Chuck Sylvester - Season 1 Episode 6

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]Welcome to Under the Lights podcast with Ash and Roy. They bring you straight into the stories of the Western world's toughest and most talented legendary horsemen, elite rodeo athletes, and powerhouse [music] musicians. No fluff, no filters, just real conversation about the grit, the setbacks, and the breakthroughs that build [music] these icons. Ash and Roy take you behind the scenes under the lights to hear what it really took to get there. [music] If you live the western lifestyle or just respect the grind, this one's for you. Kick back, crack a gold one, and enjoy the show.

[00:00:36]>> Hey everybody, welcome to Under the Lights with Ash and Roy. I am one of your hosts, Ashley Kendrick. I am here with Roy Dingis, my favorite co-host.

[00:00:46]Uh we are so excited today because we are going to a legend of the trotting horses and the standard red breed. And uh Chuck Sylvester, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:59]>> It's my pleasure.

[00:01:00]>> You're an absolute legend. You've been around for a lot of years with incredible horses. You are in the Hall of Fame. You are a true master of developing trotters and spanning decades of horsemanship under your belt. Um thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:18]>> Told you it's my pleasure to be interviewed, I guess.

[00:01:24]Now, you are currently in Florida, correct?

[00:01:27]>> Yes.

[00:01:28]>> Are you staying in Florida for the winters? Are you there for good? Now, >> I'm for good. The last two years, I haven't gone north. I stay right here.

[00:01:36]>> That's nice. That's You're smarter than the rest of us. Really? [laughter] Before we get too deep into the accolades, let's talk a little bit about growing up in your childhood. Could you take us back there?

[00:01:49]>> Sure. Uh, I grew up in Toledo, Ohio. Uh my father was uh owned a trucking company, a small trucking company. And uh I never saw a horse till I was 18 or 19 years old. Uh I was a freshman at Bowling Green University. I went there because I didn't want to go to the army back then. They drafted you. So I was in college and my dad I commuted from Toledo, which is about a 30 mile commute. And he said to me one day, "Go to the fairgrounds. I have a couple of horses over there training." Which I didn't even know he had.

[00:02:26]>> I went over there and they had this old gentleman about 80ome years old training.

[00:02:31]And he said, "Go ahead and you can jog."

[00:02:35]So eventually I joged the horse. He said, "Go two or three times around and go over there by that grandstand and turn the other way." And I did that.

[00:02:42]Holy Christ, the horse took off.

[00:02:45]>> And I thought he had an old jog cart. it was ready to fall apart. And uh I'll never forget I went around three minutes and I thought, "My god, I'm flying out here." You know, that was my first experience.

[00:03:00]>> And you'd never touched a horse prior to that day.

[00:03:03]>> No. And I was I think I was a freshman or sophomor in college.

[00:03:09]>> Roy, Chuck is proof of exactly what you say all the time. Anybody can do this.

[00:03:16]show them.

[00:03:17]>> I ruined a lot of them at first because I didn't know any better, but it took me a while to learn.

[00:03:22]>> Yeah.

[00:03:23]>> Yeah. I think that's all of us when we when we start out like that. So, uh, so being from Ohio, you and you and Jean Regal became friends.

[00:03:33]>> Well, only races. He trained in Greenville and I trained at Bowling Green, which is quite a ways apart. I would only see him at the fairs.

[00:03:42]>> I got you. Yeah. Yeah. Two legends.

[00:03:45]Yeah. Yeah. That turned out pretty incredible.

[00:03:49]>> Jean was on top of the world at that time. He uh, you know, he had great horses, expensive horses, and I was dealing with real cheap horses, but uh, he was very good.

[00:03:59]>> Yeah.

[00:04:00]>> Chuck, about what year did you know that you wanted to train horses for a living?

[00:04:06]probably a year or so when I was in uh my dad bought a couple of yearlings and we had four horses and I after my sophomore year I quit college and went to training horses full-time and I knew that's what I like to do and I wasn't very good at first and trial and error I learned because the guys at the fairgrounds back then they wouldn't help you at all. They was competitive and they let you train every day if you wanted to. They didn't know and they didn't care. they let you ruin your horse. So after a while, I learned, you know, the routine. And I remember the first time I went to the jug. I don't remember what year it was. I saw Stanley Dancer and Billy Holl and I said, "Oh my god, look at those stables. That's what I want to be someday." So that was my goal.

[00:04:53]>> That's Go ahead.

[00:04:56]>> Did you have a a mentor, somebody that you looked up? I mean, besides the Htons and the dancers. No, he's an old gentleman and he was he had Alzheimer's so he could sometimes we trained every day of the week because he can didn't remember that we trained the day before >> and eventually I found out you can't do that after I ruined them all.

[00:05:15]>> But no, I had it was just trial and error by myself.

[00:05:19]>> Wow.

[00:05:21]>> Transitioning from Ohio fair racing I mean and fast forward to the elite lop and and incredible Hamiltonian victories. There's a lot that happened in between there, but let's talk about how we got when did you start to transition to stakes horses and higher caliber bred horses?

[00:05:40]>> Well, the best horse I had back then was a horse called Diamond Exchange. Uh we bought him a decoin for 6,000 me and my partner and he turned out to be a good horse and uh he in fact he raced he made a break in a handle but he raced in a handle and he won the trotting derby and that was quite a story because we were both broke. We went out west to the trotting st derby and had no money and give them a bad check [laughter] and we hadn't win the race. So, we were thank God that we won because we had no money to cover the check. So, that was a good story.

[00:06:21]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:06:23]>> Was that the first horse uh that that that people really paid attention to who Chuck Sylvester was?

[00:06:29]>> I think so. Because Billy Hton at the time, this horse wouldn't sit in and follow. He'd shake his head all the time. And I remember one of the steak races out west. I sat on the top of on outside of Billy the whole mile and he beat me by a head and he says, "Where in the hell did you get that horse?" He said, he said, "He went a hell of a mile." I said, "Well, he won't sit in."

