The Versace Murder: Inside Andrew Cunanan’s Deadly Rampage

Added: 2026-05-15

[00:00:00]Miami Beach, 1997.

[00:00:03]Ocean Drive is alive. Sun, money, and fashion everywhere, where celebrities come and go without a second thought.

[00:00:11]But just outside a luxury mansion, something far darker is unfolding. By morning, G. Ani Versace would be found shot on the steps of his own home. A killing that shocked the world and shook the fashion industry. No breakin, no clear motive, just a killer already on the run. And one name everyone was talking about, Andrew Kuninan.

[00:00:59]Welcome to Unlawful Acts, the podcast where we dive into the darkest corners of true crime. I'm your host, Susan Davis, >> and I'm your co-host, Joselyn Frank Husen.

[00:01:12]>> And so today, we're unpacking the story of Andrew Kuninan. He's most associated with the killing of Giani Versace, but there were several crimes that actually led up to it and quite a manhunt across America. So before we get into the story of these murders, it's important that we dig into the man behind these crimes. So who was Andrew Kuninan? Andrew Kuninan grew up in San Diego here in California.

[00:01:41]He was the youngest of four children and he was raised by an Italian-born mother and a Filipino, excuse me, an Italian-American mother and a Filipinoborn stockbroker dad. His dad also served in the US Navy. And uh his father and mother showed him a lot of uh affection and special attention, arguably to say that he was the favorite of the four.

[00:02:03]>> Sure. And although they lived in a less affluent neighborhood, his parents placed him in the prestigious Bishop School in La Hoya, which is a very, very prominent neighborhood in San Diego, where he was made sure to be surrounded by wealth, influence, and other children of privilege. So this is really all where it began for him. Kunanin was highly intelligent. He was outgoing. He was obsessed with social status, with luxury, with the image of success. He was very popular in school and he was well-liked and he was boisterous. Later, we would think that these are all qualities that a psychopath would have and that he actually exhibited them from a very young age. When Andrew was 19, his family was devastated as his father was accused of stock fraud and he actually fled the country. At that point in time, Andrew's image completely changed.

[00:02:56]So, from the time that he was 19, we're continuing where he pic he actually dropped out of college and uh he drifts towards a life that was built on appearances, no longer relying on his click from school and his friends that he had made along the way. He kind of was making a new name for himself. At this point, he's moving through Southern California social circles, especially among older, wealthy gay men, and he's cultivating an image of sophistication, expensive taste, success, and most importantly, access. This was absolutely everything to him.

[00:03:32]Over time, he began supporting himself through odd jobs, sex work, long-term relationships where the older person in the relationship was giving him cash or gifts, paying him rent, excuse me, paying his rent, um putting him up in an apartment, and giving him that access that he was so desperately in need of.

[00:03:51]>> Social climber.

[00:03:52]>> Yes, absolutely. A social climber. That being said, he was a chameleon. He was polished. He was witty. He was socially agile. and he was known to party hard.

[00:04:02]But that being said, he actually was obsessed with becoming somebody that was bigger than he really was, which is why he was bouncing around all these circles in the first place. He wanted to be bigger. He wanted to be richer, more important than he really was. So, it was his job to essentially curate a life that was filled with expensive dinners, wealthy companions, designer clothes. He wanted to be in the most high status rooms in whatever area that he was living in in the time, predominantly San Diego. Um, and he was a very performative person. He was known to stand up at the table and make, you know, um, loud toast and command the attention of every room that he went into. He was quite a handsome individual, too. And he really was on a mission to make himself more enviable than the rest. And in a lot of ways, he was very successful. He was wellliked and wellknown and um you know that was just kind of who he was down to his core. However, his image really depended on what other people were willing to give him, what type of access they were willing to give him, whether or not they were willing to give him money to fund this type of lifestyle that he was so desperately attached to. And um it was all really dependent on them wanting to be with him. So, as he gets older, this is where things started to actually slip from his grip.

[00:05:26]>> Cuz as you can imagine, this is a young, very, you know, vivacious, attractive guy, life of the party, somebody that commanded attention and eyes of every room that he went in. And as you grow older, your looks sometimes they fade.

