This is a sharp critique of how the Black Church has traded its radical roots for the hollow promises of individual prosperity and capitalism. It correctly argues that true liberation requires collective organizing rather than just celebrating "Black faces in high places."
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The Most Powerful Institution Black America Has — And We're Wasting ItAjouté :
We are back deconstructing harmful theology, building beloved community.
Um, and this is Holy Smokes. I'm I'm smoking. You know, TFC live is every Wednesday. Sometimes we recording an episode of Holy Smoke. Sometimes we just doing a, you know, a a live interview every now and then. I might hop on here and just do a Christian conversation.
Although I haven't done a Christian conversation in a long time. I might need to maybe I'll do a Christian conversation in April. Maybe one of those Wednesdays. Would that be okay?
Y'all would y'all be cool if you just had to deal with me for one Wednesday night? Um, I'll do a Christian conversation for TFC Live in April. But today we have the man, the myth, the legend FD Signifier is with us. Uh, we are excited to have him. We got to give him a hand.
FD signifier is such a a significant figure in in the world of YouTube as as a video essaist. He has inspired me to maybe want to dabble a little bit in that field. Um and FD is uh going to talk to us tonight a little bit about the black church clout and capital.
We're going to explore the relationship between the black church, black excellence, capitalism, how all of that plays into, you know, how we move throughout the world. FD, I'm curious and I know this wasn't on the script, but you know, we we're connected from like over a decade ago and last year when you when you hit me up like what was it about this platform that you was like, I think I could rock with them. So, I had been um shout out to my homie Lil you might also want to uh check out eventually. I don't know if you know Lil Bill. Lil actually I think is a ordained minister, >> but he's definitely a pew baby.
>> And he put me on Well, no, I had been on liberation theology. I had known about it a little bit. I had known of it for years, like going back to Clark. Um, and then um I watched he did a video on it uh years ago and I was going through a political awakening um uh like a really real educational awakening as I started gaining like more clout and getting bigger. I took it upon myself to say, I'm not just gonna be an influencer making videos about anime and hip-hop.
Um, I gotta like get into some real [ __ ] Um, and diving back into like, you know, the radical history of of black power movements and, you know, relearning about Martin Luther King and his work and that whole civil rights movement, it forced me to like re-evaluate the role of of black the black church and, you know, liberation for black people in this country. And so that had put liberation theology back on my radar. And then, um, you you must have had a viral moment. Um, and I I immediately recognized you.
>> Yeah.
>> I was like, "Oh, that's dude. I KNOW THIS DUDE."
>> YEAH.
>> You know, I know this dude. And then it was something. I don't know if it was some Jackie Hill Perry nonsense.
>> Oh, god.
>> One of these like MAGA church [ __ ] type dudes. It was you were breaking down something. And I was like, this is this is Oh, you know what it was specifically though? It was a combination of things.
you popped up, but also it was I was trying to connect with um uh Pastor um Jamal Bryant >> um at at the beginning of this Target boycott stuff >> because I I just felt like >> there's potential >> for like a more dynamic movement that isn't just based around buying power and, you know, black business u and black excellence. which sadly is what it ended up being for Jamal. And I just like if I could just be a fly in the room when they have these conversations, I could at least say I tried, right?
Yeah.
>> Because any person that can like I never forget he had he announced on a Sunday that they were going to have a meeting about it on Tuesday, >> right?
>> At the meeting is a whole bunch of people including Nina Turner. Um uh and it's like 500 people.
>> Oh wow. And I'm like, if you can get and and that was the thing that was really like justating with me is that the black church is the only instit it's it's probably the most powerful institution we have access to for black liberation.
>> And it's kind of just not it's just like a it's like a quest for a weapon. It's like the the quest for the ring. like we really need to go on a quest to reclaim it from the from Mordor or the Matrix or whatever else because once we do, we gonna have something serious. But that takes amplifying voices like yourself um and others who are like carrying on that tradition that came from MLK. And so when I when you when you popped up on my radar, I was like, "Oh, I definitely want to connect with Dude eventually."
But, you know, I was also in the middle of other things. cuz when we talked a couple of weeks I was like do I need to >> Yeah.
>> I was on a legendary run. I was like I need a break.
>> You know what I'm saying?
>> I hit you up I hit you up right after the Tyler Perry video and I was like >> Yeah. And I had been on a a press run basically for a month up until that point >> and I despite how much I yap um I uh I be need I'm an introvert >> and so I know when I'm tired of hearing my own voice and seeing my own face I need a break. Yeah, I feel you. I It's It's exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. I had a little little like podcast run toward the end of last year and it was brutal. Like cuz when you hit me up, we were we were like right on the cusp of Dayfest, which is our annual event in Atlanta. And ain't nothing happening then. And then September, I went on sbatical. So I I wasn't drinking anything then. And then when I came back, I hit the ground running. I was here, I was there, I was everywhere. And I was like, man, I ain't hit up FD yet.
We need to we need to like spin the block and really have this conversation.
Uh because there is so much overlap and synergy. And I think it's important that we we expose our community to the various voices that are doing the work of liberation, whether they are part of the church or not. because everybody doing liberation needs to be connected in some way because we all have our part. We all have our role.
>> Um, and I appreciate what you do. I I actually say this. I'm a podcaster who doesn't listen to podcast.
I struggle to find content that can hold me.
>> And then I found you and I be watching your stuff all the way through. I was like, I'm a fan.
That's a high compliment from him, honey.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
>> No, I'm for real. I am a fan. I watched all four hours of the Tyler Perry video.
All four hours. I've watched multiple videos of yours. A number of people in our community talk about how much they appreciate your work. And it's also great cuz we got to introduce some people to your work who hadn't heard of you before. So, when we told them that you were coming on, they went and started watching the videos. So yeah, really excited to have you here. And before we go any further, it is TFC live. It is Holy Smokes. We got to give you the one rule. Rich Auntie is in the building.
>> So Rich Auntie is going to give us the one rule for the day.
>> What up y'all? You know, we love the one rule over here. It's our northstar and the founding vision of our illustrious founding pastor, Bishop Tik Tok. So, the one rule is that we honor each other's lived experiences. We do not uplift theories over what people have actually lived in real life. Like, IRL, it's it's not just a cute little phrase. Um, healthy debates are very welcome. We love to talk. We love to pontificate. We love to argue a little bit online sometimes, but kindness is key. And for those of you who are familiar with some spiritual traditions, you know that does come from the Bible. Your love for God is displayed through how you love your neighbor. That's an extension of how you love yourself. Therefore, you cannot fully love God if you don't love your neighbor. And you definitely cannot fully love your neighbor if you don't love yourself. Um, for the biblicals, I mean the Bible people, Matthew 22:34 through 40 is where it can be found.
But, you know, I love to point out that this is something that comes from a lot of faith traditions. And it's actually something my grandmother who was not religious at all. She was like the OG spiritually fluid person. She used to tell that. So try us and you might get dragged in all the names online. We try to keep our um violence allegorical because we live in a wararmongering world. But you try the wrong person and you might catch some holy hands as well.
So tread lightly in Jesus name. Amen.
>> Listen, Richie don't be playing no games. Okay? But, you know, it it is what it is around here. You know, we don't debate people's humanity. We debate a lot, but we don't debate people's humanity around here. All right. We talking about black church clout and capital. This relationship between the black church, the idea of black excellence and capitalism and how those things are interwoven. And I don't think there's anybody uh better equipped to like join us for this conversation than FD. Uh and before we go deep before we go like real deep into this conversation, let's just start with some some softball stuff just to give people an opportunity to like know who FD is and like how he rolls. So just let's start here. FD uh your videos on YouTube video essays. Like I said, I'm a fan.
And I watch them and I watch the Bides too, right? The the the Bides channel the the videos are like 20 to 30 minutes, but like on your main channel they be like 90 minutes and like Tyler Perry was 4 hours. What do you What are your average viewers doing while they're watching these hours long videos? Like are they what are they paying no [ __ ] attention?
Um, so it's so so it's like these are parts of the parts of the game, right?
