Quran Word of God? Muslim Logic COLLAPSES Under the Uncreated Word Challenge

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:04]Where in scripture doesn't say that Jesus wasn't involved in the creation of the world?

[00:00:08]>> Um, John 1:1, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was >> scripture.

[00:00:13]>> Okay, so fair enough.

[00:00:15]>> The the And the word the word became flesh and dwelt among us. That's Jesus Christ.

[00:00:19]>> So Jesus was there >> The word.

[00:00:21]>> The word. So that's what I'm saying.

[00:00:23]>> So Jesus is the word.

[00:00:24]>> Yeah, so what when I'm talking about this topic, I'm I'm doing like for like.

[00:00:28]I'm doing Jesus for Quran.

[00:00:29]>> No, but hold on. You said first there was the word.

[00:00:32]>> Yep.

[00:00:33]>> The word was >> With God.

[00:00:34]>> With God.

[00:00:35]>> And the word was God. Yep.

[00:00:37]>> saying that is Jesus.

[00:00:39]>> Yes.

[00:00:39]>> Okay.

[00:00:40]And so >> be God and be with God?

[00:00:42]>> Who created the word?

[00:00:44]>> There is no creation of the word.

[00:00:46]>> was there.

[00:00:47]>> The word was there.

[00:00:47]>> is eternal.

[00:00:48]>> The word the word for the Christian and I will also probably say for the Muslim is that that word is is that is God's expression.

[00:00:55]>> But then God would >> That that expression is always with God.

[00:00:58]That's his expression.

[00:00:59]>> The word is the word created or uncreated?

[00:01:02]>> It's uncreated.

[00:01:03]>> The word is uncreated.

[00:01:04]>> It's uncreated. By the way, just to clarify, when you say word, we're not talking about um, like language and speeches and all of that.

[00:01:11]>> I'm talking about what the Bible says.

[00:01:12]>> We're talking about yeah, the the understanding the expression of who God is.

[00:01:17]>> Hey, but just tell me something >> The only what the Bible says.

[00:01:20]>> No, the word is logos that's used in the Greek and that means like reason, understanding, knowledge. Like it's the expression of who God is. It's it's the informa- like For you to know God, right? You would For you to know God, you would need to know his logos. That's why Jesus can say the only way to the father is through me. Because he And then when he says things like if you've seen me, you've seen the father because he perfectly expresses the father. He's the true word of God.

[00:01:45]>> If I see you, have I seen the father?

[00:01:47]>> No, I'm not uncreated. I'm not I'm not the word of God.

[00:01:50]>> But the Bible says he has created us in his image, right?

[00:01:53]>> Yeah, being created in his likeness and then Jesus being the only begotten son are two different things. I'll try and give an example.

[00:02:01]I'll try I'll try and give an example, right? So, when we look at the Quran, right?

[00:02:07]For anyone to say that it it of any or it it it on in any way is like you can say it's the word of God. It has a unique position in creation.

[00:02:19]Because if you say that it's like every other created thing, >> Right.

[00:02:24]>> just like you said, the mud, the trees.

[00:02:26]If it if it's like every other created thing, then why are you going to that for inspiration of God? It has to have some sort of some sort of special place in creation. Now, the reason and it's unique it's unique to all of creation.

[00:02:39]>> You don't only go to >> Yeah, but the only way to go to Allah is through the Quran. The only way you would know Allah is through the Quran.

[00:02:45]>> Well, >> We can you can get to you can get to a being of God or the first creator without um without without scripture, but you would never know who this God is. Like for example, you will not know that Allah has the attribute of speech without the Quran.

[00:02:58]>> Yeah.

[00:02:59]>> Exactly. So, if you want to know who Allah is, you need some sort of revelation.

[00:03:04]>> But, you are attributing the attribute of our speech to God.

[00:03:11]>> I'm not Well, I don't think I'm doing What do you mean by that?

[00:03:14]>> Do you believe God requires actual vocal cords and sound?

[00:03:20]>> that No, no, that's why I said the words when I I said earlier the word is not like language. The word is not like some sort of formed sentence structure.

[00:03:28]>> Yeah, forget the word. I'm saying speech now, right?

[00:03:31]>> Well, no, not Well, you're you're the guys that say that Allah has the attribute of speech.

[00:03:35]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:35]>> Right? We say that we say that God has God has an eternal word. It's a different thing.

[00:03:40]>> But, this is what I'm trying to clarify with you of attribution, right?

[00:03:43]>> Right.

[00:03:44]>> Of of what that actually means. Does that make sense?

[00:03:47]>> For you, the attribute of speech will have to The reason how you know he has attribute >> Attribute sound.

[00:03:51]>> No, but you but Well, it has to be connected to the Quran in some sense cuz that's the only way this attribute of speech is actualized.

[00:03:58]>> The for example, time. Yeah?

[00:04:01]Uh time is attributed to us.

[00:04:04]>> Okay. God is outside of time.

[00:04:05]>> God is outside of time.

[00:04:06]>> Yeah.

[00:04:07]>> Does that mean that he doesn't understand time?

[00:04:10]>> No.

[00:04:10]>> He's outside of it.

[00:04:11]>> No, he created it.

[00:04:12]>> So, how does he know how it feels to be in time?

[00:04:16]Does that make sense?

[00:04:17]>> Well, I I think we're derailing a bit, but >> We're derailing a little bit.

[00:04:21]>> I I could say that well, Jesus is God and he enters into time so he gets to experience time.

[00:04:26]You know?

[00:04:27]>> No, but I'm trying to I'm trying to >> He gets to experience time inside and outside. That's why again we say God is our perfect mediator.

[00:04:34]>> But but I'm trying to explain to you that God a true God, forget Quran. Yeah? Even forget Bible, honestly. I'm not trying to disprove the Bible.

[00:04:43]>> So, we want to go back to >> I'm trying to say >> Okay.

[00:04:46]>> that for for a creator >> Yeah.

[00:04:49]>> to understand its creation >> Yeah.

[00:04:51]>> it shouldn't need to experience what it has created to understand what it's created.

[00:04:57]>> Agreed.

[00:04:58]>> Right?

[00:04:58]>> But for us for for but if he wants his creation to understand him, right? Then something else has to happen because we are not infinite, right?

[00:05:09]We will never be able to grasp him.

[00:05:11]>> What do you mean by infinite?

[00:05:12]>> We're not we we we are not we're not infinite, we're not eternal. We we are not >> the word infinite because it's not mentioned in any religion.

[00:05:19]>> Yes, I'm saying we you know, we create we're finite. What I'm saying is we're finite. So, we're flesh, right?

[00:05:24]>> Yeah.

[00:05:25]>> So, for us to understand the um for us to understand the infinite, right? We would there's nothing we can do to reach it, to understand it, comprehend it. We can only get so far, right?

[00:05:36]>> The infinite in the sense of the eternal?

[00:05:38]>> In other words, God. We can only get so far on our own with understanding God as created beings. We can only get so far.