[00:05:41]And uh in his case, you know, he was of course still a handsome guy, but wasn't commanding the same attention as he was in the circles that he had previously surrounded himself in. The these men were, you know, more interested in kind of picking up the younger model and he was no longer the hot commodity in in his circles.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah. So he had a lot of sugar daddies at the time.

[00:06:03]>> He did. Yeah, he did have a lot of sugar daddies and you know he was he was a magnetic guy and he knew how to position himself in these conversations and in these social circles so that he could you know encourage somebody to pay him money to exist. Um and he actually had one wealthy patron that lavishly spoiled him with money, cars, expensive apartments, gifts who broke up with him suddenly. And that is seen to be one of the catalysts that eventually led to his, you know, psychological demise. He then at that point is essentially forced out of the lifestyle that had absolutely consumed him. Um, this, you know, lavish version of Andrew that we're getting to know is becoming a lot harder to maintain without all that money and access and, you know, invitation and and so on. So, this brings us to late April of 1997.

[00:07:00]At this point in time, Andrew's looks, as I said, are fading. He's not that same sparkly new kid on the block model that everybody's after. He's just been dumped by his benefactor, his sugar daddy, so to say. And he is at a point where he's falling into personal freefall. Um, this is really the catalyst moment for him that essentially sends him into a state of absolute chaos. And unfortunately for him at this point, he's forced out of the life that he's really curated for himself.

[00:07:31]>> He has to move out of San Diego. He heads to Minneapolis. Um, he still has a a close circle of friends that he keeps in touch with, but he's no longer connected to that San Diego life that he has spent the last few years maintaining.

[00:07:47]So when he's in Minneapolis, he's completely depressed and desperate. And he reaches out to a gentleman by the name of David Madson, who was a dear friend of his and also a former lover.

[00:07:58]And some would say that there were reports that actually he was the man that Kuninan loved the most. This is somebody that was very important to him, very dear to him. He reaches out to Madsen and he's desperate. Can I please come stay with you? essentially he's looking for a couch surfing opportunity because at this point in time he was completely out of resources and again desperate. Madson says yes. Uh which would be the start of what began a horrific trail of blood and um would be a nationwide manhunt.

[00:08:31]>> Right. Yeah. David Matson then picks him up at the airport >> um and uh kind of takes him under his wing, drops him off at the apartment.

[00:08:43]And here we we think he's going there because he's despondent, he's depressed, just needs to get away and decompress.

[00:08:52]>> But the reality is actually much darker.

[00:08:55]He actually was was headed there specifically because he wanted to meet with Jeffrey Trail. Now Jeffrey Trail was somebody that he knew from the San Diego days. Jeffrey was a naval officer.

[00:09:10]They met while he was still in the Navy, traveled in the same social circles.

[00:09:15]They ended up um sort of climbing that social ladder together. I'm not exactly sure how uh David or David Matson and Jeffrey Trell came together except that they were all friends >> and so they had moved to Minneapolis and um David and Jeffrey had an apartment together there. So he goes there and he calls Trail and says, "Hey, you know, let's let's get together. We'll bury the hatchet. We'll talk. We'll catch up.

[00:09:47]Whatever." And when uh Jeffrey gets there, it's actually a whole different story. So Jeffrey buzzes into the apartment around 9:30 that night. And the minute he gets in the apartment, there's the neighbors can hear a lot of shouting. They can hear a lot of thumping. And uh what had actually happened is somewhere in um in the span of time that he's going through his personal crisis, Jeffrey is getting irritated by the stories that Andrew is telling about their social pursuits, if you will.

[00:10:29]>> So that's where the disagreements and their friendship must have have came in.

[00:10:33]>> Sure. Because this his image is super important to him, Andrews. Yeah. and he now is telling people that Andrew is a liar, that he's not telling the truth.

[00:10:45]>> And he ends up telling David Matson that these stories are lies. Now, don't know what those stories were, but obviously uh it upset and embarrassed Trail. And so, Trail is now running around telling everybody this stuff.

[00:11:00]with Andrew.

[00:11:02]This is somebody who is closest to him, somebody who who knew everything about him, and somebody who knew the truth.

[00:11:10]And now that he's sort of outing him, he's become a threat.

[00:11:14]>> So, he arrives at the apartment, there's obviously some kind of argument that's come up because the neighbor can hear it. And he actually just erupted into such a a violent rage.