>> Um, >> yeah, >> longer videos are just better for the algorithm and channel's health if they're good. If it's a long video that people aren't engaged with and you not drawing people in, it hurts. So like, don't it's not something to do all willy-nilly. People will people will click off if it feels like you patting and you're not doing enough to keep them keep them locked in.
>> Yeah. Um, I think I have the benefit of having a voice that people like literally just the tone of my voice um, digs into people in a way that keeps them engaged or maybe like soothes them.
>> I'm not sure. So, I got a lot of people that tell me like they'll watch a video while they do whatever they got to do around the house. They'll watch a video like a podcast while they're while they're out and about, you know, on on a on a work commute. Um, and they'll they'll lock in when they when they feel like, "Oh, I missed something. I need to lock back in, etc." Um, and then a lot of people watch it like I intend to, which is like right in front of them, paying full attention, etc. >> Yeah.
>> Um, I also get a lot of people that will watch and they'll lock in the first time >> and people have interesting relationships with video essays. Um, it's almost like a some of them like a good book or uh I don't know but a comfort video like so they'll play it in the background almost as like and I do this like I I I will turn I have like 10 or so videos when I'm need to go to bed I'll play a video from H Bomber Guy or homie iPad Wolf or something a video I've watched a hundred times at this point but something about the cadence and the rhythm works in my circ circadian rhythms and all of a sudden I'm asleep, you know.
>> Um, but that's all secondary to do people [ __ ] with the video when they like are watching it for real? Are they engaging with it for real? Um, are they is does it does it strike them to like comment? All those things. Uh, you know, I got to put in the bells and whistles.
I might have to I hear here me. Here's, you know, the solid period video I'm filming at uh one of my frat brothers houses and we burning tables and you know what? Let's set that to ultra light beam but the church version just so I catch people immediately coming out the gate that I know I want to be locked in.
Um like so all that goes into it cuz like >> I'm competing with Tik Tok. I'm competing with work. I'm competing with children. I'm competing with Madden. You know what I mean?
>> So it's a lot. Y'all, uh, our YouTube game is going to get a lot better by being connected to FD. I'm telling you right now, y'all get ready. The YouTube game is about to get real cuz I just been out here, you know, throwing stuff at the wall to see what stick. Um, and FD is a is a a YouTube legend.
>> I didn't just pay attention to English.
I was an English teacher. That's where part of the that's where part of it comes from, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And um, you're you're right. Your voice does kind of like it is soothing and your cadence is easy to follow. You have a very very easy to follow cadence. It's like you just got kind of get lost.
>> Yeah.
>> Um because you're >> Which is why I think people can listen to me without hear me without listening or listen without hearing. One of those two.
>> Yeah.
>> Honestly, sometimes I'll be in the comments and I'll be like, I know I said this. Why are you asking me this question about the video? Let me just I'm not gonna trip. I'mma just time snap this and just put this comment here and curse somebody else out later.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, people don't listen for real. I mean, you you making you making 90 minute, two, three, four hour videos. Like people can watch a 90 second clip from me and ask, "Well, what about like I just said that you it was only 90 seconds."
>> Yeah. It's rough.
>> Yeah. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. All right. So, video essays. If you weren't doing that, what would you be doing professionally?
>> Um, I I'd have finished my PhD. It's funny. I was um I started making content during COVID um just because I had been telling myself I wanted to try making videos for years and just I made a promise to myself that once I once I finished >> um comps with my my my graduate comps or maybe I was finishing my thesis at the time I don't know something once I finished something because I I was going to finally do start doing essays um and um initially I was around for like a year with no motion just you know and that's another thing so much of it is luck right >> like here I am years later and I'm one of the most significant people in my in my like genre whatever but for a year the algorithm was like who is this [ __ ] this [ __ ] videos are trash like you know videos I made then hitting 700 800,000 views now but the algorithm didn't know what to do with it in 2020 you know was at 500 at period um So, uh, I was applying I was literally talking to people at Morehouse School of Medicine for some type of like, um, hybrid social work research leadership position that was going to pay me more than I ever made in my career. And, um, thought I was about to be like, you know, was getting ready to to to set up interviews and then something happened and people fell off and never came through. And then like two months later, I was still applying to stuff, doing interviews, and then I went viral. And I was like, "All right, >> that's it.
>> Y'all lost." You know what I'm saying?
You know, I went viral on a video I barely tried for. Made uh $20,000 in a month off that video.
>> Wait, hold a minute. Wait a minute.
Look, >> bring the increase, Lord.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I was blown. It It was so funny because it happened cuz like I was nothing for a year. I had, if you go look at my channel, I had my first video to get any views was this video on freaking uh Tyreek Nasheed's buck breaking documentary >> and it was only got views because his fans watched it and then like weird racist white boys were watching it and it was like going viral for all the wrong reasons. It was not a good experience, >> right? But it got 20,000 views in like two weeks, which was like for me that was insane because I was getting less than 700. That was like amazing for me was 700 views.
>> And then um and then uh what happened?
Um I got a shout out from Cadia and Bo.
Shout out to Cadia and Bo.
>> And and then I had like a post go viral on Facebook and that put me at 2,000 subs. No. And then then finally after that I made this Bo Burnham video. The Bo Burnham video starts doing pretty good and then I hit 2,000 subscribers and the B burner video hits like 50,000 views in like a week and I'm like oh snap. So I got 2,000 subscribers and I do like a little video like and it's like it's still there LIKE HEY 2,000 SUBSCRIBERS. LOOK at that.
>> Yeah. And a month later I had 100,000.
And that's because that Bo Burnham video hit a million in about a month. And the feedback it's like once once the algorithm catches like figure something out.
>> Yeah.
>> They say, "Okay, what what else can we try?" And so like other videos I had made started going viral at the same time. So really I had like three or four viral videos all at once. And so that was a and once I saw that check one, it it changed me politically because I was like there's no way I'm about to get a check this big and it's just gonna be for having fun on the internet. Like we got to do my my father, my uncles, they wouldn't approve. Um and then it was also like, all right, Morehouse School of Medicine, look y'all, they they they circle back like two months later. I never forget. And I was like, hey, sorry I've moved on, but but thank you. Good luck with that.
>> Wow. Wow.
that that kind of increase like 98,000 subscribers in a month.
I Yeah, I can't even like really fathom like our our growth like our our platform growth has been like pretty slow and steady.
>> So there hasn't been like one big boom.
It's just like okay every month we just adding a couple thousand here, few thousand here. So that that that is >> it's probably something that could only happen with video essays though >> or certain types of videos podcast it wouldn't be possible because of the nature of the content um because the video essay YouTube loves that video essays are there. We don't ever do you know Mr. Beast numbers but we are engagement like word. Yeah. Um, and so because the YouTube knows how people engage with video essays, they know exactly what to do once one goes off an algorithm.
>> Gotcha.
>> And and I was lucky enough I'm good at this. Like again, the teaching thing, >> the voice, like I didn't I didn't realize it at the time, but like I had so many features that made me like really good at being a video essayist.
And so I was making dope videos the whole time. The algorithm just didn't know what to do with me. Going back to what we said earlier, because they didn't understand what to do with a straight black man that wasn't a red pill dude or a conservative, you know.
>> Um, >> and once they figured that out, it was it was off to the races, you know.
>> Off to the races indeed. You had like what, 1.1 million followers?
>> Yeah. Close to 1.2. Then that's just on the main channel and it's a bunch of numbers on the other channels, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> That's amazing. Shout out to you.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Yeah, for real for holding it down. Like for reals. All right. So, I'm a FD Signifier fan. I'm also a fan of Killer Mike.
Okay. And I and and seeing >> I'm a fan of Killer Mike.
>> I know.
>> Music.