[00:05:46]This is >> Because then that would be saying that uh half of the philosophers that >> No, no, once I said so far, they all all the philosophers can get to a point of okay, there's a creator.

[00:05:58]But how this creator behaves, what he cares about, what his attributes are, >> But that's what I'm saying.

[00:06:05]>> All of that stuff must come through revelation.

[00:06:08]His nature, what he hates, what he doesn't like, that must come from you cannot synthesize that just by looking up at the stars and working it out.

[00:06:15]>> No, but looking at >> No, but I'm not I'm not I'm not going to say looking at the stars, but Yeah, pondering, looking at maths, you can only get to there's a being. Yeah.

[00:06:26]Yeah, but you you can't get to Allah just by pondering.

[00:06:28]>> can think you can think >> Can you get to Allah just by pondering?

[00:06:31]>> I believe so.

[00:06:33]I don't believe you can get to the word.

[00:06:35]Well, actually, I believe if you you can even get to the word Allah.

[00:06:39]Just by pondering.

[00:06:40]>> But you won't know if he has an attribute of speech or not.

[00:06:44]>> Well, what would you mean by the That's what I was trying to clarify what you meant by the attribute of speech. As in communication, he would have that, absolutely.

[00:06:51]>> But how how would you know that without him communicating?

[00:06:54]>> Because I have it.

[00:06:56]I have the I have the ability to communicate.

[00:06:58]>> So are you So you believe you're made in the likeness of Allah?

[00:07:01]>> I believe I believe, yeah.

[00:07:03]>> You see that You see that there?

[00:07:05]No, cuz I can say I'm I'm made in the likeness of God, but are you made in the likeness of Allah? Cuz if you're not, how can you attribute speech to him?

[00:07:12]Yeah?

[00:07:13]>> made in the likeness of Allah?

[00:07:15]A dog?

[00:07:16]>> No, I >> Do you see my point? This is where This is where other religions talk of the likeness.

[00:07:21]>> So then you don't know >> A tree is made in the likeness of God, technically, right?

[00:07:26]>> No, only we are said to be made According to Christians, are said to be made in the likeness, right? Humans, right? Which is why he would obviously give us dominion over the world and so on and so forth, and we're stewards of it. But for you, that's what I'm saying.

[00:07:39]Yeah.

[00:07:40]Yeah.

[00:07:42]You know, you can't How do you can't >> Because if if he's nothing like his creation, >> Yeah.

[00:07:47]>> right? Then you can't be >> He's not like it. I'm not saying he's like it.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah, yeah, if he's nothing like it.

[00:07:52]>> But the attributes Yeah?

[00:07:54]>> But the attributes Are the attributes separate from him? Are the attributes separate from him or >> No, I I showed I I showed you that if you had the attribute being strong, I could not separate your strength of you.

[00:08:04]>> Yeah, but you won't know if I'm strong unless I demonstrate it.

[00:08:08]>> But you won't Like I showed you, you don't have to physically demonstrate in front >> I would have to do it. I would have to >> If me and you were locked in a room, only me and you >> And I just said I'm strong.

[00:08:16]>> And you said you're strong. Yeah, no, no, hold on. There was a stone there.

[00:08:19]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:08:20]>> And I could not lift.

[00:08:21]>> Yep.

[00:08:21]>> And we're locked in the room, right? I turn around 1 second, I turn back around, the rock moved.

[00:08:26]>> Yep.

[00:08:27]>> I'm going to be like, "Who moved it?"

[00:08:28]>> And I'd say it's me.

[00:08:29]>> You're going to say, "You." I'm not going to say, "No, no. Surely somebody has come from outside and moved this rock."

[00:08:35]>> Okay.

[00:08:35]>> Or that this rock got up and levitated itself. I'm going to say, "Okay, you moved the rock."

[00:08:41]>> So then Okay, so then we go back to his speech. We say that Allah has an attribute of speech like I've got my attribute of of strength. We're both in a room >> Yeah.

[00:08:50]>> For you to be For you to say, "Yeah, he has the attribute of speech." How do you get there? So in other words, me moving the rock and I say, "Yes, I did it." You can say, "Okay, he's got the attribute of strength."

[00:09:01]>> Yeah.

[00:09:02]>> Where How do you get to, "Ah, he's got the attribute of speech."

[00:09:06]>> Well, cuz he's spoken.

[00:09:07]>> Right.

[00:09:08]>> Yeah.

[00:09:08]>> So that means he's spoken to somebody.

[00:09:11]>> Yeah, but this is what I'm saying. What When I say spoken, it doesn't need to be uh this linguistic version of uh air and uh vocal cords and sound uh being expressed.

[00:09:25]>> Then what is it?

[00:09:26]>> Communication.

[00:09:27]>> How do you communicate?

[00:09:28]>> Cuz speech is in communication, right?

[00:09:30]>> Okay. So communi- You're saying that he communi- So again, the question is >> Like a deaf person, a deaf and dumb person can't speak, right?

[00:09:36]>> They do their sign language.

[00:09:37]>> That's speech.

[00:09:37]>> But they're still referencing something, right? When they're doing their sign language, they're still referencing a language. They're still reference All the signs >> All the prophets got references, no?

[00:09:47]>> Right. So, then when they're communicating for your for the communication to happen >> For it to >> happen just like we're in that room.

[00:09:54]>> be a created version of of the communication.

[00:09:58]>> There has to be created version of the communication.

[00:10:00]>> For for the creation to receive it.

[00:10:02]>> And who's creating this created version of the communication?

[00:10:05]Right. Is that created version of the communication, right? Is that different to all of creation?

[00:10:12]Is it the same? Is it the same category?

[00:10:14]Would you say >> Say that again.

[00:10:15]>> So, that created version of communication >> Yeah. It's different to the creation.

[00:10:20]>> It's different to the creation.

[00:10:21]Interesting. In Christianity, we say that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. He's unique in all of creation.

[00:10:28]>> Okay.

[00:10:29]>> There's nothing like Jesus Christ in all of creation, right?

[00:10:32]No, there's nothing like Jesus Christ in all of creation because he is the only begotten son of God. So, there's a uniqueness between between Jesus the creation and the rest of creation.

[00:10:41]>> why I didn't want to go into scripture because there are other begotten sons of God in scripture.

[00:10:46]>> No, he's not.

[00:10:47]>> There are, right?

[00:10:48]>> No, Adam was made.

[00:10:50]>> No, no, but forget Adam. There's another guy that was begotten I don't know his his name off the top of the dome, you know, but there were there is another person.

[00:10:57]>> The only two the only two people you could make You could make that claim to is Adam or Jesus.

[00:11:02]>> No, there's someone like Bal- Bal- Balson. Do you I don't know the name off the top of my head.

[00:11:07]>> Okay.

[00:11:07]>> There's another guy in the Bible, yeah?

[00:11:09]I'm not I I don't know the reference off the top of my head. That This is I guess to this point hearsay, but >> Okay.

