said, "Hey, I got to tell you guys this." They said, "What?" I said, "There's going to be this article comes out in the New York Times and I'm in it." And they're like, "Yeah." I go, "Well, I chased a UFO." My mother-in-law is like, "Haha."

[00:46:50]She looks at my father-in-law. He's rolling his eyes, looking at me like, "Are you serious?" And I go, "Yeah, yeah." And then uh she's like, "You never told us." I go, "I never really told anyone." I mean, my wife and kids knew the event happened, but they didn't have all the details because it's just one of those things we just didn't I just didn't get into.

[00:47:04]>> Is it classified? No.

[00:47:06]>> Was it at any point in time?

[00:47:08]>> No. There's a lot of rumors out there that it was classified and the ship got locked down. No, it wasn't. It was We were never Men in suits did not show up.

[00:47:17]Um, no one told us not to talk about it.

[00:47:19]And this is because there's a lot of other people saying other things and I said just look at it like here's the context. So in the battle group you've got the admiral, you got the captain of the ship, the captain of the Princeton and then you've got the other cos. So in positionwise I'm probably as a co of a squadron in the top 20 out of 6,000.

[00:47:41]And no one came to talk to me. No one came to take my tapes. No one showed up in a suit. No one told me not to talk.

[00:47:47]No one talked to any of my air crew that were involved in this. All there were six people total involved, the two that shot the video and the four of us that looked at it for five minutes with our eyes. No one, nothing. It just uh and I can get into how uh you know there's a report that uh that George Knap got released. It's a I call it the unofficial official report. Um and I had met someone and I'm like, "Hey, can you find anything out? I had this incident."

[00:48:13]And normally you you tell people this, they look at you like, "Dude, what are you smoking?" And I'm like, "No, no, I'm good. I'm tested." And they go and and they said, "Well, let me let me see what I can do." And I had got a call. Um I was working I was doing some aerospace work and I had gotten a call on my cell phone from a guy and he said, "Hey, I want to investigate your incident." And I go, "Okay." So he did. He investigated the incident and it was very very thorough. I mean, if you've read the it's about 10 pages long. And he I mean, he tracked down everybody. He tracked down all the people that were the air crew that were involved. He talked to he tracked down the admiral. He talked I mean he it was a pretty thorough report.

[00:48:54]And I didn't think anything of it, you know, because you know the people are worried it's out there so they want to do foyer, but it was never released in a foyer request. I actually had the Navy call me. I'd been out of the Navy for like six years. And >> what's explain to people that means uh freedom of information?

[00:49:08]>> Freedom of information. So, I got called uh by a public affairs person from the Navy and said, "Hey, is this Commander Fra?" And I said, "Yeah." They said, "Hey, do you know of any documentation on your UFO incident off the Nimmits?"

[00:49:21]And I said, "Official?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "No." Cuz I knew the report existed, but to me it was an unofficial because I didn't know who where it went. I and I had a copy of it, but because it wasn't official, well, then years later I find out that the guy who actually did the report was part of the ATIP team. And I was talking to Lou Alazander who runs that program. And Lou showed me the documentation of the original. I think it's like 13 people that were part of ATIP and they were foy exempt. And I'm like, well, that's kind of well, hey, I know that guy. He's a guy that did the report, which is why it never came out until uh George got his hands on it.

[00:49:55]>> How does something Freedom of Information Act exempt?

[00:49:58]>> Um, obviously DoD has the ability because I I'm a I'm not a conspiracy theory person at all. I mean, I'll just tell you that, you know, and I think there's reasons that the government doesn't tell the public everything. Um, and I don't speak for the government, but I think there's a good reason for that. That not everything needs to go out to the public, but most of it does.

[00:50:16]And they just what they do is they put a clause on, hey, for this program or whatever we're doing, which would been an ATIP program, the work that they do and what they find is not it's not releasable through Freedom Information Act. There's probably other avenues to get that, you know, and then you go, well, what really is Freedom Information? Because I got into this on a I was talking to someone who's a conspiracy theorist and they said, "Well, so and so wrote and they're not getting any information on your event."

[00:50:36]I said, "So what are they going to do?

[00:50:38]They're going to call up. You're going to put in your request for for freedom information." You go, "Here's what I want." It goes to some poor guy at the Pentagon who's like, "I have no idea what this is." And he searches around.

[00:50:47]He doesn't find anything. He looks at his bud and I get an offer you. I go, "Hey, Joe, you got anything on the NITS incident?" And you go, "Nope." And I go, "Okay, well, I didn't find anything. I looked. I did my due diligence, but I'm not going to spend the next six months of my life doing your research project for you, right?