>> I don't know. I'm not listening. I've watched your takes on Killer Mike and And they're to me they're balanced. Like I I see I like Yeah, I see what he's saying. Right. And I I still like Killer Mike music. I share some of these same critiques, but you know, it is what it is. But then like to see like, oh dang, like Killer Mike really don't like this [ __ ] Yo, the wildest thing has been the sudden crossover into fake fame for real. and like getting messages and texts and emails from like celebrities that I watched and have influenced my work, you know, and so the surrealness of watching that I'm assuming you were referring to that podcast did with Charlemagne which to God where they're also talking about complaining essentially complaining about me to JAY-Z AND I'M LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?
>> That's crazy.
>> LIKE SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL INFLUENTIAL BLACK MEN IN MY IN my life are like man [ __ ] this dude though. I'm like, "Dang, little me." Um, but yeah, it's it's surreal to kind of like suddenly, you know, Lupe didn't appreciate the video I did about him.
>> Um, you know, it's certain people that I was cool with that ain't ain't responded to messages in a while.
>> Yikes.
>> And you know, it's but it, you know, and so this is the walk that you're also in.
There is a cost to edging toward that radical >> space because you know we'll get to this when we get deeper into the church stuff. there's to from my perspective, one of the reasons why I was attracted to some of your your work and one of the reasons why I had to speak on Killer Mike in a way that was critical is that once you sit back and you start analyzing things and you start looking at parts of our political history that have been purposefully removed from the docket, you recognize the role so many of our icons, some of our favorite artists play in keeping us in a in fixed position.
>> Yeah.
>> And once you start getting radical, you start agitating, you know, breaking that that position and folks might come for you. So like, you know, there was a trajectory. My wife is still kind of lamenting that there was like a moment, especially after the Kendrick Drake video, that I could have been part of the club and I and I I fumbled the bag by being too righteous. And here we are, you know, still doing well, but I got my integrity intact.
>> Yeah. The bag might have been bigger if I'd have been a little less a little more minimal to to cause, you know.
>> Yeah. And now you like making four videos about Tyler Perry. You're done.
>> Done. I got to leave the city.
>> I got to leave the city.
>> You're done.
>> Have you heard from Tyler Perry?
>> I haven't. So to to to Tyler Perry's credit, I've gotten that video had so many attacks. So many the most frivolous stuff I've ever seen. And part of me wonders if it was him calling in favors, >> but nothing directly attached to him has been a problem on that video. I haven't heard from anybody. I haven't had no awkward encounters in public. I do share spaces with some people that share space with him. Um, but you know, I I thankfully he is, you know, treating me like a little little just a little guy and I I am very grateful for that. I have no my ego is not so big that I want to be um you know directly in conflict with a billionaire media mogul. I would rather not. Um so yeah it's it's so the video did its thing. He got a girlfriend. Now I'm not going to act like I'm not going to say I may have something has something to do with that.
But you know hey I'm on to the next topic at this point. Oh, I look I said this was going to come up at some point in this conversation. This is this is the energy you own.
>> Stop playing with you [ __ ] >> Hey, real quick and we'll get back to it. My new ebook, Question Your Answers, a deconstruction survival guide, is available now. If you've been doing this journey, questioning your faith, rethinking what you were taught, trying to figure out what you actually believe, this book was written for you. It's your survival guide for the road ahead. The ebook also comes with the Ask Christian AI reading companion. So, you know, you can process the book with a little help from me on demand. It's like having me in your pocket. The link is in the caption or you can scan the QR code on the screen. All right, let's get back into the show.
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, people appreciate it and I think people have to take notice of what you're doing. like you are an independent creator who's putting out like real thoughtful um complex critiques that are getting millions of views like there are like major platforms like you know just today I was on YouTube and I saw the interview with Spike Lee and Ryan Cooer like two icons sitting having a conversation together and that that video didn't do nearly as much as like your last three videos. So, it's like that's very significant and people have to take notice of that.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> So, yeah. And I appreciate it because I'm so glad to see that kind of content get that kind of reach cuz you just like normally wouldn't expect it. What what >> what's one thing your audience gets right about your work and what's what's one thing they get wrong about it that you just want them to stop doing?
>> The thing they get right is my dedication to like balance and nuance.
>> Yeah.
>> I so love when I see that >> reflected. Um, one of my favorite creators, CJ the X, calls it signal words, which is like as a creator who's able to engage with your audience and critics, you want to see certain responses that speaks to like, is my art being received in the way I imagined it?
And so for me, um, I really want like I'm always getting messages and DMs of people wanting me to drag X person.
>> Oh god.
>> Issue, right?
>> Every day.
>> Yeah. It's a weird, you know, it's just a thing without denigrating fans uh in the moment. It's a thing.
>> Like you're an attack dog.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I get it. I get it. You know, it's it's a it's a thing. And so rarely do I do that. I did do that Jack Carlo video earlier this week, but but that's a rare occasion, right? And people asking for that for years and it was like look actually right about now >> might have to indulge a little bit.
>> Yeah.
>> But for the most part, >> people come to me >> to hear my analysis that doesn't seek to just drag and browbeat a figure. Yeah.
And the thing that I really appreciated the most about specifically the Tyler Perry response is that people were almost conflicted by how gracious and understanding and like how much how engaged I w I how much engagement I had with his story and trying to humanize him and make sense of my make sense of his flaws within the work.
>> Yeah. Um, and so like I love that because I, you know, the thing I've come to realize being successful in in content creation is that this is at its core, especially with the people who run it. All of these things are tools for distortion and chaos.
And they reward that at their core. They reward conflict. They reward chaos. They reward mess. And let's be real, I enjoy a little bit of that.
Who don't? Some people don't. It's not me.
>> But if you're if my goal is >> political education, you know, development of people, you know, whatever, then I can't just do that red meat of cooking people uh in a video because I'm not challenging the viewer or myself.
>> Yeah. You know, and so I want the viewer to come away thinking, "Dang, I never thought about it like that." You know, >> even if I did like the Drake, Kendrick Drake video, like I I drug all through the video, but I always combine that with like recognition of how Drake becomes what he becomes, empathizing with his experience. Um, you know, the thing that video I think people don't catch the fact that like Drake low-key is a victim of so many different um exploitative systems that put him in a position to get took out by Kendrick the way he did, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um, >> I appreciated your take on uh Obama when the the the black excellence piece you did.
>> Yeah.
>> That was so well done. like >> you you held like valid critiques and you also held up like the symbolism of Obama and how important that is and how we got to hold those two in tension if we want to be honest in our assessment of his legacy.
So I I greatly appreciated that one because that's that's a real difficult topic with black people >> now. Yeah.
>> Excuse me. What do people get wrong?
Uh, so many things.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is the space between people to my left and people to my right.
>> Oh god. Critics to my left that say I'm too moderate. I'm a liberal. Um, a rad lib. Um, part of the the insurgency, etc., etc. And then I got people to my right that say, "I'm too radical. I I help Donald Trump win.
>> What?
>> I hate black people and I I love white leftists too much, etc." And and both of them are operating in these bad faith assessments.
And I get frustrated with people to my left being completely, in my opinion, inconsiderate and illogical about the masses of people that are still over here and what I would what I sometimes see as an unwillingness to meet people where they are.
>> Yeah.
>> People I But then I engage on to my right and I hear how stubborn and delusional people are.
>> Yeah. And I'm like, I understand why people don't want to deal with y'all.
I'll just go start a farm and some get some land, take care of my own.
>> Yeah. Um, and so like to have so that tells me sometimes I'm doing something right and that I'm being uh critiqued for what my genuine position is. But I just wish folks would be more um gracious in good faith about what they're actually upset about with me.
>> Yeah. which is me daring to defy the uh the the hegemonic attitude towards moderates and liberals as a leftist and me daring to challenge and be among liberals and moderates while explaining why they're wrong about pretty much everything, you know.
>> So, um, welcome to the podcast. This is this is Yeah, right there. It's on the screen here. Here it comes.
Hegemonic. You got the dollar jar for hegemonic. So you have to explain to the people what hegemonic means.
>> Hegemonic is the overriding attitudinal and cultural like disposition of a thing in this in this situation of like how black people view politics. So the so the hegemonic black body politic is we're Democrats.