[00:11:29]He took a clawhammer and he hit Trail in the head 27 times. I mean, >> that's that's just so hard to imagine. I mean, when you think about it, he's got a hammer. I mean, it's just the hammer like you've got in your garage.

[00:11:45]>> Yeah. He's he's in hitting him head >> 27 times. There's blood everywhere.

[00:11:53]And then he just rolls him up in the rug and sticks him behind the couch.

[00:11:59]So now it's not really clear. It's not really known because again, you know, um there's wasn't anybody around to explain uh the the sequence of events, but at some point Madson either comes home, uh was there when it happened or um you know, her you know, came home and found the scene, but they actually stay in the apartment together for a couple of days, which was you're not sure if he's being threatened and coerced to stay because during this whole melee that went on between Andrew and Jeffrey, he Andrew takes Jeffrey's gun. So now he's got his gun.

[00:12:47]>> It's a semi-automatic pistol loaded, ready to go. So they spend a few days at the apartment. U they're actually seen out watch walking the dog. Um, not sure.

[00:13:00]The neighbors said, "Well, they were using a different leash." And that's why I noticed them. And I thought, "Well, must have been some leash." But, but yeah, I mean, they're out walking around. At some point, they get in David's car. He drove a red Jeep. And they start driving north >> and they end up at this place called the Full Moon Bar. And they have lunch there. So people, witnesses noticed the two of them together. They were talking.

[00:13:31]They were hanging out. And um nothing seemed out of the ordinary at that point, but that that tells you that David was still alive at that point and that they were traveling together in his car. And then, you know, sadly, you know, um the the end came for David. Um Jeffrey, excuse me, Andrew actually drove David out by the lake. Uh and he shot him in the chest or excuse me, he shot him in the back. Then he shot him in the chest.

[00:14:10]>> And to do that, he actually had to roll him over.

[00:14:14]>> And um David had little pieces of the tip of of his fingers sort of messed up and missing. And they think that that David sort of was still alive when he rolled him over and shot him again. Uh and and maybe put his his hand up, >> his face.

[00:14:30]>> Um but um so he just leaves him by the edge of the lake and drives off in his car. They did find David's separately, his keys to his apartment and what have you next to his body. So that's essentially how they ended up identifying him so quickly. So then he drives to um Chicago.

[00:14:56]Now some people believe that uh the gentleman that whose house he drove to that he had known him from prior encounters. The FBI thought that that they had had a pay pay for sex kind of relationship.

[00:15:13]Never was proven. But he drives to the home of um uh Lee Melgen.

[00:15:22]Now Lee Melgen is a very um wealthy developer.

[00:15:27]He is um at, you know, he's a guy who lives in a very nice neighborhood.

[00:15:34]>> And so he takes Lee and he actually um tapes tape, masking tape around his hat.

[00:15:42]He puts this bag, paper bag over his face, puts a couple of holes in for his nostrils, and then he tortures him for several hours.

[00:15:54]>> And this is just days after he's killed somebody that was one of his closest friends and and former boyfriends.

[00:16:00]Right.

[00:16:01]>> Exactly. So now he's he's driven he's killed Jeffrey Trail.

[00:16:08]>> Yes. He's killed um David Matson.

[00:16:12]>> Yes.

[00:16:13]>> But these murders were personal. Yes. So something changed along the way >> because now he's with Lee Milan and Lee is we don't know what the relationship was, >> but he's torturing him almost in a controlled sort of sadistic sort of way.

[00:16:32]He he had multiple stabs with a screwdriver and there was an indication that he had tortured him over several hours.

[00:16:40]>> I mean, the crime >> stabbing him over and over.

[00:16:42]>> The description of of the crime scene is absolutely devastating for what happened to Lee. I mean, >> just to think that somebody was capable of inflicting this type of damage on another person to think that at this point you have to question like did he have a thirst for blood, you know? So, >> yeah, something flipped. Some switch had flipped because again the two murders prior were really kind of personal. I mean, David was described as the the man he >> the love of his life. Exactly. Now here with with Lee, he's torturing him, putting this mask around his head. He actually took bags of cement and put them on top of him and crushed his rib cage.

