Best Argument Against "Once Saved Always Saved"

Ajouté : 2026-05-22

[00:00:04]Bring Caleb on. Caleb, how you doing, sir?

[00:00:06]>> Hey, good. How are you?

[00:00:08]>> I'm I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful. Peachy King, >> it's nice to meet you.

[00:00:14]>> Nice to meet you, too.

[00:00:15]>> I do have a a couple of bones to pick with uh John 15.

[00:00:21]>> Go ahead.

[00:00:23]Um I don't felt like you know just cuz you keep reading and I do understand we have to keep reading to understand the full context of the verse. Um but I don't you know he says I am the true vine my father's the husband husbandman groomer every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away. So you're saying >> you're saying that an unsaved person could be a branch in Jesus in this parable?

[00:00:58]>> No.

[00:01:02]>> So what Jesus is saying here will never happen.

[00:01:07]>> So are you because the term every branch in me, right?

[00:01:13]>> You focus on the every branch in me.

[00:01:17]>> I'm saying every I'm saying In the parable, Jesus says, "I am the true vine." So, we know, we know he is the vine.

[00:01:24]>> We are the branches.

[00:01:26]>> So, in the parable, you're saying that an unsaved person >> can be in Jesus, a part of the vine.

[00:01:33]>> Who could possibly be in Jesus and not bear fruit? Let's think about this for a second. Can you think of some people that could possibly >> says here is is not possible?

[00:01:43]>> Hold on. Let's think about this for a second. Let's let's let's walk this out.

[00:01:46]Who could possibly be in in the Lord in Jesus and not bear fruit?

[00:01:54]This >> I agree.

[00:01:56]>> We Let's Let's rattle some things off.

[00:01:57]Some possibilities.

[00:02:00]>> Well, I want to stick to the text. But I agree.

[00:02:03]>> We are. No, we are the text. We're talking about the text.

[00:02:06]>> Who could possibly be in Jesus and not bear fruit? We're sticking to the text.

[00:02:11]>> I agree. No, nobody who abides in Jesus will not bear fruit.

[00:02:14]>> Okay. Has there ever been anybody in Jesus in the Lord who did not bear fruit that we know definitively?

[00:02:26]>> Well, that's speculative cuz we don't really know who was really in or not.

[00:02:31]But >> okay, hold on. Hold on. Let's prove that we can we can find someone that was in Jesus who did not bear fruit and was cut out. Let's let's let's see if we can figure this out. Um, how about if we now we're coming back to to to to John 15.

[00:02:49]>> Okay, we're coming back to John, but let's go to Romans. But if some of the branches were broken off and you be now, so these Jews, Israel, they were initially a part of this tree, right?

[00:03:07]>> We're talking about Romans 11.

[00:03:08]>> Romans 11. We So why were they broken off? Or or were they broken off?

[00:03:14]>> Unbelief. So we know of them that were broken off for unbelief.

[00:03:21]Jesus though, as we go back, let me where's my text at? As we go back to Jesus speaking, the branches in him that does not bear fruit. There's two poss there there's two possibilities. Someone who got in there and then stopped believing or the people that were already in him that were replacing him that didn't bear fruit and so he cuts them off. Well, that's who he's speaking of because that's what he's talking about. That's what Paul brings up in Romans 11.

[00:03:43]>> Mhm.

[00:03:44]>> Now, as we keep going, he says he takes away every branch that does not bear fruit.

[00:03:49]>> Yeah.

[00:03:49]>> He he prunes it so the ones that do bear fruit, he prunes them so that they may bear more fruit.

[00:03:55]>> So, here's my question.

[00:03:59]>> If a person I'm sorry, a a true believer, will a true believer bear fruit?

[00:04:07]Yes. If you abide in Jesus, you will bear fruit.

[00:04:10]>> Will a true believer abide in Jesus?

[00:04:12]Will a true believer keep abiding in in Jesus?

[00:04:15]>> Well, that's that's where we're going to have our our separation because I believe, you know, when he says, "Abide in me, if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." Mhm.

[00:04:26]>> So, the way that I take this parable and the way that I think you can plainly read this, I think it I think it points to my theology a little bit easier because, you know, I don't I don't have to do as many, you know, gymnastics around the text. Not saying you're doing that, not trying to.

[00:04:43]But if he says a man, if a man abide not in me, I just think that that is So you're saying the man that did not abide, which means he was in Jesus, was not a true believer.

[00:04:57]>> Okay. So if you don't abide, if you don't believe, if you don't bear fruit, you will be cut off. You will go to hell. So you're saying that they were not believers?

[00:05:13]>> No, no, no, no. What what what I'm stating is in agreement with you, if you don't abide, if you don't bear fruit, if you don't keep believing, all those things, if you don't keep following, you are going to hell.

[00:05:24]>> If you don't, >> yes.

[00:05:25]>> All right.

[00:05:26]>> You're cut off.

[00:05:27]>> All right.

[00:05:27]>> The branches.

[00:05:28]>> Is it possible for somebody to believe temporarily?

[00:05:35]>> I I believe so.

[00:05:36]>> You believe so? I do too. I do too. Is it possible for that true believer, I mean for that for the person that believes temporarily to have ever been a true believer with a born again heart?

[00:05:50]>> I believe yes and no.

[00:05:52]>> Okay, Jesus says no.

[00:05:56]>> Okay, >> this this issue about bearing fruit. So let's go to and let's just let's just read the whole parable this time. This is Luke 8. Now this is Jesus speaking.

[00:06:04]And this this refers back to John 15, by the way. Jesus >> Luke 8. I'm going to put it on the screen. By the way, Jesus makes a statement, a an important statement.

[00:06:13]>> Uhhuh. Jesus makes an important statement in John 15. So, we're going to go back to John 15 in a second. He says, "Now, this now the parable is this. The seed is the word of God." So, we know it's the word of God. It's the gospel.

[00:06:24]It's it's God's word.

[00:06:25]>> Those beside the road are those who have heard. So, these are people who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart.