[00:06:49]So eventually I found that I found my father had a like trucking business.

[00:06:54]They had a welder there and I took welder's lens and ground him down and put him in peekaboos and that would color the stone dust where he didn't jump all the time and that's how I learned to be a good horse.

[00:07:09]>> That's the kind of stuff I love. I love >> Do you remember those things?

[00:07:15]>> The the big cuffs that >> Oh, yeah.

[00:07:18]>> Yeah. And I put a welder's lens on each on each one and it just made everything look more gray and he didn't therefore he didn't f he would follow the pebbles off the track and duck them >> and uh after a while he got so he would follow.

[00:07:34]>> Unbelievable. That's it's just shows it goes to show the horsemanship here that that you know I I'm sure we could talk about that bird ever and ever. Speaking back, I'm a little biased. I'm going to go back to Dcoin and Springfield. I'm from Illinois. Absolutely fell in love with those racetracks. Do you have any significant memories from the Dcoin and in Springfield days?

[00:08:01]>> Well, uh, the coin was where I won the World T. Yeah, World Trotting Derby, I think it was called back then.

[00:08:09]>> And that's where we get the bad check.

[00:08:11]We had to go three heats. Bobby Williams was my driver then and we ended up winning. So that was, you know, that was a big boost to us. That was a lot of money for us back then.

[00:08:22]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:24]>> We always love to go to those tracks because you always after coming off of Michigan. Back then I was racing kind of in Michigan.

[00:08:31]>> They were so much faster. You could go so much faster out there.

[00:08:35]>> Yeah.

[00:08:36]>> Yeah. You also had Springfield, right?

[00:08:39]And >> Yes.

[00:08:40]>> Yeah. That's where Max set the world record, right?

[00:08:43]>> Yeah. And it was windy that day. It wasn't It was hot but windy as hell.

[00:08:48]>> Yeah.

[00:08:49]>> So, transitioning back to the East Coast, do you remember about what year you started? You were in New Jersey in New York area.

[00:08:59]>> That was Diamond Exchange. I can't remember what the hell year it was back in the 70s.

[00:09:04]>> And I took him out there when he was at at three. And uh and I left him with uh uh Ray Remen >> and Ray after the Hambo he made a break.

[00:09:17]He couldn't keep him flat and he sent him home. He said, "I don't think he's going to do here, Chuck." So he sent him back home to me and I waited till he was four, then went back and then at four he really got consistent and could beat the big boys.

[00:09:30]>> Wow. Now, a lot of the stories that we're going to talk about in the horses we looked at are trotters.

[00:09:38]Talk to us about your heart for a trotder or and did you have a lot of pacers in the barn as well?

[00:09:44]>> I had a few pacers. Uh the best one I think I ever had probably was laughs.

[00:09:49]>> Uh he was a good horse. But uh with the trotters I found out at the fairgrounds just about everybody had pacers. And with the trotters they didn't get along with them. And it seems like I got along with the trotters. So I swayed towards trotters all the time. for for our listeners that are not in harness racing or don't have the harness racing um background. It reminds me a little bit in the quarter horse land the difference between barrel horse bred horses and like pleasure or cattle bred horses. Your barrel horses are bred to be a little hotter. They're a little flightier, a little it's just a different beast where you know you have a cow horse, a cattle bread, they're more laidback. The trotters always seem to be a little bit higher alert, more more perceptive, >> not near as high as the thoroughbreds.

[00:10:40]Thoroughbreds are they're much more flighty and our horses are much calmer than what they are.

[00:10:48]>> Yeah, for sure. And and back in the day, Chuck, uh, you know, I grew up in the business as well. Back then, you had to shoe a troder different than you do today. Uh I think they were just a little more rugged and uh the breeding's gotten so good that you don't have to do >> no >> the things we did back then.

[00:11:11]>> They're really natural now. Back then I wore heavy shoes on a lot of them. And you know we start out the fairs like aton and win in 211 212 >> back then with and then by the end of the year you're trotting around 27 but that was big back then you know.

[00:11:28]>> Yeah.

[00:11:28]>> But nowadays the there are some troters race aluminum shoes now. So >> you know they're just natural now.

[00:11:36]>> They are. One of the toughest parts I think about watch horse trainers and being a successful horse trainer is the horses are its own beast. But dealing with owners and expectations, perceptions and finances is really very difficult and you've done this very very well over decades. Could you tell us about how that >> how that balance >> with owners they most of them listen to me but you know with me with the troder I found out that watching other trainers back then even when I got a bigger stable horses would be lame and trainers didn't know it I could see their horse was getting lame they I never said anything and first thing you know they had to be dead lame before they found out the horse was bad but I always could figure out early that a horse was getting off and I treat them and and then he recover. But with owners, I always just treated them all alike. Uh I tell them the truth. If their horse was no good, I'd tell them. And I never had any problems that way.

[00:12:43]>> Yeah. I think that's the best way to go about it.

[00:12:45]>> Yeah, it was. Yes.

[00:12:47]>> Yeah. If you were to give advice to a young trainer starting out today, is there one specific piece of advice you'd give?

[00:12:56]>> Just have more patience. These guys are getting them ready too early and most of the time they wear out before the summer's over.

[00:13:06]You know, I made it a point to as a two-year-old, eight to 10 starts. That was it. No more. Try to save him and end up fresh so he could come back the next year. I made a mistake with Mac because he was my first great horse. I raced him 17 times, maybe 18 times as a two-year-old >> and I thought, "Oh my god." You know, now I think back at that, that was way too many. But he responded, so I was lucky.

[00:13:32]>> Yeah. It's funny you said that because uh Mark Weaver was on our podcast a couple weeks ago and and we got talking about that because I agree with you. You should limit the number of stars for two-year-olds >> and the way Kentucky is going now, the money's getting so good, you have to race these things so many times to to even get in the final.