We we support DEI and and and anti-racism and um you know we g we gonna vote and business our way to liberation and anybody that's and anybody that's telling you that that ain't the that ain't the way to do it, something wrong with them. Don't trust him. Don't listen to anything he say. He just want Trump to win, etc. We gonna vote and business our way to liberation, >> right?
>> Oh, that's good.
>> And that's the that's the thing with folks is that and that's what's been given to us like our generation. I figure you around my age, right? You in your early 40s, late 30s.
>> Yeah. Early 40s.
>> Yeah. So like if you think about our upbringing >> uh post the war in court era, right? So affirmative actions been in full effect now. Um, our parents, well, my parents at least, you know, not to put this on everybody, but a lot of people's parents were some of those first black educated folks to come out and actually have access to the workplace for real as a black person to to have access to opportunity to live the American dream, right? So in their minds, even though so much of the civil rights movement was on some really revolutionary radical change type stuff, >> I can understand why my mom and dad was like, "Oh, we did it. We made it. I got a good job. I got my degrees. I'm getting this money now. I can move out the hood. I can move I can move out the suburbs and find a a black community of mostly folks like myself."
like why wouldn't I then preach this gospel, instill it into my children?
>> Yeah.
>> And that is the black excellence. So, we learn about the talented tent. I know I know y'all know that one. That was that was all up in the in in the books everywhere.
>> And what happens though is that there there's there's so much there's a lot of bait and switch a lot of you know the the the OG hip-hop heads would say a lot of technology, >> right?
And what you don't realize is just how that was kind of like, you know, that was like a lobster ripping off its own arm >> to keep the whole of the body secure or like a lizard where you catch its tail, but it'll break that tail off, >> you know, and it'll go on as business as usual. That was kind of a lot of the the the Black Excellence stuff. um a lot of the you know that uh ideology that we were instilled with. And so now here we are you know 30 40 years later a generation deep into that black excellence mythology and the other part of the game has developed. And so we have 300,000 college educated black women losing their jobs >> in the you know in the last 365 days.
and you know so many other aspects of our modern and and those jobs themselves weren't the same good quality secure jobs that my parents had you know some of those was gig econ economy jobs you know or contract work because we don't want to pay for health care you know like all these other things like were baked into that that uh that concession from the state that concession from the powers that had a whole lot of uh poison pills in it.
>> Yeah.
>> And the problem from my perspective is that as we're discovering and recognizing this as King did >> in ' 68, >> King recognized the setup before they and that's why they killed him because he rec he he did the I have a dream speech in ' 66 and people act like he died the day after, but no, I'm sorry, maybe 65. Um, and people act like he died the day after, but no, within a year he was like, "Wait, >> y'all, I see what y'all are doing. We coming back."
>> YEAH.
>> WE COMING BACK TO WASHINGTON. WE GOT WE GOT MORE. WE GOT WE GOT SOMETHING ELSE TO talk about and they killed him.
>> Yeah.
>> And and then they then they uh mutilated his legacy to take all that part of the information out. And that's what we've been left with. And so, but the problem is we do have a class of black folks like some of my critics who are in position greatly for the purpose of maintaining the system as it is because at least for them they're at the top of the food chain.
>> Exactly.
>> And they also are the most influential figures within the hegemonic, you know, black body politic. You know what I'm saying? I'm I'm feeling myself with the words today.
I don't even do this all the time, but you get my point.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and so that's kind of we got to have we gonna have to have some fights. I'mma love your album, but hate your politics and I'mma talk about it.
>> It's the it's the same thing in the church structure, you know? Like that's that's been my journey within the black church. Like once I got deplatformed for my evolving theological views, I dared to say them out loud much like Bishop Carlton Pearson did 20 years before me.
I dared to say out loud like like nah, some of this stuff ain't making sense, y'all. We should really rethink this.
And then like all of my invitations got stripped away. All of my opportunities got stripped away. And I realized, oh, like young preachers coming up are really looking to be platformed by the system. And if you're going to be platformed by the system, you have to regurgitate what they want you to say.
And they will re reward you if you regurgitate with great creativity and charisma.
>> But if you dare to reimagine, you're out of here.
>> Yes. Mhm.
>> So that's how like that's how this platform even came to be. It was like, "Oh, y'all not messing with me? All right, then.
>> Got to go do my own thing.
>> I'll just Yeah.
>> And but so Cton Pearson is the one for lack of better word. He got excommunicated, right?"
>> Yeah.
>> That's the subject of my when I do this church video, we gonna talk >> because that's so deep to me. I never knew that. My wife is a pew baby. My wife is a is a a grand PK. Grand P.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> What up? Um, and >> preacher's grandkid.
>> Yeah. Preacher's grandkid. Cuz I don't know if that them letters add up the WAY THEY SUPPOSED.
>> I KNEW WHAT you mean. But heic though.
Hegemonically. Um, >> and so >> hegemonically, >> right? Uh, when she told me that story, I was like, "Baby, this is profound. Why don't I know this? Yeah, >> this is such a powerful profound like story of like black church culture and liberation and like why because you know because I'm I'm so I'm agnostic. I grew up Muslim. I left Islam probably my early 20s.
>> Um I went through a bit of a edgy atheist phase that I regret. Well, you know, we all have regrets. Uh >> and then my wife was uh is still Christian and grew up again in the church, Pew Baby. And so we still go to church, you know, every blue moon. Um we were uh really enjoying um Impact over on the south south I guess that's the southwest side before co and then Ol left.
>> Olu Brown. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Olu left and it kind of wasn't the same for us. Um but like I was I would be in Impact being like yeah this is you know yeah the kids is liking this is great. But then like we were on a kind of a church tour before we found Impact and we would go in these churches and it just be old people and it feel dead.
>> Yeah.
>> And I'd be like this is you know there's something like it's not dark like I don't like saying like dark energy vibes like whatever cuz again I'm not that type of wasn't dark in terms of like a spiritual thing. It was dark like the the sad part of a movie.
>> Yeah.
>> You know what I'm saying? It's dark like you know the movie's going on and suddenly the mentor character starts coughing in the background.
>> You know what I mean? Like it's Rocky and Rocky's coach start coughing. YOU LIKE, "OH NO, NOT NOT CRUSTY." You know, like that's how it felt when we was going to some of these older churches.
>> You're w you were witnessing the church in decline.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's not, you know, even as a as a non Christian, like I was jealous of c church culture growing up.
>> You know what I'm saying? I was jealous of, you know, when I got to Clark and really got to see like the Southern Baptist tradition all around me and all these young, beautiful black people and how they were engaging and shared this experience through the church. I was like, that looks really fun, >> you know? And then to find out that it's kind of gone uh by the time I'm old enough to want to put my kids in the church community, that's that's kind of sad. But bringing it back full circle, there's historical precedent for that, too. And how I don't I don't know this one. Yeah. I haven't done this research yet, but I I know Nixon has something to do with it. I know Hoover has something to do with it. There's no way they fully understood that they had to destroy every vestage of liberation um access to liberation that black people had. And so it it can't be an accident that after King dies um we see the rise in prosperity preaching and hustler preachers and etc etc you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Oh, I can't I can't wait until you get into this um black church video essay cuz Oh, yeah. And and and the thing the thing about about Bishop Carlton Pearson is as you do the research, you know, you'll see like >> he was black church, but he was platformed by white people, >> right? So, he went to Oral Roberts University. Oral Roberts is a OG televangelist >> and that that was kind of the space where he was like embraced and platformed. He was like, "Oh, look at this. We got this charismatic, brilliant young black man who's on fire for Jesus."
>> They thought they had one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We'll put him out to to push our narrative. And then when he came back around with the gospel of inclusion, they gutted his ministry and his associate pastor, a white guy, left and started another church with Bishop Pearson's members.
>> And then that church would later become Transformation Church that is pastored by Mike Todd.
>> Connect the dots, sir.
I can't [ __ ] away.
>> YO, THIS IS GAME OF THRONES. LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? MIKE TODD uh stole his legacy.
>> Mike Todd pastors the house that Bishop Carlton Pearson built.
>> That's wild.