[00:17:33]>> And he then took a hacksaw and actually cut his his neck. It didn't he didn't decapitate him, but he he severed his neck. And so it's like what what happened from Minneapolis to Chicago that turned him into this sort of coldblooded sort of killer because now he's really doing these almost ritualistic type killings.

[00:18:02]>> Yeah.

[00:18:03]>> So he he kills Lee, leaves him in the garage, and then he sits down and has a ham sandwich.

[00:18:14]>> Yes.

[00:18:15]They found crumbs next to the body. So, he's eating next to the body.

[00:18:19]>> I believe he actually went upstairs and took a shower. Yeah. The report say, took a shower, >> slept in his bed.

[00:18:27]>> Yes. And had a ham sandwich next to the body, which again, you know, something like you said, something has switched at this point. It has gone from, you know, a a crime against two individuals that he knew personally, one that he had a contentious friendship with, one that he had, you know, maybe it was, so to say, a crime of passion, and now there's this poor unsuspecting random individual that, not that the two previously didn't have horrible ends to their lives, but he has absolutely what I would say is the worst of it.

[00:19:06]is time killing him.

[00:19:07]>> Yes, >> absolutely. And and and then to be able to just say, "Well, now I'm hungry and I need a shower and a shing." He slept in his bed.

[00:19:19]>> Um and then he gets up in the morning and and leaves in uh Lee's uh Melan's Lexus.

[00:19:26]>> Yes.

[00:19:27]>> And the in the Lexus is a car phone, but they weren't there was no evidence to show that he had made any calls on that car phone. there wasn't anything that would have given them the opportunity to track him through any cell towers or anything like that.

[00:19:42]>> And again, this is in the late 90s and so they the technology to do that really hadn't been perfected at that point.

[00:19:51]But at that point, Kunin knows he's on the run and he realizes he's got to have a different car. By this time, Lee's wife had come home and reported the incident to the police. So, of course, reports are going out, APBs are going out nationwide to try to catch him.

[00:20:11]>> And he ends up u at a cemetery in Long Island.

[00:20:19]And in doing so, he notices that there's this um red truck parked next to the cemetery offices.

[00:20:29]>> It's like a perfect opportunity to change the vehicle that was picking up a little bit of heat.

[00:20:34]>> Exactly. So he pulls in there, parks his car, and he finds William Reese, who is the cemetery caretaker, and he forces him into the basement of the of the offices, and shoots him essentially execution style in the head.

[00:20:53]>> It's just so >> and takes his his truck.

[00:20:55]>> Yeah. the his his Reese's death is just so horrific because you have to think there of course is fear behind any execution.

[00:21:07]>> Sure. But for him to be at work, for him to be, you know, thinking I from what I understand, Kunin approached him maybe asking for help and and under the guise of just being a normal guy and then, >> you know, he was definitely targeted because of the opportunity to get the truck and continue to run.

[00:21:30]>> Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that uh William Ree was out doing his job and he probably gets approached by a lot of different people.

[00:21:38]>> Totally.

[00:21:39]>> Because people visit there all the time.

[00:21:42]>> So now he's got the truck, he's on the run again and he hand he actually heads for South Miami.

[00:21:53]So when he gets to South Miami, he's he's there for for weeks. He's just hiding in plain sight.

[00:22:02]>> And he had done the same thing essentially when he was making his way to the Midwest. You know, he's he's not hiding from anyone after he had committed these heinous crimes. He's making no attempt to stay out of, >> you know, common sight.

[00:22:19]>> Right.

[00:22:20]>> Not at all.

[00:22:21]>> Right. And by this time, his face was on shows like America's Most Wanted. You know, they've got a the poster up in the post office.

[00:22:30]>> Yeah. He's a top 10 FBI most wanted criminal at this point in time.

[00:22:33]>> Absolutely. And he's he's killed now four people, gruesome murders, and now he's sitting in South uh South Miami. He actually about three days before Versace was killed, >> he's spotted by a worker uh at a sandwich shop where he's having a sandwich and some coffee.

[00:22:55]They he they go and they call the police immediately, but the police arrived too late. They didn't get there in time. And so he's already gone and in the wind and and so um then we we find Versace. His his habit, Johnny Versace's habit was to walk to the news cafe every morning, get a paper, grab some coffee, and kind of walk back to his estate in South Miami.