[00:06:35]>> Yeah. So it's possible you can hear the word and in some kind of way the devil he doesn't tell us how but takes the word from their heart. All right.

[00:06:44]>> All right. So we're in agreement so far.

[00:06:46]So that they will not believe and be saved though. Now the word believe is uh pistoantes that is an ongoing belief.

[00:06:57]The believing. By the way, when the when the Bible describes Christians, he all he almost always describes us not as someone who believed, but the ones who are believing this constant ongoing belief. He's trying to make a point in the Greek that we that true believers keep believing.

[00:07:13]>> Greek, >> but he says here, so that they will not be believing and be saved >> because you have to keep believing to be saved. You can't believe and stop and be saved. I agree. And you agree with the same thing, right?

[00:07:25]>> Okay. He says those on the rocky soil, a different group of people on the rocky soil are those who when they hear receive the word, they hear the word with joy and gladness and but they have no firm root. It says they believe for a while. So it's possible for a person to believe for a while cuz Jesus just said they do.

[00:07:46]>> They believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Then the third set of people, the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard and as they go on their way, they are choked with the worries and riches and pleasures of this life and bring no fruit to maturity. In other words, they don't bear any fruit. So we got three sets of people here who all hear the word, they receive it, believe it, what have you, but something happens that later on they're not considered believers. They're not they're not part of this. Right? Mhm.

[00:08:17]>> Now notice when we get to verse 15, there's one key distinction between the person in verse 15 or the people in verse 15 versus those in 12, 13, and 14.

[00:08:27]>> But the seed in the good soil, wait a minute now. This this is good soil as compared to the soil that the other um in verses 12, 13, and 14 were. These are the ones who have heard the word, same gospel, same word of God, in an honest and good heart. Now, what's the difference? Well, the difference between verse 15 versus those in 14,13 and 12 is the heart. These people have a good heart or simply put a regenerated heart, a bornag again heart, a circumcised heart. The difference between those in 12,3 and 14 is their heart was never circumcised, regenerated or born again or born from above or born of the spirit. Versus this person, they have a good heart. And what does Jesus say happens to the person who has the good heart? The born again heart, the regenerated heart. He says they hold it fast. Hold what fast? The word.

[00:09:19]>> And they what? What do they do? They bear fruit. And how long? This word perseverance is forever.

[00:09:26]>> Continuing.

[00:09:27]>> Mine has patience.

[00:09:28]>> Says what?

[00:09:30]>> Mine says patience.

[00:09:31]>> Patience. The word that's used here.

[00:09:33]>> The the Greek word that's used here is the word uh hap hapane. That's that's if you look below me and I don't know if your screen is big enough, but it says endurance. Continuing. So they are going to bear fruit and keep the word continuously forever. Perseverance it doesn't stop. So now keeping that in mind he Jesus says >> the only thing I would say about this is verse 14 at the end of verse 14 he says and they bring no fruit to perfection.

[00:10:04]So they brought forth fruit which we know is impossible without >> without Jesus you can't bring forth fruit. Well, >> and even before he explained the parable, u verse seven is is coincided with verse 14. It says, "Some fell among thorns and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it."

[00:10:24]>> So there was growth and in my belief I don't I don't believe that you can have any spiritual growth without being born again. I you know >> you can have growth but it's not you can have growth but it's not true growth.

[00:10:36]You can So what would you call fruit?

[00:10:38]There's nothing that you would ever call fruit that you can't see the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist do temporarily or artificially. For example, the fruit of the spirit is love. Well, we see other people having love or joy or peace. It's not the same kind of peace.

[00:10:52]>> It's not a true peace, but it is some sort of fruit that if we saw it, okay, I I see. But it's not true fruit. It's not longlasting. It's not bearing. It doesn't continue. And that's the point in verse 14. He says that brings no fruit to maturity. It doesn't continue.

[00:11:05]But again, the point is verse 15. Verse 15 is a different kind of person altogether. This is a person who heard the exact same word.

[00:11:14]>> The difference is their heart has been born again, has been regenerated. And Jesus says that that person is going to hold it fast. That person is going to bear fruit and they're going to he's going to do that thing um continuously.

[00:11:28]So now let's go back to John 15 because again this was one of the sticking points of passages that made me believe that you could never that you would lose your salvation that you could die and go to hell if you don't bear fruit.

[00:11:38]>> Yeah. And I'll say about this parable in general in Mark you know he's telling the parable and Peter asked him he says this for us or you know why why are you telling this in parables and he says if you don't understand this parable then you're not going to understand any parable.

[00:11:52]>> So I I this parable is foundational to understanding the rest of the parable.

[00:11:57]Correct. Correct.

[00:11:58]>> And I I just I feel like where you're tripping up and where I would disagree with how you're interpreting this is that there was growth.

[00:12:09]>> There was fruit brought out.

[00:12:11]>> Forget forget about the growth because whatever whatever happened in those people in verses 12, 13, 14, those weren't true believers. Those aren't the ones we're talking about.

[00:12:21]Well, the ones that fell on the wayside, it says, you know, the devil comes, takes away the word out of their heart, lest they should believe and be saved.

[00:12:29]>> Be believing.

[00:12:30]>> Verse 13. Verse 13 literally says for a while believe >> they believe temporarily.

[00:12:36]>> I would take that as saved for a while.

[00:12:39]>> Okay. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question.

[00:12:41]>> Reading the text. Would you ever say a person who um is whose heart is un um circumcised, whose heart is not born again, whose heart is ungenerated? Let's say this person believes believes the exact same thing that you and I believe, but they don't have a they're not born again. Their heart is not regenerated. Is that person saved?

[00:13:04]>> That person truly saved? No. So So verses 12, 13, and 14, the people who don't have a good heart, regenerated heart, they're not saved. They can believe the same thing we believe.

[00:13:13]They're not >> Doesn't say anything about their heart in 123 and 14. It just says >> it says about their soil.

[00:13:20]>> Okay. It it speaks about their soil.

[00:13:22]What is the soil?

[00:13:23]>> Yeah.

[00:13:23]>> The soil is the heart.