[00:11:16]>> I have heard that the the the Bible reference another person who is the begotten son of God.

[00:11:22]>> No, there's only No, I I I I I I will I will say categorically the only the only the only begotten son of God >> Yeah. But then the issue is Okay, the issue is you're turning scripture for that, yeah? If if now I go to that scripture and I find that there is another begotten son, what happens then?

[00:11:37]>> Well, you need to find it for me.

[00:11:39]>> But if I do, what happens then?

[00:11:40]>> I You won't.

[00:11:42]>> But if I do.

[00:11:43]>> There's no if here. I'm telling you won't.

[00:11:44]>> If I do. If I do.

[00:11:46]>> You won't though.

[00:11:46]>> See that we we end up going into a problem.

[00:11:49]>> But but the reason why we need to go to >> Like I'm arguing this without Quran.

[00:11:52]>> Yeah, but yeah, but if you but if you're arguing it without with the Quran, you can't say that that that the God has a has an attribute of speech.

[00:12:00]You can't. If you're arguing it without with the Quran, all you can The most you could say is that this God is has got some sort of power.

[00:12:07]>> Okay, look, is speech attributed to communication?

[00:12:11]>> For I think for Muslim it have to be.

[00:12:12]>> For anybody, for a human, is speech attributed to communication?

[00:12:16]>> Not necessarily, but for a Muslim it would have to be.

[00:12:19]>> So you're saying there can be a speech that exists in the created world, there can be a speech that exists that is not attributed to communication?

[00:12:26]>> No, no, no. We need to No, no, hold on, hold on.

[00:12:28]>> This is my point.

[00:12:29]>> No, we Any sort of communication >> Yeah.

[00:12:32]>> is an expression of whoever's whoever's expressing themselves.

[00:12:35]>> Yeah.

[00:12:36]>> Whether you do that by talking, whether you do that by sign language, even my facial expression >> is speech.

[00:12:41]>> is communication.

[00:12:42]>> Right.

[00:12:43]>> Right.

[00:12:44]>> Is that speech though?

[00:12:45]>> Well, you if you're It's what you define as speech.

[00:12:49]>> right? It's all within the definition.

[00:12:50]>> so if it's all within the definition, how does >> I'm trying to keep it to simple to some degree so that we don't get lost in the definitions. Because if then we find two definitions that mean the same thing, right? And they have two separate words, and I'm saying no, it's this word and you're saying no, it's that word, where do we go? What do we just forget the words and say our definitions >> even without even getting into the the word the word speech, what what it is is that you've said that he has this attribute of speech. So the question is what is that?

[00:13:19]>> What is the speech?

[00:13:20]>> What is that?

[00:13:22]>> I That's the thing. I can only understand it as far as saying it is a communication.

[00:13:28]>> How do you know that he has it?

[00:13:30]>> If I if I can if I can describe it more than an attribution, then it is not God.

[00:13:36]>> You You have no way of What I'm The point is The only >> That's what I mean though.

[00:13:41]>> Well, that The only way that you would know >> outside of Islam, yeah?

[00:13:45]>> No, it It can't be because you have the Quran.

[00:13:47]>> But I'm saying outside of Islam.

[00:13:49]>> Yeah, but Okay.

[00:13:50]>> If I can describe it, yeah?

[00:13:52]>> But you can't describe the Quran.

[00:13:54]No, but you You can't describe the God without him revealing himself.

[00:13:58]Or you could get Like I said, all you The only point you can get up to just by like we said, the philosophers and so on and so forth is that there must be some prime mover. How powerful Yeah, how powerful he is, whether he cares about us, you know, whether he loves us, whether he has an these attributes or that attribute, is completely unknown unless he then reveals himself. But the revealing of himself has to be You then you got to tell me how you Okay, wait, wait. You got to tell me how you get the fact that Allah has an attribute of speech. How do you get to there without the Quran?

[00:14:29]>> Let me try, yeah?

[00:14:30]>> Okay, without the Quran. Okay.

[00:14:32]>> Okay, I'm a layman, remember that, yeah?

[00:14:34]I will I will try. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:36]>> Yeah, but I'm more of a layman than you are, I guess, yeah? Let me try.

[00:14:40]Look, if we know, yeah, that to create something intelligence, you need intelligence, yeah? Then we can infer straight away that that is the most intelligent being, right?

[00:14:54]>> Okay.

[00:14:54]>> Then we have to think. Now, with that intelligence, will he need knowledge to create, right? Right? Then we can attach that attribute as the most knowledgeable, right?

[00:15:05]>> From that knowledge and that intelligence, right?

[00:15:10]Would he be able to derive communication, speech, language, feeling, expression, fairness, justice, all the other attributes? Can they come from that attribution?

[00:15:24]>> But don't you see >> Can they?

[00:15:26]>> They can, but don't but don't you see, you've had to look at creation and liken creation in some sense to the creator.

[00:15:33]>> I can only work backwards.

[00:15:34]>> Yeah, but do you see that? But that's against Islam. You can't liken anything in creation to to Allah, can you?

[00:15:39]>> saying I'm not saying Allah is like his creation.

[00:15:41]>> No, but you are but what you're doing is you're taking things in creation and saying >> I'm not saying that my knowledge and God's knowledge is the same knowledge.

[00:15:49]>> But it's similar.

[00:15:50]>> I'm not even saying it's it's I'm not even saying it's remotely similar.

[00:15:54]>> Then then you can't say that he has knowledge in any sense.

[00:15:57]>> I'm I'm speaking in my understanding.

[00:15:59]I'm saying in my understanding, my finite brain >> Yeah.

[00:16:02]>> Yeah, can understand this much knowledge and in that much knowledge I must know that there is a different knowledge, a divine knowledge, right?

[00:16:14]>> But >> that is that is unlike mine, but that is able to understand mine and that my mind is trying to emulate but is not it.

[00:16:24]>> Yeah, but they're related. You you you've said a lot of things there.

[00:16:27]>> They're related.

[00:16:28]>> But then you that that is you're likening. That's what's happening here.

[00:16:31]>> though, because because relation and likeness is not the same.

[00:16:35]>> The re the re I think relation and likeness is the same thing.

[00:16:38]>> so you're saying that in Islam they believe that the creation is not related to the creator.

[00:16:47]That would be a a false analogy that in itself >> Yeah, but we don't be likened to.

[00:16:51]You cannot liken you you >> You cannot liken it. I so I cannot say that God looks like me. I cannot say God thinks like me. I cannot say God smells like me.

[00:17:00]>> knowledge like you.

[00:17:01]>> walks like me. I can't do anything like me.

[00:17:04]>> Right. So then when you say so when so when you say so >> is an emulation.

[00:17:09]>> No, but that's like. That's like.

[00:17:11]It is. Because you're saying you're saying I do this like this, therefore he must do this like that.