[00:51:00]>> So, and you get nothing and then you assume the government's covering up when the government really isn't. They just, you know, the guys doing the research doesn't know where it's at or doesn't have access to it.

[00:51:08]>> Makes sense. Um, Jamie, we have the video.

[00:51:11]>> Okay, here we go. Now, explain what what is what are we seeing and why we seeing it in this uh this particular >> Okay, so we'll just kind of go around.

[00:51:19]So if you look at the uh don't OPR is operate in the top left corner N is narrow field of view which is zoomed in uh IR at the top middle it means it's in infrared mode. So instead of seeing color you're seeing temperature variations.

[00:51:35]>> Okay.

[00:51:35]>> And these things are extremely sensitive to in like tens of degrees they will tell you the difference to color. So it'll go from black to white. So in this case white is hot. So if you look down in the bottom left corner it says WHT.

[00:51:46]Um >> that's white. That means white is hot.

[00:51:49]So the object that you're looking at is hotter than the sky around it. But what you also notice is there's no plumes.

[00:51:54]Now if you're looking at an airplane, when you get closer, you'll actually see the exhaust coming out and there will be a a really glowing plume. That's important as as we look at the video.

[00:52:01]And then the most of the stuff on here you really don't need to know. What you can look at is uh the bottom right corner. It says 19,990 and a B. That's the altitude. And u if you look up in the little words where it says HDG and then B, it's autopilot. So it's on altitude hold. just flying uh for that.

[00:52:19]So you can go ahead and play the video.

[00:52:23]And so those two bars next to the white object, that's a that's a that's a passive track. So what he's done is he's commanded the fleer to track that. So what the system does is it uses uh it's actually tracking it can track pixels and it's just basically blocked those hot pixels, those white pixels from the black ones. And you're going to see now, pause it real quick. So over at the top, see it went to white screen with a black object. This is a black and white TV mode. And if you look at the top, it says TV. So narrow in TV mode is actually you can get closer than narrow in IR. It's literally narrow in IR is about medium in TV mode. So there you can get closer with the TV mode. So as you look at it now, in this case, you would actually start to see um stuff going on. And even in TV mode, because you get exhaust, you know, the black exhaust that comes out, you'll usually be able to see kind of some of that coming out of the back. And you don't see anything. This thing's just sitting there. And if you look at the uh the top where it says three, right, that's the pod is looking three degrees right of the nose of the airplane, right? So he's just flying along. The bottom numbers, don't worry, those are time. So it's 4156. So go ahead and hit play.

[00:53:26]And what what he's doing is he's going Chad's going through all the different modes because he's like, "Oh, I got it."

[00:53:31]And he's going to try and see the best video that you can get. Now, there's rumors that this video is like 10 minutes long. No, what you're looking at is the entire video. Now, notice where it says 99.9. Mhm.

[00:53:41]>> So, hit pause real quick. What that means is the while he's got the pod, the targeting pod, because that's his primary sensor right now, the radar is still trying to look at this object and trying to range it. And the radar can't get ranging on it. So, the object is doing something to say, I'm not giving you back because it's just a Doppler radar, just like a police radar is a Doppler. It's trying to get a ranging on you, and it can't do it. So, when it says 99.9, the radar cannot see this object right now.

[00:54:05]>> It's not allowing it to get ranging. And I think that's super important, Dave, the way he explained it to me. Active jamming compared to passive jamming.

[00:54:12]This is a technology that is actively jamming this system >> rather than something like stealth aircraft, which is the shape and the texture of the >> Yeah, it's like the It's like the [ __ ] UFO hearings up on Capitol Hill, right? I don't know how many times I've had to sit and listen to, you know, I I've seen some stuff. I can't tell you what the stuff is. It's hidden stuff, but I've seen some stuff.

[00:54:37]>> I know. I get so tired of it all.

[00:54:39]>> Yeah. And And I think there's I think there's there's something out there, right? I'm not, you know, again, I I you know, I I agree with you in the sense that, you know, we we're certainly not the only ones out here floating around, right? Um I don't know what it means. I don't know whether we've been visited or anything like that, but every time there's a, you know, UFO hearing, it's this it's sort of that same thing. is that tanalyzing like oh look he's talking he's talking and then it's about the release of those documents though that seems to me that that's something that you would document like so yes rather than say I killed JFK I'm going to write what do where do I sign instead of that it's more that's more tangible like the if the government had recovered some crash in 1947 in Roswell New Mexico and it really was an alien spaceship that seems like something they would document you know I I agree and I think that's I think that's worth pursuing in a in a big way. They should look there needs to be more transparency about it.