[00:13:53]>> Yeah, true. And I I I love the money, but I hate that you have to race a two-year-old so many times.

[00:14:02]>> Most of the time, if you race them 12, 14 times as a two-year-old, by the end of the year, they're not going to be a great three-year-old. They won't come back as tough as they would if you' stopped at eight or nine starts.

[00:14:17]Speaking of Mobel, you're we I I've never been a I've never heard the story from the beginning from the yearling days of Mobel. Could you take us to that horse and talk a little bit about uh his beginnings with you as a trainer?

[00:14:35]>> Well, when we got him, of course, the Levit had heavy shoes on all of his yearlings when they left. He'd come with a uh maybe a keg shoe in front, but something pretty close. Real heavy.

[00:14:47]>> Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> When I [clears throat] got him, >> he trotted good, but he had all that weight on and and every time I tried to lighten him up, he'd get pasty. So, we just got that weight on two-y old truck.

[00:14:58]>> Two Yeah, his two-year-old. And he'd make breaks, do stupid things. And I remember the day in February, we was going to go mount in the 40s. We had a stable, you know, five or six train together back then and he made a break.

[00:15:12]I wasn't driving while the boys were and I said he just earned himself another trip. So we waited a while, took him back out and went down the half and 20 and steered him up and he went out on 22 in February. And I said, "Oh boy, put him away, boys. We got a good one." From that point on, you just knew he was going to be a good horse.

[00:15:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. And then he had an incredible two-year-old.

[00:15:35]And then he was in 1988 or was it I think what year how old was he when he went to the elite lop >> four?

[00:15:46]>> He was a four-year-old. So that would have been in 87 he was a three-year-old.

[00:15:51]And tell us a little bit about his three-year-old.

[00:15:54]>> Well, after racing him so many times at two, I decided, look at we we can't do this. So we started late with him and I think he only had maybe three starts before the hambo, maybe four at the most >> and that's why he was fresh.

[00:16:11]But you know back then you went two heats all the time and eventually he got tired at the end of the year. But he was such a smart horse and could go as long as you didn't ask him too much. He uh I think at Delaware we were going to set the world's record and John kept asking him down the backstretch and he was in front by maybe 15 and uh he decided that's enough and he come to almost a threeminute clip. Everybody caught him.

[00:16:40]Then he took off again. He still wanted to set the world's record but after he tried to draw up because John said well I asked him one too many times and that's the way he was. He had an attitude that way. Yeah, it's funny. And and if Chuck knows, I don't know, after the Hamiltonian, they crossed the wire and he made it break.

[00:17:00]>> Yes. His feet were stinging him that day. It was hot. They couldn't get any cushion on the track. And I was prepared for it. I had my blanksmith beforehand make up a set of shoes with a full pad on them.

[00:17:12]>> So after the first, that's what we did.

[00:17:14]We pulled his shoes off and put the other ones on and it helped him, but still the track was very hard. See, after all these after all these years, now I know this the story.

[00:17:23]>> Now you know, >> it's so crazy.

[00:17:30]Coming transitioning from a three-year-old to fouryear-old, did you have your eyes set on going to Europe with this horse?

[00:17:39]>> Well, I think Gida did more than me.

[00:17:43]>> Yeah, he had talked to people over there and they said they'd like to invite him and it it's tough taking a four-year-old over there. Yes, >> those are all aged horses. But he was so dominant and come back so good. Uh I said, "Well, let's, you know, we'll give it a try." But that was a bad week, too, because when he got over to the elite lap, he wouldn't go.

[00:18:03]He decided to walk and jog. He got like a stud thing or something and he wouldn't he wouldn't train. And I there was a picture of him on the front of the page with me pushing him and and Randy groom pulling him and he's on the track just take him one step at a time and I thought oh my god and I called the owner and I said if I can't get him to train by Thursday we we can't race >> this lucky uh I think it was Lindstead came to me and said look at I'll bring a couple of prompters out and they bought two horses out and he trained with us and trained super but he he wanted company. He wouldn't go by himself at all.

[00:18:44]>> Yeah, >> that was I never watched the race that day on the reruns. I was so nervous. I thought he's going to draw up in the first turn. Well, he never did. [snorts] He was perfect.

[00:18:55]>> I remember that that piece they asked John about the elite lock and he said Chuck called me frantic saying he won't go.

[00:19:05]>> Like put him with another horse. He said we tried it and he won't go. And uh I I see the video you're you pulling him and he just he's not having it.

[00:19:14]>> No, that's true. He just decided that's enough. He didn't kick or anything. Just planted himself, looked around and like King of the Mountain >> and that [clears throat] was him. He had an attitude of his own.

[00:19:27]>> Oh my goodness. Well, for for those again who who may not know, the Elite Lop is a very elite open trot in in Sweden in Stockholm. It's one of the most magnificent events I have personally ever been to.

[00:19:48]The it it is the Super Bowl of harness racing. Is there any other better way to explain that, Chuck?

[00:19:56]>> No, that was it. There's thousands and thousands of people there. And it was amazing that day when I warmed him up, he started the same thing, just walking and walking. But the people started cheering so much, they finally kind of spooked him and he took off and joged.

[00:20:11]But uh because the people they was 40, 50,000 people there, you know, and uh they just it kind of scared him a little and so he went and jog and did his work.

[00:20:22]Oh, well, >> there had to be a certain amount of pressure.

[00:20:28]>> Oh, not not only because him balking, but you're looking at one of the greatest at the time the greatest troder ever to come back.

[00:20:38]>> And now, how much how was the pressure trying to win this thing?

[00:20:42]>> Oh, it was crazy. It was terrible. Uh, and then the owner, the guy was going to buy him, what the was his name? Uh he was standing there, he was getting the money from the bank and he stood next to me during the race and his back was to the track too and when he won he turned around he says, "Chuck, you just made me a million dollars because he had he had bought him for 500 million and sold him for six."