[00:13:25]>> You could say the the soil is the heart, but I even then I think we're we're kind of adding into the text.

[00:13:29]>> Wait a minute. Hold on. Are you're saying the soil is not the not the heart?

[00:13:35]The soil, the soil is the heart. But I don't I don't see where you could say that 13 and 14.

[00:13:41]>> Okay. What kind of heart did they have in 12 13 and 14?

[00:13:46]>> He he describes them as a rock and 13.

[00:13:50]Right.

[00:13:50]>> Mhm.

[00:13:52]>> And then he says, >> "Is a rocky heart a good heart?

[00:13:56]>> Receive the word with joy."

[00:13:58]>> Hold on. Is is a rocky heart is a rocky heart a good song?

[00:14:03]>> Is a rocky heart a good heart?

[00:14:08]>> A stony heart is not a good heart.

[00:14:10]>> Exactly. Because Hebrews 36:25 226 27.

[00:14:13]Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone, this rocky heart, from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And then look what he says. I will, this is what God says he's going to do. I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes. So what does he promise to do?

[00:14:33]Do this. And what are they going to do?

[00:14:34]The result the result of what he says they're going to do. They're going to do it. We don't have to agree with it because God has not said that hey if you it's only going to happen if you agree with it. He's told us I'm going to put my spirit in you and cause you the word the Hebrew word there is assa to make you do this. You will. Why? Because the power of of the of the Holy Spirit in your heart regenerating it. And the power of the Holy Spirit in you that's powerful. We disregard too often the power of the Holy Spirit in us. We do that too often as as though the Holy Spirit ain't God. Those who are led by the spirit, those are son of God. So he does his job. So let's go back to 15.

[00:15:09]This issue of >> I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm going to get back to 15. I I just feel like that interpretation still fails.

[00:15:17]>> How and Luke >> verse Yes. Luke 8.

[00:15:21]>> Mhm. Verse 12 says, "The devil comes, takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

[00:15:27]And then immediately after that, he talks about they on the rock, which when they hear receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in the time of temptation fall away.

[00:15:38]>> What kind of heart do they have though?

[00:15:41]>> They have a rocky heart. But >> okay, can a rocky heart can a person with a rocky heart be saved?

[00:15:47]>> It literally says that they would believe and be saved. Okay. So that they won't be believing. So that they Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. They won't be believing.

[00:15:57]>> The be believing part is the important part. A person with the heart of stone is not saved.

[00:16:02]>> Can Okay. Can a person with a heart of Can a person listen. Can a person with a heart of stone be saved?

[00:16:12]>> I I still feel like it's a little bit of a reach with the heart. But >> can a person with the heart of stone be saved?

[00:16:17]>> No. Well then why do you think this person 13 was ever saved?

[00:16:22]>> Because in verse 12 it says lest they should believe and be saved.

[00:16:25]>> Verse 12 is a different group. Verse 12 is a different group of people.

[00:16:29]>> Verse 12 is a different group of people.

[00:16:31]>> Spiritual growth 14 they actually did bring.

[00:16:34]>> Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Verse 13 is a different group of people than verse 12. Right.

[00:16:40]>> Yes.

[00:16:40]>> Okay. So the let's stick with verse 13.

[00:16:43]They have a heart of stone. You just said a person with a heart of stone can't can't be saved. So we can go ahead.

[00:16:51]>> Huh?

[00:16:52]>> So you're saying the people in 12 had a good heart.

[00:16:54]>> Hold on. Let's hold on. Hold on. Let's do with verse 13 first. Verse 13. We can put a cross through and say an X through and say they weren't saved cuz you by your own admittance a person with a heart of stone can't be saved. Right?

[00:17:07]>> It says that these people were on the rock.

[00:17:11]>> What kind of soil do they have? They had a rocky soil.

[00:17:15]Right.

[00:17:16]>> Okay. He's using these words intentionally.

[00:17:19]He comes to get rid of that heart of stone, that rocky heart. Right. You just admitted it earlier a few minutes, a few seconds ago.

[00:17:27]>> You make a good case.

[00:17:28]>> Okay. Now, so, so, so we can cross out verse 13. Now, we can go to verse 12.

[00:17:32]Those beside the road are those who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart. So, they won't be believing and be saved. So these aren't people who are going who are believing and be saved, are they?

[00:17:46]>> So the wayside people have a good heart or what does look like?

[00:17:50]>> No, it just says it takes the word the away from the word from their heart. So he's not going to allow the the word to take root in their heart so that they won't be believing and be saved. Are these people believing people?

[00:18:02]>> I just I I don't I don't feel like the point of the parable is the heart. I feel like it's it's showing you that there's there's things that are gonna people are going to believe and fall away.

[00:18:15]>> Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. You don't think the point of this world >> Caleb you just said you don't think the point of the parable is the heart when in verse 12 it's the heart in verse 13 the it's a stone heart right in verse 14 the seed fell among these thorns which are the ones that have heard and on their way they are choked with words.

[00:18:34]That's the one that that's the only verse the only passage that doesn't have um heart in it. In verse 15, it's the heart. And you say the point is not the heart.

[00:18:42]>> So what would you say 14 is?

[00:18:44]>> Well, we we'll get to 14 in a second.

[00:18:45]We'll get to 14 in a second. But in verse 12, are they believing?

[00:18:49]>> They do not believe.

[00:18:50]>> Okay. So we can cross them out also as believers.

[00:18:54]Right.

[00:18:55]>> Verse 12, yes, is definitely not saved.

[00:18:57]>> Okay. So 12 and 13. So 12, >> they were not saved.

[00:19:00]>> So 12 and 13 are not saved. Verse 14, the seed which fell among thee, the thorns. These are the ones who have heard and as they go on their way are choked with the worries and riches and pleasures of this life and bring no fruit to maturity.

[00:19:16]>> Yep.

[00:19:17]>> Now they bring no fruit to maturity.