>> That is the house that Bishop Carlton Pearson built.
>> I'm about to eat off this. I hope the algorithm shows love cuz that's I'm about to I'm about to put my whole foot in this story. It's gonna show love because the black church is gonna show up and go off in your comments. Okay.
>> One thing that came up for me when you were speaking, you know, shout out to you. I'm currently dissertating in at the end and I can hear the academy and everything you're saying. So, I love this for me. But the con the conversation on hedgeimony, it's like the black church is so full of this exact same conflict. We like when you were saying we have um conversations in our community online and there's always this like oh the black church kids have their own language and we really do and while we have trauma around that stuff like when I think of the way that like I grew up Baptist we always have politicians in the the con the conversation you're having about blue and that's it blue or bus everything that I believed spiritually was also and politically and even down to my identity was learned in church. You know, the Black History Month um speeches, the the oral speaking skills. I'm an educator and my children cannot string together a sentence. Former English teacher and I'm like, "Oh, this is the rap game." Like, you you're not having spelling bees.
You're not doing Bible drill. You're not having these um pageantss where you have your mama said, "You better know your speech on Easter or you going to get in trouble." So, I just love what's mixing.
I can't wait to um see what you going to do either. I apologize. I'm not fully um I'm not fully aware. I'm aware of your work because I be on the internet, but I'm with me being in the dissertation, I don't get to do fun like I'm just reading [ __ ] about the discipline gap, but I I can't wait to dive in.
>> I got I got videos for you. I got two videos on the police. Um and and another one on black boys. Come through. It's lit. Trust me, we in we in similar areas. Uh R&B music. I think I think the death of R&B and and and the and the decline of the church are intrinsically connected >> because the church used to be a conservatory for our youth.
>> Yes.
>> You know, you think about how many uh singers came out the church. People that learn like my my son is learning the piano and he really likes it and I and like I think to myself, if we was at a church, I wouldn't have to pay for no lessons, >> right?
>> Yeah. you know, and he get and he get he wouldn't get the the you know, you know, metronome, whatever. He'd be up in there, you know, tickling the keys because that's that's, you know, that's us. And and that's kind of the the frustrating but also almost exciting thing. And I say this as a as a non a non-believer, but damn, I believe in the concept. I believe in the the proof of concept that is black church, black ch church church culture at its best, right? And that's not radical by me.
That's that'swamiame the father of of black radical thought in America. Uh had the same attitude because he saw he he so you know King read marks and King took issue with Marxist views on religion. Mhm.
>> And Té would come afterward and say part of the problem uh there is that King didn't have enough time to engage with other Marxist scholars about why Markx was just wrong about religion at least as it pertains to black people because his experience with religion was based on the European manifestation of Christianity which from almost its very inception was a tool of colonization, genocide, etc. >> Yeah. And so, uh, toé or someone said outright, you would ne you will never have a a revolution among, uh, black people or African people without a spiritual element um, uh, attached to it. it just would not happen cuz cuz our spiritual walk regardless of what that walk is is built different than what um they have they've allowed to become their I want to say what how I want to say that because I I like to give grace to white people and criticize whiteness, >> right?
>> Yeah.
>> Because I I feel like we get lazy in our analysis of white people um in a way that does more harm than good. Uh but like I believe that people of that ethnic and genetic lineage lost something by allowing whiteness to become their god.
>> Yes.
>> Right.
>> And so we know better and we can never be included in that if we wanted to. You know what I'm saying? We can only be the the puppets of that of that product. Um and so uh we can we'll never have a liberation a true liberation movement among African people worldwide that has no spiritual connection to it. And that's not me. That's terra, you know.
Yeah. And so I I look at when, you know, the the handful of time I had at impact with my boys doing like Bible was it vacation Bible school.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I was so jealous but happy.
>> And then co hit and it was over, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> But a shout out to um what's the senator's name? Waro.
>> Warno.
>> Warnog doing okay at uh what's it called? And grandma's here. So they getting a little bit of it.
>> Ebenezer.
>> Yeah. Elo Ebenezer. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. I mean I I we just released a a episode with Dr. Otis Monster the third um today on our platform and I I'd recommend that you know if you want to talk to some people in the radical black liberation tradition from the black church. Otis Moss the third is somebody I would consider speaking with. He's a he's a history buff.
>> So like he be he be he be spitting he be he be dropping that that history. And um he he you know he he talks a lot about like you know white people whiteness and how like there's always been a black liberation tradition within the black church but it hasn't been mainstream.
>> So you got to actually dig to find it.
And much like much like you in my space, I'm I'm surrounded by people on both sides of me who feel like I'm not enough of anything, >> right? I'm I'm too critical of the the conservative black church. But then on the other side of me, anytime I say anything about politics, the complaint is, "Oh, so you just want us to be Democrats?" And I'm like, "I didn't I didn't say that. I didn't I didn't even imply that.
Like I didn't bring up Democrats. I didn't bring up Kla Har. I didn't bring up Obama. I didn't bring up anything in this conversation. I'm making a political critique about where we are right now as I did when the Democrats were in office.
But it's like, oh no, you got to get out of the binary of >> that. That's folks.
My my my favorite one is it ain't that deep. Oh god.
>> Uh, and it's followed closely by, "So, what's your solution?"
>> Um, >> and those are all um evidence of people who know you're right, but they don't like it.
>> I'm saying people that know you're correct in what you're saying, but they don't like how that makes them feel.
>> Yeah. So they're they're just kind of throwing out, you know, useful uh slogans that can kind of put you back on even even playing field and kind of help them cope with that conf that internal conflict.
>> Yeah. That cognitive dissonance.
>> Yeah. I think and I think that's what a a lot of us need to start is to just re reconnect with the fact that cognitive dissonance is a natural place to be in as a as a person experiencing the world especially the world as it is. Um but we're kind of like I don't know what part of the American psyche or capitalism whatever makes it so we have to feel like we know exactly what we think and who we are at all times.
Anything that deflects against that needs to be destroyed >> and and and here we are, you know.
>> Yeah. We need the space to change our mind. We need the space, the permission, the freedom to say, "Hey, I used to believe this and now that I have been confronted with more information that contradicts what I once believed, I don't believe that anymore. And I may not even know what my new belief is.
>> You be flip-flopping.
>> Yeah.
Like I may not know what my new belief is, but I know I don't believe that anymore. And you know, just recently um I shared this clip of Kev on stage where he he referenced me in a conversation with uh Van Lean on Higher Learning podcast when Van asked him about his perspective on um same gender loving people. like what do you think about what the Bible says about them? And and Kev was like, you know, I'm I'm wrestling with that. And he said, you know, this guy named Christian Smith, he's kind of helped me to think about this in different ways. And he was just being honest like I'm wrestling. I was taught it this way. Now I'm not sure that that's what that means. Here's where I land in the moment. I don't want anybody to feel less than in my presence, and I'm going just stick right there for now while I try to figure it out. And there were all these people in the comments like, "Well, you could have just said you don't know. You compromise." See, that's what happened.
That's what happened when you get out there in Hollywood. They got to him. He sold out the church. Like, cuz he trying to be more compassionate and loving and he has more information. And you know, it's like again, once you see it and you allow yourself to internalize it, like you can't unsee it.
>> You you can't unsee it.
>> But People hate that folks want them blinders so bad. Pedagogy of the cave.
Y'all familiar with pedagogy of the cave?
>> I am.
>> Uh, Rich Auntie, I feel like you nodded your head. If you in education, I'm sure you came across that at least once.
>> Hold on. You uh, we can't hear you. Rich auntie, is your microphone muted?
>> Oh, I said a little bit.
>> It's Yeah, it's Play-Doh. I ain't about to go through the whole thing.
That's >> don't remember ton of it.
>> The bottom line is though, the people that come out the cave come into like the light, wokeness, whatever, you know.
Um, but the thing that always stuck with me is that when they try to bring that that light back to the cave, the people still in the cave [ __ ] around and murder them.
They might [ __ ] around and murder them because they refuse to to engage with the capacity that there could be more than what they've >> been experiencing this whole time.