[00:21:10]>> So he that same day the bank owned him I think at the time.

[00:21:16]Then he won the elite lap the next year for them. He won it two years in a row.

[00:21:20]Yes.

[00:21:22]>> Well, we know you couldn't watch that race in person live because you had your back to it. Is it okay if we watch it here together and you >> Oh, I've seen it several times since.

[00:21:33]Sure.

[00:21:33]>> I figured you had seen it a million times. Oh, yeah. Producer Brit, do you mind bringing up Mabel's um Elite Lop start the This is an old tape. It's from 1988. So, >> sure. You know, bear with us everybody who's who's watching it. It's a little tough to see.

[00:21:52]>> Okay, >> we'll uh we'll get her playing it. And let's see. Is there a full full screen option on there, Brit? Where did he have Did he have the rail?

[00:22:04]>> No. No, he was out I think he's on uh on the outside now, I think. Going to the front, I think.

[00:22:12]>> Okay, there he is. Yeah. Three wide on the outside.

[00:22:15]>> Yeah.

[00:22:15]>> Now, do you remember the other horses in this race? Well, >> at the time I did. Now I can't recall.

[00:22:22]There was a mariner was very good. I know that.

[00:22:25]>> And if uh >> that's John top there.

[00:22:28]>> Oh yeah, he was in top. Yes, he was. And the rest of the way. And there was a good mayor behind him. And he knew if he let this guy go that that mayor was going to come out right away.

[00:22:37]>> So that's why he didn't let anybody go.

[00:22:39]He just hung on to him and let him do his own thing.

[00:22:44]>> Did he Did you guys Did John Campbell is Hall of Fame one of the most incredible drivers? He's the goat of harness drivers. Did you two speak a lot about strategy going into this race?

[00:22:56]>> No. No. Just hope that he behaved and we knew he had the ability to beat him if he would just behave himself and try.

[00:23:05]>> Yeah.

[00:23:05]>> Because he had he had more class than the rest. And then we're all aged horses. you know.

[00:23:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. And we've spoke about this a little bit, Roy and I. When you're a four-year-old going into harness racing, you race with foury olds plus. So, there were nine nine year olds in there, seveny olds. A lot of experience.

[00:23:24]>> He was the only four-year-old for sure.

[00:23:26]>> Oh, he was. Okay. And that's still him on the front. Um to watch.

[00:23:33]>> Pardon me.

[00:23:34]>> Did you ever turn around and just peek at the track when you were there? I might have a little bit towards the end I think when he was calling him in front so much. Then right at the end I watched it. I think >> what was the elite lot purse that year?

[00:23:51]>> I'm guessing 350 maybe.

[00:23:53]>> Right in there. Yeah.

[00:23:55]>> 350,000 American.

[00:23:57]>> Yeah.

[00:23:58]>> Yep. Okay. Thanks Brett. You know it's So did he what after that start did he stay in Europe?

[00:24:09]>> No, he came back.

[00:24:11]>> Okay.

[00:24:12]>> And I think we raced him in some races over here and then he ended up shipping back over there at the end of the year.

[00:24:18]>> Okay. Okay. That makes That's amazing.

[00:24:21]>> Yeah.

[00:24:22]>> Um Wow. I can't imagine the ulcers that you had when you were trying to break.

[00:24:30]>> Yeah.

[00:24:32]>> Well, I I think I think we're in Well, we're in 2026 and a testament to you and Maclo Bell that when someone says who is the greatest troder ever, Mobel still pops up uh you know 87 88 and still today it was relevant. So, uh, that's a great testament to you and Mac.

[00:24:54]>> Well, yeah. And a cheap horse, too.

[00:24:58][laughter] >> What did he cost as a yearling? Do you >> 17,000?

[00:25:03]>> So, Alan Levit purchased him as a yearling.

[00:25:05]>> No, no, he bred him. The guy bought him for 17,000.

[00:25:09]>> Okay, that's okay. 17,000.

[00:25:12]>> Yes.

[00:25:14]Was there was there ever any other good Mystic Parks?

[00:25:21]>> Not very good. I had a known cost 90. He raced, but he wasn't that good.

[00:25:26]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:25:28]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:29]>> Let's stay in the time era because uh I never get to ask anyone this question, but but Chuck, you know, well, one of my favorite mayors of all time, uh Peace Corp, who then uh they bred to Max Well, you've seen Peace Corp race back.

[00:25:46]What were your thoughts on >> Well, she was a great mayor. She was great gated and could go, but I think there was times when she was just a little unsound, >> right?

[00:25:56]>> But yeah, I watched her closely because she was competition back then. So, >> right.

[00:26:02]>> Crazy. Another another roster Chuck Sylvester horse that just blows everybody's mind was Park Avenue Joe.

[00:26:13]How did you acquire this horse?

[00:26:16]>> That was Lou Ga bought him for I think 90,000 and uh he trained good, but it was amazing. as a three-year-old. I can't remember his two-year-old, but as a three-year-old, he had 12 or 13 different drivers. [laughter] He'd qualify and then he'd make a break in a race. In fact, I qualified him once myself. Qualify and then make a break in a race. And he kept doing that all summer. And finally, the ambo, he put it together. And that kind of cooked him because he had to go three heats that day. But >> uh yeah he was not good but it it took a lot out of it.

[00:26:57]>> Heat racing we have transitioned away from heat racing. I know what are your thoughts? What do what were your feelings for I mean I hate to bring it up as we bring up that it was very difficult on Park Avenue Joe but did you enjoy heat racing?

[00:27:15]>> Yes.

[00:27:16]>> Yeah. because I always felt there was things I could do in between trips to help the horse and so I really enjoyed uh heat racing. I know I talked to Campbell about it and he was always against it but I was always in favor of heat racing.