[00:55:38]Um but and it's also the same like with the the COVID files. If there's such a thing as COVID files, but sure, go through and look, I mean, transparency, you know, to the degree that you can where, you know, you're not releasing national secrets that are going to get people killed, great. But um the Epstein files, you know, so I think there's there's real value in saying we've got because the government always overclassifies, always overclassifies.

[00:56:03]And you know it's and it's unnecessary and it creates you know this this this distrust I think half the time of of you know the Yeah. They just like what the [ __ ] that we don't believe anything you're saying now. So release everything.

[00:56:15]>> Um let the chips fall. I I I cuz I don't think honestly I don't think there's a lot of you know information there. But I do think with the UFOs all the documentation of of uh and the investigations that took place of of unknown sightings. Um, but it's still going to not convince people that we're not holding on to, you know, crashed >> right >> spaceships.

[00:56:35]>> Well, when you've got guys like David Grush, you know, who's the whistleblower that comes out and says, "Not only do we have >> these ships, but we have biological entities."

[00:56:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, then, you know, maybe explain yourself a little more, right? I mean, you've already come out. You kind of like opened your kimono a little bit. let's, you know, [ __ ] say what do you know and then put it to rest. Maybe you got an obligation to do that, right? I mean, >> I think he wants to according to him, >> but >> he has to get clearance.

[00:57:05]>> He's already Yeah, he's already he's already pushed that door open, right? I mean, I mean, as an individual, right?

[00:57:10]So, >> he's explained on the podcast that he's authorized to say what he's already said, but nothing more. And he has to be very careful. But then again, it's like, how do I know?

[00:57:18]>> Yeah.

[00:57:18]>> How do I know that's not horseshit?

[00:57:19]>> I know it's and that's and that's the problem. And that's going to be the problem with the release of the files is >> also going to obscure some sort of a government propulsion system that's like 50 years ahead of anything we could imagine. That's how I would do it. I'd obscure it by saying, "Oh, there's some [ __ ] alien technology that's available and >> we don't really know how to use it." But they do visit us from time to time and occasionally they crash.

[00:57:40]>> Well, they came over to New Jersey.

[00:57:42]Remember the drones over New Jersey?

[00:57:44]>> Right. But now the Trump administration has said those were they were running some tests and those were ours.

[00:57:48]>> Yeah.

[00:57:49]>> Yeah. So, why wouldn't the Biden administration say that? What the hell?

[00:57:52][ __ ] You know, I mean, what's what's new?

[00:57:54]>> Maybe you should tell me.

[00:57:55]>> Well, I do know, but I'm not I'm not I'm not authorized to say.

[00:57:58]>> We got to get you in a skip.

[00:57:59]>> Yeah, but I know some stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:01]Yeah. I just can't say this stuff.

[00:58:02]>> So, when did you get interested in the subject of UFOs?

[00:58:08]>> That happened at a surprisingly early age. I was 7 years old at a uh boarding school and the principal of the school, a friend of his had photographed video uh an old realtoreal Kodak movie camera, taken a movie, a home movie of a video of a UFO flying in beautiful blue skies, cumulous clouds, huge golden disc that that comes into the picture and banks, goes into a cloud and it disappears into this sort of wispy cloud in a way that would be very very hard I think to to fake somehow particularly in those days with no computer generated imagery and it comes out the other side and then sort of goes off over the horizon and I was you know stunned and flabbergasted and myself and all the other kids ran outside that night and were looking at the stars and it just uh uh sparked my curiosity a lifelong curiosity. So once you got into government and once you were I mean you were there you're basically there you had to start asking questions like did you wait a while like how long did you ask for? You're like hey what do you guys know?

[00:59:22]>> Yeah. Uh well uh for a long time I waited um very rarely. I looked for openings I look for opportunities.

[00:59:29]So, uh, for example, you know, the stigma is is so great that you're reluctant obviously to, uh, to raise that issue. A couple times there were some natural opportunities. So, uh, one of my colleagues on the intelligence committee was going to Hawaii for some oversight uh, trips, meetings, and he went to the Maui uh, space optical tracking facility. And I said to him, "While you're there, why don't you just check and see do they ever see anything weird they can't explain and so forth."

[00:59:59]So he did and uh Pete called me up and said, "Hey, you wouldn't believe this.