[00:17:17]You are likening something that you're doing to what he does. That you're you're you're For you to Without the Quran you're you're you're having to do that.

[00:17:25]>> I'm not saying because I do it like that. I'm looking at the entirety of creation. I'm not looking at humanity.

[00:17:30]>> Or any part of creation. You're saying because a creation is like this in some sense, the creator must also be like this in some sense.

[00:17:39]>> No, because I'm only using knowledge and intelligence.

[00:17:42]>> Mhm.

[00:17:43]>> Yeah? So, I'm saying that there is a a divine knowledge and intelligence.

[00:17:48]>> Mhm.

[00:17:48]>> Yeah?

[00:17:49]And from that point, I might be saying that because I believe I have an emulation of it, yeah? Then therefore, there must be a divine >> How do you know you have an emulation of it?

[00:18:01]>> I don't know.

[00:18:02]>> You don't know. So, you don't know you have Exactly. You don't know for sure that you have an emulation of anything, number one.

[00:18:07]>> You can't be sure of anything.

[00:18:08]>> Okay.

[00:18:09]We're not going to go all the way to the skeptic view.

[00:18:11]But okay, but the point is is that for you to even >> We fall into are we actually here?

[00:18:15]>> Yeah, I know. I know. I know. But what I'm saying is for you to say that okay, I think that there's I'm emulating something.

[00:18:21]>> Right. But for you to say you think you're emulating something, that means you think you're behaving like something. You think you're expressing something, right? If you're expressing something, you are saying that you are expressing something like someone else is expressing it. You may not be doing it as good or as better or as greater, but they're still For you to That's the thing. Without the Quran, you are still having to try to For you to understand God, you're still looking into creation to get a likening to then understand and say okay, the creator must be like X because this is happening in creation.

[00:18:52]>> Okay, look, yeah? Do you believe that there are gaps in communication?

[00:18:56]>> What do you mean by gaps in communication?

[00:18:58]>> in created communication. Do you believe that there could be gaps that exist?

[00:19:02]>> Give me an example. Like, what do you mean?

[00:19:05]>> If I give you the example, I answer the question for you.

[00:19:08]>> Yeah, I don't know I That question I want to know what you mean by a gap in creation.

[00:19:11]>> Yeah, we spoke earlier about uh sign language.

[00:19:14]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:19:15]>> Uh text messages.

[00:19:17]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:19:18]>> Uh the internet, all of this uh nonsense. Uh like you said, uh facial expressions.

[00:19:24]>> Yeah.

[00:19:24]>> Uh some people use scent, some people use smoke signals, some people use >> Of course.

[00:19:30]>> So, tho- all of those were created where gaps of commu- where there were gaps in communication, right?

[00:19:37]>> Okay, you mean by you mean by more precise communication? Is that what you mean?

[00:19:41]>> No. No, because well, >> All of them were commu- all of them were communication.

[00:19:45]>> Yeah. Yeah, precision did increase with some >> Yeah, I think >> I I'm not I'm I don't disregard that, but I'm saying sometimes there was just a gap in communication. So, for example, it wasn't that it was more precise in the sense that if you were in another country, me and you could not communicate, right? That was impossible.

[00:20:04]So, the ability for us to communicate over the phone now is not a precise communication. It's an It's now a gap that has been closed completely. Does that make sense?

[00:20:15]>> Okay.

[00:20:16]>> Some of them, yes, were more precise, but some of them were just full-on gaps.

[00:20:20]>> Okay. So, then does the Quran perfectly communicate God?

[00:20:22]>> Hold on.

[00:20:24]What I'm saying now is is in our language, when we are speaking and we are trying to understand something outside of us, yeah?

[00:20:31]In there there is a gap in understanding.

[00:20:34]>> Okay, fine.

[00:20:35]>> Yeah? So, in my understanding and in God's understanding, there is a gap.

[00:20:39]>> Okay.

[00:20:40]>> So, for me to be able to explain that understanding, >> You need >> I can only I can only communicate that with my understanding, but I'm trying to explain something outside of my understanding even within creation to explain >> outside of creation.

[00:20:56]>> Now, here's the question to you.

[00:20:57]>> Yeah.

[00:20:58]>> Right?

[00:20:59]With that explanation that you've had, are you correct? With your understanding and stuff, are you correct? Another hour. Are you correct that what you've understood within the creation >> by correct? All right.

[00:21:10]>> I In other words, what How you've now synthesized that that this God has this and that.

[00:21:14]>> I haven't been able to falsify it enough.

[00:21:16]>> Okay. So, where does the Quran play in this? Because to me, what you have explained is how you've gone from inside the creation out. And I say to that, yes, you can do that only to a certain extent.

[00:21:26]>> Yeah.

[00:21:27]>> Now, with the If you have the um uncreated come in, you get full perfect revelation.

[00:21:33]Because now you know it This didn't come from creation, right? This is why for Muhammad, we That's why for Muhammad you would revere him in the sense that Wait, let me Wait, let me finish. Let me finish. You would revere him in the sense that Oh, the reason why the Quran has to come from God is because he wasn't meant to speak. Just like the reason why we say that Jesus is the son of God is because Mary was not meant to have a child. The two words of God, the Quran and Jesus, have come in some weird um strange ways in which it's not like the rest of creation. So, now you need to pay attention to it. You need to pay attention to these expressions, right?

[00:22:06]You see the likening here, right? So, with the For you For you For the >> What you're saying What you're saying is if something has happened >> Yeah.

[00:22:13]>> Yeah. I must attach any explanation to it and call it a day.

[00:22:17]>> What do you mean by that?

[00:22:18]>> So, you're saying that because Mary had a child that she was not meant to have, I must call that child the child of God.

[00:22:25]>> No, no, not yet. Not yet. Not yet.

[00:22:27]>> No, no, but I'm giving an example.

[00:22:29]Obviously, you build on it more in terms of you look at what Jesus does and stuff, and then you have the whole thing altogether, right? But when we're looking at the conceptions of the two When we're looking at the Wait, wait.

[00:22:38]We're looking at the two conceptions of the word of God. And it's interesting in the fact that they both do not involve creation in a sense.

[00:22:45]>> said you can get to God using logic.

[00:22:47]>> No, no, no, you can only get so far.

[00:22:49]>> Okay, you can get so far to a prime mover with logic.

[00:22:52]>> And that's it.

[00:22:53]>> You accept that.

[00:22:54]>> Yeah.

[00:22:55]>> So, you accept that that logic is sound enough to get to a prime mover.

[00:22:59]>> Yeah, because you don't get to Allah.

[00:23:00]>> believe that that logic is also sound enough to be applied to religion?

[00:23:05]>> Yes, it can be.

[00:23:06]>> Okay. Now, if you take that I'm taking a whole new step now. You keep going to the Bible, yeah? If >> Where are we going now?

[00:23:12]>> I know. If you take that same logic, yeah? And now apply it to all religion, not just the Bible. All religion. You have to look, where does that sound logic work best? Right?