>> Yeah.
>> And they're chained. They're chained.
>> Right.
>> And they they say that the person went up up into the light and lost their ability to see, you know, when in actuality they now see clearly. And they're trying to explain this to the people stuck in the cave, but they would rather the security of feeling like they know the thing than to be than to challenge themselves with then breaking with breaking their chains, you know.
>> Oh, that sound like a sermon. It's in there.
Go ahead. It's only about It's only about your hundred words long.
No.
>> Yeah. You know, it's like it's like the plantation. There were there were some slaves who just felt safer on the plantation. Like I hear what you saying about freedom out there, but it's too much uncertainty. And we talk about that a lot here, how we were indoctrinated into a theology of certainty where anything that feels uncertain feels unsafe. Therefore, we reject it. And if you try to push uncertainty on us in any way, then we're going to reject you and we're going to put you out. And like in the case of, you know, uh people who were seeking freedom, those who were committed to the plantation would actually try to undermine the the liberation uh practices of folk trying to get off the plantation. So >> yeah, we see it play out >> time and time and time again. And that's, you know, that's kind of where we are right now. Um, which brings us to this conversation about black excellence. I don't know how much more time we have with you, but like we just going >> I just got a good knot out right there.
So, we we good. Let's let's keep going.
Let's keep going. You once you see me start doing like the Harlem Shake a little bit.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, we we we getting close to it, but I just got a good a good They call it a cavitation when you got that pop in your back or the knuckles.
>> Yeah.
>> Defined it. No, that way.
>> Yeah, I had to learn that too because I've been going to physical therapy so much for all these different pains.
>> This is a part of getting older.
>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh >> the the black excellence thing is interesting. I I was just talking to my wife this morning about the gender wars.
>> And how there's a connection. We're talking about black women specifically here, but it's obviously not just them.
But there's a connection between like the gender wars and the church and black excellence and like the church being still to this day the most, like we said earlier, the most significant cultural force among black people >> um >> for good and for ill. And one of the ills there is that the church um sets the tone for what is desirable for black people.
>> Yeah.
>> What you should be aspiring to um how you should you know comport yourself and and behave in public and you know what a good black person looks like, who's respectable and who's not.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. You know Atlanta Hawks do all kinds of stuff with gambling you know all year long and like Yeah. fine. You know, white people do it respectable.
Magic City want to do a night just to get some wings. Oh, how dare they, >> you know, clutch his pearls. Um, >> yeah.
>> And so, >> uh, the church is the driving force for that in a lot of ways.
>> And it's tough to attack this concept of black excellence right now with little weapons. You know what I'm saying? with just my channel, just your channel, just a handful of channels. Now, it's growing, right? Like when I started and I was a nobody and I had to get a couple of shout outs to get the motion. And then even my first, you know, my earliest videos were kind of like in a more just general leftist politic >> um or a left-leaning even politic that I I wasn't even really getting into a black radical politic until like a year or two in.
>> Okay. Um, and you know, I saw the the blowback from some of that.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, people didn't like that I put, you know, Bill Cosby and Farrakhan on the same MJZ on the same video cover.
>> Yes.
>> They was like, what these two these three dudes shouldn't have nowhere near each other. I'm like, ah, >> if you take a particular framework of analysis, you see it's a two-hour video.
Go ahead, watch it. Yeah. you know. Um, >> but like and so like that was early, right? That was like years ago. And within that time, you see you see your emergence and you you know, you've had some pretty significant like don't don't poo poo yourself, you know, too much in that growing the plat a platform as big as you have as quickly as you have speaks to something a there there right.
>> Same thing for Deontay. Deonte.
>> Same thing for a Van Lean who was I've talked to Van and and that he's kind of going through a struggle where he's he's discovering his radical self and starting to push the envelope a little bit more than is comfortable for comfortable com comfortable for him having already found a spot in the machine. They they might push him out if you go too far. You know what I'm saying? Um, >> so like all of a sudden we putting some points up. You know, it don't look good that Charlemagne is doing a podcast with a MAC guy, right? Black people as a whole look at that and it internal conflict starts happening. M.
>> So, we're gaining momentum, but we're still fighting a large machine >> to try to liberate us from this idea that >> what we really want is black faces in high places. We want, >> you know, white >> uh we want white accolades and aesthetic just for black people.
>> Yeah.
>> And don't get me wrong, it feels good. I love a We live in Atlanta. I might brunch this weekend at the most hookah bougie negro brunch spot I can find.
>> What a grass wall.
>> With a grass wall. And I don't even do hookah. I just want some some lemon pepper lamb chops. You know what I'm saying? Like only getting in Atlanta.
>> Only in Atlanta. Fruity Pebbles.
Go get them lemon pepper lamb chops AND BE LIKE THANK YOU.
>> SO, so I get it. I get it. But you know, I've also started that decolonization process and you don't have to get rid of like, you know, the one thing I hate is that people think that being a leftist or a socialist is a vow of poverty and that you can't have nice things and that, you know, nobody can make money under the system, etc., etc. And no, it's just you can't be a billionaire. We will get you off the map for being a billionaire, but don't nobody need billionaire.
>> Come on, somebody.
>> Don't nobody need that much money. only get you will only get money like that by exploiting people. Shout out to Jay-Z.
Talk about he ain't hurt nobody coming up. Jay, you would >> I Are you going to do something on that?
Are you going to talk about >> So I do. So my plan for the year is not My plan for the year is um I got I'mma probably do a Ad AOS video, a Ad AOS FBA video um to come out in May if I can get it lined up. Then I got to take a break because I've been doing too much serious stuff for too long. I need something just for me. So, I'm gonna do this uh battle rap video summer >> and then depending on other factors and money because like you know this still a job and if a video don't you know the Tyler Perry video is feeding feeding me real good right now so I can wait till May right.
>> Yeah. But if that video don't feed, then we might have a June video, you know.
But ideally, what I want to do is what I'mma call a black misleadership video.
And there's a shout out to Glenn Floyd.
That's not my con term, but that's a concept that I've been I just want to come back to it, but is it is including the Jay-Z's, the Charlemagne's, the Opas, the Killer Mics. Um, >> you know, the Tyler Perry was kind of a the end part to the Tyler Perry video was kind of starting that arc, >> so to speak.
>> And so I would want to do that like in the fall and then do the black church video for uh Christmas right on time.
>> Um, >> and that's the goal, but there might be like four other videos in the middle of that because something happened or I need to check, >> right? You know, >> because things will happen and expenses will come up and you gonna have to do what you >> Nobody knew Charlie Kirk was gonna get shot in the neck. I didn't even know who Charlie Kirk was halfway before he got shot.
>> Wow. Yeah.
>> And then then s and then I didn't even say nothing for like months and then suddenly a light bulb went off and I was like, "Oh, boom." And and that helped that helped the Tyler Perry video get a couple of months extra time to to cook because I I had, you know, it's financially okay to wait a little longer. So, when you do get into that that research about black church stuff, I want to recommend um if you haven't watched the Bad Faith documentary, >> uh I want to invite you to watch that. I think you'll get a lot from that. Um and it talks about the theology around Christian nationalism and the connecting points. you'll see some of the connections between that and what is happening with this like black church takeover which just goes back to like you know the whole prosperity gospel and how that has morphed into what we see now with ministries like 2819 with uh you know people like Jackie Hill Perry and and um Tiffany Montgomery people like this who have these major platforms who are just spewing straight poison to for our people.
>> Um, and one of my big critiques of fundamentalist black church theology is that it is so individualistic where when you actually look at the the ministry and the message of Jesus.
>> Oh, sorry. Pause one second. I hear kids that should be in the bed.
>> Yes. Fatherhood.
>> Yes.
like it is past your bedtime. Y'all need to lay it down. This is the thing though.
>> Can I say one thing while he does that?