[00:23:22]Because of course, you know, he Versace was one of the most well-known fashion designers of the 90s, but he was also a Miami local. You know, he was a figure in the community. People knew him.

[00:23:35]People recognized him everywhere that he went.

[00:23:37]>> And at the end of the day, yeah, of course, he's this big celebrity designer, but he was just one of the guys in the neighborhood. So he had, from what I understand, you know, his habitual grab a coffee, hit the bodega, go on a walk, you know, get a sandwich and so on and would enjoy his mornings essentially the same way every single day that he was home.

[00:23:59]>> Yeah. It's really not sure why um uh he was singled out. We don't know if he had a relationship with Versace, had met him somewhere along the line or what the fascination with Giani Versace was.

[00:24:15]>> But then as Versace's going up the steps to the gate that goes into his estate, Andrew comes up behind him and shoots him at point blank range twice and kills him.

[00:24:29]>> And this is in in broad daylight.

[00:24:31]>> Right. Right. Now, there was one witness, uh, Lazario, uh, Quintana, who runs after him, and it tries to catch him, except then Andrew turns turns the gun on him, and so he's forced to abandon his his chase >> and and so he does get away. About 3 hours later or so, the police do find the red truck in a garage nearby, and they they get into it. They find his passport. They find his clothes, driver's license, and things that tied him to the prior murders. I don't know what those things were because they never listed them uh you know in a report anywhere. But we find that they know now who they're looking for.

[00:25:18]>> And in the meantime, of course, this insane media frenzy begins. I think it's important to note that by the time that Kuninan killed Versace, he had been on the run for nearly 80 days.

[00:25:34]>> So, this is a media frenzy. This is on every major news outlet. This is on the local news, like we've said. You know, he has his photo plastered anywhere that anyone could could look up, you know, FBI's top 10 most wanted. I believe somebody the the gentleman at the sandwich shop had said that he had recognized Andrew Kuninan from an America's Most Wanted television special or seeing him on the news. So the fact that he had been on the run for 80 days and is hiding in plain sight just is is really crazy.

[00:26:09]>> So there was a complete media frenzy though. Helicopters, you know, because now you you've got a very well-known fashion designer. it becomes a whole different thing. Uh Candace Dong, who was a FBI profiler, >> she said that Versace's murder through that uh the world would know two things.

[00:26:31]>> Yes.

[00:26:32]>> They would know who Versace was >> because of all the national and international coverage, but they also would know who Andrew Kuninan was. And so, uh, that's really where this this story, the entire story becomes global in its nature. So, as as we continue, we're going to talk about the nationwide, um, manhunt. They close in on him. The cameras are just swarming Miami. You can't, there's no way to get away from it. And Kuninan makes one final move that will rob everyone of what they want. families, investigators, and and victims families. And that's really an answer. Why'd he do it? Right?

[00:27:20]There was never an arrest associated with this case. There's no true ending, no closure, no why, no confession, nothing. And I think that that's what makes this case still hit so hard today is that there are so many different types of questions and so many theories surrounding this case that we'll get into later. But that being said, I think it's very important for us to actually talk about what happened in the end. Although there was no clear resolution, one of the details people often misremember is the fact that there was no arrest.

[00:27:59]>> Um, and that is because the manhunt was so big. It was so televised. It was all over the place that And we know who did it. So it it almost seems that of course there was when there wasn't.

[00:28:11]>> Sure.

[00:28:12]>> Kunin was not captured alive. He was hunted. He was cornered. He was identified. And then he died by a self-inflicted gunshot wound before anybody could put him in handcuffs or a courtroom. And the FBI says that he was found dead on July 23rd, 1997, just 8 days after Versace's murder.

[00:28:34]>> Wasn't he in a boat house or something like that? Yeah, >> he was. He was. His demise came in a housebo in Miami Beach. Um the story goes that there was a caretaker that was actually responsible for checking on the houseboats directly across from the Fountain Blue. And uh there were signs that somebody was inside. Maybe there were lights on, there were noise, there was something that was out of the ordinary. So, the caretaker went to go see what was going on.

[00:29:02]When the caretaker for the housebo entered the housebo, shots rang out. So, the caretaker fled as any normal person would.

[00:29:10]>> Sure.