[00:19:19]They are carried. They carry about by the worries of the world, the riches of the world, the pleasures of this life, bills, making money, I got a lot of money, I have no money, all these different things. They bring no fruit to mature. is they are choked with these things. They go on their way. They have heard the word and that's it. As a matter of fact, let's also compare this to Matthew 13 because it's exact same parable. And in these they give some some different uh some not different but some added what is it? I forget which verse this is. Um >> there it is. Uh verse 21 verse 22. And the one verse 22 and the one whom the seed was sown among the thorns. This is the one who hears the word and the worry of the world uh and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word and it becomes unfruitful.

[00:20:09]So the word in them becomes unfruitful.

[00:20:12]Right. Would you say that that that among the thorns is he that heareth the word present tense Greek verb heareth >> and the care and the >> deceive >> hears that's a present tense Greek verb in my Bible >> Uhhuh. which means what?

[00:20:33]>> Which means what?

[00:20:34]>> Well, Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice." Present tense Greek verb.

[00:20:38]>> Okay. Which means what? Because we hear a present tense Greek verb means what?

[00:20:42]It just means continuous.

[00:20:44]>> No, it doesn't. It does not. It doesn't.

[00:20:46]Present tense does not always mean a continuous action. Not in the Greek. It does not.

[00:20:52]>> There are times where it might >> because it's a present tense participle.

[00:20:56]>> It does not always mean an ongoing hearing, but they are hearing the word.

[00:21:01]Let's just say they're hearing the word.

[00:21:02]Fine. They are hearing the word. And >> are there people out there who are unsaved who are hearing the word?

[00:21:12]No, because Jesus said that you cannot hear my word. You cannot understand my word because you're not you're not of God. He said these words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are alive. So we cannot hear his word.

[00:21:27]>> So all these Muslims, all these Buddhists, all these atheists, all your friends who have been hearing the word and are unsaved, they're not hearing the word.

[00:21:36]>> I mean, are they are they hearing it in a sense of present tense? They're hearing it like it's making sense.

[00:21:41]>> They keep hearing it. I don't I don't have the right to try to infer what the meaning is. I just know the word hearing.

[00:21:46]>> What does your um what does your uh study tool say that definition of that word is?

[00:21:52]>> It means an ongoing hearing, but it or hearing. It can be hearing. It can be auditly curious. I wasn't trying.

[00:22:04]>> I'm telling you how how we know this is not an indepth hearing and receiving of it is because it says that as they go on the word or they heard as they heard the word they go on their way and the and the world chokes this out of them >> and they bring no bring forth no maturity. So if the power is in the word and the word doesn't produce anything in them then is it the exact same um filling of the word that let's say you and I have? No, it couldn't be. No, no maturity, no fruit, no nothing.

[00:22:33]Yeah. Well, >> now, but >> there's a lot there's, you know, if this was the only passage in the Bible, then we would, you know, we'd be >> It's not It's not But but but you said, you said yourself, you said yourself, this is a foundational truth, >> and it's coming out of Jesus's mouth.

[00:22:47]So, he says, "But, but is a word of what?"

[00:22:51]>> But is a word of what? Contrast, right?

[00:22:53]So in in contrast to these people here, in contrast to those in 12, 13, and 14, the seed in the good soil, we already we already stipulated that the good soil is a good heart. Is a heart. The good heart, the soil is a heart. And in this case, it's a good heart. The only way to get a good heart is that the heart be born again, circumcised, regenerated.

[00:23:18]That's the only way. That's the only way. Mhm.

[00:23:21]>> So the good heart or the good soil.

[00:23:24]Okay.

[00:23:24]>> I just >> the way I would interpret this is you know and especially it says that and he becomes unfruitful. So he was fruitful for a time and Jesus says in John 15 without me you cannot bear fruit.

[00:23:37]>> Well hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on.

[00:23:40]What sort of fruit are we speaking of?

[00:23:43]>> Well this is Jesus's words. So I'm assuming he knows what kind of fruit he's talking about.

[00:23:47]>> Okay. If it's Jesus's word, then don't discount what he says here in verse 15.

[00:23:52]He says the person here, okay? So, so the person with the good heart or the good soil, these people, they're the ones who've heard the word in an honest and good heart, right?

[00:24:06]>> And what does this honest and good heart do? He's telling us what it's going to do. it it's going to cause them to hold the word forever with perseverance and to bear fruit with perseverance. So if I come back and say but they won't bear fruit with perseverance if they got a good heart that's literally it's a definition of contradiction he says they will bear fruit forever. So if you got a good heart >> he says with an honest and good heart they hold it >> and they bear fruit. So if a person hears the word and receives the word with a born again heart, you only can be born again if you're saved. You're only saved if you're born again, right? So if you have a born again, regenerated, circumcised heart and you receive the word, are you going to forever keep the word and bear fruit according to this text?

[00:24:54]>> Well, Peter says we're born again by the word of God.

[00:24:59]>> So how did these people already >> according to this text? Just hold on.

[00:25:02]according to this text, unless we got a whole bunch of contradictions.

[00:25:05]>> That's what I'm saying. You're kind of reading into it.

[00:25:07]>> I'm asking you.

[00:25:08]>> I feel like you're reading into it a little more than the point that he made.

[00:25:11]>> Caleb, I'm literally asking you. I'm not reading anything. I'm asking you now.

[00:25:14]>> According to this text, am I correct when he says that the person >> who has a regenerated, born again heart, when they hear the word, will they keep the word regenerated, born again heart, he says, >> Okay, I just asked you earlier. Hold on.

[00:25:31]I asked you earlier. is a good heart, a born again regenerated heart. You said yes.

[00:25:35]>> Well, the Bible says that our heart is desperately wicked.

[00:25:38]>> Okay. That's why he that's why that's why he Okay, Caleb. The heart is desperately wicked, horrible, rotten, which is why he makes promises to fix the heart. That's why Ezekiel 36, let's go back to Ezekiel 36. His promise is to put his spirit in our heart and to do what? Remove the heart of stone. to give us a brand new heart and then put his spirit in us and cause us to walk. So you're right, the heart is desperately wicked. But then he promises to fix the heart. And in fixing the heart, he's going to cause us to do something. So now let's go back again. So I thought we were making it inroads. Let's back up.