[00:23:23]>> And I would say Christianity.

[00:23:25]>> But how?

[00:23:26]>> Because that's where miracles and the That's what I'm saying.

[00:23:31]Well, then that's where we can say that And so then that You hold on, wait.

[00:23:35]No, we No, we don't move our rationality.

[00:23:37]>> You have to to be able to understand miracle, right?

[00:23:40]>> No, you know No, that's where the miracle is where we have is where we say our logic has taken us so far. This must belong to the creator. Just like you say that Muhammad was not able to He wouldn't You shouldn't According to the Muslim, Muhammad should not have been able to speak the Quran, right? Wait, hold on, wait. Wait, wait, hold on, wait.

[00:23:55]>> Do you believe Muhammad, yeah? Is the one and only piece required to be a Muslim. Do you believe that that is the one and only thing that was pushing people to be Muslim? Or do you believe that before Muhammad, there were Muslims?

[00:24:10]>> No, I don't think that before Muhammad, there were not Muslims, no. There were Jews and Christians.

[00:24:14]>> But then you see this is where where me and you can't even have the conversations likewise because I believe that there were Muslims before Muhammad.

[00:24:22]>> According to what?

[00:24:23]>> What you mean? According to believe.

[00:24:25]>> Belief in what?

[00:24:26]>> In one God.

[00:24:28]>> Yeah, no, but your definition of your definition of Muslim is is like, okay, um who else? Jews, Jews, are they Muslim? They believe in one God.

[00:24:36]>> Some are.

[00:24:37]>> What is How What distinguishes the Jew today with with a Muslim today? Cuz both of you guys believe in one God.

[00:24:43]>> Yeah, so some submit to God, some don't.

[00:24:45]>> No, now you said it's submission.

[00:24:47]>> Yeah.

[00:24:47]>> You've now added You said, you know, you've went from You've went from Yeah, Muslim is someone who believes in God, the one God, and now you've gone to submission.

[00:24:54]>> If you believe in God, do ultimately submit to God, right?

[00:24:56]>> Okay, submitted to which God and how?

[00:24:58]You see now we having to get into detail.

[00:25:00]>> But this is what I'm saying. So, if you if you're saying that you said there was no Muslim before, right? But a Muslim >> I when cuz when I'm defining Muslim, I'm saying someone who accepts Allah and his last prophet Muhammad.

[00:25:10]>> not the definition of a Muslim.

[00:25:11]>> I'm pretty sure that's the definition of That's That's That's your Shahada.

[00:25:15]>> That's the Shahada. [laughter] >> Yeah, that what makes you Muslim. You got to For you to become a Muslim, you must confess the Shahada.

[00:25:21]>> No, you to be to follow Islam.

[00:25:24]To follow Islam.

[00:25:25]>> Yeah, that's a Muslim.

[00:25:26]>> No, a Muslim can be outside of Islam.

[00:25:28]>> Okay, you're just using the definition of one that submits to God. You're just using that colloquially. That means everybody's Muslim.

[00:25:33]>> No, that's not true. Not everybody's Muslim.

[00:25:35]>> Yeah, I submit to God. I'm Muslim then.

[00:25:38]>> Oh, what do you mean I don't?

[00:25:39]>> to three Gods.

[00:25:40]>> No, I submit to one God. I submit to one God. Three persons, one God.

[00:25:44]>> came down now, yeah? And told you to do something. And then the Holy Spirit came down and said, "No, you got to do the other thing."

[00:25:50]>> No, the three The three are one and on the No, the three are one Hold on. Hold on.

[00:25:55]Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. The three Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

[00:26:00]We're jumping all over the place, right?

[00:26:03]I So Sorry, bro. You're You're talking it.

[00:26:04]>> There's many Gods. That's the That's your That's your problem.

[00:26:07]>> You're jumping all over the place.

[00:26:09]Because like I said, the main point of what we were talking about here is just that you cannot understand or get to an understanding that Allah has an attribute of speech without the Quran.

[00:26:18]>> Okay, I don't want to do what about ism.

[00:26:20]This is the issue, yeah?

[00:26:21]>> I see what about ism. That's where we started.

[00:26:23]>> for me to to to to logically show you that one is wrong, I'm going to do a what about ism anyway. Look, if if if you believe that God has the power to do anything, yeah? You which you do, right?

[00:26:40]>> He can do anything but not contradict his nature.

[00:26:44]>> That's not Christian belief.

[00:26:45]>> Huh?

[00:26:45]>> That's not Christian belief.

[00:26:46]>> That is. It is a Christian belief. God is not a man that he shall lie nor a man that he shall change his Or not the son of man that he shall change his Um, I'm trying to think of some other scriptures.

[00:26:55]>> contradict his nature.

[00:26:55]>> Yeah, he will contradict himself.

[00:26:57]>> So, God cannot create >> If If God is truth, then he's not he cannot be a He cannot be a lie.

[00:27:03]>> If God is truth >> Yeah, he cannot be a lie. Yeah, he's not falsehood.

[00:27:07]>> Okay.

[00:27:08]So, if God is truth, he cannot be a lie.

[00:27:11]So, can God create lie?

[00:27:13]>> He doesn't What do you What do you mean create lie?

[00:27:15]>> Can God create lie?

[00:27:17]>> No, he can't create lie.

[00:27:18]>> So, who created lies?

[00:27:20]>> Lie Lies in What? Sin and stuff? Is that what you're saying?

[00:27:23]>> It's lie. You said he cannot lie.

[00:27:25]>> Yeah, God is not lie.

[00:27:27]Lie is not a creation like we are creation. Like What What like What in what sense? Like This is What? So, is Allah liar then? Does he Did he create lies?

[00:27:36]>> Well, >> Did he create Did he Did he >> created He created lies. So, he must have an understanding of lying.

[00:27:44]>> Again, an understand Again, >> You keep calling him Allah. I'm saying God.

[00:27:48]Yeah? I'm saying God.

[00:27:50]>> No, but I'm I'm trying to talk to you as a Muslim.

[00:27:53]>> Why?

[00:27:54]>> Because you're Muslim.

[00:27:55]>> It doesn't matter what I believe in. At the end of the day, we're seeking the truth, no? So, it doesn't matter what >> Well, you Well, you Well, we both claim both You as a Muslim and me as a Christian both claim to have the truth.

[00:28:04]>> Right, but I'm I'm not bringing you a claim out of my Quran. I'm trying to talk to >> Why?

[00:28:09]>> Because that's the Because the Quran is the only way for you to understand God.

[00:28:12]>> Okay. So, you believe that if I'm looking for the truth, I should hold what I'm believing in now and say this is the truth. So, I am going to prove this to be the truth.

[00:28:23]>> You would do >> to be dishonest. No, no, I would have to step away from that and say all of these are are in question.

[00:28:30]>> Okay.

[00:28:31]>> Right?

[00:28:31]>> Well, you can only get so far.