[01:00:03]I've got this videape here and it's shows these weird things." And so I talked to the Air Force people. They sent the tape to us. Turns out it was totally unclassified. Um, I showed it to Senator Cohen uh and some others and it ended up on uh on national TV um actually, but but didn't generate uh any further response. Everybody just kind of threw their hands up in the air and said, "Well, you know, that's interesting, but uh we don't know what to do with it." It was a Ted Cppel's Nightline show that this tape was played on. And it showed sort of five objects moving parallel to the ground possibly in formation. They're in the atmosphere because they're burning. They're interacting with something. U you know there plasma coming off them. Um which wouldn't presumably be happening in space, but they seem to be too slow to be meteorites. So it was mystifying and difficult to explain. Never did get an answer. Um occasionally something like that would happen, but by and large the issue almost never arose.

[01:01:09]the the the issue is a weird issue because if you bring it up in the wrong company or at the wrong time, you could be dismissed as a loon. Did you feel that when you were there? like as a person who had a budding interest in unidentified flying objects and and what have you, did you feel like this is a politically risky thing to discuss especially to discuss like in serious terms like do you believe in these things like what are they what do we know is was that an issue?

[01:01:43]>> Absolutely. Um, I concealed my interest in the topic uh for years and uh very carefully and confided to a few trustworthy friends, had a few heart-to-heart talks with a couple individuals when I found a fellow traveler who was interested in this topic, but by and large uh absolutely uh wanted to conceal that and and not reveal that.

[01:02:07]>> Did you know Clinton?

[01:02:08]>> No, not he would be the guy that I would go to.

[01:02:13]There's a request that came to me once that I think was from President Clinton and it was one of the astronauts claimed to have seen um a UFO out at Edwards Air Force Base and it was videotaped he said and he described this in his memoir and wanted the president to get hold of the tape of the video and Secretary Cohen came back to the Pentagon from a ing and a message came down to me to go to try to find this tape and uh unfortunately there was u I got got nowhere with that.

[01:02:50]The air force was adamant that there was no such tape. There was no such information. Anything they had on UFOs have been destroyed. Um, so I had one of these situations that's very common in this area, which is you have just two apparently credible sources, but utterly conflicting, irreconcilable information, which seems to happen often in this field. Now, being as you were in government and very close to literally the machine that runs the world, what what's the general perception when people are discussing these these things in in Washington?

[01:03:31]What is what's the general perception of what what's going on with these things?

[01:03:35]>> Well, I'm happy to say that it's changed that perception has changed considerably in the last few years. People feel like they have permission to talk about it.

[01:03:41]>> When do you think this happened? This happened after the New York Times article and subsequent press uh beginning in 2017, December 2017.

[01:03:51]>> And um that sort of gave people permission to talk about this. And I've actually had Pentagon friends who said, you know, this is kind of cool. We don't have to go in the closet to talk about this anymore.

[01:04:02]>> What do you think kept it in the closet before? Like when did the stigma start?

[01:04:05]Do you think this was like intentionally sort of set up this way? It was uh it was the Robertson panel commissioned 1953 and they concluded during the those cold war days that this was a a potential threat to national security because UFO reports might overwhelm our our air defense and communication system and that the Soviets might spook the public and somehow manipulate this issue. So they actually advocated in writing that uh this issue be debunked and discredited and the government uh went ahead and did so um extremely successfully unfortunately >> and this all started with the project blue book. Correct.

[01:04:48]>> Correct. It was during that era.

[01:04:50]>> So uh what was the gentleman's name that was running project blue book again? Um >> well there were different people astronomer Ellen Heinick.

[01:04:57]>> Heinik and Heinik went on to become a believer. So he started debunking and was told essentially the way he reported it was that he was told to kind of debunk every single case, everything he could find, whether it was swamp gas or, you know, ball lightning, find some way to to explain this away. But then once he left Project Blue Book, he started openly discussing these cases and he started discussing his own belief.

[01:05:24]>> That's correct. and and he felt badly burned as well because he was trying to carry out uh his mandate that the Air Force had given him. As you may recall, in one instance, he went to Michigan and famously declared that the people of Michigan were misconstring swamp gas for for flying objects. Yeah. And so Gerald Ford, who is representing that district, got insensed, as did the local population. And Congress took a fleeting interest in the topic. And uh Dr. Heinik was very embarrassed um and understandably so. It was really uh quite insulting to these to these people who had uh had very clear sightings of these objects. So um he did eventually um change his view publicly and was very critical of of project blue