[00:26:16]Is a good heart a born again, regenerated, circumcised heart?

[00:26:22]>> Yes, it should be.

[00:26:23]>> Okay, then. So now we don't have to come back and revisit this part. So in verse 15 here, what does it say? The person, this good heart, this born again, regenerated heart that you just stipulated to, what does Jesus say they will do with the word?

[00:26:40]>> It says they hold it and they bear fruit.

[00:26:43]>> How long will they hold the hold the word?

[00:26:47]>> With patience is what mine says.

[00:26:49]Endurance.

[00:26:50]>> Which means what? Which means what?

[00:26:54]It means that they do it with endurance.

[00:26:57]>> Exactly.

[00:26:58]>> That's literally what it means.

[00:26:59]>> Forever. Also, how long will they bear fruit?

[00:27:03]>> I don't know that you can say forever.

[00:27:05]>> Okay. All right. Stop. Is it possible to continue? Okay. Is it poss It it would be an oxymoron to say I continue and I stop. That's not continuing.

[00:27:17]>> This word hypopan means to continue or with endurance. these specific people that he's talking about are the people.

[00:27:23]But you you got to realize when I'm reading this parable under my theology, I believe that I mean I think you could even make a case for the people that you know received the word on the rock were saved because they believed for a time.

[00:27:38]But I definitely think the people that received the word were saved. But I'm saying you have to understand the way I'm reading this passage because the way that I would interpret this the verse 20 in verse in the people that receive it with the good heart are the people who are going to keep the word a direct commandment. They keep it and they bear fruit with with patience that these are the people who do endure until the end.

[00:28:02]>> Those who we're talking about those those are the true believers. Those are the ones whose hearts been been born again regenerated.

[00:28:08]Does it say that they weren't true believers or does it say that they >> I asked Hold on. Hold on. I asked you.

[00:28:15]You said yes. I asked you if you are born again, are you a true believer? And I You said yes. I said if you are a true believer, are you born again? You said yes. I asked you, "Is it possible to be a true believer and not be born again?"

[00:28:28]You said no. So, we've already agreed to these things. Clearly, I believe that you can be born again, saved by God, and then fall away. That's why I'm here.

[00:28:39]>> Okay. Because what you just said about three minutes ago is according to my theology.

[00:28:44]>> According to my theology, I'm sorry.

[00:28:46]>> You said according to my theology. We're looking at the text. According to the text, Jesus is saying, you will always endure in bearing fruit. You will you will hold the word fast continuously.

[00:28:58]You will bear fruit continuously. That's what the word means. You can't I I can't get past that part. Now, let's pause.

[00:29:03]>> John 15.

[00:29:04]>> Let's go back to John 15.

[00:29:06]>> Let's go back to John 15.

[00:29:08]>> Yeah.

[00:29:08]>> John 15. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken in you.

[00:29:13]Abide in me. It's a command. Abide in me and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit. Now, we don't have to read all of this because I agree with the point that if you don't abide, if you don't bear fruit, even though we just read a text that says that if if you're born again, you will bear fruit. But I believe you have to bear fruit. I believe you have to abide. I believe you have to keep believing. I have to I believe you have to keep following. I believe all those things. And if you stop doing those things, you will die and go to hell.

[00:29:39]That was the problem in the Old Testament.

[00:29:42]>> All that's impossible.

[00:29:43]>> Hold on. You're truly >> regenerated. Hold on. Hold on. In the Old Testament, that was the problem.

[00:29:49]They would believe for a moment. They would follow for a moment. They would bear fruit for a moment. They would do good for a moment and then stop. All those things were possible. and then they would stop. God brings up a remedy.

[00:30:03]The remedy is to do what? As he says from the very beginning on to fix their heart. So when God says, "I'm going to fix your heart. And when doing so, it's going to cause you to follow me to to follow my commands in my statutes." And in doing so, you will never turn away from me. And I will never turn away from you. That's his point. That's the reason why he's putting it in your heart.

[00:30:28]Because previously, I would give you prophets. I would send signs. I would send angels, even the angel of the Lord, things on the outside to make you follow me and punish you to make you follow me.

[00:30:39]Now, I'm going to work on the inside, which is a heart.

[00:30:42]>> Yeah.

[00:30:43]>> So, now I'm going to do those things.

[00:30:44]>> I agree with all that.

[00:30:45]>> Okay. So, I'm going to fix your heart.

[00:30:46]Now, I agree.

[00:30:48]>> I got to do a little more research, but I'm Ezekiel 36. I'm almost I'm almost convinced that he's talking about the second coming of Jesus Christ when we are made like >> No, he's not. He's absolutely not.

[00:31:00]Ezekiel 11, Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, Jeremiah 36, Hosea, Amos, Deuteronomy, all of these are speaking about what Jesus is going to do to the heart. What the Lord is going to do to the heart in the future. It's not about the second coming. It's about him changing Israel's heart. He's going to do that.

[00:31:15]>> Do what?

[00:31:16]>> Does Jesus ever say that he's going to do that?

[00:31:18]>> Do what?

[00:31:20]what you're talking about. Ezekiel 36 Jeremiah >> God God says he's going to do that. This is Yahweh speaking. Jesus is Yahweh. So yes.

[00:31:27]>> Yes. I know. Yes. I agree. The Bible.

[00:31:30]I'm saying God is God has promised >> Jesus in the red letters. Do we have that anywhere in the New Testament where anybody says you are going to be you you're given a new heart or is that only an Old Testament prophecy? Is there anywhere in the New Testament where he's saying you're giving a new given a new heart?

[00:31:51]>> You will be given a new heart. Yes.

[00:31:53]>> All throughout the New Testament. But hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[00:31:55]Because I don't want to go through those texts just yet. If you remind me before we finish, I'll go we'll pull up text that talks about uh being given a new heart.

[00:32:02]>> You can even give me some and I can I can read them later if you got >> Well, hold on. Okay. So, let's let's go back to John 15. I agree because again, this was a text that used to hold me. I agree that you've got to do all those things and if you don't then you will be cut off.

[00:32:16]>> Yes.