[00:27:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. So Park Avenue Joe back to in the 1989 Hamiltonian he ended up having to go three heats.

[00:27:42]The first heat now to have to go three heats. Each horse that won a heat then competed together in the final. Correct.

[00:27:51]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:27:52]>> Yeah. What was his >> Did we come back alone? I don't remember.

[00:27:57]>> That heated with pro.

[00:27:58]>> Yeah. In the final. But was there more people or was that the last >> Yeah. We're going to we're going to pull up um Brick, go ahead and if you can pull up Park Avenue Joe's heat uh final heat race. This was >> It might have been just two heats. I could be mistaken.

[00:28:18]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:28:19]>> It was It was three heats. Yeah.

[00:28:21]>> Oh, okay.

[00:28:22]>> Yeah. Maybe you weren't wrong.

[00:28:25]>> Yeah, you were right.

[00:28:28]>> Wow.

[00:28:30]>> This was a big deal to have it televised back then.

[00:28:34]>> Which are you, Joe? Are you the rail or the outside?

[00:28:37]>> The second >> I got Wiples driving my horse. So I was I had the rail.

[00:28:42]>> Okay.

[00:28:43]>> Billy Fay drove the other horse.

[00:28:45]>> Was this Was this Ronnie and Billy's only win in the Hambo? I believe.

[00:28:50]>> I think so.

[00:28:52]>> Yeah.

[00:28:52]>> Yeah.

[00:28:54]>> Three heat.

[00:28:56]>> And do you have any major changes after the elimination going into this final?

[00:29:00]>> No. No. He was he was good. As good as he could be. So, uh, we didn't make any changes.

[00:29:11]>> We just, uh, I don't think we went very fast. I mean, might have come the last half hard, last quarter, but I think M around 24, 25 maybe somewhere there.

[00:29:22]>> It's good to see him taking it easy and then they sprint for sure.

[00:29:25]>> Yeah, I think that's what what they finally did because I see 29 and four for the quarter. So, >> I think it was I think it was two minutes and two fifths if I remembered.

[00:29:36]>> Was it?

[00:29:36]>> I believe I I can't remember what I did yesterday, but I can remember back together.

[00:29:41]>> Yeah. Wow.

[00:29:44]>> Some crazy stuff.

[00:29:46]>> And what kind of horse was Probed? Nice.

[00:29:50]>> Yes, he was a nice horse. I mean, neither one of these were great horses.

[00:29:54]They were just nice horses.

[00:29:56]>> Yeah.

[00:29:58]>> Park Avenue. Was he a Super Bowl or >> No. Uh, my horse or Probe I think was he kind of Yeah, I think he was. Yes, >> that was that was the era of the Super Bowl. Speedy Crown.

[00:30:20]>> Yeah.

[00:30:24]>> 133 and four.

[00:30:27]All right, here we go.

[00:30:37]It's so interesting to watch these race.

[00:30:39]Look at that. Oh, >> your little horse had to fight. Your horse had to fight back.

[00:30:44]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:50]>> And that's something. Two minutes and two fifths. Wow.

[00:30:52]>> Yeah.

[00:30:54]>> Rolling. He looked like a little horse, Chuck. Was he?

[00:30:58]>> Uh, he was pretty good size. He wasn't a real small horse. No.

[00:31:03]>> No.

[00:31:04]>> Not quite as small as Chip Chip.

[00:31:07]>> Oh, Chip Chip Ray is a lot smaller.

[00:31:10]>> Yeah.

[00:31:11]>> He was a He's still living by the farm where I trained.

[00:31:14]>> Oh, he is.

[00:31:15]>> Yeah. He's 26 years old, I guess.

[00:31:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. He's a in 200 Chip Chip Heret won the 2002 Hamiltonian.

[00:31:25]>> Right. So, he was three. Yes.

[00:31:27]>> Yeah. So, uh, tell us a little bit about how he came to you as yearling or two year.

[00:31:33]>> Well, my friend Neil Goldman, uh, that was one of his picks because he's a pedigree guy and he just loved to buy horses on pedigrees and he wasn't very big and uh, he said, "We got to buy this horse." I said, "My god, he's a, you know, he's a big he's small, he's little." He said, "If you don't want want him, I'll take him." So we bought him and I took half of him and turned out to be great. So yeah, >> 20 I think he was 20,000.

[00:32:05]>> You've made a living with a lot of a lot of incredible buys. You know, speaking of that, you your look at yearling sales and yearling books is very different and very unique to many others. I don't want to give all the Chuck Sylvester secrets away, but I'd love to hear from your point of view what you really look for when you're looking at yearlings and and looking at pedigree books.

[00:32:36]>> Well, naturally, uh, I look at their head first. Everybody does. But as far as confirmation, I don't like to see a horse towe in real bad. Every horse I ever had that towed in bad would usually hit their shins. The only one that didn't was uh Muscle Hill or Muscle Yankee >> he he towed in a little but he he got away with it but most of them don't. And uh so I get I like horses that tow out just a little and not real wide chest kind of a narrow chest which is unusual too.

[00:33:11]>> So because a wide chested horse it seems like they'll hit their knees where the narrow chest the ones don't.

[00:33:17]>> So >> what about superstitions? Do you have any superstitions? Like some people are really serious about swirls or mane on a certain side.

[00:33:27]>> Color doesn't bother me or anything like that. No.

[00:33:32]>> That's so cool. That's so cool. Well, I don't want to get too far from Chip Chip Hooray. Real I want to circle back just because I'd love to sit and watch his Hamiltonian with you if that's okay. Um do you mind bringing that up, Brett?

[00:33:47]We've got a our our behind-the-scenes producer takes really good care of us.

[00:33:51]So, usually we can shoot her some some crazy things.

[00:33:56]>> Well, the favorite was Andover Hall, of course.

[00:33:59]>> Yes.