[00:29:10]>> And at that point in time, gunshots rang. There's quite a commotion happening down on the docks and police are called and they arrive at the scene.

[00:29:20]At this point in the story, the media frenzy and the police frenzy escalate to Defcon 6. We've got helicopters above.

[00:29:30]We have police that are swarming the area. This is, you know, all hands on deck, sirens everywhere, massive amounts of attention that are happening on this housebo, not understanding fully what was going on inside. So, the police actually swarm the housebo. They're, you know, making demands for Kuninan to come out. They're making demands for him to surrender himself. They actually throw tear gas into the housebo at this time.

[00:29:57]There's no response to that whatsoever.

[00:30:00]Once the tear gas clears, they enter the housebo and then that's when they find him having, you know, died by a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Um, and you know, it's just it's really a horrible ending to the story because this leaves us with absolutely no closure for the families, no closure for the people that were involved, no closure for the people that, you know, are are the remaining survivors of the victims of these crimes.

[00:30:28]And the the scene that he was found in was pretty chilling. It was very specific.

[00:30:38]So Kuninan was discovered on the bed. He was wearing, I believe, a pair of swim trunks and he had newspapers that had the articles about the Versace murder scattered by him in the bedroom. And um I mean it it really seems that he made sure that he was discovered in a certain way, >> right?

[00:31:01]>> In my opinion, that was almost his confession. You know, here I am. I'm, you know, sitting right next to the description of the crimes that I've committed and that's all I have to say.

[00:31:14]So, in that moment, he chooses to end his life. There was a fingerprint that was taken from his body that was able to confirm the identity and um also that was able to confirm the identity of the gun that was used to kill Versace, Ree, and Madson. That was Trial's uh 45 caliber rifle, >> right?

[00:31:37]>> And that's as much closure as we get. And we we we see this, you know, crime scene with this individual who has been the subject of a nationwide manhunt on display, dies by his own hand with as much evidence as we would really need to connect the dots.

[00:31:58]>> And he was controlling it every step of the way. pulling every aspect of the entire >> escapade, you know, was was by his hand and under his watch and going exactly as he wanted it to as well. So, it's safe to say that for law enforcement, you know, the nightmare is over. But like we've said, for everybody else involved, the mystery deepens. People are left with so many questions, and most importantly, people want to know why. So for law enforcement, the nightmare is over. But for everyone else involved, the mystery surrounding this case deepens.

[00:32:35]>> Sure.

[00:32:36]>> Because once Kuninan died, so did the possibility of a confession. So did the possibility of a cross-examination or even a coherent lie, an admission of guilt, anything that would really seal the door shut and give people that closure that they were so desperately after. No one would end ever sit him under the harsh lights of a trial and ask him why did you do this? They're like speculate. They they have to speculate the entire thing. There's no opportunity to ask him why Jeffrey Trail, why Madson, why Miglin? Why why William Ree, you know, why Versace even?

[00:33:13]What was the obsession with him there?

[00:33:15]And why in that order?

[00:33:17]>> And I think that's a really important question for us to go back to. We'll continue digging through the evidence on that. If this case had ended with an arrest, then we would have had one of the most notorious trials of the 1990s.

[00:33:30]But we didn't get that. That never happened. So instead, what we're left with is evidence and quite a few theories. So let's take a moment to run through some of the most um highly conversed theories about this case.

[00:33:45]>> Sure. The first theory is the most human and maybe the bleakest, which is that this all happened as a collapse that was driven by rejection. David Madson was the emotional center of the beginning of these crimes. Andrew Kuninan had apparently loved him very much. This was the person that was the love of his life.

[00:34:07]Former associates of Kuninan and Madson had described this as you know what started as a love story which in my mind is just so absolutely tragic and devastating and eventually the story between Kunin and Madson obviously gets so warped and distorted and it's it's really hard to put everything together as a normal person thinking yeah of course you have disagreements or you know un unresolved conversations or feelings with a former lover, boyfriend, somebody that you're in a relationship with. But for it to escalate to that point is just really unimaginable.

[00:34:46]>> Yeah. I mean, it didn't feel like um a jealous rage. It was more like >> now you're you're destroying my social >> in my opinion.

[00:34:58]>> Yeah. And I can't handle that that sort of destruction of of who I am and who I've built myself out to be.