[00:32:17]>> All right. Now, or you'll be burned up, go to hell.

[00:32:21]>> Yes.

[00:32:22]>> So, let's keep reading though. It's the point that I that that we do in John 15.

[00:32:27]In John 15, we stop. I used to stop at 9, 10, and 11 cuz yes, see, if you don't do those things, you're going to hell.

[00:32:35]But my pastor would say, "Well, Corey, keep reading." And I would fight them.

[00:32:38]Here I am. Here I am one of the miners at the church and I believe that we can do salvation where the church doesn't believe that. But he says, "Corey, just keep reading." He says, "Corey, you keep reading and you tell me what this is."

[00:32:49]He says, "This is my command in verse 12 that you love one another just as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this and he laid down his own life. You are my friends if you do what I command you to do. No longer do I call you slaves. For the slave does not know what his master is doing, but I have called you friends. For all things that I have heard from my father, I have made known to you." Look at verse 16.

[00:33:09]Yep.

[00:33:10]>> What does verse 16 mean to you? Go ahead and read that for me.

[00:33:13]>> It says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you appointed that you should that you should go and bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain that what whatsoever you shall ask of my father in my name."

[00:33:27]>> We can pause there. So he says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you." Is there is there an order to that?

[00:33:35]>> Yes. Jesus chose us first. Okay. Then second, and then what did he do after he chose you? What does he say he did?

[00:33:43]>> Appointed us.

[00:33:44]>> What is what has appointed you that you should bear fruit? What does that mean?

[00:33:47]I appointed you that you will go and bear or that you would go and bear fruit. What does that mean?

[00:33:51]>> Well, my version says should, but >> Okay. Should or would is should it should it be taken as wood?

[00:33:58]>> Okay.

[00:34:00]H >> what's that? Should it be taken as would or should or how should it be taken?

[00:34:07]>> Um, I'm not sure. I'd have to read the original Greek and see what they say.

[00:34:11]>> Okay, let me read it for you. Kaya hen.

[00:34:15]Now, whenever you see, first of all, this word means to appoint or to plan or to aortion you to do so.

[00:34:20]>> Right? So, whatever he plans, whatever he appoints biblically all throughout scripture, it happens >> every time, 100% of the time. So, he says, "Aa, I have planned. and I have placed you to do so. Now, when you have this humace and this humace is I'm sorry, hum when you have a henna clause, it tells you why. And then when you have a subjunctive, which you have right here, um, hypogete, which is a subjunctive. Whenever you have a henna followed by a subjunctive, it means it will happen.

[00:34:52]So, hah, um, I'm sorry, I put it back on the screen. Hen habagete kai karpan. So in order that you will go and bear fruit. So what has Jesus just said? I have planned that you will aortion you.

[00:35:04]I have ordained. I have appointed you that you will go and bear fruit. So now yes you have to bear fruit. Yes it must remain. Yes you must abide. Jesus said and guess what I have appointed you to do just that. It will happen.

[00:35:23]So like I said because I agree with all that you should you should go bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain.

[00:35:32]>> Will you according to Jesus?

[00:35:34]>> We have no excuse.

[00:35:35]>> So no no no no no no no no no excuse.

[00:35:38]Will you bear fruit and that fruit remain?

[00:35:42]>> So you're so what you're telling me is if we go back to the first the second verse.

[00:35:46]>> No no no no. I agree with all those things. Hold on. We don't have to go back to all that. I agree with everything you're saying. There's no dispute there.

[00:35:52]>> I know you agree with it, but hold on.

[00:35:55]Every branch in me that bears not fruit, he takes it away. But you're telling me that the branch in Jesus was not a true believer. Because if he was a true believer, >> I'm telling you that the branch that's in him that he's speaking of, remember, he's got two people in mind. He's got these Jews and then upcoming he's got these Gentiles. Are the Jews in Jesus?

[00:36:19]Are they considered branches in Jesus?

[00:36:24]>> Well, I'm not sure.

[00:36:25]>> Yes, they are. Otherwise, how how would branches be broken off?

[00:36:29]>> Otherwise, how would branches be broken off?

[00:36:31]>> The law in >> Okay, so the Jews were branches that were in in in the Lord and he broke them off. Why? Because they didn't believe. Then you got these Gentiles who are going to show up. Now, God is promising that he the Lord is promising that he's appointed you to go and bear fruit and that it shall remain.

[00:36:53]>> You are going to bear fruit and it's going to remain.

[00:36:56]>> Now, let me just say this vers let me say this. Let me say this.

[00:36:59]>> Romans 11, he says that the Gentiles can be cut off, too.

[00:37:02]>> Hold on. Hold on. I I've got to save that for someone else. I got to go ahead and move on. But here's the truth of of John 15. In truth, we shouldn't use John 15 because he is talking to the disciples.

[00:37:16]He's talking and in all likelihood, he's talking to them. But if someone says no, he's talking this for all of us, fine.

[00:37:22]If it's for all of us, then he's saying that me and you, Caleb, he's appointed to go and bear fruit and that our fruit will remain.

[00:37:30]So, you can't get past that. You can't say, "Well, John 15, but he's telling you, he's just telling you that I appointed you to go and bear fruit and your fruit will remain." You can't come back and say, "Well, I won't bear fruit." Well, if >> you're thinking that when he says the branch, the branch in him that does not bear fruit, he's talking about the Jews.

[00:37:47]>> Well, aren't the branches that are in him that don't bear fruit, well, aren't they cut off?

[00:37:52]>> Yes, they're cut off.

[00:37:53]>> And and >> what I'm saying is because the Bible also says that all scripture is given by inspiration from God, profitable for doctrine, reproof, teaching.

[00:38:02]So, I believe that we can take all of scripture and apply it to ourselves.

[00:38:07]>> Yeah. Yeah, we got to read the Bible in context. I agree.

[00:38:09]>> Whoa, whoa, hold. Back up, back up, back up. What did you just say?

[00:38:14]>> All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine or fruit.

[00:38:17]>> No, no, no, no. You said that we can take all of it and apply it to ourselves.