[00:33:59]>> And uh in the Paddock, I saw Bobby Stewart and I says, "Looks like you're gone down the road today." Because he had put a straight bit in his mouth and usually you can't hold him too much with that. And of course he got tucked in and uh and when he didn't get out he ran up over the horse in front of him there and >> that was him third on the rail. Yeah.

[00:34:21]>> Yep. Yeah.

[00:34:23]>> Where were you right now on this on the track?

[00:34:26]>> I think setting fifth.

[00:34:28]>> Okay.

[00:34:29]>> I think >> Yep. Yep. You're Yeah.

[00:34:32]>> Yes.

[00:34:34]>> Out a little bit. Did that s I bet hand overhaul making a break was a shock.

[00:34:39]>> Well, yeah. because he was the big favorite.

[00:34:42]>> And uh I think we were probably uh maybe six to one, something like that. And uh we got lucky. Those horses pulled and kept rolling hard as they could, you know, and and it was good for us because we could sit back there and follow and collect the pieces at the end.

[00:35:03]Right there. I just felt, oh god, we're going to get a good check out of here. I didn't think we could win, but I thought for sure we're going to get a good check. And then we're halfway around the last turn and here he come did a good job with him.

[00:35:18]>> Oh yeah, he did for sure.

[00:35:20]>> Yeah.

[00:35:22]>> Yeah. I remember sitting in a rosec uh paddock watching this watching this race.

[00:35:28]>> Oh yeah.

[00:35:31]>> Yeah.

[00:35:33]>> Unbelievable.

[00:35:34]>> Look out. Eric, was this Eric's only Hamiltonian and when >> Sure. Probably the only drive you ever had in the Hambo? I'm guessing >> that was my next question. Yeah, >> Chuck, you're giving these guys their first wins in the Hambo. [laughter] >> Wels and Leford.

[00:35:56]>> Yeah.

[00:35:58]>> Was uh was John the first, too?

[00:36:02]John, I think probably Mac was his first handle, I'm guessing. Yes.

[00:36:08]>> There you go. You got three of them.

[00:36:10]>> Yeah.

[00:36:12]>> It's pretty crazy.

[00:36:14]>> I just love it.

[00:36:18]>> Yeah, that was that's pretty awesome.

[00:36:22]>> Four to the credit.

[00:36:24]>> Yes.

[00:36:27]>> That's Kelly.

[00:36:28]>> Yeah.

[00:36:30]Yeah. Look at that.

[00:36:32]>> Yeah, >> it's fun looking.

[00:36:34]>> He was small. [laughter] >> He kind of reminds me of Marichair's size.

[00:36:41]>> Oh, yeah. He was that small.

[00:36:43]>> Yeah, he was he he really shot up as four-year-old dear Moore, but he I just remember being so small. Um, when you are thinking back to some of the most incredible horses you've had, there's a lot of great horses that sometimes fall through the cracks that don't get the accolades that they deserve. Was there anybody on your roster that you felt really didn't get the appreciation or didn't get a fair fair shake at it?

[00:37:11]>> Well, he he he turned out to be a great horse was Pine Chip. Uh he was a very good horse and bigger and at the end of his three-year I told everybody he's better than Mack because he was stronger and could finish better and had a great attitude but he never turned out to make the money Mack did and in the elite lop they wouldn't they changed the rules on me and I couldn't wear his equipment that I did here so he end up having a knee boot come down which he never wore and made a break finish it but I had to end up taking the four hole leaving because they wouldn't let me use two head poles.

[00:37:50]Uh, and Mac >> and that was the rule change that year.

[00:37:54]>> Yeah, because Mac wore two and there's no problem and I went over there and then they told me you can't wear two, take your pick.

[00:38:01]>> So, after I got there, if I had known it, I would have wouldn't have given permission. I wouldn't have went. I said, "Look, are you racing my way?"

[00:38:09]Because I told them afterwards, I said, "Look, you guys race with gating poles."

[00:38:13]I said, "I don't care if you put them between your legs. You let him race with them." I said, "We should be able to race with two head poles."

[00:38:20]>> But yeah, he would have won that race easy. He was by far the best horse.

[00:38:25]>> He was he was probably one of my favorite ever to watch. Uh he was second to American winner, but then as the year went, he just got better and better and better.

[00:38:36]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:38:37]>> And then John time trled him. He he broke the world record then 51 if I'm not mistaken.

[00:38:45]Uh yeah he was uh he was an Ardon too, didn't he? Didn't he have that attitude of an ardon?

[00:38:53]>> And out of a speedy somole mayor should have been hot but he wasn't. He was perfect manner.

[00:38:59]>> Is he? Yeah.

[00:39:00]>> And he was 17,000 too.

[00:39:03]>> That's the sweet spot I guess.

[00:39:05]>> It was for me back then. Yes.

[00:39:10]We're gonna go to the yearling sale this year and we're gonna go we're gonna go watch everything that sold for7,000 and we're [laughter] gonna pay real 17,000.

[00:39:19]Excuse me. We're going to pay real good attention to them. It's fun. Well, I tell you what, there's just so so many a lot of stories and a lot of fun fun things to say. Do you have an experience that within harness racing that really touches your heart? Like one specific either race or you know induction >> naturally. Yeah, that was great. But naturally the first time when Mac won the handle that was special because you dream [clears throat] of that race, you know, and then end up winning it was really a moment for me.

[00:39:59]>> Was it a surprise to you? because I don't think it was a surprise to others around you when you were inducted into the Hall of Fame.

[00:40:08]>> Yeah. I didn't even think about it until they called and and and asked me and I said, "Well, yeah, sure. I guess I will.

[00:40:15]Sure." I didn't even tell you the truth, I hardly didn't know what it was.

[00:40:19][laughter] You know, I knew guys that was in. I knew John was in. I knew Billy O'Donnell was in and a few guys and and I thought, Jesus, you know, it's quite a privilege, I guess. souls. I said gladly. Yes.