[00:35:06]>> Exactly. And I think that that is definitely true um to be said for what happened to Jeffrey Trail because Trail essentially is the person that's calling him out. He's saying, "Hey, you know, you're dragging me into your BS stories that you're doing this and you're doing that and you're saying that I was there or that I was involved and I wasn't and I don't like it."

[00:35:28]>> Right? So trail essentially had all these facts and and understood what actually was true about Kuninan and how he was living his life. And the second that he was beginning to be called out that's when the contention began in between the relationship between Jeffrey Trail and Kunan >> and his personal um life was crumbling at the time.

[00:35:49]>> Absolutely.

[00:35:50]>> And so it was kind of this whole thing all wrapped together.

[00:35:54]>> Absolutely. The next theory that that people have, you know, surrounded around this case or say that they've built around this case is that Kunin was really developing a sense of empowerment and control through his use of violence.

[00:36:10]Because >> as you've just said, the violence started when his personal life began spinning out of control. He no longer had the accessibility. He no longer had the looks and the money. He had just been dumped. you know, things are not going right with his friends. People are starting to talk poorly about him. So, in order for him to assume control of his life again, he resorts to something that he could do deliberately, something that he could be solely responsible for, something that he would have a controlled outcome of, which were these, you know, horrific murders.

[00:36:44]>> Because after Madson, the crimes become much less intimate. Um, you know, with with Miglin, it's really >> gosh, I mean, it's it's almost hard for me to talk about even though we've spent so many hours researching this case and really have dug into the information about what happened to Lee Miglin. But that to me of of all of the studying that we've done and all the researching that we've done is one of the most horrific murder scenes that I've ever read about, but also that I could ever imagine. you know, this is this is somebody that I mean, you wouldn't even don't even torture an animal this way for for what he did to this man is just unspeakable and unthinkable. Um, and he wanted to while he was torturing Lee Miglin, make sure that he was in a complete state of helplessness and then he could not defend himself again exercising that control and again creating that sense of >> of empowerment. Um, and I think that the violence was just so extreme that at this point it was really about that control and setting a score.

[00:37:56]>> Yeah. I mean, we we don't have a clear picture of his relationship with Lee Migglin, but >> but the torture and and and then covering his face. Not sure why he did that, >> but um yeah, I mean it was it was pretty pretty insane how he did that and then he just Oh, >> I'm hungry. Shut it off.

[00:38:21]>> Yeah, I'm hungry now. I wonder It makes you wonder if there was some sort of um dual personality or some sort of um sort of psychopathic sort of thing that was going on there. whether was he schizophrenic?

[00:38:38]>> Oh, I mean, you know, they it's it's very easy to to to interpret and understand that whatever was going on in the mind of Andrew Kunanin, >> especially during the moments of the execution of Lee Miglin, it it was completely unhinged. Something switched.

[00:38:59]Something was not right. something was out of character even for him who had just murdered two people that he was very close to. And and let's not forget that the murder of Jeffrey Trail was also very violent. You know, this this has something >> he was very angry. You know, he stabbed him or not, excuse me, he didn't stab him, he struck him with a claw 27 times in his head. 27 times. It does not take 27 blows to the head to kill someone. It takes a fraction of that. So, after this poor person is lying there dead and completely defenseless, he just keeps going and going and going and going and going. And that is a pattern that we see actually in the murder of Madson as well.

[00:39:52]>> Sure. Because at first he he shot him in the back >> and essentially that's a kill shot, you know, but >> apparently it wasn't because there are signs or maybe actually it could it could be believed that, you know, he had lifted his hand over his face um when there was maybe a struggle who who knows if there was a struggle that was leading up to him getting shot in the back, but he did just shoot him in the back, >> but then he rolls him over.

[00:40:16]>> He rolls him over and shoots him again.

[00:40:18]It's as if he he's doing this to be deliberate, to be insidious, to be cruel. And who's not to say that at this point Madson was still alive and you know, Kuninan wanted to make sure that Madson in his final moments understood exactly what was happening to him, >> right?

[00:40:40]>> It's just sick. It It really is sick.

[00:40:43]And um >> kind of that face to face moment.