[00:38:23]>> I said you got to read it in context. I agree with you there.

[00:38:25]>> Okay. Okay. Okay. We listen, you almost made the whole crash.

[00:38:29]>> Okay. Because we can't apply all scriptures to ourselves.

[00:38:31]>> We got to do hermeneutics.

[00:38:33]>> Okay.

[00:38:33]>> But I don't see I don't see why we couldn't take this and apply to ourselves. what you can do.

[00:38:37]>> That's fine. Listen. Listen. If you want to apply it to yourself, if you want to apply it to yourself, he just told you that he is going to he appoints you that you will bear fruit in order that your fruit will remain. And guess what? You can't get past that. Then if this is for you, then you got to take >> say that I have a choice to abide in Jesus or not.

[00:38:58]>> You have what?

[00:39:00]>> I have a choice in the matter. I have a choice. What did Jesus What did Jesus What did Jesus say he he did? Was it your Was it your choice to appoint you or was it Jesus's choice to appoint you?

[00:39:12]Did you say this applies to you?

[00:39:14]>> Huh?

[00:39:14]>> He chose me.

[00:39:16]>> Oh, >> correct.

[00:39:17]>> Is is that is that your choice or his choice that caused him to choose you?

[00:39:21]>> Well, I didn't have a choice in him choosing me, but I believe I have a choice after.

[00:39:25]>> Okay. So, he did the choosing. Do you think his choosing affected you in any way, shape, form, or fashion?

[00:39:31]>> Yes.

[00:39:32]>> Okay. Then and he tells us in doing so he he appointed you that your fruit in order that your fruit so he he appointed you why in order that here's the result of his appointing you that you are going to bear fruit and that is going to remain.

[00:39:49]>> Okay.

[00:39:49]>> So that's him. That's him. That applies to you and me.

[00:39:52]>> I still I still feel like I I can be cut off.

[00:39:57]>> He just told you you're going to bear fruit and it's going to remain. How then would you be cut off?

[00:40:02]Because your theology tells you that >> you should go and bear fruit and that it should remain.

[00:40:07]>> You should or you will.

[00:40:10]>> Mine says should.

[00:40:12]>> Mine says should.

[00:40:13]>> Okay.

[00:40:15]>> How how much how much how much Greek do you know?

[00:40:19]>> I I don't know. Like if if if this was all in Greek, I could not read it. I would have to go and look at the Greek definition of the verbs.

[00:40:26]>> So these phrases here, henna, uhoh.

[00:40:30]First of all, start with here kai humas I chose you. I mean I'm sorry I appointed you. This phrase right here in order that when you have this hoc clause this means this means this is the reason why he did so. In order that so whatever follows especially if we see a subjunctive then it's going to happen.

[00:40:51]It will happen. You can take the poetry of the King James version of should if you want to. It doesn't nullify the Greek. It's going to happen.

[00:40:59]>> No, I agree. Got to go back.

[00:41:01]>> So therefore, so therefore, your theology has to take a backseat to what the text says. And you, by the way, I don't know if you if you if you if you caught this. When you go back and watch this, you're going to just have started right. How many times did I agree with Corey, but then my conclusion?

[00:41:16]>> I agree with most of what you say. I just >> You know where you are. You know where you are, Caleb? Let me tell you where you are. You are you are you are right there with me because I Caleb young brother I fought and fought and fought and fought and fought and fought and fought and fought and fought. They had me in meetings and I'm talking to these the other elders and so forth like ah I disagree you guys are wrong. James 5 uh Romans all these texts I'm bringing up I'm bringing and it just after a while >> you say about Hebrews 6 about a partaker of the Holy Ghost.

[00:41:46]>> Okay let let me go there and then I got I gota let you go because there's a lot of folks other folks that are waiting.

[00:41:50]Let's go to Hebrews 6. No problem with Hebrews 6.

[00:41:57]Hebrews 6. And let's go.

[00:41:58]>> That's the same word. It's the same Greek word that he uses in uh chapter 3 when he says that uh we are made partakers with Christ.

[00:42:06]>> Okay. I'm not saying Listen, I don't argue that these aren't believers. I don't argue that.

[00:42:10]>> Okay.

[00:42:11]>> So, >> okay. I'd like to see >> the book of Hebrews is written to who?

[00:42:16]>> Hebrew Christians.

[00:42:18]>> Jewish believers. Exactly. which is why he makes this state, why he's taking from the beginning all the way through, he's talking about Jewish law and all those things like that. Right >> now, yeah, in the law, >> what would the By the way, it's only been about 30 years since the Jews have had to move away from the law. They're still fighting the law. They're still wanting to go back to the law. Right?

[00:42:37]>> So, in the law, when you are atoned for, you feel good. You're justified. By the way, we we we may want to do a study on what it means to be justified. has to be declared righteous and treated as such.

[00:42:49]And God says we're justified. But now, let's leave it there. But for the Jews, you're justified temporarily. And when you sin, what do you have to do? You got to go back and atone for your sin again.

[00:42:59]Either by on the day of atonement or by these various offerings. That's the issue with the Jews. Right now, let's continue.

[00:43:07]So, he's speaking about these believers and the writer of Hebrews is trying to comfort them. As a matter of fact, he tells them that you need to have your confidence in this day. He go at the very end he sums up by saying you need to have this confidence in this day and oh by the way of the things I'm saying before that might have an issue that you might have an issue with that's not you Paul I mean Paul the writer of Hebrews says I'm conf this ain't this ain't even you but he's talking to these Jews cuz they have this old covenant way of thinking cuz that's all they knew.

[00:43:37]It'd be like if all of a sudden they got rid of the Constitution uh on Monday.

[00:43:45]I'm gonna always look at things in America from the standpoint of the Constitution, but I have I gota I I got to get used to a new rule. I got to get you. So, the Jews are having a hard time getting used to this. But he says, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, let me move this down so I can put my Greek up there right alongside of it. And have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit." Do I think that these are people that are actual believers? Yes. I'm not like some people say, "Well, no, these aren't real believers." No, the these are believers uh partakers of the Holy Spirit and have it having tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then having fallen away. Wait a minute.