[00:28:33]Yeah, but you can only That's what I'm saying. You can only get >> You can't hold any position. You can't hold any of your >> Yeah, but at some point you will have to. You as a Muslim, you have. Now, that's what I'm saying. You could We can only get No, don't know what I'm saying is you can >> I can insult every single prophet in front of you >> The point the point the point is you can only get so far without God revealing himself without scripture without divine revelation you can only get so far no that's honest yeah honestly you can only get so far >> You cannot fear you cannot be scared of stepping out of line right if you if you are caged and you are looking for the truth and you believe that the truth is outside of the cage then you must step out of that cage to find that >> So I'm so if that cage is Islam if that cage is Christianity if that cage is Hinduism sometimes you must step out of it to know well no no hold on you're you're saying something confusing is do you believe in Islam or not is it a cage >> I believe in it >> So you stepped out into Islam Islam is your truth and is the is the truth of do you is >> Islam is see what you said Islam is my truth but we're not we're not discussing that thing we're discussing what is the truth >> Bro do you believe in the truth or not >> I believe >> Do you okay so listen let me so let me rephrase is Islam the truth or not just answer that question >> To me so far yes >> When you say to me you make that very like it's a subjective statement >> understanding absolutely subjective >> Okay so you don't have >> religion and your religion is subjective >> So you don't so you don't actually think I should worship Allah Do you think just like how you worship Allah you read the Quran Muhammad is the last prophet is Muhammad is Muhammad my last prophet as well is that what you believe >> I believe those things yes I believe he is your your last prophet >> Okay so then so then you're not talking about opinion here you're talking about facts you're talking about something about the nature of the universe >> Yeah I I believe that but I don't believe you have to believe that >> So then why you if if you don't believe I have to believe that why are you talking to me about religion let me be on my way >> What >> Well me I would why would want you to be a Christian I believe that Christianity is the way, that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. But my my >> want me to be Christian?

[00:30:48]>> Yeah, that's that's why I would come here.

[00:30:49]>> I don't want you to be Christian. I don't need you to be Christian. It doesn't affect my life at all whether you are a Christian or not, or Muslim, or Muslim, whatever you are.

[00:30:58]>> Okay.

[00:30:59]>> It doesn't change my life at all. But if I believe I have the truth, yeah? And I believe that that truth teaches me to be fair, and teaches me to be just, >> You wouldn't want to share it.

[00:31:11]>> and teaches me to be honest, and teaches me to be kind, then a kindness, and honesty, all of those things, yeah? A justice would be informing you, right?

[00:31:23]>> Yeah, you're sharing the truth.

[00:31:24]>> But whether you come or not, I don't give a No offense.

[00:31:27]>> Okay, so so you believe you're mandated to share that truth?

[00:31:30]>> I believe >> Are you Are you Are you >> I'm mandated like as a >> Has your God told you to share that truth?

[00:31:37]>> Through other things, yes.

[00:31:39]>> Your God has told you to share that truth?

[00:31:41]>> Yeah, to spread goodness, >> How?

[00:31:43]>> kindness, >> How?

[00:31:44]>> That that like that.

[00:31:45]>> No, how did he tell you How did Did Allah speak to you?

[00:31:48]>> No, through the Quran.

[00:31:50]>> Okay, finally. So exactly, the only way you even the whole all of you No, no, wait, wait, wait, no, but the point is No, no, yeah, but even you to come to me about talking about is the uncreated in creation, for us to say that we should step out and try and understand God, you're all doing that as a motivation from Allah speaking to you through the Quran to speak to me about what is the truth. This is your belief.

[00:32:13]>> No, no, because the Quran allows me to step out of my belief to understand my belief.

[00:32:17]>> No, it doesn't.

[00:32:18]>> It does.

[00:32:18]>> It doesn't.

[00:32:19]>> It doesn't. It says seek knowledge.

[00:32:20]>> Yeah, but the the only true knowledge is in the Quran. That's what you would have to believe as a Muslim. The only The perfect true knowledge is in the Quran.

[00:32:28]>> If I find true knowledge, yeah? If I find true knowledge outside of the Quran, >> Then you have to throw away the Quran.

[00:32:33]>> Then I have to throw away the Quran, right? And if the Quran teaches me to be honest, yeah? And teaches me to be true.

[00:32:40]And teaches me >> does the Bible and so does Buddhism.

[00:32:42]>> Well, that's what I'm saying.

[00:32:43]>> So then why >> they all teach you this.

[00:32:45]>> So then how do you So why do you believe in Islam?

[00:32:49]>> Because I believe that all of these things are true.

[00:32:52]>> But so do the all the other My Bible tells me about harm, to love my neighbors as I love myself.

[00:32:56]>> I know you.

[00:32:57]>> So why is it any different? Why did you choose Islam?

[00:33:00]>> What do you mean, why is it any different?

[00:33:03]>> You are saying that you believe in Islam because it tells you to do all these things.

[00:33:06]>> Yes.

[00:33:07]>> Christianity tells me to do a lot of things, too.

[00:33:09]>> Well, >> So why are you have Why have you decided to put your your lot with Islam?

[00:33:15]Because my whole thing was >> I need to be honest. I didn't put it with Islam. Yeah.

[00:33:20]>> So are you Muslim or not, man?

[00:33:22]>> No, no, no. I am Muslim. I'm saying I didn't put it with Islam.

[00:33:25]I have my belief, my understanding, my opinions. Yeah?

[00:33:32]>> Okay.

[00:33:33]>> And then I have compared my understanding, my uh knowledge, all of this with the Quran, yeah?

[00:33:42]And from that, I can weigh what is correct and what is incorrect.

[00:33:47]>> If the Bible You are the criterion over the Quran, then. That's what you just said. Are you the criterion over the Quran?

[00:33:52]>> Wait. Wait.

[00:33:53]>> Go on.

[00:33:53]>> If Of course, the Quran tells me to use my brain, yeah?

[00:33:57]>> But are you the one who can determine what's true or false in the Quran?

[00:34:00]>> tells me to use my brain.

[00:34:01]>> Wait. Can you determine what's true or false in the Quran?

[00:34:04]>> I think everybody has.

[00:34:05]>> If you can do that.

[00:34:07]>> Yeah, if it's subjective, absolutely.

[00:34:09]>> Is the Is the Quran objectively from God?

[00:34:12]>> No, no, you're you're you're mixing your >> No, no, but no, it's cuz I'm not I know I'm not conflating it. I'm actually trying to understand your world view. Do you think the Quran is a >> morality. The morality of the Quran is objective, yeah?

[00:34:23]>> Is objective.

[00:34:24]>> The morality of it is objective.

[00:34:26]>> Seriously?

[00:34:28]>> are subjective. Now, there are >> So then you need to throw away your morals. You need to follow the Quran's morals wholeheartedly.

[00:34:35]>> There are some women, some Muslim women.

[00:34:37]You will ask them, yeah? You I I think the problem is you debate too many Muslim men, and you haven't heard it from a Muslim woman. And then you'll understand what I'm saying. Some Muslim women tell you getting four wives haram.