[00:40:34]>> Yeah. That's Yeah, that's awesome. So, Chuck, I'm gonna I'm gonna put this out there that growing up it was it was the Chuck Sylvester and the Ron Gerine show, right? As far as you know, I used to run to the mailbox to get the harness horse in the mail every Monday or whatever it was to to look at the results. And um and I can tell you that I was really really pulling for you with Lucky Chucky. I wanted you to get number five >> and just a fan of you and when he just lost the Hamiltonian. I was it hurt.

[00:41:12]>> Yeah, it it did me too. And it was kind of my fault. We had shot him on early that week and then trained him on Wednesday, I guess, and he was blowing pretty good and the vet gave him some fluids after he trained and he got a little bit of a reaction.

[00:41:31]>> So, wasn't a good week pulling up to the hambo. Then after that, he was really good, but >> he he didn't have a good week going into the hambo, >> but he he put in a good fight coming to the wire. Uh >> oh, yes. And he got the biggest cheers because my past son had passed away the year before.

[00:41:49]>> So he got a big ovation when he potent got to the front.

[00:41:53]>> Yeah.

[00:41:54]>> Yeah. I'll never forget that.

[00:41:56]>> It was an incredible incredible race and that was a very emotional race for of course you and many that loved you guys.

[00:42:08]>> Yeah, you're right.

[00:42:10]You have had a lot of drivers work for you over the past many, many years. Did you have I mean, John, of course, is one of the is the greatest driver, but did you have some drivers that you really felt could just do things other drivers couldn't?

[00:42:28]>> Yeah, I always love Billy O'Donnell and I like Mike Le Chance, but Mike was tied up with Gerine that I didn't get a chance to use him very often, but he was very good. Then Cat Manzy, I used him a lot. He was very good at the time. So that was my four guys that I really would like to go to.

[00:42:45]>> Yeah, I think Cat was really underrated.

[00:42:48]>> Yes, he was.

[00:42:50]>> He had great hands.

[00:42:52]>> Yeah.

[00:42:54]>> You're still very very active with this stable of horses over the winters. And how many do you currently have now?

[00:43:02]>> Five. That's that's all. Yeah. I'm not not too many.

[00:43:07]And do you send those horses up north to another trainer when they're ready?

[00:43:12]>> Yeah, I won't go north. I got four of them babies in there, four different tracks, so I'll send them to different people.

[00:43:22]>> When you're watching the races over the last, you know, I'd say five, six, seven years, is there anybody or pacing trainers? I know most of us have have most of them have both. Is there any young guns out there that are really surprising you and you really think are talented trainers?

[00:43:42]>> Not really. Uh I like that kid from uh Poconos. Uh he does a great job now.

[00:43:49]>> Okay.

[00:43:50]>> Uh what's his uh who I think of Kelly?

[00:43:56]>> Yeah, the young Yeah, he you know driver.

[00:44:00]>> He drove lefty righty all the time last year.

[00:44:05]Braxton Boyd. Yes.

[00:44:07]>> Yeah. He's got upcoming good trainer.

[00:44:09]Very good driver. I mean, yes.

[00:44:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:13]>> But these guys, you know, that connected the big stables, they're going to win the majority of races because they're driving the best horses.

[00:44:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a numbers game, unfortunately.

[00:44:23]>> Oh, sure.

[00:44:24]>> Yeah.

[00:44:26]This is this it's it's it's a interesting interesting um time. Things have changed a little bit in the land of stakes as Kentucky has become really a hot spot for for dual eligible horses and st. >> Is there one specific sire and or staking program that you were very loyal to when you were purchasing a lot of yearlings?

[00:44:55]>> I like muscle hills because that horse I tried to buy bad. uh I was the under bidder on him and we just kind of run out of money at the time but uh you know they're all you know any of those top sireers now can produce >> so uh you know I don't I'm not fussy I have a chapter 7 I have uh >> one tactical landing and and two captain cory's >> so you know and they're they're nice that horse is a surprise but a good sire So, >> okay.

[00:45:33]>> Yeah, >> there's a little mix of pacing blood that's kind of >> popped up recently in these troters.

[00:45:40]What are your thoughts?

[00:45:42]>> Well, evidently uh it's not hurting them and they make speed, so everybody you'll see everybody start doing it now.

[00:45:50]>> Yeah, they they'll all keep doing it.

[00:45:53]>> Oh, sure. I mean, if you look back, direct scooter had uh pacing blood and trotten blood. Yes, >> he produced some good ones.

[00:46:05]>> You came from the days of the heyday of harness racing where the public naturally went to the track. They were very educated on the horses and over the past few decades we our industry has really fallen away from that.

[00:46:23]>> Yeah.

[00:46:23]>> Gambling is done online. People have no connection to the horse anymore.

[00:46:29]If there was something that you could say to the young guns that are marketing and say this is what we need to bring back or do, do you have any ideas of what we could do?

[00:46:41]>> Well, I this day and age there's not not much you can do as far as that go. I mean, they can't get the crowds because of the simo casting. Everybody can watch the race from home and gamble from home.

[00:46:51]Don't have to be at the track. Back when I was racing in the Detroit area, uh those gamblers, uh they were the track every night of the week >> and they knew the horses and I could look up and then didn't think I really had a good chance. But look, if I was three to one, I knew they were betting on me and I had a chance to win. The gamblers told you when you were had the best horse.

[00:47:14]>> They just automatically knew.

[00:47:16]>> Yeah. And I I think, you know, if you're not born into it these days, uh that the days of people jumping the fence at Roosevelt and Brandy Wine >> Yeah.

[00:47:27]>> are gone.

[00:47:28]>> They're over. Yes.

[00:47:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we've got to figure out a new way to educate and market and all that.

[00:47:37]>> It sounds like Yeah. No, with the internet the way it is now, it's it's probably never going to be the same.