[00:44:30]These believers can fall away.

[00:44:33]Well, we miss all of that. This is one long um uh run-on sentence. Everything in here is true or it's a statement.

[00:44:42]Either what he's stating is a statement of fact or he might be speaking hypothetically.

[00:44:48]Here's why he might be speaking hypothetically. Because of the next statement he says, by the way, he says, "How you read this is you take this part right here and you add it to this part right here.

[00:45:09]Let me make Let me highlight that part.

[00:45:11]Dog on it. Where's my thing at? Okay.

[00:45:14]Oh, I see what it is. Hold on. Let me let me reduce this so then I can do it.

[00:45:19]All right. Now, let's make it bigger.

[00:45:21]So, for in the case of those who have once been enlightened, having tasted the heavenly gift, he says, "It is impossible to renew them." I'm sorry.

[00:45:29]I'm sorry. And have fallen away. I'm I'm sorry. And then have fall gone it. Come on. And then have fallen away. It is impossible to renew them. So all so the things the other things in there are important but it's just kind of adding to his point and and then have fallen away. What does he say?

[00:45:47]>> What does he say?

[00:45:50]It's impossible to renew them again.

[00:45:53]>> Let me ask you a question. If a person loses their salvation, can they get saved again? in your theology.

[00:46:05]>> I I do believe that somebody can repent and come back to God. Yeah.

[00:46:09]>> Okay. Now, here's the point that the writer is making because remember talking about these >> in this case he's saying that it's impossible.

[00:46:15]>> Yeah. Why? Because he's talking to these Jews who don't they're not getting it.

[00:46:19]He says why? Since they again crucified themselves to the son of God and put him to open shame. So in their mind, cuz remember if you sin under under the old covenant way of atonement, let's say I got I got Joey here.

[00:46:39]Joey is going to be sacrificed and shed his coffee for my sins, right? This is the this is the required sacrifice.

[00:46:49]And so if it happens, let's say this happens on Monday and I have according to the old covenant, I have humbled or afflicted my soul.

[00:47:00]The sins have been confessed on the head of the scapegoat. The blood has been shed. The offering has been made and the high priest has gone in to make mediation or intercession on my behalf.

[00:47:13]Right?

[00:47:15]Let's say later on in the year, let's say 5 months, 8 months later, I have fallen.

[00:47:24]I'm now I'm in an unrighteous state.

[00:47:29]Can this can the sacrifice that was made seven, eight months ago be used again to atone for my sins?

[00:47:39]>> No.

[00:47:39]>> No. I need a new sacrifice, don't I?

[00:47:43]accord according to according to the old covenant way, the Jewish way, I need a new sacrifice.

[00:47:48]>> Yes, >> they can't get a new sacrifice >> because there's only one. So if Jesus's sacrifice, if after that you were found unatoned for or in an unrighteous state, you can't get it back because there will never be another sacrifice again. His point to them is that if you did fall away, it's impossible cuz ain't no more Jesus getting back on the cross. His point to them is that ain't the case.

[00:48:17]That's why he goes on in chapter 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 to make the point that you are good. You have been sanctified. You have been saved forever. There is no more need of sin to be taken away because Jesus already paid for all of the sins.

[00:48:33]>> I never heard that tape before.

[00:48:34]>> Yeah. So now and I I used I used to think that I I would hear people try to get around and said no these aren't these aren't true. Yeah they are. His point is you Jewish folks are thinking like Jews.

[00:48:42]>> Yeah that's >> so there's one sacrifice >> that's the argument I use here.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah that's and it bothers me when they say that. So in so in Colossians 2 in Colossians 2 he says that the debt that was owed was nailed to the cross. That's why the beauty of what Jesus says in John 19 to telly it is to telly is a perfect tense means it's already been completed. Why are you saying it's already been completed Jesus? You're still alive because he's hearkening back to Leviticus 16 and 17 the plan that was laid in place also back in uh Genesis 3 and and some of the various else the various plans that he's made to save people. So when you say to Telsty, it's also again it correlates with Colossians 2 that the debt is paid. There will never ever ever be another debt paid. If there I mean owed if there's another debt owed, you can't be saved. That's what he's saying in in Hebrews 6. It's impossible. So what happens is we look at the falling away. Aha. See, there's a falling away. But he says, "Okay, fine.

[00:49:45]If there is, then it's impossible. So if somebody falls away, tell them to go and live how they want to live because they ain't never getting it back. Might as well enjoy this side of hell.

[00:49:53]But we don't believe that. We believe that there is we we believe that fa we we believe that living in sin or having bad doctrine that those aren't the unpardonable sins. So you can be pardoned right now. So that can't mean that a person could lose their salvation. Cuz if they could, they could never get it back. But if they did lose their salvation, you need a brand new offering. Jesus's offering would never sacrif I mean suffice for you because he's not getting back on the cross. if that sacrifice isn't good anymore or going forward because that's not how atonement works.

[00:50:26]So that's his point in >> so you're basically saying that what Paul's talking about is completely hypothetical. He's making he's just making this point to the Jews so that they'll understand >> so they can understand >> Jesus's sacrifice.

[00:50:37]>> Exactly. And they they they understand sacrifice. They they they understand the atonement. As a matter of fact, he goes into indepth in it in in uh in Hebrews 9:10. By the way, it's not Paul that that makes a statement. We know it's not Paul because Paul says that this revelation I mean not Paul but the writer of Hebrews says that this revelation was given to to us. That's not how Paul's revelations. Paul says that I was a firsthand witness of it and no man told me this. So it can't be Paul. Now who it was we don't know.

[00:51:01]>> Okay.

[00:51:02]>> Could be a is debated. I've heard Paul >> I'm not too tough on that.

[00:51:08]>> So So um I will someone's going to ask me if they haven't they'll ask me about Hebrews 10:26. I'll cover that before I leave if no one else asked me that question. I only got a little a few more a little bit time so I I need to go ahead and move on. But Caleb, this has been good, brother. I appreciate it.