>> Yeah. Yeah, please do. Um, I just wanted, you know, I love a good such eye. So, I've been over here stirring a little bit about the entire beautiful conversation, but um, in thinking about black excellence as a colonized construct, I was just running through my own like journey from being super evangelical, super fundamentalist to now free, which is where liberation lies for me. But the key aspects of um colonized construct when I looked it up, okay, just real quick, assimilation over li liberation, perfectionism and pressure, divide and conquer, and euroentric validation, right? And so the definitions of black success are completely shaped by white supremacy or whiteness, capitalism, and those euroentric standards of respectability.
This had to be something that I confronted in myself as an educator because as I'm studying disproportionality and I'm looking at black kids being suspended and I'm looking at the two categories which are most often suspended for disrespect and subordination.
A child talking back to you is disrespect to the point of getting them suspended and losing their education.
But a child talking back to me because I'm building community and not carcerality. That's them finding their voice. That's them using their curiosity in the classroom. So this conversation is so key because it's not just the church. It's if you're in anything where you're indoctrinated, which if you're an American citizen, baby, you're being indoctrinated every day. The propaganda of the system that I work in is intentionally there's this term by Dr. Betatina Love called spirit murder. And it she talks about how the the ch the children who are not a part of this construct of whiteness, every day they walk into a school and their spirit is murdered. So, we can't be surprised by the outcomes in black and bipo communities when you have indoctrinated them into ways that are dehumanizing and full of death.
>> Yeah.
>> What was you about to say? MD lost in the spirit there for a second.
Um, that's that's so true. that's so true about our kids as a former educator. Um, being an educator and then eventually a social worker is probably like well not it's it's not the beginnings like there's so many things that allowed me to be amenable to the politics I have today. It was just kind of a a cuitous journey where I had to pick up different things on the way there. But one of the things the first time it hit me that this system is unequivocally broken and will never work for us as a people was in the schools and like being forced to to administer spirit murder, being forced to be um an accessory to that for for our children and knowing full well this is not good for anyone involved, but that I have to do it because the standard s or the the rubric etc requires it.
>> Yeah.
>> And the wild thing is >> that liberated children we target sometimes the most.
>> Yes.
>> Because of that.
>> And we see, you know, uh, you know, I go back to like Steve Harvey getting all them boys haircuts. You all remember that video years ago?
>> I think I may have seen a clip of it in one of your videos.
>> Yeah. It's old now, but like I just never forget seeing that. It's like you can't be a real man if you don't cut your hair like this. And I'm like, Steve, >> [ __ ] you wore a wig half of your career, >> right? What are you talking about? Um, and you know, and and with little black boys, little black girls, the the god forbid the the queer black children that have to navigate a space that is so overtly hostile to them. Um, ha, having to witness that firsthand within these institutions was one of the first things that made me be like, you know, maybe all this should be destroyed. Maybe he's got a point.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, and I'm not an anarchist, but I get it.
>> Yeah, I get it.
>> I'm a slight anarchist, so burn it down.
>> Everybody should be at least slight.
Let's be Let's be clear.
>> Everybody should be a little bit anarchist at a minimum. Um >> yeah, >> because you know Yeah.
>> So I I'm gonna I'm gonna do this because um Richie said carcerality and um FD said.
Um so both of y'all.
Um and then and then I I want to just like do two more things for because I I see I see you streaking. I see it.
Right.
>> My bad. Yeah.
>> No, no, no. ain't your back. Listen, we getting old, brother. You know what I'm saying?
>> I didn't even know that. I didn't know I was doing it, but I had to get it. I had to get it in.
>> I totally understand. I totally understand.
>> Mine are easy. Mine is security just means like circular.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Cir to [ __ ] >> Sit down.
>> You just you just dropped it so casually. It was like, did he just say that? Yeah. Um so like yeah the the problem that I see when we talk about um like black excellence, black capitalism and the role the church plays in that is that the theology is so individualistic where liberation is actually a collective activity. Mhm.
>> So it doesn't help the collective like you said if we just got black faces in high places which I first heard that from uh Dr. Ruha Benjamin um where she said it at a I think it was a commencement at Spellman that like black faces in high places will not save us.
And in the Tyler Perry video you use this brilliant table metaphor. I love the way you piece this together to show how individual black success gets packaged as collective uplift.
>> Mhm.
>> So, how do we tell the difference between someone building a table for the community versus building a desk where they eat alone?
>> You you check their resume.
you you you don't be don't be um don't be sucked in to the celebratory accolades. Don't be sucked in to the fact that they got to stand next to some white people and hold some some some metal. Um no shade to, you know, Cougler and them who I love. Although like the jury like they got they got they still got to show and prove. I've seen it. I think it's happening but you know I'm I'm I'mma be a fan and a critic at all times. Mhm.
>> Um, but you know, we see those accolades and we get emotional because it the it's such a effective weapon because you know, antilackness is so deeply ingrained into the world and thus into us. And so just the image of a black person being celebrated is usually enough to make us turn off our cognitive faculties of critique and analysis as to what's really happening.
>> Yeah. And so once we get past that moment, we then have to have the wherewithal to say, "Let me check your resume." And with the Tyler Perry video was, it was so funny because I'm an OG Tyler Perry hater, you know? Uh I'm OG Tyler Perry hater. The funny >> me too. Me too.
>> Right. The funny part is like I stopped making that a part of my like, you know, public persona. I stopped bringing it up after the Boondocks episode because the the arrogant person in me didn't like the fact that the Boondocks seemingly took all my jokes and I was like, man, people gonna think I'm got that from the boondock so I'm just leave it alone.
Right.
>> I was an OG hater and so I it was a running joke in my community before like I ever had like got as big as I was that I was going to do a Tyler Perry video. I had I have a script uh well it's somewhere. I don't know where it's at now, but like that was like what the my Tyler Perry video was going to be like my third or fourth video at a time.
>> Wow.
>> I don't know why I didn't finish it. Um but I I left it alone then started doing other things and then um then then I you know let the community know they was like oh you gonna do that and um uh but the thing that as I got it's funny I went through a different a growth a political growth in between like wanting to do a video and writing that first version of the script and then what eventually happened and within that growth came that critique of black faces of high places black excellence etc. And so, you know, our mutual friend, right, not a super Tyler Perry fan, but was kind of like, you know, Tyler Perry do so much and da da da. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He You ever check his check his resume?
Like, who who has he put on?
And he was like, uh, Taj B. Henson. I was like, no, no, he employed her.
>> Yeah.
>> Who has he put on?
>> Yeah.
>> And crickets. And I would get that from every time I would get that ch and I was looking I was searching for this because I was like maybe I'm missing it.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but I was searching for the evidence that he had been actually doing big things to terraform the industry with his power and influence. And you look at that resume, you look at that IBMD, you look even deeper into all these other things I had to access and you don't see hardly nobody. In fact, you see plenty of people talking about, "I ain't never worked that dude ever again."
And once you notice that, once you check the resume, you say, you know, Jay-Z, he got he he bought the he bought the Nets, but actually he bought like a percentage of a percentage of a percentage of the Nets, and then he used that to allow them to influence the city to gentrify Brooklyn where he's from, push a bunch of these negroes out their community.
didn't give them nothing back. Gave them a Bitcoin uh a Bitcoin seminar.
>> Then he was with Kaepernick and then he went with Kaepernick when it was time for him to get his deal with the NFL.
And it's like, oh, that that's a pattern. That's a resume. And all these folks got resumes and you can they they gonna tell you that it's impossible not to see. And so like at a certain point, I love a black success story, but I got to check your resume. So when I look at Cougler and I hear Cougler put his boy on just for the love to make sure he had a spot. Again, Issa Ray is another one I talked about. She ain't done nothing but that since she came in the game, low key.
>> A person I I let escape and maybe I'll bring her up is how Wanda, not Wanda Sykes, what's the girl that did um Scandal?
>> Carrie Washington. No rhymes. Sha rhymes. Shondaanda Rimes don't put no black people on low key. She put a lot of people on. It's almost all white men.
She put us some black women on. She don't [ __ ] with black men at all. And it's mostly white men. And it's like, "Oh, Shondaanda, you can't get no you can't find no [ __ ] that [ __ ] with Shanda Land. Not even some you like like nothing, you know." But I was like, it's too much. I can't go at everybody. I can't just just air the street, you You know, I had a Spike Lee section.