[00:34:49]Yeah? They will tell you four wives is haram.

[00:34:53]And they will say that in the Quran, yeah? I will I will expose these Muslims. I don't I don't care. Some of these beliefs are haram, yeah?

[00:35:02]They will say that these four wives, they can't have them, right? Because the Quran is is was talking about a different time, yeah? And this was for a different people. And I would disagree with these Muslims.

[00:35:13]>> Oh, you would disagree with that?

[00:35:14]>> Absolutely.

[00:35:15]>> Okay. Okay, so you're saying a man can have four wives.

[00:35:17]>> Well, hold on.

[00:35:17]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:35:18]>> Because I would say you're taking now a part of the Quran.

[00:35:22]>> Yeah.

[00:35:22]>> Yeah?

[00:35:23]And you are now saying that this part >> is false.

[00:35:26]>> is No, is out of date.

[00:35:29]>> Okay.

[00:35:29]>> means the entire Quran is for all time.

[00:35:32]>> Yeah, okay.

[00:35:33]>> Yeah.

[00:35:33]>> Okay.

[00:35:33]>> So, I would I would do that with a Muslim, yeah? Now, the thing is, I agree with them to some degree that having four wives can be haram, yeah? But the way they say it is haram, yeah? Their explanation is not right. Does that make sense? Their Their explanation takes them out of the fold of Islam. My explanation, while still agreeing that four wives is wrong, will keep me in the fold of Islam.

[00:35:57]>> How can you How do >> I will apply the harm principle, and I will say that okay, you're allowed four wives, but if you harm your first wife by getting a second wife, you can't have the second wife because you will be harming your first wife.

[00:36:11]>> Yeah, but in Is it In Islam, you don't need You don't First of all, you don't need to say that the Quran >> I'm not saying that the Quran is out of date. I'm saying the Quran has given me rules that I must apply.

[00:36:19]>> But you're taking the harm principle. Is the harm principle in Quran?

[00:36:22]>> In Quran, yeah.

[00:36:22]>> Where's the harm Where's the harm principle in Quran?

[00:36:24]>> That you cannot do anything that causes harm. So, for example, it says beat wife, you cannot beat your wife and cause harm. Where does it say that?

[00:36:30]>> In the Quran.

[00:36:31]>> It doesn't say that in the Quran. I think it says that in your Hadith or maybe your Tafsir.

[00:36:34]>> as well. No, Hadith for sure it says it.

[00:36:36]>> Yeah, but the thing is your the Quran is what is the word of God here. The Quran is what the moral is, the moral standard. Whatever subjective view that you may have where you think it's wrong or right, unfortunately, you got to battle it out because if you are saying that the >> still battles out within Quran as well.

[00:36:50]>> No, but then is the Quran the objective word of God or not?

[00:36:53]>> Yes.

[00:36:54]>> So, you're saying that this thing is objective.

[00:36:57]>> This this Quran is objective.

[00:36:59]>> Okay, how is it objective?

[00:37:01]>> it's objective.

[00:37:01]>> Okay. You see again, you've made a disconnect between the Quran which in and you.

[00:37:06]>> Yeah, I'm not the Quran.

[00:37:08]>> Is the Quran created?

[00:37:09]>> Yes.

[00:37:10]>> How will you make a distinction between a created thing and you also being a created thing? Why is a created thing objective but you subjective?

[00:37:17]>> on this planet, on this realm, is created.

[00:37:20]>> Completely?

[00:37:21]>> Yeah, if it's my word, if I read the Quran, my words are created. The sound coming out of my mouth is created.

[00:37:28]>> So, if it's completely created, how can it be called the word of God?

[00:37:32]It's still the word of God. How?

[00:37:34]>> The same way a voice message is my voice.

[00:37:37]>> You need creation Yeah, you need creation. You need creation for you to pass a voice message. You need to be present for you to do a voice message.

[00:37:44]So, how do you again, it's the same question. If the >> not use creation, you you want to turn the Quran to the Quran, yeah?

[00:37:51]If God not use creation to bring that created Quran to us?

[00:37:56]>> But did >> Did he Yes or no?

[00:37:58]>> Yes, he's used the Arabic language, he's used the books, he's used the page.

[00:38:02]Yeah, yeah, he's used angels so on and so >> He used uh messengers.

[00:38:05]>> But where's >> Is that all creation?

[00:38:06]>> But he gave something to the angels that was infinite, that was uncreated.

[00:38:10]>> He gave something uncreated.

[00:38:13]>> Right, that's that's Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait there. Wait there. What he gave to the angel, right?

[00:38:18]Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[00:38:19]>> As he gave it.

[00:38:21]>> If he the process of him giving it it means he creates it.

[00:38:26]The word is with him.

[00:38:27]>> Woah.

[00:38:28]>> The word is with him.

[00:38:28]>> Woah.

[00:38:29]>> But for him to deliver it, to give it, it must exist. It must be created.

[00:38:35]>> So, the Arabic >> The ideas in your head, they're all ideas in your head until you say them.

[00:38:42]>> Yeah, but the when I say them Yeah, but when I say them >> They are.

[00:38:46]>> When I say them, I am Hold on, wait.

[00:38:47]When I say them, when I communicate them, I'm reflecting what I'm I'm expressing what's up in here.

[00:38:52]>> But is it the same as what's coming out?

[00:38:54]>> Now, wait. Now, if the Quran does it perfectly express who Allah is, >> Yes.

[00:39:00]>> so that means it shares in its perfection with Allah.

[00:39:04]>> What do you mean?

[00:39:05]>> For it to perfectly express who Allah is, then it cannot be like created in some like creation in some sense. It must be Hold on. It must be perfect like Allah in another sense.

[00:39:14]>> It it's perfect. It's perfect in the sense that uh because the creation to some degree is perfect. Your heart is is perfect, yeah? Like for it to beat.

[00:39:24]>> No, you can't don't >> perfectly >> I know you're But you're likening you're likening my heart to the Quran.

[00:39:29]>> I'm not.

[00:39:30]>> You are.

[00:39:30]>> Well, yeah, cuz it's create This this Quran that we're talking about is the created one. So, it's perfect in that sense, but it can't be perfect >> It can't be >> sense of divinity because for that to be perfect in divinity, our mind would explode understanding that perfection.

[00:39:46]>> No, not necessarily explode, but but but if but if there's no reason for you to call it the word of God.

[00:39:52]>> I believe God is perfect.

[00:39:53]>> Is this Okay. Is this word perfect?

[00:39:55]>> Hold on. I believe God is perfect. God is the word. They're they're the same thing, yeah? You're saying is his word perfect? He is the word.

[00:40:02]>> So, then what's Does the Quran express his words to you?

[00:40:07]Does it?

[00:40:08]>> Yes.

[00:40:09]>> Does it do it perfectly?

[00:40:11]>> It in creation. Yes.