[00:40:45]>> Yeah. I mean, it's just it's really hard to wrap my head around because, you know, there for me personally, the most understanding angle of this entire series of of heinous crimes is the Versace murder. You know, people >> people have a way sometimes of obsessing over celebrities and getting really fixated on personal details. From what I understand, it's really unclear whether or not Kunin actually had any type of interaction or had any type of encounter with Versace. It was never really proven or not. there were stories that maybe they had gone out a few times in like an extended group of people together where you know it it wouldn't be it wouldn't be totally un unimaginable or unrealistic because let's take it back to San Diego that's that's where they said that they had might have had their encounter >> right >> so back in San Diego Andrew Kuninan is running around in a very affluent circle of wealthy gay men and it would have been you know not uncommon. Maybe somebody had a connection to Versace.

[00:41:59]Maybe, you know, they were on that same level of social status or wealth and they knew that their friend was in town, so they invited him to come out and hang out and go on this, you know, nice adventure. That's that's how they kind of that's how he had posed the story. He said that there was some, oh, we had gone out and there was a limo and we went to dinner and went to a nightclub and it was so fabulous and blah blah blah blah blah, right?

[00:42:19]>> And and that story was never proven to be true or not. But what I was saying about the the connection of Kuninan and Versace to me is the most understandable because I've seen it firsthand where people get this weird and sick obsession with celebrities that maybe they've seen in the wild once, they've seen them in person once, so now you think you know this person.

[00:42:46]>> Or maybe you've seen them on TV a lot or you've seen them in the paper a lot. So you familiarize yourself with this person and you obsess over this person in some cases and and the reality is that they don't have a relationship at all and it becomes this obsessive stalker type you know uh fascination that he has with Versace which to me makes sense not you know that it's okay by any means but you could understand how he would get to this level of of disarray and desperation while he you know is essentially being rejected by somebody he doesn't know. So, he kills him.

[00:43:23]>> Well, and I mean, he he goes to South Miami and he's there for several weeks.

[00:43:30]>> So, is he stalking him? Was he planning it at the time? Did he go there specifically to to do that or did he hatch that plan while he was there?

[00:43:42]>> Yeah. Um it we of course we don't know but it's amazing to me that he was able to spend that kind of time essentially what most would consider a kind of a cool down time. Yeah.

[00:43:57]>> Maybe he's sort of stepping back and saying gee whiz what have I done and and where do I go from here?

[00:44:03]>> And he didn't do that. He didn't cool down one bit.

[00:44:08]>> No. So, and then he reaches out and and brutally murders Versace. And of course, that ensured his place in in history, so to speak.

[00:44:18]>> And I think that that that you just hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what he was after the whole time. He wanted to be remembered. He wanted to be more important than he really was. He was always obsessively associating himself with people that had social status and wealth so that he could, you know, assume the identity of being on the same level of importance. And in the end, you know, he by no means does he go down as one of these great criminal masterminds, somebody that, you know, most people actually don't know. But in a way, in the very end, he did get what he was after all along, which was some level of celebrity.

[00:44:59]>> Yeah. He didn't leave a note. And so there was no And and you wonder too, did he panic and say, "I'm not I'm not going to be captured. Forget it. I've ruined my life, so I'm just going to end my life." Maybe that kind of happened in the moment um when he actually decided to to leave this earth, but we don't know. He left. There was no nothing that indicated a pre-plan to end his life in that way.

[00:45:28]>> There has been speculation that he had intended to end his own life the entire time since the point that he did leave San Diego >> and that everything else that had happened along the way was leading up to that moment that he had already decided was going to happen.

[00:45:46]>> Sure. But it's impossible to say, of course, because again, there's there's no note, there's no confession, there's no admission, there's nothing behind the motive of, you know, any of these horrible things that he did.

[00:45:58]>> Right. Right. Well, you know, he spent his life chasing attention and fame and in the end he kind of forced his way into history uh by attaching himself to death.

[00:46:13]>> Yes. So there were five lives, one spree that began as a private rage and ended in the most public public spectacle you could imagine and internationally known for killing Versace.

[00:46:32]And maybe that's why the case still lingers because it never resolves in a really clean way. Mhm.

[00:46:38]>> It's it's only this terrible sequence of events that um Andrew Kuninan had succeeded though in one thing in doing all of that. He made sure that the world would never forget who he was.

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