>> Oh god. Yeah. See, you be digging deep into that cultural critique the way I do in like the theological stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I see why people be so like I am responding to you the way a lot of people respond to me, right? Cuz >> I've never thought about Shanda Rimes and her place in the culture and whether she putting people on. It's not something I've ever considered. And a lot of times when I point out the harmful theology of some of these mainstream Christian influencers, people be responding to me like, "Oh, I never even considered that." Like almost, "How dare you say that?" And I'll be like, "But have you actually examined their foundational theology? Like >> what the message they're actually preaching to you and the impact of that message? like how it leads to so much apathy in very important areas of your life, especially politically. Like, have you noticed that the religious right on the white church side, they telling you that you supposed to be a Republican and then these conservative black people are actually like um creating the space for your political >> supposed to be a Democrat.
>> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. You know, you can't trust the Democrats. It's like, okay, so what do you want people to do?
You know, it's like it's it's coded information. So, I'm I'm going to let you go. I just got one more question.
If the black church was to get it right, right, if the black church was going to play a significant role in the liberation of black people in the 21st century right now, the the second Trump regime, Christian nationalism, war in Iran, uh you know, it it's running wild. Like what what what where would the black church start? What would that look like to to reach and collaborate with people in your world who aren't attached to the black church like that but want to see black people liberated? What what's the role? It starts with the organiz the organizing aspect. It starts with um using that tool of the charismatic figures that head these churches that have the the talent to galvanize people and saying, "Hey, meet us here. Meet us here to do this thing. Maybe we just gonna clean up the community. Maybe we just gonna feed the homeless. Maybe we gonna shut down a factory.
Maybe we going to march on to the to the to the uh this site where they say they going to build a ICE detention center.
We just going to march and occupy it and let them drag us up out of here. Right now, you can't bring the anarchists to that with the church folks because they going to mess around get these church ladies, you know, beat up by the police.
Um but you know, and that's what like it's we've seen it. That is what King did. King was marching like and that's you know, shout out to um what's this name? Ava Duru, one of my mentors, never forgive her because uh in Selma, she erased Kwaami Té >> likewami Té at the time as Stokeley Carmichael marched with King regularly.
>> Yeah.
>> That was his right-hand man in the in the second half of the movement.
>> Um uh going into Selma.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and now Trey had not be he had >> Carmichael had not become fully Ray yet, but he was on his way there.
>> Yeah. And that was bringing that element to um to the you know to the space. Uh Malcolm and King connected way more than people realized. They were switching places.
>> King was getting more by any means necessary by the day. And Malcolm was like you know these [ __ ] is a little crazy. Let me let me let me rethink some of this White Devil speak stuff. It's not really all that.
>> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. But he was getting white he was he was he was getting white devil ideology from people who were in cahoots right >> with the white devils >> right low key. Um, >> and so, but I say all that to say, you get, you know, this new dude that's about to replace Jasmine Crockett, for example. You know, >> so >> the I heard of this dude, >> talking about Freddy Haynes.
>> Freddy Haynes.
>> I never heard of him, right?
>> The first place I see people talking about him is Hassan Hassanabi, the the Twitch streamer, who's like this big, you know, air quotes radical uh leftist figure, right? and he's not like he's actually much more normal than people realize, but that's >> um but that's a very white space, right?
>> Yeah.
>> But it still plays because that is a tradition that is so effective at galvanizing people that already has the tools built in.
>> Yeah. The reason why I wanted to meet with Pastor Jamal Bryant was because he could get 500 people to show up on 48 hours notice on a Tuesday.
>> Yeah.
>> And so if I I said this again on Deontay Cow's joint, instead of us like saying we're not going to go into Target, let's actually all go into Target at one time and shut it down. Let's go to the distribution center that I'm sure is somewhere in trucking truck stop Georgia because you know we the trucking capital of the country >> and say y'all not delivering nothing today >> and let them lose tens of thousands of dollars uh and see if they don't finally come to the table if we do that a couple of times if that spreads nationwide.
If you do that, >> these leftists will will gladly they will and I' I've told them go to church so you can start connecting it helping reconnect the dots. And some of them won't, some of them won't. I get it. Is church hurt?
>> I ain't telling nobody they have to go.
But I guarantee you if once they see a organized people's movement, a lot of folks will put the keyboard down and hit the streets. and and that's what I'm hoping to contribute to in some form of fashion >> as a non-believer.
>> Wow.
>> I I love that so much. I think that's where the collaboration is. And the problem with a lot of people in the black church is like we've been conditioned to think we're not supposed to collaborate with non-believers.
>> Um Yeah, I know. I know. Trust me, I know.
Indoctrination is a hell of a drug.
>> Hell of a drug.
>> So, so we we think that and that's why we we push back so much against this narrative that in the black church that was popularized by Tony Evans that you're Christian before you're black. So then we're taught to align, I say we, not me. I didn't come up in that type of space. But there are a lot of Christians who are black Christians who are taught to prioritize their Christian confession over their black identity. So that Christian comes before everything. And it it messes with their minds because now they're taught to only identify with Christian. Are you Christian? That's where we going to start. Are you a Christian? But then the people who are actively trying to so suppress, oppress, all of those different things, those people are Christian.
So if you identify with Christian first, a lot of times you going to be identifying with your oppressor when there's this agnostic atheist over here who actually wants to be liberated with you and will work with you, but you so caught up in Christianity, you missing the whole plot, >> missing the whole opportunity.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But the same thing also goes for some non-believers. Like >> Yes. I have gotten flak from people on the left who have not part of it is the white folks. Let's just And then it's also like, you know, one video idea that I may or may not get to this year is like I call it the fly in the milk experience where it's, you know, black folks who um don't have the same loving connection to black culture that I have even as a non-churchgoer, right?
>> Yeah. where they struggle to recognize the beauty and and what church culture offers um and only see the horrors of it which are more a reflection of a white theology than a black theology of any type let alone Christianity.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and folks need to get over that too because again all the weapons is over here. the organizing apparatus is already in place in the church. The mailing list, the funding uh resources, um the the the charismatic figureheads, all and the history, the biggest leftist um uh social movement in this country's history was a black church movement.
>> Yeah.
>> And and but people don't think about it like that. Yeah.
>> Think it was the civil rights movement.
They don't know that it wasn't the March on Washington. And it was a Marcel Washington for jobs >> started first by uh John Lewis.
>> You know what I'm saying? They had to King came at the last minute. People don't even know that part. He was not supposed to be a part of that march.
>> Um >> but you know >> and by Rustin work to do >> Yeah. And by Rustin was like the primary organizer of it.
>> Yeah. and and he also like he was very big into nonviolent action but still very much left like we going to subvert this entire system.
>> Yeah.
>> So yeah, >> we we got to get back to it. Anything you want to say about this topic that we didn't get a chance to say before you before you log off?
>> Um just understand you can love black people. You can you can seek excellence.
You can seek success. You can um smoke your hookah and eat your Fruity Pebble chicken wings and not have that and and not allow people to fool you into thinking that's liberation for everybody.
That's not liberation for everybody.
Everybody got cousins on a different side of town that ain't living like them and need to be incorporated and thought of the same way you would think of yourself and your bougie negro friends that they are part of your they they that's that's where the real resources are. Any any liberation movement also would not be led by petite bgeoa negroes will not be led by academics. It will not be led by you know the rich and successful. It will be led by the streets. Yeah.
>> And and the the church in the streets, you know what I'm saying?
>> Yeah.
>> So, there's there's so much here. You just gota you got to decolonize what success and beauty and excellence looks like to you. It it shouldn't look like the Carters. It shouldn't look like Kanye. It shouldn't look like Tyler insert person here. It It should look like Look, look to the look to the history.
>> Hold up. There's more where that came from. Hit the link in the show notes and join us on Patreon for the rest of this conversation and other conversations like it. Until then, I'll see you in these internet streets. Peace out.
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