[00:40:14]>> If it does it perfect if There's no such What do you mean? When you say perfectly in creation?

[00:40:19]>> It's the most >> You can't say it's the word of God.

[00:40:20]>> It's the most perfect What do you mean?

[00:40:22]How not?

[00:40:23]>> Because all you all you're going to say is, "Oh, it's the best thing that we have." But that still puts it on the scale of created things. You have the worst created thing and the best created thing.

[00:40:31]>> It's on the scale of created things.

[00:40:32]What we have here.

[00:40:34]>> Yeah, so then it How do you call it the word of God? It's a created.

[00:40:37]>> But it's still it's it's >> It's There's no difference.

[00:40:40]>> message.

[00:40:41]>> Yeah, but voice message analogies you need creation. You need a phone that's created. You need your You need to be in creation to do that.

[00:40:47]>> You used for it. No, you don't have to be.

[00:40:49]>> You do.

[00:40:49]>> How?

[00:40:50]>> If I'm not in creation, I can't give you a voice message.

[00:40:53]>> What do you mean?

[00:40:54]>> If I'm not in If I don't exist, I can't give you a voice message.

[00:40:57]>> Watch this.

[00:40:58]Do you believe, yeah, that you can send a message into the internet and and speak to something in the internet? Can you do that?

[00:41:07]>> I believe >> Do you have to enter the internet to do that?

[00:41:10]>> But me and the internet must be in the same space. We must be in creation.

[00:41:14]>> The internet's in its own space.

[00:41:16]>> No, it is in creation.

[00:41:17]>> No.

[00:41:17]>> It is. The fiber optic, the 5G, the signaling, all of that stuff there. It must be in creation.

[00:41:23]>> We're arguing like the validity of the Quran stuff being the word of God is created.

[00:41:27]>> I'm I'm What I'm What I'm What I'm talking about here is I think that Well, we started off with understanding who God is. And I was saying, "Well, you can only get so far just by human knowledge.

[00:41:37]You need revelation." And a revelation is God revealing himself to you. So, for the Muslim to say that Allah has the attribute of speech you cannot get to the attribute of speech logically. It must It must have communicated to you, right? The Quran is interesting.

[00:41:53]>> No, that's what we said. Because we said speech is communication. So, you can get there logically.

[00:41:58]>> You can't get to him having the attribute of speech without him communicating to you. You can't.

[00:42:04]>> But I we just changed our position there.

[00:42:05]>> No, that's the same position.

[00:42:07]>> We agreed Remember I discussed the gap in in communication and we went down that road and that there are gaps.

[00:42:13]>> Yeah, those gaps in communication is just is just technology. There's still communication happening. Whether smoke signals or it's you're calling on the phone.

[00:42:19]>> and distance >> It's still true communication that's occurring there. But you need to be in creation.

[00:42:23]>> What, smoke signals are true communication?

[00:42:25]>> Yes, you are communicating some some sort of signal.

[00:42:28]>> Yeah, you're communicating a signal, but is that >> Pardon?

[00:42:31]>> You're communicating a signal, but is that true communication?

[00:42:33]>> Yes, true Yes, true communication. It may not be It may >> [clears throat] >> exquisite or perfect.

[00:42:40]>> Are you Is it Are you arguing that Allah never communicated with the with Muhammad or anyone in the Quran for example, whereas God of the Bible did?

[00:42:50]>> What I'm trying to say is for Allah to communicate he must enter creation.

[00:42:55]If he doesn't enter creation, there's no communication. There's no revelation.

[00:42:58]>> 100% that's how I come >> Right. So, whatever for for what's >> 100%. I mean, in so logically in my logical brain that makes >> Without Without Allah being present >> discussed logically that he can do it without >> No, he can't.

[00:43:12]>> Logically, logically, rationally, yeah?

[00:43:16]You do not have to enter somewhere to communicate with that thing.

[00:43:20]>> You need to be in crea- For me to For me You need to be Yeah, you need to be in creation. I need to touch the keyboards.

[00:43:26]>> mean entering.

[00:43:27]>> No, you need to be >> Connection does not mean entering.

[00:43:30]>> Yeah, I don't think Okay.

[00:43:31]>> Logically, logically, we're speaking logic. We're not speaking That's my point. I come out of it and I said, "I'm not speaking Quran or Bible. I'm saying logically." And then that logic, you can apply it to all >> Okay, I'll Okay, I'll ask you a question.

[00:43:43]>> You have to first accept what is a rational explanation of a rational logic that we are willing to apply to religion and then not change that logic to fit a religion. It's whatever religion can fit that logic must be the logical religion.

[00:44:01]>> No. Cuz then miracles doesn't make sense.

[00:44:03]>> You don't agree with that?

[00:44:04]>> Cuz then >> Who was it I told that last point? So, if So, if a religion illogical, so if a lo- a religion is illogical, it can still be the truth.

[00:44:13]>> But, it's all about >> Is it our standard of logic, though?

[00:44:15]>> Exactly. If you're If you're trying to If you're trying to use your human or you think is your human to explain something that's eternal, >> So, >> it doesn't translate the same.

[00:44:23]>> You can only get so far, right? Exactly.

[00:44:26]You need revelation.

[00:44:27]>> can be illogical and logical at the same time.

[00:44:34]>> So, you're saying >> You're simplifying it in a way that it doesn't need to be simplified.

[00:44:36]>> Well, you have to put it in its simplest form to understand.

[00:44:38]>> Well, then here's here's Okay, here's a good logic question. Should someone like Muhammad have been able to give the Quran?

[00:44:44]No, he was illiterate.

[00:44:46]>> Could someone like Muhammad >> Should he have been able to give the Quran?

[00:44:49]>> What do you mean?

[00:44:50]>> He was an illiterate man, yes?

[00:44:52]Unlettered tongue, unlettered prophet.

[00:44:54]Should he have been able to give the Quran?

[00:44:56]>> That's a belief.

[00:44:57]>> No, but can you see But, at the day you got your logical and illogical.

[00:45:00]According No, but according to logic, the Quran should never be coming from a man like Muhammad.

[00:45:05]Because he can't He shouldn't be able to speak.

[00:45:06]>> That's a belief, is what I'm saying.

[00:45:07]>> No, but don't >> Some Muslims don't believe that, yeah?

[00:45:09]>> Do you believe that?

[00:45:11]>> To some degree.

[00:45:12]>> Okay, so something supernatural is going on there.

[00:45:15]>> Yeah, to some degree, yeah.

[00:45:16]>> Right.

[00:45:16]>> But, I don't I don't disagree that supernatural exists outside of logic.

[00:45:21]>> Yeah. For you to have supernatural, >> Yeah.

[00:45:23]>> that is present in creation.

[00:45:25]>> Yeah.

[00:45:26]>> For you to say that the Quran is the word of God, Allah, to me, >> He must be present in creation in some sense.

[00:45:33]>> [music] [music] [music]