[00:47:44]>> Yeah.

[00:47:46]Well, Listen, before we wrap up, Roy, do you have any last quick questions before we wrap up?

[00:47:53]>> No, no quick questions, but uh Chuck, uh thanks for joining us. I mean, it's been, you know, I've looked up to you for years, and uh all I can say is thank you for for joining us.

[00:48:04]>> Well, thank you for having me. Believe me, it's enjoyable.

[00:48:09]>> Brings back old memories.

[00:48:11]>> Good. Chuck, by any chance, are you a coffee drinker? I drink coffee. Sure.

[00:48:17]>> Okay. Well, we are so so fortunate that Cow Puncher Coffee has sponsored and partnered with us to run this podcast.

[00:48:26]We're very very thankful for them. Um, if you don't mind, producer Brett, let's throw in the Cow Puncher commercial really quick and then we'll come back to Chuck and have a quick wrap up.

[00:48:39]>> Thank you to our great sponsor, Cowpuncher Coffee. Spur the day. It isn't just a cup. It's a kick in the saddle. Bold, smooth, and built for early mornings and long [music] days. It fuels the kind of determination that gets work done. Rich flavor without the bitterness. Strong enough for the arena, smooth enough for the porch. [music] Find it at cowpuncher coffee.com.

[00:49:04]>> So, Chuck, I originally lived in originally from Pennsylvania, now live in Texas. Cowpuncher coffee is from Texas that So, we're gonna we're gonna send you some.

[00:49:15]>> Okay, very good.

[00:49:17]>> We'll send you some. Okay, before we let you go, we love asking just really simple, silly questions just so people get to know all of us a little bit better. It's just called Quickfire.

[00:49:29]Don't think about it too hard. They're not that important. You okay with us doing this?

[00:49:33]>> Yep.

[00:49:34]>> Okay. Your favorite movie?

[00:49:38]One of Tom Hanks when he was caught on island. What the hell was it called? By himself.

[00:49:45]>> Is it Castaway?

[00:49:46]>> Yes. I love that movie. Yes.

[00:49:49]>> Um what what do you listen to in the car or in the barn? Do you like what is >> 60s? Mostly 60s. Yes.

[00:49:58]>> Very loud.

[00:49:58]>> Yeah. Very loud. Yeah.

[00:50:02]>> Your favorite cocktail?

[00:50:05]probably uh VO and Manhattan.

[00:50:10]>> Are you an early bird or a night owl?

[00:50:14]>> Not no nothing at night. No, I No.

[00:50:20]>> Who's your biggest cheerleader?

[00:50:23]>> My family, I guess.

[00:50:25]>> And Kelly. [laughter] >> Well, we want to thank a big shout out.

[00:50:30]Thank you, Kelly, for all your help.

[00:50:32]>> [laughter] >> Um, who is your toughest critic? Or maybe even was your toughest critic back then.

[00:50:38]>> Steve Jones. He's the worst. [laughter] >> Yeah, he's criticizing me every day.

[00:50:45]>> He finds some race that I lost and sends me the video of it. [laughter] >> Listen, this >> this does not surprise me even on.

[00:50:58]>> Jonesy, we're coming for you next. start criticizing him. Uh, what is your biggest pet peeve?

[00:51:08]>> Shoot. I don't know. I don't have too many really.

[00:51:12]>> In the bar.

[00:51:12]>> What is your Oh, go ahead.

[00:51:15]>> Taking not taking temperatures and not picking up their feet to look for shoes.

[00:51:19]>> Yes.

[00:51:20]>> Take their temperatures every morning and check for shoes.

[00:51:24]>> I like it.

[00:51:25]>> What was your last impulse purchase?

[00:51:31]The other the horse I bought last was a $20,000 uh Captain Corey that we bought from the Stoas family who I had uh what the hell was his name? Uh >> dog lucky the >> Yeah, dog lucky. They had the first file of the mayor and he's now the 13th and uh I really like that. I didn't get seen. I have Steve Elliot at the sale.

[00:51:54]He looked him up or looked at him and he bought him for me for $18,000. So, I have high hopes on him. Yes.

[00:52:02]>> And he's a two-year-old this year.

[00:52:04]>> Yep. Yeah. I'm training very good.

[00:52:06]>> What was his name again?

[00:52:08]>> Now it's called uh >> Captain Chuck.

[00:52:10]>> Captain Chuck. Yes.

[00:52:13]>> I'm here for it. All gonna be heading to the track this year to watch for his two-year-old Captain Chuck's debut.

[00:52:21]>> That's him. Yes.

[00:52:23]>> Who's gonna Who's gonna train him for you when he comes north?

[00:52:26]>> I'm not sure. I've got four different stallions, so I'm not sure where I'm standing. One's New York, one's Jersey, and two Pennsylvania.

[00:52:35]>> Okay.

[00:52:35]>> So, >> name one famous person that you would like to meet.

[00:52:46]>> Oh, what's this? What's the singer name that I went seen?

[00:52:50]>> Carrie Underwood.

[00:52:51]>> Carrie Underwood.

[00:52:52]>> Yeah, I want to meet her, too.

[00:52:54]>> [laughter] >> She was I went and saw her live. She was great.

[00:52:59]>> Oh, man. I love it. I love it. Well, check. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:53:05]We really, really appreciate you.

[00:53:07]>> It's my pleasure.

[00:53:09]>> That was another episode of Under the Lights with Ash and Roy. Thank [music] you to the sponsors and Cowpuncher Coffee for this episode. Whether you're headed home from the arena or just getting your day started, we're glad you spent some time [music] with us. around here. It's all about the stories behind the grind. We want you to be part of the story, too. So, comment, [music] connect, and follow right here on this platform. And don't miss a hoof beatat.

[00:53:32]Wherever life's got you riding, stay [music] tough, stay true, and we'll meet you right back here next time under the lights with Ash and